Steven Adams turns out to be quite the find / James Harden trade revisted

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

Look let me start off by saying at the time, it was the worst trade ever..we didn't get to see much of Lamb and who knows who the draft pick would have turned into.

Here's an article by David Thorpe that makes plenty of sense.

[QUOTE]

[russwest0]

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[gyu]

Thunder made out like Bandits.

[VIntageNOvel]

so thunder get comparable SG who play better defense, and serviceable centre,
does it means if they still doesnt win its durant fault?

[Bobby13]

:applause:
This deserves a sticky

[bdreason]

Proof is in the pudding. If they don't at least make the NBA Finals over the next couple years, then the trade was a complete failure.

[Bobby13]

I thought that Adams would be a raw, athletic big who could maybe give the team a few baskets a game running the floor with his athleticism. Didn't think he'd get any minutes under Perkins, but boy was I wrong on all accounts. This guy is smart, crafty, and has a great touch around the basket. Biggest steal of the draft.

He's made some rookie mistakes in the games that Perkins was out for, but I'm really impressed by this guy.

[chips93]

Proof is in the pudding. If they don't at least make the NBA Finals over the next couple years, then the trade was a complete failure.

why?

they had an unsustainable core (too expensive).

so as long as it turns out that they didnt downgrade their talent badly, the trade is a success, imo.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Proof is in the pudding. If they don't at least make the NBA Finals over the next couple years, then the trade was a complete failure.

This. You just don't trade away a player as talented as Harden if you don't get better.

[chips93]

This. You just don't trade away a player as talented as Harden if you don't get better.

did you read the quotes in the op?

its better to trade him for 70 cents on the dollar, than have him leave and get nothing.

[dunksby]

You should also consider the fact that as a result of Harden's leaving, Reggie got to showcase his talents with increased minutes. Basically another side to the story and credit to the Thunder FO.

[hawkfan]

Depends on how well Lamb and Adams develop. They are both young and have a lot of upside. Lamb may be 2 years away. And bigs often take years to develop - 4 years for Adams is to develop is not out of the question.

They thought that Harden leaving would create more shots for Perkins, and his scoring would go up. And that Ibaka would develop into a consistent third option. Those two things haven't happened.

[Dizzle-2k7]

why?

they had an unsustainable core (too expensive).

so as long as it turns out that they didnt downgrade their talent badly, the trade is a success, imo.


so going from a finals team to a perennial 2nd round/3rd round exit is a success?

[chips93]

so going from a finals team to a perennial 2nd round/3rd round exit is a success?

considering the circumstances, yeah the trade was a success.

its easy to step back and say harden is a top 10 player (nobody was saying that when he was in okc, but ill ignore that for a minute) and you should get an all star back.

but okc's ownership is too cheap to pay much luxury tax, so harden was never gonna be able to stay, regardless of whether he wanted to be 'the man' on a team.

so really, if they were gonna lose him for nothing in the off-season (okc's leverage in trade talks would have only gone down as the season progressed), getting two good role players (with potential for me) is a pretty good return for harden imo.



what is the better alternative?

[KG215]

They thought that Harden leaving would create more shots for Perkins, and his scoring would go up. And that Ibaka would develop into a consistent third option. Those two things haven't happened.
The whole thing is completely wrong and hilariously stupid, but the bold killed me.

[imdaman99]

so going from a finals team to a perennial 2nd round/3rd round exit is a success?
Who in the West is head and shoulders better than them that will beat them over and over to prevent the Thunder from making the Finals? Warriors? Clippers? Spurs? Grizz? I would take OKC to beat any of those teams in a series.

[DMAVS41]

so going from a finals team to a perennial 2nd round/3rd round exit is a success?

why do people insist on ignoring the fact that the Thunder were better in 13 than they were in 12 by just about every measure?

why do people insist on pretending that Westbrook didn't get hurt?

I've said it from day 1...I don't like the idea in basketball terms of having 3 ball dominant perimeter players. It doesn't make much sense basketball wise...and even worse...was bound to cause controversy (as we already saw) between harden and westbrook.

The Thunder are better now and have a better team in terms of fit than they did in 12.

I still think we would have seen the Thunder win the title last year if not for the Westbrook injury.

It's kind of funny. Harden is the exact type of player the Thunder don't need. They need solid defensive minded role players that don't need the ball a ton to be effective...and they need better bigs.

[hawkfan]

The whole thing is completely wrong and hilariously stupid, but the bold killed me.

Perkins averaged 10.1 ppg in 2009-2010.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/perkike01.html

The Thunder thought a combination of Perkins with more scoring, Ibaka with more scoring, and Martin providing some of the scoring lost from Harden leaving would be either be the same of what they got with Harden or even more than what they got with Harden and the Thunder.

This is clearly what they thought - it may be stupid, but it isn't wrong in what they thought.

[KG215]

Perkins averaged 10.1 ppg in 2009-2010.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/perkike01.html

The Thunder thought a combination of Perkins with more scoring, Ibaka with more scoring, and Martin providing some of the scoring lost from Harden leaving would be either be the same of what they got with Harden or even more than what they got with Harden and the Thunder.

This is clearly what they thought - it may be stupid, but it isn't wrong in what they thought.
I'm just speculating so this isn't me stating things as fact, but by trading Harden I think Presti was trusting his instincts in evaluating, drafting, and developing players...and so far it looks like he's still really damn good at doing just that. Reggie is already looking like 2012 James Harden-lite, Lamb is already better than anyone else that came off the bench in 2012 wen OKC made the Finals, Adams is already a serviceable center at 20 years old, Perry Jones has looked good in the spot minutes he's gotten, and you've still got the mainstay, blue collar/under the radar vet in Nick Collison. The team is deeper than it's ever been and arguably the most athletic and versatile they've ever been.

And Ibaka is averaging 15-10-3 this year and his all-around defense is much improved. That's more than solid and good enough for a 3rd option, especially one who's playing along side two top 10 players; yet you claim Ibaka hasn't developed into a consistent third option.

I guess I can't say I'm surprised you're talking out of your ass. It's what you do: pretend you're an expert and know what you're talking about, but more often than not you're completely clueless. To infer that OKC thought Harden leaving would give Perkins more opportunities? Really? Perkins has had an ACL surgery since the 2010 season and is clearly nowhere close to that same player. He's gone from being a very serviceable/slightly above average starting center in Boston to arguably the worst starter in the entire NBA.

[KG215]

why do people insist on ignoring the fact that the Thunder were better in 13 than they were in 12 by just about every measure?

why do people insist on pretending that Westbrook didn't get hurt?

I've said it from day 1...I don't like the idea in basketball terms of having 3 ball dominant perimeter players. It doesn't make much sense basketball wise...and even worse...was bound to cause controversy (as we already saw) between harden and westbrook.

The Thunder are better now and have a better team in terms of fit than they did in 12.

I still think we would have seen the Thunder win the title last year if not for the Westbrook injury.

It's kind of funny. Harden is the exact type of player the Thunder don't need. They need solid defensive minded role players that don't need the ball a ton to be effective...and they need better bigs.
People also think OKC will never be as good as they were in 2012 because they no longer have "three top 10 players". It's almost as if those people aren't aware that Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka were 22-23 years old in 2012, and I guess thought they had already peaked.

[dunksby]

Adams' average speed on the floor is 4.4 miles/h per game.

[DMAVS41]

People also think OKC will never be as good as they were in 2012 because they no longer have "three top 10 players". It's almost as if those people aren't aware that Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka were 22-23 years old in 2012, and I guess thought they had already peaked.

That is because people are often stupid and just watch ESPN and get their opinions there.

It's pathetic honestly. Nobody in their right mind would be saying that the Thunder right now should trade for another high volume guard scorer that plays no defense.

People should just think about it that way. Nobody would think Harden is the answer for the Thunder. Lamb and Adams actually fill roles needed on the Thunder.

The trade was actually far better than people give Presti credit for. It did everything they wanted. Made them a legit contender last year with Martin...and then allowed them to move to their young players while staying a contender this year and beyond.

This is all so stupid honestly...Westbrook suffers the first injury he's ever had in his life...and somehow Presti is a moron. Makes no sense.

[Blue&Orange]

Lamb is playing pretty well, he was trash during summer league. Adams is not a surprise, for a while i hoped the Knicks could get him.

[chips93]

It's pathetic honestly. Nobody in their right mind would be saying that the Thunder right now should trade for another high volume guard scorer that plays no defense.

People should just think about it that way. Nobody would think Harden is the answer for the Thunder. Lamb and Adams actually fill roles needed on the Thunder.

i agree with you completely, except for this one part.

because that is who harden is now, but thats not who he was back in 2012.

i havent watched as muc thunder games as KG215, or the other thunder fans on the board, but iirc harden wasnt a laughing stock on defense, like he is now, back in 2012. he even guarded lebron for a couple minutes in the finals. not like he shut him down, but he didnt get embarrassed. he was solid defensively.

and he wasnt as ball dominant back then either. he played pretty well as a third wheel i thought, spacing the floor when russ and kd were playing, and carrying the offense when they werent.

he definitely had great value for them, although i agree, there is real diminishing returns, when you have that third ball handler/creator, and they were never gonna get full value from him.

[KG215]

That is because people are often stupid and just watch ESPN and get their opinions there.

It's pathetic honestly. Nobody in their right mind would be saying that the Thunder right now should trade for another high volume guard scorer that plays no defense.

People should just think about it that way. Nobody would think Harden is the answer for the Thunder. Lamb and Adams actually fill roles needed on the Thunder.

The trade was actually far better than people give Presti credit for. It did everything they wanted. Made them a legit contender last year with Martin...and then allowed them to move to their young players while staying a contender this year and beyond.

This is all so stupid honestly...Westbrook suffers the first injury he's ever had in his life...and somehow Presti is a moron. Makes no sense.
What I like the most about the Lamb/Jackson combo off the bench is that they're young players who are sort of getting to develop and "grow up" together. They're already developing good chemistry playing off each other. The way I see it is that OKC has the luxury right now of being able to groom and develop a 21 year old second year player and a 23 year old third year player, a duo I think could be a pretty solid starting backcourt for an NBA team.

It's kind of like a team currently in tank/rebuild mode getting to watch Jackson and Lamb as their starting backcourt develop while showing flashes of being promising young players; but OKC is getting to do it while bringing them off the bench while remaining in contention for an NBA championship. I saw another OKC fan put it this way on another message board. It sort of feels like 2008 and 2009 again where we're getting to watch several young, exciting players with good potential develop and grow up, except this time we aren't losing a ton of games and they have talented vets like KD, Russ, Serge, Nick, etc. to play behind and groom them.

Hopefully we're able to re-sign Jackson after next year -- he's still on his rookie contract through the 2014-2015 season. It should be much more doable since he won't demand as much as Harden and Perkins' terrible contract will finally be off the books.

[DMAVS41]

i agree with you completely, except for this one part.

because that is who harden is now, but thats not who he was back in 2012.

i havent watched as muc thunder games as KG215, or the other thunder fans on the board, but iirc harden wasnt a laughing stock on defense, like he is now, back in 2012. he even guarded lebron for a couple minutes in the finals. not like he shut him down, but he didnt get embarrassed. he was solid defensively.

and he wasnt as ball dominant back then either. he played pretty well as a third wheel i thought, spacing the floor when russ and kd were playing, and carrying the offense when they werent.

he definitely had great value for them, although i agree, there is real diminishing returns, when you have that third ball handler/creator, and they were never gonna get full value from him.

I wasn't really talking about now...

You are right that Harden used to be a better defender and less ball dominant, but in order to actually get value out of Harden at anywhere optimal levels...he needs to be ball dominant or play big minutes

And like you say, that leads to diminishing returns because all that does is take away touches from two better players in the long run.

[DMAVS41]

What I like the most about the Lamb/Jackson combo off the bench is that they're young players who are sort of getting to develop and "grow up" together. They're already developing good chemistry playing off each other. The way I see it is that OKC has the luxury right now of being able to groom and develop a 21 year old second year player and a 23 year old third year player, a duo I think could be a pretty solid starting backcourt for an NBA team.

It's kind of like a team currently in tank/rebuild mode getting to watch Jackson and Lamb as their starting backcourt develop while showing flashes of being promising young players; but OKC is getting to do it while bringing them off the bench while remaining in contention for an NBA championship. I saw another OKC fan put it this way on another message board. It sort of feels like 2008 and 2009 again where we're getting to watch several young, exciting players with good potential develop and grow up, except this time we aren't losing a ton of games and they have talented vets like KD, Russ, Serge, Nick, etc. to play behind and groom them.

exactly. the trade allowed them to address needs while remaining a top contender.

if WB doesn't get hurt last year...I really think the Thunder were winning. We of course don't know for sure, but people need to remember just how good the Thunder were last year.

They were the favorites to win the West...and I would have loved their chances beating a broken down and slumping Heat team.

[KG215]

i agree with you completely, except for this one part.

because that is who harden is now, but thats not who he was back in 2012.

i havent watched as muc thunder games as KG215, or the other thunder fans on the board, but iirc harden wasnt a laughing stock on defense, like he is now, back in 2012. he even guarded lebron for a couple minutes in the finals. not like he shut him down, but he didnt get embarrassed. he was solid defensively.

and he wasnt as ball dominant back then either. he played pretty well as a third wheel i thought, spacing the floor when russ and kd were playing, and carrying the offense when they werent.

he definitely had great value for them, although i agree, there is real diminishing returns, when you have that third ball handler/creator, and they were never gonna get full value from him.
Eh...Harden showed flashes of being a solid defender at times, but he was a bad to terrible defender more often than not while in OKC. And no, he wasn't necessarily as ball dominant in OKC as he is now, but he was most effective with the ball in his hands which, in turn, lessened Durant's and Westbrook's impact to an extent when all three were on the floor at the same time since both of them are most effective with the ball in their hands.

[hawkfan]

I'm just speculating so this isn't me stating things as fact, but by trading Harden I think Presti was trusting his instincts in evaluating, drafting, and developing players...and so far it looks like he's still really damn good at doing just that. Reggie is already looking like 2012 James Harden-lite, Lamb is already better than anyone else that came off the bench in 2012 wen OKC made the Finals, Adams is already a serviceable center at 20 years old, Perry Jones has looked good in the spot minutes he's gotten, and you've still got the mainstay, blue collar/under the radar vet in Nick Collison. The team is deeper than it's ever been and arguably the most athletic and versatile they've ever been.

And Ibaka is averaging 15-10-3 this year and his all-around defense is much improved. That's more than solid and good enough for a 3rd option, especially one who's playing along side two top 10 players; yet you claim Ibaka hasn't developed into a consistent third option.

I guess I can't say I'm surprised you're talking out of your ass. It's what you do: pretend you're an expert and know what you're talking about, but more often than not you're completely clueless. To infer that OKC thought Harden leaving would give Perkins more opportunities? Really? Perkins has had an ACL surgery since the 2010 season and is clearly nowhere close to that same player. He's gone from being a very serviceable/slightly above average starting center in Boston to arguably the worst starter in the entire NBA.

I wouldn't say I'm an expert. Maybe you think you are - maybe you're not.

For me, Thunder standards are getting back into the Finals. Was Ibaka a consistent enough scorer last year to get the team to the Finals? No. He's a good fourth option.

The Thunder's best fourth for a consistent 3rd option is Lamb, but he is young and developing. He needs time and experience.

I wouldn't stay Perkins was going to be a 12.0 ppg guy, but having at least some more consistent games of scoring where he could get his average up to 8.0 ppg was not out of the question with Harden gone.

That hasn't happened.

[2LeTTeRS]

I wouldn't stay Perkins was going to be a 12.0 ppg guy, but having at least some more consistent games of scoring where he could get his average up to 8.0 ppg was not out of the question with Harden gone.

That hasn't happened.

Have you watched Perk since he's been in OKC? No exec was going to depend on him to put points on the board. Even at his best he only was capable of putting up points via garbage buckets and he's regressed horribly since then.

[KG215]

For me, Thunder standards are getting back into the Finals. Was Ibaka a consistent enough scorer last year to get the team to the Finals? No. He's a good fourth option.
Isn't in possible that Ibaka, who's just 24 years old, is better this year than he was last year? Right now his play certainly says so.


The Thunder's best fourth for a consistent 3rd option is Lamb, but he is young and developing. He needs time and experience.
No, OKC's best option for a consistent 3rd/4th scorer off the bench right now is Reggie Jackson, you know, the guy who averaged 15 PPG on 47% FG and 58% TS as a starter last year in the playoffs after Westbrook got hurt.


I wouldn't stay Perkins was going to be a 12.0 ppg guy, but having at least some more consistent games of scoring where he could get his average up to 8.0 ppg was not out of the question with Harden gone.

That hasn't happened.
It absolutely was out of the question and painfully obvious to anyone that had watched OKC and Perkins since 2011 or so.

[KungFuJoe]

In related news, Divac for Kobe turned out to be pretty good for the Lakers.

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

This. You just don't trade away a player as talented as Harden if you don't get better.

You don't but if the player wants to leave and you can't afford it then you get something back in return.

I'm sure they didn't wake up one day just thinking hey I want to trade James Harden. There was some thought and doubts that he wanted to be there. Or maybe they couldn't afford him.

Anyways OKC will be in the FINALS this year. THAT IS A LOCK

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

why do people insist on ignoring the fact that the Thunder were better in 13 than they were in 12 by just about every measure?

why do people insist on pretending that Westbrook didn't get hurt?

I've said it from day 1...I don't like the idea in basketball terms of having 3 ball dominant perimeter players. It doesn't make much sense basketball wise...and even worse...was bound to cause controversy (as we already saw) between harden and westbrook.

The Thunder are better now and have a better team in terms of fit than they did in 12.

I still think we would have seen the Thunder win the title last year if not for the Westbrook injury.

It's kind of funny. Harden is the exact type of player the Thunder don't need. They need solid defensive minded role players that don't need the ball a ton to be effective...and they need better bigs.

People seem to have short term memory here. Some people are just borderline "special" in a bad way.

[Mr Exlax]

Bump?

[Springsteen]

Bump?

Give me a break. What would Harden do to help OKC right now?

They'd probably be down by 40 if he was out there defending with them.

[Mr Exlax]

Give me a break. What would Harden do to help OKC right now?

They'd probably be down by 40 if he was out there defending with them.


Soo

[Springsteen]

[QUOTE=Mr Exlax]Soo

[MJ(Mean John)]

Damn. IF they would have traded Harden for Iggy AND a combo of some guys like Nick Young, Thaddeus Young, Evan Turner, Dorell Wright.

Imagine?
Surrounding Durant & WB with Iggy? Defensive Beast who can actually ball handle and score! Haha. So can Wright and Turner.

Or even With the Rox, took Asik.

Or trade for Aafflalo. They really need a 2way player.

Or Ariza would have been perfect

[Mr Exlax]

What are you even saying? This series became lopsided when OKC's defensive anchor got injured.

Perhaps you think Harden could draw offensive fouls near the basket to replace Ibaka? I'm sure you know how good he is at flopping.

I dunno if you can't comprehend or not. I don't give a shit about the outcome of these games. I'm comparing Steven Adams to James Harden like the OP is doing. You're shortbus special dude.