Put an 18 to 26 yrs.old Cleveland Lebron with Prime Shaq's lakers from 1996 to 2004

[Lebron23]

How many championships???

http://a.espncdn.com/i/media/nba/2003/1030/photo/a_lebronjames_vt.jpg

[moe94]

None because they'd still need a closer.

[TheReal Kendall]

Maybe 1

[Suguru101]

1996 - No ship.
1997 - No ship.
1998 - No ship.
1999 - Ship.
2000 - Ship.
2001 - Ship.
2002 - No ship.
2003 - Ship.
2004 - Ship.

[Lebron23]

None because they'd still need a closer.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o219/arkanthill/nba/lebron_james_buzzer_beater1.jpg


LBJ. He already have more game winning shots than Kobe. and He's not even 29 yrs.old.

Lakers also had Fisher and Horry who's more clutch than Kobe. They were the Ray Allen's of Shaq's Lakers.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

On paper they would be the best team from LeBron's 3rd year (98-99 in this case) onwards.

[9erempiree]

None.

That Laker team was honestly a 2 man team.

Lebron at that time wasn't very clutch.

[fpliii]

1997 - 03-04 LeBron
1998 - 04-05 LeBron
1999 - 05-06 LeBron
2000 - 06-07 LeBron
2001 - 07-08 LeBron
2002 - 08-09 LeBron
2003 - 09-10 LeBron
2004 - 10-11 LeBron

Same three rings IMO. They'd have a shot in 03, 04, but LeBron had playoff issues in the corresponding years. Maybe with a threepeat under his belt it doesn't happen? Who knows, I guess.

EDIT: 2000 is slightly iffy, depending on how that Portland series goes.

[Fudge]

Same amount as the Kobe/Shaq tandem, maybe even less. 1 for sure, 3 max.

[moe94]

Does it bother Kobe fans that Shaq would have won at least two rings with Pierce, Carter, T-Mac, Ray Allen and Allen Iverson from that same time period?

[Lebron23]

Lebron is a better team player than Kobe. The reason why Kobe and Shaq only won 3 championships because they were feuding since the start of the 2003 NBA Season.

and Kobe wanted to win an NBA Finals MVP. shaq would be the alpha male from 1996 to 2002, and from 2003 to 2004 Lebron would be the best player of the team.

[fpliii]

Lebron is a better team player than Kobe. The reason why Kobe and Shaq only won 3 championships because they were feuding since the start of the 2003 NBA Season.

and Kobe wanted to win an NBA Finals MVP.

Feuding started in the 00-01 season.

[0000000]

This is the dumbest type of topic. And i don't mean that as an insult, LeBron23, you're actually one of my favorite posters here.

Put Nick Van Exel, Eddie Jones and young Kobe with Shaq...how many championships?
Put Kobe, Shaq, Payton and Malone together...how many championships?
Assemble the 2013 Nets...
2012 Lakers
Iverson and Melo
TMac and Yao
JKidd and Vince...

Bottom line, you never know. Threads like this are pointless.

[AintNoSunshine]

won't say they would be able to beat Jordan, but let's be real, Shaq+Lebron? That's championship every year after Jordan era. They also would have won in 2004 with Malone and Payton without that chemistry problem. Maybe even 1 or 2 more rings after that.

[ballinhun8]

They'd beat Jersey.


I see them losing to Indy and Philly. James did say AI was the pound for pound toughest player and LeBron, let's face it, has had his playoff demons that didn't go away til 2012.

[OldSkoolball#52]

Not 5, not 6, not 7...

[tpols]

Lebron has never played on a team where the ball is fed into the post and offense is run through a big man. He couldnt even shoot well until later in his career. With Shaq demanding double triples in the paint think how packed it would be in there. There would have to be an in between game and Lebron didnt have that back then.

Kobe operated in the midrange extended. Feeding the post, working the triangle, taking a few dribbles and pulling up from midrange while the defenses sank on Shaq.

How are we supposed to act like Lebron would be able to do all those same things, nevermind do them at an elite level, when they are nothing like how he played the game? Is bron going off against the spurs and the kings when teams like that gave him tons of trouble? Its like rock paper scissors.. Kobe could take care of those matchups far better.. and those were some of Lakers biggest tests.

[Doranku]

None.

[livinglegend]

This is the dumbest type of topic. And i don't mean that as an insult, LeBron23, you're actually one of my favorite posters here.

Put Nick Van Exel, Eddie Jones and young Kobe with Shaq...how many championships?
Put Kobe, Shaq, Payton and Malone together...how many championships?
Assemble the 2013 Nets...
2012 Lakers
Iverson and Melo
TMac and Yao
JKidd and Vince...

Bottom line, you never know. Threads like this are pointless.

This

[D.J.]

How would they come through in crunch time? LeBron wasn't exactly known as being clutch all the way up to 2011, and Shaq had to sit out in crunch time because if they needed points, they couldn't afford him to be missing shots at the line.

[Lebron23]

They'd beat Jersey.


I see them losing to Indy and Philly. James did say AI was the pound for pound toughest player and LeBron, let's face it, has had his playoff demons that didn't go away til 2012.


Let me refresh your memory. Lebron shut down a taller, and efficient version of Allen Iverson in the 2011 Eastern conference Finals. His name is Derrick Rose. A Prime Derick rose.

[Lebron23]

How would they come through in crunch time? LeBron wasn't exactly known as being clutch all the way up to 2011, and Shaq had to sit out in crunch time because if they needed points, they couldn't afford him to be missing shots at the line.



Lebron led the NBA in 4th quarter scoring from 2007 to 2010. 2011 was the only year he struggled in the 4th quarter.

[Lebron23]

Not 5, not 6, not 7...


http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130306110061/video-game-championship-wrestling/images/9/94/Daniel_Bryan_YES.gif

[VIntageNOvel]

Put 96-2003 Shaq in place of bron 2003-2010 cavs, how many rings they win?

[9erempiree]

Lebron is a better team player than Kobe. The reason why Kobe and Shaq only won 3 championships because they were feuding since the start of the 2003 NBA Season.

and Kobe wanted to win an NBA Finals MVP. shaq would be the alpha male from 1996 to 2002, and from 2003 to 2004 Lebron would be the best player of the team.

The fact that they were feuding is what made their championship run so impressive. Even though I believe the feud wasn't as big as the media portrayed it to be.

Imagine if they were really good friends. We will be sitting here talking about how Kobe and Shaq are the best players ever.

[Lebron23]

Put 96-2003 Shaq in place of bron 2003-2010 cavs, how many rings they win?
Zero

No NBA Superstar would ever win an NBA title if Mo Williams is your 2nd scoring option.

Mo disappeared ala Harry Houdini in the playoffs.

[9erempiree]

Let me refresh your memory. Lebron shut down a taller, and efficient version of Allen Iverson in the 2011 Eastern conference Finals. His name is Derrick Rose. A Prime Derick rose.

Iverson was a nightmare for defenses. Can't say that about Rose.

[tpols]

Let me refresh your memory. Lebron shut down a taller, and efficient version of Allen Iverson in the 2011 Eastern conference Finals. His name is Derrick Rose. A Prime Derick rose.
Dude.. Lakers problem ain't with the sixers. That was a joke series with shaq rag dolling Mt mutumbo back to Africa. Their problems were kings Spurs trailblazers... Stacked teams with incredible defenses. That shit wasn't easy. And they were better teams than any out today besides Miami.

[D.J.]

Lebron led the NBA in 4th quarter scoring from 2007 to 2010. 2011 was the only year he struggled in the 4th quarter.


Crunch time isn't 12 minutes long.

[inclinerator]

they wouldnt need a closer, lebron would actually get his teammates involved and they would be blowing out teams

[Lebron23]

they wouldnt need a closer, lebron would actually get his teammates involved and they would be blowing out teams


And they have Big shot Rob and Big Shot Fisher

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IGlQ62SjGNU/TicnZB8eycI/AAAAAAAAAWs/T2Up0duD5BU/s320/Fish%2Bn%2Bhorry%2B1.jpg

[Magic 32]

We only have a sample of 6 games in which Lebron was asked to be a productive second option.

Didn't go so well.

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lebron-flop-3.gif

[Lebron23]

http://basketfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Screen-Shot-2013-06-21-at-12.38.48-AM.png

Back to Back Finals MVP Mrs. Magic 32. He got no worries playing along side the most domnant center in NBA Finals History.

[Deuce Bigalow]

We only have a sample of 6 games in which Lebron was asked to be a productive second option.

Didn't go so well.

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lebron-flop-3.gif
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xjJXGIeY6G0/UIR9f1ujDpI/AAAAAAAAApU/BF5eLAuDJ8U/s1600/The+Rock+Clapping.gif

You could say Wade had flashes of prime Shaq in that series

Gm 2: 36-6-5 on 13/20
Gm 3: 29-11-3 on 12/21
Gm 4: 32-6-2 on 13/20

[Rose'sACL]

He get this Against weak era ( Today Leauge )
No Quailty Center is Half as good as Prime Alonzo Mouning
http://i.imgur.com/Pl3bElt.jpg

birdman birdman

[IllegalD]

:roll: @ LeBron Stans. So insecure they feel threatened by a 35 year old player with the milage of a 40 year old coming off an achilles rupture while their god is in his prime.

:lol

[Rose'sACL]

YOU MEAN RAY ALLEN SAFE LEBRON LAST YEAR :oldlol:
http://i.imgur.com/Pl3bElt.jpg

hey Greg..............birdman birdman

[Boomerang]

With Shaq, Lebron would have no FMVP too.
So all the things you said about Kobe, 18 years, only 2 FMVP etc etc.. would be applicable to Lebron, EVEN IF he won the rings.

Is that what you want, Lebron23?

[Sharmer]

Probably win more rings cause Lebron is a better team player.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Had LeBron been drafted to shaq's Lakers he probably would've played more of a pg role than usual, he still would've scored but being the team player LeBron is he would look to feed the big guy.
I'd say 4, maybe 5 with 99 and 04 being the other years.

[Mr. Jabbar]

probably none

[HurricaneKid]

LeBron, let's face it, has had his playoff demons that didn't go away til 2012.

This is absurd. He scored 29 straight points to lead his team to the NBA Finals in 04. In 08 he scored 45 points in G7 against the Champion Celtics. His WS/48 in 09 set the NBA playoff record.

Up until this year LeBron has still never been on a team that could compete without him. Even when he was winning 66 games when he went to the bench the Cavs were -134 points (or -7.3 pp48). Joins the Heat, guess what, they have still been outscored all three years when he isn't on the floor.

[SpaceJammeR]

what's up with people saying lebron wasn't clutch? in his cleveland days he was unbelievable.

[Nash]

Lebron was averaging 27/7/7 his sophmore year. With the most dominant force in the NBA they would still have won. Honestly though, doesn't matter, Shaq was always going to get his 3 rings with Lebron, Kobe or any other star perimeter player. He was that good and unstoppable.

[Magic 32]

In 08 he scored 45 points in G7 against the Champion Celtics.

http://oi43.tinypic.com/xf0tjd.jpg


He scored 29 straight points to lead his team to the NBA Finals in 04

You wish. That would actually have be an accomplishment.

No, he did it in 2007, the worst eastern conference of the last 35 years.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/061129

This was his FG% in the final game of every series in 2007...

.364
.400
.273
.333

[branslowski]

Does it bother Kobe fans that Shaq would have won at least two rings with Pierce, Carter, T-Mac, Ray Allen and Allen Iverson from that same time period?

You posters are dumb. Just because those wing players were also good, doesn't mean you can replace Kobe with them. It's more to a game of basketball than just stats. It's intangibles, having an inner winning pedigree, being able to close games on both ends of the floor, exc..

Yawl seem to just look at Kobe's early career finals numbers and think because such n such player avg those type numbers during the regular season that you could just replace them with Kobe and gain the same results.

It's as if you imbeciles didn't even watch what Kobe did in the playoffs leading up to those finals. It's as If you didn't see the countless times Shaq would foul out or be tookin off the floor due to his inept ft shooting and or stamina, and leave Kobe to close out games.

Kobes just that type player who works hard to be a winner and the best at what he does..And yawl tryin to replace him with ringless VC, and T Mac? Lack of defense player Ray Allen? You couldn't plug Iverson on a player and tell him to shut him down like you could Kobe.

Even after Shaq left, Kobe still ends up with 2 titles and finals MVPs with a 18ppg 10reb type player who wasn't even on a dominant radar untill after joining Kobe...Kobe won a title with his starting Center avg 6ppg 3reb, his PG avg 7ppg 3ast and his SF avg 11ppg 4reb on 41%fg...Seriously? Kobes just one of those pure winners and leaders.

T Mac had more help in Houston than Kobe did for his last 2 titles, why T Mac still can't get out of the first round? With Yao Ming who was a multiple Allstar All NBA player and considered by many to be close to Shaq as best Center in the league. Shit if he played today, he would be the best...If Yao played with Kobe? Yao would have rings and be overrated by all Kobe haters out of jealousy towards Bryant. But yawl still tryna replace TMac with him.

Look, I know alot of Kobe stans force yawl to be haters, but it seems they forced yawl to be mindless moronic dumbass's aswell. Just accept the fact that Kobe is Kobe and he's an All Time great; winners win, period.

[redboy]

what the hell is the point of this thread if you're not going to listen to the opinion of others? you sound extremely insecure by making this thread. i'm not a lebron hater by any means, but part of what made that team so good was kobe's ability to turn it on and close at any given time. lebron does so many things for his team and is more used to playing with a group of shooters rather than a half court setting with a traditional big man. i think that the offense with lebron would suffer because the paint would be a lot more crowded and it's not like lebron was some clutch finals performer until after 2012

[imdaman99]

Lebron has never played on a team where the ball is fed into the post and offense is run through a big man. He couldnt even shoot well until later in his career. With Shaq demanding double triples in the paint think how packed it would be in there. There would have to be an in between game and Lebron didnt have that back then.

Kobe operated in the midrange extended. Feeding the post, working the triangle, taking a few dribbles and pulling up from midrange while the defenses sank on Shaq.

How are we supposed to act like Lebron would be able to do all those same things, nevermind do them at an elite level, when they are nothing like how he played the game? Is bron going off against the spurs and the kings when teams like that gave him tons of trouble? Its like rock paper scissors.. Kobe could take care of those matchups far better.. and those were some of Lakers biggest tests.
This.

[Bigsmoke]

Put 96-2003 Shaq in place of bron 2003-2010 cavs, how many rings they win?

0 and would leave

[Element]

Zero

No NBA Superstar would ever win an NBA title if Mo Williams is your 2nd scoring option.

Mo disappeared ala Harry Houdini in the playoffs.

They win in 07
They probably win in 09

[Odinn]

Finally, a thread can be called original that involves LeBorn, Kobe and Shaq.

---


1997 - 03-04 LeBron
1998 - 04-05 LeBron
1999 - 05-06 LeBron
2000 - 06-07 LeBron
2001 - 07-08 LeBron
2002 - 08-09 LeBron
2003 - 09-10 LeBron
2004 - 10-11 LeBron

Same three rings IMO. They'd have a shot in 03, 04, but LeBron had playoff issues in the corresponding years. Maybe with a threepeat under his belt it doesn't happen? Who knows, I guess.

EDIT: 2000 is slightly iffy, depending on how that Portland series goes.
I kinda agree with this. There wouldn't be a much of a difference in 2003 and 2004. But the Lakers would have a realistic chance at winning it all in 1998 and 1999, too.

[Miller for 3]

0 rings. 2 above .500 seasons but miss playoffs. Remember, this is when handchecking was legal, and Lebron is a 19 pgg on 53 TS% player against handchecking, plus the West was stacked and Lebron is mentally weak. Lots of lottery picks though, but Lebron retires in 05 and the Lakers win the 06 championship

[STATUTORY]

They would never have gotten past the Spurs

Bron always struggle against Pop's schemes and Duncan always had Shaq's heart

[avonbarksdale]

i think lebron23 is by far the worst poster on this site

cavaliersftw, you are now in the 2 spot, congrats

[7_cody]

How effective would the inside out game that Kobe and Shaq used be? You could sag off LeBron, help on Shaq all day long

I don't think the spacing would have been as elite. Whose going to use the lane, Shaq or LeBron? Is Shaq going to space the floor for LeBron to play the drive and kick game, or is his man going to cheat and keep a foot in the paint to take the rim away from him? Or is LeBron going to play 1 on 1 to create his own shot, like Kobe could?

It's not simply that Kobe > LeBron, the pieces just don't fit as well. Kobe and Shaq were literally the perfect combination in that neither of them had to sacrifice anything offensively, other than touches, for each other to score. Neither of them needed the right system or teammates (shooters and spacing) to dominate, but LeBron does.

[NumberSix]

5 minimum.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Is Lebron going to dominate the Spurs in the playoffs like Kobe did?

Doubtful

Teams would just clog the lane and dare Lebron to shoot jumpers while they keep it away from Shaq especially I this is 03-10 Lebron..

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

MORE than what Kobe won.

LeBron is a MUCH better passer. PJax also would help LeBron adjust his game properly. He didn't necessarily HAVE TO BE a jumpshooter, anyway.

[TheMarkMadsen]

MORE than what Kobe won.

LeBron is a MUCH better passer. PJax also would help LeBron adjust his game properly. He didn't necessarily HAVE TO BE a jumpshooter, anyway.

Does a 21 year old Lebron put up these numbers against Prime Duncan with Pop game planning..I mean Pop shut down a 22 year old Lebron completely and took a prime Lebron off his game for 5 3/4 finals game with a good gameplan..

Game 1: 45 & 10 on 54%

Game 2: 28/6/7/2 on 46% with Shaq shooting 38% on 21 shots. Lakers still win

Game 3: 36/9/8 on 52%

Game 4: 24 & 11 assist on 53% shooting

In the WCF. A 21YO Lebron isn't getting that kind of production in the wcf against Timmy & Pop

[branslowski]

Does a 21 year old Lebron put up these numbers against Prime Duncan with Pop game planning..I mean Pop shut down a 22 year old Lebron completely and took a prime Lebron off his game for 5 3/4 finals game with a good gameplan..

Game 1: 45 & 10 on 54%

Game 2: 28/6/7/2 on 46% with Shaq shooting 38% on 21 shots. Lakers still win

Game 3: 36/9/8 on 52%

Game 4: 24 & 11 assist on 53% shooting

In the WCF. A 21YO Lebron isn't getting that kind of production in the wcf against Timmy & Pop

Check.mate:applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Does a 21 year old Lebron put up these numbers against Prime Duncan with Pop game planning..I mean Pop shut down a 22 year old Lebron completely and took a prime Lebron off his game for 5 3/4 finals game with a good gameplan..

Game 1: 45 & 10 on 54%

Game 2: 28/6/7/2 on 46% with Shaq shooting 38% on 21 shots. Lakers still win

Game 3: 36/9/8 on 52%

Game 4: 24 & 11 assist on 53% shooting

In the WCF. A 21YO Lebron isn't getting that kind of production in the wcf against Timmy & Pop

Prime LeBron showed up when it counted most.

22 y/o LeBron didn't have enough help (or in Kobe's case, a behemoth waiting in the paint).

[D.J.]

Prime LeBron showed up when it counted most.


LeBron was crumbling like a cookie in 4th quarters as late as 2011.

[coin24]

Zero

No NBA Superstar would ever win an NBA title if Mo Williams is your 2nd scoring option.

Mo disappeared ala LEBRON IN THE 2011 FINALS.

Fixed that for you:cheers:

Nice topic, forever comparing Lebron to the greater Kobe, stay insecure:oldlol:

[Genaro]

Less than Kobe that's for sure.
I'm not taking a back handed slap on Lebron, it's just that Kobe was a much better fit.
First of all Lakers played in the triangule, that means Lebron would have to play more off the ball, decreasing his impact.
Kobe back then was a better defender than Lebron from the pointed time.
Different rules in the game that means he wouldn't be cruising in the paint.
Shaq and the others team defenses would be clogging the paint
His jump shot isn't relieble until today (though most stans like to forget the last finals' first 6 games)
He wasn't clutch.

[STATUTORY]

still no one has answered the question of how that team would beat Duncan's Spurs during the three peat years.

The reason that Kobe was the real MVP of those Lakers championship teams was because the real finals was in actuality the WCF because the east was an utter joke. and any lakers fans of a certain age will be able to recall how Kobe's heroics bailed the team and Shaq out against the Spurs multiple times

[Odinn]

still no one has answered the question of how that team would beat Duncan's Spurs during the three peat years.

The reason that Kobe was the real MVP of those Lakers championship teams was because the real finals was in actuality the WCF because the east was an utter joke. and any lakers fans of a certain age will be able to recall how Kobe's heroics bailed the team and Shaq out against the Spurs multiple times
You are a proven idiot that doesn't need to be answered... Yet, to shut you up I'm gonna answer.


2000- Duncan was hurt
2001- The only 15+ ppg was injured and the Spurs perimeter players were just bunch of old-@sses
2002- DRob was injured

If they hadn't health issues, still the Spurs wouldn't be a title contender in 2001 and 2002.


LeBron stans cry about that weak-@ss cast in Cleveland. And Kobe stans cry about post-Shaq / pre-Gasol span. And both sides use those situtation to glorify their favourite player. Duncan's supporting cast wasn't that different, but how many people consider this and try to glorify Duncan?

Now STFU you f.cking prick.

[tpols]

Duncan's supporting cast wasn't that different, but how many people consider this and try to glorify Duncan?

People generally just say that Duncan carried nobodies to titles pre-05 so I dont see why any of that would matter.:confusedshrug:

[inclinerator]

phil jackson would be lebron's best coach by far, ppl underrated what a good coach can do to great players

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron didn't get a mid range game until 2012, the year he finally won. Coincidence? Afraid not. Everything before that was rich man's James Harden offensively. 3's, or driving to the cup. No in between game.

That's why he struggled against good defenses in the playoffs before 2012. That's why with Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, DeShawn Stevenson guarding him in the Finals, with Chandler protecting the rim he went Patrick Swyaze on the big stage.

Broke jumper, suspect mid range game, no post up ability.

So, I don't think LeBron is winning much of anything on those Laker teams the way he played during those ages. Players like Iverson, McGrady, Ray Allen, Wade, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller would've more closely been able to replicate what Kobe did before LeBron could.

Probably without the ego clash too, so with those guys they may have been able to win all the way up to 2004 as well.

Though some of those guys can't give you the perimeter defense Kobe did, those guys being: Iverson, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller. So they probably don't win in that situation either.

McGrady, Pierce, Wade, prime Richmond are the only guys who might be able to replicate and win multiple rings as Shaq's sidekick during those seasons.

People always claim Shaq's peak to be the most dominant during those seasons, yet everyone purposely forgets he wasn't even his team's closer. Shaq after the 2000 seasons needed that superstar, near co-alpha caliber Kobe to win multiple rings.

[STATUTORY]

You are a proven idiot that doesn't need to be answered... Yet, to shut you up I'm gonna answer.


2000- Duncan was hurt
2001- The only 15+ ppg was injured and the Spurs perimeter players were just bunch of old-@sses
2002- DRob was injured

If they hadn't health issues, still the Spurs wouldn't be a title contender in 2001 and 2002.


LeBron stans cry about that weak-@ss cast in Cleveland. And Kobe stans cry about post-Shaq / pre-Gasol span. And both sides use those situtation to glorify their favourite player. Duncan's supporting cast wasn't that different, but how many people consider this and try to glorify Duncan?

Now STFU you f.cking prick.

:facepalm what kind of spurs fan are you that you don't think Duncan was good enough to take on Shaq and 20 year old Bron?

[Jameerthefear]

maybe once or twices. people are right. LBJ's in between game was suspect.

[Lebron23]

phil jackson would be lebron's best coach by far, ppl underrated what a good coach can do to great players


With Lebron James in the lineup they wouldn't need to trade Eddie Jones to the Charlotte Hornets. Here's the starting lineup of the alternate version of the 2000 Lakers. Jones was a solid defender.

G- Ron Harper
G- Eddie Jones
F- Lebron James
F- AC Green
C- Shaquille O'Neal.

Lebron in his sophomore season in the NBA is a much better player than Kobe in his 4th season.

[tpols]

maybe once or twices. people are right. LBJ's in between game was suspect.
His defense back then was too. But you also have to take into account that he was his teams only offensive force so he was putting all his energy into scoring and playmaking. Kobe came off the bench and had to learn how to facilitate in the triangle and play defense before he could start scoring. So they had opposite learning curves.

Still though.. Lebron's midrange game is shaky even to this day.. last years finals versus spurs and versus mavs is the prime example. He can get shook and start second guessing it even after he proved he had it.

[Miller for 3]

With Lebron James in the lineup they wouldn't need to trade Eddie Jones to the Charlotte Hornets. Here's the starting lineup of the alternate version of the 2000 Lakers. Jones was a solid defender.

G- Ron Harper
G- Eddie Jones
F- Lebron James
F- AC Green
C- Shaquille O'Neal.

Lebron in his sophomore season in the NBA is a much better player than Kobe in his 4th season.

Kobe at 19 against handchecking > prime 28 year old LBJ against handchecking. Remember him getting worked by Ike Diogu in the Olympics? :eek: :cry:

:rockon: :rockon: :bowdown: :cheers: :banana: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

With Lebron James in the lineup they wouldn't need to trade Eddie Jones to the Charlotte Hornets. Here's the starting lineup of the alternate version of the 2000 Lakers. Jones was a solid defender.

G- Ron Harper
G- Eddie Jones
F- Lebron James
F- AC Green
C- Shaquille O'Neal.

Lebron in his sophomore season in the NBA is a much better player than Kobe in his 4th season.

Just stop. Kobe was miles ahead of Lebron defensively.

Kobe was first team all defense, Lebron was no team all defense

[Lebron23]

LMAO at this stupid troll. Lebron was the best player of Team USA in the 2012 Olympics.

Jones-Lebron-Shaq would still be a solid trio. They traded Jones to the Hornets because they wanted Kobe to be the Lakers starting SG.


http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbkz0v40gW1qa47iwo1_500.jpg

[Lebron23]

Just stop. Kobe was miles ahead of Lebron defensively.

Kobe was first team all defense, Lebron was no team all defense

statistically better ( points, rebounds, and assists). Lebron averaged over 2.3 spg in his 2nd season in the league. Jones would be a perfect replacement. He was also a good defender during his prime.

[moe94]

Kobe was first team all defense, Lebron was no team all defense

All defense teams? Is Kobe the greatest perimeter defender of all time that his accolades suggest he is?

[TheMarkMadsen]

All defense teams? Is Kobe the greatest perimeter defender of all time that his accolades suggest he is?

What does that have to do with what I said.

[Odinn]

:facepalm what kind of spurs fan are you that you don't think Duncan was good enough to take on Shaq and 20 year old Bron?
There is a certain difference between being a fan and being a stan. But I do not think you can understand that.:oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

statistically better ( points, rebounds, and assists). Lebron averaged over 2.3 spg in his 2nd season in the league. Jones would be a perfect replacement. He was also a good defender during his prime.

Statistically better because he's playing on a team that didnt make the playoffs and while having the green light to do whatever the wants.

[Owl]

For all the, "Kobe spaced the floor", "LeBron can't shoot" comments.

Kobes first 8 years
3pt% .331 on 2.6 attempts a game

WITH Shaq commanding double teams

LeBron's first 8 years

3pt% .329 on 4.2 attempts per game

Without a dominant center (some would say without much of an offense really).

Bearing in mind the circumstances and the increased difficult with a higher load you can make a solid case that LeBron was better from three.

Free throw percentages do give an indication that Kobe was a good shooter from midrange, LeBron merely adequate.

Both were primarily drivers with Kobe averaging 6.7 trips to the free throw line per 36 minutes, and LeBron averaging 8 per 36.

Put simply, I wouldn't think spacing is the issue many have made it out to be. I'm not saying doesn't help more in that area, I'm just not convinced LeBron was ever a bad shooter.

Of course it depends how you're interpreting the question. Are we throwing LeBron as he has developed into those Laker teams, or are we factoring in how the different environment alters his development.

If we conjecture that LA wins titles earlier does that mean they retain Del Harris or Rambis instead of getting Phil? Do trades stay the same or are they different (and if different with or without the knock on effects on other teams, do draft orders change etc).

Are we supposed to assume games and series would go more or less as they did, and merely substitute what we'd expect from LeBron in for Kobe as though the actions of all other players are predestined? Or are we matching up the new teams and balancing the probablities anew?

Anyway in terms of the quality gap between the players (something OP may be alluding to) it's probably greatest in years 2 and 3, so that may be where the greatest change in odds occurs (though whether that swing happens to cross the tipping point between improbable and probable is another issue), though this is without factoring in on-court chemistry.

Ironically we'd be subbing in a LeBron who was too passive in his 8th year finals, for a Kobe who was too aggressive in his.

[coin24]

That version of LeBron on any team = instant titles:bowdown:
Clearly displayed by him joining the stacked Heat and his amazing performance in the 2011 finals:rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Was this Lebron better than mid 90s Penny?

Why does Shaq always get to be the constant variable in these hypotheticals? It's not like he never lost with a lot of talent around him.

If Penny never played with Shaq, and in 2013 we asked "Would 93-97 Penny win rings with 93-97 Shaq" the answer would be unanimous yes at least one in 94 or 95

[SpecialQue]

1, in 2000.

[coin24]

Was this Lebron better than mid 90s Penny?

Why does Shaq always get to be the constant variable in these hypotheticals? It's not like he never lost with a lot of talent around him.

If Penny never played with Shaq, and in 2013 we asked "Would 93-97 Penny win rings with 93-97 Shaq" the answer would be unanimous yes at least one in 94 or 95


Youre basically asking why a guy who calls himself LeBron 23 from LeBronville made a Lebron vs Kobe thread:oldlol:

[magnax1]

Idk. I feel like Lebron was more impactful on his own, but Shaq was the better player and Lebron just cant do much without the ball even now. Lebron also wasnt the defender Kobe was, which was really their calling card in 00. Id expect them to win, but maybe in 99 and 00 instead of 00 01 and 02. Maybe 04 too? I kind of doubt that but its possible.

[Miller for 3]

For all the, "Kobe spaced the floor", "LeBron can't shoot" comments.

Kobes first 8 years
3pt% .331 on 2.6 attempts a game

WITH Shaq commanding double teams

LeBron's first 8 years

3pt% .329 on 4.2 attempts per game

Without a dominant center (some would say without much of an offense really).

.

are you trolling? Kobe's midrange game is what everyone is saying separated him from young Lebrick.


Kobe 2001 from 10ft to 16ft : 45.9% on 5.2 attempts a game
Kobe 2002 from 10ft to 16ft: 44.3% on 5.2 attempts per game

Lebrick 2007 10ft to 16ft : 34.1% on 2.8 attempts per game
Lebrick 2008 10ft to 16ft: 28.1% on 2.04 attempts per game

Lebron had no inbetween game until 2012. With no defensive 3 seconds, double/triple teams on Shaq clogging the paint, and handchecking, Lebron would not get to the paint at all, and would be bricking 12 footers all game. The Lakers would be a constant lottery team until they traded Lebron

[Owl]

Statistically better because he's playing on a team that didnt make the playoffs and while having the green light to do whatever the wants.
But there's an efficiency usage trade off. LeBron was taking more shots (many more in absolute terms, a couple more per 36) and being slightly more efficient with them (admittedly this is without calculating league average ts% for each year but at a quick glance at shooting percentages they look comparable). A secondary option without that shot creation burden shoul, all things being equal, have better percentages. That Kobe doesn't suggests he wasn't LeBron's equal at that point. And that's without noting how many double teams LA's first option drew.

[Owl]

are you trolling? Kobe's midrange game is what everyone is saying separated him from young Lebrick.


Kobe 2001 from 10ft to 16ft : 45.9% on 5.2 attempts a game
Kobe 2002 from 10ft to 16ft: 44.3% on 5.2 attempts per game

Lebrick 2007 10ft to 16ft : 34.1% on 2.8 attempts per game
Lebrick 2008 10ft to 16ft: 28.1% on 2.04 attempts per game

Lebron had no inbetween game until 2012. With no defensive 3 seconds, double/triple teams on Shaq clogging the paint, and handchecking, Lebron would not get to the paint at all, and would be bricking 12 footers all game. The Lakers would be a constant lottery team until they traded Lebron
One, way to take out all contextual elements that say Kobe was a better midrange shooter. Also kudos on your clear neutrality "LeBrick" etc.

Why compare year 3 and 4 LeBron with year 5 and 6 Kobe? Cherry picking much?
Why only 10 to 16 feet. Cherry picking. And who stops teams clogging the paint with a 10ft jumper?

[magnax1]

There really shouldnt be an argument about who had a better jumper or who was more skilled. Its kobe, and thats clear to anyone who was unbiased and saw them both.

[Owl]

Was this Lebron better than mid 90s Penny?

Why does Shaq always get to be the constant variable in these hypotheticals? It's not like he never lost with a lot of talent around him.

If Penny never played with Shaq, and in 2013 we asked "Would 93-97 Penny win rings with 93-97 Shaq" the answer would be unanimous yes at least one in 94 or 95
Year 1 LeBron was significantly worse than apex Penny, only a little better than rookie Penny.

Year 2 and 4 LeBron are rougly even with apex Penny ('96 Penny). In all other years LeBron has a significant edge.

Shaq did lose with talent around him in Orlando and in LA. He was on teams that underperformed in the playoffs. That said when Orlando went to the finals it's hard to blame Shaq for Nick Anderson scoring 12.25 ppg on .450 ts% and Dennis Scott scoring 10.5 ppg on .457 ts%.

Penny like Shaq shot very well albeit both were a little turnover prone.

Indeed look at all Shaq's pre-title years his playoff numbers are impressive.

[Miller for 3]

One, way to take out all contextual elements that say Kobe was a better midrange shooter. Also kudos on your clear neutrality "LeBrick" etc.

Why compare year 3 and 4 LeBron with year 5 and 6 Kobe? Cherry picking much?
Why only 10 to 16 feet. Cherry picking. And who stops teams clogging the paint with a 10ft jumper?

:facepalm

Same age you troll. And it's year 5 and 6 Kobe compared to year 4 and 5 Lebron. Not Kobe's fault he could handle the perils of the NBA(with handchecking mind you) at a earlier age than Lebron.

10-16 = midrage. Have you read any of this thread? It's been explained ad nauesm that a midrange game is how to break down the elite paint packing defenses that were common in the early 2000s. Look at how the Heat had no shot at winning the last Finals until Lebron's jumper finally arrived (all uncontested shots given to him by defenders playign 5 feet off, but still, I suppose it's impressive)

[Owl]

:facepalm

Same age you troll. And it's year 5 and 6 Kobe compared to year 4 and 5 Lebron. Not Kobe's fault he could handle the perils of the NBA(with handchecking mind you) at a earlier age than Lebron.

10-16 = midrage. Have you read any of this thread? It's been explained ad nauesm that a midrange game is how to break down the elite paint packing defenses that were common in the early 2000s. Look at how the Heat had no shot at winning the last Finals until Lebron's jumper finally arrived (all uncontested shots given to him by defenders playign 5 feet off, but still, I suppose it's impressive)

1) Your assertion that Kobe "could handle the perils of the NBA at an earlier age than LeBron" belies your bias. LeBron went to the NBA as early as he could. Would you have him jump to the pros as after his junior year in high school? Or should he have been born later in the school year so he was younger on graduation? And why you picked specific years rather than the full range of years discussed. Could it be because you didn't want to include Kobe's lower percentage (and higher assisted) years?

2) Regarding "10-16 = midra[n]ge" Looking at the first handful of sites googled for NBA midrange none, that's none, referred to 10-16 as the exclusive area that is midrange. Definitions generally say from 10 feet to the three point line. So there's no reason for you to isolate 10-16, unless you were cherry picking LeBron's worst range. If you were to select between 10-<16 and 16-<23 for floor spacing than you take the latter because (a) being further out it better represents spacing, and (b) because for both players more shots were taken from the outer range, and so it's more representative of how players actually shot. If you cared about full disclosure you'd have noted how much more often Kobe's shots from that range were assisted than LeBron's.

3) It hasn't been explained anywhere that "a midrange game is how to break down the elite paint packing defenses that were common in the early 2000s". Posts 17, 55 and 69 have refered to spacing, the triangle and Kobe having a better midrange game (something, which if you read my post I didn't dispute). This discussion isn't exclusively about "the early 2000s" and it's odd that you think a ten to fifteen footer would stop defenders packing the paint.

4) The notion that a player (a three time MVP before his first title) must necessarily have a midrange shot up to a specific, arbitrary, degree before his teams can win a title is clearly a ludicrous assertion. In regard to the series in particular Miami got to 3-3 with LeBron shooting disappointingly, so to assert that they had "no chance" is clearly nonsense. LeBron clearly isn't dependent on that weapon to be effective.