A Dozen Centers at Their Relative Peaks. Who you got?

[elementally morale]

A miracle happens. We have the following players playing next year:


1950-51 Mikan
1959-60 Russell
1961-62 Wilt
1971-72 Kareem
1981-82 Moses
1989-90 Ewing
1993-94 Robinson
1994-95 Hakeem
1999-00 Shaq
2002-03 Duncan
2006-07 Yao
2007-08 Dwight



The year they play in the same league is 2014. Each and every one of them plays at his own peak, gets the best training and medication of 2014. They play on different teams. Their teammates are, however, the same. (Imagine clones.) The game is played with 1987 rules and officiating.


Questions:


What are the statlines for the players above? [PPG, RPG, APG, BPG, SPG FG%]
What are the H2H's? (With 12 players there would be 12 x 11 / 2 = 66 H2Hs, so you can keep it a bit simpler here, just tell us the ones most interesting to you.)
Who wins the championship? (Remember: identical clones for all other players)

[PizzamanIRL]

I don't know.

That's too much thinking to do.

[LAZERUSS]

Based strictly on taking Chamberlain's '62 numbers, and transporting them to the '87 season (using adjusted FGAs, FTAs, and FG%'s), and Wilt would have been a 45 ppg, 18 rpg, .580 FG% player.

BTW, I believe Wilt's peak years were '65-66 and '66-67. And, he would have been capable of scoring much more than he did in those two years.

[STATUTORY]

it's debatable who will be the best but it's unquestionable who will rank dead last

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Los+Angeles+Lakers+Introduce+Dwight+Howard+zd1HnpB lSkHl.jpg

[elementally morale]

Based strictly on taking Chamberlain's '62 numbers, and transporting them to the '87 season


1) 2014-2015 season, but 1987-88 rules and officiating.
2) Don't transport. You can't. The opponents are different. Wilt would not average 45 ppg against these other centers at their peaks. That ain't happening. If anything, all peak stats are going DOWN as there is a lot more competition around.




BTW, I believe Wilt's peak years were '65-66 and '66-67. And, he would have been capable of scoring much more than he did in those two years.


Feel free to use any years you regards as 'peak' for a certain player. The rules are not rigid and let's not play Hollinger here. :-)

[Scholar]

Damn, this is a difficult choice.

I'll go with 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal. I bet he'd average somewhere over 30 ppg, 15 rpg and 4 bpg today. His best competition as far as C's go in the NBA today, according to most NBA experts, would be Dwight Howard. :oldlol: 7'1", 325+ lb Shaq would eat D12 in the post.
The only way to stop Shaq is with Hack-a-Shaq. That's insane. If you don't experiment with that strategy odds are you're going to get demolished by him.

[LAZERUSS]

1) 2014-2015 season, but 1987-88 rules and officiating.
2) Don't transport. You can't. The opponents are different. Wilt would not average 45 ppg against these other centers at their peaks. That ain't happening. If anything, all peak stats are going DOWN as there is a lot more competition around.





Feel free to use any years you regards as 'peak' for a certain player. The rules are not rigid and let's not play Hollinger here. :-)

Well, given the fact that Wilt had entire seasons, covering 10+ H2H games with Russell, in which he averaged 40, 38, and 38 ppg. Or that he entire seasons, covering 10 H2H games, against the 6-11 HOFer Bellamy, of 53 and 44 ppg. Or entire seasons, covering nine H2H games, of 40 ppg against HOFer Reed. Or an entire season of nearly 30 ppg against HOFer Nate Thurmond (who routinely held KAJ to WAY below his normal scoring and shooting numbers), I think it fair to say that a peak Wilt would be capable of scoring a TON of points against ANY of those centers.

[KobesFinger]

A miracle happens. We have the following players playing next year:


1950-51 Mikan
1959-60 Russell
1961-62 Wilt
1971-72 Kareem
1981-82 Moses
1989-90 Ewing
1993-94 Robinson
1994-95 Hakeem
1999-00 Shaq
2002-03 Duncan
2006-07 Yao
2007-08 Dwight



The year they play in the same league is 2014. Each and every one of them plays at his own peak, gets the best training and medication of 2014. They play on different teams. Their teammates are, however, the same. (Imagine clones.) The game is played with 1987 rules and officiating.


Questions:


What are the statlines for the players above? [PPG, RPG, APG, BPG, SPG FG%]
What are the H2H's? (With 12 players there would be 12 x 11 / 2 = 66 H2Hs, so you can keep it a bit simpler here, just tell us the ones most interesting to you.)
Who wins the championship? (Remember: identical clones for all other players)


1) Mikan - I've never seen footage
Russell - 20/14/4/5+/?/47%
Wilt - 30+/16/4/5+/?/54%
Kareem - 29/13/4/?/57%
Moses - 26/13/1/2/?/50%
Ewing - 27/12/1/5/?/49%
Robinson - 31/14/3/5/?/54%
Hakeem - 30/13/3/3/?/52%
Shaq - 34/12/4/3/?/60%
Yao - 18/8/3/2/?/50%
Dwight - 20/14/1/3/1/58%

2) Most interesting H2Hs IMO: Wilt vs D-Rob, Wilt vs Shaq, Moses vs Dwight, Yao vs Wilt, Russell vs Hakeem, D-Rob vs Dwight

3) My top 5: Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Russell.

[elementally morale]

The only way to stop Shaq is with Hack-a-Shaq. That's insane. If you don't experiment with that strategy odds are you're going to get demolished by him.

1987 rules and officiating for a reason...

[salwan]

it's debatable who will be the best but it's unquestionable who will rank dead last

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Los+Angeles+Lakers+Introduce+Dwight+Howard+zd1HnpB lSkHl.jpg

:lol this

[LAZERUSS]

As a sidenote, in 11 H2H's, a 59-60 Rookie Wilt averaged 38 ppg, on a .465 FG% against a 59-60 Russell...in a season in which Wilt averaged 38 ppg and shot .461 (in a league that had an eFG% of .410.) BTW, he held Russell, who shot a career .467 that season, to a .399 FG% in those 11 games.

And that was not a peak Chamberlain, either.

[LAZERUSS]

1) Mikan - I've never seen footage
Russell - 20/14/4/5+/?/47%
Wilt - 30+/16/4/5+/?/54%
Kareem - 29/13/4/?/57%
Moses - 26/13/1/2/?/50%
Ewing - 27/12/1/5/?/49%
Robinson - 31/14/3/5/?/54%
Hakeem - 30/13/3/3/?/52%
Shaq - 34/12/4/3/?/60%
Yao - 18/8/3/2/?/50%
Dwight - 20/14/1/3/1/58%

2) Most interesting H2Hs IMO: Wilt vs D-Rob, Wilt vs Shaq, Moses vs Dwight, Yao vs Wilt, Russell vs Hakeem, D-Rob vs Dwight

3) My top 5: Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Russell.

You have to account for a 1987 NBA. There is no way that a peak Chamberlain would only shoot .540 in 1987. Just adjusting for league average FG%, a '62 Wilt would have shot .580 in '87. Put a mid-60's Wilt into '87 and he would have easily topped .600 (and over .700 using his '67 season.)

[L.Kizzle]

1) 2014-2015 season, but 1987-88 rules and officiating.
2) Don't transport. You can't. The opponents are different. Wilt would not average 45 ppg against these other centers at their peaks. That ain't happening. If anything, all peak stats are going DOWN as there is a lot more competition around.





Feel free to use any years you regards as 'peak' for a certain player. The rules are not rigid and let's not play Hollinger here. :-)
If Wilt could get 50 vs Russell, Kerr, Bellamy, ect in 62 why couldn't he get 45 vs. past prime Moses and Kareem; Laimbeer and Parish and before prime Hakeem?

[elementally morale]

If Wilt could get 50 vs Russell, Kerr, Bellamy, ect in 62 why couldn't he get 45 vs. past prime Moses and Kareem; Laimbeer and Parish and before prime Hakeem?

Reading is fundamental. Everyone plays at their respective peaks. A miracle happens.

[LAZERUSS]

Reading is fundamental. Everyone plays at their respective peaks. A miracle happens.

Just as an example...

In his 71-72 season, Kareem averaged 24.0 ppg on a .441 FG% against Thurmond in their three regular season H2H's. Then, in the playoffs, in a five game series, Thurmond outscored KAJ, per game, 25-22, and outshot Kareem by a .434 to .405 margin. BTW, his career high game against Nate, in 50 H2H games,...was 34 points.

In his 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, covering a total of 10 H2H games, a 38-39 year old KAJ averaged 32 ppg on a .621 FG% against a 22-23 year old Hakeem. And in those ten games, KAJ had three games of 40+ (40, 43, and 46.)

[L.Kizzle]

Reading is fundamental. Everyone plays at their respective peaks. A miracle happens.
OK, still if he could avg 50 vs. Prime Russell, he could get it vs. prime Robinson and Ewing, ect. Maybe not 45, but High 30s.

[LAZERUSS]

OK, still if he could avg 50 vs. Prime Russell, he could get it vs. prime Robinson and Ewing, ect. Maybe not 45, but High 30s.

Wilt had FIVE career games of 50+ against Russell, with a high of 62 (on 27-45 shooting.) BTW, his career high game against Thurmond was 45 points. The same Thurmond who battled KAJ in 50 career H2H games, and Kareem's high game in those H2H's was only 34 points. And speaking of KAJ-Thurmond....the two battled in three playoff series ('71, '72, and '73), and Kareem shot .486, .405, and .428 in them. Wilt and Nate went at it in three playoff series, and Chamberlain outshot Thurmond by margins of .500 to .392, .550 to .398, and... .560 to .343 (and this was a peak Thurmond in his greatest season.)

[L.Kizzle]

Wilt had FIVE career games of 50+ against Russell, with a high of 62 (on 27-45 shooting.) BTW, his career high game against Thurmond was 45 points. The same Thurmond who battled KAJ in 50 career H2H games, and Kareem's high game in those H2H's was only 34 points. And speaking of KAJ-Thurmond....the two battled in three playoff series ('71, '72, and '73), and Kareem shot .486, .405, and .428 in them. Wilt and Nate went at it in three playoff series, and Chamberlain outshot Thurmond by margins of .500 to .392, .550 to .398, and... .560 to .343 (and this was a peak Thurmond in his greatest season.)
Thurmond's not here and Russell is considered the greatest defender ever, and he dropped 50 on him five times.

Hakeem and Robin are the best defenders out of the bunch not named Wilt and Russell. Hakeem is similar to Russell is size and Robinson to Nate T.

[BoutPractice]

Awesome premise.

OK, first of all, I think the bottom of the food chain would be Mikan and 2008 Howard... Mikan because he played pre-shot clock and I don't think his skills are enough to compensate for his lack of physical competitive advantage, Howard because he visibly struggled scoring against giants.

The next tier would be Ewing, Yao, Robinson and Moses. Ewing is not as good a scorer as the remaining centers other than Russell... Moses is a great rebounder and very good scorer but not as good a defender. Yao is a fantastic scorer and hard to score on but he'll probably be injured come playoff time. Robinson is the best of that tier, he's just not as good as the top tier.

The top tier would be Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Duncan, and Shaq and incidentally their teams would be the best performing. Of this group Russell would have the worst offensive stats but the most rebounds other than Wilt and his opponents would also have their lowest stats against him. Wilt, Shaq and Kareem would have the best offensive stats, followed by Hakeem. Wilt would have the best overall stats followed by Kareem. Duncan and Hakeem's statlines would look less spectacular but they would be very complete, at least 22/12/5/3. On average, the winning team would be the one with either Russell or Duncan because they're the best 'fit' in a group selected at at random while the Kareem-led and Wilt-led team would underperform (in Wilt's case because you picked 62, not 67).

(Incidentally we do have H2H stats of Olajuwon and Robison at their peak, as well as Chamberlain VS Russell and Shaq VS Duncan, so we have a decent idea of what a battle of the titans looks like statistically: the two players tend to perform less well than usual, but still put up superstar stats, and there is rarely utter domination of one player by the other.)

[LAZERUSS]

Awesome premise.

OK, first of all, I think the bottom of the food chain would be Mikan and 2008 Howard... Mikan because he played pre-shot clock and I don't think his skills are enough to compensate for his lack of physical competitive advantage, Howard because he visibly struggled scoring against giants.

The next tier would be Ewing, Yao, Robinson and Moses. Ewing is not as good a scorer as the remaining centers other than Russell... Moses is a great rebounder and very good scorer but not as good a defender. Yao is a fantastic scorer and hard to score on but he'll probably be injured come playoff time. Robinson is the best of that tier, he's just not as good as the top tier.

The top tier would be Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Duncan, and Shaq and incidentally their teams would be the best performing. Of this group Russell would have the worst offensive stats but the most rebounds other than Wilt and his opponents would also have their lowest stats against him. Wilt, Shaq and Kareem would have the best offensive stats, followed by Hakeem. Wilt would have the best overall stats followed by Kareem. Duncan and Hakeem's statlines would look less spectacular but they would be very complete, at least 22/12/5/3. On average, the winning team would be the one with either Russell or Duncan because they're the best 'fit' in a group selected at at random while the Kareem-led and Wilt-led team would underperform (in Wilt's case because you picked 62, not 67).

(Incidentally we do have H2H stats of Olajuwon and Robison at their peak, as well as Chamberlain VS Russell and Shaq VS Duncan, so we have a decent idea of what a battle of the titans looks like statistically: the two players tend to perform less well than usual, but still put up superstar stats, and there is rarely utter domination of one player by the other.)

Here are some H2H's, but you will have to draw your own conclusions as to "prime" in each.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=onealsh01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=onealsh01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=robinda01

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdEpOeFRwY29NRTUtWVlFWVJ5TkFDY 3c#gid=0

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=abdulka01&p2=malonmo01

BTW, thanks to fpliii (and a few other's for the Russell-Wilt H2H's)...

As for the above Duncan-Shaq H2H's, it must be noted that they seldom defended each other until the 4th quarters. Duncan had a notoriously awful FG% against Shaq in 4th quarters BTW.

[ChuckOakley]

For those that have never seen half these players play, how do you feel qualified to rank them? Just on stats? I've never understood this.

[BoutPractice]

For those that have never seen half these players play, how do you feel qualified to rank them? Just on stats? I've never understood this.
There are representative full games available online for all of these players (except Mikan). For some reason, there are few full games of peak scoring Wilt, but thanks to the effort of basketball researchers there is enough footage to get a pretty good idea of how he played. If you combine these games with stats, success and accolades, and the perception of their peers at the time, you have more information to form an opinion than, say, a non-obsessive fan on a current player.

[LAZERUSS]

There are representative full games available online for all of these players (except Mikan). For some reason, there are few full games of peak scoring Wilt, but thanks to the effort of basketball researchers there is enough footage to get a pretty good idea of how he played. If you combine these games with stats, success and accolades, and the perception of their peers at the time, you have more information to form an opinion than, say, a non-obsessive fan on a current player.

Good post, but the reality is, there is virtually no footage of any of Wilt's 271 40+ point games. In fact, there is no footage from any of Chamberlain's statistically dominating games, which probably number around 500+.

[LAZERUSS]

As for the OP...

Russell would be difficult to quantify. His brilliance went beyond the stats (although his rebounding was among the best ever.) He was the greatest defensive center in NBA history (and for those that use advanced stats, he had the six highest defensive win-share seasons in NBA history.) And he elevated the play of his teammates (much like Duncan.)

In terms of all-around domination, Chamberlain was the greatest scoring, rebounding, passing, and shot-blocking center of all-time. And his FG% efficiency, when compared to league average, was among the highest (his 66-67 season, in a year in which he averaged 24 ppg was an eye-popping .683...in a league with an eFG% of .441.)

Next would be Kareem, and then Shaq. Both were the next most unstoppable offensive centers of all-time.

IMHO, Duncan was really a center, and his all-round skills combined with his chemistry, would place him next.

Then Moses, whose defense gets under-rated, but if you look at his career H2H's with the best centers of his era, he really held them all well below their career numbers. And aside from a 60's Wilt, and a '99-'05 Shaq, a prime Moses was the only other center to completely dominate the best centers of his era.

Followed by Hakeem, D-Rob, and Dwight.

Yao was just too injury prone to rank. And Mikan dominated in the pre-shot clock era, and really before the great Black players came into the league in the late 50's.

[FKAri]

Are people forgetting that their playing with their respective teams, so that would obviously factor into how well they'd do.

[The Iron Fist]

1) 2014-2015 season, but 1987-88 rules and officiating.
2) Don't transport. You can't. The opponents are different. Wilt would not average 45 ppg against these other centers at their peaks. That ain't happening. If anything, all peak stats are going DOWN as there is a lot more competition around.





Feel free to use any years you regards as 'peak' for a certain player. The rules are not rigid and let's not play Hollinger here. :-)
Why would Kareem stats go down? He played in the best era of centers.

[ChuckOakley]

There are representative full games available online for all of these players (except Mikan). For some reason, there are few full games of peak scoring Wilt, but thanks to the effort of basketball researchers there is enough footage to get a pretty good idea of how he played. If you combine these games with stats, success and accolades, and the perception of their peers at the time, you have more information to form an opinion than, say, a non-obsessive fan on a current player.
Yes but your not watching a majority of the other teams or player during that era. You're watching a very small sample of his best games usually. Also, the game has changed so much over the years it's hard to compare players across eras IMO.

IMO I don't at all feel qualified to speak about a player before I started following the NBA (late 80's).

[elementally morale]

Why would Kareem stats go down? He played in the best era of centers.

Kareem, as great as he was (#1 on my GOAT list for example, ahead of MJ) had his troubles witl centers like Wilt or Moses. Plus he didn't play a peak Shaq. I think almost all individual stats would go down, save for possibly Duncan and Hakeem, due to their finesse. Kareem had finesse as well, but he played closer to the basket like to above mentioned -- and playing closer to the basket with Wilt/russell/Dwight/Moses in the paint spells trouble IMHO.

[CavaliersFTW]

Damn I wish you woulda picked '67 Wilt, '67 Wilt would have sh*t all over everyone. Now I have to think about this hmmm.

[elementally morale]

Damn I wish you woulda picked '67 Wilt, '67 Wilt would have sh*t all over everyone. Now I have to think about this hmmm.

Go right ahead and pick 67 Wilt. It doesn't change the concept. Individual stats, interesting H2Hs and the winner in the end. These are the main question. Centers at (what you think is their) relative peaks.

[Deuce Bigalow]

1. Mikan
2. Shaq
3. Kareem
4. Hakeem
5. Duncan
6. Russell

[elementally morale]

1. Mikan
2. Shaq
3. Kareem
4. Hakeem
5. Duncan
6. Russell

Mikan is an interesting choice at #1
What makes you believe that?

[Deuce Bigalow]

In terms of all-around domination, Chamberlain was the greatest scoring, rebounding, passing, and shot-blocking center of all-time.
The facts:
Wilt never led a championship team in scoring. Mikan, Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq have multiple times.
Wilt never averaged 30 ppg in the NBA Finals. Mikan, Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq have.
Wilt shot 45%FT in the Playoffs and 37.5%FT in the Finals, by far the lowest among basically every player in NBA history probably, especially lower than Mikan, Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq's FT% numbers.
Wilt averaged 22.5 ppg in the playoffs and 18 ppg in the Finals, again, lower than Mikan, Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq PPG numbers in the postseason.

No, Wilt was not the greatest scoring center ever in the Playoffs and Finals.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Mikan is an interesting choice at #1
What makes you believe that?
He was the greatest player I have ever seen.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Mikan is an interesting choice at #1
What makes you believe that?
He's trolling.

Anyways:

#1 = Shaq

[Marchesk]

He was the greatest player I have ever seen.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Saw him play, did you? You are literally the only person on the planet who takes Mikan over Wilt and Kareem. Oh and Shaq too.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Damn I wish you woulda picked '67 Wilt, '67 Wilt would have sh*t all over everyone. Now I have to think about this hmmm.
Mikan would toy around with Wilt as if he was a high school JV freshman. Kareem we already seen own Wilt. Hakeem would make Wilt look like D-Rob and Shaq would just straight up dunk on Wilt like Mutombo in the 01 Finals. Wilt would transition into Dwight Howard in the modern league. Still an All-Star caliber player.

[Mr. Jabbar]

it's debatable who will be the best but it's unquestionable who will rank dead last

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Los+Angeles+Lakers+Introduce+Dwight+Howard+zd1HnpB lSkHl.jpg

:roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Saw him play, did you? You are literally the only person on the planet who takes Mikan over Wilt and Kareem. Oh and Shaq too.
George was just that good. His sheer domination and will carried the Lakers and quite frankly the league as well.

[rmt]

1) Mikan - I've never seen footage
Russell - 20/14/4/5+/?/47%
Wilt - 30+/16/4/5+/?/54%
Kareem - 29/13/4/?/57%
Moses - 26/13/1/2/?/50%
Ewing - 27/12/1/5/?/49%
Robinson - 31/14/3/5/?/54%
Hakeem - 30/13/3/3/?/52%
Shaq - 34/12/4/3/?/60%
Yao - 18/8/3/2/?/50%
Dwight - 20/14/1/3/1/58%

2) Most interesting H2Hs IMO: Wilt vs D-Rob, Wilt vs Shaq, Moses vs Dwight, Yao vs Wilt, Russell vs Hakeem, D-Rob vs Dwight

3) My top 5: Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Russell.

You left out Duncan. Would you please guesstimate for him? All I know for sure is that their stats would all go down from their peak playing in a league with all these other guys. And that all the other big men in the league will be sought after and making a lot more money.

[KobesFinger]

You left out Duncan. Would you please guesstimate for him? All I know for sure is that their stats would all go down from their peak playing in a league with all these other guys. And that all the other big men in the league will be sought after and making a lot more money.

Didn't see him on the list, oops. Prime Duncan today, without zone D? 25/14/4/2/? shooting about 52% I think. Around the same stats from '03 because his game has no holes, and while he got buckets his scoring was never in the Shaq/D-Rob level.

In this hypothetical are there still 30 teams or just the ones with these Cs on? I was assuming its the current NBA (with '87 rules) with the same scrub Cs apart from the ones listed.

We need that hypothetical machine from Rocky Balboa, I'd pay good money to see something like this

[Element]

Why would Wilt shoot better in the late 80's? Does he suddenly gain new skill? To make matters worse, the competition is way tougher so this notion that his scoring efficiency will suddenly rise because of the league average is dumb. The league had low FG% averages because the average player of back then had the skills of today's scrubs. Simple as that.

Shaq 32/13/3/4 @ 57 FG%
Russell 16/17/5/5 @ 48 FG%
Kareem 33/13/4/3 @ 55 FG%
Hakeem 30/13/5/5 @ 51 FG%
'11 Dwight 23/14/2/4 @ 56 FG%
Robinson 28/13/3/4 @ 55 FG%
Wilt 30/17/4/5 @ 55 FG%
Yao 27/13/3/3 @ 52 FG%

I haven't seen any footage of Moses or Mikan and just the 94 Finals and 92 ECSF for Ewing (didn't particularly focus on watching him during the Bulls series, either)

When I watch footage of Wilt/KAJ/Russell it's usually because I deliberately wanted to see those guys play. With Ewing it was just by chance that I caught him, I wanted to watch Hakeem and Jordan, respectively.

[pudman13]

You're missing 1977-1978 Walton

[Psileas]

Why would Wilt shoot better in the late 80's? Does he suddenly gain new skill? To make matters worse, the competition is way tougher so this notion that his scoring efficiency will suddenly rise because of the league average is dumb. The league had low FG% averages because the average player of back then had the skills of today's scrubs. Simple as that.

Shaq 32/13/3/4 @ 57 FG%
Russell 16/17/5/5 @ 48 FG%
Kareem 33/13/4/3 @ 55 FG%
Hakeem 30/13/5/5 @ 51 FG%
'11 Dwight 23/14/2/4 @ 56 FG%
Robinson 28/13/3/4 @ 55 FG%
Wilt 30/17/4/5 @ 55 FG%
Yao 27/13/3/3 @ 52 FG%

I haven't seen any footage of Moses or Mikan and just the 94 Finals and 92 ECSF for Ewing (didn't particularly focus on watching him during the Bulls series, either)

When I watch footage of Wilt/KAJ/Russell it's usually because I deliberately wanted to see those guys play. With Ewing it was just by chance that I caught him, I wanted to watch Hakeem and Jordan, respectively.

And yet you've risen the scoring numbers of just about everyone else...

I won't even comment on the unbolded part, it's pointless. I'll just point out that Euroleague shooting percentages blow out modern NBA team shooting percentages, so this must mean NBA players have scrub-like skills compared to Euroleague ones...

[Element]

And yet you've risen the scoring numbers of just about everyone else...

I won't even comment on the unbolded part, it's pointless. I'll just point out that Euroleague shooting percentages blow out modern NBA team shooting percentages, so this must mean NBA players have scrub-like skills compared to Euroleague ones...

No it means modern NBA defenses are better. You really tryin to deny the progress of the entire league as a whole to make your ancient hero look better :oldlol:

[Psileas]

No it means modern NBA defenses are better. You really tryin to deny the progress of the entire league as a whole to make your ancient hero look better

It somehow isn't looking that great (or the competition either) when you're attributing Shaq with 32 ppg (which he never came really close to), Russell with 16 ppg (more than his career average and even more "ancient" than my "hero"), Kareem with 33 ppg (which he only achieved once, and in an era that you should also consider "ancient"), Hakeem with 30 ppg (never once did he get there), Dwight with 23 ppg, Yao with 27 ppg (more than his career high) and Robinson with 28 ppg.

Of course, with Wilt having faced a crapload of HOFers year after year, there's absolutely no reason to believe that his '89 competition will be any better and, while you commented about defenses being better, you conveniently left improved offenses outside, which would mean, guess what, that he'd probably shoot better.

[LAZERUSS]

Why would Wilt shoot better in the late 80's? Does he suddenly gain new skill? To make matters worse, the competition is way tougher so this notion that his scoring efficiency will suddenly rise because of the league average is dumb. The league had low FG% averages because the average player of back then had the skills of today's scrubs. Simple as that.

Shaq 32/13/3/4 @ 57 FG%
Russell 16/17/5/5 @ 48 FG%
Kareem 33/13/4/3 @ 55 FG%
Hakeem 30/13/5/5 @ 51 FG%
'11 Dwight 23/14/2/4 @ 56 FG%
Robinson 28/13/3/4 @ 55 FG%
Wilt 30/17/4/5 @ 55 FG%
Yao 27/13/3/3 @ 52 FG%

I haven't seen any footage of Moses or Mikan and just the 94 Finals and 92 ECSF for Ewing (didn't particularly focus on watching him during the Bulls series, either)

When I watch footage of Wilt/KAJ/Russell it's usually because I deliberately wanted to see those guys play. With Ewing it was just by chance that I caught him, I wanted to watch Hakeem and Jordan, respectively.

KAJ has seasons in his PRIME and in the 70's, in which he shot .539, .529, .518, and even .513 (in the middle of the decade no less.) He had playoff series in the early 70's of .486, .481, .457, .428, and even .405. But, in the 80's he was hanging seasons of .604 and even .599 at age 37. And a 38-39 year old KAJ, in a span of ten straight h2h games, averaged 32 ppg on a .621 FG% against Hakeem, which included three games of 40, 43, and 46 points. And in the same week he leveled Hakeem with that 46 point game (on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes), he hung a 40 point game on Ewing (on 15-22 shooting, while holding Ewing to nine points on 3-17 shooting.) BTW, a PRIME Kareem's HIGH game against Thurmond...in 50 h2h games? 34 points.

A prime Gilmore in the 70's never shot above .575 from the field, and he had one season, at age 27, in which he averaged 18.6 ppg on a .522 FG% ('77.) And yet, in the 80's, he was putting up seasons of .618, .623, .626, 652, and even .670. He had a season, at age 35 of 19.1 ppg on a .623 FG%, and another season of 18.5 ppg on .652 shooting.


And how about this... take a look at the league FT% in the 58-59 season. It was .756. How about THIS season? .746. So, if you believe that players were worse shooters in the 50's and 60's, how do explain that?


Virtually every player whose career spanned the early 60's thru the late 60's, and even into the 70's...shot better much later in their careers. Take a look at Jerry West's shot in the footage of '62 ASG. Same EXACT form that he had in the late 60's. Guess what, he shot .445 in that 61-62 season (and .419 the year before), and yet was shooting .514 in seasons in the late 60's.

Look up Darrall Imhoff, Elgin Baylor, Johnny Green, and John Havlicek. All shot DRAMATICALLY higher in the late 60's (and early 70's) than they did in the early 60's. Imhoff having three seasons of .394, .386, and even .314 in the early 60's, and then as high as .540 in the late 60's? Johhny Green with seasons of .430 and .436 in the early 60's, and then leading the league at .587 in the 70's (and scoring more ppg too)? John Havlicked playing eight seasons in the 60's and then eight seasons in the 70's...and guess what, shooting better every season in the 70's, than any season in the 60's? Hell, Wilt himself shot .461 from the field in his rookie season, and in the year in which he averaged 50.6, he had a career high FT% of .613, but his FG% was "only" .506. How come?

And virtually every player who played in the late 60's thru the 70's, and then even into the 80's...shot better. Did all these players just learn to shoot better? Players like KAJ, Gilmore, Dantley, and many others. And how do explain the NBA shooting 468 in 77-78, and then .485 in 78-79? Or entire leagues shooting nearly 50% in the 80's. Teams going 31-51 and shooting.504? Please, educate all of us here on how that could happen.

And, on the flip side, how come the star players of the 80's, almost all shot better in the 80's, than they did in the 90's....including CENTERS? Hakeem shooting his career high FG% in his rookie season. Or D-Rob and Ewing shooting career highs in their careers and in the late 80's and early 90's, and then declining considerably while in their supposed primes. Did all of those guys slowly forget how to shoot?

BTW, find me ONE player from the 80's to now, who ever played FIVE GAMES IN FIVE NIGHTS (with two road games in between BTW)...and, who played every minute of them. Or three playoff games, in three nights, (and on an injured leg, and playing every minute of them.)

As for Wilt's scoring. Do you honestly believe that players today, playing 48 mpg, and taking 39 FGAs per game, would shoot anywhere near what their real FG% was? Hell, KAJ, playing nearly every minute of every game of the '72 WCF's, averaged 34 FGAs per game, and shot .457. This from a player who averaged 25 FGAs per game during the season, and shot .574.


I look forward to your well-researched answers...

[Odinn]

Duncan was NOT a center. I am so sick of this idiocy.

to OP;
Russel was not at his best in 1959-60 season. It is 1961-62 or 1964-65.
If you are not obsessed with numbers, you should rank 1966-67 Wilt over 1961-62 Wilt.
KAJ was not at his best in 1971-72. It is 1976-77 or 1979-80.
1994-95 Playoffs were just so shiny for Hakeem. But his best overall season was 1993-94 season.
2007-08 as Dwight Howard's peak season?! What kind of a joke is that??

There are way too many wrongs in the first post. Still I'm going to post my top 5.


1. 1999-00 Shaq
2. 1976-77 Kareem
3. 1966-67 Wilt
4. 1993-94 Hakeem
5. 1961-62 Russell or 1981-82 Moses (1982-83 Moses)

[elementally morale]

Duncan was NOT a center. I am so sick of this idiocy.



Sorry, I think Duncan plays center. Not any less than Hakeem.

[elementally morale]

There are way too many wrongs in the first post.



I think there is nothing wrong in there. I repeated multiple times: Feel free to use the year you think a certain player peaked at. It's about the concept and thinking about it, nit arguing over any sets of given years.




1. 1999-00 Shaq
2. 1976-77 Kareem
3. 1966-67 Wilt
4. 1993-94 Hakeem
5. 1961-62 Russell or 1981-82 Moses (1982-83 Moses)

I like your list.

[ralph_i_el]

Gimmie 94-95 Rik Smits and **** these clown ******

Just kidding. I'll take Juwan Howard

[Odinn]

Sorry, I think Duncan plays center. Not any less than Hakeem.
Duncan didn't play C until 2006-07. I have the entire Spurs games in 2003 playoffs and Duncan was not a C. He was a PF.