Do People Really Think MJ is Some Untouchable GOAT God on an Unreachable Pedestal?

[atljonesbro]

Do people truly believe he's an untouchable lord who will never be surpassed and is Jesus walking on earth? I'm assuming it's mainly the old geezers who think this, but how could anyone be so na

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I have him as my GOAT but I wouldn't call someone who had Russell or Kareem over him an idiot.

[Kaspah]

He's the ultimate GOAT of goats in any sport

He dominated. Always.

Stats through the roof, and even then-

His play transcends stats. He brought style and poise. He not only beat you but he destroyed you.

The ultimate winner

He won't be dethroned until someone else can captivate the world the way he did

[sportjames23]

[QUOTE=atljonesbro]Do people truly believe he's an untouchable lord who will never be surpassed and is Jesus walking on earth? I'm assuming it's mainly the old geezers who think this, but how could anyone be so na

[moe94]

He's the ultimate GOAT of goats in any sport
d

Wayne Gretzky dominated his peers to a greater extent than Jordan and it's not even close. Donald Bradman is another. Messi is arguably more dominant than Jordan ever was.

[#number6ix#]

Kareem is the goat... Scored more than mike, more mvps,same amount of rings,more Allstar appearances,etc

Mike just was marketed better by Nike and the nba

[moe94]

Kareem is the goat... Scored more than mike, more mvps,same amount of rings,more Allstar appearances,etc

Mike just was marketed better by Nike and the nba

Kareem is better because his career was longer and had more media trophies and accolades than a guy who you say is built by the media? Interesting.

[#number6ix#]

Kareem is better because his career was longer and had more media trophies and accolades than a guy who you say is built by the media? Interesting.
Not only the awards but he was the most dominate at every level of basketball he played... Not to mention he had the unstoppable sky hook...

Who would u draft first mj or kaj

[jlip]

Kareem is better because his career was longer and had more media trophies and accolades than a guy who you say is built by the media? Interesting.

All of Kareem's MVPs were voted on by the players, not the media. His last MVP was in 1980. The media started voting for MVPs in somewhere around '82 or '83

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kareem is the goat... Scored more than mike, more mvps,same amount of rings,more Allstar appearances,etc

Mike just was marketed better by Nike and the nba
Their rings are not comparable at all.

[moe94]

Who would u draft first mj or kaj

That's a different question entirely. I'd draft Alonzo Mourning over Kevin Durant but I don't think Zo is a better player than Durant.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I see a massive attention whores, OP, and people with multiple posts already. Troll harder.

[atljonesbro]

I see a massive attention whores, OP, and people with multiple posts already. Troll harder.
What, are you mad not everyone worships your hero?

[moe94]

What, are you mad not everyone worships your hero?

He doesn't understand he's proving your thread. The irony is cleanly over his head.

[fpliii]

Some people do, some don't (personally my top few players are all bigs). GOAT candidate no matter how you slice it.

[DuMa]

the Legend of Michael Jordan only grows stronger with your hate.

[Myth]

I think if LeBron had snuck a couple championships while he was with the Cavs before doing what he is doing with the Heat, he would be a legit GOAT candidate. But he hasn't. My point is, we already had 1 guy come in with a legit chance of being the GOAT in the first 15 years post-Jordan. I think in the next 15 years or so, we could see another person with a chance. If the NBA lasts another 100 years, my guess is that Jordan will be surpassed.

[Element]

I'm the biggest Kobe stan there is but MJ is hands down GOAT

Imo only Kareem has an argument. People put way too much stock into Bill Russell's rings. Had Wilt been on those Celtics teams, then Russ would be ringless.

[fpliii]

I'm the biggest Kobe stan there is but MJ is hands down GOAT

Imo only Kareem has an argument. People put way too much stock into Bill Russell's rings. Had Wilt been on those Celtics teams, then Russ would be ringless.

:facepalm

[Young X]

He is.

[moe94]

I think if LeBron had snuck a couple championships while he was with the Cavs before doing what he is doing with the Heat, he would be a legit GOAT candidate. But he hasn't.

I'm not saying LeBron even has a chance to surpass Jordan but why is that condition necessary? What has Jordan done without his all time great teammates and personnel?

[Element]

I think if LeBron had snuck a couple championships while he was with the Cavs before doing what he is doing with the Heat, he would be a legit GOAT candidate. But he hasn't. My point is, we already had 1 guy come in with a legit chance of being the GOAT in the first 15 years post-Jordan. I think in the next 15 years or so, we could see another person with a chance. If the NBA lasts another 100 years, my guess is that Jordan will be surpassed.

Shaq didn't have a chance? Imagine Lakers stay healthy in 03 and 04. They were an in-and-out away from a game 7 vs San Antonio and imo healthy Kobe would've put them over the top. In 04 Shaq and Kobe both suffered nagging injuries, Kobe had the rape case and Malone was injured in the Finals...Potential 5 (!) peat with 3-4 FMVP's...by 03 Kobe was good enough to snag one himself imo. Then he wins another one with Miami...He definitely had his chances.

[Element]

:facepalm

Wilt>Russell as a player

It's like LeBron>Kobe as a player but Kobe is still ahead on the GOAT list because of career achievements...same with Wilt and Russell

[The Iron Fist]

He's the ultimate GOAT of goats in any sport

He dominated. Always.

Stats through the roof, and even then-

His play transcends stats. He brought style and poise. He not only beat you but he destroyed you.

The ultimate winner

He won't be dethroned until someone else can captivate the world the way he did

Always? So why does he only have 6 finals appearances compared to 10 for Kareem and 11 for Russell?

[SamuraiSWISH]

No one has ever said he's untouchable. LeBron had a legitimate shot to carve out a better legacy than Jordan. Shaq did as well, as basically a modern Wilt Chamberlain. Hell, Kobe had the opportunity as well as the cover band version of Jordan. Kobe had 3 rings before 23, and was the alpha on the Lakers since 26 years old. All three players could've ended up being better, carving out better resume but haven't.

It's just when people who clearly never saw him play want to call Jordan overrated, or knock him down a peg to boost someone else up. I'm not letting anyone do that. Especially not anyone with a clear cut agenda.

Contextually it's not even close. MJ never disappointed in some fashion like all of the other top ten players have at some point. He always met or exceeded hype. It's how he won and accomplished things that separates him.



Always? So why does he only have 6 finals appearances compared to 10 for Kareem and 11 for Russell?
Because pre 1991, his cast was quite bad. He didn't get any help from previously established stars, either. He basically molded his team's second best player over 3 years. Once MJ had the tools, he was always in the race for a ring. And with full seasons under his belt, ALWAYS won championships.

[jlip]

I'm the biggest Kobe stan there is but MJ is hands down GOAT

Imo only Kareem has an argument. People put way too much stock into Bill Russell's rings. Had Wilt been on those Celtics teams, then Russ would be ringless.

This is simply not true. People who have Russell as GOAT don't do so just because of "rings". They also take into consideration that he has as many MVPs as MJ and won them during the statistical primes of several top 20 all time players. He also has statistical titles himself, is widely regarded as the greatest defender ever, and was known to raise his game when it mattered most.

Also it should be worth noting that while talking about Russell's "rings", he won his last two while being underdogs in several of the series and while simultaneously being the starting center and coach. Heck...the last one in 1969, his Celtics were underdogs in every series and had to win each one on the road.

[K Xerxes]

I don't really think this scenario is possible in such a team oriented game like basketball. Most people who say this are exaggerating, or just want to knock down whoever is being compared (like Kobe or LeBron).

Unless a person comes in who literally shatters records beyond belief (i.e. averages 40-50 points, shoots 70% etc etc) and wins numerous times, I will never be sure that one player is the GOAT as eras, leagues, teams and scenarios are all different.

Personally, I have a small group of major GOAT contenders, with Jordan currently being the strongest candidate for that title, although if you consider all levels of basketball (high school, college and NBA), it's hard to look past Kareem.

[rmt]

I'm by no means a MJ fan, but there was an aura about him that he (and his opponent) knew that he was going to find a way to win. Lebron does not have that aura. If not for a Ray Allen 3, he'd be ragged on and criticized for having "only" 1 ring/1FMVP. MJ had the stats, the peak, the longevity - without the "all-star" cast (I mean, they eventually became stars - but not the franchise players that Wade and Bosh were).

I don't like the guy, but MJ is my GOAT. Like it or not, KAJ is "penalized" for playing with Magic and Russell just did not have the offensive prowess of MJ while MJ's defense was not exactly chopped liver. Everyone has "holes" in their resume but MJ has the least and delivered in the clutch.

[Ken_Masters]

What makes Jordan the best player in my eyes is the fact that he was undefeated in the finals, could have possibly had a 7 or 8 peat if he never retired, plus he was devastating on the offensive AND defensive end. I have never seen Kareem play so i cannot comment on him. But i have seen LeBron, Mike, and Kobe and of that group i believe Jordan is clearly superior.

[magnax1]

Why do people ask this question? Ive never seen anyone say this before. You have to be trolling to get a rise out of people if youre asking this question. Lots of people think hes easily the best. Ive never once seen someone call him untouchable.

[funnystuff]

Who knows, he's only merely been a winner for 1/3 of his career. (6-15)

Yet people put him on the pedestal because of the fantastic marketing in the 90s. Jordan was the face of the NBA because of the media.

[pauk]

Yes.

[funnystuff]

Wilt>Russell as a player

It's like LeBron>Kobe as a player but Kobe is still ahead on the GOAT list because of career achievements...same with Wilt and Russell
Most people have Lebron above Kobe on the GOAT list now.

[ballinhun8]

Yes.


UNDEFEATED on the grandest stage.

[BoutPractice]

They do, but in fact I don't think Jordan is worshipped because he is seen as a God: Jordan delivered the perfect narrative of the hero who becomes a God, overcoming adversity along the way. The classical God-like figure in the NBA is Wilt, and he's not as revered precisely because he's "just" a God. There's no human connection to be found with him, he was just born superior, and while it's fun to watch him do godly things, it's too removed from people's experiences. Wilt is at his most fascinating when he shows human weakness. Same thing with Shaq. The idea that any middle class kid who was cut from his high school team can become Jordan is what the myth is all about.

Narrative matters when it comes to greatness, because it's something completely subjective; and within narratives the "heroic" narrative is the most successful one in sports. That's where Kareem suffers: essentially he's seen as a tall guy who was really good at shooting a ball through a hoop. Similarly, although LeBron has an interesting narrative (child prodigy humbled by experience before realizing his full potential) there is nothing "heroic" about him.

[hitmanyr2k]

Who knows, he's only merely been a winner for 1/3 of his career. (6-15)

Yet people put him on the pedestal because of the fantastic marketing in the 90s. Jordan was the face of the NBA because of the media.

The way you put it you make it sound like Jordan did nothing to warrant the marketing he got. He did amazing shit with the basketball and made the impossible look routine. Who the **** isn't going to market that? He was the face of the league for a reason and it was more about his skill and flamboyance than anything. People put him on a pedestal because win or lose he was one of the most entertaining athletes of all-time. Combine insane flair with winning and you get put on a pedestal. It's that simple. It's not like it was some undeserved hype.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yet people put him on the pedestal because of the fantastic marketing in the 90s. Jordan was the face of the NBA because of the media.Right, Jordan was the face of the league because of a marketing conspiracy. His performances were all a hoax.

Your username is quite befitting of the content of your posts.

I take MJ's will power and heart alone over anyone else's talent in league history.

Then you add the fact he is probably up there as the most talented, skillful player with the greatest intangibles ... Never disappointed like Shaq, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, and never wet the bed in cowardly fashion like LeBron?

Wasn't weak on one side of the ball, on an absolutely loaded roster like Russell. More consistent peak longevity than Hakeem? Wasn't ever the 2nd best player on his championship teams like Kareem? Won more than a talented, selfish loser like Oscar Robertson. Performed like West in the clutch, but actually delivered the hardware.

Transformed an irrelevant basketball franchise into the 3rd best basketball franchise. Didn't beg for help. Didn't leave like a selfish, coward. Remained loyal as long as he could.

Doesn't it make him the obvious choice for GOAT? Not to mention getting hosed out of a few MVPs, and left a couple championship opportunities on the table when he retired the first time in his prime?

Yup, clearly MJ was a product of marketing.

:oldlol:

[Mr. Jabbar]

mmm yes.

[Dro]

Didn't even read the thread..I just know it reeks of anger....anyway...don't be mad....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sLAbHud8bQ

[NewYorkNoPicks]

[QUOTE=atljonesbro]Do people truly believe he's an untouchable lord who will never be surpassed and is Jesus walking on earth? I'm assuming it's mainly the old geezers who think this, but how could anyone be so na

[Bandito]

Some people have Lebron above Kobe on the GOAT list now.
All Lebron Stans:lol

[russwest0]

If you don't have Michael Jordan or Kareem as your GOAT then you know absolutely nothing about basketball.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Spoken like a true ignorant, nieve, gay-is-cool, bullying-hurts-my-feelings Generation-Y kid whos never seen Jordan play.

Your generation SUCKS. You guys dont even have an identity, everything you are is based off the past...and you guys dont even do it right, youre a bunch of 80's knockoffs peppered with hints of Liberace.


Don't do em like that Smokey

[KOBE143]

If you don't have Michael Jordan, Kareem or Kobe as your GOAT then you know absolutely nothing about basketball.

this :applause:

[russwest0]

this :applause:

Lol. TBH though Kobe has a much bigger case than people give him credit for. People must forget when he was in his prime, coming off his 4th or 5th ring there was much more of a case for him being GOAT than these weak ass cases people try to make for LeShortcut after winning 2 rings with a ton of help after choking twice

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem is the goat... Scored more than mike, more mvps,same amount of rings,more Allstar appearances,etc

Mike just was marketed better by Nike and the nba

And yet a prime-to-near-prime KAJ was just battered by the 6-10 Moses in the majority of their 40 career H2H games.

Take the time and look up all of the center matchups from the late 70's thru the mid-80's. Moses was CLEARLY the best. He destroyed KAJ, Parish, Gilmore,...you name it. And even a declining Moses was pounding Ewing and Hakeem in the mid-to-late 80's.

And before someone claims that KAJ was a better post-season player...Moses held a 6-1 post-season H2H advantage, and just wiped the floor with Kareem in those H2H's.

The reality was, KAJ would never have won five more rings had it not been for Magic.

If you want to actually put up an argument for a player being greater than MJ...Magic would be it. He never sniffed a losing season. He took a Laker team that had KAJ, Wilkes, Nixon,and others,... teams that were playoff cannon-fodder...and immediately made them a champion. And, furthermore, when KAJ retired, the Lakers IMPROVED from a 57-25 record to a 63-19 record. Hell, Magic carried a rapidly declining Laker team to a Finals in his very last season. The next year, without him, they plummeted to a 43-39 record, and then down to a 39-43 record. Magic's team nearly averaged 60 wins per season in his 12 fulltime seasons. And in those 12 seasons, he went to NINE Finals, and won FIVE rings. And he nearly won EIGHT.

Magic, Russell, and Duncan are the greatest "winners" in NBA history.

[moe94]

Your generation SUCKS. You guys dont even have an identity, everything you are is based off the past...and you guys dont even do it right, youre a bunch of 80's knockoffs peppered with hints of Liberace.

Shouldn't you be on youtube talking about "when you say 2Chains, I say 2pac!"

[diamenz]

Right, Jordan was the face of the league because of a marketing conspiracy. His performances were all a hoax.

Your username is quite befitting of the content of your posts.

I take MJ's will power and heart alone over anyone else's talent in league history.

Then you add the fact he is probably up there as the most talented, skillful player with the greatest intangibles ... Never disappointed like Shaq, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, and never wet the bed in cowardly fashion like LeBron?

Wasn't weak on one side of the ball, on an absolutely loaded roster like Russell. More consistent peak longevity than Hakeem? Wasn't ever the 2nd best player on his championship teams like Kareem? Won more than a talented, selfish loser like Oscar Robertson. Performed like West in the clutch, but actually delivered the hardware.

Transformed an irrelevant basketball franchise into the 3rd best basketball franchise. Didn't beg for help. Didn't leave like a selfish, coward. Remained loyal as long as he could.

Doesn't it make him the obvious choice for GOAT? Not to mention getting hosed out of a few MVPs, and left a couple championship opportunities on the table when he retired the first time in his prime?

Yup, clearly MJ was a product of marketing.

:oldlol:

don't hurt 'em too hard, hammer.

[Marchesk]

Had Wilt been on those Celtics teams, then Russ would be ringless.

I don't know about Russell being ringless, but Wilt would most likely be the GOAT. He wouldn't have put up the same crazy offensive numbers, but Auerback would have maximized his talent in a team setting. Think of Wilt in 67. That's the guy who you put over MJ, if his entire career had played out that way.

[DStebb716]

He's the ultimate GOAT of goats in any sport

He dominated. Always.

Stats through the roof, and even then-

His play transcends stats. He brought style and poise. He not only beat you but he destroyed you.

The ultimate winner

He won't be dethroned until someone else can captivate the world the way he did

Ever heard of Wayne Gretzky? The Great One > His Airness.

[97 bulls]

And yet a prime-to-near-prime KAJ was just battered by the 6-10 Moses in the majority of their 40 career H2H games.

Take the time and look up all of the center matchups from the late 70's thru the mid-80's. Moses was CLEARLY the best. He destroyed KAJ, Parish, Gilmore,...you name it. And even a declining Moses was pounding Ewing and Hakeem in the mid-to-late 80's.

And before someone claims that KAJ was a better post-season player...Moses held a 6-1 post-season H2H advantage, and just wiped the floor with Kareem in those H2H's.

The reality was, KAJ would never have won five more rings had it not been for Magic.

If you want to actually put up an argument for a player being greater than MJ...Magic would be it. He never sniffed a losing season. He took a Laker team that had KAJ, Wilkes, Nixon,and others,... teams that were playoff cannon-fodder...and immediately made them a champion. And, furthermore, when KAJ retired, the Lakers IMPROVED from a 57-25 record to a 63-19 record. Hell, Magic carried a rapidly declining Laker team to a Finals in his very last season. The next year, without him, they plummeted to a 43-39 record, and then down to a 39-43 record. Magic's team nearly averaged 60 wins per season in his 12 fulltime seasons. And in those 12 seasons, he went to NINE Finals, and won FIVE rings. And he nearly won EIGHT.

Magic, Russell, and Duncan are the greatest "winners" in NBA history.
This post isn't very genuine. Magic himself admitted he only wanted to play with Jabaar. Had he been drafted by another team, he said he would've stayed in college. And while he won a lot, he also lost to teams he shouldn't have lost to. Not to mention, the Lakers played in a horrible Conference during the 80s.


And while its true the Bulls won 55 games during Jordans retirement, thats a testament to how great that team was. When Jordan rejoined the team along with Rodman they commenced to having the most dominant three year run of any pro sports franchise. Unlike the others, his teams never lost as the favorite, and even won when they shouldn't.

[NumberSix]

What makes Jordan the best player in my eyes is the fact that he was undefeated in the finals, could have possibly had a 7 or 8 peat if he never retired, plus he was devastating on the offensive AND defensive end. I have never seen Kareem play so i cannot comment on him. But i have seen LeBron, Mike, and Kobe and of that group i believe Jordan is clearly superior.
Media hyperbole has done a really good job of brainwashing the mentally weak.

[atljonesbro]

Spoken like a true ignorant, nieve, gay-is-cool, bullying-hurts-my-feelings Generation-Y kid whos never seen Jordan play.

Your generation SUCKS. You guys dont even have an identity, everything you are is based off the past...and you guys dont even do it right, youre a bunch of 80's knockoffs peppered with hints of Liberace.
Seems like you have low mental fortitude.

[LosScandalous]

We're all just going to have to come into terms that someday LeBron will be the best player whoever lived, the untouchable god, the king. :(

[pauk]

GOATbrook > Jordan

[TyroneNBAFan]

I'm not saying he'll NEVER be surpassed but no one current has a good shot at him.

He had the stats, the big performances, iconic moments, was the most dominant perimeter player ever with no real holes in his game and was the MVP of 6 championship teams.

He was by far the most famous athlete of all time (still is). I mean the dude still making 30-40 mil on endorsements and he's been retired 10-15 years.

He won't be surpassed for another 30-40 years (if ever) IMO.

[97 bulls]

I'm not saying he'll NEVER be surpassed but no one current has a good shot at him.

He had the stats, the big performances, iconic moments, was the most dominant perimeter player ever with no real holes in his game and was the MVP of 6 championship teams.

He was by far the most famous athlete of all time (still is). I mean the dude still making 30-40 mil on endorsements and he's been retired 10-15 years.

He won't be surpassed for another 30-40 years (if ever) IMO.
Exactly. Theres still line's that form early in the morning whenever he releases a new shoe. He transcends basketball.

I mean, how many guys were there that would choose to go bald before he did it? Now its considered sexy

[The Iron Fist]

And yet a prime-to-near-prime KAJ was just battered by the 6-10 Moses in the majority of their 40 career H2H games.

Take the time and look up all of the center matchups from the late 70's thru the mid-80's. Moses was CLEARLY the best. He destroyed KAJ, Parish, Gilmore,...you name it. And even a declining Moses was pounding Ewing and Hakeem in the mid-to-late 80's.

And before someone claims that KAJ was a better post-season player...Moses held a 6-1 post-season H2H advantage, and just wiped the floor with Kareem in those H2H's.

The reality was, KAJ would never have won five more rings had it not been for Magic.

If you want to actually put up an argument for a player being greater than MJ...Magic would be it. He never sniffed a losing season. He took a Laker team that had KAJ, Wilkes, Nixon,and others,... teams that were playoff cannon-fodder...and immediately made them a champion. And, furthermore, when KAJ retired, the Lakers IMPROVED from a 57-25 record to a 63-19 record. Hell, Magic carried a rapidly declining Laker team to a Finals in his very last season. The next year, without him, they plummeted to a 43-39 record, and then down to a 39-43 record. Magic's team nearly averaged 60 wins per season in his 12 fulltime seasons. And in those 12 seasons, he went to NINE Finals, and won FIVE rings. And he nearly won EIGHT.

Magic, Russell, and Duncan are the greatest "winners" in NBA history.


lol, Jordan wouldn't have a single ring without Pippen manning up, without the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons getting old.

When Kareem retired,

Magic won squat, with the same team.

[The Iron Fist]

I'm not saying he'll NEVER be surpassed but no one current has a good shot at him.

He had the stats, the big performances, iconic moments, was the most dominant perimeter player ever with no real holes in his game and was the MVP of 6 championship teams.

He was by far the most famous athlete of all time (still is). I mean the dude still making 30-40 mil on endorsements and he's been retired 10-15 years.

He won't be surpassed for another 30-40 years (if ever) IMO.
:facepalm

[Psileas]

They do, but in fact I don't think Jordan is worshipped because he is seen as a God: Jordan delivered the perfect narrative of the hero who becomes a God, overcoming adversity along the way. The classical God-like figure in the NBA is Wilt, and he's not as revered precisely because he's "just" a God. There's no human connection to be found with him, he was just born superior, and while it's fun to watch him do godly things, it's too removed from people's experiences. Wilt is at his most fascinating when he shows human weakness. Same thing with Shaq. The idea that any middle class kid who was cut from his high school team can become Jordan is what the myth is all about.

Narrative matters when it comes to greatness, because it's something completely subjective; and within narratives the "heroic" narrative is the most successful one in sports. That's where Kareem suffers: essentially he's seen as a tall guy who was really good at shooting a ball through a hoop. Similarly, although LeBron has an interesting narrative (child prodigy humbled by experience before realizing his full potential) there is nothing "heroic" about him.

I like this argument as to why people are connected to Jordan and generally guards more than centers. For some reason, when someone possesses only an average height (in terms of basketball), having extraordinary athletic abilities is somehow not seen as something worth mentioning as a reason for success, while big men are always "penalized" in the conscience of fans if they are bigger, stronger, faster than their peers. I consider this a big injustice, since I consider Jordan to be athletically superior to just about any guard who's ever played and therefore "ahead of his era", as the popular phrase goes. If bigs are to be "penalized" in some way because of their size and physical prowess, so should smalls for practically the same reasons, although I'm against penalizing, since we're talking about reality, not hypothetical scenarios, when Wilt is some unathletic stiff and Jordan a guard with old Nash's athletic abilities.

The GOAT debate will always be subjective since not everyone will ever face everyone, but there are some combinations that make Jordan's case more compelling to most fans, like the combinations of winning titles while winning scoring titles, not losing in the Finals, retiring while being a champion and hitting the GW basket, etc. These aren't his only arguments, but the ones that most of his fans use.
I can see arguments for 5 players (Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Magic), 2 more players got very close to this category (Bird and Shaq) and LeBron, if things run sufficiently smoothly, will eventually enter, like it or not.

[moe94]

:facepalm

Ali, Pele, Maradonna, Jordan

all in the same tier

You're deluded to think otherwise.

[The Iron Fist]

Ali, Pele,

You're deluded to think otherwise.


There you go.

[moe94]

There you go.

Jordan is absolutely on their level. :facepalm

[KungFuJoe]

The GOAT of GOATS.

[The Iron Fist]

Jordan is absolutely on their level. :facepalm

You do realize there are a couple of generations who don't even know Jordan, right?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Ali is not the greatest boxer of all time. Ray Robinson is. In fact it's probably a 50/50 split amongst boxing historians as to whether or not he's even the greatest Heavyweight of all time.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Wayne Gretzky dominated his peers to a greater extent than Jordan and it's not even close. Donald Bradman is another. Messi is arguably more dominant than Jordan ever was.


Yeah Gretzky was the truth. He actually had black people give a damn about hockey when he was playing.

[moe94]

Ali is not the greatest boxer of all time. Ray Robinson is. In fact it's probably a 50/50 split amongst boxing historians as to whether or not he's even the greatest Heavyweight of all time.

Right, but he's clearly the most famous and relevant boxer of all time.


You do realize there are a couple of generations who don't even know Jordan, right?

And there is an entire generation that does not know who Pele is. What point do you have here?

[funnystuff]

Right, Jordan was the face of the league because of a marketing conspiracy. His performances were all a hoax.

Your username is quite befitting of the content of your posts.

I take MJ's will power and heart alone over anyone else's talent in league history.

Then you add the fact he is probably up there as the most talented, skillful player with the greatest intangibles ... Never disappointed like Shaq, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, and never wet the bed in cowardly fashion like LeBron?

Wasn't weak on one side of the ball, on an absolutely loaded roster like Russell. More consistent peak longevity than Hakeem? Wasn't ever the 2nd best player on his championship teams like Kareem? Won more than a talented, selfish loser like Oscar Robertson. Performed like West in the clutch, but actually delivered the hardware.

Transformed an irrelevant basketball franchise into the 3rd best basketball franchise. Didn't beg for help. Didn't leave like a selfish, coward. Remained loyal as long as he could.

Doesn't it make him the obvious choice for GOAT? Not to mention getting hosed out of a few MVPs, and left a couple championship opportunities on the table when he retired the first time in his prime?

Yup, clearly MJ was a product of marketing.

:oldlol:
:roll:

[Rose'sACL]

Right, but he's clearly the most famous and relevant boxer of all time.



And there is an entire generation that does not know who Pele is. What point do you have here?
i have never been to any country where people don't know about pele. I am in india right now and very few people know about jordan.
It is not only about basketball not being popular here because boxing isn't popular either and everyone knows Ali. Same goes for golf but everyone knows about tiger woods.

[Sarcastic]

Babe Ruth >>> Jordan

[moe94]

i have never been to any country where people don't know about pele.

Pele is irrelevant to the generation of kids who grew up watching and idolizing Fatnaldo. The kids who are now witnessing Messi/Ronaldo have no idea who even Maradona was.

[russwest0]

Right, Jordan was the face of the league because of a marketing conspiracy. His performances were all a hoax.

Your username is quite befitting of the content of your posts.

I take MJ's will power and heart alone over anyone else's talent in league history.

Then you add the fact he is probably up there as the most talented, skillful player with the greatest intangibles ... Never disappointed like Shaq, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, and never wet the bed in cowardly fashion like LeBron?

Wasn't weak on one side of the ball, on an absolutely loaded roster like Russell. More consistent peak longevity than Hakeem? Wasn't ever the 2nd best player on his championship teams like Kareem? Won more than a talented, selfish loser like Oscar Robertson. Performed like West in the clutch, but actually delivered the hardware.

Transformed an irrelevant basketball franchise into the 3rd best basketball franchise. Didn't beg for help. Didn't leave like a selfish, coward. Remained loyal as long as he could.

Doesn't it make him the obvious choice for GOAT? Not to mention getting hosed out of a few MVPs, and left a couple championship opportunities on the table when he retired the first time in his prime?

Yup, clearly MJ was a product of marketing.

:oldlol:

God damn this dude just killed him :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[andgar923]

Im an unapologetic MJ stan, everybody knows this.

But Im an MJ stan for a reason.

Most of us aren't as delusional as we're made out to be. We KNOW that some day somebody will come along (hopefully in our lifetime, I really want to see that player) that will just be better.

When that day comes there won't be any argument, there won't be any hype, it will just be accepted.

The issue lies in people forcing the next MJ down our throats. They can't wait to create another MJ. Whenever a great player comes along they want to compare him to MJ regardless of his faults. Cats have yet to play a single game in the league and they're already forcing them down our throats, it's not fair for fans, it's not fair for the game and it's not fair for the players to expect such high standards, it's silly actually.

So when some of these players are hailed so high, when they try to shove them down our throats and fail.... it aint 'us' that are delusional, it's they/ya'll.

Kobe, Bron, and any other player that's been called the next MJ are all GREAT players in their own right. But they come up short when compared to MJ for different reasons. MJ was just MJ.

NO he wasn't perfect.

But he was as close to a perfect player as there's ever been.

Take the best of the best and mold a player and he's the result.

Until then, he's the goal every player is measured to.

[Nevaeh]

Yeah Gretzky was the truth. He actually had black people give a damn about hockey when he was playing.


Yeah, too bad he didn't play against any. http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

Realistically, any player from the past(which Jordan now is) has a chance to be overtaken by somebody new, provided that person is given the right circumstances and are committed to actually topping Jordan's achievements. That's what made Jordan who he was. He wanted to overtake past achievements, but by doing it his way, and not basing it on how he'd be perceived while doing it.

Lebron seems to be carving his own niche by doing it his way as well, and I believe that by moving to the Heat, it was basically his way of declaring his "independence" from what peeps expected him to do, and deciding that moving would be the best way to achieve potential GOAT goals both individually, and team wise.

[Legends66NBA7]

Do people truly believe he's an untouchable lord who will never be surpassed and is Jesus walking on earth?

Yes.

[QUOTE]I'm assuming it's mainly the old geezers who think this, but how could anyone be so na

[Sarcastic]

Someone can come along and surpass Jordan. All they have to do is win 4 in a row, then retire for 2 years, then come back and win 4 in a row again.

[Psileas]

Someone can come along and surpass Jordan. All they have to do is win 4 in a row, then retire for 2 years, then come back and win 4 in a row again.

Not really, Jordan didn't need to get to 2x3 to get called the GOAT by most. He was actually getting such types of accolades by the time he had the first 3. I'll say a dominant force who will be chronologically at least one generation removed from Jordan and his dominance at least comes close to Jordan's will be considered the GOAT by lots of people just by virtue of being much more "modern".

[nashwade]

the next guy who wins more than six will surpass MJ

Kobe, Lebron, Wade come to mind

[Marchesk]

the next guy who wins more than six will surpass MJ

Kobe, Lebron, Wade come to mind

Hondo: 8-0, 2-0 without Russell. He better? No.

Wade and Kobe aren't passing Mike under any scenario.

[aj1987]

If (and it's a damn big if) LeBron wins 7, he'll be considered the GOAT.

[Horde of Temujin]

Wayne Gretzky dominated his peers to a greater extent than Jordan and it's not even close. Donald Bradman is another. Messi is arguably more dominant than Jordan ever was.

The problem is many people on this site and America in general don't acknowledge those as "real sports".

I must admit i didnt know who Donald Bradman was until i looked him up.

[LAZERUSS]

This post isn't very genuine. Magic himself admitted he only wanted to play with Jabaar. Had he been drafted by another team, he said he would've stayed in college. And while he won a lot, he also lost to teams he shouldn't have lost to. Not to mention, the Lakers played in a horrible Conference during the 80s.


And while its true the Bulls won 55 games during Jordans retirement, thats a testament to how great that team was. When Jordan rejoined the team along with Rodman they commenced to having the most dominant three year run of any pro sports franchise. Unlike the others, his teams never lost as the favorite, and even won when they shouldn't.

Exactly. Those that claim that Jordan was god, seem to ignore several facts.

One, Jordan did not win a title until he had the best roster in the NBA...plain-and-simple. That 93-94 Bulls team not only went 55-27 without MJ (and 57-25 the year before with Jordan), they narrowly lost a game seven in the playoffs to the Knicks...a Knick team that would barely lose a game seven in the Finals to the Rockets. Even without MJ they were clearly a title-contending team. And he couldn't lead the '95 Bulls to a lead title, either. Of course, his second "three-peat" roster was even more stacked than his first (Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, and Kukoc.

Two. MJ played on FIVE teams with losing records in his career. Furthermore, as a rookie he improved a Bulls team that had gone 27-55 the year before, to 38-44. Very good, but certainly not "god-like" in comparision to what Bird, KAJ, D-Rob, and Wilt had done with their rosters.

Three. Jordan's teams did not win a title until his seventh season in the league (and again, only after adding players like Pippen, Grant, and Paxson.) Furthermore, they went 1-9 in his first ten playoff games, and in fact, were swept twice. That was certainly not MJ's fault, but then you can make that same claim with almost any other all-time great.

Four. Against Bird's Celtics, MJ's teams were swept twice. And against the "Bad Boys" at their peak, his team's went 1-4 and 2-4, in series in which MJ averaged 27.4 ppg on a .460 FG%, and then 29.7 on a .491 FG%. Both substantially below his regular season numbers. Again, good series, but for those that tend to disparage Wilt's "drop" in the playoffs, Chamberlain battled the Celtic Dynasty, and Russell, EIGHT times in his post-season career.

Five. In MJ's last three Finals, he shot .455, .427, and even .415 from the floor. Sorry, but those are certainly not "god-like" numbers, either. To say that he didn't have help would be ludicris.

He certainly never single-handedly carried teams to a title.

Is MJ the GOAT? Of course he has a strong case. But so do Russell, Magic, Wilt, and even KAJ. However, he was certainly not "untouchable."

[LAZERUSS]

Wayne Gretzky dominated his peers to a greater extent than Jordan and it's not even close. Donald Bradman is another. Messi is arguably more dominant than Jordan ever was.

Last I checked, Gretzky held 63 NHL records. Chamberlain officially holds some 71. However, in actuality, Wilt holds HUNDREDS of NBA records. And many will never be approached, much less broken. In fact, Chamberlain also holds the next best mark in quite a few (and in some case, the next several best.)

For instance...season ppg. 50.4 ppg. Wilt also holds the next three best marks. The 5th best mark... MJ's 37.1 ppg.

FG%. Wilt not only holds the record, with a .727 season, he has the next best mark at .683.

Seasonal rebounding. Wilt with the top-THREE, and SIX of the Top-7.

Rebounding titles. Wilt with 11. Rodman is next with seven.

Single game scoring. Wilt with 100. The next best mark is Kobe at 81...or about a 20% decline. BTW, Wilt has SIX of the entire 10 70+ point games in NBA history, and no other player has more than one. And, Wilt has 32 60+ point games...which is two more than the entire history of the NBA...combined.

"Streak" records. Wilt probably the record for most points scored in HUNDREDS of games. He holds the single game mark of 100. The record for points in two straight games (161); in three (226); in four (293), and in five (351.) He had a streak of nine 50+ point games in a row. He had two separate streak of 14 40+ point games (and he averaged 53 and 54 ppg in each.) He averaged 50 ppg over the course of a full season. He averaged 47.5 ppg over the course of two straight season. He averaged 39.6 ppg over the course of his first seven seasons. And he was still averaging over 34 ppg thru his 11th season.

Same with rebounding. He likely holds "streak" records in the hundreds in that category. And we know that he holds the record for "perfect" games from the field with the three highest games (15-15, 16-16, and 18-18), as well as the record for most made FGAs in a row (35.) Given the fact that he holds the two highest FG% seasons in NBA history, and there is a good chance that he holds streak records that number over a hundred in that category, as well.

No other player, in any major US professional team sport holds anywhere near the records that Wilt does.

[StarJordan]

Do people truly believe he's an untouchable lord who will never be surpassed and is Jesus walking on earth?

IN A WORD, YES.

[atljonesbro]

IN A WORD, YES.
StarJordan

[DStebb716]

Last I checked, Gretzky held 63 NHL records. Chamberlain officially holds some 71. However, in actuality, Wilt holds HUNDREDS of NBA records. And many will never be approached, much less broken. In fact, Chamberlain also holds the next best mark in quite a few (and in some case, the next several best.)

For instance...season ppg. 50.4 ppg. Wilt also holds the next three best marks. The 5th best mark... MJ's 37.1 ppg.

FG%. Wilt not only holds the record, with a .727 season, he has the next best mark at .683.

Seasonal rebounding. Wilt with the top-THREE, and SIX of the Top-7.

Rebounding titles. Wilt with 11. Rodman is next with seven.

Single game scoring. Wilt with 100. The next best mark is Kobe at 81...or about a 20% decline. BTW, Wilt has SIX of the entire 10 70+ point games in NBA history, and no other player has more than one. And, Wilt has 32 60+ point games...which is two more than the entire history of the NBA...combined.

"Streak" records. Wilt probably the record for most points scored in HUNDREDS of games. He holds the single game mark of 100. The record for points in two straight games (161); in three (226); in four (293), and in five (351.) He had a streak of nine 50+ point games in a row. He had two separate streak of 14 40+ point games (and he averaged 53 and 54 ppg in each.) He averaged 50 ppg over the course of a full season. He averaged 47.5 ppg over the course of two straight season. He averaged 39.6 ppg over the course of his first seven seasons. And he was still averaging over 34 ppg thru his 11th season.

Same with rebounding. He likely holds "streak" records in the hundreds in that category. And we know that he holds the record for "perfect" games from the field with the three highest games (15-15, 16-16, and 18-18), as well as the record for most made FGAs in a row (35.) Given the fact that he holds the two highest FG% seasons in NBA history, and there is a good chance that he holds streak records that number over a hundred in that category, as well.

No other player, in any major US professional team sport holds anywhere near the records that Wilt does.

Gretzky and Jordan played their games when the world was watching and the world cared. When the world was competing. Wilt didn't. And there are a ridiculous amount of statistics in basketball. There aren't as many in hockey. Well there are, but not to the basic fan.

[DStebb716]

Spoken like a true ignorant, nieve, gay-is-cool, bullying-hurts-my-feelings Generation-Y kid whos never seen Jordan play.

Your generation SUCKS. You guys dont even have an identity, everything you are is based off the past...and you guys dont even do it right, youre a bunch of 80's knockoffs peppered with hints of Liberace.

I LOVE when people say stupid shit like this. The current generation that is being blamed for everything that's going on isn't even old enough to have a voice in the politics of the world. It's our predecessors who are driving the "sensitive" stuff. They're right for doing so, and our generation, largely, supports what they're doing. But we're irrelevant at the moment. ****ing child.

[LAZERUSS]

Gretzky and Jordan played their games when the world was watching and the world cared. When the world was competing. Wilt didn't. And there are a ridiculous amount of statistics in basketball. There aren't as many in hockey. Well there are, but not to the basic fan.

So Chamberlain's records...all achieved in a career in which he faced centers like Lovellette, Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, Cowens, Hayes, McAdoo, Lanier, Russell, and Kareem...all in the HOF...are meaningless?

BTW, the main basketball statistics are generally considered scoring and rebounding. And Wilt holds the lion's share of the record book in that regard.

[97 bulls]

One, Jordan did not win a title until he had the best roster in the NBA...plain-and-simple.
How many of the players you mention were capable of winning their championships with minimal support? THEY ALL HAD TREMENDOUS TALENT AROUND THEM.



Two. MJ played on FIVE teams with losing records in his career. Furthermore, as a rookie he improved a Bulls team that had gone 27-55 the year before, to 38-44. Very good, but certainly not "god-like"
He also took what was a 55 win team in 94 (just replace Rodman for Grant) and led them to the best record ever, second best record ever, and 62 wins with his number two guy missing half the season. Thats a roughly a 20 win improvement. Along with winning the title.




Three. Jordan's teams did not win a title until his seventh season in the league (and again, only after adding players like Pippen, Grant, and Paxson.) Furthermore, they went 1-9 in his first ten playoff games, and in fact, were swept twice. That was certainly not MJ's fault, but then you can make that same claim with almost any other all-time great.
That's not an indictment of Jordan. Unlike the players you mentioned, he didn't have the talent around him.





Four. Against Bird's Celtics, MJ's teams were swept twice. And against the "Bad Boys" at their peak, his team's went 1-4 and 2-4, in series in which MJ averaged 27.4 ppg on a .460 FG%, and then 29.7 on a .491 FG%. Both substantially below his regular season numbers. Again, good series, but for those that tend to disparage Wilt's "drop" in the playoffs, Chamberlain battled the Celtic Dynasty, and Russell, EIGHT times in his post-season career.*
Chamberlain's numbers dropped ACROSS THE BOARD. Not just a few series. Jordan's playoff stats and resume more than speak for themselves.


Jordan is the greatest ever because hes the best combination of all the determining factors. You can't say about any other player. They fall short somehow. And he has no weakness in his game.

[moe94]

No other player, in any major US professional team sport holds anywhere near the records that Wilt does.

Gretzky literally has more than 1000 points than the next highest all time. If you cannot appreciate that, what more is there to tell you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wayne_Gretzky

His records go forever.

[LAZERUSS]

Gretzky literally has more than 1000 points than the next highest all time. If you cannot appreciate that, what more is there to tell you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wayne_Gretzky

His records go forever.

Wilt holds HUNDREDS (if not THOUSANDS) of NBA records, and many by HUGE margins (and in many cases he holds the next best mark(s), as well.)

His records go on forever...

[moe94]

His records go on forever...

Gretkzy has playoff records, too.

And playoff accolades that will never be replicated.

What's the word on the boy Wilt? :coleman:

[Psileas]

Chamberlain's numbers dropped ACROSS THE BOARD. Not just a few series. Jordan's playoff stats and resume more than speak for themselves.


Jordan is the greatest ever because hes the best combination of all the determining factors. You can't say about any other player. They fall short somehow. And he has no weakness in his game.

Chamberlain, apart from 1970, when he missed almost the whole regular season, played in 26 playoff series and in 13 of them (=50%), he averaged more ppg against these respective teams than compared to the regular season series - and I'm pretty confident he performed at least as well in other fields as well. Which goes to show how overblown catch phrases like "Wilt's numbers dropped across the board" are. He was a legit playoff performer who had to face the most elite defenders of the game more frequently than any other player in the history of the NBA had. People conveniently ignore this and pretend that the playoffs in general were some kind of kryptonite for Wilt.
I've asked this again and nobody could answer: If you consider Kareem to be a significantly (if at all) better playoff performer than Wilt, where was his equal to regular season playoff dominance in 1971, when he had to face the game's best defenders in the playoffs? Where was it in 1972 when he had to do the same thing? Where was it in 1973? Oh, yes, it was there in 1974 and, not coincidentally at all, not against Wilt or Thurmond.

You're not going to tell me or whoever else what we have to consider determining factors for the GOAT. If I want someone whose mind is only set on his team winning, I'm taking Russell, not Jordan. If I want someone to dominate the paint, I'm taking Wilt or Kareem or Shaq. If I want the perfect player to blend with a team and Russell isn't available, I'm taking Magic or Bird, not Jordan.
Having no weaknesses is not a really big deal when we're talking about great swingmen. Havlicek had no weaknesses, West had no weaknesses, Oscar had no weaknesses, Kobe has no weaknesses, Grant Hill had few, Pippen had few, etc.

[LAZERUSS]

Gretkzy has playoff records, too.

And playoff accolades that will never be replicated.

What's the word on the boy Wilt? :coleman:


Chamberlain was the best player on floor in 90% of his playoff series, and he outplayed his opposing centers, in the vast majority of his 160 post-season games, which included 105 against a HOF starting center, and another 26 against a multiple All-Star. He also holds many playoff rebounding records, and surely would own playoff shot-blocking records, had they been officially kept.

[aj1987]

Chamberlain was the best player on floor in 90% of his playoff series, and he outplayed his opposing centers, in the vast majority of his 160 post-season games, which included 105 against a HOF starting center, and another 26 against a multiple All-Star. He also holds many playoff rebounding records, and surely would own playoff shot-blocking records, had they been officially kept.
Nope. He wasn't.

[Ken_Masters]

If (and it's a damn big if) LeBron wins 7, he'll be considered the GOAT.

LeBron winning 7 still doesn't make him the GOAT in my opinion. After seeing both guys in their primes, Jordan is a better overall player than James.

[LAZERUSS]

Gretkzy has playoff records, too.

And playoff accolades that will never be replicated.

What's the word on the boy Wilt? :coleman:

How is this for playoff domination?

In his first seven post-seasons, covering 67 playoff games, Chamberlain AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, probably 8+ bpg, and shot .515 from the field in an NBA that shot an eFG% of about .426 in that span.

Now, give me a list of players that have had ONE playoff GAME in which they scored 30 points, grabbed 27 rebounds, handed out 5 assists, blocked 8 shots, and shot 9% over the league average from the field.

BTW, in those 67 games, Chamberlain battled Russell, who is considered the greatest defensive player in NBA history, 35 times, and Thurmond, who might well have been the greatest one-on-one defensive center in NBA history, another six games. So, in nearly two-thirds of Wilt's "peak" years, he was facing two of the three greatest defensive centers in NBA history (obviously Wilt was the other one.)

Not only that, but in those 67 games, Chamberlain outscored his opposing starting center in 64 of those 67 games. And many by HUGE margins. He had post-season games against Kerr (multiple All-Star) in which he outscored him by a 53-7 margin. He had a 46-15 margin over the 7-3 Swede Halbrook. He had post-season games against Russell (HOFer) in which he outscored him by a 42-9 margin. He had playoff games against Beaty (multiple All-Star) in which he outscored him by a 50-6 margin. He had a post-season game against Embry (multiple All-Star) in which he outscored him, 38-7.

He put up games on Russell of 50, 46, 42, 42, and 41 points. He put up playoff games against Kerr (multiple All-Star) of 53 and 50. He put up a playoff game of 46 on Halbrook. He hung playoff games of 50 and 39 on Beaty. Playoff games of 41 and 37 against Dierking. (Incidently, in the first round of the '68 playoffs, Chamberlain hung a 37 point game on Bellamy.)

Furthermore, he was dramatically reducing the FG%'s of his opposing centers, as well. He held Kerr to a post-season FG%'s of .294 and .376. Russell to post-season FG%'s of .399, .386, and .358. Thurmond to a .343 FG%. Embry to a .438. (BTW, in the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, Wilt held Bellamy to a .421 FG%...in a season in which Bellamy shot .545.)

He crushed his opposing centers on the glass. In those peak years, he outrebounded Russell in all six of their playoff H2H series, and some by margins of 30-25, 31-25, and even 32-23 rpg. He outrebounded Embry by a 20-6 margin in the '65 playoffs. He outrebounded Dierking by a 27-13 margin in the '67 playoffs. He outrebounded Kerr by margins of 23-8 and 26-16.

In perhaps his greatest post-season (albeit, certainly not his best scoring post-season), Chamberlain had a playoff series against Dierking in which he averaged 28 ppg, 27 rpg, 11 apg, and shot .612 from the field. Then he outscored Russell, per game, 22-10; outassisted Russell, per game, 10-6; outrebounded Russell, per game, 32-23; and outshot Russell from the field, .556 to .358. In the Finals, and against Thurmond (in Nate's greatest season), Chamberlain outscored Thurmond, per game, 18-14; outrebounded him, per game, 29-27; outassisted him, per game, 7-4; and outshot him from the floor by a .560 to .343 margin. And in those six games, Wilt outscored Nate in five; outrebounded Nate in five; outassisted Nate in five; and outshot him in all six.

Chamberlain, at his peak, simply overwhelmed the NBA in his post-season play. And, keep in mind that Chamberlain's team was so bad in his 62-63 season, that they did not make the playoffs...in a season in which Wilt averaged 45 ppg and shot .528 from the field (and LED the NBA in FIFTEEN statistical categories. Oh, and he outscored Russell, in their nine regular season H2H's by a 38-14 margin.)

[funnystuff]

6-15 is not considered unbeaten in the finals.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The playoff records are dominated by Jordan, Magic, and Russell. Finals records dominated by West and Russell.

[Myth]

Shaq didn't have a chance? Imagine Lakers stay healthy in 03 and 04. They were an in-and-out away from a game 7 vs San Antonio and imo healthy Kobe would've put them over the top. In 04 Shaq and Kobe both suffered nagging injuries, Kobe had the rape case and Malone was injured in the Finals...Potential 5 (!) peat with 3-4 FMVP's...by 03 Kobe was good enough to snag one himself imo. Then he wins another one with Miami...He definitely had his chances.

I wasn't trying to deny that Shaq had a chance. I just didn't use him as an example because I thought more people would have argued against him for not having a complete game. You bringing up Shaq actually just further supports the point I was trying to make that Jordan will be surpassed.

[97 bulls]

You're not going to tell me or whoever else what we have to consider determining factors for the GOAT. If I want someone whose mind is only set on his team winning, I'm taking Russell, not Jordan. If I want someone to dominate the paint, I'm taking Wilt or Kareem or Shaq. If I want the perfect player to blend with a team and Russell isn't available, I'm taking Magic or Bird, not Jordan.Having no weaknesses is not a really big deal when we're talking about great swingmen. Havlicek had no weaknesses, West had no weaknesses, Oscar had no weaknesses, Kobe has no weaknesses, Grant Hill had few, Pippen had few, etc.******Yesterday, 05:03 PM
But theres only one player with a combination of all those things and thats Michael Jeffrey Jordan. Havlicek won a lot, but is his name splashed across the record books like Jordans and Wilts? No. West never won at the level Jordan did.

Jordan is the greatest because he's the best combination of every aspect of basketball. Wins, stats, records, championships, domiance, overall game on the floor. Michael Jordan must be in the conversation. You can't say that about any other player.

[Knoe Itawl]

But theres only one player with a combination of all those things and thats Michael Jeffrey Jordan. Havlicek won a lot, but is his name splashed across the record books like Jordans and Wilts? No. West never won at the level Jordan did.

Jordan is the greatest because he's the best combination of every aspect of basketball. Wins, stats, records, championships, dominance, overall game on the floor. Michael Jordan must be in the conversation. You can't say that about any other player.

Exactly. All these anti Jordan guys always talk around this, or offer up excuses or whatever. The only one who comes close to that package is KAJ. However, not all of his winning came as the best player on the team.

[fpliii]

You're not going to tell me or whoever else what we have to consider determining factors for the GOAT. If I want someone whose mind is only set on his team winning, I'm taking Russell, not Jordan. If I want someone to dominate the paint, I'm taking Wilt or Kareem or Shaq. If I want the perfect player to blend with a team and Russell isn't available, I'm taking Magic or Bird, not Jordan.
Having no weaknesses is not a really big deal when we're talking about great swingmen. Havlicek had no weaknesses, West had no weaknesses, Oscar had no weaknesses, Kobe has no weaknesses, Grant Hill had few, Pippen had few, etc.

:applause: #truth

[97 bulls]

Even when comparing Jordan to Wayne Gretzky. Jordan played and dominated both sides of the ball. Gretzky was soft and at best was a mediocre defender.

[moe94]

Even when comparing Jordan to Wayne Gretzky. Jordan played and dominated both sides of the ball. Gretzky was soft and at best was a mediocre defender.

In terms of sheer domination of peers, Gretzky > Jordan and it's not even close, not statistically and not accolades or records.

I couldn't even care less about hockey, either.

[97 bulls]

In terms of sheer domination of peers, Gretzky > Jordan and it's not even close, not statistically and not accolades or records.

I couldn't even care less about hockey, either.
I never said he didn't, statistically, but Jordan was dominant on both sides of the ball. Not just one side.

And how dominant could Gretzky have been? The Oilers won a championship soon after trading him to the Kings.

Not to mention how many more records would Jordan have had he not retiredin the middle of his prime? And after 98? Its clear he would've put many stats wayyyyyy out of commission with 18 years under his belt. He was still a damn good player in 02.

And to add to that, Jordan won more.

[Psileas]

But theres only one player with a combination of all those things and thats Michael Jeffrey Jordan. Havlicek won a lot, but is his name splashed across the record books like Jordans and Wilts? No. West never won at the level Jordan did.

Jordan is the greatest because he's the best combination of every aspect of basketball. Wins, stats, records, championships, domiance, overall game on the floor. Michael Jordan must be in the conversation. You can't say that about any other player.

Combination of all these things? I've never seen Jordan dominate the paint like a big man (and I'm not talking about occasional blocked shots and rebounds), and that's a term I've already mentioned.
True, Havlicek isn't a GOAT candidate, but this is a reply to the notion that Jordan had no weaknesses, as if he was the only one who didn't. I mentioned others who also didn't have weaknesses and most of them aren't GOAT candidates, "just" consistent all-stars.
I sure can say that about some other player, because you make the mistake of assuming that the best combination has to be something that looks like the most "all-around" package, whereas some of these fields may not hold as much value for some, and a player somewhat lacking in them but making up for this lack in another field that's considered more important may make this player's case stronger, even if he looks like a less "well-rounded" case. What if I value winning a bit more than individual stats or put as much emphasis on stats like rebounding or assists or defensive stats as in scoring? What if I value defense more than offense? Under these circumstances, why should I not pick Russell?
Who the heck has ever compiled a list of what the best combinations ought to be and who the players who own these combinations are?

[moe94]

And how dominant could Gretzky have been? The Oilers won a championship soon after trading him to the Kings..

Do you really want to use this argument in favor of Jordan? :coleman:

Think about what you said. Bulls were within another ECF, without Jordan the very next year.

[97 bulls]

Do you really want to use this argument in favor of Jordan? :coleman:

Think about what you said. Bulls were within another ECF, without Jordan the very next year.
Lol. The Oilers Won a championship without Gretzky bro. Again WON a championship. The Bulls were contenders. Theres a tremendous difference

[miles berg]

Honestly I don't see it happening anytime soon. He won 6 in a row with a guaranteed 2 that he left on the table during the middle of those 6 to go play baseball. He won those, they changed supporting casts for each set of 3 and they still won all 6.

Without a doubt the best player I've ever seen play. Untouchable offensively, elite defensively, and the will of a cold blooded assassin.

No one comes close.

[LAZERUSS]

I have often wondered how come this god was swept by the Celtics twice in the post-season. How come he couldn't carry those teams to a title?

In fact, wth was he doing in the first six years of his career anyway?

And what happened in '95? He must have been injured right?

Looks like he didn't give a snot for over half of his career. In fact, there were five seasons in his career in which he decided to completely forget about winning altogether.

[fpliii]

Honestly I don't see it happening anytime soon. He won 6 in a row with a guaranteed 2 that he left on the table during the middle of those 6 to go play baseball. He won those, they changed supporting casts for each set of 3 and they still won all 6.

Without a doubt the best player I've ever seen play. Untouchable offensively, elite defensively, and the will of a cold blooded assassin.

No one comes close.

:facepalm

[AceManIII]

Bet half of the posters in this thread, including the OP, wear Jordans :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

I have often wondered how come this god was swept by the Celtics twice in the post-season. How come he couldn't carry those teams to a title?

In fact, wth was he doing in the first six years of his career anyway?

And what happened in '95? He must have been injured right?

Looks like he didn't give a snot for over half of his career. In fact, there were five seasons in his career in which he decided to completely forget about winning altogether.
Jordan 6
Wilt 2

Will you ever learn?

[LAZERUSS]

Jordan 6
Wilt 2

Will you ever learn?

What the hell was he doing in his other nine seasons?

Same with Russell in '67? How could he allow his team, and himself, to be so humiliated by a "loser?"

Bird in ten of his.

Kobe in 11 of his.

West in 12 of his.

Duncan in 13 of his.

KAJ in 14 of his.

Shaq in 15 of his.

Hakeem in 16 of his.

Moses in 18 of his.

Bunch of losers....

[Deuce Bigalow]

What the hell was he doing in his other nine seasons?

Same with Russell in '67? How could he allow his team, and himself, to be so humiliated by a "loser?"

Bird in ten of his.

Kobe in 11 of his.

West in 12 of his.

Duncan in 13 of his.

KAJ in 14 of his.

Shaq in 15 of his.

Hakeem in 16 of his.

Moses in 18 of his.

Bunch of losers....
How mad are you that Wilt only has 2? Hakeem the "loser" you like to call him, has as much as Wilt. How mad does that make you? Needs to type parables to convince people Wilt was great...:oldlol:

[moe94]

How mad are you that Wilt only has 2? Hakeem the "loser" you like to call him, has as much as Wilt. How mad does that make you? Needs to type parables to convince people Wilt was great...:oldlol:
dat ether

[LAZERUSS]

How mad are you that Wilt only has 2? Hakeem the "loser" you like to call him, has as much as Wilt. How mad does that make you? Needs to type parables to convince people Wilt was great...:oldlol:

Same with Kobe. Hondo went 8-0 in his Finals, 2-0 as the main man, and was probably Boston's best player in two more. Yet there are those that seem to think that Kobe, who only won two as the main man (and needed Gasol to step up big in one Finals, and Peace saved his ass in game seven of the other), and personally lost the '04 Finals on his own...was greater than Havlicek.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Same with Kobe. Hondo went 8-0 in his Finals, 2-0 as the main man, and was probably Boston's best player in two more. Yet there are those that seem to think that Kobe, who only won two as the main man (and needed Gasol to step up big in one Finals, and Peace saved his ass in game seven of the other), and personally lost the '04 Finals on his own...was greater than Havlicek.
Needs to resort to this to deflect :applause:

Forgive Kob for needing help from the great Pau Gasol and Metta World War. While Wilt riding West's coattails when Jerry averaged 38 ppg in the NBA Finals and still lost after being handed a 2-0 and 3-2 lead with HCA.

[LAZERUSS]

Needs to resort to this to deflect :applause:

Not a deflect at all.

Basketball is a TEAM game. If you honestly believe that single players win and lose titles, then do you rank Hondo ahead of Kobe?

[moe94]

Laz, how come you never get upset after no one replies to your essays or dismisses your well thought out posts?

[LAZERUSS]

Laz, how come you never get upset after no one replies to your essays or dismisses your well thought out posts?

My favorite one's are those that reply..."Didn't read...too long"...and then comment on a portion of my post...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not a deflect at all.

Basketball is a TEAM game. If you honestly believe that single players win and lose titles, then do you rank Hondo ahead of Kobe?
You don't compare rings to uncomparable players. Hakeem and Wilt = comparable. Kobe and Havlicek = not comparable.

Also not all rings are comparable. Kareem's last 2 rings are not the same as his first 4, or Kobe's first ring is not the same as his last 4.

[LAZERUSS]

You don't compare rings to uncomparable players. Hakeem and Wilt = comparable. Kobe and Havlicek = not comparable.

How many records does Hakeem own? How many MVPs? How many 60+ win teams? How many Finals?

As for Kobe and Hondo...certainly not comparable when it comes to winning.

[moe94]

How many records does Hakeem own? How many MVPs? How many 60+ win teams? How many Finals?


Are you implying Hakeem is not comparable to Wilt? :biggums:

Both were, at one point, the absolute best C in the league and MVPs of the league. That's enough. They're absolutely comparable, regardless of how much you want to dismiss Dream.

[LAZERUSS]

Are you implying Hakeem is not comparable to Wilt? :biggums:

Both were, at one point, the absolute best C in the league and MVPs of the league. That's enough. They're absolutely comparable, regardless of how much you want to dismiss Dream.

Chamberlain was the best center in the NBA in the entire decade of the 60's. And he was still the second best center in the league in the early 70's.

How many MVPs did Hakeem have again? How about Top-2's? How about Top-4's?

And how many times was he considered the best player in the league?

How many First-Team All-NBA selections did Hakeem have again?

And how many records does Hakeem hold again?

[Deuce Bigalow]

How many records does Hakeem own? How many MVPs? How many 60+ win teams? How many Finals?

As for Kobe and Hondo...certainly not comparable when it comes to winning.
Hakeem won a championship with no all-stars on his team while being the leader in points, rebounds, assists, and blocks, also was the leading playoff scorer. And he won another championship while leading the playoffs in scoring again.

Playoff scoring titles- Hakeem 3, Wilt 1 (7 in the regular season...)

Hakeem has more playoff points and 30-point games in the playoffs. Wilt never led a championship team in scoring, Hakeem did twice.

Hakeem won an MVP and won as many championships as Wilt, who cares if he didn't win 60 games. Hakeem was the much better playoff scorer over Wilt, and Hakeem's defense is known as one of the greatest so Wilt's advantage on defense is not that much greater.

Also, All-NBA First teams- Hakeem 6, Wilt 7.

MVPs are not voted by the players anymore, but Hakeem was considered the best player in the L in 94 & 95 after the playoffs ended.

[moe94]

How many MVPs did Hakeem have again? How about Top-2's? How about Top-4's? ?

Steve Nash has as many MVPs as:

Shaq
Kobe
Wade
Baylor
West
Stockton
Isiah
Durant
Paul
McHale
Ewing
Barry

COMBINED.

Your use of MVPs to validate a silly agenda is tiresome and quite frankly disrespectful.

It's cool how you conveniently don't mention any defensive accolades or statistics, either.

You like stats? What about them quad dub games, though?

What season did Wilt win DPotY and MVP again? :coleman:

[LAZERUSS]

Hakeem won a championship with no all-stars on his team while being the leader in points, rebounds, assists, and blocks, also was the leading playoff scorer. And he won another championship while leading the playoffs in scoring again.

Playoff scoring titles- Hakeem 3, Wilt 1 (7 in the regular season...)

Hakeem has more playoff points and 30-point games in the playoffs. Wilt never led a championship team in scoring, Hakeem did twice.

Hakeem won an MVP and won as many championships as Wilt, who cares if he didn't win 60 games. Hakeem was the much better playoff scorer over Wilt, and Hakeem's defense is known as one of the greatest so Wilt's advantage on defense is not that much greater.


You and scoring...

How many times did Hakeem average 30 ppg in his 15 post-seasons? How many 37+ ppg playoff series? How many 50+ point games? How many 45 point Finals games?

Regarding his '94 title run...give me a list of the centers he faced in his four series. And how come his 58-24 barely beat a worse 56-26 Knicks team in the Finals. And how come he was only the 4th leading rebounder in the Finals that season?

Regarding his '95 Finals? How come he couldn't even shoot the post-season league average in FG% or TS%? How come he could barely outscore Shaq, and needed ten FGAs more per game to do so? How come he was outrebounded, outassisted, and even outblocked by Shaq? How come he couldn't guard Shaq one-on-one in that series? How come he needed his teammates to collectively shoot a TS% of .589 in that series, while he could only contribute a .514? And how could he allow a young Shaq to outshoot him by a .595 to .483 margin?

How many times was Wilt outrebounded in his six Finals? How many times was Wilt outshot from the floor in his six Finals? How about Hakeem in his three? How many times did Hakeem shoot .501 or above in his three Finals? What is Hakeem's Finals FG% and what was Wilt's? What was Wilt's opposing centers shooting in their Finals against him, and how many of them shot .595?

How many times did Chamberlain's teams lose in the FIRST ROUND?



then how about this...

Did Hakeem ever lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and FG% at the same time, and take his team to the best record in the league?

Did Hakeek ever win an assist title?

Did Hakeem ever lead the league in scoring, and did he do it seven times?

Did Hakeem win 11 rebounding titles?

Did Hakeem ever win a FG% title, much less NINE of them?

Did Hakeem ever lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and FG%...at the same time...much less THREE times?

Did Hakeem ever lead the league in scoring and rebounding even once, much less FIVE times?

Did Hakeem ever lead the NBA in scoring and FG% even once...much less FOUR times?

Did Hakeem ever lead the league in FIFTEEN statistical categories? Or 10 MULTIPLE times?

What was Hakeem's highest PER?

How many NBA records, including post-season records, does Hakeem hold?

Yep...equal centers alright...

[LAZERUSS]

Steve Nash has as many MVPs as:

Shaq
Kobe
Wade
Baylor
West
Stockton
Isiah
Durant
Paul
McHale
Ewing
Barry

COMBINED.

Your use of MVPs to validate a silly agenda is tiresome and quite frankly disrespectful.

It's cool how you conveniently don't mention any defensive accolades or statistics, either.

You like stats? What about them quad dub games, though?

What season did Wilt win DPotY and MVP again? :coleman:


Talk about a silly agenda...

How many DPOY's were awarded in the 60's?

How many First and Second Team All-Defensive teams were awarded in the 60's? (BTW, Chamberlain was first-team all-defense in his LAST TWO seasons.)

How about comparing defensive Win-Shares? Chamberlain has the two highest "non-Russell" seasons in NBA history.

How about comparing a prime KAJ's career FG% against a way-past-his-prime Chamberlain in their 28 career H2H's, with the 23 career H2H's that a 38-41 year old KAJ put up against a 23-26 year old Hakeem? (BTW, Kareem shot .464 against Wilt, and .607 against Hakeem.)

QUAD-DOUBLES??????


Hakeem has ONE. Chamberlain had a documented one in the '67 EDF's and against Russell, no less (24-32-13-12)

BUT, blocks and steals weren't officially recorded in Wilt's era. Having said that, though, Chamberlain had a known 78 triple-doubles...none of which included blocked shots. Do you honestly believe that he didn't have multiple games out of those 78 that would have been quad's had blocks been recorded. And, as a sidenote, Chamberlain blocked a KNOWN 23 shots in a Christmas day game in 1968.

Oh, and how many Triple-Doubles did Hakeem have again? How about a RECORDED 20-20-20 triple double game? (as a sidenote, Wilt reportedly blocked 20 shots in a game against Bellamy in which he scored 34 points with 33 rebounds, as well.) And how about a 53-32-14 triple double (in which Wilt may have had double-digit blocks and steals...for a quin-double.)

I could go on...but neither of us have that kind of time...

[Deuce Bigalow]

You and scoring...

How many times did Hakeem average 30 ppg in his 15 post-seasons? How many 37+ ppg playoff series? How many 50+ point games? How many 45 point Finals games?

Regarding his '94 title run...give me a list of the centers he faced in his four series. And how come his 58-24 barely beat a worse 56-26 Knicks team in the Finals. And how come he was only the 4th leading rebounder in the Finals that season?

Regarding his '95 Finals? How come he couldn't even shoot the post-season league average in FG% or TS%? How come he could barely outscore Shaq, and needed ten FGAs more per game to do so? How come he was outrebounded, outassisted, and even outblocked by Shaq? How come he couldn't guard Shaq one-on-one in that series? How come he needed his teammates to collectively shoot a TS% of .589 in that series, while he could only contribute a .514? And how could he allow a young Shaq to outshoot him by a .595 to .483 margin?

How many times was Wilt outrebounded in his six Finals? How many times was Wilt outshot from the floor in his six Finals? How about Hakeem in his three? How many times did Hakeem shoot .501 or above in his three Finals? What is Hakeem's Finals FG% and what was Wilt's? What was Wilt's opposing centers shooting in their Finals against him, and how many of them shot .595?

How many times did Chamberlain's teams lose in the FIRST ROUND?



then how about this...

Did Hakeem ever lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and FG% at the same time, and take his team to the best record in the league?

Did Hakeek ever win an assist title?

Did Hakeem ever lead the league in scoring, and did he do it seven times?

Did Hakeem win 11 rebounding titles?

Did Hakeem ever win a FG% title, much less NINE of them?

Did Hakeem ever lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and FG%...at the same time...much less THREE times?

Did Hakeem ever lead the league in scoring and rebounding even once, much less FIVE times?

Did Hakeem ever lead the NBA in scoring and FG% even once...much less FOUR times?

Did Hakeem ever lead the league in FIFTEEN statistical categories? Or 10 MULTIPLE times?

What was Hakeem's highest PER?

How many NBA records, including post-season records, does Hakeem hold?

Yep...equal centers alright...
Hakeem is the better scorer in the playoffs and it isn't even close. A few more outburst of 40 and 50 with 30 more possessions available on average isn't better than more total playoff points, more 30 point playoff games, a MUCH higher playoff ppg and a MUCH higher Finals ppg.

In the playoffs Hakeem won as many rings as Wilt. Won more playoff scoring titles than Wilt. Led the playoffs in rebounding multiple times. Was the leading scorer on a CHAMPIONSHIP team.

In the regular season, Hakeem won a MVP and made 6 All-NBA First teams. Wilt obviously has the edge in regular season accomplishments because he was Mr. Regular season.

Let's not act like Wilt didn't have his failures. He led a team to a 31-49 record in his prime while PLAYING ALL 80 GAMES. Hakeem missed a postseason where he missed 10+ games and they nearly lost every one of those games causing his team to miss a postseason. Wilt also led a team to a 10-28 record then was traded to a playoff team. In one postseason, Wilt got swept in the first round by a sub .500 team that Wilt had HCA over.

To sum it up...Both won 2 rings, Wilt was better in the regular season, Hakeem was better in the playoffs and Finals. Comparable players for sure.

[Roc Nation]

No. LeBron is the greatest player ever

[D-Wade316]

Bill Russell > Michael Jordan

[LAZERUSS]

Hakeem is the better scorer in the playoffs and it isn't even close. A few more outburst of 40 and 50 with 30 more possessions available on average isn't better than more total playoff points, more 30 point playoff games, a MUCH higher playoff ppg and a MUCH higher Finals ppg.

In the playoffs Hakeem won as many rings as Wilt. Won more playoff scoring titles than Wilt. Led the playoffs in rebounding multiple times. Was the leading scorer on a CHAMPIONSHIP team.

In the regular season, Hakeem won a MVP and made 6 All-NBA First teams. Wilt obviously has the edge in regular season accomplishments because he was Mr. Regular season.

Let's not act like Wilt didn't have his failures. He led a team to a 31-49 record in his prime while PLAYING ALL 80 GAMES. Hakeem missed a postseason where he missed 10+ games and they nearly lost every one of those games causing his team to miss a postseason. Wilt also led a team to a 10-28 record then was traded to a playoff team. In one postseason, Wilt got swept in the first round by a sub .500 team that Wilt had HCA over.

To sum it up...Both won 2 rings, Wilt was better in the regular season, Hakeem was better in the playoffs and Finals. Comparable players for sure.

Much higher scoring in the post-season? Hakeem averaged 25.9 ppg on 19.6 FGAs in his playoff career. Chamberlain averaged 22.5 ppg on 17.1 FGAs. In his highest scoring Finals, Hakeem averaged 32.8 ppg on 29 FGAs (and shot an eFG% of .487 in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .504.) In Wilt's highest scoring Finals, he averaged 29.2 ppg on 24 FGAs, (and shot .517 in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .420.) Had Wilt taken 29 FGAs in that Finals, and his scoring numbers jump to 34.5 ppg (and BTW, it was against Russell.) And adjust his eFG% of .517 to Hakeem's '95 levels, and it would have been at an eye-popping .620...which would have raised his Finals ppg average to about 36 ppg that year.

And speaking of post-season scoring, Hakeem's teams were blown out EIGHT times in the first round in his 15 post-seasons.

Had Wilt had the "good fortune" to have lost in the first round EIGHT times in his post-season career (and not faced Russell and the greatest Dynasty EIGHT times in the second round or later)...how about these numbers...


And, had he had the good "fortune" to have been eliminated in the first round of the playoffs, EIGHT times, as was the case with Hakeem, his first round numbers were often HIGHER. And, I have read an idiot post claiming that Hakeem outshot Wilt from the field in the post-season (by a .528 to .522 margin), BUT, I will be comparing their post-season LEAGUE AVERAGES, (and even including eFG%'s), which CLEARLY gives Chamberlain a HUGE edge.

As examples, in Wilt's fist eight post-seasons, and in his first round, he averaged

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg and on .559 shooting (in a post-season NBA of 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting)

27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg, on .555 shooting, and against Russell)

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (and a great example of FG% at .612 in a post-season at .424)

25.5 ppg (and on .584 shooting, while his opposing center, Bellamy was at 20.0 on .421 shooting.)

Even in his 11th season, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, Chamberlain put up a first round of 23.7 ppg., 20.3 rpg, and .549.

And, in his 71-72 post-season, he had a 14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .629 first round series (and in an NBA post-season of .446.)

So while Chamberlain was shooting .522 in his post-season career, it came in post-seasons of between .402 to .455.) Meanwhile Hakeem's .528 came in post-seasons of as high as .492, and an efg% as high as .500. MANY in the .485+ range, as well.

And, keep in mind two more interesting points. One, in Wilt's second greatest scoring season (44.8 ppg on .528 shooting) his all-time worst roster kept him from playing in the post-season (which probably cost him another 2-3+ ppg in his post-seasob career average.) And two, he faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11.

Ok, and regarding that 31-49 team. It was so bad that they had 16 different players that season. How bad was it? The very next season the Warriors new coach held a scrimmage with that roster, sans Wilt, and against some rookies and scrubs. He was shocked when the veterans lost the game. Oh, and Chamberlain then single-handedly carried that same putrid roster to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals, where Russell and his SEVEN HOF-teammates beat Wilt's rag-tag team, 4-1 (and had to win the last two games in the waning seconds.) In yet another H2H series in which Chamberlain just shredded Russell in every category.

And Wilt was traded at mid-season the very next season, to a Sixer team that had gone 34-46 the year before, and failed to make the playoffs. He then single-handedly took that bottom-feeding team past a loaded Royals team in the first round, and then to a game seven, one point loss against a HOF-laden Celtic team that had gone 62-18. Oh, and all Wilt did in that series was put up a 30 ppg, 31 rpg, .555 series in the process (in a post-season NBA that shot .429 BTW.)

Hakeem was nowhere near the rebounder Wilt was in the post-season, either. In fact, Hakeem was not only outrebounded by opposing centers in two of his three Finals, he was even outrebounded by a teammate in one. Furthermore, he had post-seasons where a teammate was outrebounding him by over four per game. Even using TRB% ( a stat that does not show pure domination), his rebounding rates were miles behind Chamberlain's.

And, find me a post-season in which Wilt's teammates had an eFG% over the league average (and better than him.) Or teammates putting up a .595 TS% in a Finals.

Then, find me post-seasons in which Hakeem's teammates collectively shot these numbers...


'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field. Lose gaeme seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of Finals.

Amazingly, Wilt led two teams to titles in seasons in which his teammates collectively shot .428 and .414. Even adjusting for Hakeem's era, those would still be well behind the league average.

BTW, you always bring up West, yet Hakeem couldn't get Barkley and Pippen to a Finals. And he couldn't get Barkley and Drexler to one, either.

Furthermore, he won one title in a year in which MJ took off, and the Bulls still went 55-27 without him, and barely lost a game seven, to an inferior Knicks team that would barely lose a game seven to his Rockets. Furthermore, find me a playoff series in which Chamberlain was outscored by a 29-13 ppg margin, outrebounded by a 11-7 rpg margin, outassisted by a 4.0-.05 margin, outblocked by a 4.0-.8 margin, and outshot by a .523-.426 margin, as Hakeem was in his '99 (first round of the playoffs.) A Wilt at that same age (36) was coming off a FMVP and title from the season before, and would lead his team to a 60-22 record, and to his 4th Finals in his 5 years as a Laker. He would also lead the post-season in rebounding at 22.5 rpg (in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg.)

And, as you already know, Chamberlain was a FAR greater player in the vast majority of his entire 1200 game career. As Oscar said, "The [Record] Book does not lie."

[Deuce Bigalow]

Much higher scoring in the post-season? Hakeem averaged 25.9 ppg on 19.6 FGAs in his playoff career. Chamberlain averaged 22.5 ppg on 17.1 FGAs. In his highest scoring Finals, Hakeem averaged 32.8 ppg on 29 FGAs (and shot an eFG% of .487 in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .504.) In Wilt's highest scoring Finals, he averaged 29.2 ppg on 24 FGAs, (and shot .517 in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .420.) Had Wilt taken 29 FGAs in that Finals, and his scoring numbers jump to 34.5 ppg (and BTW, it was against Russell.)

And speaking of post-season scoring, Hakeem's teams were blown out EIGHT times in the first round in his 15 post-seasons.

Had Wilt had the "good fortune" to have lost in the first round EIGHT times in his post-season career (and not faced Russell and the greatest Dynasty EIGHT times in the second round or later)...how about these numbers...



Ok, and regarding that 31-49 team. It was so bad that they had 16 different players that season. How bad was it? The very next season the Warriors new coach held a scrimmage with that roster, sans Wilt, and against some rookies and scrubs. He was shocked when the veterans lost the game. Oh, and Chamberlain then single-handedly carried that same putrid roster to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals, where Russell and his SEVEN HOF-teammates beat Wilt's rag-tag team, 4-1 (and had to win the last two games in the waning seconds.) In yet another H2H series in which Chamberlain just shredded Russell in every category.

And Wilt was traded at mid-season the very next season, to a Sixer team that had gone 34-46 the year before, and failed to make the playoffs. He then single-handedly took that bottom-feeding team past a loaded Royals team in the first round, and then to a game seven, one point loss against a HOF-laden Celtic team that had gone 62-18. Oh, and all Wilt did in that series was put up a 30 ppg, 31 rpg, .555 series in the process (in a post-season NBA that shot .429 BTW.)

Hakeem was nowhere near the rebounder Wilt was in the post-season, either. In fact, Hakeem was not only outrebounded by opposing centers in two of his three Finals, he was even outrebounded by a teammate in one. Furthermore, he had post-seasons where a teammate was outrebounding him by over four per game. Even using TRB% ( a stat that does not show pure domination), his rebounding rates were miles behind Chamberlain's.

And, find me a post-season in which Wilt's teammates had an eFG% over the league average (and better than him.) Or teammates putting up a .595 TS% in a Finals.

Then, find me post-seasons in which Hakeem's teammates collectively shot these numbers...



Amazingly, Wilt led two teams to titles in seasons in which his teammates collectively shot .428 and .414. Even adjusting for Hakeem's era, those would still be well behind the league average.

BTW, you always bring up West, yet Hakeem couldn't get Barkley and Pippen to a Finals. And he couldn't get Barkley and Drexler to one, either.

Furthermore, he won one title in a year in which MJ took off, and the Bulls still went 55-27 without him, and barely lost a game seven, to an inferior Knicks team that would barely lose a game seven to his Rockets.

And, as you already know, Chamberlain was a FAR greater player in the vast majority of his entire 1200 game career. As Oscar said, "The [Record] Book does not lie."
Barkley and Pip were WELL past their prime, while West was at his PEAK and averaged over 30+ ppg in the 69 & 70 postseasons AND Finals, including 38 ppg in the 69 Finals :facepalm Hakeem never had a team as good as Wilt did multiple times. Can you imagine Hakeem losing with a 30+ ppg on high efficiency guard?

You're right about the record book not lying, it just doesn't have 'Wilt Chamberlain' on it for the Playoffs or Finals.

[LAZERUSS]

Barkley and Pip were WELL past their prime, while West was at his PEAK and averaged over 30+ ppg in the 69 & 70 postseasons AND Finals, including 38 ppg in the 69 Finals :facepalm Hakeem never had a team as good as Wilt did multiple times. Can you imagine Hakeem losing with a 30+ ppg on high efficiency guard?

You're right about the record book not lying, it just doesn't have 'Wilt Chamberlain' on it for the Playoffs or Finals.

And Hakeem didn't win his two rings with his teammates collectively shooting .428 and .414 either. In fact, in one, they had an eFG% of .531!

If Hakeem would have allowed another teammate to shoot as often as West did, he would have scored far less, and probably been knocked out in the first round (yet again.)

BTW, Chamberlain went to 12 Conference Finals, won two rings, and lost to the eventual champion, TEN times (including FIVE game seven's...four of which were by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.) How many times did Hakeem's failures involve losing to the eventual champion?

And if you make the argument that Hakeem's era had more playoff series, it still doesn't explain EIGHT FIRST ROUND EXITs. And, BTW, can you imagine what a prime Chamberlain would have done to the centers that Hakeem faced in his four playoff series' in his '94 title run? In some of them, he didn't even face a legitimate center!

Meanwhile, while Hakeem faced a HOF starting center in 35 of his 145 post-season games (which included five against a 39 year old Kareem, whom he didn't even guard in that series)...and not to mention that Shaq just crushed him in their eight H2H playoff games......Wilt was facing a HOF starting center in 105 of his 160 (including a peak KAJ in 11 of them.)

Oh, and this...

NBA Playoff Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (53 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)
Pulled down a rookie playoff record 35 rebounds in the same game.
Chamberlain also scored 50 as a rookie against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960.

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goals in a seven game series (113 vs. the St. Louis Hawks in 1964)

NBA Playoff Record - Most field goals in a game (24 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)
Record shared with John Havlicek and Michael Jordan

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a playoff game (41 against the Boston Celtics, on April 5, 1967).
Game 3 victory in the Eastern Division finals.

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a half (26 against the San Francisco Warriors on April 16, 1967)
Also an NBA Finals record.

NBA Playoff Record - Highest rebounding average in a playoff series (32.0 in a 5-game series against the Boston Celtics in 1967).

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 5-game playoff series (160 against the Boston Celtics in 1967).

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 6-game playoff series (171 against the San Francisco Warriors in 1967).
Also an NBA Finals record for a 6-game series.

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 7-game playoff series (220 against the Boston Celtics in 1965).

NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a game (35 against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960)
Scored a then-playoff record 53 points (still a rookie record) in the same game (a Game 5 victory).

[Clifton]

I'll just say this, in response to the thread title (didn't read anything else):

It is possible for there to be one outstanding figure in a sport that nobody else touches. Consider Secretariat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretariat_(horse)

Secretariat is the greatest race horse of all time. Period. There is no debate, there is no argument, there is nothing subjective about it. He holds every record, and probably always will. Why? He was a freak. His heart was more than twice as big as any other horse's.

There's no prism through which you can view thoroughbred racing that comes up with any other GOAT. You can't talk about differences in era, jockey, conditions, or nothing. The fact is that his heart weighed 22 pounds and he's the greatest physical specimen ever and he had the drive to match.

Now, basketball is a more complex sport than horse racing. Because of the human dynamics involved, (humans playing in a team game rather than one horse being faster than others) it's going to be a lot less obvious who the best is. But that doesn't mean that one guy can't be head and shoulders better than everyone else, as well as everyone else who comes after, because there are qualities of character and born talent that make a guy a better basketball player than his neighbor.

And I think if you were to name one guy who was "just better," it would be Jordan. He had every physical gift and every character virtue the game requires. And he was able to keep it up into his 40s. A guy like Kobe comes along and plays like he's Mike, and it doesn't work, and everyone watching knows he's not as good. Why? Well his hands are like half as big, he doesn't take contact as well, he doesn't have quite the explosiveness, etc. etc. etc... but ultimately he just doesn't have MJ's 22-pound heart, so to speak. And this isn't to single out Kobe... it's just he was the most daring about it, and came the closest out of anybody to try to be a transcendent great.

Now if you want to explain to me how Magic Johnson or Wilt Chamberlain is better, or right up there with Michael, because of the way they excelled in different aspects of the game from those that MJ did that you think may be more important... we can talk. But only if we can agree that there is a true objective standard, and that by that standard, one guy may just be plain better, and never to be surpassed. That it's possible. We have to agree on that first.

[Deuce Bigalow]

And Hakeem didn't win his two rings with his teammates collectively shooting .428 and .414 either. In fact, in one, they had an eFG% of .531!

If Hakeem would have allowed another teammate to shoot as often as West did, he would have scored far less, and probably been knocked out in the first round (yet again.)

BTW, Chamberlain went to 12 Conference Finals, won two rings, and lost to the eventual champion, TEN times (including FIVE game seven's...four of which were by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.) How many times did Hakeem's failures involve losing to the eventual champion?

And if you make the argument that Hakeem's era had more playoff series, it still doesn't explain EIGHT FIRST ROUND EXITs. And, BTW, can you imagine what a prime Chamberlain would have done to the centers that Hakeem faced in his four playoff series' in his '94 title run? In some of them, he didn't even face a legitimate center!

Meanwhile, while Hakeem faced a HOF starting center in 35 of his 145 post-season games (which included five against a 39 year old Kareem, whom he didn't even guard in that series)...and not to mention that Shaq just crushed him in their eight H2H playoff games......Wilt was facing a HOF starting center in 105 of his 160 (including a peak KAJ in 11 of them.)
Hakeem led his team in points, rebounds, assists, and blocks. And the gap between points was large. One of the most single-handed carrying of a championship team as ever. I don't care what Wilt's teammates shot, he had a teammate that averaged 38 PPG in the NBA Finals and lost, period. BTW, Wilt in that Finals? 11.7 ppg (-8.8 ppg drop off) and 36.4% from the free-throw line. FREETHROWS are part of efficiency you clown, but I wouldn't expect you to mention it because Wilt was the worst freethrow shooter in NBA History. Tell me Wilt's teammates FT% and Wilt's FT% if you want overall efficiency.

[LAZERUSS]

I'll just say this, in response to the thread title (didn't read anything else):

It is possible for there to be one outstanding figure in a sport that nobody else touches. Consider Secretariat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretariat_(horse)

Secretariat is the greatest race horse of all time. Period. There is no debate, there is no argument, there is nothing subjective about it. He holds every record, and probably always will. Why? He was a freak. His heart was more than twice as big as any other horse's.

There's no prism through which you can view thoroughbred racing that comes up with any other GOAT. You can't talk about differences in era, jockey, conditions, or nothing. The fact is that his heart weighed 22 pounds and he's the greatest physical specimen ever and he had the drive to match.

Now, basketball is a more complex sport than horse racing. Because of the human dynamics involved, (humans playing in a team game rather than one horse being faster than others) it's going to be a lot less obvious who the best is. But that doesn't mean that one guy can't be head and shoulders better than everyone else, as well as everyone else who comes after, because there are qualities of character and born talent that make a guy a better basketball player than his neighbor.

And I think if you were to name one guy who was "just better," it would be Jordan. He had every physical gift and every character virtue the game requires. And he was able to keep it up into his 40s. A guy like Kobe comes along and plays like he's Mike, and it doesn't work, and everyone watching knows he's not as good. Why? Well his hands are like half as big, he doesn't take contact as well, he doesn't have quite the explosiveness, etc. etc. etc... but ultimately he just doesn't have MJ's 22-pound heart, so to speak. And this isn't to single out Kobe... it's just he was the most daring about it, and came the closest out of anybody to try to be a transcendent great.

Now if you want to explain to me how Magic Johnson or Wilt Chamberlain is better, or right up there with Michael, because of the way they excelled in different aspects of the game from those that MJ did that you think may be more important... we can talk. But only if we can agree that there is a true objective standard, and that by that standard, one guy may just be plain better, and never to be surpassed. That it's possible. We have to agree on that first.

The bottom line is that basketball is a TEAM game. Here again, using rings, and Russell is miles ahead of MJ. If you use playoff scoring, then MJ is the leader. But, that is only ONE aspect of the game. And, the fact was, MJ took FAR more FGAs per game, than any other great. He certainly wasn't the most efficient scorer. And he was nowhere the rebounder that Wilt and Russell were. He didn't have the defensive impact that Wilt and Russell brought. He wasn't the passer, or as efficient a scorer as Magic. You can go right down the list. If you include regular season...Wilt by MILES. And, if you include regular season/post-season combined...Wilt again.

If you want to argue that MJ is AMONG the top-5... Russell, KAJ, Wilt, and Magic...I agree 100%. But he was not CLEARLY the greatest.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The bottom line is that basketball is a TEAM game. Here again, using rings, and Russell is miles ahead of MJ. If you use playoff scoring, then MJ is the leader. But, that is only ONE aspect of the game. And, the fact was, MJ took FAR more FGAs per game, than any other great. He certainly wasn't the most efficient scorer. And he was nowhere the rebounder that Wilt and Russell were. He didn't have the defensive impact that Wilt and Russell brought. He wasn't the passer, or as efficient a scorer as Magic. You can go right down the list. If you include regular season...Wilt by MILES. And, if you include regular season/post-season combined...Wilt again.

If you want to argue that MJ is AMONG the top-5... Russell, KAJ, Wilt, and Magic...I agree 100%. But he was not CLEARLY the greatest.
How about no.

[fpliii]

The bottom line is that basketball is a TEAM game. Here again, using rings, and Russell is miles ahead of MJ. If you use playoff scoring, then MJ is the leader. But, that is only ONE aspect of the game. And, the fact was, MJ took FAR more FGAs per game, than any other great. He certainly wasn't the most efficient scorer. And he was nowhere the rebounder that Wilt and Russell were. He didn't have the defensive impact that Wilt and Russell brought. He wasn't the passer, or as efficient a scorer as Magic. You can go right down the list. If you include regular season...Wilt by MILES. And, if you include regular season/post-season combined...Wilt again.

If you want to argue that MJ is AMONG the top-5... Russell, KAJ, Wilt, and Magic...I agree 100%. But he was not CLEARLY the greatest.

You have him clearly over Bird/Oscar? I'm a Lakers fan and all, but I've changed my stance in the last few months after watching more tape.

[Phantom84]

He is clearly the greatest in my book: 6 rings, 5 mvp, 10 scoring title, 1 dpoy, 1 roy, highest point average in nba history, undefeated in the finals, always the best player on his team, ect..

[Deuce Bigalow]

Lol JL trying to say Wilt and Magic have a case over the GOAT :oldlol: Wilt isn't in the conversation with his 2 rings get out of here :facepalm The only players that have a case for GOAT is Jordan, Russell, and Kareem. Let's not forget the great George Mikan either...

[ihoopallday]

There are just too many things that have to go right for someone to replicate what Jordan did. I just don't see it happening anytime soon. The guy hasn't played an NBA game in years, yet kids still line up to buy his sneakers. He's still in most NBA fan's daily conversations. To me, someone like Usain Bolt pops to mind when thinking of athletes who transcended their respective sports.

[juju151111]

You have him clearly over Bird/Oscar? I'm a Lakers fan and all, but I've changed my stance in the last few months after watching more tape.
How is Bird better then Magic.

[fpliii]

How is Bird better then Magic.

We can get into that debate another day, just the impression I get. I don't have a problem with people putting Magic ahead, I had him there as well until I watched more of Bird from his rookie season through the first championship.

But I was asking why lazeruss has Magic as definitively ahead of Bird/Oscar, as opposed to on the same level (in terms of quality/ability as a player, I don't get into the resume discussion).

OT - BTW my young MJ (86-87 through 90-91) game DVDs arrived, I'm gonna watch them over the next couple of weeks. I'll start a thread when I've had a chance to check them all out and reformulate my opinions so we can discuss his defense. :cheers:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

You have him clearly over Bird/Oscar? I'm a Lakers fan and all, but I've changed my stance in the last few months after watching more tape.
How come Shaq never gets top 5 GOAT consideration?

[fpliii]

How come Shaq never gets top 5 GOAT consideration?

I don't keep a GOAT personally and I can't speak for anybody else, but he rates very, very favorably in my "best ever"/most impactful/all-time draft list. It's a very unorthodox list I've discussed it with a few people offline (and here via PMs). I won't say where he falls exactly, but yeah, he's very firmly in my top 5 in that list.

Though it won't ever see the light of day. :pimp:

[D-Wade316]

How come Shaq never gets top 5 GOAT consideration?
And Duncan too. Both are clearly ahead of Magic and Bird. Longer careers, greater peaks.

[Deuce Bigalow]

We can get into that debate another day, just the impression I get. I don't have a problem with people putting Magic ahead, I had him there as well until I watched more of Bird from his rookie season through the first championship.

But I was asking why lazeruss has Magic as definitively ahead of Bird/Oscar, as opposed to on the same level (in terms of quality/ability as a player, I don't get into the resume discussion).

OT - BTW my young MJ (86-87 through 90-91) game DVDs arrived, I'm gonna watch them over the next couple of weeks. I'll start a thread when I've had a chance to check them all out and reformulate my opinions so we can discuss his defense. :cheers:
Didn't basically everyone consider Bird the better player every year up until '87? Then Bird got injured and Magic racked up back to back titles...

[fpliii]

Didn't basically everyone consider Bird the better player every year up until '87? Then Bird got injured and Magic racked up back to back titles...

I think so. Magic had a great season in 86-87, but through 87-88 Bird was a beast. He went down early the next season (had surgery to remove bone spurs from his heels) and was never the same. His back was already bad at that point, and was getting worse.

Bird also destroyed his finger the summer prior to his rookie season (playing softball with his brother(s)/friends I believe) and never got it fixed (look at some photos; he also said he couldn't feel it at all thereafter, IIRC, so that probably seriously altered his shooting touch.

I'm not a big resume guy (accolades mean nothing when I compare players; all that matters is how good a guy is, and how much he improves your chances of winning championships), but if someone goes that route Magic is clearly better obviously.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I think so. Magic had a great season in 86-87, but through 87-88 Bird was a beast. He went down early the next season (had surgery to remove bone spurs from his heels) and was never the same. His back was already bad at that point, and was getting worse.

Bird also destroyed his finger the summer prior to his rookie season (playing softball with his brother(s)/friends I believe) and never got it fixed (look at some photos; he also said he couldn't feel it at all thereafter, IIRC, so that probably seriously altered his shooting touch.

I'm not a big resume guy (accolades mean nothing when I compare players; all that matters is how good a guy is, and how much he improves your chances of winning championships), but if someone goes that route Magic is clearly better obviously.
30-9-6 on 61%TS for Bird in 87-88 season :bowdown:
When did he get injured that year? His playoff numbers dropped, I'm guessing around playoff time? Did he even get injured in 87-88?

[fpliii]

30-9-6 on 61%TS for Bird in 87-88 season :bowdown:
When did he get injured that year? His playoff numbers dropped, I'm guessing around playoff time? Did he even get injured in 87-88?

Early 88-89 he got injured, not sure about 87-88.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Early 88-89 he got injured, not sure about 87-88.
That is why I can't put him over Magic. He had quite a few playoff failures. 7 playoff series lost with HCA including the 88 series vs Detroit. 20-12-6 on 45%TS in that series coming off his amazing regular season :wtf: He was healthy in that series? That is 2004 Finals Kobesque performance tbh...vs Detroit too like Kobe.

[fpliii]

That is why I can't put him over Magic. He had quite a few playoff failures. 7 playoff series lost with HCA including the 88 series vs Detroit. 20-12-6 on 45%TS in that series coming off his amazing regular season :wtf: He was healthy in that series? That is 2004 Finals Kobesque performance tbh...vs Detroit too like Kobe.

I can respect that, but look at the losses:

80 - 76ers (Dr. J)
81 - won
82 - 76ers (Dr. J)
83 - Bucks (underrated, Moncrief/Marques were beasts)
84 - won
85 - Lakers (Kareem/Magic)
86 - won
87 - Lakers (Magic)
88 - Pistons (would've been the champions if Isiah didn't get hurt)
89 - DNP (not the same player hereafter, so losses don't mean as much)
90 - Knicks
91 - Pistons
92 - Cavs

I can't fault him for losing to great players in the playoffs, HCA doesn't mean much when you're going against superstars. Bird had McHale and some other great players obviously as well, but it seems like it was a crapshoot.

I don't have Kobe ahead, but the one thing is, defenses weren't as dominant back then. Here are the defenses Bird faced in the playoffs (measured in % difference from league average):

-1%
-2%
-3%
-2%
-2%
-1%
-0%
-2%
-1%
--
-0%
1%
0%

and the defenses Kobe faced:

-3%
-1%
-3%
-3%
-4%
-4%
-2%
-6%
--
-0%
0%
-4%
-3%
-2%
-2%
0%
--

Tougher D for sure.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I can respect that, but look at the losses:

80 - 76ers (Dr. J)
81 - won
82 - 76ers (Dr. J)
83 - Bucks (underrated, Moncrief/Marques were beasts)
84 - won
85 - Lakers (Kareem/Magic)
86 - won
87 - Lakers (Magic)
88 - Pistons (would've been the champions if Isiah didn't get hurt)
89 - DNP (not the same player hereafter, so losses don't mean as much)
90 - Knicks
91 - Pistons
92 - Cavs

I can't fault him for losing to great players in the playoffs, HCA doesn't mean much when you're going against superstars. Bird had McHale and some other great players obviously as well, but it seems like it was a crapshoot.

I don't have Kobe ahead, but the one thing is, defenses weren't as dominant back then. Here are the defenses Bird faced in the playoffs (measured in % difference from league average):

-1%
-2%
-3%
-2%
-2%
-1%
-0%
-2%
-1%
--
-0%
1%
0%

and the defenses Kobe faced:

-3%
-1%
-3%
-3%
-4%
-4%
-2%
-6%
--
-0%
0%
-4%
-3%
-2%
-2%
0%
--

Tougher D for sure.
How close is Kobe to Bird to you? I think when its all said and done for Kobe he will have a great case over Bird, not just in terms of longevity but on actual play in the playoffs. Hard to compare because of the different eras of course but I think Kobe's overall and all-around game is underrated, he has had some great 30/7/7+ type playoff series, two seasons of 6.0 apg, and couple of seasons of over 6 rpg including 6.9 at his peak. For now I have Bird higher because of his "legend"/legacy if you know what I mean.

About the defenses, Kobe gets a lot of criticsm over his Finals shooting percentages but what other played faced as many great defenses in the Finals? Kobe never got one "easy" defense to play against except maybe Indiana in '00 but he was only 21. When I looked at MJ's % vs defenses with a rating of 100.6 or better, which was only 2 series he shot 40% and 38%, keep in mind he doesn't take as many 3s as Kobe too, so his efficiency was worse.

[fpliii]

How close is Kobe to Bird to you? I think when its all said and done for Kobe he will have a great case over Bird, not just in terms of longevity but on actual play in the playoffs. Hard to compare because of the different eras of course but I think Kobe's overall and all-around game is underrated, he has had some great 30/7/7+ type playoff series, two seasons of 6.0 apg, and couple of seasons of over 6 rpg including 6.9 at his peak. For now I have Bird higher because of his "legend"/legacy if you know what I mean.

I'm not sure, I don't really do GOAT lists. I think you have to view players as G/F/C, different guys asked to do different things.

I will say this though, I think they're perhaps the two most skilled players in league history. I don't know who was/is better, though.

[fpliii]

About the defenses, Kobe gets a lot of criticsm over his Finals shooting percentages but what other played faced as many great defenses in the Finals? Kobe never got one "easy" defense to play against except maybe Indiana in '00 but he was only 21. When I looked at MJ's % vs defenses with a rating of 100.6 or better, which was only 2 series he shot 40% and 38%, keep in mind he doesn't take as many 3s as Kobe too, so his efficiency was worse.

I don't have the numbers for just the Finals right now (I remember comparing them a few months ago in a thread though), but here are the overall playoff numbers for MJ:

p

[Micku]

That is why I can't put him over Magic. He had quite a few playoff failures. 7 playoff series lost with HCA including the 88 series vs Detroit. 20-12-6 on 45%TS in that series coming off his amazing regular season :wtf: He was healthy in that series? That is 2004 Finals Kobesque performance tbh...vs Detroit too like Kobe.

Nah. He was dealing with painful bones spurs in both feet. I believe he was fighting it throughout the playoffs. I remember reading an article saying that he didn't look the same in the playoffs as he did in the regular season. He wasn't as quick, out of the flow with the offense, and distorted.

He had surgery on his feet the next season. And he always said he would've retired in 1988 because of the injuries kept getting worse, but played on. I remember reading he did similar things a lot. He would not tell anybody that something was wrong with him until it gets really bad. I remember reading in the "When the Game was Ours" Bird had an infection between his toe in 1985 season. He didn't tell anybody about it for three weeks, until it started to really show. He finally went to the doctor and they had to cut it open. They wanted to give him a shot of Novocain, but he refused it and told him just give him beer instead and he'll deal with the pain. He played later that night too. When they took off his shoe, his socks were covered in blood.

Going a bit off topic there, heh. With all that said you gott'a give credits to the Pistons. Bird was still playing solid before that series. He wasn't healthy in the playoffs tho. After that, he had to deal with his back and a bunch of other injuries.

[Mr. Jabbar]

To me, someone like Usain Bolt pops to mind when thinking of athletes who transcended their respective sports.

muhammad ali, thats the only guy transcending his sport in a similar way than jordan

[RoundMoundOfReb]

muhammad ali, thats the only guy transcending his sport in a similar way than jordan
So most transcendent is not necessarily the best?

[Mr. Jabbar]

So most transcendent is not necessarily the best?

not necessarily, different things, almost always go together tho. but lets say a guy with no special carisma dominates cricket like no one has ever dominated his sport, pulverizing every record, that dudes not trascending cause a) no one gives a shit about cricket b) he didnt have any special carisma/character, to trascend you basically need to dominate your sport, that sport needs to be popular, your character must be somehow memorable

if you die young/tragically or suffer invalidating injury on top of the above your case gets even stronger

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

MJ didnt disappoint? How about when the Bulls faced Orlando and MJ constantly choked and lost the series?

[air mamba]

they don't, to be honest i never thought he was the clear GOAT, I wouldn't be surprised if someone had Russell, Kareem, Wilt, or Magic over him, they arguably did a lot more for the NBA and the game of basketball than Jordan ever did.

But i will admit what Jordan has over them is the media, and this weird themed storyline thats kinda hard to explain but something the others never had...

[DetroitPiston]

MJ's one of the best players around, but the thing with legends it that people forget their faults. The more time passes, the more outlandish they tend to get. And that's what's happening with Jordan right now. It'll happen with LeBron 15 years down the line if he keeps playing at a high level.

[Haymaker]

MJ didnt disappoint? How about when the Bulls faced Orlando and MJ constantly choked and lost the series?

a 2 yrs off MJ fresh from the ballpark? GTFOH

[Psileas]

A major problem is that the word "people" implies only the ones who actively take part in such debates and this, in the vast majority if cases, includes youngsters and young/middle aged adults. What if we extend this to ages who rarely participate online? Here's, for example, something for the ones who still try to maintain that Wilt has no case for GOAT:

https://www.google.gr/search?hl=el&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=%22i+saw+wilt+play%22&gbv=2&oq=%22i+saw+wilt+play%22&gs_l=heirloom-hp.3...292906.296922.0.297172.17.17.0.0.0.0.235.21 40.1j9j4.14.0....0...1c.1.24.heirloom-hp..11.6.1047.6W0Biy5_O-s

Are they "people" enough? These are random fans from various discussions who watched Wilt play live, not just a few clips here and there, and most of them claim that Wilt was either the greatest or, at least, an obvious GOAT candidate among the ones they've seen, and they've seen more than 99% of posters. Interestingly, none of them puts Jordan in an "untouchable" category of his own and none of them claims that Wilt was "great for his era alone" or overrated and not among the very greatest they've ever seen. And although some memories may have faded, I'll still take these memories over no memories at all.

[Psileas]

A major problem is that the word "people" implies only the ones who actively take part in such debates and this, in the vast majority if cases, includes youngsters and young/middle aged adults. What if we extend this to ages who rarely participate online? Here's, for example, something for the ones who still try to maintain that Wilt has no case for GOAT:

https://www.google.gr/search?hl=el&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=%22i+saw+wilt+play%22&gbv=2&oq=%22i+saw+wilt+play%22&gs_l=heirloom-hp.3...292906.296922.0.297172.17.17.0.0.0.0.235.21 40.1j9j4.14.0....0...1c.1.24.heirloom-hp..11.6.1047.6W0Biy5_O-s

Are they "people" enough? These are random fans from various discussions who watched Wilt play live, not just a few clips here and there, and most of them claim that Wilt was either the greatest or, at least, an obvious GOAT candidate among the ones they've seen, and they've seen more than 99% of posters. Interestingly, none of them puts Jordan in an "untouchable" category of his own and none of them claims that Wilt was "great for his era alone" or overrated and not among the very greatest they've ever seen. And although some memories may have faded, I'll still take these memories over no memories at all.

BTW, the few ones who saw Wilt play and they post here are no exception to the rule. They, not surprisingly, belong to the same category.