The Center position is dead.

[fpliii]

Can't defend Dwight anymore. Top defender, but even on that end his impact is limited. **** him.

Stretch 4s and mobile big man defenders are the future of the position. Lame.

Happy Thanksgiving folks.

[STATUTORY]

it was just a poor era, I see a few promising talent coming up right now,
the last decade of the center position was devastated by injuries to Oden, Bynum, and Yao. If those three weren't so injury prone, it would not have been so bad

and dwight would have been in his rightful place as the alonzo mourning of his generation

[Brook(lyn)Lopez]

Center position is in much better hands than shooting guard....

When old, washed up and injured Kobe is still a top 3 SG, and James Harden is too, you have a problem.

[CelticBaller]

Drummond is here to save it

[moe94]

Center position is in much better hands than shooting guard....

When old, washed up and injured Kobe is still a top 3 SG, and James Harden is too, you have a problem.

PG started doing all the scoring.

[Doranku]

What's more dead, the Center position or the Eastern Conference?

[moe94]

What's more dead, the Center position or the Eastern Conference?

Andrew Wiggins hype.

[Peteballa]

it was just a poor era, I see a few promising talent coming up right now,
the last decade of the center position was devastated by injuries to Oden, Bynum, and Yao. If those three weren't so injury prone, it would not have been so bad

and dwight would have been in his rightful place as the alonzo mourning of his generation

Don't insult Zo like that. If Dwight had 1/10 of the heart Zo had, he would have won a championship by now.

[WindmiLL]

What's more dead, the Center position or the Eastern Conference?


Kobe's legs

[Doranku]

Kobe's legs
:roll: @ you switching to an alt to make this post.


f@ggot beta

[moe94]

and dwight would have been in his rightful place as the alonzo mourning of his generation

But Dwight was better than all of those guys...

It's almost like people forget how good he was and probably still is.

[Mr. Jabbar]

when dwight howard is regarded as the best center by many you could say the center position is absolutely dead. what a joke

[SpecialQue]

What brought this on? I remember you being one of the few Laker fans who defended this clown.

[qrich]

Not any more than the shooting guard position is.

[fpliii]

What brought this on? I remember you being one of the few Laker fans who defended this clown.

Been watching a lot of 60s-90s centers recently.

I don't know if it's a talent problem, maybe it's just rules and how they're being taught when they come up.

Yeah, I've defended him as much as anyone because I'm a defense-first (especially with our current defense), and bigs guy in general, but I'm just fed up at this point.

Rules don't let centers play a traditional back-to-the-basket game without getting called for fouls, and off-ball double teams on the block are lame as hell. Coaches are also afraid to put any players on the court who don't have 3pt range (at most they'll have one non-shooter today).

The game has changed.

[Bandito]

But Dwight was better than all of those guys...

It's almost like people forget how good he was and probably still is.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :facepalm

[moe94]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :facepalm

Are you insane or something? Bynum? Yao "10 games a season" Ming? 07 Yao was his peak. No GM ever would take him or any of them over Howard. I love how it's cool to just shit on the best C of the generation because he's an asshole or whatever.

[alenleomessi]

whats wrong with mobile big man defenders? :confusedshrug:

[Rose'sACL]

Been watching a lot of 60s-90s centers recently.

I don't know if it's a talent problem, maybe it's just rules and how they're being taught when they come up.

Yeah, I've defended him as much as anyone because I'm a defense-first (especially with our current defense), and bigs guy in general, but I'm just fed up at this point.

Rules don't let centers play a traditional back-to-the-basket game without getting called for fouls, and off-ball double teams on the block are lame as hell. Coaches are also afraid to put any players on the court who don't have 3pt range (at most they'll have one non-shooter today).

The game has changed.
it is a rules problem mostly because if the rules are pretty much against you if don't have a good jumper then most centers will turn into pfs on the offensive end as there is pretty much same reward with less physical play when you can hit a jumper like duncan.
why would young players learn post moves really well when they see that as soon as you catch the ball you are going to be doubled?
i think that in today's nba centers need to have one or 2 post moves so that other team has to double them no matter what and then they should be able to be pass to the guy who is open.
there is no way to score as much in the post as players used to do in the past without a good jumper like kobe if you're not a center and if you are a center than just try to be a good passer so that you can pass as soon as the other team doubles you as there are a lot of good 3 pt shooters in the league now.
lebron who was a bad player in the post absolutely murders pretty much anyone 1-on-1 in the post now even though he doesn't have the best footwork which forces teams to double him as soon as he catches the ball near paint which leaves an open man.
Dwight should be ashamed not to have done at least that much.

also, people who say that big men from earlier eras would murder today's centers forget that today's centers are not great offensively but defensively they are still pretty good.

[0000000]

Players are in general much more athletic now. The game is faster than it's ever been. I'm not sure traiditional big men is what you want in the league today.
For example, take last year's Lakers and this year's Nets. Talented teams but old. And so easy to beat them. Athleticism is so essential nowadays.

The last dominant traditional center IMO was Bynum in his last season with the Lakers...or at least he played like it...and still, it was too slow. You justc an't play that game today, for him to take his time and get in position, play back to basket and all...it takes too much time.

Best centers today are Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins. Davis especially is what you want from a center.

[fpliii]

whats wrong with mobile big man defenders? :confusedshrug:

They're fine in general, but I'm not looking forward to Ryno-AD frontcourts on every squad (that's not a bad one, but most will have shells of each player at the 4/5).

[0000000]

Remember how awful Shaq was at defending the pick and roll? And the way the game is today, it would be even more of an issue. You need mobile defenders. The game changed. IMO anyway. Both due to rule changes and improved athleticism at all positions. Game is perhaps a little bit too fast for traditional centers. Some teams still do slow it down and have success at it though. Namely, Pacers and Grizzlies.

[LAZERUSS]

When a 37 year old Duncan dominates in a Finals, and the lumbering Roy Hibbard dominates in the playoffs...well, that is all you need to know. The great centers of past eras would just wipe the floor with these clowns.

[CelticBaller]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :facepalm
He was, are you RG?

[9erempiree]

If we put the golden era of Centers in today's league, there is no doubt they would all be the best players in today's league. Today's era is watered down and very hard to watch.

[Nash]

The NBA is too good, fast and skilful for big and clumsy centers to dominate it.

[Micku]

Players are in general much more athletic now. The game is faster than it's ever been. I'm not sure traiditional big men is what you want in the league today.
For example, take last year's Lakers and this year's Nets. Talented teams but old. And so easy to beat them. Athleticism is so essential nowadays.

The last dominant traditional center IMO was Bynum in his last season with the Lakers...or at least he played like it...and still, it was too slow. You justc an't play that game today, for him to take his time and get in position, play back to basket and all...it takes too much time.

Best centers today are Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins. Davis especially is what you want from a center.


It depends on what you mean by that. In terms of playing fast? It's not faster than the 80s and below. They used to run up the court and do their plays quicker because they don't want to give the defense time to response. The games are also crunched into together more. So, you'll see back to back playoff games more so than you do now.

In terms of players being faster on average? Sure. There are a bunch of quicker point guards.

And with the traditional big man, it also depends what you mean. Ewing, Hakeem, and Kareem could play in today's league because they don't just attack the paint. They can also hit a jumpshot. Ewing and Hakeem usually just shoot jumpshots, but they can go inside as well. Kareem could do it anywhere. A guy like David Robinson has a better face up game than he did a post game. Vlade Divac could go inside and out as well.

The major thing that changed is the mindset. Coaches won't say "Give the big guy the ball and get out of the way" as much as they would in the past decades. Plus the centers today won't demand the ball that much. Even if they did, they won't do that much with it.

And traditional big men is probably the most important aspect of basketball. I don't think any team can win without some form of an inside presence to get rebounds, protect the paint and a little bit of a post game. That's why Spo of the Heat always say that Chris Bosh is their most important player. He does add some interior defense and LeBron would a bit of a post game.

The problem with today is that there is no big men that know how to take advantage of their size on the offense. The last guy to do that was Yao Ming where he averaged 25 ppg before he got injured. And if he can do it, why can't guys like Hakeem, Kareem, Shaq, and David Robinson. If he can get the FGA, why not those guys? They are not like Dwight Howard who touch the ball but don't do anything with it.

[Orlando Magic]

It's not just the center position.

The entire league is dying. Most guys coming up nowadays have absolutely no idea how to play team ball on the same level as previous generations... on top of that, rule changes keep watering down the product for the purists.

But yes, centers seem particularly effected.. that's because of one Michael Jordan. It's not his fault, mind you, but at no point in history has one individual changed the future of how individuals are developed and thus how the entire sport is actually played on the court more than this guy.

He was so ****ing good, gifted athletically, and dominant, and he got so much hype and praise that everyone grew up wanting to be him... or at least, in his shoes.

So you've got a ton of ignorant players coming up that don't realize that Jordan was one of the most fundamentally sound players the sport has ever seen trying to emulate him and failing miserably.

The only perimeter player we've seen that still played to win and not just individual glory above all else is LeBron and that was probably just a fluke.

Centers grew up wanting to be Jordan and nobody learns post moves anymore. It's not as glamorous as driving and dunking.

I personally loved watching Shaq more than anyone else because of his sheer dominance but most people don't view things that way because they can't relate... I was always bigger than everyone else so I could... oh well... time marches on.

[outbreak]

another thing to consider is how big men are taught in the states. Most teams they play on as a young player won't be teaching them the fundamentals and back to the basket game like they used to, more and more we are seeing big men who played guard spots or played in the durant mold rather than the traditional mold, once they hit the NBA and aren't quick enough to play like that they struggle to learn the skills they should have learnt at a young age. There's a reason most of the centres who don't rely on athleticism and have great fundamentals and footwork have all been internationals lately while most of the american big men are projects or stretch players. Most kids just aren't taught old school centre skills as a kid now

[moe94]

The NBA is too good, fast and skilful for big and clumsy centers to dominate it.

Is that why Hibbert had his way with the Heat looking like Wilt Chamberlain?

[Heavincent]

Center position is in much better hands than shooting guard....

When old, washed up and injured Kobe is still a top 3 SG, and James Harden is too, you have a problem.

Old man Kobe last year was far better than Dwight ever was.

[kurt_rambis]

Is that why Hibbert had his way with the Heat looking like Wilt Chamberlain?
22 and 10 against birdmanbirdman is chamberlain-esque now?

i love that the center position is dying out. oafs can't just get by on being bigger than everyone else anymore. give me small ball anyday

[Jameerthefear]

Old man Kobe last year was far better than Dwight ever was.
lol no.

[9erempiree]

It's not just the center position.

The entire league is dying. Most guys coming up nowadays have absolutely no idea how to play team ball on the same level as previous generations... on top of that, rule changes keep watering down the product for the purists.

But yes, centers seem particularly effected.. that's because of one Michael Jordan. It's not his fault, mind you, but at no point in history has one individual changed the future of how individuals are developed and thus how the entire sport is actually played on the court more than this guy.

He was so ****ing good, gifted athletically, and dominant, and he got so much hype and praise that everyone grew up wanting to be him... or at least, in his shoes.

So you've got a ton of ignorant players coming up that don't realize that Jordan was one of the most fundamentally sound players the sport has ever seen trying to emulate him and failing miserably.

The only perimeter player we've seen that still played to win and not just individual glory above all else is LeBron and that was probably just a fluke.

Centers grew up wanting to be Jordan and nobody learns post moves anymore. It's not as glamorous as driving and dunking.

I personally loved watching Shaq more than anyone else because of his sheer dominance but most people don't view things that way because they can't relate... I was always bigger than everyone else so I could... oh well... time marches on.

Just stop it.

Want to be Michael Jordan? A lot of these kids coming up did not see MJ come and play.

If you want to blame someone blame Kobe. He has just as much to do with people wanting to play SG than anyone of this new crop of players.

A lot of people want to be a hero like Kobe and grew up watching him.

[Jameerthefear]

Just stop it.

Want to be Michael Jordan? A lot of these kids coming up did not see MJ come and play.

If you want to blame someone blame Kobe. He has just as much to do with people wanting to play SG than anyone of this new crop of players.

A lot of people want to be a hero like Kobe and grew up watching him.
:roll:

[moe94]

:roll:

He has a point. Iverson/Kobe influenced this new crop more than Jordan. He has grounds.

[Micku]

It's not just the center position.

The entire league is dying. Most guys coming up nowadays have absolutely no idea how to play team ball on the same level as previous generations... on top of that, rule changes keep watering down the product for the purists.

But yes, centers seem particularly effected.. that's because of one Michael Jordan. It's not his fault, mind you, but at no point in history has one individual changed the future of how individuals are developed and thus how the entire sport is actually played on the court more than this guy.

He was so ****ing good, gifted athletically, and dominant, and he got so much hype and praise that everyone grew up wanting to be him... or at least, in his shoes.

So you've got a ton of ignorant players coming up that don't realize that Jordan was one of the most fundamentally sound players the sport has ever seen trying to emulate him and failing miserably.

The only perimeter player we've seen that still played to win and not just individual glory above all else is LeBron and that was probably just a fluke.

Centers grew up wanting to be Jordan and nobody learns post moves anymore. It's not as glamorous as driving and dunking.

I personally loved watching Shaq more than anyone else because of his sheer dominance but most people don't view things that way because they can't relate... I was always bigger than everyone else so I could... oh well... time marches on.

Disagree about that. Teamplay actually got a lot better over the years especially compared to the early 00s. There was a stat on NBATV that showed the number of isolation plays going down year by year now. The league got much better at it. While it's still not 80s or early 90s teamplay, it's better than it was in the early 00s.

And I agree about the Michael Jordan deal. Case in point: the media talking about "Who's the next Michael Jordan?" and everybody comparing every single perimeter superstar to him. Jeez. But 9erempiree does have a point about Kobe being more of influence on the kids nowadays than Jordan was. But it was a domino effect. That is changing atm I feel tho since LeBron is carrying the major influence. Still no center influence because all of them aren't as good as the the 90s centers.

[9erempiree]

Just look at the influence Kobe has on Lebron. Lebron is much more fearless now and he's developed a midrange and post game. Something he didn't have coming into the league.

Kobe calling out Lebron in allstar game and the Olympics helped him become who he is now.

As much as people hate Kobe, he had a huge influence.

[mikek85]

Are you insane or something? Bynum? Yao "10 games a season" Ming? 07 Yao was his peak. No GM ever would take him or any of them over Howard. I love how it's cool to just shit on the best C of the generation because he's an asshole or whatever.

Dwight is a terrible waste of talent. He's also terrible at offense. Do you watch basketball?

[sportjames23]

What's more dead, the Center position or the Eastern Conference?

SilkkTheShocker's chances at getting pvssy.

[9erempiree]

Disagree about that. Teamplay actually got a lot better over the years especially compared to the early 00s. There was a stat on NBATV that showed the number of isolation plays going down year by year now. The league got much better at it. While it's still not 80s or early 90s teamplay, it's better than it was in the early 00s.

And I agree about the Michael Jordan deal. Case in point: the media talking about "Who's the next Michael Jordan?" and everybody comparing every single perimeter superstar to him. Jeez.

Team play is fool's gold in today's league. It's just that players don't have the ability to play ISO. A lack of skill and relying on athleticism. A lot of players today are a product of the offensive system.

"Who's the next MJ" topics are extinct. They already found him, Kobe Bryant.

[Marchesk]

So Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson - those kind of guys wouldn't be great in today's game, because ... point guards are more athletic now?

Other than possibly Lebron, what player are you taking over one of the great centers in their prime today? Go ahead, tell me you're taking Goatbrook or Kyrie Irving over Hakeem.

What do you think prime Hakeem would do to Miami?

[sportjames23]

Team play is fool's gold in today's league. It's just that players don't have the ability to play ISO. A lack of skill and relying on athleticism. A lot of players today are a product of the offensive system.

"Who's the next MJ" topics are extinct. They already found him, Kobe Bryant.


Really? Is that why ESPN and others shifted from comparing Kobe to MJ to now comparing Lebron to MJ?

[9erempiree]

So Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson - those kind of guys wouldn't be great in today's game, because ... point guards are more athletic now?

Other than possibly Lebron, what player are you taking over one of the great centers in their prime today? Go ahead, tell me you're taking Goatbrook or Kyrie Irving over Hakeem.

What do you think prime Hakeem would do to Miami?

I'm not even sure if I would take Lebron. Lebron is a system player and product of Miami's offense.

[moe94]

I'm not even sure if I would take Lebron. Lebron is a system player and product of Miami's offense.

:rolleyes:

And in Cleveland, he was a system player getting his stats off the work of Boobie and Varajao.

[0000000]

lol no.

Lol yes.

[Jameerthefear]

Lol yes.
i mean if you legit think this then you might be retarded so k

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Lol yes.
Dwight was arguably (with Lebron) the best player in the NBA in 2011. Should've won mvp.

[9erempiree]

:rolleyes:

And in Cleveland, he was a system player getting his stats off the work of Boobie and Varajao.

They have similar offensive systems. Lebron with high usage and you have shooters lurking. Same scheme but Miami is much more loaded.

When was the last time Lebron had to carry his team.

He's only averaging 15 shots a game and 3rd in scoring. That is a product of a system and not an individual feat.

Please don't bring up, if he shoots more he would be averaging 40 because we know that's not how basketball works. The more you shoot the worse your percentages are.

Remember "dare you to shoot" defense? A guy that is dared to shoot and is only taking 15 shots a game at 60%, tells you it's a product of the system. Usually guys that are scoring at a volume wouldn't be dared like that.

[HylianNightmare]

The game has changed.
getting old:cry:

[Orlando Magic]

9er you're right about a lot of them being influenced by Kobe now... but you do realize that Kobe is the one individual that has made the league that made copying Jordan his lifelong obsession, right?

I mean, Kobe probably *********ed furiously in high school to the idea of being Jordan. He copies his mannerisms, moves on the court, whatever...

And thus if they were influenced by Kobe, that is primarily because of Jordan. And no, it's not the same as Dr. J influencing Jordan because Kobe is a fifth page carbon copy of Jordan... Jordan wasn't a copy of anyone.

It all stems to Jordan... and yes, even on ESPN, you will never hear the words "who will be the next Kobe?"... ever.

[Fatstogey]

Can't defend Dwight anymore. Top defender, but even on that end his impact is limited. **** him.

Stretch 4s and mobile big man defenders are the future of the position. Lame.

Happy Thanksgiving folks.

The facts are we live in a different world. 20 year sago just beign 7' was good enough. But now the average level of athelticism of regular nba players has increased. Players are too fast, have too much game knowledge.

Back then it was "hey guy, ur big come play basektball." Now you actually have to have skill to be noticed. So they take the players who are highlyskilled vs grabbing some huge guy and training him like they did back in teh day.

Those dudes from yesteryear would not do as well in todays league. TEam defense is better, individual defense is better.

All those old clips of Wilt, the defense he wa sup against was ****ing laughable. It looked like an nba player vs jv high school team. it would nto go the same in todays league. He would not score 100 points anymore. none of them would.

[L.Kizzle]

Rony Seilkaly would dominate in todays league.

[TonyMontana]

If you put Shaq/Wilt whoever in todays league they wouldn't be as successfull either. With the way the game is officiated post defenders are allowed to be extremely physical with post players where it is extremely rare for a foul to be called in a postup situation. If the offensive player gives any kind of physicality back(like Shaq would do) they would be called for a foul, or the defender would flop forcing a foul.

Posting up is also extremely exhausting for your bigman. It's much more efficient to get a perimeter player driving to the rim for your baskets/free throw attempts with how easy it is to get a foul called for little guys.

New 7 footer role is to finish around the rim, rebound and protect the rim at a high level. Don't undersell this role though as it is still the most important on the team and if a guy does those 3 things at an elite level he is worth 15 million per year.

Part of why Dwight looked better offensively in Orlando is due to being younger, but also because that team had perfect spacing for a post up player. If you can't post up in Orando don't even try. 4 three point threats with him on the floor at all times. His new frontcourt partner in LA and Houston has been Gasol and Asik. Both good players, but they don't have the range to help Dwight have more space.

Your 4 needs to have a jumpshot, preferably to the threepoint range for even more spacing. Guys like Bosh/KG will do though, but average height 4s who play primarily inside like Kenneth Faried have little value in today's NBA.