Is Lebron a top 3 passer in the league?

[Jameerthefear]

moe94 doesn't think so, so lets get everyone's opinion on this...

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Cp3
Rondo
Rubio
Nash

Are better. Probably put him#5

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Both Gasol's and Diaw make some of the most ridiculous passes every season as well. Incredible vision and passing ability. Maybe not over LeBron.

Would take Ginobili over LeBron as a passer, tho.

[Brook(lyn)Lopez]

At his position yeah.

[TheReal Kendall]

No. For his position though but people say he's a point guard :confusedshrug:

[Haymaker]

He's the best at SF, but he plays so many positions that he ain't exclusively a SF.

[Miller for 3]

Paul
Rubio
Rondo
Nash
Ginobili


All clearly better. He's def top 10 though.

[SpecialQue]

Rubio
Ginobili
Blake

[inclinerator]

Paul
Rubio
Rondo
Nash
Ginobili


All clearly better. He's def top 10 though.
wow ur first lebron compliment :applause:

[avonbarksdale]

the fact that he draws a double time almost always makes it pretty easy for him to rack up assists by dishing to open shooters

he is a very good passer but also gets put in good opportunities to get assists

[Ken_Masters]

LeBron is a good passer but not great. The majority of his assists are bullet passes to open 3 point shooters. When he goes to the bench, those same 3 point shooters are still getting wide open looks. He is a good passer but not great.

[livingby3's]

He's definitely first in passing in terms of non-guards.
So that will move him to a 6-7 in the league behind guys listed in the many previous posts.

[plowking]

LeBron is a good passer but not great. The majority of his assists are bullet passes to open 3 point shooters. When he goes to the bench, those same 3 point shooters are still getting wide open looks. He is a good passer but not great.

They're cross court passes, and hes the only one that can pull them off without getting picked off.

Hes top 5 at worst.

[Trollsmasher]

Weird how this board suddenly found somenew love for Manu's after condemning him in the Finals for something like 8 4th quarter passing TOs in a row:lol

[Fawker]

the lone best passer at his package

[moe94]

Hes top 5 at worst.

What is this a testament to? His abilities or the depletion of the traditional PG?

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Weird how this board suddenly found somenew love for Manu's after condemning him in the Finals for something like 8 4th quarter passing TOs in a row:lol

Ginobili's passing has always been well respected. He had a bad Finals series. It happens... Ask LeBron.

[Trollsmasher]

Ginobili's passing has always been well respected. He had a bad Finals series. It happens... Ask LeBron.
I know it has been respected, but it seemed 90% people forgot it after the Finals.

Too erratic for my liking though.

[Graviton]

Lebron is the best passer in the league, his height, wrist strength and versatility allow him to make bullet, cross court and bounce passes that no midget PG can. There is a reason why he was the main playmaker and ball handler for the Olympic team. You can't stop his passes same way you can say CP3's by putting a quicker/taller defender on him.

Anyone who actually watches a lot of Lebron notices him making some passes that make you literally yell "WHAT THE ****!". The "traditional" midget PGs that get all the hype with their passing never impress me like Lebron. Paul, Nash and the rest make your basic everyday passes, Lebron on the other hand delivers bullets like a sniper, the speed, accuracy and the distance of his passes are on another level.

[Trollsmasher]

Lebron is the best passer in the league, his height, wrist strength and versatility allow him to make bullet, cross court and bounce passes that no midget PG can. There is a reason why he was the main playmaker and ball handler for the Olympic team. You can't stop his passes same way you can say CP3's by putting a quicker/taller defender on him.

Anyone who actually watches a lot of Lebron notices him making some passes that make you literally yell "WHAT THE ****!". The "traditional" midget PGs that get all the hype with their passing never impress me like Lebron. Paul, Nash and the rest make your basic everyday passes, Lebron on the other hand delivers bullets like a sniper, the speed, accuracy and the distance of his passes are on another level.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL48Pkt5kW0

[pauk]

Top 3? Anybody who thinks Lebron is not arguably even the BEST passer in the game either is...

..a Lebron cynic
..a fan who cant yet concieve what passing skills means and how to measure it
..a fan who has not watched Lebron thoroughly
..a fan who thinks that "passing = assists"
..a fan who feels bad about not giving that title to a point-guard who does nothing but passes 24-7
..a fan with a combination of the above


Lebron is not the best assist man (he maybe could be though if he started PG and set his mind to it)..... but when talking about court vision, raw passing skills alone i dont see any other player in the league showing notably higher degree, accuracy & range of difficult passes (not to mention the speed those balls travel) than Lebron at that volume/consistency...

Look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

...and then compare that to anything.... and then also watch the games and see at what frequency & fortune Lebron does those passes compared to anybody else at this given moment....

I am not saying he is the best pure passer, but i am saying that i dont think its absurd to argue....

With this being said, i think Manu Ginobili is even more so underrated, his passing skills are easily one of the best...

[Graviton]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL48Pkt5kW0
There are even more ridiculous ones. I remember one in 2012 Finals when Harden was right in front of him, but he threw a bullet pass past Harden's face to Bosh in the post. It was so fast Harden couldn't even react to the ball flying past his beard.

I like how people list Rondo, CP3, Nash as better but don't explain HOW or WHY they are better. They are just repeating the shit that's supposed to be "accepted" thanks to the media telling us PGs are always the best passers.

Let me tell you exactly why all those midgets are worse than Lebron. James can make ANY pass those PGs can, but...

1) Lebron is taller than all of them, he can see and read the defense much easier and make passes that those guys can't.

2) He is also stronger and bigger, meaning he can post up and draw double teams and make passes from the low block.

3) He is also one of the best slashers in the league, every time he drives 2-4 people collapse on him, allowing him to make passes from that situation.

4) Because he has such insane wrist strength, he can make off balance one handed bullet/cross court passes that no midget PG can. After grabbing a rebound himself James can either push it and make a bounce pass or throw it ahead immediately. And because of his power and height neither the speed nor the accuracy of the pass is affected.

5) Again, thanks to his size and ball handling ability you can't harass him and **** up his passes with a bigger athletic defender on him the way you can a regular PG.


Can't believe people still cling to the notion that midget PGs are better passers than Lebron, he showed in the Olympics he is a 6'8 260 pound PG himself, with the same speed/quickness. He can do EVERYTHING those guys can and then some. I honestly don't see how it's not him, he has too many strengths and few weaknesses as far as passing goes, a midget PG on the other hand has lot of faults but no advantages over him.

[Droid101]

Top 3? Anybody who thinks Lebron is not arguably even the BEST passer in the game either is...

..a Lebron cynic
..a fan who cant yet concieve what passing skills means and how to measure it
..a fan who has not watched Lebron thoroughly
..a fan who thinks that "passing = assists"
..a fan who feels bad about not giving that title to a point-guard who does nothing but passes 24-7
..a fan with a combination of the above


Lebron is not the best assist man (he maybe could be though if he started PG and set his mind to it)..... but when talking about court vision, raw passing skills alone i dont see any other player in the league showing notably higher degree, accuracy & range of difficult passes (not to mention the speed those balls travel) than Lebron at that volume/consistency...

Look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

...and then compare that to anything.... and then also watch the games and see at what frequency & fortune Lebron does those passes compared to anybody else at this given moment....

I am not saying he is the best pure passer, but i am saying that i dont think its absurd to argue....

With this being said, i think Manu Ginobili is even more so underrated, his passing skills are easily one of the best...
http://i.imgur.com/NjrwffZ.jpg

[Droid101]

Anyway, of the players who play 30+ minutes, here are the top 10 in Assist rate (percentage of possessions that end in an assist for that player):

Ricky Rubio (42%)
Steve Blake (39%)
Chris Paul (38%)
Andre Iguodala (34%)
Jose Calderon (34%)
Greivis Vasquez (33%)
Kyle Lowry (32%)
Stephen Curry (30%)
Jeff Teague (30%)
Jrue Holiday (29%)

LeBron isn't even in the top ten this year. He's not the best passer in the league, or even in the top three.

[moe94]

Anyway, of the players who play 30+ minutes, here are the top 10 in Assist rate (percentage of possessions that end in an assist for that player):

How does that evaluate who's the best passer, though? It shows who's the most pass happy players.

[Eric Cartman]

How does that evaluate who's the best passer, though? It shows who's the most pass happy players.

isn't the whole point of passing getting assists?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Anyway, of the players who play 30+ minutes, here are the top 10 in Assist rate (percentage of possessions that end in an assist for that player):

Ricky Rubio (42%)
Steve Blake (39%)
Chris Paul (38%)
Andre Iguodala (34%)
Jose Calderon (34%)
Greivis Vasquez (33%)
Kyle Lowry (32%)
Stephen Curry (30%)
Jeff Teague (30%)
Jrue Holiday (29%)

LeBron isn't even in the top ten this year. He's not the best passer in the league, or even in the top three.


Irrelevant stat. Lebron has a higher career assist% than larry Bird but he is not a better passer than Larry was.

[Droid101]

How does that evaluate who's the best passer, though? It shows who's the most pass happy players.
Well, it certainly evaluates who is the better passer than "I think this dude is the best passer in the league cuz I say so!"

[Droid101]

Irrelevant stat. Lebron has a higher career assist% than larry Bird but he is not a better passer than Larry was.
If you're using the eye test, then LeBron doesn't win or come even close. Come on man.

[moe94]

Irrelevant stat. Lebron has a higher career assist% than larry Bird but he is not a better passer than Larry was.

In what capacity? Outside "he made some funny no look passes", what is backing up this opinion of yours. Statistics certainly don't back your case.

"Eye test" is absolutely meaningless. What does that shit even prove or even say? A lot of people would say Clyde was a great dunker and that is from their eye test. Me? I think he was pure trash. That's my eye test.

[Graviton]

isn't the whole point of passing getting assists?
I thought we are discussing passing skill and ability, measuring those based on regular season assist numbers doesn't even scratch the surface.

If Lebron wanted to he could average 10APG easily, with all that talent on his roster, but that wouldn't be the best option for his team. As much shit as James gets for statpading, I never get the sense he is trying to. On the other hand a lot of times watching Rubio, Paul, Rondo I can see they are trying their hardest to get assists first and foremost. While Lebron is trying to make the right play, whether it's scoring himself or passing to the open man. We saw when Kobe wanted he had that assist streak playing like a PG last year. All time great players have the ability to do that, just because they choose to not focus on 1 aspect alone doesn't mean they are not one of the best at it.

[Droid101]

If Lebron wanted to he could average 10APG easily,
Oh, another one of these posts? No wonder I have you ignored.

Trust me, if LeBron "wanted" to do something, he'd have done it. All of you "He could average 15 assists per game" or "he could average 37 points per game" if he wanted to are full of shit.

Do it or shut your mouth.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

First off, I think it's important to define what OP means by "passing". If we're talking literally the ability to throw the ball to a teammate or if we're talking about including stuff like Vision/Strength/Reacting to doubles/etc... For the former I think there are a number of guys you take over LeBron like Manu for instance. If it's the latter I'd take LeBron top 5. He isn't the flashiest passer but nobody throws a skip pass cross court for a wide open 3 like he does.

[Young X]

Maybe if you're talking about visually impressive passes. If you're talking about setting up teammates he's not, if you factor in passing turnovers he's not even close.

This is why just looking at highlight videos isn't the best way to judge passing ability, yeah those passes are impressive, but what about those same passes that led to turnovers that you don't see in highlight videos?

[Graviton]

Oh, another one of these posts? No wonder I have you ignored.

Trust me, if LeBron "wanted" to do something, he'd have done it. All of you "He could average 15 assists per game" or "he could average 37 points per game" if he wanted to are full of shit.

Do it or shut your mouth.
I think you need to see a therapist and work on your anger management issues. Having so much hate and negative attitude at your age is not healthy.

[Graviton]

Maybe if you're talking about visually impressive passes. If you're talking about setting up teammates he's not, if you factor in passing turnovers he's not even close.

This is why just looking at highlight videos isn't the best way to judge passing ability, yeah those passes are impressive, but what about those same passes that led to turnovers that you don't see in highlight videos?
You judge him by the fact he was the PG for the Olympic team and not Paul/Deron. Coack K trusted him above the others. There are certain things a 6'8 PG can do that a midget PG can't, some extra turnovers aren't an issue when the advantages you provide are so huge.

I am still waiting on the reasons why someone is a better passer than Lebron.

[Crafty]

Non guards? 1st

[moe94]

I am still waiting on the reasons why someone is a better passer than Lebron.

You dismissed them all (stats) and are stuck in your ways.

[tpols]

I think brons a great facilitator especially to 3 point shooters.. His passing in that sense is one of the best in the league. As far as how many different passes he can make, skill artistry type stuff Id take a handful over him.

[Young X]

You judge him by the fact he was the PG for the Olympic team and not Paul/Deron. Coack K trusted him above the others. There are certain things a 6'8 PG can do that a midget PG can't, some extra turnovers aren't an issue when the advantages you provide are so huge.

I am still waiting on the reasons why someone is a better passer than Lebron.He's the best player and best on-ball player in the world, why wouldn't they trust the most dominant player who also happens to be a perimeter player with the ball over them? You don't think scoring had anything to do with it? That doesn't mean sh!t.

[Graviton]

He's the best player and best on-ball player in the world, why wouldn't they trust the most dominant player who also happens to be a perimeter player? You don't think scoring had anything to do with it? That doesn't mean sh!t.
I think if Paul/Deron were much better playmakers he would use them, but since Lebron is just as good as them why downgrade. If you had a choice between a 6'8 PG and a 6'2 PG who would you choose?

It's the Olympic team, they are all amazing scorers. So you need someone to set them all up, and Coach K chose Lebron for that duty.

[Young X]

^ So you're ignoring assists, you're ignoring turnovers, you're ignoring accuracy, what's stopping you from saying he's the GOAT passer? :lol

...or do you actually think that?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

^ So you're ignoring assists, you're ignoring turnovers, you're ignoring accuracy, what's stopping you from saying he's the GOAT passer? :lol

...or do you actually think that?
Question for you:

Is Jeff Teague a better passer than Larry Bird?

[Young X]

Question for you:

Is Jeff Teague a better passer than Larry Bird?No, why?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

No, why?
Teague right now has a higher AST/TO and AST% than Larry Bird ever did.


EDIT: This point would probably be better to make to moe94 since he's the one pimping the stats.

[Droid101]

Teague right now has a higher AST/TO and AST% than Larry Bird ever did.


EDIT: This point would probably be better to make to moe94 since he's the one pimping the stats.
Are you saying you would expect a PF or SF to have a better AST/TO ratio or AST% than a full time PG?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Are you saying you would expect a PF or SF to have a better AST/TO ratio or AST% than a full time PG?
This is exactly the point I was trying to make. thanks.

[Fudge]

Chris Paul
Rajon Rondo
Ricky Rubio

Are all clearly better, so that's an automatic no to the OP's question.

He could also slide down the list because all these guys have cases

Jennings
Teague
Durant
Wade
Conley

[moe94]

Homey said Jennings.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Chris Paul
Rajon Rondo
Ricky Rubio

Are all clearly better, so that's an automatic no to the OP's question.

He could also slide down the list because all these guys have cases

Jennings
Teague
Durant
Wade
Conley
:biggums:

Neither of those 4 are better.

[Fudge]

8 APG bruv. Dat flashyness doe.

[moe94]

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. thanks.

What is your point? They should be held to a different standard? Fine. Just don't pretend like forwards that have vision are better passers than the best point guards.

[AintNoSunshine]

His size gives him an advantage over your pointguards, and overall I'd put him in my top 5. Meaning if I need someone to make a pass for a play to save my life, I wouldn't mind letting LeBron handle the basketball.

[Fudge]

:biggums:

Neither of those 4 are better.
Count bro. I put 5 down bro.

Oh, and I also forgot guys like Nash, Curry, M.Gasol, Batum.

ALL have cases. Definitely on the same tier as Bron as a passer.

[Graviton]

^ So you're ignoring assists, you're ignoring turnovers, you're ignoring accuracy, what's stopping you from saying he's the GOAT passer? :lol

...or do you actually think that?
Taking care of the ball isn't related to pure passing, I am talking about the actual passing skill of Lebron. He may not be as good as CP3 as far as ball security goes, but the actual passes he is able to make on a consistent basis are on another level. And cmon shorter guys will obviously have less turnovers, their dribble is lower, ball handling is better and they are more agile.

So even with his worse assist/turnover ratio, Lebron still has his other advantages like height/strength/vision that allow him to make passes that CP3 can't. CP3 may be better in one aspect, but Lebron is better in multiple others.

[entropy35]

Also wall. Lebron somewhere in the top 10.

[Micku]

Taking care of the ball isn't related to pure passing, I am talking about the actual passing skill of Lebron. He may not be as good as CP3 as far as ball security goes, but the actual passes he is able to make on a consistent basis are on another level. And cmon shorter guys will obviously have less turnovers, their dribble is lower, ball handling is better and they are more agile.

So even with his worse assist/turnover ratio, Lebron still has his other advantages like height/strength/vision that allow him to make passes that CP3 can't. CP3 may be better in one aspect, but Lebron is better in multiple others.

Well, CP3 is actually one of a kind in that aspect because he handles the ball so much and his TOs are so low. His career average is a 2.4 of TOs. THAT is amazing for a guy who controls the offense as much as he does. You check out the comparison for guys like Nash, Rose, Westbrook are all over 3 TOs a game for their careers.

Maybe there is a synenergy stat for it, but with the eye test it just seems that CP3 is the most accurate passer in the league. I know 82games have passing stats tho.

And LeBron is pretty ball dominant like a PG. He is a point forward afterall. But he has been doing it less and less since he's been a Miami heat.