Is the Sabonis legend justified or is a myth?

[moe94]

His fans have some insane ideas on what his potential was, but are they really that off base?

Dude averaged 15/10 has a broken down old man, absolutely destroyed by injuries. :biggums:

I don't believe he's the Shaq + Robinson hybrid his fans claim him to be, but considering what he did at age 33, I think he could have legit dominated the NBA.

[dgaras]

we are looking at 20 ppg. he wasn't a selfish guy.

20-24 ppg
13 rpg
5-7 apg
3 bpg


i dont care who you are, that would have been top 5

[moe94]

we are looking at 20 ppg. he wasn't a selfish guy.

20-24 ppg
13 rpg
5-7 apg
3 bpg


i dont care who you are, that would have been top 5

Try top 2, at worst.

[Round Mound]

Watch a HEALTHY 1986 Sabonis and See For Yourself...

[Kblaze8855]

I loved him. I wish I could have old Blazers Sabonis on the Bulls forever.

[dgaras]

Try top 2, at worst.

i didnt want to get any posters riled up.

he would have been number 1

27 & 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I6dKuQ4wc8

21 & 20 & some of the most amazing passes ever. look at how everyone runs the floor the second sabonis gets the rebound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqceh-0Qisk

[Kblaze8855]

I love a great passing bigman. And when hes got outlet passing with it?

Look at the way he catches it and instantly finds a guard or gets it out to someone to start the break. I hate seeing bum centers slowing down the team taking 4 seconds to give it up after a rebound.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I love a great passing bigman. And when hes got outlet passing with it?

Look at the way he catches it and instantly finds a guard or gets it out to someone to start the break. I hate seeing bum centers slowing down the team taking 4 seconds to give it up after a rebound.
This is a pet peeve of mine also.

[cos88]

What a HEALTHY 1986 Sabonis and See For Yourself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_mDTLphIVY

[Xiao Yao You]

I thought he was one of the best despite being broken down. His game went way beyond stats. The guy was a pleasure to watch play.

[kNicKz]

Sabonis had insane basketball IQ. He knew where offensive rebounds would fall , where to be to score, the positions of all of his teammates at all times, and had great block anticipation. He would be the best C in the league if he played today

[iamgine]

Sabonis had insane basketball IQ. He knew where offensive rebounds would fall , where to be to score, the positions of all of his teammates at all times, and had great block anticipation. He would be the best C in the league if he played today
Better than Bargnani?:wtf:

[moe94]

Better than Bargnani?:wtf:

Bargs is the deadliest offensive big in the game today and has been since the 08 season. His defense is suspect but with some work, I can see him as a first team all defense guy. His shooting is just extraordinary and unseen from a big in any era. The only bad aspect of his game is that he's so damn good that he decides to coast on his peers and that sometimes makes him appear worse than he really is.

[Teanett]

totally justified.
the most mobile + coordinated 7'4'' human to walk the earth and he was a great basketball player too.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Bargs is the deadliest offensive big in the game today and has been since the 08 season. His defense is suspect but with some work, I can see him as a first team all defense guy. His shooting is just extraordinary and unseen from a big in any era. The only bad aspect of his game is that he's so damn good that he decides to coast on his peers and that sometimes makes him appear worse than he really is.
Please be sarcasm.

[reppy]

I know Maurice Cheek gushed about him. Even when he was physically broken down, he was still such an asset.

[Nick Young]

Yao Ming mixed with Shaq only more mobile and legit 3 point range. I believe he could have dominated the NBA in his prime.

[get these NETS]

Bill Walton, who is no stranger to hyperbole, said that Sabonis was a 7 foot Larry Bird.

I wouldn't got that far, but for a guy who was himself a skilled big man and fmvp and who played with peak Bird to say that...you've got to believe that young Sabonis was the real deal.

my only question is why do sabonis and ray liotta (goodfellas) look like the exact same guy?

[get these NETS]

I see sabonis in his prime as a cross between chris webber and dirk nowitski

[Dro]

]Bargs is the deadliest offensive big in the game today and has been since the 08 season[/B].
:biggums:

[sick_brah07]

Bargs is the deadliest offensive big in the game today and has been since the 08 season. His defense is suspect but with some work, I can see him as a first team all defense guy. His shooting is just extraordinary and unseen from a big in any era. The only bad aspect of his game is that he's so damn good that he decides to coast on his peers and that sometimes makes him appear worse than he really is.


Andrew bogut told me first hand he is the hardest player in the nba to defend as far as centres go. Hung out with bogut a few times in melbourne we have spoken about it a few times I was as surprised as most of ish would be but im sure everyone will discredit this and feel they know better than andrew lol

[RoseCity07]

We saw old ass shaq do nothing in his final years. Sabonis contributed a lot in his final years.

[dr.hee]

Bargs is the deadliest offensive big in the game today and has been since the 08 season. His defense is suspect but with some work, I can see him as a first team all defense guy. His shooting is just extraordinary and unseen from a big in any era. The only bad aspect of his game is that he's so damn good that he decides to coast on his peers and that sometimes makes him appear worse than he really is.

http://www.adweek.com/files/imagecache/node-blog/blogs/dirk-nowitzki-geico-hed-2013.jpg

[Myth]

I always viewed him as a bigger Bill Walton with more range.

[CeltsGarlic]

One thing that I always noticed is like some guys already mentioned is very quick outlet pass after a reb.. Just amazing..

[kNIOKAS]

i didnt want to get any posters riled up.

he would have been number 1

27 & 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I6dKuQ4wc8

21 & 20 & some of the most amazing passes ever. look at how everyone runs the floor the second sabonis gets the rebound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqceh-0Qisk
LOL Malone chocking.



Anyway, he did have the most ridiculous skillset. I don't know about mental intangibles but the way he did things was such a pleasure to watch. I'd praise that to no end... Health and mental side was the downside.

[Myth]

i didnt want to get any posters riled up.

he would have been number 1

27 & 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I6dKuQ4wc8

21 & 20 & some of the most amazing passes ever. look at how everyone runs the floor the second sabonis gets the rebound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqceh-0Qisk

One thing that helps is that he seemed to have full control of the ball the moment it touches his fingers AND he seemed to know where everybody on the court was, which meant he could make quick, smart decisions. He essentially had the court vision and awareness of a top level point guard.

[FatComputerNerd]

Totally justified. I'm old enough to remember watching him hold his own (and arguably dominate) D-Rob in the Olympics, and even when he made it to the NBA in his 30s with bad knees he was still getting it done in Portland.

His bball IQ was just off the chart, and even with a broken down body he was still able to be a borderline all-star caliber player.

As a young man before the injuries; forget about it. First team all-nba caliber player.

Imagine Dirk crossed with Shaq, with steve nash-like passing...that was Sabo'.

[brantonli]

Whitsitt asked Portland's team physician, Dr. Robert Cook, to take a look at Sabonis' X-rays before he arrived. Cook asked Whitsitt if he was sure his new player could play. "He said that Arvydas could qualify for a handicapped parking spot based on the X-ray alone," Whitsitt said.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6867508/arvydas-sabonis-long-strange-trip

I was watching the highlight reel of Sabonis and came across this when researching. I can't believe it, this was BEFORE sabonis joined the Blazers, and he already was injured so much he could be defined as handicapped, and proceeded to average a double double in the NBA? That's insane.

[JMT]

Sabonis had a skill set that I've never seen in another guy that sized. Walton was close, and had a quicker step when both still had some "quickness", but Sabonis outside shooting set him apart. And Walton is among my favorite and, at his peak, best players I've ever seen.

As a young man on the Olympic teams, Sabonis was a very mobile player, running the floor. He had incredible court awareness, made some of the quickest decisions you'll see outside of a PG, and just seemed to do everything right on the floor.

It's a shame the NBA and he didn't meet years earlier.

[iamgine]

Totally justified. I'm old enough to remember watching him hold his own (and arguably dominate) D-Rob in the Olympics, and even when he made it to the NBA in his 30s with bad knees he was still getting it done in Portland.

Regarding olympic...well that was pre-NBA DRob. Drob scored 19-12. Sabonis scored 13-13. How is that at all dominant? Moreover, Sabonis had played professionally for years at that point whereas Drob had not. Perhaps it's impressive because he was injured?

[FatComputerNerd]

Regarding olympic...well that was pre-NBA DRob. Drob scored 19-12. Sabonis scored 13-13. How is that at all dominant? Moreover, Sabonis had played professionally for years at that point whereas Drob had not. Perhaps it's impressive because he was injured?

Hence the "arguably".

[dgaras]

Regarding olympic...well that was pre-NBA DRob. Drob scored 19-12. Sabonis scored 13-13. How is that at all dominant? Moreover, Sabonis had played professionally for years at that point whereas Drob had not. Perhaps it's impressive because he was injured?

didn't he come from an achilles injury that took 18 months to heal? back then therapy was in the dark ages if compared with todays amount of data on the internet alone.

[L.Kizzle]

It's a little bit of both.

He made his name dominating a young David Robinson. By young I mean experience not age as Sabonis was only one year older than David at the time, yet he'd been a professional around the time David was still in his early days of High School.

[CavaliersFTW]

totally justified.
the most mobile + coordinated 7'4'' human to walk the earth and he was a great basketball player too.
You must not do research on player heights do you? Sabonis was 7-2.5 w/o shoes on - very big to be certain but not '7'4' and also definitely not the most mobile + coordinated person in his class of size. He's in the same class of size as a Kareem or Wilt or Artis Gilmore but Kareem's mobility was WAY better than Sabonis and Wilt and Gilmore's was at least on par only they were stronger, faster, and could leap better. Young Sabonis could have been a dominant NBA player. But his hype is definitely gotten greater over the years than his actual abilities - due to a Youtube mix that makes it seem like he did everything on the floor all the time - which isn't true. Same is happening with Hakeem and his scoring videos. Watching games of Sabonis reveals a very good all-around center and a superb passer, but not one that adds up to all the hype generated by his Youtube mix.

[Jameerthefear]

myth.

[moe94]

Same is happening with Hakeem and his scoring videos.

What are you even implying here? That Hakeem isn't the most skilled offensive big of all time?

[Teanett]

You must not do research on player heights do you? Sabonis was 7-2.5 w/o shoes on - very big to be certain but not '7'4' and also definitely not the most mobile + coordinated person in his class of size. He's in the same class of size as a Kareem or Wilt or Artis Gilmore but Kareem's mobility was WAY better than Sabonis and Wilt and Gilmore's was at least on par only they were stronger, faster, and could leap better. Young Sabonis could have been a dominant NBA player. But his hype is definitely gotten greater over the years than his actual abilities - due to a Youtube mix that makes it seem like he did everything on the floor all the time - which isn't true. Same is happening with Hakeem and his scoring videos. Watching games of Sabonis reveals a very good all-around center and a superb passer, but not one that adds up to all the hype generated by his Youtube mix.

alright, then he's 7-3, 7-4 with shoes.
so what you fukking nazi?
and i didnt say anything about speed, strength, leaping...
i said coordinated.
you illiterate imbecile piece of shit.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

This thread is about to become Hakeem vs Wilt.

[IncarceratedBob]

In todays game he would be Kevin Love with a weaker offensive arsenal and a bit better defense.

[CavaliersFTW]

alright, then he's 7-3, 7-4 with shoes.
so what you fukking nazi?
and i didnt say anything about speed, strength, leaping...
i said coordinated.
you illiterate imbecile piece of shit.
Yeah, I acknowledged that term you used, and quite clearly pointed out that Kareem was far more coordinated than Sabonis and that Wilt and Gilmore were at least as coordinated in addition to being stronger, faster, and better leapers.

Does that not make sense too you? And facts are facts man, and I just noticed that twice today you've made posts that got them wrong when you talk about players heights. You were calling 3 guys that were 6-10 '7 footers' in another thread and in this one you called a guy who is 7-2.5 '7 foot 4'. It's just nice to get the facts straight you know?

Also, it's not a good idea to jump into calling people names at the drop of a hat when someone tries to correct some facts or add more truth to your posts unless you want to be written off as a troll.

[moe94]

It's just nice to get the facts straight you know?

You literally believe Wilt had a near 40 vert. :coleman:

Or was that someone else?

[Euroleague]

Myth.

They always, always, always say he was the hands down best player in Europe, and he was not.

[Sakkreth]

Myth.

They always, always, always say he was the hands down best player in Europe, and he was not.

Because you are way more credible than most European basketball experts right ?

[Owl]

His advanced metrics for the season aged 31 stand up to those of the best centers of the modern era (D Rob is absent from this list as he was injured that year).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=sabonar01&y1=1996&p2=abdulka01&y2=1979&p3=laniebo01&y3=1980&p4=olajuha01&y4=1994&p5=ewingpa01&y5=1994&p6=gilmoar01&y6=1981

Note that Ewing is having one of his best years (3rd best full season for PER, best for WS/48), Olajuwon is in the midst of his prime playing better than he did aged 27-29 (4th best year by PER, 2nd by WS/48). Jabbar led the league in PER, Win Shares and WS/48. And a crippled version of Sabonis, is per minute, a comparably productive performer.

A healthy Sabas would have been amongst the games' all time greats.

[Euroleague]

Because you are way more credible than most European basketball experts right ?

It's myth. You can't always claim he was the best player in Europe the whole time he was there, when he actually was not and not start to be in myth territory.

You had guys like Petrovic, Epi and Galis playing in Europe that were better than Sabonis as a fact, and yet the MYTH has been endlessly stated that Sabonis was "the best player in Europe the whole time he was there".

In fact, you can also add guys like Dalipagic to the list and some others, considering that there were also better players in Europe overlapping the time of young Sabonis also.

So yes, it is a MYTH.

Whether you like it or not.

IT IS A MYTH.

Sabonis was just the best player in Europe right before he left for the NBA, NOT back in this way earlier time of the early to late 1980s..........

Yet, universally across the USA, NBA, and American basketball circles, he is ALWAYS called "the best player in Europe" in that time frame.

Thus, it IS A MYTH.

Because guys like Drazen Dalipagic, Drazen Petrovic, Epi, Nikos Galis, and I can probably think of some other players from that time also that were better than him in that time - were better than him then.

It is a MYTH that has been spread throughout USA.

It is UNTRUE.

And those "European basketball experts" will be the first ones to AGREE and TELL YOU THE SAME EXACT THING.

Here you are making up MYTH, because those "European basketball experts" don't agree with your MYTHS. They agree that Sabonis was NOT the best player in Europe at that time.

It was guys like Dalipagic, Epi, Galis, Petrovic, and not Sabonis, according to the "European basketball experts". It's only the MYTH spreaders like you that say otherwise.

The MYTHS in USA are that Sabonis was "best player in Europe" from like 1983 to 1995 - it's pure 100% FANTASY.

It's in the same realm of Wilt tall tales.

[fandarko]

[QUOTE=Euroleague]It's myth. You can't always claim he was the best player in Europe the whole time he was there, when he actually was not and not start to be in myth territory.

You had guys like Petrovic, Epi and Galis playing in Europe that were better than Sabonis as a fact, and yet the MYTH has been endlessly stated that Sabonis was "the best player in Europe the whole time he was there".


I have had the privilege to watch Sabonis in his prime years in Europe and it's not a myth. He had the potential to be a Top 5 center ever and a Top 5 player in the league, had he come to the NBA in the mid 80s.

But then again, it's all speculation, since it hever happened.

As a lifelong Drazen Petrovic fan, I can tell you that apart from Drazen (and later Kukoc) no other European player from that era compares to a healthy Sabonis.

Galis was an incredible scorer, but that's it. Epi? Great, but not the same league. Idem for Dalipagic, Kicanovic...

Due to injuries, Sabonis reached 70% of his potential in Europe, playing as a crippled version of himself in the NBA. Had he been healthy, the NBA would have made him much better than he was in his peak, and he was a monster.

He would have been in the league with Shaq, Hakeem, D-Rob and the rest.

But it didn't happen, so we'll never know.

The same is with Kukoc. With a different mindset and a different team, he could have been Kevin Durant plus 8 as per game...

[Euroleague]

It's pure myth.

Sabonis was only best player in Europe in the last year or two before he left for the NBA.

Who the hell cares about all this "what if he was fully healthy" bullshit?

He was not fully healthy or whatever, or we don't even know if he was or not. For all we know he might have been 100% healthy. We don't know.

The point is he was NOT the best player in Europe during that time. It's a MYTH.

PERIOD.

Just saying "but if he was healthy................" over and over a million times does not change it, it's MYTH.

It's just a stupid MYTH.

It's like saying, well what if Yao Ming was healthy and never got hurt over and over a million times. Or what if Bill Walton was healthy and never got hurt a million times.

This is the DEFINITION of MYTH.

Quite honestly, it's gotten incredibly insulting at this point.

Oh, yeah Galis was some scorer, nothing else.

Drazen, oh yeah, he was nothing really compared to Sabonis IF we consider what Sabonis could be fully healthy, same with Kukoc, etc............

"Sabonis, just think only played at 70%, imagine if he played at 100% he would have been so amazing so of course he was the best because IF IF IF IF he was healthy with that size and those skills".............

how dare anyone say he was not the best no matter what the actual history and results were.........................................

THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE EPITOME OF MYTH

[moe94]

If I repeat myself over and over again, my argument grows stronger.

[Teanett]

Yeah, I acknowledged that term you used, and quite clearly pointed out that Kareem was far more coordinated than Sabonis and that Wilt and Gilmore were at least as coordinated in addition to being stronger, faster, and better leapers.

Does that not make sense too you? And facts are facts man, and I just noticed that twice today you've made posts that got them wrong when you talk about players heights. You were calling 3 guys that were 6-10 '7 footers' in another thread and in this one you called a guy who is 7-2.5 '7 foot 4'. It's just nice to get the facts straight you know?

Also, it's not a good idea to jump into calling people names at the drop of a hat when someone tries to correct some facts or add more truth to your posts unless you want to be written off as a troll.

sabas is taller than all of them.
all the guys you named are 2.18 m or shorter.
your rambling doesnt matter.

since when are pau and dirk not 7 footers?

now go have a wank.

[fandarko]

sabas is taller than all of them.
all the guys you named are 2.18 m or shorter.
your rambling doesnt matter.

since when are pau and dirk not 7 footers?

now go have a wank.

Sabas was at least 7-3, probably 7-4, must stronger frame than both of them.
Better passer than both of them. Better rebounder and shotblocker. Equally good post player as Pau. Could shoot the three. IQ of the charts. Imposing physical presence. Ok, he was not the last player that didn't achieve his full potential, but he was still great after two major injuries. The fact that he was a 7-3 guy is what sets im apart, since he had PG like skills, coupled with great rebounding, shotblocking and scoring. Guys like this don't grow on trees.

He was a great player that didn't achieve his full potential. Don't compare him to Gilmore please. You can compare him with Wilt, but he played in another era and was far less versatile than Sabas. But Wilt played 100% and is, of course, ahead of him. Pure skill wise, no way.

[dr.hee]

It's pure myth.

Sabonis was only best player in Europe in the last year or two before he left for the NBA.

Who the hell cares about all this "what if he was fully healthy" bullshit?

He was not fully healthy or whatever, or we don't even know if he was or not. For all we know he might have been 100% healthy. We don't know.

The point is he was NOT the best player in Europe during that time. It's a MYTH.

PERIOD.

Just saying "but if he was healthy................" over and over a million times does not change it, it's MYTH.

It's just a stupid MYTH.

It's like saying, well what if Yao Ming was healthy and never got hurt over and over a million times. Or what if Bill Walton was healthy and never got hurt a million times.

This is the DEFINITION of MYTH.

Quite honestly, it's gotten incredibly insulting at this point.

Oh, yeah Galis was some scorer, nothing else.

Drazen, oh yeah, he was nothing really compared to Sabonis IF we consider what Sabonis could be fully healthy, same with Kukoc, etc............

"Sabonis, just think only played at 70%, imagine if he played at 100% he would have been so amazing so of course he was the best because IF IF IF IF he was healthy with that size and those skills".............

how dare anyone say he was not the best no matter what the actual history and results were.........................................

THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE EPITOME OF MYTH

What a train wreck of a post :lol

[IamRAMBO24]

I have to go with myth.

Definition of a myth:

A traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.

Those who are saying he would be great if he never got injured, is engaging in a form of myth since they are using a hypothetical.

Hypotheticals never deal with facts. With every single hypothetical, I can also say the opposite: that he would of never been as great as Shaq, Kareem, and Wilt.

1. He is not a dominant center. Where are the block shots? The dunks? His hook shot looks weak and do you really want a center to be taking 3s and layups? GTFO. Great centers dominate the paint. Period.

2. Even his versatility is called into question because he's more stiff than my d*ck. He's got no mobility, slow as f*ck, and looks way too soft to control the paint on the defensive end.

[IamRAMBO24]

He was a great player that didn't achieve his full potential.

So what? This is purely a hypothetical. With that flawed argument, I can also say Tracy Mcgrady would of been better than Jordan, Yao Ming would of been the greatest center of all time, Rose would be the best player living today, etc .. the list goes on. Hypotheticals don't mean sh*t because it doesn't deal with facts; it only deals with pulling sh*t out of your a*s to rationalize an irrational sense of reasioning based on emotions.

[dr.hee]

I have to go with myth.

Definition of a myth:

A traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.

Those who are saying he would be great if he never got injured, is engaging in a form of myth since they are using a hypothetical.

Hypotheticals never deal with facts. With every single hypothetical, I can also say the opposite: that he would of never been as great as Shaq, Kareem, and Wilt.

1. He is not a dominant center. Where are the block shots? The dunks? His hook shot looks weak and do you really want a center to be taking 3s? GTFO. Great centers dominate the paint. Period.

2. Even his versatility is called into question because he's more stiff than my d*ck. He's got no mobility, slow as f*ck, and looks way too soft to control the paint on the defensive end.

:roll:

[Kblaze8855]

1. He is not a dominant center. Where are the block shots? The dunks? His hook shot looks weak and do you really want a center to be taking 3s? GTFO. Great centers dominate the paint. Period.

2. Even his versatility is called into question because he's more stiff than my d*ck. He's got no mobility, slow as f*ck, and looks way too soft to control the paint on the defensive end.

You ever watch him in Portland back when they had Rod Strickland or Kenny Anderson?

And the dunks? Really?

Even if it mattered what kind of dunker he was....the young version of him leaves little to be desired. He was literally breaking backboards with one hand poster dunks in Europe. Ive seen it....

[IamRAMBO24]

You ever watch him in Portland back when they had Rod Strickland or Kenny Anderson?

And the dunks? Really?

Even if it mattered what kind of dunker he was....the young version of him leaves little to be desired. He was literally breaking backboards with one hand poster dunks in Europe. Ive seen it....

Hell yea I saw him back in his days. He looks like a stiff cardboard usually late on the rotation and camps in the middle just so he could put his hands up to look intimidating.

Dude's got absolutely nothing on Hakeem, Shaq, and Kareem. You guys are pulling sh*t out of your a*s and trying to make him bigger than he really is by using a lame hypothetical as your reasoning.

[dr.hee]

Hell yea I saw him back in his days.

Sure...

[IamRAMBO24]

You ever watch him in Portland back when they had Rod Strickland or Kenny Anderson?

And the dunks? Really?

Even if it mattered what kind of dunker he was....the young version of him leaves little to be desired. He was literally breaking backboards with one hand poster dunks in Europe. Ive seen it....

:oldlol:

So dunking over weak centers in Europe (probably from highlights) justifies him as the GOAT center?

[iamgine]

What was his impact level in Portland really? Was he as impactful as Mutombo? Mourning perhaps?

[fandarko]

Hell yea I saw him back in his days. He looks like a stiff cardboard usually late on the rotation and camps in the middle just so he could put his hands up to look intimidating.

Dude's got absolutely nothing on Hakeem, Shaq, and Kareem. You guys are pulling sh*t out of your a*s and trying to make him bigger than he really is by using a lame hypothetical as your reasoning.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same player.

I'm from Europe, I've watched Sabonis on regular basis in international games, both for his team and for the USSR national team.

His peak in Europe was in the mid-80s and he was already a beast. But that was half of what he could have done had he went to the NBA and submitted to that type of training, strenght and conditionning. He would have gotten better by 50%, book it.

You've seen him play after his injuries, which were not treatable 25 years ago as they are now. He was much less mobile in the late 80s and early 90s (twice broke his Achille's tendon) and still he was able to play a solid role for a center.

He basically never recovered from these injuries.

And yes, it's all hypothetical, it is "should have, could have", nobody's saying it's a given that he would have been a Top 10 NBA player.

But if you look at Dwight and the fact he is a multiple all star, when you look at guys who were all stars during pre-NBA era (Daugherty, Duckworth, Rick Smiths and even Morning), him healthy would have been much better than them.

But it didn't happen and case closed. This discussion is hypothetical.

[IamRAMBO24]

I see sabonis in his prime as a cross between chris webber and dirk nowitski

I see Sabonis in his prime as a cross between a huge standing erection and a pogo stick.

[IamRAMBO24]

I'm not sure we're talking about the same player.

I'm from Europe, I've watched Sabonis on regular basis in international games, both for his team and for the USSR national team.

His peak in Europe was in the mid-80s and he was already a beast. But that was half of what he could have done had he went to the NBA and submitted to that type of training, strenght and conditionning. He would have gotten better by 50%, book it.

You've seen him play after his injuries, which were not treatable 25 years ago as they are now. He was much less mobile in the late 80s and early 90s (twice broke his Achille's tendon) and still he was able to play a solid role for a center.

He basically never recovered from these injuries.

And yes, it's all hypothetical, it is "should have, could have", nobody's saying it's a given that he would have been a Top 10 NBA player.

But if you look at Dwight and the fact he is a multiple all star, when you look at guys who were all stars during pre-NBA era (Daugherty, Duckworth, Rick Smiths and even Morning), him healthy would have been much better than them.

But it didn't happen and case closed. This discussion is hypothetical.

Thanks for admitting you are pulling sh*t out of your a*s.

[IamRAMBO24]

What was his impact level in Portland really? Was he as impactful as Mutombo? Mourning perhaps?

No.

His only purpose was to square up with Shaq to slow him down (not stop) until the double team arrives.

He was a complete liablity because the team was more of a run and gun type of team. Despite all the liabilities, they kept him due to hissize (mainly fat and very few strength) to have someone who could stop Shaq (who was their biggest obstacle in the playoffs).

[fandarko]

Thanks for admitting you are pulling sh*t out of your a*s.

Well, then half of this forum amounts to pulling shit out of one's ass.

This has been a hypothetical discussion right from the start, nobody's contesting that.

I'm trying to contribute to sheding light on the question (is it just a myth or is it justified) as someone who has watched Sabonis during his pre-NBA career and the NBA at the same time, I doubt anyone here who is not from Europe had that opportunity.

I am able to put this in context of the then NBA (hypothetical) and today's NBA (also hypothetical). The only period that is not hypothetical is the period when Sabonis actually played in the NBA.

Saying that Sabonis had nothing on Hakeem, Kareem and Shaq is right. He wasn't the player they were. But continuing along the hypothetical road, we're debating here if he could have reached their level, had he not been injured.

If Rose retires tommorow due to his knees issues, we will be debating on this forum if he could have been as good as KD, Wade and other superstars had he been healthy. It's a legit discussion. The same with Oden. Had he been healthy, he would have been better than Dwight.

The discussion about Sabonis is interesting because he was so talented and good in his pre-NBA days. US fans have seen a few clips on the Internet and they can be more or less impressed with it, but some of us have seen the guy evolve in the few years he was healthy.

He had the bb iq of Larry Bird at legit 7-4 in shoes, quick, great passer, great rebounder (talking about Sabonis' healthy version), huge presence inside (good shotblocker, at 7-4 you must be), three-point threat, good moves in the paint, a point-center.

His career was cut short by injuries and that's it. The whole fuss about what he could have been is justified, but that remains pure theory.

[IamRAMBO24]

Well, then half of this forum amounts to pulling shit out of one's ass.



True.

This is the reason why nothing relevant ever comes out of these discussions.

[Kblaze8855]

What was his impact level in Portland really? Was he as impactful as Mutombo? Mourning perhaps?

Id take early Portland Sabonis over Mutombo but probably not Zo.

[IamRAMBO24]

Id take early Portland Sabonis over Mutombo but probably not Zo.

:facepalm

[fandarko]

No.

His only purpose was to square up with Shaq to slow him down (not stop) until the double team arrives.

He was a complete liablity because the team was more of a run and gun type of team. Despite all the liabilities, they kept him due to hissize (mainly fat and very few strength) to have someone who could stop Shaq (who was their biggest obstacle in the playoffs).

In his best season 97/98, Sabonis averaged 16/10/3/1 in 32 minutes per game.


In his best offensive season 91/92, Mutombo averaged 16/12/2/3 in 38 minutes per game.

Mutombo's PPG later declined, while his RPB i BPG increased. During his prime 8 seasons, he never played less than 36 minutes per game in average.

I would call it pretty comparable, although they were completely different players. The major difference being Mutombo was healthy, while Sabonis played basically without jumping, since he had no tendons.

As an indication of what Sabonis could have been had he been utilized differently, take a look at his playoff stats in his first five seasons:

22/12/3/1/1
19/11/2/1/1,7
18/11//3/1/1
16/10/3/1/1,7
16/11/2/1/1,7

The guy was basically a criple, not running and not jumping. He was playing cripled. And yet he produced in a stacked conference in the playoffs, in a team that didn't exactly run plays for him.

And you're calling him a liability?

[IamRAMBO24]

In his best season 97/98, Sabonis averaged 16/10/3/1 in 32 minutes per game.


In his best offensive season 91/92, Mutombo averaged 16/12/2/3 in 38 minutes per game.

Mutombo's PPG later declined, while his RPB i BPG increased. During his prime 8 seasons, he never played less than 36 minutes per game in average.

I would call it pretty comparable, although they were completely different players. The major difference being Mutombo was healthy, while Sabonis played basically without jumping, since he had no tendons.

As an indication of what Sabonis could have been had he been utilized differently, take a look at his playoff stats in his first five seasons:

22/12/3/1/1
19/11/2/1/1,7
18/11//3/1/1
16/10/3/1/1,7
16/11/2/1/1,7

The guy was basically a criple, not running and not jumping. He was playing cripled. And yet he produced in a stacked conference in the playoffs, in a team that didn't exactly run plays for him.

And you're calling him a liability?

Sabonis never had the defensive dominance of Mutombo. For a Portland team stacked with offensive all stars, Mutombo would be a better fit than Sab. Plus the team was always looking for fast breaks, so a limped Sab really killed their offensive game when he was on the floor.

[fandarko]

Sabonis never had the defensive dominance of Mutombo. For a Portland team stacked with offensive all stars, Mutombo would be a better fit than Sab. Plus the team was always looking for fast breaks, so a limped Sab really killed their offensive game when he was on the floor.

Do you realize what you're saying?

Even healthy, as a center he wouldn't have ran the break, wings do that.

Mutombo never ran the break.

[IamRAMBO24]

Do you realize what you're saying?

Even healthy, as a center he wouldn't have ran the break, wings do that.

Mutombo never ran the break.

I agree with you, but for a team that relies on the run and gun offense, having a center limp up the court is detrimental to the offense and defense. Prime Mutombo had faster legs and could get into position for an easy dunk and back on defense much better than Sab.

[fandarko]

I agree with you, but for a team that relies on the run and gun offense, having a center limp up the court is detrimental to the offense. Prime Mutombo had faster legs and could get into position for an easy dunk much better than Sab.

Of course, but Mutombo was a defensive specialist with a grand total of two moves in offense.

Sabonis was a point center and relied upon for different things in Portland.

Their stats were comparable, with Mutombo having the edge on defense and Sabas in scoring and passing, while basically limping. As the stats show, he was still able to be a presence in the playoffs.

Theoretically speaking, if he was able to put 22/11/3/1 in the playoffs on one leg and at 32, it may be rightfully assumed he would have been able to post better numbers at 25, while he still had his tendons.

I repeat, that is pure speculation, but it's realistic speculation.

And we're talking here about a rare breed - 7 foot NBA centers - so it's a pertinent discussion. Guards and wings are many, and good guards and wings are legion.

All star caliber 7-footers are a dime dozen and that makes this discussion topical to say the least.

[Kblaze8855]

Plus the team was always looking for fast breaks, so a limped Sab really killed their offensive game when he was on the floor.


Any speck of belief I had that you watched a second of him in Portland died right there. Sabonis was one of the greatest outlet passers of his or any other time. They ran a hell of a lot of breaks just because he was there to get it out instantly. There are videos in this topic with him throwing 75 foot outlet passes for the score.

You are either lying about seeing them or just out for a reaction.

[brain drain]

We'll never know. He certainly would've been a pretty damn good center, that much is for sure considering his NBA years. But beyond that, there's only speculation.

David Robinson is a good example for the difficulty of this kind of projection: if you created a 10 minutes best of tape and that was all you'd know about him, you'd probably project im as "at least top 5" or something. And purely from a pure potential standtpoint, this projection might actually be true or at least close to the truth. But as far as a the actual career is concerned, we all know that he's nowhere close to top 5.

Also, I always think that great non-pg passers often get a tad overrated compared to their actual impact.

[Djsonny]

Any speck of belief I had that you watched a second of him in Portland died right there. Sabonis was one of the greatest outlet passers of his or any other time. They ran a hell of a lot of breaks just because he was there to get it out instantly. There are videos in this topic with him throwing 75 foot outlet passes for the score.

You are either lying about seeing them or just out for a reaction.

I agree with you on this. I listened to a lot of his arguments, justified until this. All players knew that once sabonis got the board, they would take off and sabonis will hit you with the outlet passes. Even without the outlet passes, by the time he reached the other end, their center would have to respect his 3s, and guard up top

[IamRAMBO24]

I agree with you on this. I listened to a lot of his arguments, justified until this. All players knew that once sabonis got the board, they would take off and sabonis will hit you with the outlet passes. Even without the outlet passes, by the time he reached the other end, their center would have to respect his 3s, and guard up top

The argument was whether or not Mutombo would of been a better fit for the Trailblazers at the time. Sab's presence on the court slowed the game down because they would play half court ball, so they were really a different team with him on the court despite his great passing ability.

[IamRAMBO24]

Even without the outlet passes, by the time he reached the other end, their center would have to respect his 3s, and guard up top

I don't see how this is a strength. Centers shouldn't be taking 3s because they are too far from the paint to block a shot or grab an offensive rebound. He's not shooting 3s like Reggie Miller, so the negative far outweighs the positive.

[dr.hee]

Centers shouldn't be taking 3s because they are too far from the paint to block a shot

You shoot 3s on offense. You block shots on defense. So there might be a slight issue with your post...:lol

[IamRAMBO24]

You shoot 3s on offense. You block shots on defense. So there might be a slight issue with your post...:lol

I meant he's not a true dominant center. He doesn't have the strength of Shaq to dunk the ball, the hook shot of Kareem nor the versatility of Hakeem under the rim. They all play close to the rim so they can grab the offensive rebound. How anyone can say he's GOAT center based on his 3 pointers and passing ability is beyond me. That's not what defines a true center.

[moe94]

How anyone can say he's GOAT center based on his 3 pointers and passing ability is beyond me. That's not what defines a true center.


Yeah, he just did 15/10 as a 33 year old man with more surgeries and injuries than Penny. He would've been a scrub in his prime. :rolleyes:

[Psileas]

Sabas was at least 7-3, probably 7-4, must stronger frame than both of them.
Better passer than both of them. Better rebounder and shotblocker. Equally good post player as Pau. Could shoot the three. IQ of the charts. Imposing physical presence. Ok, he was not the last player that didn't achieve his full potential, but he was still great after two major injuries. The fact that he was a 7-3 guy is what sets im apart, since he had PG like skills, coupled with great rebounding, shotblocking and scoring. Guys like this don't grow on trees.

He was a great player that didn't achieve his full potential. Don't compare him to Gilmore please. You can compare him with Wilt, but he played in another era and was far less versatile than Sabas. But Wilt played 100% and is, of course, ahead of him. Pure skill wise, no way.

Not even less versatile, let alone far less. Please, try to stick to players you know better about. Playing in another era doesn't quite cut it if the league you've dominated is called the NBA and the league Sabonis had dominated is called the Soviet/Spanish league or Champions' Cup, etc. Plus, neither Wilt played at 100% of his potential, since he entered the NBA at 23+, he used lots of finesse to prove that he was a versatile player instead of a tall freak, not to mention his own devastating injury in 1969 that reduced him to less than what he could be instead. Closer to 100% than Sabonis all things considered, but still not quite there.

[dr.hee]

I meant he's not a true dominant center. He doesn't have the strength of Shaq to dunk the ball, the hook shot of Kareem nor the versatility of Hakeem under the rim. They all play close to the rim so they can grab the offensive rebound. How anyone can say he's GOAT center based on his 3 pointers and passing ability is beyond me. That's not what defines a true center.

You can't even separate offense from defense, so what about reading up about basic rules first? Here's a start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball We all started watching basketball as a child, and you probably haven't seen much yet. I can recommend the NBA -> http://nba.com

[IamRAMBO24]

Yeah, he just did 15/10 as a 33 year old man with more surgeries and injuries than Penny. He would've been a scrub in his prime. :rolleyes:

I didn't say he was a scrub. Stick to the argument. The argument is would he have been better than Shaq, Kareem, or Wilt?

The answer is no (hence myth) because he doesn't have the dominating skillset a center needs to be great as the above.

He can block, sure, but not as good as those guys; he can score, sure, but not quite as dominating as them; he can shoot a 3, but that's not what's important for a center; he's a great passer, sure, but I'll take better rebounder and blocker over that anyday, hence why I would take Mutombo over him.

If you want to talk about a great all around big man (passing, scoring, the whole jig), then look at Karl Malone. Even he couldn't dominate the sport like those guys could let alone a limp erection barely moving up and down the court.

[IamRAMBO24]

You can't even separate offense from defense, so what about reading up about basic rules first? Here's a start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball We all started watching basketball as a child, and you probably haven't seen much yet. I can recommend the NBA -> http://nba.com

I already corrected myself.

[moe94]

. Even he couldn't dominate the sport like those guys could.

You mean outside being the most consistently dominant offensive PF of all time?

[IamRAMBO24]

You mean outside being the most consistently dominant offensive PF of all time?

Malone can get away more than Sab since he is a true power forward, but Sab's game is just unacceptable for someone who's over 7 ft. I mean he's doing layups and shooting 3s. GTFO. He should be dunking that sh*t everytime he gets the ball. He doesn't even have to jump (not that he could). He's a pointguard stuck in a center's body, hence why he doesn't have the killer instinct of a big man.

[moe94]

He's a pointguard stuck in a center's body, hence why he doesn't have the killer instinct of a big man.

First off, "killer instinct" is the most retarded and nonexistent idea in all of sports. Stop using that term because you're killing any cred you may possess.

How is dunking correlated with dominance? 2 points are 2 points, regardless of whether Shaq thundered it in or Timmy banked it off the glass. It's 2 damn points.

Your arguments are little more than superficial "he doesn't dunk hard" statements or just flat out hysterical with "no killer instinct because he's not a true C".

[dr.hee]

Sab's game is just unacceptable for someone who's over 7 ft. I mean he's doing layups and shooting 3s. GTFO. He should be dunking that sh*t everytime he gets the ball.

http://bokunosekai.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/dirk-finals-mvp.jpg

Unacceptable! You can't win like this! No dunks? GTFO!

And look at this scrub, he should throw that sh*t down everytime. But instead...

http://www.ccsabathia52.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/abdul-jabbar.jpeg

What is he doing? Soft ass hook shot...that's unacceptable. Throw that sh!t down! The NBA should look like a game of 2k14, which is probably where you know basketball from.

[IamRAMBO24]

Killer instinct = Alpha.

Quite frankly Sab doesn't have it in him if he's doing weak a*s layups at the rim. At least Duncan and Kareem throws it down once a while, but rarely do I see Sab power one down hard (and I'm not talking about highlights either). His game just doesn't have the dominant presence of other big men.

[dr.hee]

Killer instinct = Alpha.

Quite frankly Sab doesn't have it in him if he's doing weak a*s layups at the rim. At least Duncan and Kareem throws it down once a while, but rarely do I see Sab power one down hard (and I'm not talking about highlights either). His game just doesn't have the dominant presence of other big men.

Why? Because it would simply destroy your point? Weak...

[Smoke117]

It's possible it's a myth in some ways, but he would have been an year to year all star if he had come in his prime. By the time he came into the NBA at 31 his knees and mobility were shot and yet he still put up good numbers.

[Euroleague]

You ever watch him in Portland back when they had Rod Strickland or Kenny Anderson?

And the dunks? Really?

Even if it mattered what kind of dunker he was....the young version of him leaves little to be desired. He was literally breaking backboards with one hand poster dunks in Europe. Ive seen it....

He's overrated.

He was the best center of his time in Europe.

But I can make the argument that centers like Cosic and Meneghin were right there with him, especially Cosic.

Did you ever see Cosic play? I am going to assume not?

Cosic was freaking amazing, and he was more skilled than Sabonis.

Sabonis was not even most skilled center that has played in Europe.

Thus, this is MYTH. Because all these claims are just making stuff up that simply is not true. Therefore it is MYTH.

Do yourself a favor and learn about Kresimir Cosic because you try to act like such a know it all about European basketball and all you actually do is look like a complete fool.

[russwest0]

Hey look, it's Ming_7_6 again :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Euroleague]

I'm not sure we're talking about the same player.

I'm from Europe, I've watched Sabonis on regular basis in international games, both for his team and for the USSR national team.

His peak in Europe was in the mid-80s and he was already a beast. But that was half of what he could have done had he went to the NBA and submitted to that type of training, strenght and conditionning. He would have gotten better by 50%, book it.

You've seen him play after his injuries, which were not treatable 25 years ago as they are now. He was much less mobile in the late 80s and early 90s (twice broke his Achille's tendon) and still he was able to play a solid role for a center.

He basically never recovered from these injuries.

And yes, it's all hypothetical, it is "should have, could have", nobody's saying it's a given that he would have been a Top 10 NBA player.

But if you look at Dwight and the fact he is a multiple all star, when you look at guys who were all stars during pre-NBA era (Daugherty, Duckworth, Rick Smiths and even Morning), him healthy would have been much better than them.

But it didn't happen and case closed. This discussion is hypothetical.


Yes, it is hypothetical on what he COULD have been. And he was best center in Europe in his time.

The problem is you come with these MYTHS like "he was best player in Europe then", "he was best ever then", etc. which is not true. It's just hypothetical, then when you get called on it, you say well, yeah if not for the injuries it would have been so...........

That's what a MYTH is.

The OP is asking is this reality or myth. The claims in USA, the legends about Sabonis that have been built up around him are thus in fact myths.

That's the reality. He's turned into something like the Lithuanian Wilt Chamberlain.

[Norcaliblunt]

What exactly is the myth? That he would've a been a great player in the nba, and a top center?

[fandarko]

He's overrated.

He was the best center of his time in Europe.

But I can make the argument that centers like Cosic and Meneghin were right there with him, especially Cosic.

Did you ever see Cosic play? I am going to assume not?

Cosic was freaking amazing, and he was more skilled than Sabonis.

Sabonis was not even most skilled center that has played in Europe.

Thus, this is MYTH. Because all these claims are just making stuff up that simply is not true. Therefore it is MYTH.

Do yourself a favor and learn about Kresimir Cosic because you try to act like such a know it all about European basketball and all you actually do is look like a complete fool.

I've managed to catch the late career of Cosic and it's true, he was incredible.

Skills wise, he was one of the best players of Europe all time.

But that's another era, the era of Kicanovic, Dalipagic, Simonovic, Belov in Russia.

Realistically, Sabonis would have scored 100 in that era, that's not comparable.

The fact is that Sabonis had a very short peak before he was injured. Say between the European Championship in France in 1983 and the European Championship in Germany in 1985. He was drafted by the Hawks that year (voided, too young) and suffered the Achille's tendon rupture in 1986, drafted by Blazers that summer.

Here's what Wikipedia says, sums it all up well:

"The 1985

[Myth]

Thread was fun until Euroleague bombed it with his constant crying.

[SpanishACB]

Many people don't know that his skillset comes from playing a free role in his younger years, he was 7,1-7,3 ft and he basically ran the floor and played like a forward.

His injures started kicking in and he bulked up, forcing him to play more of a post game.

Hence becoming the most complete player of all time (personal opinion).

And Euroleague please leave the thread, you started watching basketball when Span started playing your opinion is like a bucket full of shit except there's no bucket.

[IamRAMBO24]

Why? Because it would simply destroy your point? Weak...

No because highlights NEVER truly represent a player's real skill set. It only shows their greatest moments and NEVER shows the rest of their game, so posting a few dunks from Sabonis won't "own" my argument in any way. You have to watch him in action to understand how weak sauce he really is when compared to dominant centers like Shaq, Kareem, and Wilt. I've seen more aggression from Dwight Howard and that's saying a lot.

[IamRAMBO24]

And don't get me wrong, I think Sab is a very talented ball player, but I'm only sticking to the premise: that he could of been compared to the top centers (meaning better than Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem) had he stayed healthy.

[Nick Young]

He's overrated.

He was the best center of his time in Europe.

But I can make the argument that centers like Cosic and Meneghin were right there with him, especially Cosic.

Did you ever see Cosic play? I am going to assume not?

Cosic was freaking amazing, and he was more skilled than Sabonis.

Sabonis was not even most skilled center that has played in Europe.

Thus, this is MYTH. Because all these claims are just making stuff up that simply is not true. Therefore it is MYTH.

Do yourself a favor and learn about Kresimir Cosic because you try to act like such a know it all about European basketball and all you actually do is look like a complete fool.
Was Cosic 7'3 and weighed 292 pounds?

[Teanett]

realistacally, he would have been like boris diaw.

but 7'3", stronger, faster, more agile and better in the post.

[fandarko]

realistacally, he would have been like boris diaw.

but 7'3", stronger, faster, more agile and better in the post.

That's a very good comparison, but prime Diaw in Phoenix.

Sabonis was 7'3'' barefoot, bear that in mind.

[Element]

Yes. He could shoot fadeaway 4 point dunks just like Wilt used to. I remember there was a story when the two of them got together to stage Adolf Hitler's death in the 1940's. They also invented DNA and Weed.

[Sakkreth]

He's overrated.

He was the best center of his time in Europe.

But I can make the argument that centers like Cosic and Meneghin were right there with him, especially Cosic.

Did you ever see Cosic play? I am going to assume not?

Cosic was freaking amazing, and he was more skilled than Sabonis.

Sabonis was not even most skilled center that has played in Europe.

Thus, this is MYTH. Because all these claims are just making stuff up that simply is not true. Therefore it is MYTH.

Do yourself a favor and learn about Kresimir Cosic because you try to act like such a know it all about European basketball and all you actually do is look like a complete fool.


You claim to be basque, yet you overrate, overhype and root for greek players and you somehow live in Arkansas, who the fck from Europe goes to US to live in Arkansas... None of this makes any kind of sense, so stop lying for once. Looking at how you communicate and respond to people and what knowledge you have on basketball despite having tons of accounts on multiple basketball boards and how much you post, there can be only one conclussion, either you have some serious mental problems or you are trolling very hard and at such a level than sane person wouldn't do, so yes conclussion is that you are mentally ill and there is no way around it. So make everyone a favor(including yourself) and stop posting on basketball boards and go check ur mental health instead, talk to psychiatrist about this or something, seek some help, you really need it.

[D.J.]

Sabonis' ball IQ and fundamentals were some of the best of any player ever, big man or not. Him and Ralph Sampson were the most athletic, coordinated players at that size I've ever seen. Sabonis dominated the boards like a big man his size should, but he could also shoot, handle the ball, and start a break with his passing. He was easily the best passing big man ever. Guys like Daugherty, Duncan, and Webber were all great passing bigs, and Sabonis has them beat by a country mile.

If Sabonis came to the states back in '86 like he should have, I think he would have been right up there with Wilt and Kareem. He was that dominant and skilled. We saw Shaq get the upper hand on a mid 30s Sabonis, but give us 25-27 year old Sabonis with a healthy back and mostly fresh legs, I see Sabonis having the upper hand. He had tremendous game outside of the paint and I see Shaq struggling greatly in that scenario.

[kNIOKAS]

realistacally, he would have been like boris diaw.

but 7'3", stronger, faster, more agile and better in the post.
Yeah Kobe Bryant could have been like a stronger, faster, more agile and better in the post Marshon Brooks.

[Kblaze8855]

Do yourself a favor and learn about Kresimir Cosic because you try to act like such a know it all about European basketball and all you actually do is look like a complete fool.


First of all..what does any of what you said have to do with Sabonis being a great outlet passer and me saying he broke a backboard in response to someone asking where the dunks were(as if it mattered)?

Second....

Has anything I said in this topic been on the subject of Sabonis vs anyone in europe?

Third....

I think ive made 2 topics on european basketball in 12 years.

Both were asking queopean basketball fans to explain something I did not know. Most recently this one:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=298157&page=3


Do you even read the things you respond to?

[dgaras]

nobody could have defended shaq. ever. the only 2 players i've seen that had a big impact on shaq defensively and were actually able to stand there were vlade divac and yao ming.

disagree with me if you want. those 2 could defend shaq a lot better than anybody else ever could

[magnax1]

I've found some torrents of some old euroleague and olympic Sabonis games, and I do think he was an elite center. I mean, that actually isn't much of a question. He just was. Offensively he might actually have been the best out of Robinson Hakeem and him. He didn't look too great defensively though.

[Sakkreth]

First of all..what does any of what you said have to do with Sabonis being a great outlet passer and me saying he broke a backboard in response to someone asking where the dunks were(as if it mattered)?

Second....

Has anything I said in this topic been on the subject of Sabonis vs anyone in europe?

Third....

I think ive made 2 topics on european basketball in 12 years.

Both were asking queopean basketball fans to explain something I did not know. Most recently this one:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=298157&page=3


Do you even read the things you respond to?

Lol did someone say he didn't dunk or something ? Cause he was dunking pretty much everything in the paint before injuries, of course competition wasn't the best, but still it was either a foul or dunk pretty much all the time if he got the ball inside. Some people needs to realise that he was very athletic, many of people just don't think so cause they saw mostly broken down Sabas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfSvrQfUeAg

It's bit sad though that there is very little footage of his play from those times.

[Euroleague]

I've managed to catch the late career of Cosic and it's true, he was incredible.

Skills wise, he was one of the best players of Europe all time.

But that's another era, the era of Kicanovic, Dalipagic, Simonovic, Belov in Russia.

Realistically, Sabonis would have scored 100 in that era, that's not comparable.

The fact is that Sabonis had a very short peak before he was injured. Say between the European Championship in France in 1983 and the European Championship in Germany in 1985. He was drafted by the Hawks that year (voided, too young) and suffered the Achille's tendon rupture in 1986, drafted by Blazers that summer.

Here's what Wikipedia says, sums it all up well:

"The 1985–1988 stretch of a heavy playing schedule and lack of rest took a significant toll on Sabonis' future health and durability. Various leg injuries weren't given much time to heal due to the Cold War climate that surrounded international competition as well as BC Žalgiris – CSKA Moscow games. In a 2011 interview, Sabonis expressed an opinion that overuse by the coaches of the Soviet national program was a major contributing factor to his first Achilles' tendon injury back in 1986.[5] Another key moment for his future health took place in 1988 when Sabonis had a surgical Achilles procedure performed in Portland but was rushed back on the floor with the USSR Olympic team before a full recovery. The decision to include a limping Sabonis on the USSR roster for the 1988 Olympic games was protested at the time by Portland medical staff and was later heavily criticized.[6] Eventually Sabonis would develop chronic knee, ankle and groin issues that substantially limited his mobility and explosiveness by the mid-1990s."

And here's what Clyde Drexler said:

"In Clyde Drexler's view, if Sabonis had been able to spend his prime in Portland next to the plethora of other Trail Blazers' All Stars (Drexler, Terry Porter, Buck Williams and "Cliff" Robinson), Trail Blazers would "have had four, five or six titles. Guaranteed. He was that good. He could pass, shoot three pointers, had a great post game, and dominated the paint."

So yes, it's all could have, should have. But it's not for nothing, the man was incredible. I was a Drazen Petrovic fan and I hated him back in the day. My parents travelled to Budapest to see the Euroleague finals in 1986 between Drazen Petrovic's team and that of Sabonis (Drazen won).

No one is saying this isn't true. You are missing the point. The point is that it's MYTH. Because it all ASSUMES that it would have happened despite the injuries.

It did not actually happen.

But the legends all say it did happen or would have happened.

Thus, the DEFINITION of a myth.


And it's also sad, that no one in USA seems to know anything about Cosic, most amazingly skilled European center of all time, and they are always calling Sabonis "best skilled European center ever"...................

The problem here is simply separating myth from facts, what could have been or might have been, which is legend, etc., from myths (he WAS this or WAS that, etc.)

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

Sabonis = great center = fact.

Sabonis "would have been best ever if not for the injuries" = myth - because there is nothing to base that on, it's pure 100% speculation and nothing more than that.

Let's have 100 threads about Yao Ming saying the same thing............where are they?

The OP is simply asking are the legends, under the myth category? Go look up the definition of the word myth in a dictionary.

YES. THEY ARE. By definition, they are myth.

Sabonis is the Lithuanian Wilt Chamberlain. I don't know if it is Portland fans that started this or Lithuanians that started this.

[Euroleague]

nobody could have defended shaq. ever. the only 2 players i've seen that had a big impact on shaq defensively and were actually able to stand there were vlade divac and yao ming.

disagree with me if you want. those 2 could defend shaq a lot better than anybody else ever could

Only guy that could defend Shaq was Yao. The refs never let anyone play Shaq. The refs always helped Shaq.

Anyway, since some people keep mentioning Shaq here. Shaq is being thrown in a lot with Hakeem here in this discussion and it's pretty damn insulting.

Shaq was never anywhere close to as good as Hakeem was.

The comments in this thread pretty much all around confirm the general complete lack of any basic basketball knowledge here.