Explain to me why Westbrook is ranked so high to most people

[scm5]

I view him as a Top 5 PG, but not a Top 5 player in the league:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317415

So many people listed Westbrook as one of their Top 5 players and I really don't understand why.

He's averaging 22/5/5 with 2spg and 5 TO/gm and scoring at below 50% TS. For reference, Melo is considered a chucker and having a trash season when he's scoring 51% TS this season. Melo is also considered a chucker despite having a career average of 45.5% FG while Westbrook has only topped that mark one time in his career at 45.7%.
NOTE: Not saying Melo is better, just wondering why Melo is getting so much blame for shooting at such low percentages when Westbrook is doing worse and being named a Top 5 Player in the league.

This season, there are so many players that are performing at a higher level than Westbrook, not to mention at a higher level than Westbrook ever has.

Lebron
Durant
CP3
Kevin Love (yes, he's playing very good defense this year)
Paul George
Anthony Davis
Stephen Curry
Tony Parker

Hell, don't crucify me for this, but Afflalo is having a better season than Westbrook. I'm not saying Afflalo is better by any means, but Westbrook's season is subpar.

I just don't understand what Westbrook has done or shown this season to be a Top 5 player. Top 10, I would understand and not argue because I know how good he can be, but even from last season's performance Lebron, Durant, CP3, Love, Davis, and George are all undisputedly having better seasons.

[DMAVS41]

I view him as a Top 5 PG, but not a Top 5 player in the league:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317415

So many people listed Westbrook as one of their Top 5 players and I really don't understand why.

He's averaging 22/5/5 with 2spg and 5 TO/gm and scoring at below 50% TS. For reference, Melo is considered a chucker and having a trash season when he's scoring 51% TS this season. Melo is also considered a chucker despite having a career average of 45.5% FG while Westbrook has only topped that mark one time in his career at 45.7%.
NOTE: Not saying Melo is better, just wondering why Melo is getting so much blame for shooting at such low percentages when Westbrook is doing worse and being named a Top 5 Player in the league.

This season, there are so many players that are performing at a higher level than Westbrook, not to mention at a higher level than Westbrook ever has.

Lebron
Durant
CP3
Kevin Love (yes, he's playing very good defense this year)
Paul George
Anthony Davis
Stephen Curry
Tony Parker

Hell, don't crucify me for this, but Afflalo is having a better season than Westbrook. I'm not saying Afflalo is better by any means, but Westbrook's season is subpar.

I just don't understand what Westbrook has done or shown this season to be a Top 5 player. Top 10, I would understand and not argue because I know how good he can be, but even from last season's performance Lebron, Durant, CP3, Love, Davis, and George are all undisputedly having better seasons.

I don't understand.

Most people say Westbrook is somewhere between the 5th and 10th best player in the league. You only list 8 players better. And don't think Parker and Curry have been for sure better so far.

[scm5]

I don't understand.

Most people say Westbrook is somewhere between the 5th and 10th best player in the league. You only list 8 players better. And don't think Parker and Curry have been for sure better so far.

Budadiii
Roundmound
livinglegend
branslowski

all listed Westbrook on their Top 5, and while 4 posters isn't much, not many posters even bothered ranking.

I agree with a Top 10 ranking, but I see zero justification in a Top 5 ranking.

[TylerOO]

Westbrook is in my top 5. He's a ****ing beast.

[avonbarksdale]

he plays with the leading scorer in the nba, put him on his own team and his numbers will increase

[moe94]

he plays with the leading scorer in the nba, put him on his own team and his numbers will increase
He's not arguing that his production is bad but his efficiency, which would only decrease if he was the number 1 option.

[scm5]

He's not arguing that his production is bad but his efficiency, which would only decrease if he was the number 1 option.

Pretty much this.

His numbers are great, but he's never shot over 53.8% TS and he has taken more FGA than Durant in the past two seasons, almost topping Durant's FGA in 11-12'.

This speaks volumes about his selfishness and basketball IQ. I understand he's a very aggressive player, but damn.

[Mr. Jabbar]

are we talking about GOATbrook here?

[SacJB Shady]

Well he plays with Durant. Look at Dirk and Monta now. If Ellis was playing on a winning Mavs team for several of years, imagine how much higher he'd be ranked.

[moe94]

Well he plays with Durant. Look at Dirk and Monta now. If Ellis was playing on a winning Mavs team for several of years, imagine how much higher he'd be ranked.
He's criminally underrated, regardless.

[bdreason]

Melo gets irrational hate. He's been beasting this year.

Westbrook is a bit overrated IMHO. He plays with the best perimeter scorer in the game, and his efficiency would be much higher if he made smarter choices on the court. I think he's a borderline top 10 player.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Budadiii
Roundmound
livinglegend
branslowski

all listed Westbrook on their Top 5, and while 4 posters isn't much, not many posters even bothered ranking.

I agree with a Top 10 ranking, but I see zero justification in a Top 5 ranking.

My post:


LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Chris Paul
Anthony Davis/Paul George/Kevin Love/Westbrook/Curry

Which puts him in the 4 - 8 range. He impacts the game more than his stats. Thunder need his ability to penetrate and create open looks for his teammates. They look awful without him.

[DMAVS41]

Budadiii
Roundmound
livinglegend
branslowski

all listed Westbrook on their Top 5, and while 4 posters isn't much, not many posters even bothered ranking.

I agree with a Top 10 ranking, but I see zero justification in a Top 5 ranking.


Believe me, I love to argue with Brans, but he's on point here. And I doubt he'd be claiming that Westbrook is top 5 for sure based on his play this year either. He doesn't do dumb shit like that.

But what is wrong with putting him in the top 5? What the **** has kevin love done in his career to say he's clearly better than Westbrook? Or Davis...and I love Davis. Now because he's had 10 great games he's better than Westbrook for sure?

Honestly...after Lebron and Durant...Westbrook has an argument for the 3rd best player in the league. I wouldn't put him there, but I don't think it's crazy at all. He's ****ing awesome...

Assuming we are talking about Westbrook as a player overall and not just using these 10 games...I see no reason to claim that the likes of George, Love, and Davis are better than him. It's certainly debatable, but to claim that a guy like Kevin Love is for sure better than Westbrook seems silly at best.

Thus you have him somewhere between 4 and 10 or whatever if you assume CP3 is clearly better (which is fine)

So I don't understand your issue at all...

[RoTM]

No way hes over Bron, Cp3, Durant, George, love, and he could easily rank behind all of

in no particular order
Aldridge
Blake
Rose
Harden
Carmelo
Duncan
Wade
Bosh
Parker
Anthony Davis
Dwight
Mark Gasol
Curry
Lopez
Horford
Hibbert
when it comes to total impact

[TylerOO]

No way hes over Bron, Cp3, Durant, George, love, and he could easily rank behind all of

in no particular order
Aldridge
Blake
Rose
Harden
Carmelo
Duncan
Wade
Bosh
Parker
Anthony Davis
Dwight
Mark Gasol
Curry
Lopez
Horford
Hibbert
when it comes to total impact

:roll: :roll: :roll: :rolleyes:

[Fudge]

No way hes over Bron, Cp3, Durant, George, love, and he could easily rank behind all of

in no particular order
Aldridge
Blake
Rose
Harden
Carmelo
Duncan
Wade
Bosh
Parker
Anthony Davis
Dwight
Mark Gasol
Curry
Lopez
Horford
Hibbert
when it comes to total impact
:oldlol:

[moe94]

No way hes over Bron, Cp3, Durant, George, love, and he could easily rank behind all of

in no particular order
Aldridge
Blake
Rose
Harden
Carmelo
Duncan
Wade
Bosh
Parker
Anthony Davis
Dwight
Mark Gasol
Curry
Lopez
Horford
Hibbert
when it comes to total impact
:facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron
CP3
Durant

Then a case can be made for virtually anyone to be perfectly honest. Those three are the best players in the league though.

[nathanjizzle]

No way hes over Bron, Cp3, Durant, George, love, and he could easily rank behind all of

in no particular order
Aldridge
Blake
Rose
Harden
Carmelo
Duncan
Wade
Bosh
Parker
Anthony Davis
Dwight
Mark Gasol
Curry
Lopez
Horford
Hibbert
when it comes to total impact

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Edit: I needed to add one more rofl smiley.

[DMAVS41]

LeBron
CP3
Durant

Then a case can be made for virtually anyone to be perfectly honest. Those three are the best players in the league though.

This.

[BlazerRed]

No way hes over Bron, Cp3, Durant, George, love, and he could easily rank behind all of

in no particular order
Aldridge
Blake
Rose
Harden
Carmelo
Duncan
Wade
Bosh
Parker
Anthony Davis
Dwight
Mark Gasol
Curry
Lopez
Horford
Hibbert
when it comes to total impact

Excuse me sir, but you're a ****ing idiot.

EDIT: Also negged for stupidity.

[Bobby13]

Westbrook is the best PG in the league. Might not be a top five player overall, since point guards don't really make as big of an impact as some of the dynamic wings in the league (LBJ, Durant, George).

[RoTM]

Excuse me sir, but you're a ****ing idiot.

EDIT: Also negged for stupidity.

If you you can snag a low efficiency all star scoring guard over an all star two way big you always go for it.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

LeBron
CP3
Durant

Then a case can be made for virtually anyone to be perfectly honest. Those three are the best players in the league though.
Very true, id say if those 3 dont make up your current top 3 youre somewhat biased.
Everyones rankings come down to your own perspective on what you look for in an elite player. Westbrook still lack bbiq and correct decision making, i remember game 4 of the finals when he had that 40 point game then he ****ed up by fouling after the tip ball near the end of the game. That sort of thing plus he shouldnt be taking as many/more shots than kd

[LakersDaBEst]

Goatbrook is only behind Godbe

[Young X]

Tony Choker isn't better than Westbrook.

[DirkNowitzki41]

kevin love is still getting overrated. :facepalm

[Genaro]

He isn't himself yet, he just got back and didn't have pre season. So the turnovers will likely drop.

FG% is a highly overrated stat on this board. Westbrook's penetration is what makes the Thunder so dangerous, even when he misses. Thunder doesn't have enought firepower to go anywhere without his points.

In my top 5 he is 5th behind Lebron, Durant, CP3 and Kobe.

[scm5]

Believe me, I love to argue with Brans, but he's on point here. And I doubt he'd be claiming that Westbrook is top 5 for sure based on his play this year either. He doesn't do dumb shit like that.

But what is wrong with putting him in the top 5? What the **** has kevin love done in his career to say he's clearly better than Westbrook? Or Davis...and I love Davis. Now because he's had 10 great games he's better than Westbrook for sure?

Honestly...after Lebron and Durant...Westbrook has an argument for the 3rd best player in the league. I wouldn't put him there, but I don't think it's crazy at all. He's ****ing awesome...

Assuming we are talking about Westbrook as a player overall and not just using these 10 games...I see no reason to claim that the likes of George, Love, and Davis are better than him. It's certainly debatable, but to claim that a guy like Kevin Love is for sure better than Westbrook seems silly at best.

Thus you have him somewhere between 4 and 10 or whatever if you assume CP3 is clearly better (which is fine)

So I don't understand your issue at all...

Westbrook tore his meniscus and had two surgeries to fix it.

This is the same injury that slowed CP3 from a 23/6/11 on 60% TS 2.5 spg and only 3.0 TO/gm to what he is today. He's still great, but nothing close to what he was in 09'.

Westbrook has come back pretty strong, but he's not even close to the player he was last season statistically.

Let's break down Westbrook last season:
23.2ppg at 43.8 FG 32.3% 3FG 80% FTand 53.8 TS%

League Average in TS%: 53.6%
Westbrook beat this by .2%, hardly a feat for a "superstar".

League Average in FG%: 45.3
Westbrook hit his shots at 1.5% lower than the league average.

League Average in 3 point percentage: 35.9%
Westbrook hit his 3's at 3.6% lower than the league average.

League average in FT%: 75.3%
Westbrook's one good trait is that he gets to the line often and converts FT's at higher than league average. He got to the line 7 times per game.

So, he scored at roughly the same efficiency as the league average. Yet, he takes more FGA/gm than Durant. At some point you have to wonder when low basketball IQ is a detriment. I realize he's an asset to the Thunder and they're worse off without him, but that's NOT AN EXCUSE TO BE DUMB.

You kind of have to imagine how much easier life would be for Durant if he had Steph Curry on his team instead of Westbrook.

Stephen Curry

Curry provides much more spacing, only takes 15.5 FGA/gm and still scores 20ppg. He's a much better and more willing passer than Westbrook as well. Curry gets doubled all the way out past the 3 point line, no team would do that to Westbrook.

Here's an article with some statistics behind what Curry does beyond his already incredible statistics:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/64180/steph-curry-giving-andre-iguodala-a-shot

Also, in the two games Curry has been out, Klay has shot 1-5 and 2-7 from 3. It might all be coincidence, but eye test and statistics-wise, not likely. Curry makes the game much easier for everyone else on the court because of his shooting ability and his playmaking.

Kevin Love

Then, you take Kevin Love. He was criticized early in his career for not playing defense, but has since put in the effort on defense and has actually been good at it. If you watch any of the games, the effort is definitely there and the statistics back it up. Here's an article about it:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24181577/wolves-kevin-love-is-focused-like-weve-never-seen-him-before

Keep in mind, this guy is averaging 25/13/5 on 59% TS and it's nothing new to him. This is what he does. He's actually winning now too because he has a supporting cast around him. What else can be said about him? I don't see any argument over him for Westbrook.

I won't go into Davis because it'll be dismissed by everyone who thinks it's too early. I don't think it's too early because we've seen that he's capable of playing like this last season, but he was limited in minutes.

I see absolutely no arguments over Lebron, Durant, CP3, Curry, and Love for Westbrook post-injury. I realize you all want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but even at least years levels I don't see an argument for him over these 5.

Like I said before, the same injury slowed down CP3 a lot. The same injury (although more severe) ended Roy's career. And we know it had to be pretty serious, he needed a second procedure in the offseason.

Of course, this is all just my opinion.

[mjokc]

No way hes over Bron, Cp3, Durant, George, love, and he could easily rank behind all of

in no particular order
Aldridge
Blake
Rose
Harden
Carmelo
Duncan
Wade
Bosh
Parker
Anthony Davis
Dwight
Mark Gasol
Curry
Lopez
Horford
Hibbert
when it comes to total impact

http://i.imgur.com/DwzQcgu.gif

[scm5]

kevin love is still getting overrated. :facepalm

What's funny is that this is coming from a Dirk fan. Dirk is not known for playing defense and although he's probably a better defender than Love, it's not likely by any significant margin.

[Go Getter]

He's not arguing that his production is bad but his efficiency, which would only decrease if he was the number 1 option.
Thank you!

[RoTM]

http://i.imgur.com/DwzQcgu.gif

Whose wrong on there bruh, I didn't even remember to add Kobe. Top five not even a franchise player what a weak era.

[BGriffin's Dad]

you could technically rank him top 1.. toss up between him and rose

Top 5 PGs
Chris Paul
Tony Parker
Deron Williams
Kyrie Irving
Rajon Rondo

Top 5 SGs masquerading as PGs
Russell Westbrook
Derrick Rose
Stephen Curry
Jrue Holiday
John Wall

[scm5]

All these replies in this thread about how Curry and Love are overrated.

Yet...

They're the ones that have been able to put up consistently great seasons and numbers. They're the ones whose numbers back up their ranking. They're the ones who score at an efficiency much higher than league average.

They're also the ones that didn't just come back from a serious injury, one that slowed down cp3 and ended roy's career.

They're not the ones that are playing with the second best player in the NBA and probably the best scorer (Lebron def has quite the argument) in the NBA.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

you could technically rank him top 1.. toss up between him and rose

Top 5 PGs
Chris Paul
Tony Parker
Deron Williams
Kyrie Irving
Rajon Rondo

Top 5 SGs masquerading as PGs
Russell Westbrook
Derrick Rose
Stephen Curry
Jrue Holiday
John Wall
John wall's playmaking has been pretty impressive this year, which is the primary function of a pg

[moe94]

you could technically rank him top 1.. toss up between him and rose

Top 5 PGs
Chris Paul
Tony Parker
Deron Williams
Kyrie Irving
Rajon Rondo

Top 5 SGs masquerading as PGs
Russell Westbrook
Derrick Rose
Stephen Curry
Jrue Holiday
John Wall

Is this a joke because Kyrie is clearly the most shooting guard of all the point guards. He has almost no playmaking ability and is known almost purely for his scoring.

[DMAVS41]

Westbrook tore his meniscus and had two surgeries to fix it.

This is the same injury that slowed CP3 from a 23/6/11 on 60% TS 2.5 spg and only 3.0 TO/gm to what he is today. He's still great, but nothing close to what he was in 09'.

Westbrook has come back pretty strong, but he's not even close to the player he was last season statistically.

Let's break down Westbrook last season:
23.2ppg at 43.8 FG 32.3% 3FG 80% FTand 53.8 TS%

League Average in TS%: 53.6%
Westbrook beat this by .2%, hardly a feat for a "superstar".

League Average in FG%: 45.3
Westbrook hit his shots at 1.5% lower than the league average.

League Average in 3 point percentage: 35.9%
Westbrook hit his 3's at 3.6% lower than the league average.

League average in FT%: 75.3%
Westbrook's one good trait is that he gets to the line often and converts FT's at higher than league average. He got to the line 7 times per game.

So, he scored at roughly the same efficiency as the league average. Yet, he takes more FGA/gm than Durant. At some point you have to wonder when low basketball IQ is a detriment. I realize he's an asset to the Thunder and they're worse off without him, but that's NOT AN EXCUSE TO BE DUMB.

You kind of have to imagine how much easier life would be for Durant if he had Steph Curry on his team instead of Westbrook.

Stephen Curry

Curry provides much more spacing, only takes 15.5 FGA/gm and still scores 20ppg. He's a much better and more willing passer than Westbrook as well. Curry gets doubled all the way out past the 3 point line, no team would do that to Westbrook.

Here's an article with some statistics behind what Curry does beyond his already incredible statistics:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/64180/steph-curry-giving-andre-iguodala-a-shot

Also, in the two games Curry has been out, Klay has shot 1-5 and 2-7 from 3. It might all be coincidence, but eye test and statistics-wise, not likely. Curry makes the game much easier for everyone else on the court because of his shooting ability and his playmaking.

Kevin Love

Then, you take Kevin Love. He was criticized early in his career for not playing defense, but has since put in the effort on defense and has actually been good at it. If you watch any of the games, the effort is definitely there and the statistics back it up. Here's an article about it:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24181577/wolves-kevin-love-is-focused-like-weve-never-seen-him-before

Keep in mind, this guy is averaging 25/13/5 on 59% TS and it's nothing new to him. This is what he does. He's actually winning now too because he has a supporting cast around him. What else can be said about him? I don't see any argument over him for Westbrook.

I won't go into Davis because it'll be dismissed by everyone who thinks it's too early. I don't think it's too early because we've seen that he's capable of playing like this last season, but he was limited in minutes.

I see absolutely no arguments over Lebron, Durant, CP3, Curry, and Love for Westbrook post-injury. I realize you all want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but even at least years levels I don't see an argument for him over these 5.

Like I said before, the same injury slowed down CP3 a lot. The same injury (although more severe) ended Roy's career. And we know it had to be pretty serious, he needed a second procedure in the offseason.

Of course, this is all just my opinion.


If you see no argument for Westbrook over Love and Curry...by all means continue on. It's ultimately just my opinion, but not point in debating if we are that far off. I'd take Westbrook over both of them...and you are saying there is no argument for Westbrook over them.

To each his own.

[andgar923]

I view him as a Top 5 PG, but not a Top 5 player in the league:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317415

So many people listed Westbrook as one of their Top 5 players and I really don't understand why.

He's averaging 22/5/5 with 2spg and 5 TO/gm and scoring at below 50% TS. For reference, Melo is considered a chucker and having a trash season when he's scoring 51% TS this season. Melo is also considered a chucker despite having a career average of 45.5% FG while Westbrook has only topped that mark one time in his career at 45.7%.
NOTE: Not saying Melo is better, just wondering why Melo is getting so much blame for shooting at such low percentages when Westbrook is doing worse and being named a Top 5 Player in the league.

This season, there are so many players that are performing at a higher level than Westbrook, not to mention at a higher level than Westbrook ever has.

Lebron
Durant
CP3
Kevin Love (yes, he's playing very good defense this year)
Paul George
Anthony Davis
Stephen Curry
Tony Parker

Hell, don't crucify me for this, but Afflalo is having a better season than Westbrook. I'm not saying Afflalo is better by any means, but Westbrook's season is subpar.

I just don't understand what Westbrook has done or shown this season to be a Top 5 player. Top 10, I would understand and not argue because I know how good he can be, but even from last season's performance Lebron, Durant, CP3, Love, Davis, and George are all undisputedly having better seasons.

There's a lot of idiots that's why.

[scm5]

If you see no argument for Westbrook over Love and Curry...by all means continue on. It's ultimately just my opinion, but not point in debating if we are that far off. I'd take Westbrook over both of them...and you are saying there is no argument for Westbrook over them.

To each his own.

I realize that, I'm just asking for an explanation as to why. Help me see why.

All I'm getting from you guys are:

"The Thunder look awful without him" - Roundmound.
- no shit, he's their second best player and a Top 10 player in the league.

"What the **** has kevin love done in his career to say he's clearly better than Westbrook?" - DMAVS41
He's put up impressive as hell stats on a horrible team. This season they're actually winning and his team isn't even all that good.

I've put out my reasons as to why I think Curry and Love deserve spots over him. I don't even have Curry in my Top 5, I believe Davis is better and more impactful because of his defense. Of course, this is based on what the season has shown me so far, but I don't think it's a fluke. He's an amazing defender and even if he were putting up 15/9/1 but still having the same effect defensively, I would put him above Curry, and thus Westbrook.

Why exactly is Westbrook better than these players? The stats do not back it up. He has low basketball IQ. He just got back from an injury that is pretty serious and hasn't performed all that well. There is no indication that he will return to even his former level. You're giving Westbrook the benefit of the doubt despite both Curry and Love improving and statistics being out on the impact they have on the court.

I really don't understand.

[BlazerRed]

If you you can snag a low efficiency all star scoring guard over an all star two way big you always go for it.
You clearly don't watch the Thunder and/or basketball. It's not just about his efficiency, it's about what he does for the team.

[scm5]

You clearly don't watch the Thunder and/or basketball. It's not just about his efficiency, it's about what he does for the team.

Wow, seriously? No shit the Thunder missed him, he's not trash and I'm not calling him trash.

If you all of a sudden inserted Stephen Curry to OKC's lineup while Westbrook is out, guess what happens?

Go on... guess.

[Graviton]

I don't think he has been Top 5 this season so far, but he is definitely in that range ability wise. He had same crappy start last year, but post all-star break he was beasting and had 24/6/5 on 46% shooting. Gotta remember before the playoffs is when everyone shows up.

It's hard to explain his impact if you don't watch OKC games. Just him being on the court makes everyone's job around him easier. Suddenly having the worst starter in the league in Perkins isn't a huge deal, scrub Ibaka becomes useful, Durant never gets double teamed and has wide open jumpers every time Russ penetrates. And the best part about Westbrook is the fact he plays hard every game on both ends of the floor, he does indeed chuck at times but he doesn't do it out of selfishness but because he wants to help his team, lot of times I remember the team playing hot potato with the ball like scared children, Durant gets heavily denied and Westbrook has to throw up a retarded shot. Only time he chucks badly is when he runs down the court and pulls up a mid range jumper with 21 seconds on the clock, Wade does this at times too.

Though his efficiency isn't amazing, his impact on winning games obviously is more important. Not as if a PG is SUPPOSED to shoot over 50% anyway. His PPS stats aren't actually bad either, only if you look at his FG% without any context does it actually look bad, and FG% is a terrible stat either way since it doesn't account for a dozen other factors.

And there is a reason he takes more shots than Durant, it's because he can get those shots. Durant has issues with physical defenders denying him and can't shake them off to even receive the ball. Have you seen Durant trying to handle the ball more and do his Lebron impression? He racks up turnovers even more and forces passes, or fumbles the ball and gets it stolen. His actual ball security is not really good. Westbrook is the only legit ball handler on OKC, and when you are the only one that can set up plays, attack and not turn it over 10 times you have more available shots. It's not like Durant is wide open and Westbrook is taking those opportunities himself. You must remember there are 2 useless players on the court at all times at SG and C position for OKC. So if nobody is getting double teamed and the paint is locked down, and Durant is heavily denied, their best shot is a Westbrook chuck.

The OKC system as a whole is responsible, their only plays are "Give the ball to Durant/Westbrook and stand around watching". It's still shocking how they don't even implement any advanced body/ball movement along with multiple screens to get quality shots. Watching the Spurs/Heat and then watching OKC shows you the difference between elite championship contenders and 2 man teams.

[Graviton]

Wow, seriously? No shit the Thunder missed him, he's not trash and I'm not calling him trash.

If you all of a sudden inserted Stephen Curry to OKC's lineup while Westbrook is out, guess what happens?

Go on... guess.
Probably they get worse, Curry can't attack the defense and open up the floor for everyone else. He also can't play defense and rebound at same level as Westbrook. Their shooting may get better but you can't rely on 3 point shooting as a playoff team. OKC works on attacking the basket and getting free throws throughout the game, Curry isn't going to help any of that. Warriors right now are perfectly build for Curry, OKC isn't.

And I would LOVE to see how successful Curry would be when he has to pass to Sefalosha, Ibaka, Fisher and Perkins instead of Lee, Bogut, Klay and Iggy. Warriors have people that can catch and finish AND shoot lights out. OKC only has Durant and he doesn't really need to be set up since he creates his own offense.

[scm5]

Probably they get worse, Curry can't attack the defense and open up the floor for everyone else. He also can't play defense and rebound at same level as Westbrook. Their shooting may get better but you can't rely on 3 point shooting as a playoff team. OKC works on attacking the basket and getting free throws throughout the game, Curry isn't going to help any of that. Warriors right now are perfectly build for Curry, OKC isn't.

And I would LOVE to see how successful Curry would be when he has to pass to Sefalosha, Ibaka, Fisher and Perkins instead of Lee, Bogut, Klay and Iggy. Warriors have people that can catch and finish AND shoot lights out. OKC only has Durant and he doesn't really need to be set up since he creates his own offense.

You somehow forgot about Kevin Martin.

Westbrook last season had some pretty amazing shooters to work with.

Martin and Durant are at least as good a combo (im being generous on your end, they're a much better duo) on the perimeter as Klay and Iggy. Then you have Ibaka's midrange game which was incredible last season:

47% from 3-9 feet
58% from 10-15 feet
47% from 16-23 feet

Yet, somehow Curry would make them worse.

[Graviton]

You somehow forgot about Kevin Martin.

Westbrook last season had some pretty amazing shooters to work with.

Martin and Durant are at least as good a combo (im being generous on your end, they're a much better duo) on the perimeter as Klay and Iggy. Then you have Ibaka's midrange game which was incredible last season:

47% from 3-9 feet
58% from 10-15 feet
47% from 16-23 feet

Yet, somehow Curry would make them worse.
You also forget how inconsistent both Ibaka and Martin were, the fact the numbers are so good is maybe because they were WIDE OPEN a lot of times thanks to Durant/Westbrook. Without Westbrook attacking the paint you think they would be? You think Curry sitting on 3 point line is going to keep them that efficient? Not that those numbers could tell you how frustrated me and other OKC fans were in game threads when Martin and Ibaka disappeared in moments of need. They are not good by themselves, Westbrook MAKES them look good. Could you bring me the playoff numbers of those 2 without Westbrook please? Thanks.

I would gladly trade Ibaka and Martin for Klay/Iggy and Lee.

I live in the Bay, I watch all the Warrior games, I know how good they are. But unlike you I also watch almost all the OKC games and I know the strengths and weaknesses of the team. Warriors right now are a better TEAM than OKC, you trying to imply Curry would be better off on OKC is ridiculous.

[scm5]

Though his efficiency isn't amazing, his impact on winning games obviously is more important. Not as if a PG is SUPPOSED to shoot over 50% anyway. His PPS stats aren't actually bad either, only if you look at his FG% without any context does it actually look bad, and FG% is a terrible stat either way since it doesn't account for a dozen other factors.


PPS is an extremely flawed stat. Along to those FGA, Westbrook gets about 7 FTA/gm. Let's just call that 3 FGA's...

That actually comes out to 21.6 possessions for 21.6 points.

FTA's use up possessions as well.

[Graviton]

PPS is an extremely flawed stat. Along to those FGA, Westbrook gets about 7 FTA/gm. Let's just call that 3 FGA's...

That actually comes out to 21.6 possessions for 21.6 points.

FTA's use up possessions as well.
FTAs are not a possession are you ****in serious? You get free throws when someone ****s up your successful possession. There is a reason why when someone gets fouled they don't count the shot against the player. How about lets use stats the way they were supposed to be used and not your own idiotic rules. :oldlol:

Using your method would mean Durant only scores 29 points on 26 FGAs...:roll:

[russwest0]

He's not arguing that his production is bad but his efficiency, which would only decrease if he was the number 1 option.

Here we go with the "efficency" nonsense.

If Westbrook just stopped shooting the 3s at the buzzer that he does like 1-2 times each game, his efficency would go up a ton. He would of shot like 47-48% last year.

Dude creates tons of offense for himself making it easy for others. He's always in attack mode unlike CP3 who disappears often. He hardly ever gets outplayed by the man across him, he's a beast on the glass, he sets the tone for our defense. And aside from going down from a punk move last year he never misses games. He came back a month earlier than expected, he's not like ***** ass Rose.

Dude is a borderline top 5 player and the best PG in the league.

[scm5]

FTAs are not a possession are you ****in serious? You get free throws when someone ****s up your successful possession. There is a reason why when someone gets fouled they don't count the shot against the player. How about lets use stats the way they were supposed to be used and not your own idiotic rules. :oldlol:

Using your method would mean Durant only scores 29 points on 26 FGAs...:roll:

Wait, so when someone fouls you and you take your free throw attempts, do you get your possession back or is it used up?

:biggums:

[Fudge]

Honestly, man...

It's because



























































Russell Westbrook.

[Graviton]

Wait, so when someone fouls you and you take your free throw attempts, do you get your possession back or is it used up?

:biggums:
It's not counted as a possession, free throws are just that, A FREE THROW. Do you count 2 technical fouls as a possession? Do you not see how retarded your idea is? By your logic Durant would be a poor scorer since he would be averaging 29 points on 26 FGAs. :oldlol:

The fact you don't comprehend how idiotic your statement was is just sad.

[scm5]

It's not counted as a possession, free throws are just that, A FREE THROW. Do you count 2 technical fouls as a possession? Do you not see how retarded your idea is? By your logic Durant would be a poor scorer since he would be averaging 29 points on 26 FGAs. :oldlol:

The fact you don't comprehend how idiotic your statement was is just sad.

I'm responding to you to try and help you understand.

Towards the end of close games, do you understand why teams foul Deandre Jordan to get them to go to the free throw line?

It's because after their free throws, possession changes to the other team. Deandre Jordan is a career 42% free throw shooter. For that possession, on average, DJ will put up .84 points.

Do you understand? Am I wasting my time or getting trolled? I seriously can't tell.

[Graviton]

I'm responding to you to try and help you understand.

Towards the end of close games, do you understand why teams foul Deandre Jordan to get them to go to the free throw line?

It's because after their free throws, possession changes to the other team. Deandre Jordan is a career 42% free throw shooter. For that possession, on average, DJ will put up .84 points.

Do you understand? Am I wasting my time or getting trolled? I seriously can't tell.
What does that have to do with NBA's definition of a possession? Free throws ARE NOT POSSESSIONS. The fact the possession switches after the free throws is completely irrelevant to the statements you made, you are trying to deflect the argument to avoid facing your stupidity.

You wanted to count free throw attempts as FGAs, NO ONE DOES THAT. There is a reason why the NBA does not count the shot attempts that were fouled as an actual shot attempt. Free throws are separate from actual shots and are just that, free points you get a chance to score. The possession switches to the opposing team but you are not wasting any possessions since you didn't attempt any, the opponent just gave you a chance at free points. That's it. Hence why the shots are not counted against the players. The fact Deandre Jordan is a terrible free throw shooter and hurts his team has nothing to do with you trying to justify free throw attempts as possessions. The NBA does not do it, nor does anyone else with half a brain.

Do you understand the concept or am I wasting time here?

[ralph_i_el]

Budadiii
Roundmound
livinglegend
branslowski

all listed Westbrook on their Top 5, and while 4 posters isn't much, not many posters even bothered ranking.

I agree with a Top 10 ranking, but I see zero justification in a Top 5 ranking.

he hasn't shot well coming off of the injury this season. Last year I though he was top 5. Maybe I was just hypnotized by all of his freakish plays

[scm5]

What does that have to do with NBA's definition of a possession? Free throws ARE NOT POSSESSIONS. The fact the possession switches after the free throws is completely irrelevant to the statements you made, you are trying to deflect the argument to avoid facing your stupidity.

You wanted to count free throw attempts as FGAs, NO ONE DOES THAT. There is a reason why the NBA does not count the shot attempts that were fouled as an actual shot attempt. Free throws are separate from actual shots and are just that, free points you get a chance to score. The possession switches to the opposing team but you are not wasting any possessions since you didn't attempt any, the opponent just gave you a chance at free points. That's it. Hence why the shots are not counted against the players. The fact Deandre Jordan is a terrible free throw shooter and hurts his team has nothing to do with you trying to justify free throw attempts as possessions. The NBA does not do it, nor does anyone else with half a brain.

Do you understand the concept or am I wasting time here?

http://www.nba.com/celtics/stats/inside-the-numbers/points-per-possession-pop-up.html

Oh, okay. The NBA must have it all wrong.

EDIT: lol, I can't believe I got negged by this idiot not understanding you lose a possession when you're fouled and take free throws. It's a simple concept.

[Graviton]

http://www.nba.com/celtics/stats/inside-the-numbers/points-per-possession-pop-up.html

Oh, okay. The NBA must have it all wrong.

EDIT: lol, I can't believe I got negged by this idiot not understanding you lose a possession when you're fouled and take free throws. It's a simple concept.
As you can see they don't use raw FTA and add it to FGA to get their formula, it's much more complex. YOU wanted to ADD FTA to FGA to make up your own ridiculous criteria. Hence why your numbers were retarded, like Durant averaging 29 points on 26 FGA, which is NOT what he would be averaging based on actual points per possession.

You got negged for not understanding the difference, you lose a possession when you are fouled, but THOSE FREE THROWS THEMSELVES ARE NOT A POSSESSION. That was my point. The free throws are separate and must be calculated differently like it was done in your link.

I like how you did not even address your own points and mistakes, like Durants stats based on the logic you used for Westbrook. But please do keep deflecting and changing the subject. 1st it was just adding FTA to FGA, now somehow it's the fact that you lose a possession when you are fouled. Did you even have an actual point or were you talking outta your ass the whole time.

[scm5]

As you can see they don't use raw FTA and add it to FGA to get their formula, it's much more complex. YOU wanted to ADD FTA to FGA to make up your own ridiculous criteria. Hence why your numbers were retarded, like Durant averaging 29 points on 26 FGA, which is NOT what he would be averaging based on actual points per possession.

You got negged for not understanding the difference, you lose a possession when you are fouled, but THOSE FREE THROWS THEMSELVES ARE NOT A POSSESSION. That was my point. The free throws are separate and must be calculated differently like it was done in your link.

I like how you did not even address your own points and mistakes, like Durants stats based on the logic you used for Westbrook. But please do keep deflecting and changing the subject. 1st it was just adding FTA to FGA, now somehow it's the fact that you lose a possession when you are fouled. Did you even have an actual point or were you talking outta your ass the whole time.

Here, let me quote you:



The possession switches to the opposing team but you are not wasting any possessions since you didn't attempt any, the opponent just gave you a chance at free points. That's it.

So you aren't wasting a possession when Deandre Jordan is fouled at the end of a game, bricks two free throws and the opposing team has the ball?

Stop trying to change your argument, it was quite clear you didn't understand.

[ralph_i_el]

As you can see they don't use raw FTA and add it to FGA to get their formula, it's much more complex. YOU wanted to ADD FTA to FGA to make up your own ridiculous criteria. Hence why your numbers were retarded, like Durant averaging 29 points on 26 FGA, which is NOT what he would be averaging based on actual points per possession.

You got negged for not understanding the difference, you lose a possession when you are fouled, but THOSE FREE THROWS THEMSELVES ARE NOT A POSSESSION. That was my point. The free throws are separate and must be calculated differently like it was done in your link.

I like how you did not even address your own points and mistakes, like Durants stats based on the logic you used for Westbrook. But please do keep deflecting and changing the subject. 1st it was just adding FTA to FGA, now somehow it's the fact that you lose a possession when you are fouled. Did you even have an actual point or were you talking outta your ass the whole time.

cut your losses man you look like a fool. He was just approximating.

this is why we use TS% folks

[chazzy]

Graviton's view on FTs/possessions makes my head hurt :lol

[Graviton]

cut your losses man you look like a fool. He was just approximating.

this is why we use TS% folks
He was literally adding free throw attempts into FGA when the formula already added them in a better way. Which brought Durants stats to 29ppg on 26fga, that was my issue.

You can use TS%, or eFG%, or points per possession, he used something totally different.

Either way, my problem was him adding raw FT numbers without any context. The issue of possessions was more complicated, even in his link they said only 43% of free throw attempts end the possession, meaning 57% of the time when it's an and 1 or technical the possession doesn't end. Meaning the majority of the time they don't cost you the possession. And so adding raw free throw attempts is just idiotic.

At least he didn't use FG% I guess.

[imdaman99]

He doesn't shoot more than Durant. Yes he averages more shots than Durant, but he doesn't get the fouls called that Durant does. If someone flops to get to the line, it doesn't count as a shot. How many of those does Durant average every game? 3.7?

Watch the game, instead of obsessing over numbers. Westbrook's the kinda guy that does far more than his numbers tell anyway. He dictates the offense for the Thunder. He offers mismatches that other point guards won't. Reggie Jackson stepped in and did very well for the Thunder in the playoffs after Westbrook went down. But guess what, he didn't dominate Conley Jr like Russ would have, and it was a relatively easy 4-1 series for the Grizz. Tony Allen had energy to play great defense on Durant at the end of those games. He wouldn't have had that if Russ wasn't injured. He would have wore down covering him for a lot of the game. And then boom Durant doesn't wear down himself and he has a much weaker defender on him. And he HITS those shots.

If you want to put 1 guy down to prop up Curry, that's fine. Millions of threads every day doing the same thing with Kobe and Lebron. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

[Straight_Ballin]

He's criminally underrated, regardless.

And so is Kevin Love. Guy is shitting on most of the league and being called stat padder.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's shooting 41% right now. That's terrible. How is Westbrook underrated?

And people give Iverson, Rose, and other low efficiency / high volume scorers shit if they aren't 45% or over, and they were solo offensive creators on their team with defenses stacked to stop just them.

Double standards much from Westbrook's equally retarded fan base?

None of those other guys mentioned played with another offensive player better than themselves either as the focus of the defense, or just distracting team defenses. Durant is arguably one of the best shooters, and scorers in the league. Even if he gets way too many free throws, and might be a little over hyped.

Westbrook is definitely overrated on ISH. That's for certain. I don't understand why he isn't shooting 50% playing along side Durant, putting up maybe like 20 ppg, but if he was a true PG his assists numbers on a team like that should be 7 and above easily. Durant is one of the best catch and shoot guys in the league. You could get 4 or 5 dimes a night JUST passing to him standing there on the perimeter.

The problem is Westbrook is dumb, emotional, and makes poor decisions with the rock. He's an emotional leader, a SG playing a position that requires intelligence, rational behavior, no temper tantrums, and have a good feel for the game. Something he doesn't have.

Thus the run full speed like a retard, ugly pull up jumpers he takes in transition, that sometimes I see air ball not even touching the rim. It's mystifyingly stupid on his part. How can a player be that dumb?

But given the state of the league, anything after LeBron, CP3, Durant is arguable. I personally feel Dwyane Wade when motivated, or "healthy" is still the better ball player. Pretty sure right now the way he's playing I'd say Paul George is better too.

Westbrook would be so much better if he had: a jumper, but more importantly sane behavior and a BRAIN. He'd easily be top five if he put it all together given his competitiveness, and athletic ability.

[chazzy]

He was literally adding free throw attempts into FGA when the formula already added them in a better way. Which brought Durants stats to 29ppg on 26fga, that was my issue.

You can use TS%, or eFG%, or points per possession, he used something totally different.

Either way, my problem was him adding raw FT numbers without any context. The issue of possessions was more complicated, even in his link they said only 43% of free throw attempts end the possession, meaning 57% of the time when it's an and 1 or technical the possession doesn't end. Meaning the majority of the time they don't cost you the possession. And so adding raw free throw attempts is just idiotic.

At least he didn't use FG% I guess.
:facepalm

[ralph_i_el]

He's shooting 41% right now. That's terrible. How is Westbrook underrated?

And people give Iverson, Rose, and other low efficiency / high volume scorers shit if they aren't 45% or over, and they were solo offensive creators on their team with defenses stacked to stop just them.

Double standards much from Westbrook's equally retarded fan base?

None of those other guys mentioned played with another offensive player better than themselves either as the focus of the defense, or just distracting team defenses. Durant is arguably one of the best shooters, and scorers in the league. Even if he gets way too many free throws, and might be a little over hyped.

Westbrook is definitely overrated on ISH. That's for certain. I don't understand why he isn't shooting 50% playing along side Durant, putting up maybe like 20 ppg, but if he was a true PG his assists numbers on a team like that should be 7 and above easily. Durant is one of the best catch and shoot guys in the league. You could get 4 or 5 dimes a night JUST passing to him standing there on the perimeter.

The problem is Westbrook is dumb, emotional, and makes poor decisions with the rock. He's an emotional leader, a SG playing a position that requires intelligence, rational behavior, no temper tantrums, and have a good feel for the game. Something he doesn't have.

Thus the run full speed like a retard, ugly pull up jumpers he takes in transition, that sometimes I see air ball not even touching the rim. It's mystifyingly stupid on his part. How can a player be that dumb?

But given the state of the league, anything after LeBron, CP3, Durant is arguable. I personally feel Dwyane Wade when motivated, or "healthy" is still the better ball player. Pretty sure right now the way he's playing I'd say Paul George is better too.

Westbrook would be so much better if he had: a jumper, but more importantly sane behavior and a BRAIN. He'd easily be top five if he put it all together given his competitiveness, and athletic ability.

He's shot poorly this year because of the injury sure, but the rest of your post sounds like you just stepped out of a time machine from 2011

[SHABBA]

He is comfortably top five :confusedshrug:

[imdaman99]

He's shot poorly this year because of the injury sure, but the rest of your post sounds like you just stepped out of a time machine from 2011
Dude is frustrated as hell. And after Rose got hurt last night, he was upset and just had to write a mini Pauk essay explaining how terrible Goatbrook is. Not too much happiness going on in his life :(

Goatbrook will be ready to GOAT again, he is ready to take the throne from CP3 soon :rockon:

[ralph_i_el]

Dude is frustrated as hell. And after Rose got hurt last night, he was upset and just had to write a mini Pauk essay explaining how terrible Goatbrook is. Not too much happiness going on in his life :(

Goatbrook will be ready to GOAT again, he is ready to take the throne from CP3 soon :rockon:

:rockon:
People who haven't watched enough Westbrook sometimes don't fully comprehend how ferocious and athletic he is.

[Meticode]

Westbrook is a great player. The only thing that really hurts him is at times he get's that J.R. Smith mentality and takes ridiculously horrible shots, but that's part of his personality.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

:rockon:
People who haven't watched enough Westbrook sometimes don't fully comprehend how ferocious and athletic he is.
when I saw him in person 3 or so years ago, I was seriously amazed by how fast and athletic he was. Like I couldn't stop thinking about him for weeks. Heterosexually. He instantly became one of my favorite players. That was before all of his bone-headed plays came into the lime light and I started to doubt him. But he plays smarter nowadays, it seems.

[EternalThunder]

when I saw him in person 3 or so years ago, I was seriously amazed by how fast and athletic he was. Like I couldn't stop thinking about him for weeks. Heterosexually. He instantly became one of my favorite players. That was before all of his bone-headed plays came into the lime light and I started to doubt him. But he plays smarter nowadays, it seems.

This is interesting, because I'm also a heterosexual male and I met him last year and that night I had a dream that we were in a room and he he had his d*** out and it was huge. He said "get it wet", and then I woke up. Now every time I see Westbrook on TV, I can't stop watching him.

[LONGTIME]

This is interesting, because I'm also a heterosexual male and I met him last year and that night I had a dream that we were in a room and he he had his d*** out and it was huge. He said "get it wet", and then I woke up. Now every time I see Westbrook on TV, I can't stop watching him.

:biggums:

[KingBeasley08]

This is interesting, because I'm also a heterosexual male and I met him last year and that night I had a dream that we were in a room and he he had his d*** out and it was huge. He said "get it wet", and then I woke up. Now every time I see Westbrook on TV, I can't stop watching him.
:biggums:

[PickernRoller]

Westbrook is a winner. That simple.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

This is interesting, because I'm also a heterosexual male and I met him last year and that night I had a dream that we were in a room and he he had his d*** out and it was huge. He said "get it wet", and then I woke up. Now every time I see Westbrook on TV, I can't stop watching him.
Budadii is that you? :biggums:

[EternalThunder]

Budadii is that you? :biggums:

I don't know who that is.

[D-Wade316]

KD is a better player, but Westbrook's impact is greater.

[EternalThunder]

KD is a better player, but Westbrook's impact is greater.

I think they have equal impact.

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

GOATbrook is the best player in the NBA today

[SillyRabbit]

2010-2011

Regular season

Top 7 in NBA scoring
Top 6 in NBA assists

Playoffs

Top 7 in NBA scoring
Top 6 in NBA assists



2011-2012

Regular season

Top 5 in NBA scoring
Top 12 in NBA assists

Playoffs

Top 6 in NBA scoring
Top 10 in NBA assists



2012-2013

Regular season

Top 6 in NBA scoring
Top 6 in NBA assists

Playoffs

Injured


Westbrook has basically cemented himself as a top 6 scorer and top 6 playmaker in the NBA. Add in the fact that he's one of the best rebounding point guards in the league (if not the best) and a top 3 defender as his position and you can see why people rank him so close to the top 5 best players in the NBA.