Did anyone decline more than Amare?

[cos88]

from a top 10 player to one of the worst players in the game? and in just 4-5 years.


i can remember barkley or hakeem at toronto, but not as this bad and they were older.

he's not 35, just turned 31 2 weeks ago. wtf happend to him? injuries, too much money, his brother death? all of this?

[kells333]

Tmac went from top 5 player to DNP coaches decision throught last years playofs.

[Meticode]

from a top 10 player to one of the worst players in the game? and in just 4-5 years.


i can remember barkley or hakeem at toronto, but not as this bad and they were older.

he's not 35, just turned 31 2 weeks ago. wtf happend to him? injuries, too much money, his brother death? all of this?
Injuries.

The Suns medical staff told the organization to basically not resign him because they felt from analyzing his knees he would have knee troubles in a few years.

And behold he did.

[GabeIsGone]

Injuries.

The Suns medical staff told the organization to basically not resign him because they felt from analyzing his knees he would have knee troubles in a few years.

And behold he did.
Yup. If the Suns say your done....your done. They have by far the best medical staff in the league.

[gyu]

I remember Steve Kerr and suns were getting flack for not resigning him cuz of his knees. Now they look smart. I believe that lead to the eventual resignation of Kerr as gm

[DuMa]

cant call it a decline. his injuries were the direct reasons why he declined.

[gyu]

Oh and I also nominate Deron Williams.

[Nick Young]

He was always overrated and empty stats even in his prime anyways. Never got 10 boards a game, and his defense and boxing out was so horrible it didnt matter if he put up 29 every game, the opponents bigs were probably doing the same against Amare on the other end.

Empty numbers. The Monta Ellis of power forwards.

[D.J.]

He was never a top 10 player. Even if he scored 25 a game, he was an average rebounder at best for his size(a lot of his rebounds were from the Suns' fast pace style), a below average defender, and coasted through his athleticism in his early years.

And don't forget he had microfracture surgery before his 23rd birthday and this was before the procedure was even somewhat known. Him and Kenyon Martin were the first to have it and come back well. I commend Amare for being able to change his style of play after his surgery. But when you have major knee surgery at such a young age and further knee trouble at 27-28, you're on borrowed time.

[Ocks]

Probably CWebb after he went to Philly and then Detroit... Watching Amare now is like de ja vu

[Boomerang]

Does Nash in Lakers count?

[OldSkoolball#52]

Honestly, the most rapid decline might be Shaq.

Was still a certified beast the year he won a chip in Miami.

Proceded to not ever give a **** again in his career. Came back a total slob the next year and was passed around the Suns and Cavs and Celtics like a cold.

He was older than Amare by then of course, but still. Went from dominant to washed up pretty damn quick.

[OldSkoolball#52]

Does Nash in Lakers count?


Actually thats a pretty good one.

[Smoke117]

He was never a top 10 player. Even if he scored 25 a game, he was an average rebounder at best for his size(a lot of his rebounds were from the Suns' fast pace style), a below average defender, and coasted through his athleticism in his early years.

And don't forget he had microfracture surgery before his 23rd birthday and this was before the procedure was even somewhat known. Him and Kenyon Martin were the first to have it and come back well. I commend Amare for being able to change his style of play after his surgery. But when you have major knee surgery at such a young age and further knee trouble at 27-28, you're on borrowed time.


I agree, he was never a top 10 player in the NBA. He didn't do enough besides scoring to be put in the top 10.

[OldSkoolball#52]

I agree, he was never a top 10 player in the NBA. He didn't do enough besides scoring to be put in the top 10.


Not only that but even his scoring was inflated by Nash.


Not that Amare didnt have legit offensive firepower. But the numbers were probably enhanced by the system.

[Boomerang]

Iverson dropped pretty hard too. He was still averaging like maybe 20 points 7 assists?? on good efficiency on the Nuggets, then maybe 2-3 years later no one wanted him to start, and in the limited minutes he got, he didn't show that he still had it.

[moe94]

I'm starting to get the idea some of you people think LMA is better than peak Amare...

[Nick Young]

Honestly, the most rapid decline might be Shaq.

Was still a certified beast the year he won a chip in Miami.

Proceded to not ever give a **** again in his career. Came back a total slob the next year and was passed around the Suns and Cavs and Celtics like a cold.

He was older than Amare by then of course, but still. Went from dominant to washed up pretty damn quick.
He actually sucked that year in the playoffs and in the finals. Miami started winning when Riley started playing Shaq less minutes.

[Trentknicks]

Not only that but even his scoring was inflated by Nash.


Not that Amare didnt have legit offensive firepower. But the numbers were probably enhanced by the system.
His best year was probably the first one on the Knicks, where he was absolutely brilliant offensively. He also made the playoffs every year since him and Nash split, can Nash say the same?

Your the worst poster here, and it's not close.

[BigTicket]

Gilbert Arenas disappeared pretty damn quickly.

[The_Yearning]

:bowdown: MDA

He basically created Steve Nash and Amare.

[hawkfan]

:bowdown: MDA

He basically created Steve Nash and Amare.

Amare needs a point guard who can create shots for him, someone who can get to the rim.

Didn't the Knicks used to have a point guard like that, but they let him go, right?

[Out_In_Utah]

I'm starting to get the idea some of you people think LMA is better than peak Amare...

He is if you include defense.

[HylianNightmare]

His best year was probably the first one on the Knicks, where he was absolutely brilliant offensively. He also made the playoffs every year since him and Nash split, can Nash say the same?

Your the worst poster here, and it's not close.


this, he was making all the oh he needed steve nash crowd look foolish, it didn't translate to a ton of success but he was putting up numbers:rockon:

[RagaZ]

Yeah, he was brillant in 2010-11.

People forget that.

[ralph_i_el]

His best year was probably the first one on the Knicks, where he was absolutely brilliant offensively. He also made the playoffs every year since him and Nash split, can Nash say the same?

Your the worst poster here, and it's not close.

He put up better stats on better teams w/ nash. Are you really going to prop up Amare for making the playoffs, playing poorly and getting swept? When Nash was dragging teams of scrubs around by his teeth, with the phoenix medical staff keeping him alive like frankensteins monster?

The common theme of this "decline" thread is...
http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b619/alex_mcdonald2/exploding-knees_zps7c3c0961.png (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/alex_mcdonald2/media/exploding-knees_zps7c3c0961.png.html)

[D.J.]

His best year was probably the first one on the Knicks, where he was absolutely brilliant offensively. He also made the playoffs every year since him and Nash split, can Nash say the same?

Your the worst poster here, and it's not close.


That was not Amare's best year. Far from it. He attempted 19 shots a game, where as the highest after that were 16.7 and 15.7. He shot 50.2% from the field, which was his lowest since '04. He averaged 8.2 RPG, the second lowest of his career. He had a 56.5 TS%, his lowest since '04. His eFG% was also his lowest since '04.

All signs point to not being his best year. Did Nash make Amare? No, but he sure made his life a hell of a lot easier.

[GOBB]

Gilbert Arenas disappeared pretty damn quickly.

The only answer anyone should have said in this thread. :cheers:

[Bandito]

Amare needs a point guard who can create shots for him, someone who can get to the rim.

Didn't the Knicks used to have a point guard like that, but they let him go, right?
Yes but they trade for him again. Remember, Raymond Felton?:biggums:

[D.J.]

Yes but they trade for him again. Remember, Raymond Felton?:biggums:


They looked good early that year. Started 16-9, but fell to 28-26 when Melo played his first game as a Knick. Funny thing is when the Knicks were hot at any point from late 2010-early 2012, it was never because of Melo.

[magic chiongson]

lakers mitch richmond

[D.J.]

lakers mitch richmond



Mitch Richmond went from 23 PPG in '98 to 16 PPG in '01. Not nearly as much of a decline. Amare went from 25 PPG in 2011 to not even healthy in less than 2 years.

[tpols]

He was always overrated and empty stats even in his prime anyways. Never got 10 boards a game, and his defense and boxing out was so horrible it didnt matter if he put up 29 every game, the opponents bigs were probably doing the same against Amare on the other end.

Empty numbers. The Monta Ellis of power forwards.

29/13 with 2 blocks per game 54%FG against Dirk and Dallas in 05.

37/10 on 55%FG against prime Timmy and Spurs again in 05.

24/14 on 55%FG against Odom and LA in 07.

26/11 on 55%FG again against Tim Duncan and the Spurs in 07.

23/9 on 49%FG against Duncan and Spurs next year.

21/9 on 48%FG against Duncan and Spurs in 2010.

25/6 on 53%FG against Pau and Lakers in 2010.


Seriously? Look at how he performed next to all time great power forwards. Sure he had Steve Nash to help his game.. But Duncan had prime Manu Ginobili an amazing passer and playmaker, and prime Parker another amazing perimeter player. Pau and Odom had prime Kobe...

Amare was an amazing player at one time.

[D.J.]

29/13 with 2 blocks per game 54%FG against Dirk and Dallas in 05.


Dirk averaged 27/12/3/1.2/1.3 on 45% shooting and 38% from downtown.



37/10 on 55%FG against prime Timmy and Spurs again in 05.


Duncan averaged 27/14/3 with almost 2 BPG on almost 53% shooting.



24/14 on 55%FG against Odom and LA in 07.


Odom Game 1- 17/16 on 8/16 shooting
Odom Game 2- 10/10
Odom Game 3- 18/16
Odom Game 4- 19/13/5
Odom Game 5- 33/10 on 13/21 shooting



26/11 on 55%FG again against Tim Duncan and the Spurs in 07.


Duncan averaged 27/14 with over 4 BPG(including 9 in game 6) on over 57% shooting.



23/9 on 49%FG against Duncan and Spurs next year.


Duncan averaged 25/14 with over 2 BPG on just under 50% shooting.



21/9 on 48%FG against Duncan and Spurs in 2010.


A declining Duncan averaged 20/11 with 1.3 SPG and 2 BPG on over 55% shooting.



25/6 on 53%FG against Pau and Lakers in 2010.


Gasol averaged 20/7/4 with almost 2 BPG on over 56% shooting.



Seriously? Look at how he performed next to all time great power forwards. Sure he had Steve Nash to help his game.. But Duncan had prime Manu Ginobili an amazing passer and playmaker, and prime Parker another amazing perimeter player. Pau and Odom had prime Kobe...

Amare was an amazing player at one time.


As mentioned before, Amare's lack of defense ultimately negated whatever offensive contributions he made. And the Suns lost 4 of the 7 series you mentioned. Like that other poster said, even if Amare averaged 30 PPG or near it, he gave up just about as much.

We take Amare for what he was. A very explosive big man(pre-knee injury) who changed his game and bounced back very well, and who finished well at the rim while playing with a pass first point guard in a very fast paced style of play.

[Artillery]

29/13 with 2 blocks per game 54%FG against Dirk and Dallas in 05.

37/10 on 55%FG against prime Timmy and Spurs again in 05.

24/14 on 55%FG against Odom and LA in 07.

26/11 on 55%FG again against Tim Duncan and the Spurs in 07.

23/9 on 49%FG against Duncan and Spurs next year.

21/9 on 48%FG against Duncan and Spurs in 2010.

25/6 on 53%FG against Pau and Lakers in 2010.


Seriously? Look at how he performed next to all time great power forwards. Sure he had Steve Nash to help his game.. But Duncan had prime Manu Ginobili an amazing passer and playmaker, and prime Parker another amazing perimeter player. Pau and Odom had prime Kobe...

Amare was an amazing player at one time.

Parker was a terrible playoff performer back then. He didn't get decent until 2009/2010.

And the thread is correct. Amare was always overrated - he depended on his athleticism more than any other player in recent memory. As soon as age caught up with him, he became irrelevant due to a lack of any real basketball skills. Marion is still a pretty good basketball player at his advanced age and he's 4 years older than Amare. Then again, Marion was always more important to those Suns teams than Amare. In 2006, they lost Amare and the team didn't miss a beat. Still won a boatload of games and made it farther in the playoffs then any Amare Suns team up to that point. Shows how overrated Stoudemire's impact really was.

[tpols]

Dirk averaged 27/12/3/1.2/1.3 on 45% shooting and 38% from downtown.

Duncan averaged 27/14/3 with almost 2 BPG on almost 53% shooting.

Odom Game 1- 17/16 on 8/16 shooting
Odom Game 2- 10/10
Odom Game 3- 18/16
Odom Game 4- 19/13/5
Odom Game 5- 33/10 on 13/21 shooting

Duncan averaged 27/14 with over 4 BPG(including 9 in game 6) on over 57% shooting.

Duncan averaged 25/14 with over 2 BPG on just under 50% shooting.

A declining Duncan averaged 20/11 with 1.3 SPG and 2 BPG on over 55% shooting.

Gasol averaged 20/7/4 with almost 2 BPG on over 56% shooting.

All these numbers are equal or worse to what Amare put up... so what's your point?

If you're going to criticize Amare for letting Duncan and Dirk drop 27/10 and 27/12 on him, what will you say about them letting Amare drop 29/13 and 37/10 on even better percentages on them? Makes no sense.


Guy I quoted called Amare the big man version of monta ellis.. If Monta Ellis had 5+ H2H series against Kobe and Wade and put up similar numbers to them he would be known as a much, much, much better player than hes known for now and rightfully so.


In 2006, they lost Amare and the team didn't miss a beat. .
What? First off, they made it to the WCF the previous year.. so how did they make it farther in 06 when they got bounced out in the same round?

Secondly, Suns were getting raped by Lakers in 06 down 3-1 and had a very tough series to pull out w/o Amare. Very next year he comes back and they shit on LA quick.

What are you smoking? Please pass.

[D.J.]

All these numbers are equal or worse to what Amare put up... so what's your point?

If you're going to criticize Amare for letting Duncan and Dirk drop 27/10 and 27/12 on him, what will you say about them letting Amare drop 29/13 and 37/10 on even better percentages on them? Makes no sense.


Guy I quoted called Amare the big man version of monta ellis.. If Monta Ellis had 5+ H2H series against Kobe and Wade and put up similar numbers to them he would be known as a much, much, much better player than hes known for now and rightfully so.


My point is that I'm correct and that the numbers are equal or BETTER, not worse. Amare has the edge on Dirk on '05, though Duncan averaged 4 more rebounds and blocked more shots while shooting just 2% less from the field. Odom dropped a double-double on him every game, including 16 rebounds twice. Duncan was clearly better in '07 and '08. They were about equal in '10 numbers wise, though Duncan shot a significantly higher percentage. Pau in '10 put up better overall numbers on a higher shooting percentage.

It makes perfect sense. Amare(even if he performed well offensively) did performed almost the exact opposite defensively. His lack of defense and his matchups playing equal to or better than him makes him a defensive liability and negates his offensive input. Amare putting up 26/11 on 55% shooting means nothing when Duncan is putting up 27/14 with 4 BPG and shooting an even higher percentage. His offensive input means very little when Lamar Odom drops a double-double on him in literally every single game in the series. 5 consecutive double-doubles.

[D.J.]

What? First off, they made it to the WCF the previous year.. so how did they make it farther in 06 when they got bounced out in the same round?


He said they didn't miss a beat and he was right. They still made the WCF without him.



Secondly, Suns were getting raped by Lakers in 06 down 3-1 and had a very tough series to pull out w/o Amare. Very next year he comes back and they shit on LA quick.


Nash averaging 14 APG(including 23 in game 4) had nothing to do with it, I'm sure. Marion averaging 18/10 with 1.8 SPG and 1 BPG, and recording double-doubles in 4 of the 5 games had nothing to do with it either.

[tpols]

My point is that I'm correct and that the numbers are equal or BETTER, not worse. Amare has the edge on Dirk on '05, though Duncan averaged 4 more rebounds and blocked more shots while shooting just 2% less from the field. Odom dropped a double-double on him every game, including 16 rebounds twice. Duncan was clearly better in '07 and '08. They were about equal in '10 numbers wise, though Duncan shot a significantly higher percentage. Pau in '10 put up better overall numbers on a higher shooting percentage.

It makes perfect sense. Amare(even if he performed well offensively) did performed almost the exact opposite defensively. His lack of defense and his matchups playing equal to or better than him makes him a defensive liability and negates his offensive input. Amare putting up 26/11 on 55% shooting means nothing when Duncan is putting up 27/14 with 4 BPG and shooting an even higher percentage. His offensive input means very little when Lamar Odom drops a double-double on him in literally every single game in the series. 5 consecutive double-doubles.
So the numbers are close.. and you're saying that Amare's impact didnt matter because lets say, at absolute worst, he was outperformed marginally by a few rebounds?


Odom dropped 19/11/5 on 50%FG in 2006 against LA with NO Amare... his team almost pulled the series out and gave Suns a tough time.



Odom then dropped 19/13/2 on 48%FG in 2007 against LA WITH Amare... 2 more rebounds per game but half the assists and less efficiency and they proceeded to get spanked.


That's.. no impact? If what you're saying was true.. that Amare's offense was completely cancelled out by his lack of defense. 1) Odom wouldve shot better and scored more with Amare in the game than without.. which he didnt. And 2) it wouldve been a hard fought series just like in 06.. which it wasnt. With Amare Suns steamrolled them.


So no.. it makes no sense. You saying Amare had no impact because he was poor defensively is like saying Nash made no impact because he was even poorer defensively.. which is a joke.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Mitch Richmond went from 23 PPG in '98 to 16 PPG in '01.
Damn, I didn't realize Mitch was still that productive of a player in 2001. 16 ppg is pretty damn solid. That's a basket and a half off from Scottie Pippen's career averages. Mitch Richmond is such a slept on player, it isn't even funny.

[tpols]

Nash averaging 14 APG(including 23 in game 4) had nothing to do with it, I'm sure. Marion averaging 18/10 with 1.8 SPG and 1 BPG, and recording double-doubles in 4 of the 5 games had nothing to do with it either.
Of course Nash's assists are going to go up when he's playing with Amare one of the greatest finishers ever as opposed to his replacement that series Boris Diaw.. who while a good player doesnt have near the explosiveness around the paint or quickness in the PnR game as the screen setter and roll man.

You're proving my point for me..

[D.J.]

So the numbers are close.. and you're saying that Amare's impact didnt matter because lets say, at absolute worst, he was outperformed marginally by a few rebounds?


What good is 25 PPG when his man is scoring about as many, while actually performing at the other end of the court? When you score 25 and give up just as many or even more, your offensive input means a lot less.



Odom dropped 19/11/5 on 50%FG in 2006 against LA with NO Amare... his team almost pulled the series out and gave Suns a tough time.


Yeah... and? And he put up a double-double in all 5 games against the Suns WITHAmare the following year. The Suns were simply better than the Lakers. That's why they won.



Odom then dropped 19/13/2 on 48%FG in 2007 against LA WITH Amare... 2 more rebounds per game but half the assists and less efficiency and they proceeded to get spanked.


And again, the Suns were significantly better. Did you think the Lakers were going to win when the best players after Kobe and Odom were Smush Parker and Luke Walton?



That's.. no impact? If what you're saying was true.. that Amare's offense was completely cancelled out by his lack of defense. 1) Odom wouldve shot better and scored more with Amare in the game than without.. which he didnt. And 2) it wouldve been a hard fought series just like in 06.. which it wasnt. With Amare Suns steamrolled them.


I have no idea what you're babbling about. The Suns were the better team. They beat them with and without Amare. I don't understand what you're trying to prove.



So no.. it makes no sense. You saying Amare had no impact because he was poor defensively is like saying Nash made no impact because he was even poorer defensively.. which is a joke.


Nash's offensive input is negated by his poor defense. That's why they lost games and series to good teams, even with home court.

[D.J.]

Of course Nash's assists are going to go up when he's playing with Amare one of the greatest finishers ever as opposed to his replacement that series Boris Diaw.. who while a good player doesnt have near the explosiveness around the paint or quickness in the PnR game as the screen setter and roll man.

You're proving my point for me..


Um no, you proved my point. I'm 100% accurate in my assessment. Most of those in this thread agree that Amare was a solid offensive player who's life was made easier by Nash. The knowledgable posters here also agree that Nash did not make Amare, which he proved his first year in New York. We also agree that Amare was an average rebounder at best for his size and was a below average defender who's offensive input was made almost irrelevant by his inability to contain guys like Duncan, and got roughed up by Odom. Is it a coincedence Amare and Nash never made the Finals, despite multiple 60+ win seasons? No, it's not. You can score 25 PPG or average 15/12. You give up just as many points and more rebounds to opposing bigs who shoot higher percentages, you're going to lose.

[D.J.]

Damn, I didn't realize Mitch was still that productive of a player in 2001. 16 ppg is pretty damn solid. That's a basket and a half off from Scottie Pippen's career averages. Mitch Richmond is such a slept on player, it isn't even funny.


Playing just about your entire prime on sh*tty Sacramento teams will do that.

[tpols]

What good is 25 PPG when his man is scoring about as many, while actually performing at the other end of the court? When you score 25 and give up just as many or even more, your offensive input means a lot less.
So.. Dirk had negative impact in 05 then. He gave up more points on better effiency and got outrebounded. Zero impact for Dirk there. Also negative impact for Odom since he got outplayed across the board. And negative impact for Duncan in a few years where he got outshot and outscored.

What good is Duncan's 27ppg if hes giving up 37ppg on 55% shooting to Amare. Duncan = negative impact player.





Yeah... and? And he put up a double-double in all 5 games against the Suns WITHAmare the following year. The Suns were simply better than the Lakers. That's why they won.
That goes against your point:oldlol: You were just criticizing Amare for letting Odom grab double digit rebounds every game. And when he does the same against his replacement its just.. fine? Meanwhile he gets outrebounded by Amare himself 14 to 13.






And again, the Suns were significantly better. Did you think the Lakers were going to win when the best players after Kobe and Odom were Smush Parker and Luke Walton?

Those were the next best players on the 06 team as well.. and they gave the suns fits. This is all very simple. It's a perfect experiment.

Kobe + Odom + scrubs versus Suns minus Amare

Kobe + Odom + scrubs versus Suns PLUS Amare


There was no major difference between BOTH teams from year one to year two except for Amare's presence. And with Amare they looked FAR more impressive and handled them with ease comparatively.

Thats no impact right there.




I have no idea what you're babbling about. The Suns were the better team. They beat them with and without Amare. I don't understand what you're trying to prove.
You dont want to examine the difference. You're being a coward.

[tpols]

Um no, you proved my point. I'm 100% accurate in my assessment. Most of those in this thread agree that Amare was a solid offensive player who's life was made easier by Nash. The knowledgable posters here also agree that Nash did not make Amare, which he proved his first year in New York.
Oh of course Amare's life was made easier by Nash.. but the reverse is true as well.. It's a two way street called chemistry. Amare as your PnR man over Diaw or whoever average player you want to throw in as a replacement doesnt run aas well as Amare+ Nash. He's one of the greatest finishers and roll mans ever. Give Amare some gdamn credit. It isnt 100% one way or another.. its a relationship and a balance.