OKC needs to get on the Phone with Orlando right now for Aaron afflalo

[I.R.Beast]

a pick and a player should do the trick...

[outbreak]

sefalosha, first rounder and if orlando can swing it jeremy lamb.

Alot of teams should be on the phone for him already, he doesn't really factor into our future and teams know that hennigan wants youth and draft picks even if their late

[Fudge]

I'd do Thabo, PJ3, and Dallas pick for him.

[GOBB]

Does he play as good as he does there tho? He played in Denver and he was just a solid player. More known as a perimeter defender. Is he going to get enough touches to be effective?

[outbreak]

Does he play as good as he does there tho? He played in Denver and he was just a solid player. More known as a perimeter defender. Is he going to get enough touches to be effective?

he's still a solid 3 point shooter and a great perimeter defender. He has greatly improved his facilitating and his off ball movement too.

[I.R.Beast]

Does he play as good as he does there tho? He played in Denver and he was just a solid player. More known as a perimeter defender. Is he going to get enough touches to be effective?
He's improved everything he does since then...ball handling passing everything...

[Le Shaqtus]

Lamb or bust.

[Xiao Yao You]

I'd do Thabo, PJ3, and Dallas pick for him.

Doubt that works does it? Affalo is getting paid a lot of money.

[Meticode]

Orl gets: Lamb + Jones + Pick
OKC gets : Afflalo

Loser?: OKC

Why?: They still have Kendrick Perkins on their roster.

[Jameerthefear]

1st round pick for him at least. I don't want to trade him though.

[Meticode]

Doubt that works does it? Affalo is getting paid a lot of money.
$7.5 million. The trade is very do-able between each team. I think if they did it though, OCK would definitely have to let Lamb go.

[Meticode]

1st round pick for him at least. I don't want to trade him though.
I know what you mean. He's sort of an in-between guy right now where Orlando is rebuilding and it's be fine if he was part of the process or if you got pieces from trading him. I'd trade him to OCK, but they'd have to offer Jones + Lamb at LEAST.

[andremiller07]

Try get a package from Orlando by using Ibaka as bait, even thought Afflalo is worth more straight up and on a smaller contract they can maybe trick them into beleiving Ibaka's potential.

[SpecialQue]

No they don't.

[outbreak]

Doubt that works does it? Affalo is getting paid a lot of money.
pretty sure thabo +lamb makes it close enough

[Meticode]

pretty sure thabo and afflalo are close in salary
Thabo is getting paid almost half of what Afflalo is.

[Jameerthefear]

I know what you mean. He's sort of an in-between guy right now where Orlando is rebuilding and it's be fine if he was part of the process or if you got pieces from trading him. I'd trade him to OCK, but they'd have to offer Jones + Lamb at LEAST.
Yeah it's not he like steals shots. He works off the ball really well. He works well with Oladipo too, so I like that combo.

[outbreak]

Try get a package from Orlando by using Ibaka as bait, even thought Afflalo is worth more straight up and on a smaller contract they can maybe trick them into beleiving Ibaka's potential.

orlando won't want ibaka, hennigan wants picks and rookie contracts as he's planning long term. Ibaka would just give us another afflalo situation where we have too many veterans and not enough minutes for the young guys. We already have Big Baby who needs to be moved as well

[outbreak]

Thabo is getting paid almost half of what Afflalo is.

my bad I've edited my post, I knew the trade worked financially but I thought lamb was making less than he is so assumed thabos was higher.

[Jameerthefear]

Thabo is getting paid almost half of what Afflalo is.
AA is a much better player than Thabo. ORL wants a 1st and Lamb or nothing. I guarantee.

[Meticode]

Cavs gets: Afflalo
Orl gets: Waiters, Bennett

[outbreak]

Cavs gets: Afflalo
Orl gets: Waiters, Bennett

Done

[Jameerthefear]

Cavs gets: Afflalo
Orl gets: Waiters, Bennett
Orlando says: fvck off.

[outbreak]

Orlando says: fvck off.

Bennet has some talent man, he won't stay this bad his whole career. Waiters will be a solid 6th man and is as good as anything we'd likely get in a trade that gives us a low first rounder

[Meticode]

Done
I'd do it. Cavs get a player who is a vet, knows how to play defense, and doesn't need to dominate the ball and can run off screen. Orland gets young talent, Waiters has potential, you've seen it since he's been coming off the bench.

Bennett obviously needs to adjust to the game. He's 20 years old.

[outbreak]

I'd do it. Cavs get a player who is a vet, knows how to play defense, and doesn't need to dominate the ball and can run off screen. Orland gets young talent, Waiters has potential, you've seen it since he's been coming off the bench.

Bennett obviously needs to adjust to the game. He's 20 years old.
I think it's decent too, a lot won't based on the struggles bennet and waiters have been having but if we deal afflalo for a late first rounder anyway bennet and waiters will be better than someone in that range, although who knows with hennigan as he has nicholson, harris, o'quinn, moore, vucevic as guys who weren't too highly rated or getting big minutes who look like they can contribute

[ballup]

Don't see it happening. Magic would want Lamb or an additional draft pick along with Thabo and the Mav pick.

[Jameerthefear]

Bennet has some talent man, he won't stay this bad his whole career. Waiters will be a solid 6th man and is as good as anything we'd likely get in a trade that gives us a low first rounder
Bennet is awful. I don't want to trade away a good player for shit. Waiters has a potential, but it's stops with that. Potential.

[outbreak]

Bennet is awful. I don't want to trade away a good player for shit. Waiters has a potential, but it's stops with that. Potential.
we may be able to get better value but I don't think it's a terrible move.

going to have to disagree on Bennet, I think he is far from a number one pick but i do think he has some talent and will eventually turn into a serviceable player.

[EnoughSaid]

Lamb, Perkins, Jones, picks for Afflalo and Vucevic. :bowdown:

[outbreak]

Lamb, Perkins, Jones, picks for Afflalo and Vucevic. :bowdown:

Durant and 2 first rounders for afflalo and big baby :bowdown:

[Jameerthefear]

Lamb, Perkins, Jones, picks for Afflalo and Vucevic. :bowdown:
lol orlando says no so quick

[Jameerthefear]

also outbreak i'm just scared of a bad trade tbh. i feel like afflalo's worth is pretty high right now especially to someone like the thunder.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Cavs gets: Afflalo
Orl gets: Waiters, Bennett

Really? That's a heck of a win now move for a roster that can't win it all right now. Even if you don't highly of Waiters (I don't) and think Bennett is probably a bust (too early), I'm not sure I would make that deal from a Cavs stand point.

[Marchesk]

Really? That's a heck of a win now move for a roster that can't win it all right now. Even if you don't highly of Waiters (I don't) and think Bennett is probably a bust (too early), I'm not sure I would make that deal from a Cavs stand point.

You also don't want to scare away Lebron this offseason with too many crazy moves. He's already a bit iffy with that Bennett pick.

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

no we're good. We are about building our own young stars.

[Fudge]

K I'm being serious here... Check it bruhs.

Jeremy Lamb, Thabo Sefolosha, Steven Adams, Kendrick Perkins, Dallas pick

for

Arron Afflalo, Nikola Vucevic

Who says no? We could also take a filler, like Big Baby or some shit.

[russwest0]

Not giving up Lamb for Afflalo

[gyu]

K I'm being serious here... Check it bruhs.

Jeremy Lamb, Thabo Sefolosha, Steven Adams, Kendrick Perkins, Dallas pick

for

Arron Afflalo, Nikola Vucevic

Who says no? We could also take a filler, like Big Baby or some shit.
Replace Thabo for Reggie Jackson, still iffy....

[KG215]

Try get a package from Orlando by using Ibaka as bait, even thought Afflalo is worth more straight up and on a smaller contract they can maybe trick them into beleiving Ibaka's potential.
Hell. No.

Not unless OKC is getting another capable big in return. Losing, say, Ibaka and a pick or Ibaka and Lamb for Afflalo would do nothing to make OKC better. Ibaka means a lot more to OKC this year than ever before. He's turned into a capable 3rd scoring option while also being a damn good defender. I don't care how good Afflalo's defense is for a guard, he comes nowhere close to impacting a game defensively as much as Ibaka.

[Jameerthefear]

K I'm being serious here... Check it bruhs.

Jeremy Lamb, Thabo Sefolosha, Steven Adams, Kendrick Perkins, Dallas pick

for

Arron Afflalo, Nikola Vucevic

Who says no? We could also take a filler, like Big Baby or some shit.
Orlando not only says no. They run away and slap your mother. Fvck no.
Afflalo is a much better player than everyone involved in that trade. Then you add in Vucevic? Hell no.

[BlackVVaves]

I know what you mean. He's sort of an in-between guy right now where Orlando is rebuilding and it's be fine if he was part of the process or if you got pieces from trading him. I'd trade him to OCK, but they'd have to offer Jones + Lamb at LEAST.

Two prospects for a role player putting up great stats as the main plug on a lottery team?

Really?

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

I would not give up Lamb and Adamas for even Vucevic. Affalo is a solid player but he plays for a terrible team.

[I.R.Beast]

I would not give up Lamb and Adamas for even Vucevic. Affalo is a solid player but he plays for a terrible team.
him playing for a terrible team doesnt mean he isnt good...smh

[Jameerthefear]

I would not give up Lamb and Adamas for even Vucevic. Affalo is a solid player but he plays for a terrible team.
Then you're not a smart person lol. Vucevic is so much better than both those players.

[Fudge]

Orlando not only says no. They run away and slap your mother. Fvck no.
Afflalo is a much better player than everyone involved in that trade. Then you add in Vucevic? Hell no.
You clearly don't watch OKC games. These aren't bench scrubs and DL players I'm just throwing in, they're legit rotational players on the team. Significant ones at that. Steven Adams would replace Vucevic as your starting C, who is 3 years younger, not as good, but has the potential to be. Lamb is a god. Hell, to sweeten the deal up we could toss is Pj3 as well. If it still doesn't intrigue you then you are the biggest ****** on this forum.

[Marchesk]

Then you're not a smart person lol. Vucevic is so much better than both those players.

Is that true in two years?

[BlazerRed]

You clearly don't watch OKC games. These aren't bench scrubs and DL players I'm just throwing in, they're legit rotational players on the team. Significant ones at that. Steven Adams would replace Vucevic as your starting C, who is 3 years younger, not as good, but has the potential to be. Lamb is a god. Hell, to sweeten the deal up we could toss is Pj3 as well. If it still doesn't intrigue you then you are the biggest ****** on this forum.
I really like OKC, they're my second favorite team, but I agree with Jameer. Orlando has the two best players in that trade. It would be insanely good for OKC if that could get the big V and Afflalo though.

[Fudge]

AND If it makes you feel better, we'll take in Scrubmeer in as a filler...so your boy can finally have a chance at a ring.

[Jameerthefear]

You clearly don't watch OKC games. These aren't bench scrubs and DL players I'm just throwing in, they're legit rotational players on the team. Significant ones at that. Steven Adams would replace Vucevic as your starting C, who is 3 years younger, not as good, but has the potential to be. Lamb is a god. Hell, to sweeten the deal up we could toss is Pj3 as well. If it still doesn't intrigue you then you are the biggest ****** on this forum.
Steven Adams has the ability to have multiple 20/20 games on great FG%? Have you seen Nik's post moves this year? Fvck out of here with that shit. We don't want fvcking Lamb. We give up the two best players in that trade. We're not trying to help OKC contend.
This is Hennigan when you even propose that trade:
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/3918885/rob-hennigan-o.gif

[Fudge]

I really like OKC, they're my second favorite team, but I agree with Jameer. Orlando has the two best players in that trade. It would be insanely good for OKC if that could get the big V and Afflalo though.
They won't get as much youth in a trade as much as we'd be giving up. Lamb, PJ3, Adams, Dallas pick, could all turn out to be some of the main pieces of their core going forward.

Oladipo/Moore
Lamb/Lamb
Harkless/PJ3
Harris/Nicholson
Adams

Shit looks nice as fk doe.

[Fudge]

Steven Adams has the ability to have multiple 20/20 games on great FG%? Have you seen Nik's post moves this year? Fvck out of here with that shit. We don't want fvcking Lamb. We give up the two best players in that trade. We're not trying to help OKC contend.
This is Hennigan when you even propose that trade:
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/3918885/rob-hennigan-o.gif
Whys that? We're not in your conference. Your team is YEARS away from contention as well. Why are you worried about helping us out? :oldlol:

Have you seen Steven fcking Adams play in the limited PT he's getting? Dudes gonna be the best C in the league in 3 years. Book it.

[Jameerthefear]

Whys that? We're in your conference. Your team is YEARS away from contention as well. Why are you worried about helping us out? :oldlol:

Have you seen Steven fcking Adams play in the limited PT he's getting? Dudes gonna be the best C in the league in 3 years. Book it.
Are you high or retarded? Steven Adams isn't even a top 15 center in this league. Best C in the league in 3 years? Fvck out of here. Our current lineup looks much better than that shit you posted. Not to mention AA is a steal for the price and Perkin's contract is straight up shit. OKC fans :facepalm

[Fudge]

Are you high or retarded? Steven Adams isn't even a top 15 center in this league. Best C in the league in 3 years? Fvck out of here. Our current lineup looks much better than that shit you posted. Not to mention AA is a steal for the price and Perkin's contract is straight up shit. OKC fans :facepalm
Jameer
Afflalo
Harkless
Davis
Vucevic


Looks better than

Oladipo
Lamb
Harkless
Harris
Adams

????

Laughable.

[Fudge]

We'd actually be doing you guys a huge favor, dumping your mediocre ass of a PG in Scrubmeer and finally have Oladipo become your full time starter. :facepalm

[Jameerthefear]

Jameer
Afflalo
Harkless
Davis
Vucevic


Looks better than

Oladipo
Lamb
Harkless
Harris
Adams

????

Laughable.
then you're retarded. like honestly. it's not even a debate. it's fact. you're wrong.
Afflalo>>>>Lamb
Vucevic>>>>>Adams
It's not even close.

[outbreak]

Whys that? We're in your conference. Your team is YEARS away from contention as well. Why are you worried about helping us out? :oldlol:

Have you seen Steven fcking Adams play in the limited PT he's getting? Dudes gonna be the best C in the league in 3 years. Book it.
:roll:
Vucevic leaves more talent in the bowl when he takes his morning shit. Adams looks decent but is still a project and may never turn into a top 10 Centre whereas Vucevic as already shown he has that talent

[Jameerthefear]

We'd actually be doing you guys a huge favor, dumping your mediocre ass of a PG in Scrubmeer and finally have Oladipo become your full time starter. :facepalm
fvck out of here. jameer is the leader of this team. we want him here and that's the reason he's still here. his leadership helps in ways the box score won't show. i'm out. you've already shown that you're a moron so.

[Fudge]

then you're retarded. like honestly. it's not even a debate. it's fact. you're wrong.
Afflalo>>>>Lamb
Vucevic>>>>>Adams
It's not even close.
Wow. :oldlol: Mkay. Good luck with the next 20 years of mediocrity.

[Fudge]

fvck out of here. jameer is the leader of this team. we want him here and that's the reason he's still here. his leadership helps in ways the box score won't show. i'm out. you've already shown that you're a moron so.
His nickname is Scrubmeer for a reason. :facepalm

[Jameerthefear]

jameer is better than reggie jackson too btw.

:roll:
Vucevic leaves more talent in the bowl when he takes his morning shit. Adams looks decent but is still a project and may never turn into a top 10 Centre whereas Vucevic as already shown he has that talent
can you believe this guy? steven fvcking adams? he has to be trolling or just retarded. Hell, I wouldn't trade Afflalo ALONE for Steven Adams and Lamb then you thrown in Vucevic?
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/3918885/rob-hennigan-o.gif

[Fudge]

:roll:
Vucevic leaves more talent in the bowl when he takes his morning shit. Adams looks decent but is still a project and may never turn into a top 10 Centre whereas Vucevic as already shown he has that talent
Not a project at all. That's what he was projected to be when he was drafted, but he seems to have a firm grasp on how to play. Watch him play more. Dudes gonna be at least a top 3 C in the next few years. At least.

[Fudge]

jameer is better than reggie jackson too [/IMG]
:roll:

What's funny is that current Reggie is better than Jameer has EVER been and he's playing back up minutes. :oldlol:

[Jameerthefear]

Not a project at all. That's what he was projected to be when he was drafted, but he seems to have a firm grasp on how to play. Watch him play more. Dudes gonna be at least a top 3 C in the next few years. At least.
Horford
Jefferson
Howard
Drummond
Cousins
Hibbert
Vucevic
Gasol
Lopez
Pekovic
Valuciunas
Noah
Bynum (if he ever gets healthy)
Gortat
Favors
Off the top of my head this is who is better than Steven Adams and likely will be his whole career. He's not worth shit.

[bdreason]

K I'm being serious here... Check it bruhs.

Jeremy Lamb, Thabo Sefolosha, Steven Adams, Kendrick Perkins, Dallas pick

for

Arron Afflalo, Nikola Vucevic

Who says no? We could also take a filler, like Big Baby or some shit.


Orlando isn't going to trade Vucevic for any of those scrubs. Have you seen the guy play? He's an elite PF/C.

And OKC would just turn Afflalo into a 12ppg spot up shooter like they did Martin.

[KG215]

Orlando isn't going to trade Vucevic for any of those scrubs. Have you seen the guy play? He's an elite PF/C.

And OKC would just turn Afflalo into a 12ppg spot up shooter like they did Martin.
:rolleyes:

Yeah, because that's what happened. Brooks and the OKC players made a conscious effort to make Martin basically just a spot-up shooter.

[Kblaze8855]

Hes 28...and he just turned 28 in October so its not like hes even near 29.

Hes putting up 23/5/4 on great shooting overall and from 3.


Hes only making 7.7, 7.7, and 7.9 now and the next 3 years.

Why get rid of him at all? Is 28 too old for a rebuilding team?

Hes the age Kobe was in 2006.

People want youth so bad sometimes they just forget that guys are good players now and are likely to be for some time. I just read this in another topic about MCW...




the only flaw except his shooting is that he is 22 already..


Being 22 as a rookie is a flaw....

He might be in the NBA another 16 years!

His balls having dropped isn't reason to dump a very good player on a bargain deal for a late pick to me.

[DMAVS41]

Hes 28...and he just turned 28 in October so its not like hes even near 29.

Hes putting up 23/5/4 on great shooting overall and from 3.


Hes only making 7.7, 7.7, and 7.9 now and the next 3 years.

Why get rid of him at all? Is 28 too old for a rebuilding team?

Hes the age Kobe was in 2006.

People want youth so bad sometimes they just forget that guys are good players now and are likely to be for some time. I just read this in another topic about MCW...




Being 22 as a rookie is a flaw....

He might be in the NBA another 16 years!

His balls having dropped isn't reason to dump a very good player on a bargain deal for a late pick to me.

I think it's more about him adding wins to a team that clearly needs to be bad for a couple years to rebuild properly. He's probably not part of their long term future either.

Shedding him for picks and space is the right move. Especially with him playing this well....he's bound to be getting good offers from playoff teams and contenders.

[Le Shaqtus]

His nickname is Scrubmeer for a reason. :facepalm

I don't think anyone has called him that.

[VIntageNOvel]

err i think okc fans are overrating lamb and especially adams too much,
dude is nothing but servicable player,
while vucevic already put up some great number against top center in the league

its like lakers offering jordan farmar and robert sacre for d-will,
because they put some good number as a bench player,
hell even robert sacre looks as good as adams now
quality >> quantity

[ralph_i_el]

If the magic really want to tank they should get kendrick perkins from OKC and start him.

[imdaman99]

err i think okc fans are overrating lamb and especially adams too much,
dude is nothing but servicable player,
while vucevic already put up some great number against top center in the league

its like lakers offering jordan farmar and robert sacre for d-will,
because they put some good number as a bench player,
hell even robert sacre looks as good as adams now
quality >> quantity
Meanwhile Afflalo will come to OKC and still average 20 pts a game??? :roll:

It's called playing a role. When you already have 2 stars on the team, it's hard to groom a 3rd to be a star. They would prefer winning over the growing pains that Lamb might provide if they just throw him out there and let him learn with experience. Is Harden a possible top 10 player if he is still on OKC?

Afflalo is a nice player, but he is not a star. Let's not overrate him. The big man is a different story though, dudes already beasting. It would be nice for OKC to get Afflalo, but not at the expense of Lamb + pick(s). Suddenly Afflalo is worth 2 possible lottery picks? :roll:

[DMAVS41]

err i think okc fans are overrating lamb and especially adams too much,
dude is nothing but servicable player,
while vucevic already put up some great number against top center in the league

its like lakers offering jordan farmar and robert sacre for d-will,
because they put some good number as a bench player,
hell even robert sacre looks as good as adams now
quality >> quantity

could you over-rate afflalo any more? he's a solid player, but he's not a franchise guy or something.

He's worth a young player, cap space, and maybe a late first round pick...at most to the magic right now.

especially when afflalo playing well is hurting the long term future of the magic. they'll trade him after Christmas or at the deadline.

[VIntageNOvel]

i was not talking about afflalo,
but afflalo +vucevic for adams + lamb + scrubs

lets take example of lamb: you guys has been saying this dude got crazy potential, what you dont realize is that he aint no wade, he's kevin martin in the making, would be solid, consistent and good player, yes maybe he would give you 15-20 ppg, but if you want to talk about future SG/lottery worth potential, you should be talking about beal or even waiter, not lamb

same with adams

err how to put it, you guys just continuously denying that harden trade was a bad move by props up adams and lamb, just like we lakers fans sayin its good we got rid of bynum and howard, because one is injury prone and the other is liability on the offense, if it makes you feel good about the trade,then fine

i like westbrook and KD,
but i think OKC's owner was too cheap and its a bad move, you dont trade star to several solid player
he should have trade harden for star big (horford? monroe?) and amnesty perkin fat ass or try to get one of lottery pick (not several 10ish pick),

hell if they could get noel+pick for jrue, you could get davis for harden, or if its not possible, a lottery pick and draft drummond

[NugzFan]

Okc fans are delusional ITT

[Kblaze8855]

I think it's more about him adding wins to a team that clearly needs to be bad for a couple years to rebuild properly.

They are on pace for 27 wins. The average record of the team to get the #1 pick since 2000?

26 wins.


That's counting the lockout year winner but I gave them their full season equal of 26 wins since they won 21 in 66 games. Same win percentage.

Point is...the Magic are hardly ruining their draft position. And the Bobcats, Clippers, and others lost for years and just kept on sucking. Both ways work. Sometimes you gotta actually....try to build with good players.

You can take Bargnani #1 or Rondo #21 in the same draft.

Who knows? I get that you don't need to play for 38-42 wins....but as I said...27 win pace.

I don't think you need to dump a cheap possible all star for the crime of having just turned 27.

Its at least worth asking.

Id rather pay a known borderline all star who is 28 7.7 million than to pay a 22 year old rookie 3 million for maybe one day being that good.

Maybe I trade him for a pick from a team likely to be mid first round. The Thunder?

I don't need the 29th pick for an all star with years left in his prime just because hes leading us to 27 wins instead of 24.

[Kblaze8855]

And AA and Vucevic for Lamb and Adams?

Im not going to say it cant happen because we see head scratching trades all the time....

But if I were a Magic fan id be pissed off.

[DMAVS41]

They are on pace for 27 wins. The average record of the team to get the #1 pick since 2000?

26 wins.


That's counting the lockout year winner but I gave them their full season equal of 26 wins since they won 21 in 66 games. Same win percentage.

Point is...the Magic are hardly ruining their draft position. And the Bobcats, Clippers, and others lost for years and just kept on sucking. Sometimes you gotta actually....try to build with good players.

You can take Bargnani #1 or Rondo #21 in the same draft.

Who knows? I get that you don't need to play for 38-42 wins....but as I said...27 win pace.

I don't think you need to dump a cheap possible all star for the crime of having just turned 27.

Its at least worth asking.

Id rather pay a known borderline all star who is 28 7.7 million than to pay a 22 year old rookie 3 million for maybe one day being that good.

Maybe I trade him for a pick from a team likely to be mid first round. The Thunder?

I don't need the 29th pick for an all star with years left in his prime just because hes leading us to 27 wins instead of 24.

Ok, but you have a different goal in mind.

I'd say every loss counts. They can't make the playoffs with this roster...and if they improve next year at all...they could find themselves in the dreaded borderline playoff team range.

and it's more than what you get back for him...it saves the team money and gives them more space to go get. also, you could pair glen davis with him in a trade as well. which would be a huge win for the Magic to shed both of those contracts.

Also, the wins you talk about above are misleading. Right now the Magic would get the 7th or 8th pick in the draft if record held. Trust me...shedding Afflalo and likely another contract in order to get younger, get worse, and save money...in order to get a potential top 3 pick is absolutely worth it.

This isn't some run of the mill draft. There are at least 3 legit career all-star type players in this draft...with the potential to have multiple franchise superstar players.

Why keep a player that hurts your chances of getting that? Especially when said player won't be in the long term plans of the franchise anyway...

[DMAVS41]

And AA and Vucevic for Lamb and Adams?

Im not going to say it cant happen because we see head scratching trades all the time....

But if I were a Magic fan id be pissed off.

I like Vucevic a lot, so I wouldn't do that trade if I was the Magic. Well, I'd do some version of that if I could shed Davis and get a pick back as well.

[DMAVS41]

i was not talking about afflalo,
but afflalo +vucevic for adams + lamb + scrubs

lets take example of lamb: you guys has been saying this dude got crazy potential, what you dont realize is that he aint no wade, he's kevin martin in the making, would be solid, consistent and good player, yes maybe he would give you 15-20 ppg, but if you want to talk about future SG/lottery worth potential, you should be talking about beal or even waiter, not lamb

same with adams

err how to put it, you guys just continuously denying that harden trade was a bad move by props up adams and lamb, just like we lakers fans sayin its good we got rid of bynum and howard, because one is injury prone and the other is liability on the offense, if it makes you feel good about the trade,then fine

i like westbrook and KD,
but i think OKC's owner was too cheap and its a bad move, you dont trade star to several solid player
he should have trade harden for star big (horford? monroe?) and amnesty perkin fat ass or try to get one of lottery pick (not several 10ish pick),

hell if they could get noel+pick for jrue, you could get davis for harden, or if its not possible, a lottery pick and draft drummond

it was a good trade though. The thunder got better last year...and now they are even better this year.

you don't want Harden next to Durant and Westbrook...it doesn't make basketball sense. the last thing the Thunder needs is player controversy, no defense, and another ball dominant perimeter player.

they need solid defensive role players on the wings and need better bigs.

[Fudge]

Horford
Jefferson
Howard
Drummond
Cousins
Hibbert
Vucevic
Gasol
Lopez
Pekovic
Valuciunas
Noah
Bynum (if he ever gets healthy)
Gortat
Favors
Off the top of my head this is who is better than Steven Adams and likely will be his whole career. He's not worth shit.
:roll:

Currently? Sure, pretty much all of those guys are better than Steven Adams, because A) they're all seasoned vets B) they're full time starters on their teams. I mentioned 3 years for a reason, and thats because that'll be around the time he'll most likely be our full time starting C.

You were wrong about saying Reggie Jackson is shit, and you're clearly wrong about the whole idea of Adams being some scrub. :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

Ok, but you have a different goal in mind.

I'd say every loss counts. They can't make the playoffs with this roster...and if they improve next year at all...they could find themselves in the dreaded borderline playoff team range.

What young team growing to be a contender skips the borderline playoff stage?

You think they should shoot for bottom to 58 win team in one season?

You think one of these kids is gonna come in Tim Duncan great?


and it's more than what you get back for him...it saves the team money and gives them more space to go get.

Space to sign who? Who is there to sign better than him for the money hes paid?

Is anyone in the NBA paid less than him while clearly better and not still on a rookie deal?

Im guessing you mean somewhere down the line....


also, you could pair glen davis with him in a trade as well. which would be a huge win for the Magic to shed both of those contracts.

Not all contracts are bad. Really...what is 7.7 million for a 23/6/5 guard who shoots like 48% wets his threes and can play defense?


Also, the wins you talk about above are misleading. Right now the Magic would get the 7th or 8th pick in the draft if record held. Trust me...shedding Afflalo and likely another contract in order to get younger, get worse, and save money...in order to get a potential top 3 pick is absolutely worth it.

It isnt misleading. Its what they are on pace for. Exactly what the #1 pick winner usually wins.

Shooting for the worst record doesnt promise anything now that there isnt a coinflip for #1. The worst record has won the lottery 3 times in 28 years.

Last ten years its gone 3rd, 3rd, 8th 5th, 2nd, 9th, 6th, 5th and 6th and worst records.

Being a roughly 27 win team historically puts you in the running.


This isn't some run of the mill draft. There are at least 3 legit career all-star type players in this draft...with the potential to have multiple franchise superstar players.

Why keep a player that hurts your chances of getting that? Especially when said player won't be in the long term plans of the franchise anyway...

If its such a great draft I wouldnt worry at all.

Its one thing to tank....its another to give away a 28 year old star on a great deal when you are on a 27 win pace anyway. Just doesnt seem like much to gain. What...they are gonna win 23 and not 27?

Looking back in 20 years maybe the 6th pick gets them a Larry Bird or maybe they get a Ron Mercer. You cant know. And history doesnt really point to a mid to upper 20s win team being out of the hunt for greatness in the draft.

Say they get the next Hakeem...not happening...but just say they do.

In exactly 1 year they are gonna be looking to sign guys like AA to play with him anyway. And they are gonna pay a hell of a lot more for it.

[DMAVS41]

What young team growing to be a contender skips the borderline playoff stage?

You think they should shoot for bottom to 58 win team in one season?

You think one of these kids is gonna come in Tim Duncan great?



Space to sign who? Who is there to sign better than him for the money hes paid?

Is anyone in the NBA paid less than him while clearly better and not still on a rookie deal?

Im guessing you mean somewhere down the line....



Not all contracts are bad. Really...what is 7.7 million for a 23/6/5 guard who shoots like 48% wets his threes and can play defense?



It isnt misleading. Its what they are on pace for. Exactly what the #1 pick winner usually wins.

Shooting for the worst record doesnt promise anything now that there isnt a coinflip for #1. The worst record has won the lottery 3 times in 28 years.

Last ten years its gone 3rd, 3rd, 8th 5th, 2nd, 9th, 6th, 5th and 6th and worst records.

Being a roughly 27 win team historically puts you in the running.



If its such a great draft I wouldnt worry at all.

Its one thing to tank....its another to give away a 28 year old star on a great deal when you are on a 27 win pace anyway. Just doesnt seem like much to gain. What...they are gonna win 23 and not 27?

Looking back in 20 years maybe the 6th pick gets them a Larry Bird or maybe they get a Ron Mercer. You cant know. And history doesnt really point to a mid to upper 20s win team being out of the hunt for greatness in the draft.

Say they get the next Hakeem...not happening...but just say they do.

In exactly 1 year they are gonna be looking to sign guys like AA to play with him anyway. And they are gonna pay a hell of a lot more for it.

I disagree on almost all fronts.

Right now they would be getting the 7th or 8th pick in the draft. You can't ignore that 6 or 7 other teams are on a worse pace man. Do you really just blatantly want to ignore that?

Put it this way. Why would you risk getting the 8th pick rather than the 3rd pick to keep a player in Ariza that won't be part of your long term future? And will add more wins the following year which might do the exact same thing.

The margins are small on this stuff. You keep talking about a 27 win pace. Well, what if it takes a 22 win season to get the 3rd pick? And what if Ariza adds 5 wins this year and 7 next year to the roster?

Just open your mind for a second and just think about the possibility that this draft is the 03 draft all over again. If you have a top 5 pick you are getting a chance at a Lebron/Melo/Wade/Bosh type player. If you get the 7th pick...you get...I don't know...I think Kaman and TJ Ford went in the top 10.

The downside is just too huge and the upside is...well, I don't see the upside. Ariza's trade value is probably at an all time high right now. They can package a contract with Ariza and get younger, get at least 1 pick...and most importantly...get worse.

Seriously...this is ****ing afflalo...he's nothing. He has almost no value to a team looking to bottom out in an absurdly stacked draft.

Like...you really think missing out on one of the elite prospects is worth keeping Ariza? I'm floored...

If they want to keep him...then he needs to go down with a bad hamstring for 2 months or something. That would work as well, but I'd rather just move him and another contract to free up space and save money and get another pick.

I think you are just over-rating Afflalo really...he's good, but not that good. His stats are likely a product of playing a bigger role on a bad team. I see this a lot...people fall in love with players that produce on bad teams. I can assure you that Afflalo is not a "star"...I can't believe you actually think that. Also, they wouldn't be just giving him away...they'd get stuff back and shed another contract under my proposal.

Not to mention, Oladipo and Afflalo play the same position. I highly doubt Oladipo will play pg for his nba career.

[Levity]

the only trade that would work is lamb and a pick for AA.

Orlando does not want nor need sef. AA would be GREAT for the thunder. Defense, playmaking, ball handling, out side shooting, inside scoring, and a mid range game. if they want to win with their westbrook and durant core, they need to make this move and stop waiting for lamb to become what they hope he will

[Levity]

And AA and Vucevic for Lamb and Adams?

.


thats a retarded trade. are people really suggesting that. and if people really are, i can 100% guarantee none of them are magic fans.

[Le Shaqtus]

thats a retarded trade. are people really suggesting that. and if people really are, i can 100% guarantee none of them are magic fans.

Seriously, Orlando made out the winner out of Howard trade. Vucevic is a better player than anyone expected him to be, they won't give him up for a shitty Steven Adams who is just about better than Perkins. Lamb and a pick for AA.

We're not trying to gut our team here, we're trying to rebuild.

Just because you're a contending team doesn't mean all your players are worth a damn, Adams is not a trade piece and we don't want Jackson when we just drafted Oladipo.

[Fresh Kid]

If OKC wants to improve then trade him for thabo.

[Le Shaqtus]

If OKC wants to improve then trade him for thabo.

Thabo is terrible :lol

[Levity]

If OKC wants to improve then trade him for thabo.

orlando does not need nor want thabo.

the biggest reason theyd trade AA is so Oladipo can get all the minutes he can handle at the guard positions (pg and sg). AA can play some SF, but Orlando is still developing harkless as well. So trading for thabo does not solve anything, unless he strictly plays off the bench or gets DNP's

[DMAVS41]

Seriously, Orlando made out the winner out of Howard trade. Vucevic is a better player than anyone expected him to be, they won't give him up for a shitty Steven Adams who is just about better than Perkins. Lamb and a pick for AA.

We're not trying to gut our team here, we're trying to rebuild.

Just because you're a contending team doesn't mean all your players are worth a damn, Adams is not a trade piece and we don't want Jackson when we just drafted Oladipo.

I think any deal involving AA also has to include someone taking on the contract of Davis as well.

Otherwise I don't think it's worth moving him at this point...if they can't move Davis with him...then they need to wait until teams get more desperate. The problem with that is they might win a few too many games in the meantime.

My guess is that it wouldn't be all that difficult to move Davis as well, but I'm not sure.

[Fresh Kid]

Thabo is terrible :lol
yea somewhat true, but you never know relocation for the veteran might be a blessing in disguise for him and the young magic team.

[Fresh Kid]

orlando does not need nor want thabo.

the biggest reason theyd trade AA is so Oladipo can get all the minutes he can handle at the guard positions (pg and sg). AA can play some SF, but Orlando is still developing harkless as well. So trading for thabo does not solve anything, unless he strictly plays off the bench or gets DNP's
He can be a good bench player for the magic, bring that experience to the team might really help, he can give Oladipo a few pointers too.

[Kblaze8855]

I disagree on almost all fronts.

Right now they would be getting the 7th or 8th pick in the draft. You can't ignore that 6 or 7 other teams are on a worse pace man. Do you really just blatantly want to ignore that?

You do know that they do a draft lottery right? That...the worst team isnt just handed the top pick? That 25 of 28 years they did NOT get it? That good gms have been building winners with Paul Georges, Rondos, Dumars, and so on types for 70 years? That more teams fail by just deciding to suck than fail by collecting good players in the hopes it all comes together?

Shooting for the moon usually just wastes a bullet.

I get that its an inviting target...I really do.

It just usually leads to falling bullets.



Put it this way. Why would you risk getting the 8th pick rather than the 3rd pick to keep a player in Ariza that won't be part of your long term future? And will add more wins the following year which might do the exact same thing.

The margins are small on this stuff. You keep talking about a 27 win pace. Well, what if it takes a 22 win season to get the 3rd pick? And what if Ariza adds 5 wins this year and 7 next year to the roster?

Just open your mind for a second and just think about the possibility that this draft is the 03 draft all over again. If you have a top 5 pick you are getting a chance at a Lebron/Melo/Wade/Bosh type player. If you get the 7th pick...you get...I don't know...I think Kaman and TJ Ford went in the top 10.

You really wanna play "In this year they get _____" with me? In 11 they get #1. And in 2000. And in 86.

#4 has not won since David Robinson.

6th has won 3 times.

Its all pretty up for grabs. You win 20 something games its there for the taking. We just wait and see.



The downside is just too huge and the upside is...well, I don't see the upside. Ariza's trade value is probably at an all time high right now. They can package a contract with Ariza and get younger, get at least 1 pick...and most importantly...get worse.


Seriously...this is ****ing afflalo...he's nothing. He has almost no value to a team looking to bottom out in an absurdly stacked draft.

Like...you really think missing out on one of the elite prospects is worth keeping Ariza? I'm floored...

If they want to keep him...then he needs to go down with a bad hamstring for 2 months or something. That would work as well, but I'd rather just move him and another contract to free up space and save money and get another pick.

I think you are just over-rating Afflalo really...he's good, but not that good. His stats are likely a product of playing a bigger role on a bad team. I see this a lot...people fall in love with players that produce on bad teams. I can assure you that Afflalo is not a "star"...I can't believe you actually think that. Also, they wouldn't be just giving him away...they'd get stuff back and shed another contract under my proposal.

Not to mention, Oladipo and Afflalo play the same position. I highly doubt Oladipo will play pg for his nba career.

Serious question here since a point by point thing there gets us nowhere when I value good players and you want them removed. Just far too different on the approach....

But for real...

Should a bad team keep any good players at all if they arent superstars?

All non superstars on bad teams need to be traded so the team can be worse forever until they luck into Hakeem/Tim/Shaq/Lebron/MJ/Kobe/Magic?

That how you would GM?

[DMAVS41]

You do know that they do a draft lottery right? That...the worst team isnt just handed the top pick? That 25 of 28 years they did NOT get it?



You really wanna play "In this year they get _____" with me? In 11 they get #1. And in 2000. And in 86.

#4 has not win since David Robinson.

6th has won 3 times.

Its all pretty up for grabs. You win 20 something games its there for the taking. We just wait and see.




Serious question here since a point by point thing there gets us nowhere when I value good players and you want them removed. Just far too different on the approach....

But for real...

Should a bad team keep any good players at all if they arent superstars?

All non superstars on bad teams need to be traded so the team can be worse forever until they luck into Hakeem/Tim/Shaq/Lebron/MJ/Kobe/Magic?

That how you would GM?

You don't play for luck man. You do the best you can with the chances you are given. You try to leave as little to chance. How would I GM? I wouldn't rely on luck to get a top pick. I know that for sure...LOL

That is why I kept saying the 3rd pick and not the first. You do realize that the more odds you have...the better your chances are...right? That the Magic could get the first pick and have a better chance at doing so the worse their record is? You do get that...right?

You do understand that the draft pick is only part of the potential upside. There is more to it than that, but again...why rely on hope? Why not just do everything in your power to get the best pick you can while also developing your young players as much as possible?

As always it's case specific. I'd GM by not keeping a player unlikely to be in the long term future of the franchise that happens to play the same position that we just drafted at. A guy that has an all time high trade value that not only allows us to shed contracts, but gives us a better chance to get a high pick an absurdly loaded draft.

You do realize that he's likely gone in 2 or 3 years regardless...right? Especially if he continues to produce like this on bad teams...he'll opt out and get paid and the Magic will lose him after next year. And it will be worth it how? I'd love to hear that explanation.

And it's not shooting for the moon. It's giving your franchise the best chance to get better and contend. Afflalo does nothing for that. He's not a superstar. He's not an exciting player...he's not putting people into seats. All he's doing is using the Magic as a vehicle to increase his value so he can opt out after next year and get paid on the open market if they don't move him. All while having Oladipo play a position that likely won't be his career position.

When the Magic need an afflalo type player...they can go out and get one...they'll have the space to do it and savings as well if they shed Davis in the process. And, like you say about getting good players late in drafts, a pick they get in a trade is very valuable as well.


Could you answer the upside to keeping him?

Here is what happens if they trade him this year;

They get to shed Glen Davis's contract. They get younger. They get a future pick. They save money. They likely get a better draft pick. And that is just this year. If he stays next year again...it's all over again. Adding wins...playing the same position as Oladipo. Costing the team money...etc.

What happens if they keep him? How does that make the future of the franchise better?

[Kblaze8855]

Ive got a guy on my roof at the moment and I need to get involved with that so ill be as brief as I can Instead of a long thing....

Thunder keep Ray and Rashard....win 31 games...draft Durant. Then rebuild. Two worst teams ended up 4th and 5th. 1-2-3 all won 30 games.

Pacers. Drafting middling picks for years till their good players outnumbered the scrubs. Never afraid to be an 8th seed that lost in the first round.

Bulls. Middling team. Keeps Deng, Kirk,Nocioni, and Gordon. win 33 games. Take rose. Slowly build a back to back #1 seed. Injuries now but...whole other issue.

There is little evidence that just falling apart makes you great any more often than collecting good players. The draft does we both agree(though I remember a long thing on you going into location of teams and ignoring that teams draft their leaders).

But you dont just abandon good players. Not when the team is losing anyway.

Nobody wants to be the Hawks for 10 years stuck in the middle. But if the Hawks took Chris Paul instead of Marvin Williams or Rondo and not The Landlord...

They arent the Hawks.

Comes down to it you just need a GM with an eye for talent.

Teams have been sucking their way into more sucking forever. Its more reliable to hold onto good young players.

Especially when you can do it and still be a 20 something win team and get a great pick.

Trading him for a bad pick to hopefully get a star who will just need the guy you just got rid of to get the rights to #28? Eh.

You go your way. Id go mine. You may luck into Lebron. Maybe.

I may collect 9 good players and beat you in the finals.

[DMAVS41]

Ive got a guy on my roof at the moment and I need to get involved with that so ill be as brief as I can Instead of a long thing....

Thunder keep Ray and Rashard....win 31 games...draft Durant. Then rebuild. Two worst teams ended up 4th and 5th. 1-2-3 all won 30 games.

Pacers. Drafting middling picks for years till their good players outnumbered the scrubs. Never afraid to be an 8th seed that lost in the first round.

Bulls. Middling team. Keeps Deng, Kirk,Nocioni, and Gordon. win 33 games. Take rose. Slowly build a back to back #1 seed. Injuries now but...whole other issue.

There is little evidence that just falling apart makes you great any more often than collecting good players. The draft does we both agree(though I remember a long thing on you going into location of teams and ignoring that teams draft their leaders).

But you dont just abandon good players. Not when the team is losing anyway.

Nobody wants to be the Hawks for 10 years stuck in the middle. But if the Hawks took Chris Paul instead of Marvin Williams or Rondo and not The Landlord...

They arent the Hawks.

Comes down to it you just need a GM with an eye for talent.

Teams have been sucking their way into more sucking forever. Its more reliable to hold onto good young players.

Especially when you can do it and still be a 20 something win team and get a great pick.

Trading him for a bad pick to hopefully get a star who will just need the guy you just got rid of to get the rights to #28? Eh.

You go your way. Id go mine. You may luck into Lebron. Maybe.

I may collect 9 good players and beat you in the finals.


Go handle the stuff on the roof and come back.

This isn't a;

"how to build a non specific team"...argument.

It's how the Magic should proceed. What players are you collecting? Does the fact that Afflalo has an opt out after next year not scare you at all? You going to be cool with paying Afflalo 12 plus million a year to stay after he produces 21/5/5 at least the next 2 years as the best player on a really bad team?

You willing to extend him at like 4 years 48 million? Because that is what the Magic are driving up his value towards if this keeps up.

I'm not against collecting good players or anything like that. I'm about getting rid of guys that don't do anything to help my team. Like Afflalo. He's got 1.5 years left on his deal before you either have to let him walk or pay him. I'm assuming you just don't know that.

And if you do know that...how could you have this opinion? You think you are beating other teams with Afflalo as your best player? LOL

Dude. He plays the same position as your most recent draft pick. He has great trade value. he allows you to shed another contract and get a pick back.

You don't need any of the picks to be stars. But the chance that they are is what makes this a no brainer.

If the Magic could trade Afflalo and Davis for some young talent, cap space, and a pick...they would be absolutely retarded not to do it.

But the more I here you talk about this stuff...the more I question what league you are watching.

[Jameerthefear]

seriously we should keep afflalo (which we have no plans in trading him anyways) he's a good piece. kblaze is 100% correct. we don't need to bottom out completely. some of you guys seem to think you know more about the team i watch everyday which is just lol.

[DMAVS41]

seriously we should keep afflalo (which we have no plans in trading him anyways) he's a good piece. kblaze is 100% correct. we don't need to bottom out completely. some of you guys seem to think you know more about the team i watch everyday which is just lol.

why keep him? could you give actual reasons.

you are going to keep a player that is gone in 1.5 years anyway? for what purpose?

[Jameerthefear]

why keep him? could you give actual reasons.

you are going to keep a player that is gone in 1.5 years anyway? for what purpose?
first of all oladipo plays point guard.
second of all rob hennigan hinted that we're keeping him, and above what anyone else says on this board, i trust him.

[Owl]

it was a good trade though. The thunder got better last year...and now they are even better this year.

you don't want Harden next to Durant and Westbrook...it doesn't make basketball sense. the last thing the Thunder needs is player controversy, no defense, and another ball dominant perimeter player.

they need solid defensive role players on the wings and need better bigs.
Whether or not you like Harden's fit with the OKC core (and there were aspects of the fit that were positive, he was a secondary playmaker which helped next to an impure point in Westbrook) it wasn't close to good trade.

Thunder traded a superstar who was on their timeline (i.e. compete for at least the next half-decade) for a rental on a declining no D shooter-scorer, a mid-first rounder whose upside is the other guy you're trading for, and a couple of other first rounders which you've just made sure won't be top 10.

Given that Martin was clearly a rental (if they weren't giving Harden money they surely weren't going to give Martin what others would), the decreasing value of Houston picks once Harden became a Rocket, and Harden's proven per-minute productivity it was a bad trade, a very bad one.

[DMAVS41]

first of all oladipo plays point guard.
second of all rob hennigan said we're keeping him, and above what anyone else says on this board, i trust him.

those aren't arguments. i'm asking you why it is smart to keep him. it's not a hard question. you are so adamant that the Magic should keep him. I'm asking you why they should...not hard.

I'll give you my arguments for trading him;

He plays the same position that Oladipo will ultimately play in the NBA
He adds wins to a team looking to get the best draft picks possible this year and likely next year as well
The Magic an pair him with Davis to shed both contracts
The Magic will get a pick back in return
The Magic will get more financial flexibility and save money over the next couple years
He is likely opting out after next year and the Magic won't want to pay him his market value (especially as he drives up that value putting up these numbers on a bad team)

[DMAVS41]

Whether or not you like Harden's fit with the OKC core (and there were aspects of the fit that were positive, he was a secondary playmaker which helped next to an impure point in Westbrook) it wasn't close to good trade.

Thunder traded a superstar who was on their timeline (i.e. compete for at least the next half-decade) for a rental on a declining no D shooter-scorer, a mid-first rounder whose upside is the other guy you're trading for, and a couple of other first rounders which you've just made sure won't be top 10.

Given that Martin was clearly a rental (if they weren't giving Harden money they surely weren't going to give Martin what others would), the decreasing value of Houston picks once Harden became a Rocket, and Harden's proven per-minute productivity it was a bad trade, a very bad one.

Actually it wasn't. It allowed the Thunder to overhaul the roster while still remaining a top contender all while addressing primary needs.

It was actually a great trade. The WB issue ****ed it up. You'd be talking about the 13 Champs right now if WB doesn't go down.

Like...do you understand that the Thunder were just factually better in 13 than they were in 12. It's just really not debatable....

[Jameerthefear]

those aren't arguments. i'm asking you why it is smart to keep him. it's not a hard question. you are so adamant that the Magic should keep him. I'm asking you why they should...not hard.

I'll give you my arguments for trading him;

He plays the same position that Oladipo will ultimately play in the NBA - how do you know? he plays point right now.
He adds wins to a team looking to get the best draft picks possible this year and likely next year as well - we're like 2 games away from having the worst record in the league
The Magic an pair him with Davis to shed both contracts
The Magic will get a pick back in return - so what? it will be a late first.
The Magic will get more financial flexibility and save money over the next couple years - he's cheap.
He is likely opting out after next year and the Magic won't want to pay him his market value (especially as he drives up that value putting up these numbers on a bad team)
we're not going to be rebuilding for too much longer either. who knows after this year. we also have knicks/denver.

[DMAVS41]

we're not going to be rebuilding for too much longer either. who knows after this year. we also have knicks/denver.

And you think paying afflalo over 10 million per season after next season is part of a smart plan? You really think he isn't opting out?

You know what happens if you keep him? He adds wins to the team you don't want in two crucial years...and he uses his role as the best player on a bad team to put up numbers that drive his worth up so he can opt out next year and hit the open market and get paid. And you are left with worse draft picks and nothing in return...

Like. Please think for a minute. He's at 23/5/4 62% TS and he's a quality defender. He's going to for at least 10 million per season...likely more. Especially if he keeps putting up these numbers...as he likely will in the role he has on this team.

And I think you might want to watch more closely...I don't think Oladipo will be a career NBA pg. I might be wrong, but my guess is that he'll be a sg in the future.

Eric Gordon got essentially a max deal putting up similar numbers...LOL

[Owl]

a pick and a player should do the trick...
It shouldn't unless the player is fairly good. A Thunder pick has minimal value (and given the Dallas pick is highly protected, that means if you want a pick of any value you need a third party).

For the general should Orlando trade Afflalo debate. As a general principle they should be exploring their options with him. Why, because his trade value is at all time high, he's playing way better than last year (usage, percentages, passing, boards), he's not going to have close to this level of value at the point in time when Orlando can realistically aspire to be serious contenders, and because his value recedes as (a) his shooting regresses to the mean and (b) the time remaining on his contract decreases. There is also apparently a lottery bonanza this year so improving your shot at a top 5 pick is worthwhile. He and Oladipo play the same position too, so there are good reasons to hope to trade AA now.

Does this mean aggressively shopping him? No because whilst having picks is good sometimes people act like all first rounders are of the same value. For most teams Afflalo would be a final piece to an already very good team. Those teams picks are likely to be mid-late 20s (if they're anytime soon). Those are not picks (on average, obviously sometimes players slip through the cracks) that you want.

Also the idea of dumping Davis being any great advantage is false. Don't get me wrong, Davis is bad. But his contract comes off the books in 2015. Orlando won't be players in FA this summer for a game changing player. By next year he's asset as an expiring contract or you let him go.

He is more valuable to someone else than to Orlando. So wanting to trade makes sense. This years draft looks good so wanting to tank makes sense. But to suggest that doesn't mean that Orlando should take a package like the below

He's worth a young player, cap space, and maybe a late first round pick...at most to the magic right now.
(I'm assuming the young player isn't a particularly good one, and as above getting cap space a year sooner isn't a big deal) even if that's all he's worth to the Magic, because there are 29 potential trade partners. So whilst they don't have great leverage that doesn't mean opposing teams won't have to outbid one another. So the deal Orlando should be (at least) his value to the second most eager team to have him plus a little bit more. So, for example the OKC packages talked about don't seem particularly great given the value of a 2 way shooting guard in a league without many great shooting guards.

I'd want to trade him now, whilst his value is high, but I wouldn't negate that by treating him as though his value is low.

[DMAVS41]

It shouldn't unless the player is fairly good. A Thunder pick has minimal value (and given the Dallas pick is highly protected, that means if you want a pick of any value you need a third party).

For the general should Orlando trade Afflalo debate. As a general principle they should be exploring their options with him. Why, because his trade value is at all time high, he's playing way better than last year (usage, percentages, passing, boards), he's not going to have close to this level of value at the point in time when Orlando can realistically aspire to be serious contenders, and because his value recedes as (a) his shooting regresses to the mean and (b) the time remaining on his contract decreases. There is also apparently a lottery bonanza this year so improving your shot at a top 5 pick is worthwhile. He and Oladipo play the same position too, so there are good reasons to hope to trade AA now.

Does this mean aggressively shopping him? No because whilst having picks is good sometimes people act like all first rounders are of the same value. For most teams Afflalo would be a final piece to an already very good team. Those teams picks are likely to be mid-late 20s (if they're anytime soon). Those are not picks (on average, obviously sometimes players slip through the cracks) that you want.

Also the idea of dumping Davis being any great advantage is false. Don't get me wrong, Davis is bad. But his contract comes off the books in 2015. Orlando won't be players in FA this summer for a game changing player. By next year he's asset as an expiring contract or you let him go.

He is more valuable to someone else than to Orlando. So wanting to trade makes sense. This years draft looks good so wanting to tank makes sense. But to suggest that doesn't mean that Orlando should take a package like the below

(I'm assuming the young player isn't a particularly good one, and as above getting cap space a year sooner isn't a big deal) even if that's all he's worth to the Magic, because there are 29 potential trade partners. So whilst they don't have great leverage that doesn't mean opposing teams won't have to outbid one another. So the deal Orlando should be (at least) his value to the second most eager team to have him plus a little bit more. So, for example the OKC packages talked about don't seem particularly great given the value of a 2 way shooting guard in a league without many great shooting guards.

I'd want to trade him now, whilst his value is high, but I wouldn't negate that by treating him as though his value is low.

Neither would I. As I have said the whole time...they need to include the Glen Davis contract in any deal as well to make it worth it.

That is where we disagree. I think you save the franchise money now so that you can potentially go over the cap and have even more flexibility in the coming years.

[Owl]

Actually it wasn't. It allowed the Thunder to overhaul the roster while still remaining a top contender all while addressing primary needs.

It was actually a great trade. The WB issue ****ed it up. You'd be talking about the 13 Champs right now if WB doesn't go down.

Like...do you understand that the Thunder were just factually better in 13 than they were in 12. It's just really not debatable....
1) Injuries happen. If you want to balance your usage on two players when you could have three (and choose to lose your alternate playmaker) you inherently make your team more fragile. That's not to say they weren't unlucky but it was bad luck that they made themselves worse prepared for.

2) They were better but that doesn't prove cause and effect. The Bucks had the same record the year after losing Jabbar. Does that mean that the net benefits of prime Jabbar are equal to the benefits of Elmore Smith, Brian Winters, Junior Bridgeman and Dave Meyers. You can do the same with Chamberlain and Jordan, minimal differences to records without them.

3) What "needs" did the trade address? The immediate return was two SGs i.e. players at the same position as Harden, only substantially worse. The only "need" I can think of financial flexibility. Is that a "need" is that something you make your team worse for.

4) Why are you so confident they'd be champs? They were the best regular season team. But leaving aside questions about whether the defending champs were gunning that hard for RS win totals, how often does the best RS team team win the title? 50%? The idea that it was a foregone conclusion is ludicrous. Perhaps your meaning is that they were favourites, or likely champs? This would certainly be less objectionable than the apparent claim of manifest destiny of a Thunder championship.

The facts are: Harden is a max value player.
OKC seemingly could have had him for a non-"franchise" max.
There was no urgency about moving him (his new contract didn't kick in for a year and he would have remained eminently tradeable).

And for that superstar they got no one who is guaranteed to be an above average starter and no one who is likely to be an all-star.

[Owl]

Neither would I. As I have said the whole time...they need to include the Glen Davis contract in any deal as well to make it worth it.

That is where we disagree. I think you save the franchise money now so that you can potentially go over the cap and have even more flexibility in the coming years.
1) From what I've heard Rich DeVos cares about having a title in his lifetime. As such I think Orlando are better off getting a real asset than saving the owner a small amount of money which he may or may not reinvest in the team (or more accurately he may or more likely will not, say, "Well since you saved me $6m on Glen Davis' salary, I'll do this deal, but otherwise I wouldn't have.")

2) In a more general sense money making is the owners priority and bulding a winner, the GM's. Even where the owner isn't making titles a priority, I don't think of teams having saved them money one year which they'll spend later.

3) To be clear this post wasn't against you, though it is clear we differ on the value to Orlando of saving what I consider a relatively small amount of money (in basketball terms) or having the opportunity to spend that money sooner relative to the value of getting a better value asset in any initial trade whilst retaining Davis for an expiring contract.

In the "tanking" (or prioritising the future) debate I generally agree with you. But given that you see the imperative of landing impact players, of getting a top 5 pick type player, I would think you'd also want to maximise assets in a trade and I don't see that earlier cap space/money as something that really helps a title winning team.

Maybe you're factoring in the lottery gain (improved chances at an elite prospect) into the trade. Which sort of makes sense, as a trade will influence this. But also as in my initial argument, his lack of value to Orlando shouldn't mean not forced teams to outbid one another. As such deal like the OKC ones discussed above, with or without dumping Davis, doesn't seem enough.

[HylianNightmare]

remember the magic do not have any roster spots, until/if hedo is bought out, further complicating any trade as we would probably have to send more guys out

[DMAVS41]

1) Injuries happen. If you want to balance your usage on two players when you could have three (and choose to lose your alternate playmaker) you inherently make your team more fragile. That's not to say they weren't unlucky but it was bad luck that they made themselves worse prepared for.

2) They were better but that doesn't prove cause and effect. The Bucks had the same record the year after losing Jabbar. Does that mean that the net benefits of prime Jabbar are equal to the benefits of Elmore Smith, Brian Winters, Junior Bridgeman and Dave Meyers. You can do the same with Chamberlain and Jordan, minimal differences to records without them.

3) What "needs" did the trade address? The immediate return was two SGs i.e. players at the same position as Harden, only substantially worse. The only "need" I can think of financial flexibility. Is that a "need" is that something you make your team worse for.

4) Why are you so confident they'd be champs? They were the best regular season team. But leaving aside questions about whether the defending champs were gunning that hard for RS win totals, how often does the best RS team team win the title? 50%? The idea that it was a foregone conclusion is ludicrous. Perhaps your meaning is that they were favourites, or likely champs? This would certainly be less objectionable than the apparent claim of manifest destiny of a Thunder championship.

The facts are: Harden is a max value player.
OKC seemingly could have had him for a non-"franchise" max.
There was no urgency about moving him (his new contract didn't kick in for a year and he would have remained eminently tradeable).

And for that superstar they got no one who is guaranteed to be an above average starter and no one who is likely to be an all-star.


I'll try to be brief. The needs addressed? They don't need a ball dominant..no defense playing perimeter player next to westbrook and durant. That is simply bad team management.

They need role players in the mold of Lamb. And they needed a big...which is exactly what they got.

The whole flaw in this thinking? You keep harping on Harden being a franchise max player. I agree he is...and that is my exact point. You don't want a franchise max player playing 3rd option on this team. It doesn't make sense. All it does is take away touches from your other two main guys...made even worse by the fact that Harden is a perimeter player as well.

The only thing I agree with you on is that they were thinner and an injury to WB or Durant derailed them completely. With Harden as well...they could have still made the WCF...but they weren't beating the Spurs in my opinion.

Why am I confident that they would have won? Because I thought they were much better than people gave them credit for...and I thought the Spurs/Heat were over-rated last year. The Heat basically slumped their way to the title...I just don't see them being able to play like that and still beat the Thunder if healthy.

But that is just my opinion of course.

But I really don't understand the issues people have with the trade. They were arguably the best team in the league last year before an unlucky injury. And now look as strong and as deep as ever...and have clearly gotten better at the center position and that is exactly what they needed. They have retooled on the fly all while maintaining legit contender status.

You also have to realize that Harden's trade value was not as high as many think it was. He was coming off a terrible finals performance and nobody knew he'd be capable of 25 plus ppg this easily.

Again...time will tell. But I think Presti did a lot better here than people are willing to admit.

[DMAVS41]

1) From what I've heard Rich DeVos cares about having a title in his lifetime. As such I think Orlando are better off getting a real asset than saving the owner a small amount of money which he may or may not reinvest in the team (or more accurately he may or more likely will not, say, "Well since you saved me $6m on Glen Davis' salary, I'll do this deal, but otherwise I wouldn't have.")

2) In a more general sense money making is the owners priority and bulding a winner, the GM's. Even where the owner isn't making titles a priority, I don't think of teams having saved them money one year which they'll spend later.

3) To be clear this post wasn't against you, though it is clear we differ on the value to Orlando of saving what I consider a relatively small amount of money (in basketball terms) or having the opportunity to spend that money sooner relative to the value of getting a better value asset in any initial trade whilst retaining Davis for an expiring contract.

In the "tanking" (or prioritising the future) debate I generally agree with you. But given that you see the imperative of landing impact players, of getting a top 5 pick type player, I would think you'd also want to maximise assets in a trade and I don't see that earlier cap space/money as something that really helps a title winning team.

Maybe you're factoring in the lottery gain (improved chances at an elite prospect) into the trade. Which sort of makes sense, as a trade will influence this. But also as in my initial argument, his lack of value to Orlando shouldn't mean not forced teams to outbid one another. As such deal like the OKC ones discussed above, with or without dumping Davis, doesn't seem enough.

Yes, we are in agreement here for the most part.

The reason I think you trade Ariza now or shortly is because I think it's very important to win as few games as possible this year. Now, don't get me wrong...that doesn't mean just ship him for nothing.

I don't know what the offers are for him right now. To stay with the OKC theme...I'm assuming it would be something like Lamb, Jones, and a pick...while finding a dump spot for Davis.

I think I'd do that if I was both teams. But again, I'm really high on Lamb. I think he's going to be really good. I also like Jones.

So you bottom out this year. And then lets say you get a top 5 guy. Perhaps the Australian pg Exum or Smart...assuming they miss out on Wiggins or Parker.

You have a core going forward of;

pg: exum/smart
sg. oladipo/lamb
sf:
pf: nicholson
c: vucevic

with other young talent like jones and harkless and harris

You let them all play a shit ton this year and next together. They get great experience and you get a high pick this year and likely another lottery pick the next year. You then have a ton of financial flexibility the summer of 2015 after the draft to fill out the team and start making playoff runs or better in the east.

Will it work for sure? Not sure, but keeping afflalo just so he can drive up his value and hurt the Magic's draft pick at the same time seems absurd.

[knicksman]

i was not talking about afflalo,
but afflalo +vucevic for adams + lamb + scrubs

lets take example of lamb: you guys has been saying this dude got crazy potential, what you dont realize is that he aint no wade, he's kevin martin in the making, would be solid, consistent and good player, yes maybe he would give you 15-20 ppg, but if you want to talk about future SG/lottery worth potential, you should be talking about beal or even waiter, not lamb

same with adams

err how to put it, you guys just continuously denying that harden trade was a bad move by props up adams and lamb, just like we lakers fans sayin its good we got rid of bynum and howard, because one is injury prone and the other is liability on the offense, if it makes you feel good about the trade,then fine

i like westbrook and KD,
but i think OKC's owner was too cheap and its a bad move, you dont trade star to several solid player
he should have trade harden for star big (horford? monroe?) and amnesty perkin fat ass or try to get one of lottery pick (not several 10ish pick),

hell if they could get noel+pick for jrue, you could get davis for harden, or if its not possible, a lottery pick and draft drummond

bynum and howard were a fit while harden isnt and at the same time okc got returns while you spend a lot for a rental so please ur an idiot if you think they are the same. And Id rather have a cheap owner than a stupid owner who spends on player that doesnt fit.