Highest career PPG drop-off from Regular season to Playoffs List

[Deuce Bigalow]

I looked through the top 100 PPG players that played a of minimum 30 playoff games.

Career Playoff PPG - Career Regular Season PPG
Wilt Chamberlain: -7.6 ppg
Glen Robinson: -6.9 ppg
John Drew: -6.7 ppg
Stephon Marbury: -6.7 ppg
World B. Free: -6.3 ppg
Spencer Haywood: -5.8 ppg
Tiny Archibald: -4.6 ppg
Neil Johnston: -4.4 ppg
Jamal Mashburn: -4.1 ppg
Kiki Vandeweghe: -3.6 ppg
Gilbert Arenas: -3.6 ppg
Chris Bosh: -3.6 ppg
David Robinson: -3.0 ppg

[Myth]

I looked through the top 100 PPG players that played a of minimum 30 playoff games.

Career Playoff PPG - Career Regular Season PPG
Wilt Chamberlain: -7.6 ppg
Glen Robinson: -6.9 ppg
John Drew: -6.7 ppg
Stephon Marbury: -6.7 ppg
World B. Free: -6.3 ppg
Spencer Haywood: -5.8 ppg
Tiny Archibald: -4.6 ppg
Neil Johnston: -4.4 ppg
Jamal Mashburn: -4.1 ppg
Kiki Vandeweghe: -3.6 ppg
Gilbert Arenas: -3.6 ppg
Chris Bosh: -3.6 ppg
David Robinson: -3.0 ppg

Seems to fit the reputation of these after 1990 players.

[russwest0]

Do FG% next

[plowking]

F*ck Jamal Mashburn.

[CavaliersFTW]

'Wilt's playoff stats for dummies' (OP):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260704

50 percent of Wilt's career playoff games are played from the age of 32-36, as a defensive anchor.

Where as only 32 percent of Wilt's career regular season games are played from that same age with that same role.

His scoring years on inferior teams weren't spent deep in the playoffs like his solid teams in his later years, they even switched the format of # of games played in the 1st round after his offensive role changed (during his scoring years round 1 was only a best of 5 series not a best of 7). Basically, career playoff and career regular season stats should not be compared directly w/o an understanding of differences like this. This goes for any player - as there are other great players on here who your inadvertently throwing under the bus (like Tiny Archibald) with your obvious agenda thread. OP knows this, he's just up to his usual Wilt trolling and Jlauber/LAZERUSS essay baiting.

[moe94]

What's the word on the boy Mikan?

[Deuce Bigalow]

'Wilt's playoff stats for dummies' (OP):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260704

50 percent of Wilt's career playoff games are played from the age of 32-36, as a defensive anchor.

Where as only 32 percent of Wilt's career regular season games are played from that same age with that same role.

His scoring years on inferior teams weren't spent deep in the playoffs like his solid teams in his later years, they even switched the format of # of games played in the 1st round after his offensive role changed (during his scoring years round 1 was only a best of 5 series not a best of 7). Basically, career playoff and career regular season stats should not be compared directly w/o an understanding of differences like this. This goes for any player - as there are other great players on here who your inadvertently throwing under the bus (like Tiny Archibald) with your obvious agenda thread. OP knows this, he's just up to his usual Wilt trolling and Jlauber/LAZERUSS essay baiting.
I'll paste what I already posted in that thread

This argument that the reason for his huge playoff ppg drop (30.1 to 22.5) was because he became more focused on defense and stopped being the primary scorer later on in his career doesn't even make sense. He did the same thing in the regular season too. From '60-'66 Wilt averaged over 33 ppg every regular season. From '66-'73 he never averaged more than 25 ppg in a regular season. Meaning he changed his role in the regular season too, not just in the playoffs.

Even if you look at his scoring prime and compare the regular season and playoff stats you will see a huge decline.
Wilt '60-'66 Regular season ppg: 39.6
Wilt '60-'66 Postseason ppg: 32.8

6.8 ppg drop-off, which is almost the same as his career 7.6 ppg drop-off.

[Deuce Bigalow]

What's the word on the boy Mikan?
His PPG went up of course

[CavaliersFTW]

I'll paste what I already posted in that thread

This argument that the reason for his huge playoff ppg drop (30.1 to 22.5) was because he became more focused on defense and stopped being the primary scorer later on in his career doesn't even make sense. He did the same thing in the regular season too. From '60-'66 Wilt averaged over 33 ppg every regular season. From '66-'73 he never averaged more than 25 ppg in a regular season. Meaning he changed his role in the regular season too, not just in the playoffs.

Even if you look at his scoring prime and compare the regular season and playoff stats you will see a huge decline.
Wilt '60-'66 Regular season ppg: 39.6
Wilt '60-'66 Postseason ppg: 32.8

6.8 ppg drop-off, which is almost the same as his career 7.6 ppg drop-off.
Save yourself the headache and click the link Deuce, it shows you the number of games he played in regular season, and playoffs. The ratio is different, much much different than even comparing the seasons alone would indicate. Is this too complicated to understand for you? He played a disproportinately higher number of games as a defensive player or balanced all around player in the playoffs than he did as a scorer. He played hardly any playoff games at all as a scorer in comparison to how his regular season career was played.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Save yourself the headache and click the link Deuce, it shows you the number of games he played in regular season, and playoffs. The ratio is different, much much different than the seasons alone would indicate. Is this too complicated to understand for you?
How much more facts do you want? His career Playoff PPG drop-off is 7.6. His PPG dropped in the playoffs every single year of his career. In his scoring prime where he won 7 scoring titles in a row, his playoff ppg dropped off by 6.8. In the second part of his career his playoff ppg also dropped off. But go on and tell me more about how modern day camera's would make Wilt's arms look bigger...

[Myth]

'Wilt's playoff stats for dummies' (OP):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260704

50 percent of Wilt's career playoff games are played from the age of 32-36, as a defensive anchor.

Where as only 32 percent of Wilt's career regular season games are played from that same age with that same role.

His scoring years on inferior teams weren't spent deep in the playoffs like his solid teams in his later years, they even switched the format of # of games played in the 1st round after his offensive role changed (during his scoring years round 1 was only a best of 5 series not a best of 7). Basically, career playoff and career regular season stats should not be compared directly w/o an understanding of differences like this. This goes for any player - as there are other great players on here who your inadvertently throwing under the bus (like Tiny Archibald) with your obvious agenda thread. OP knows this, he's just up to his usual Wilt trolling and Jlauber/LAZERUSS essay baiting.

Was the OP's just career average minus playoff average? I thought this was going to be based on years where they were in both, such that you average the differential each year. For example, in Wilt's rookie year he averaged 37.6ppg in the regular season and 33.2ppg in the playoffs, making a 4.4 point differential. Doing it this way, Wilt on average had a 4.18 drop in points from regular season to playoffs.

I have no idea how that compares to others and I won't be calculating it. There must be a website that can do this quickly.

[CavaliersFTW]

How much more facts do you want? His career Playoff PPG drop-off is 7.6. His PPG dropped in the playoffs every single year of his career. In his scoring prime where he won 7 scoring titles in a row, his playoff ppg dropped off by 6.8. In the second part of his career his playoff ppg also dropped off. But go on and tell me more about how modern day camera's would make Wilt's arm's look bigger...
The amount of ether delivered to you in your own Wilt threads in recent months has been borderline criminal. I know a few years ago you had a good run trolling Wilt and his passionate fan JL back when nobody else was doing research and no footage existed but look, I truly am sorry to say this to you and ruin your fun but not many people care about Wilt-bashing anymore, it's nothing more than a novelty on ISH these days. Too much actual research has been done, too much actual footage has been uncovered. If you act serious about it your only going to drown in your own threads, because it's too easy to dispel your misinformation or add the appropriate context to anything you say. From here on out every time you try to talk about Wilt in a condescending manner it's just going to look like a sad attempt to get attention because we all know you've been corrected enough times to know better.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wilt stans rolling out the excuse carpet once again.

[Myth]

Wilt stans rolling out the excuse carpet once again.

I only see CavFTW defending. I was just pointing out what I thought would be a more accurate way of comparing based on his complaint and used Wilt as the example. So.... who are these stans you speak of?

[moe94]

So.... who are these stans you speak of?

Cav counts as like 10 stans by himself, at least.

[TheCorporation]

I only see CavFTW defending. I was just pointing out what I thought would be a more accurate way of comparing based on his complaint and used Wilt as the example. So.... who are these stans you speak of?

Yeah, I was wondering if OP did it year for year, and then divided by the amount of years being compared, or just straight up regular season ppg and playoff ppg.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The amount of ether delivered to you in your own Wilt threads in recent months has been borderline criminal. I know a few years ago you had a good run trolling Wilt and his passionate fan JL back when nobody else was doing research and no footage existed but look, I truly am sorry to say this to you and ruin your fun but not many people care about Wilt-bashing anymore, it's nothing more than a novelty on ISH these days. Too much actual research has been done, too much actual footage has been uncovered. If you act serious about it your only going to drown in your own threads, because it's too easy to dispel your misinformation or add the appropriate context to anything you say. From here on out every time you try to talk about Wilt in a condescending manner it's just going to look like a sad attempt to get attention because we all know you've been corrected enough times to know better.
Posting facts is trolling? Posting excuses is ethering? No amount of paragraphs written by his stans or footage uncovered will change the fact that he only won 2 rings. That is why Jlauber has to cherrypick stats to prop Wilt up and try to trash other greats. Because Wilt is lacking in the postseason compared to the other top 10 GOATs.

[CavaliersFTW]

Posting facts is trolling? Posting excuses is ethering? No amount of paragraphs written by his stans or footage uncovered will change the fact that he only won 2 rings. That is why Jlauber has to cherrypick stats to prop Wilt up and try to trash other greats. Because Wilt is lacking in the postseason compared to the other top 10 GOATs.
Remind me why Kobe has a career case over Sam Jones again?

51 points in the playoffs - most clutch playoff performer in NBA history - 10 rings

Good luck - be sure you don't get caught using any of the logical fallacies you like to place on Wilt.

[Suguru101]

His PPG went up of course

Dude was legit as F**k. He's the second most interesting player from the 1960s/1950s era, after Russell.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Remind me why Kobe has a career case over Sam Jones again?

51 points in the playoffs - most clutch playoff performer in NBA history - 10 rings

Good luck - be sure you don't get caught using any of the logical fallacies you like to place on Wilt.
All-NBA First Teams
Kobe - 11
Jones - 0

[LAZERUSS]

Obviously this proves that James Worthy was greater than Bird, Magic, Kareem, Bryant, Shaq, Duncan, Bryant, and MJ.

Duece with clear-cut proof that Worthy was the GOAT...

[LAZERUSS]

All-NBA First Teams
Kobe - 11
Jones - 0

That was not the point of your original post, though, was it? Obviously Sam Jones was a far superior clutch playoff performer if you are going by just how much worse, or better, a player performed in the post-season.

Oh, and since you somehow blame Wilt for "only" winning two rings (despite being the best player on the floor in the vast majority of his playoff series), then,...

Jones 10, Kobe 5.

Jones record in his Finals, 10-1. Kobe, 5-2.

Clearly, when it came to actually winning, Jones was the far superior player, as well.

Based on all of that, how can anyone seriously consider Kobe the better player?

BTW, if playoff scoring is the most important aspect in a player's career, then how come players like Baylor, West, Gervin, Iverson, and Dirk aren't ranked ahead of players like Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Kareem, Bird, Russell, and your boy Kobe, in these GOAT lists?

[Owl]

Out of curiosity, to OP

What is your point? Seriously? Is it about levels of playoff competition (Wilt playing Russell a lot)? That you have to score a lot to have your scoring drop off a lot (incidentally using ratios would eliminate this bias against high scorers)? That these players generally played a disportionate percentage of their playoff minutes after their scoring peak, or in subordinate scoring roles? Are you saying these players are bad? Obviously you think there's some insight or relevence to these numbers, what is it?

Incidentally, with regard to the importance of being All-NBA, Wilt Chamberlain has 7 all-NBA teams, all of them over an arguable GOAT candidate and multiple time MVP, (and, additional context, Sam Jones was consistently all 2nd team NBA behind two top 15 all time players).

[Psileas]

The magic of stats for dummies:

Postseasons when Wilt fell by 7.6+ ppg: 1
Postseasons when Wilt fell by less than 7.6 ppg: 12

[Psileas]

Also (first post of the page):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=312451&page=12

[LAZERUSS]

Out of curiosity, to OP

What is your point? Seriously? Is it about levels of playoff competition (Wilt playing Russell a lot)? That you have to score a lot to have your scoring drop off a lot (incidentally using ratios would eliminate this bias against high scorers)? That these players generally played a disportionate percentage of their playoff minutes after their scoring peak, or in subordinate scoring roles? Are you saying these players are bad? Obviously you think there's some insight or relevence to these numbers, what is it?

Incidentally, with regard to the importance of being All-NBA, Wilt Chamberlain has 7 all-NBA teams, all of them over an arguable GOAT candidate and multiple time MVP, (and, additional context, Sam Jones was consistently all 2nd team NBA behind two top 15 all time players).

And I have read clowns here who have claimed that Chamberlain never led his team in scoring in the playoffs in his two titles (even going so far as to say that he was "carried.")

Of course, in his first championship, he did lead the team in scoring during the regular season...as well as rebounds, assists, TRB%, blocked shots, FG%, TS%, mpg, PER...you name it. On a team that went 68-13. And in his playoff run, he had playoff series of 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and shot .612 from the field; 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 apg, and shot .556; and then 17.5 ppg, 28.5 rpg, 6.8 apg, and shot .560 from the floor. And in the last two series he was going up against arguably the two greatest defensive centers to have ever played the game (not to mention that he completely wiped the floor with both of them in every facet of the game.)

Oh, and he had the team's highest scoring playoff game (41 points.) And, in the team's clinching playoff series win over Boston, while Greer led the team with 32 points, it came on 12-28 shooting, while Wilt's 29 (22 of which came in the first half while the game was still close), came on 10-16 shooting. And in the clinching game six win in the Finals, while Greer scored 15 points on 5-16 shooting, Chamberlain scored 24 on 8-13 shooting.

Regarding the Finals that year, Chamberlain outscored Thurmond in five of the six games; outrebounded him in five of the six games; outassisted him in five of the six games; and outshot him from the floor in all six.

And I have mentioned it many times, but the "anti-Wilt clan" NEVER bring up the fact that Chamberlain routinely reduced the efficiencies of his opposing centers by huge margins. For instance, in the '67 EDF"s, he held Russell, who had averaged 13.3 ppg on .454 shooting, to 10.2 ppg on a .358 FG%. And in the Finals, he held Thurmond, (in Nate's greatest statistical season BTW...and he also finished second in the MVP voting), in a season in which he had averaged 18.7 ppg on a .437 FG%, to 14.3 ppg on a .343 FG%.

Overall, Greer led Philly in playoff scoring in '67 at 27.7 ppg, but on a .429 FG%. Wilt was next at 21.7 ppg, but on a .579 FG%. Oh, and Greer averaged 5.9 apg and 5.3 rpg...Chamberlain was at 9.0 apg and 29.1 rpg.

Furthermore, just the season before, and in his team's series clinching loss in the EDF's, Wilt hung a 46-34 game on Russell (just one of 24 40+ point games he had against Russell in his career.) And in that same season, he plastered Thurmond with games of 38 and 45 points (outscoring Nate 38-15 and 45-13 in the process.) So, only a complete idiot would have to believe that Chamberlain was not capable of scoring much more in that '67 playoff run.

And in Wilt's '72 Finals, in a series in which "Mr. Clutch" Jerry West shot .325 from the field, all Wilt did was put up a 19.4 ppg, 23.2 rpg, .600 series. And in the clinching game five win, Wilt, playing with one badly sprained hand, and a fracture in the other, put up a 24 point, 10-14 shooting, 8 block, 29 rebound game (BTW, the entire NY team collectively had 39 rebounds)...en route to winning the FMVP.

But, yes, as anyone can plainly see, Chamberlain had to be "carried" in his title runs.

[KingBeasley08]

This is why I'm not too big a fan of Wilt. Couldn't play when the stakes were high

[LAZERUSS]

This is why I'm not too big a fan of Wilt. Couldn't play when the stakes were high

Chamberlain played in 29 playoff series, and was probably the best player on the floor in 25 of them. He also played in 160 playoff games, and probably outplayed his opposing centers, most all of whom were in the HOF, in perhaps 75% of them.

Furthermore, for those that argue that he "only" won two rings. He came within an eye-lash of winning FOUR more, and if you include 1970, FIVE more.

[KingBeasley08]

Chamberlain played in 29 playoff series, and was probably the best player on the floor in 25 of them. He also played in 160 playoff games, and probably outplayed his opposing centers, most all of whom were in the HOF, in perhaps 75% of them.

Furthermore, for those that argue that he "only" won two rings. He came within an eye-lash of winning FOUR more, and if you include 1970, FIVE more.
It seems like his stats always dropped in the playoffs. If he played it like the regular season, he might have actually won FOUR more and if you include 1970, FIVE more

[LAZERUSS]

It seems like his stats always dropped in the playoffs. If he played it like the regular season, he might have actually won FOUR more and if you include 1970, FIVE more

Oh of course. After all, many players have put up 50 ppg and 45 ppg post-seasons. How come Wilt couldn't?

[jlip]

Well, good thing Wilt actually played in an era where individual scoring was not viewed as the chief criterion for greatness. Despite his scoring prowess, he played in an era where the ability for big men, especially, to control the paint defensively, rebound, initiate the fast break with quick outlet passes, and facilitate the offense from the post were valued. The ability for a big man to affect the game without dominant scoring in those ways is the reason Russell, Unseld, and a little later, Walton were winning MVPs with 30+ppg scorers in the league despite them never even reaching 20ppg. Heck...it's greatly the reason why Wilt's '67 season where he avg. "only" 24ppg is widely considered to be greater than his '62 season where he avg. 50ppg. It's also why Wilt, Unseld, and Walton could win Finals MVPs without leading their teams in scoring or anybody even caring if their scoring had "increased in the playoffs" or not.

From what I've observed, while high individual scoring has always been praised, this singular obsession with with it as the most important mark of greatness or "raising your game" is a view that gained currency after the MJ generation started determining greatness based on "how MJ played the game" without much prior understanding or at least recognition of how the game had been historically assessed.

[LAZERUSS]

Well, good thing Wilt actually played in an era where individual scoring was not viewed as the chief criterion for greatness. Despite his scoring prowess, he played in an era where the ability for big men, especially, to control the paint defensively, rebound, initiate the fast break with quick outlet passes, and facilitate the offense from the post were valued. The ability for a big man to affect the game without dominant scoring in those ways is the reason Russell, Unseld, and a little later, Walton were winning MVPs with 30+ppg scorers in the league despite them never even reaching 20ppg. Heck...it's greatly the reason why Wilt's '67 season where he avg. "only" 24ppg is widely considered to be greater than his '62 season where he avg. 50ppg. It's also why Wilt, Unseld, and Walton could win Finals MVPs without leading their teams in scoring or anybody even caring if their scoring had "increased in the playoffs" or not.

From what I've observed, while high individual scoring has always been praised, this singular obsession with with it as the most important mark of greatness or "raising your game" is a view that gained currency after the MJ generation started determining greatness based on "how MJ played the game" without much prior understanding or at least recognition of how the game had been historically assessed.

You can add Magic to that list. And, like Wilt, he certainly could have scored much more.

Incidently, in Wilt's 61-62 season, in which he averaged 50 ppg, he took 40 FGAs per game. In that post-season, in which he "only" averaged 35 ppg, he averaged 29 FGAs per game. Clearly, had he taken 40 FGAs per game in the playoffs, he would not have "dropped" 15 ppg. So, it's not like Wilt's scoring declined because he was shooting well below his normal FG%'s (unlike KAJ, and MJ, in their greatest scoring seasons.)

And how about Kobe's ppg dropping by nearly 8 ppg in his greatest scoring season, including a game seven of 24 points in a first round playoff series loss of 121-90, and in a series in which his team (along with himself) blew a 3-1 series lead?

[LAZERUSS]

Do FG% next

How about Finals FG%'s? His boy Kobe had the most dramatic decline in Finals FG% to Regular season FG% out of any Top-10 GOAT candidate.


How about Kobe and his regular season FG%, and his Finals' FG%'s...

99-00 .468 -- .367
00-01 .464 -- .415
01-02 .469 -- .514 (oh wait...against the star-studded Nets)
03-04 .438 -- .381
07-08 .459 -- .405
08-09 .467 -- .430
09-10 .456 -- .409

Kobe in the clinching games of those seven Finals...

99-00 -- .296
00-01 -- .389
01-02 -- .438
03-04 -- .333
07-08 -- .318
08-09 -- .435
09-10 -- .250


Consistent. The bigger the game, the worse he shot...

BTW, Wilt ELEVATED his FG% in his six Finals (a .560 FG% as compared to a .540 career FG%.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

That was not the point of your original post, though, was it? Obviously Sam Jones was a far superior clutch playoff performer if you are going by just how much worse, or better, a player performed in the post-season.

Oh, and since you somehow blame Wilt for "only" winning two rings (despite being the best player on the floor in the vast majority of his playoff series), then,...

Jones 10, Kobe 5.

Jones record in his Finals, 10-1. Kobe, 5-2.

Clearly, when it came to actually winning, Jones was the far superior player, as well.

Based on all of that, how can anyone seriously consider Kobe the better player?

BTW, if playoff scoring is the most important aspect in a player's career, then how come players like Baylor, West, Gervin, Iverson, and Dirk aren't ranked ahead of players like Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Kareem, Bird, Russell, and your boy Kobe, in these GOAT lists?
Jones is not in the same class as Kobe though like I already pointed out, never made an All-NBA First team.

Playoff scoring does matter. Take a look at the leaders in playoff points and 30-point playoff games and see how many top 10 GOATs are on there.

Playoff Points
1. Michael Jordan* 5987
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 5762
3. Kobe Bryant 5640
4. Shaquille O'Neal 5250
5. Karl Malone* 4761
6. Tim Duncan 4614
7. Jerry West* 4457
8. Larry Bird* 3897
9. LeBron James 3871
10. John Havlicek* 3776
11. Hakeem Olajuwon* 3755
12. Magic Johnson* 3701
13. Scottie Pippen* 3642
14. Elgin Baylor* 3623
15. Wilt Chamberlain* 3607

30 point games (Playoffs)
Michael Jordan -- 109
Kobe Bryant -- 88
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 75
Jerry West -- 74
Lebron James -- 61
Elgin Baylor -- 60
Shaquille O'Neal -- 55
Karl Malone -- 54
Hakeem Olajuwon -- 53
Rick Barry -- 48
Dirk Nowitzki -- 45
Larry Bird -- 43
Wilt Chamberlain -- 42
Allen Iverson -- 36
Tim Duncan -- 36
Bob Pettit -- 33
George Gervin -- 32
Dwyane Wade -- 32

[LAZERUSS]

Jones is not in the same class as Kobe though like I already pointed out, never made an All-NBA First team.

Playoff scoring does matter. Take a look at the leaders in playoff points and 30-point playoff games and see how many top 10 GOATs are on there.

Playoff Points
1. Michael Jordan* 5987
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 5762
3. Kobe Bryant 5640
4. Shaquille O'Neal 5250
5. Karl Malone* 4761
6. Tim Duncan 4614
7. Jerry West* 4457
8. Larry Bird* 3897
9. LeBron James 3871
10. John Havlicek* 3776
11. Hakeem Olajuwon* 3755
12. Magic Johnson* 3701
13. Scottie Pippen* 3642
14. Elgin Baylor* 3623
15. Wilt Chamberlain* 3607

30 point games (Playoffs)
Michael Jordan -- 109
Kobe Bryant -- 88
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 75
Jerry West -- 74
Lebron James -- 61
Elgin Baylor -- 60
Shaquille O'Neal -- 55
Karl Malone -- 54
Hakeem Olajuwon -- 53
Rick Barry -- 48
Dirk Nowitzki -- 45
Larry Bird -- 43
Wilt Chamberlain -- 42
Allen Iverson -- 36
Tim Duncan -- 36
Bob Pettit -- 33
George Gervin -- 32
Dwyane Wade -- 32

A prime scoring Chamberlain had FOUR 50+ point games in his 52 playoff games coming in those seasons (30 of which were against Russell BTW.)

Incidently, his 56 point game came in a "must-win" game (a win), while MJ's 63 point game came in double OT (and a loss), in which he scored 54 points in regulation.

A prime "scoring" Wilt averaged 33 ppg in his 52 playoff games, and outscored his starting opposing center in 50 of them. And some by staggering margins.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You can add Magic to that list. And, like Wilt, he certainly could have scored much more.

Incidently, in Wilt's 61-62 season, in which he averaged 50 ppg, he took 40 FGAs per game. In that post-season, in which he "only" averaged 35 ppg, he averaged 29 FGAs per game. Clearly, had he taken 40 FGAs per game in the playoffs, he would not have "dropped" 15 ppg. So, it's not like Wilt's scoring declined because he was shooting well below his normal FG%'s (unlike KAJ, and MJ, in their greatest scoring seasons.)

And how about Kobe's ppg dropping by nearly 8 ppg in his greatest scoring season, including a game seven of 24 points in a first round playoff series loss of 121-90, and in a series in which his team (along with himself) blew a 3-1 series lead?
So you cherrypick one season of Kobe's career to find a drop? Career regular season: 25.5, career playoffs: 25.6. How about you tell me what happened to his playoff scoring the next 4 years after '06.

[Deuce Bigalow]

A prime scoring Chamberlain had FOUR 50+ point games in his 52 playoff games coming in those seasons (30 of which were against Russell BTW.)

Incidently, his 56 point game came in a "must-win" game (a win), while MJ's 63 point game came in double OT (and a loss), in which he scored 54 points in regulation.

A prime "scoring" Wilt averaged 33 ppg in his 52 playoff games, and outscored his starting opposing center in 50 of them. And some by staggering margins.
Prime scoring Wilt averaged 40 in the regular season, so his playoff PPG dropped by 7. They don't call him the "Big Dipper" for nothing.

[CavaliersFTW]

Sam Jones is a better winner and playoff performer than Kobe, his highest scoring game was in the playoffs where it counts unlike KoME who is a regular season stats padder.

Replace Kobe with Sam Jones during the Laker Shaq era and not only does Jones 3peat - but Shaq stays in LA and they win even more titles together.

[LAZERUSS]

Prime scoring Wilt averaged 40 in the regular season, so his playoff PPG dropped by 7. They don't call him the "Big Dipper" for nothing.

And in that span, he faced Russell and the swarming Celtics in 30 of his 52 playoff games.

And yes, "only" averaging 33 ppg (on a .505 FG% in post-seasons that shot .426 on average in that span), along with 27 rpg, was a huge "dip" wasn't it.

How many 33+ppg playoff series has Kobe had out of his 17 seasons? And in how many did he outshoot the league average by 8%?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Oh of course. After all, many players have put up 50 ppg and 45 ppg post-seasons. How come Wilt couldn't?
Again, cherrypicking at his finest. Wilt's scoring in the playoffs DROPPED EVERY SINGLE YEAR OF HIS CAREER not just his two highest seasons. How come Wilt couldn't at least have one, just ONE postseason where he brought his scoring up?

[Deuce Bigalow]

And in that span, he faced Russell and the swarming Celtics in 30 of his 52 playoff games.

And yes, "only" averaging 33 ppg (on a .505 FG% in post-seasons that shot .426 on average in that span), along with 27 rpg, was a huge "dip" wasn't it.

How many 33+ppg playoff series has Kobe had out of his 17 seasons? And in how many did he outshoot the league average by 8%?
Kobe played in an era with around 90-100 possessions, Wilt in his scoring prime played in an era with possessions of 120-125 per game. You don't think Kobe would average a couple of more PPG if there were 30 more possessions? Or if Kobe played 48 mpg instead of 40? Please.

BTW, how many of those "33 ppg" postseasons did Wilt win a title? Did Wilt ever lead his championship team in scoring? I know Kobe has twice.

[CavaliersFTW]

Kobe played in an era with around 90-100 possessions, Wilt in his scoring prime played in an era with possessions of 120-125 per game. You don't think Kobe would average a couple of more PPG if there were 30 more possessions? Or if Kobe played 48 mpg instead of 40? Please.
Nope because in Wilt's era Kobe would be sharing the ball with better teammates. Smaller league - greater density of talent. 'roleplayers' in the 60's weren't even roleplayers, they were good all around basketball players and they got more shots, stars averaged the same number of touches. Kobe would put up the same numbers, except on less efficiency and more minutes. Would also have not started his career until the age of 23, and at 34 when he tore his ligaments he'd have to retire. He'd probably be ringless unless he was lucky enough to be on the Willis Reed Knicks team or something (in which case he'd average very very low ppg cause he'd be in a strict system sharing the ball with other superstars). He'd basically be no one you'd care about today. Jerry West and Oscar Robertson would be considered the better guards of that era.

[Deuce Bigalow]

How about Finals FG%'s? His boy Kobe had the most dramatic decline in Finals FG% to Regular season FG% out of any Top-10 GOAT candidate.



BTW, Wilt ELEVATED his FG% in his six Finals (a .560 FG% as compared to a .540 career FG%.)
Oh you don't want to talk about the NBA Finals drops. But you just did :facepalm

Wilt's Regular season PPG: 30.1
Wilt's NBA Finals PPG: 18.6

I'll take a guess and place my bet that that is the biggest drop-off in NBA history.

Meanwhile Kobe's ppg drops down by.... 0.2

[Deuce Bigalow]

Nope because in Wilt's era Kobe would be sharing the ball with better teammates. Smaller league - greater density of talent. 'roleplayers' in the 60's weren't even roleplayers, they were good all around basketball players and they got more shots, stars averaged the same number of touches. Kobe would put up the same numbers, except on less efficiency and more minutes. Would also have not started his career until the age of 23, and at 34 when he tore his ligaments he'd have to retire. He'd probably be ringless unless he was lucky enough to be on the Willis Reed Knicks team or something (in which case he'd average very very low ppg cause he'd be in a strict system sharing the ball with other superstars). He'd basically be no one you'd care about today. Jerry West and Oscar Robertson would be considered the better guards of that era.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Again, cherrypicking at his finest. Wilt's scoring in the playoffs DROPPED EVERY SINGLE YEAR OF HIS CAREER not just his two highest seasons. How come Wilt couldn't at least have one, just ONE postseason where he brought his scoring up?

Yep...a declining Wilt.

Again, facing Russell in his "scoring" seasons...

Regular season against Russell and playoffs against Russell...

59-60. 38 ppg on a .465 FG% Then 31 ppg on a .500 FG%

61-62. 40 ppg on a .471 FG%. Then 34 ppg on a .468 FG%.

63-64. 29 ppg on a .525 FG%. Then 29 ppg on a .517 FG%.

64-65. 25 ppg on a .473 FG%. Then 30 ppg on a .555 FG%.

65-66. 28 ppg on a .525 FG%. Then 28 ppg on a .509 FG%.

Dramatic drop-off.

Oh, and BTW, scoring and FG%'s were down in nearly every one of those post-seasons from their regular season averages.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Sam Jones is a better winner and playoff performer than Kobe, his highest scoring game was in the playoffs where it counts unlike KoME who is a regular season stats padder.

Replace Kobe with Sam Jones during the Laker Shaq era and not only does Jones 3peat - but Shaq stays in LA and they win even more titles together.
Did I Bill Russell your jimmies?

[CavaliersFTW]

And in that span, he faced Russell and the swarming Celtics in 30 of his 52 playoff games.

And yes, "only" averaging 33 ppg (on a .505 FG% in post-seasons that shot .426 on average in that span), along with 27 rpg, was a huge "dip" wasn't it.

How many 33+ppg playoff series has Kobe had out of his 17 seasons? And in how many did he outshoot the league average by 8%?
Kobe outshoot the league? Kobe isn't going to be outshooting anyone, guy has played for like 19 years and only ever got 1 MVP, 6 foot white guys like Steve Nash were winning MVP's over him :oldlol: when all is said and done Kobe's resume when put into context might not even reach top 25 and yes I'm taking into account 'longevity'

1 MVP - that shit is embarrassing, Wilt won his first of four MVPs as a ROOKIE while shattering records and scoring more ppg (both regular season, and playoffs) than Kobe ever did in his entire career, Wilt already trumping Kobe in career accolades by just his rookie season :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Kobe played in an era with around 90-100 possessions, Wilt in his scoring prime played in an era with possessions of 120-125 per game. You don't think Kobe would average a couple of more PPG if there were 30 more possessions? Or if Kobe played 48 mpg instead of 40? Please.

BTW, how many of those "33 ppg" postseasons did Wilt win a title? Did Wilt ever lead his championship team in scoring? I know Kobe has twice.

Did Kobe ever lead his team to the best record in the league while leading the league in scoring, rebounding, and FG%?

Did Kobe ever lead a team to records of 69-13 and 68-13 in his title seasons?

And did Kobe ever lead his team to a title while leading them in assists and rebounding?

And once again, Wilt never had the DRAMATIC drop-off in FG% in his Finals that Kobe did in his. In fact, I can't think of a Top-20 player who has.

Nor has Kobe ever dominated a Finals, even with his "scoring." In fact, he nearly lost one in 2010 with a 6-24 shooting performance in a game seven.

[97 bulls]

Well, good thing Wilt actually played in an era where individual scoring was not viewed as the chief criterion for greatness. Despite his scoring prowess, he played in an era where the ability for big men, especially, to control the paint defensively, rebound, initiate the fast break with quick outlet passes, and facilitate the offense from the post were valued. The ability for a big man to affect the game without dominant scoring in those ways is the reason Russell, Unseld, and a little later, Walton were winning MVPs with 30+ppg scorers in the league despite them never even reaching 20ppg. Heck...it's greatly the reason why Wilt's '67 season where he avg. "only" 24ppg is widely considered to be greater than his '62 season where he avg. 50ppg. It's also why Wilt, Unseld, and Walton could win Finals MVPs without leading their teams in scoring or anybody even caring if their scoring had "increased in the playoffs" or not.

From what I've observed, while high individual scoring has always been praised, this singular obsession with with it as the most important mark of greatness or "raising your game" is a view that gained currency after the MJ generation started determining greatness based on "how MJ played the game" without much prior understanding or at least recognition of how the game had been historically assessed.
Wow. Great post. Just outstanding:bowdown: :applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

Meanwhile Kobe's ppg drops down by.... 0.2
Wilt played in the NBA Finals in 4 out of his last 5 NBA seasons. Kobe can't/won't.

Wilt wins FMVP at age 35 - u think Kobe is gonna win FMVP at that age? Kobe's career is over :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

Kobe outshoot the league? Kobe isn't going to be outshooting anyone, guy has played for like 19 years and only ever got 1 MVP, 6 foot white guys like Steve Nash were winning MVP's over him :oldlol: when all is said and done Kobe's resume when put into context might not even reach top 25 and yes I'm taking into account 'longevity'

1 MVP - that shit is embarrassing, Wilt won his first of four MVPs as a ROOKIE while shattering records and scoring more ppg (both regular season, and playoffs) than Kobe ever did in his entire career, Wilt already trumping Kobe in career accolades by just his rookie season :roll:

And Chamberlain was clearly robbed of MVPs in his '62 and '64 seasons, too.

In fact, Wilt was widely regarded as the best player of the decade of the 60's (and holding a 7-2 edge over Russell in first-team all-NBA selections BTW.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe outshoot the league? Kobe isn't going to be outshooting anyone, guy has played for like 19 years and only ever got 1 MVP, 6 foot white guys like Steve Nash were winning MVP's over him :oldlol: when all is said and done Kobe's resume when put into context might not even reach top 25 and yes I'm taking into account 'longevity'

1 MVP - that shit is embarrassing, Wilt won his first of four MVPs as a ROOKIE while shattering records and scoring more ppg (both regular season, and playoffs) than Kobe ever did in his entire career, Wilt already trumping Kobe in career accolades by just his rookie season :roll:
You don't think players wouldn't have voted Kobe the MVP in 06-08 like players did to all of Wilt's MVPs?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt played in the NBA Finals in 4 out of his last 5 NBA seasons. Kobe can't/won't.

Wilt wins FMVP at age 35 - u think Kobe is gonna win FMVP at that age? Kobe's career is over :oldlol:
And lost 3 out of those 4 :roll:
Kobe already had more rings than Wilt when he was 23, the age Wilt was a rookie :roll:

Now he has 3 more.

[L.Kizzle]

Arenas' drop-off is due to him coming back that one season where he missed all the regular season but like ten game then played in the playoffs. And then the season in Orlando and also in Memphis a few seasons back.

If you really look at it, he's only had 2 REAL playoff runs.

2005 in Washington he averaged a little over 23 a game but the next season, he led the league in playoff PG with to go along with 5 and 5.

:cry:

[LAZERUSS]

And lost 3 out of those 4 :roll:
Kobe already had more rings than Wilt when he was 23, the age Wilt was a rookie :roll:

Now he has 3 more.

Kobe never single-handedly carried 49-31 and 40-40 teams to near upsets of 60-20 and 62-18 eventual championship teams, either.

Nor was Kobe nearly as dominate in the two titles that his team won after Shaq left, that Wilt was in his. And clearly was nowhere the force that Shaq was in his first three.

[LAZERUSS]

You don't think players wouldn't have voted Kobe the MVP in 06-08 like players did to all of Wilt's MVPs?

I doubt it. If Wilt's fellow teammates didn't vote him the MVP in '62 (and again in '64) what makes you think that they would have voted for a far less dominate Kobe, in '06 and '07? BTW, Kobe finished 4th in '06 and third in '07.

[tpols]

It's funny how Chamberlain put up better stats than Russell and was considered better.. Yet in extremely close Finals series and clinching games, Wilt's team lost nearly every damn time.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Russell on record saying stats are meaningless because they only capture the end of a play and not the first 95% of its beginning and Wilt being the opposite chasing records had something to do with this. Russell was about winning and selfless team play among all else. A general who led his army to victory while Wilt tried to see how many headshots he could personally accumulate.

Even when Wilt was leading the league in assists.. He was only doing it to say he led the league in assists. :oldlol: I guess to rectify his selfish image.. People ain't dumb though.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Did Kobe ever lead his team to the best record in the league while leading the league in scoring, rebounding, and FG%?

Did Kobe ever lead a team to records of 69-13 and 68-13 in his title seasons?

And did Kobe ever lead his team to a title while leading them in assists and rebounding?

And once again, Wilt never had the DRAMATIC drop-off in FG% in his Finals that Kobe did in his. In fact, I can't think of a Top-20 player who has.

Nor has Kobe ever dominated a Finals, even with his "scoring." In fact, he nearly lost one in 2010 with a 6-24 shooting performance in a game seven.
Did Wilt ever lead the playoffs in scoring multiple times?

Did Wilt ever lead a championship team in playoff scoring?

Did Wilt ever average 30 ppg in an NBA Finals?

Did Wilt ever win back to back championships?

Kobe's 2009 Finals: 32.4 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 7.4 apg, 1.4 bpg, 1.4 spg on 43/36/84

You're right he didn't dominate an NBA Finals with just his scoring.

[LAZERUSS]

It's funny how Chamberlain put up better stats than Russell and was considered better.. Yet in extremely close Finals series and clinching games, Wilt's team lost nearly every damn time.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Russell on record saying stats are meaningless because they only capture the end of a play and not the first 95% of its beginning and Wilt being the opposite chasing records had something to do with this. Russell was about winning and selfless team play among all else. A general who led his army to victory while Wilt tried to see how many headshots he could personally accumulate.

Even when Wilt was leading the league in assists.. He was only doing it to say he led the league in assists. :oldlol: I guess to rectify his selfish image.. People ain't dumb though.

Chamberlain outplayed Russell in nearly every facet of the game in the majority of their H2H's, and often with putrid rosters that performed worse in the post-season. He nearly beat Russell on FOUR occasions, losing game seven's by 2, 1, 4, and 2 points, and with Russell's teammates badly outplaying his own.

As for leading the league in assists,...he also led his team to a runaway best record in the league that season. And most certainly would have duplicated their title from the previous season, had his team not been decimated by injuries in the post-season (including multiple injuries to himself.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

I doubt it. If Wilt's fellow teammates didn't vote him the MVP in '62 (and again in '64) what makes you think that they would have voted for a far less dominate Kobe, in '06 and '07? BTW, Kobe finished 4th in '06 and third in '07.
That is because Russell was the best player of his era. Kobe was the best player in his, but players were not voting then. Chauncey Billups nearly got more votes than Kobe in 06....good job voters :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

That is because Russell was the best player of his era. Kobe was the best player in his, but players were not voting then. Chauncey Billups nearly got more votes than Kobe in '07...good job voters :applause:

Hmmm...Wilt held a 7-2 first-team All-NBA edge over Russell in the entire decade of the 60's.

Chamberlain won an MVP in his rookie season, and was already considered the best player in the game at that point. And by the mid-60's to the late 60's he was running away with MVP awards.

And how about Kerr beating Wilt out in the MVP voting in '63, when Chamberlain outscored him H2H, per game, by a 43 ppg to 19 ppg margin, including games by margins of 61-20 and 70-14? Oh, and in that same voting, Terry Dischinger received more first place votes than Wilt despite playing on a 25-55 team that had Walt Bellamy as their best player?

[tpols]

Was Wilt relied on too much as an individual player to the point he never really developed team skills? Shit my grandfather who grew up in philly was over for Thanksgiving talking about how he remembered when Wilt's team at Overbrook HS lost in the playoffs because the other team put 4 guys on Wilt and 1 to roam on everybody else. How the hell do you manage to lose that game? Really wish I could see what happened.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Hmmm...Wilt held a 7-2 first-team All-NBA edge over Russell in the entire decade of the 60's.

Chamberlain won an MVP in his rookie season, and was already considered the best player in the game at that point. And by the mid-60's to the late 60's he was running away with MVP awards.

And how about Kerr beating Wilt out in the MVP voting in '63, when Chamberlain outscored him H2H, per game, by a 43 ppg to 19 ppg margin, including games by margins of 61-20 and 70-14? Oh, and in that same voting, Terry Dischinger received more first place votes than Wilt despite playing on a 25-55 team that had Walt Bellamy as their best player?
All-NBA teams are based solely on regular season. Yes Wilt was the better regular season player than Russell, and just about anyone in history. But when postseason came, Wilt declined, Russell improved. Russell had a 9-1 edge on championships while both were in the league.

[LAZERUSS]

Was Wilt relied on too much as an individual player to the point he never really developed team skills? Shit my grandfather who grew up in philly was over for Thanksgiving talking about how he remembered when Wilt's team at Overbrook HS lost in the playoffs because the other team put 4 guys on Wilt and 1 to roam on everybody else. How the hell do you manage to lose that game? Really wish I could see what happened.

Well, your grandfather must be recalling Wilt's soph season in HS.


As a player for the Overbrook Panthers, Chamberlain averaged 31 points a game during the 1953 high school season and led his team to a 71–62 win against the Northeast High School of his future NBA teammate Guy Rodgers. He scored 34 points, won Overbrook the Public League title and a berth for the Philadelphia city championship game against the winner of the rival Catholic league, West Catholic.[17] In that game, West Catholic triple-teamed Chamberlain the entire game, and despite the center's 29 points, the Panthers lost 54–42.[17]

In his second Overbrook season, Chamberlain continued his prolific scoring, among them scoring a high school record 71 points against Roxborough.[18] The Panthers comfortably won the Public League title after again beating Northeast in which Chamberlain scored 40 points, and later won the city title by defeating South Catholic 74–50. Chamberlain scored 32 points and had led Overbrook to a flawless 19–0 season.[18]

During summer vacations Chamberlain worked as a bellhop in Kutsher's Hotel. Subsequently, owners Milton and Helen Kutsher kept up a lifelong friendship with Wilt, and according to their son Mark, "They were his second set of parents."[19] Red Auerbach, the coach of the Boston Celtics, spotted the talented teenager at Kutscher's and had him play 1-on-1 against Kansas University standout and national champion, B. H. Born, elected the Most Valuable Player of the 1953 NCAA Finals. Chamberlain won 25–10; Born was so dejected that he gave up a promising NBA career and became a tractor engineer ("If there were high school kids that good, I figured I wasn't going to make it to the pros"),[20] and Auerbach wanted Chamberlain to go to a New England university, so he could draft him as a territorial pick for the Celtics, but Chamberlain did not respond.[20]

In Chamberlain's third and final Overbrook season, he continued his high scoring, once logging 74, 78 and 90 points in three consecutive games.[21] The Panthers won the Public League a third time, beating West Philadelphia 78–60, and in the city championship game, they met West Catholic once again. Scoring 35 points, Chamberlain led Overbrook to an easy 83–42 victory.[21] After three years, Chamberlain had led Overbrook to two city championships, logged a 56–3 record and had broken Tom Gola's high school scoring record by scoring 2,252 points, averaging 37.4 points per game.[2][4][22]

After his last Overbrook season, over 200 universities wanted to recruit the basketball prodigy.[3] Among others, UCLA offered Chamberlain the opportunity to become a movie star, the University of Pennsylvania wanted to buy him diamonds, and Chamberlain's Panthers coach Mosenson was even offered a coaching position if he could persuade the center.[23] Cherry has described that Chamberlain wanted a change and therefore did not want to go to or near Philadelphia (also eliminating New York), was not interested in New England, and snubbed the South because of segregation; leaving the Midwest.[23] In the end, after visiting the University of Kansas, also commonly known as KU, with renowned college coach Phog Allen, Chamberlain then proclaimed he was going to play college basketball at KU

[LAZERUSS]

All-NBA teams are based solely on regular season. Yes Wilt was the better regular season player than Russell, and just about anyone in history. But when postseason came, Wilt declined, Russell improved. Russell had a 9-1 edge on championships while both were in the league.

And yet Russell, with far superior teams, and much more clutch players, was outplayed in every H2H series with Wilt, and badly outplayed in several.

John Wooden said it best. Had Wilt had Russell's surrounding rosters, and Auerbach as his coach, he would have won all those rings.

BTW, Russell's FG%'s against Wilt dropped FAR more in their post-season H2H's, than Wilt's did against him.

Furthermore, had Wilt's teammates been able to score nine more points in four of those playoff H2H's, and judging by what Russell did in his Finals against the Lakers in those years, and Wilt likely would have set Finals scoring and FG% marks that would stand today.

[Deuce Bigalow]

And yet Russell, with far superior teams, and much more clutch players, was outplayed in every H2H series with Wilt, and badly outplayed in several.

John Wooden said it best. Had Wilt had Russell's surrounding rosters, and Auerbach as his coach, he would have won all those rings.
John Wooden also called Kobe the GOAT. Wilt was not the team player that Russell was so how would that even be possible? And for the last time, Russell was not a stats guy, so he didn't actually outplay Russell because of better stats.

[LAZERUSS]

John Wooden also called Kobe the GOAT. Wilt was not the team player that Russell was so how would that even be possible? And for the last time, Russell was not a stats guy, so he didn't actually outplay Russell because of better stats.

No. He simply outplayed Russell...period.

And explain this to me...

In Wilt's clinching game five loss to Boston in the 65-66 EDF's, Wilt hung a 46-34 game on Russell.

In the very next season, and with Russell facing the same exact situation (down 3-1), how did Russell respond? He scored FOUR points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists. In the meantime, Chamberlain poured in 29 points, 22 of which came in the first half when the game was close, on 10-16 shooting, with 13 assists, seven blocks, and 36 rebounds. Where was Russell's 46-34 game, when his teammates so desperately needed it?

[Deuce Bigalow]

No. He simply outplayed Russell...period.

And explain this to me...

In Wilt's clinching game five loss to Boston in the 65-66 EDF's, Wilt hung a 46-34 game on Russell.

In the very next season, and with Russell facing the same exact situation (down 3-1), how did Russell respond? He scored FOUR points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists. In the meantime, Chamberlain poured in 29 points, 22 of which came in the first half when the game was close, on 10-16 shooting, with 13 assists, seven blocks, and 36 rebounds. Where was Russell's 46-34 game, when his teammates so desperately needed it?
It's shameful as you go back and say things like Wilt "outplayed" Kareem when Kareem had better stats. You damn well known that Russell wasn't your 40-point game scorer.

[LAZERUSS]

It's shameful as you go back and say things like Wilt "outplayed" Kareem when Kareem had better stats. You damn well known that Russell wasn't your 40-point game scorer.

In the ONE playoff series in which a PEAK KAJ put up better stats, his defending champion Bucks (66-16 in '71), went 63-19. And in that series, a way-past his prime Chamberlain held KAJ to .457 shooting, and in fact, a .414 FG% over the course of the last four games, three of them Laker wins.

Russell had FAR better supporting casts when Chamberlain was wiping the floor with him. And Kareem's rosters were every bit as talented as Wilt's.

And once again, how about Russell's offense against Wilt in the post-season, and then against the Lakers in the Finals?



61-62. Against Wilt, 22.0 ppg on a .399 FG%. Against the Lakers, 22.9 ppg on a .543 FG%.

64-65. Against Wilt, 15.6 ppg on a .447 FG%. Against the Lakers in the Finals, 18.0 ppg on a .702 FG%.

65-66. Against Wilt, 14.0 ppg on a .451 FG%. Against LA... 23.6 ppg on a .538 FG%.

And how about Wilt's numbers in those playoff series against Russell? 33.6 ppg on .468 in 61-62. Then 30.1 ppg on a .555 in 64-65. And then 28.0 ppg on a .509 in 65-66.

[Deuce Bigalow]

In the ONE playoff series in which KAJ put up better stats, his defending champion Bucks (66-16 in '71), went 63-19. And in that series, Chamberlain held KAJ to .457 shooting, and in fact, a .414 FG% over the course of the last four games, three of them Laker wins.

Russell had FAR better supporting casts when Chamberlain was wiping the floor with him. And Kareem's rosters were every bit as talented as Wilt's.
Did Russell really have a better supporting cast in '69? They won only 48 games in the regular season and it was Russell's and Jones's last season of their career. Meanwhile Wilt had the best player in the league and the Lakers had a much better record in the regular season giving them home court. And don't you say West wasn't the best player in the league, or do I have to copy/paste his Finals stats?

[LAZERUSS]

Did Russell really have a better supporting cast in '69? They won only 48 games in the regular season and it was Russell's and Jones's last season of their career. Meanwhile Wilt had the best player in the league and the Lakers had a much better record in the regular season giving them home court. And don't you say West wasn't the best player in the league, or do I have to copy/paste his Finals stats?

West was NOT the best player in the league, and NEVER was. Neither he, nor even Wilt, finished in the Top-5 in the MVP voting in '69. Furthermore, Unseld, Reed, and Russell did finish ahead of Wilt, and yet Chamberlain badly outplayed all three in their 18 combined seasonal H2H's, and collectively held a 12-6 record against them in doing so.

West played brilliantly in the Finals, so what? Baylor had one of the worst playoff series by a star player in NBA history; Chamberlain outplayed Russell in the series, particularly in game seven; Havicek nearly matched West's scoring (and West was his primary defender); Boston's 3-7 players just blasted LA's 3-7; and Wilt's coach plainly cost the Lakers the series. Oh, and in that seventh game, Chamberlain scored 18 points on an .875 FG%, and his teammates, including West, collectively shot .360 from the floor...in a two point loss. So don't bring up Wilt's FT shooting, either.

And of course, that was Wilt's worst post-season and Finals in his entire career, and he STILL easily outplayed Russell.

[Deuce Bigalow]

West was NOT the best player in the league, and NEVER was. Neither he, nor even Wilt, finished in the Top-5 in the MVP voting in '69. Furthermore, Unseld, Reed, and Russell did finish ahead of Wilt, and yet Chamberlain badly outplayed all three in their 18 combined seasonal H2H's, and collectively held a 12-6 record against them in doing so.

West played brilliantly in the Finals, so what? Baylor had one of the worst playoff series by a star player in NBA history; Chamberlain outplayed Russell in the series, particularly in game seven; Havicek nearly matched West's scoring (and West was his primary defender); Boston's 3-7 players just blasted LA's 3-7; and Wilt's coach plainly cost the Lakers the series. Oh, and in that seventh game, Chamberlain scored 18 points on an .875 FG%, and his teammates, including West, collectively shot .360 from the floor...in a two point loss. So don't bring up Wilt's FT shooting, either.

And of course, that was Wilt's worst post-season and Finals in his entire career, and he STILL easily outplayed Russell.
Yes, yes he was. West was injured and missed 21 games so that has to do with why he wasn't high in MVP voting. And winning the MVP doesn't mean best player anyways. No one was better than West in the Playoffs and Finals. Very similar to Shaq in 01 & 02.

Wilt's finals was awful. He declined like always.
69 Regular season: 20.5 ppg, 44.6%FT
69 Finals: 11.7 ppg, 36.4%FT

The only bigger decline in terms of ppg from regular season to finals was Lebron's 2011 Finals, beating out Wilt by 0.1 ppg.

[LAZERUSS]

Yes, yes he was. West was injured and missed 21 games so that has to do with why he wasn't high in MVP voting. And winning the MVP doesn't mean best player anyways. No one was better than West in the Playoffs and Finals. Very similar to Shaq in 01 & 02.

Wilt's finals was awful. He declined like always.
69 Regular season: 20.5 ppg, 44.6%FT
69 Finals: 11.7 ppg, 36.4%FT

The only bigger decline in terms of ppg from regular season to finals was Lebron's 2011 Finals, beating out Wilt by 0.1 ppg.

A couple of points here...

The MVP award (supposedly) goes to the best Regular season player. And, if you take Wilt's H2H's, and TEAM W-L records against the players that finished above him (well, we don't know where Wilt, or West for that matter, finished in the MVP balloting)...and Wilt just wiped the floor with Reed, Russell, and Unseld. Six H2H games against each, and he dominated them. Furthermore, only Unseld's Bullets had an equal record (3-3), while Wilt's Lakers slapped Russell's Celtics, 4-2 (including a 108-73 nationally televised beatdown in Boston); and trashed Reed's Knicks, 5-1.

Incidently, just like the 67-68 season, when West missed 31 games, and when LA went 19-12 without him....they went 12-9 in the 21 games he missed in the 68-69 season.

And I have pretty much agreed with you about Wilt's 68-69 Finals. It was the worst Finals of his career. Still, he outplayed Russell (and as always outrebounded and badly outshot him from the field), and while West was clearly the Lakers best player in that series, to blame Wilt is ludicris. Chamberlain shot .500 from the field, and led both teams, by a solid margin, in rebounding.

In any case, that was one of the few post-season series in Chamberlain's post-season career, in which he was not the best player on the floor. I won't give West, Reed, or Frazier the nod in the 69-70 Finals. Wilt, on one leg, put up a 23 ppg, 24 rpg, .625 FG% series, and was LA's best player in games six and seven. Furthermore, while West led both teams in scoring, he was the primary defender on Frazier, and Walt just blew West away in that game seven.

Most every observer claimed that Chamberlain outplayed KAJ in the '71 WCF's...and statistically, he did. And in the '72 WCF's, while Kareem badly outscored Wilt, Chamberlain outrebounded him, and held him to just an atrocious FG% in the series, and particularly in the last four games of that series (a staggering .414 FG%...and was knocking KAJ's shots all over the gym.) Even if I were to give KAJ that series, and virtually everyone who witnessed that series claimed Wilt outplayed him.

And West was probably the Lakers best player in every round of the '69 playoffs, although Wilt dominated the Warriors defensively (and outshot Thurmond by a .500 to .392 margin from the field, while outrebounding him by four per game.)

And even though Reed won the FMVP in '73, Wilt outplayed him. Someone had to win the award, and they weren't going to give to a player whose team only went 1-4 (although all four Laker losses were in the last minute.)

And Chamberlain was the best player on the floor in every series he played as a Warrior, and as a Sixer...plain-and-simple. Russell was never better. Not even close. Some might argue Havlicek in the '68 EDF's, but he barely outscored Chamberlain in that series, and Wilt was every bit the passer, and much more dominant on the glass...all while playing with multiple injuries (including a similar one to Reed's in '70.)


As for West not winning the MVP in '69, as being the same as Shaq in '01 and '02. Once again, the MVP award is based on regular season performance. I will agree with Shaq being the best player in the league in both of those years, but injuries hurt his cause. Perhaps West might gave won it with a full season, but we will never know.

In any case, while you constantly bring up Wilt's '69 (and to a lessor extent his '70 Finals...in which an injured Wilt WAS the best player on the floor)...you avoid Wilt in his '60, '61, '62, '64, '65, '66, '67, and even '68. No one in their right mind can blame Wilt for any of those series' losses. He was, by-far-and-away, the best player on the floor in those post-seasons. Had he had Russell's rosters (and Auerbach), he likely would have swept the rings in those seasons.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

That is because Russell was the best player of his era. Kobe was the best player in his, but players were not voting then. Chauncey Billups nearly got more votes than Kobe in 06....good job voters :applause:
Define Era.

[branslowski]

Nope because in Wilt's era Kobe would be sharing the ball with better teammates. Smaller league - greater density of talent. 'roleplayers' in the 60's weren't even roleplayers, they were good all around basketball players and they got more shots, stars averaged the same number of touches. Kobe would put up the same numbers, except on less efficiency and more minutes. Would also have not started his career until the age of 23, and at 34 when he tore his ligaments he'd have to retire. He'd probably be ringless unless he was lucky enough to be on the Willis Reed Knicks team or something (in which case he'd average very very low ppg cause he'd be in a strict system sharing the ball with other superstars). He'd basically be no one you'd care about today. Jerry West and Oscar Robertson would be considered the better guards of that era.

So with 30+ more possessions Kobe magically wouldn't score more? He wouldn't be able to do what West did?:biggums:

[branslowski]

Kobe outshoot the league? Kobe isn't going to be outshooting anyone, guy has played for like 19 years and only ever got 1 MVP, 6 foot white guys like Steve Nash were winning MVP's over him :oldlol: when all is said and done Kobe's resume when put into context might not even reach top 25 and yes I'm taking into account 'longevity'

1 MVP - that shit is embarrassing, Wilt won his first of four MVPs as a ROOKIE while shattering records and scoring more ppg (both regular season, and playoffs) than Kobe ever did in his entire career, Wilt already trumping Kobe in career accolades by just his rookie season :roll:

Shaq has 1 MVP, so he not top 25 either?:biggums:

N!gga is you drinkin tonight?....:coleman:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Define Era.
10-15 years basically. Some would say Duncan, but I think most would agree with Kobe, just like most would agree with Russell being the best of his era and some might say Wilt.

[branslowski]

Wilt played in the NBA Finals in 4 out of his last 5 NBA seasons. Kobe can't/won't.

Wilt wins FMVP at age 35 - u think Kobe is gonna win FMVP at that age? Kobe's career is over :oldlol:

Wilt 2 Titles 1 Finals MVP.....Kobe 5 titles 2 Finals MVPs.:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

So with 30+ more possessions Kobe magically wouldn't score more? He wouldn't be able to do what West did?:biggums:

West averaged 22.6 FGAs on an eFG% of .469, in leagues that had a post-season average of about .445. Kobe has averaged 20.5 FGAs on an eFG% of .480, and in post-seasons that shot about .475, on average. Incidently, MJ averaged 25.1 FGAs, and had an eFG% of .487, in leagues that averaged about .490 during his post-season career. BTW, Chamberlain averaged 17.1 FGAs in his post-season career, and shot .522, in leagues that shot an eFG% of about .440.

You can see where this going...

You simply HAVE to account for LEAGUE AVERAGES. If the "paceologists" are going to hold "pace" against players from the 60's, then they also have to adjust for eFG%'s.

Granted, typically the more a player shoots, the less efficient they become. Still, West averaged 2.1 more FGAs than Kobe, in a faster paced era, and MJ averaged a full 2.0 more FGAs than West, in a slightly lower-paced, BUT, a far more efficient era.

How come the "gunner" West took less shots than MJ, despite Jordan playing in a slightly slower paced era? And how come Kobe, in an even slower paced era, only took a couple of FGAs per game less?

In West's highest post-season, he averaged 31.9 FGAs, on an eFG% of .442, in a post-season NBA that averaged 96.9 FGAs per game, and shot an eFG% of .429. Jordan was able to 31.7 FGAs at his peak (albeit, it was only 3 playoff games), and had an eFG% of .511, in a post-season NBA that averaged 83.5 FGAs, and shot .497.

Adjust MJ's '86 post-season, when he averaged 43.7 ppg (again, in only 3 games), to West's '65 playoffs, and Jordan would have averaged 36.8 FGAs, BUT, would have only shot .441 from the floor. Still, he would have averaged 44.9 ppg (or more actually, since his FTAs would have risen, as well.) But here again, on nearly 5 more FGAs. As you can see, MJ was more of a "gunner" in '86, than West was in his 40.6 ppg playoff season.

Kobe's highest FGA playoff season came in 08-09, when he averaged 26.8 FGAs, and he had a post-season eFG% of .492, in a post-season NBA that averaged 74.6 FGAs, and shot .496. Adjust Kobe's numbers to '65 levels, and he would have taken 34.8 FGAs, but he would only have shot .426 from the field.

You would also have to make adjustments to their FTAs, as well. For example, in '65, the NBA averaged 35.2 FTAs per game. In '86 it was at 28.7. And in '09 it was 25.5.

In any case, instead of using "pace", how about "ball domination?" MJ and Kobe both dominated the ball more, at their peak, than West did, at his. Overall, though, West's career post-season ppg was more efficient than either MJ's or Kobe's, despite shooting a lower FG%.

As a sidenote, and once again, Chamberlain averaged 22.5 ppg, on 17.1 FGAs, and had an eFG% of .522...in leagues that shot about .440. And in his regular season career, he averaged 30.1 ppg, on an eFG% of .540, in leagues that shot an average of about .440, as well.

As you can see, his post-season "decline" was not because of poor shooting, but simply LESS shooting. And, it is really skewed by the fact that, in his scoring prime, from '60 thru '66, he only played in 52 playoff games (and he missed the playoffs in his '63 season, when he averaged 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%.) From '67 thru his last playoff game in '73, he played in 108 playoff games. Or about double what he did in his scoring prime. And the fact of the matter was, early in his career, in his scoring prime, he battled Russell, and the Celtic dynasty, in 30 of those 52 games.

And let's put that "Russell-factor" into perspective, shall we. In his scoring prime, he faced Russell in the '60, '62, '64, '65, and '66 playoffs.

Here were Wilt's regular season, and post-season numbers against Russell in those five h2h seasons:

'60 regular season. Wilt averaged 38 ppg on a .465 FG% against Russell.
'60 EDF's. Chamberlain averaged 30.5 ppg on a .500 FG% against Russell.

'62 regular season. 39.7 ppg on a .471 FG%.
'62 EDF's. 33.6 ppg on a .468 FG%.

'64 regular season. 29.1 ppg on a .508 FG%.
'64 Finals. 29.2 ppg on a .517 FG%.

'65 regular season. 25.3 ppg on a .473 FG%.
'65 EDF's. 30.1 ppg on a .555 FG%.

'66 regular season. 28.3 ppg on a .525 FG% (estimated)
'66 EDF's. 28.0 ppg on a .509 FG%.

And, then how about these numbers.

'60 regular season. The NBA averaged 115.3 ppg on a .410 eFG%.
'60 playoffs. The NBA averaged 109.1 ppg on a .402 eFG%.

'62 regular season. 118.8 ppg on a .426 FG%.
'62 post-season. 112.6 ppg on a .411 FG%.

'64 regular season. 111.0 ppg on a .433 eFG%.
'64 post-season. 105.8 ppg on a .420 eFG%.

'65 regular season. 110.6 ppg on a .426 FG%.
'65 playoffs. 113.7 ppg on a .429 eFG%.

'66 regular season. 115.5 ppg on a .433 eFG%.
'66 playoffs. 113.6 ppg on a .440 eFG%.

As you can gather from the above. Chamberlain's numbers SHOULD have dropped some in his post-seasons. The post-season ppg and eFG%'s typically declined.


Given all of the above, and Wilt's post-season "decline" was not nearly as dramatic as the "Wilt-bashers" would make it out to be.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt 2 Titles 1 Finals MVP.....Kobe 5 titles 2 Finals MVPs.:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

Did Kobe win all those rings by himself? And conversely, was it Wilt's fault that he "only' won two?

And, BTW, Chamberlain would have won a UNANIMOUS FMVP in '67 had the award existed.

[LAZERUSS]

Prime scoring Wilt averaged 40 in the regular season, so his playoff PPG dropped by 7. They don't call him the "Big Dipper" for nothing.

A prime scoring Chamberlain averaged 31.4 FGAs per game in those seven regular seasons.

A prime scoring Wilt averaged 26.1 FGAs in his six post-seasons (and again, his team was so awful that he missed the playoffs in a season in which he averaged 45 ppg on a .528 FG%.)

Adjust Wilt's FGAs, and his "decline" is only from 40 to 38. And give him his '63 post-season, and he probably ups that another couple of points.