would Michael Jordan would have won without Scottie Pippen?

[riseagainst]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGuiu88Bwbs


"There is a myth out there that Michael Jordan may not have won without Scottie Pippen. In 1997/98, at 35 years of age and with an injured index finger, Jordan was required to lead the Bulls without Scottie Pippen for the first 35 games of the season. The Bulls started 12-9 before they turned it around, winning eight straight and 11 of 12 after they returned home in December. When Pippen returned in mid January the Bulls were 24-11 and even after Pippen's return it was still Jordan carrying them.

Again in 'Game 6' of the 1998 NBA Finals with Scottie Pippen being virtually useless with a bad back it was, once again, up to Jordan. A game in which he practically held off the Jazz alone, finishing with 45 points in taking 15 of the Bulls' 19 free throws and 35 of their 67 shots. He scored 16 points in the fourth quarter and made all eight of his free throws. Jordan and the Bulls won their sixth championship with Jordan winning his sixth Finals MVP award. "I didn't think he could top that game," Phil Jackson said refering to the Flu Game. "He topped it tonight. I think it was the best performance I've seen in a critical situation and critical game in a series."


SCOTTIE PIPPEN'S ROLE ON THE TEAM
Scottie Pippen enabled Michael Jordan to carry less of the load. Pippen's ability to guard an offensive player, enabled Jordan to safely freelance in the lanes for steals and the fast break that broke most teams. Because if Jordan gambled wrong on defense, Pippen would be there to help and vice versa. It was also Pippen who directed the triangle offense, enabling Jordan to get in position on the wing to attack the defense. Relieving Jordan of the duty of distributing the ball.

It wasn't that Pippen could do things Jordan couldn't, or wouldn't, it was that he relieved Jordan of having to play every role on the team. Jordan may not have won all six championships without Pippen but he certainly would have won multiple championships without him.
"


:bowdown: :bowdown:

:applause: :applause:

[Crafty]

Never heard this one before.

[Trollsmasher]

He does not even have a winning record without Pip.

[TheCorporation]

Teams win Championships.

MJ and Scottie were a team.

[kamil]

He does not even have a winning record without Pip.

False.

You don't have much to prove this idiotic theory since there isn't enough of a sample to show the difference between a team with pippen and workout AFTER he was drafted. Basically your only sample data is from before the bulls acquired him which is irrelevant.

Nice try, bron* stan.

[BigTicket]

No, he would not.

If you took away Pippen, Jordan would not have 6 championships.

There's no shame in that, every great player has had great teammates, and basketball is a team sport.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Would the BULLS have won without Scottie Pippen? Tough to say. Maybe 1/2 but not the dynasty that they were.

[Random_Guy]

No, he would not.

If you took away Pippen, Jordan would not have 6 championships.

There's no shame in that, every great player has had great teammates, and basketball is a team sport.
this

[And1AllDay]

Jordan and Pippen together were amazing. It'd be a crime to even hypothetically split them up. 6 for 6 in Finals Appearances? Christ. Amazing :bowdown:

[Trollsmasher]

False.

You don't have much to prove this idiotic theory since there isn't enough of a sample to show the difference between a team with pippen and workout AFTER he was drafted. Basically your only sample data is from before the bulls acquired him which is irrelevant.

Nice try, bron* stan.
He does not even have a winning record without Pip.

Denial of facts is pathetic

[guy]

He does not even have a winning record without Pip.

Denial of facts is pathetic

Actually you're wrong. When you take into account games when Pippen was missing, which means taking account after 1987, overall Jordan has a winning record without Pippen.

[Kblaze8855]

Actually you're wrong. When you take into account games when Pippen was missing, which means taking account after 1987, overall Jordan has a winning record without Pippen.

How is he wrong when you just decided to count a different set of games Pippen wasnt there for?

Pippen was playing or he wasnt. It doesnt matter where he was far as if what he was is true or not.


Anyway....I dont think any team to win a title since the 60s wins it without its second best player. Maybe......maaaaaybe one or two of the Magic/Bird title teams but even those are unlikely.

Even the no clear #1 teams lost too much. The 04 pistons minus Big Ben or Billups arent winning no matter how well balanced they were.

[guy]

How is he wrong when you just decided to count a different set of games Pippen wasnt there for?

Pippen was playing or he wasnt. It doesnt matter where he was far as if what he was is true or not.


Anyway....I dont think any team to win a title since the 60s wins it without its second best player. Maybe......maaaaaybe one or two of the Magic/Bird title teams but even those are unlikely.

Even the no clear #1 teams lost too much. The 04 pistons minus Big Ben or Billups arent winning no matter how well balanced they were.

Huh? Umm he wasn't playing.

Jordan without Pippen:
1985 38-44
1986 9-9
1987 40-42
1988 1-2
1989 4-5
1993 1-0
1995 1-0
1996 5-0
1998 26-12
2002 30-30
2003 37-45

Overall: 192-189

[Psileas]

It wasn't that Pippen could do things Jordan couldn't, or wouldn't, it was that he relieved Jordan of having to play every role on the team. Jordan may not have won all six championships without Pippen but he certainly would have won multiple championships without him.

Before you proceed to such certainties, you have to provide at least some hard evidence, and unfortunatelly a streak of 12 games of great basketball without Pippen and a great playoff game with Pippen playing limited minutes (not even being absent) is way too little, especially the playoff sample and (even more) especially if you take into account that that '98 team needed 7 games to beat the Pacers with Pippen and that with Pippen partially inactive in Game 6, it took such a game from Jordan in order to keep the Bulls alive.

[Kblaze8855]

I assumed you meant only counting games after 87. Misunderstanding.

[Harison]

Jordan definitely would have won some rings w/o Pippen, just maybe not 6.

Lets not forget Pippen was made by MJ to become the player we remember today. If not this sidekick, it could have been someone else, and we would have the same thread "would MJ have won without xxx?"

[Trollsmasher]

Huh? Umm he wasn't playing.

Jordan without Pippen:
1985 38-44
1986 9-9
1987 40-42
1988 1-2
1989 4-5
1993 1-0
1995 1-0
1996 5-0
1998 26-12
2002 30-30
2003 37-45

Overall: 192-189
Now count in PO games and it becomes 194-198

It's clear who brought winning into this pairing

[Smoke117]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGuiu88Bwbs


"There is a myth out there that Michael Jordan may not have won without Scottie Pippen. In 1997/98, at 35 years of age and with an injured index finger, Jordan was required to lead the Bulls without Scottie Pippen for the first 35 games of the season. The Bulls started 12-9 before they turned it around, winning eight straight and 11 of 12 after they returned home in December. When Pippen returned in mid January the Bulls were 24-11 and even after Pippen's return it was still Jordan carrying them.

Again in 'Game 6' of the 1998 NBA Finals with Scottie Pippen being virtually useless with a bad back it was, once again, up to Jordan. A game in which he practically held off the Jazz alone, finishing with 45 points in taking 15 of the Bulls' 19 free throws and 35 of their 67 shots. He scored 16 points in the fourth quarter and made all eight of his free throws. Jordan and the Bulls won their sixth championship with Jordan winning his sixth Finals MVP award. "I didn't think he could top that game," Phil Jackson said refering to the Flu Game. "He topped it tonight. I think it was the best performance I've seen in a critical situation and critical game in a series."


SCOTTIE PIPPEN'S ROLE ON THE TEAM
Scottie Pippen enabled Michael Jordan to carry less of the load. Pippen's ability to guard an offensive player, enabled Jordan to safely freelance in the lanes for steals and the fast break that broke most teams. Because if Jordan gambled wrong on defense, Pippen would be there to help and vice versa. It was also Pippen who directed the triangle offense, enabling Jordan to get in position on the wing to attack the defense. Relieving Jordan of the duty of distributing the ball.

It wasn't that Pippen could do things Jordan couldn't, or wouldn't, it was that he relieved Jordan of having to play every role on the team. Jordan may not have won all six championships without Pippen but he certainly would have won multiple championships without him.
"


:bowdown: :bowdown:

:applause: :applause:

I just find this funny for bringing up the 98 finals. Before Pippen hurt his back, he was pegged as the FMVP going into game 5 when the Bulls were up 3-1 because of his game changing defense and all around performance up to then, but I guess he didn't do much vs the Jazz at all in the 98 finals. :rolleyes: They wouldn't have won shit if Pippen wasn't an integral part of 3 of those 4 wins vs the Jazz.

[Kblaze8855]

Lets not forget Pippen was made by MJ to become the player we remember today.

Scottie Pippen was a top 5 pick in the draft not some undrafted kid who made his way to the league from the CBA.

[guy]

Now count in PO games and it becomes 194-198

It's clear who brought winning into this pairing

Ummm since when did we ever combine playoff and regular season records? And I highly doubt that's what you were including when you initially said that, and neither do most. A lot of great players have losing records in the playoffs just cause they happen to play better teams during that time.

The observation is stupid and misleading regardless because of its implication that Pippen was actually more important then Jordan, which is what you're stupidly implying here as well.

[Harison]

Scottie Pippen was a top 5 pick in the draft not some undrafted kid who made his way to the league from the CBA.

You missed my point, Pippen would have never been as great as we know him now, thats a fact. I didnt said he wouldnt have been an All-star somewhere else.

[Kblaze8855]

Jordan would have been as great as he became with Pippen and ive heard it from his mouth. Greatness is an abstract concept anyway.

Im sure having Jordan helped Scottie and having Pippen to play with and against in practice helped Jordan.

But it does nothing to diminish either of them. This isnt golf.

Its 5 on 5. You play together. You learn to bend your game to suit others. they help you you help them.

But nobody is created by another man. Especially not high lottery picks....

[Smoke117]

Why is this even a thread? There is already a thread down playing Pippen, so isn't that enough. If anything playing with Jordan and the Bulls lessened his stats because the Bulls played at such a slow pace. The triangle offense wasn't exactly geared to his assets as a basketball player. He's pretty easily one of the five greatest transition players offensively, yet the Bulls weren't a run and gun team where he could really show his ability. Most of the fast breaks you see in highlights of him and Jordan are based off the fact that they played excellent defense. A good comparison is Drexler on the Blazers. They played at a fast pace and Drexler scored 25+ regularly. You could switch him with Pippen and he'd do the same thing. Their abilities are very close as scorers.

[iamgine]

The answer is depends. They had to replace Pippen with somebody right? Can't have only 4 players on the court.

If they replaced Pippen with Martell Webster then no they're not winning anything.

If they replaced Pippen with Iguodala then MAYBE they'd win one or two by luck.

If they replaced Pippen with David Robinson then MJ had a great chance to win 6...maybe more.

[Rose'sACL]

You missed my point, Pippen would have never been as great as we know him now, thats a fact. I didnt said he wouldnt have been an All-star somewhere else.
are you kidding me? paul george is probably by most estimates a pippen like player with better 3 pt shooting. he didn't need a superstar on his team to improve.
Guys like you are the reason basketball players have the most successful sneaker lines among all athletes.

[Harison]

are you kidding me? paul george is probably by most estimates a pippen like player with better 3 pt shooting. he didn't need a superstar on his team to improve.
Guys like you are the reason basketball players have the most successful sneaker lines among all athletes.

Not even sure whats your point. Pippen wouldnt have become as great defender if he didnt had a fire-breathing GOAT in countless drills and practices. You either step up to GOAT's standards or crash and burn.

The idea that players always maximize the potential regardless of circumstances is just weird. No wonder you speak about some sneaker lines :D

[bond10]

inb4 97 Bulls's shitstorm with paragraphs on the 94 season and the importance of well rounded abilities.

[bond10]

No, he would not.

If you took away Pippen, Jordan would not have 6 championships.

There's no shame in that, every great player has had great teammates, and basketball is a team sport.

Depends on who you replace Pippen with...

[Vertical-24]

Basketball is a team sport and in order to win championships, the team as a whole has to be playing championship level basketball. Jordan and Pippen were a match made in heaven. Jordan's competitive, hard-nosed style of leadership was complimented and assisted by Pippen's more laid-back leadership mentality. It was almost like a yin-yang thing, one would be overbearing without the other.

Pippen offered MJ relief when it came to playmaking, defensive responsibility and scoring. He was the ideal second option and helped make winning a lot easier for Michael. Without Pip, i'd project MJ to win 4 rings max. Probably 2-3 to be realistic.

This is assuming that Phil is still the coach and Pip is replaced by a serviceable 2nd option.

[NumberSix]

Who's replacing Scottie?

[LAZERUSS]

The reality was, MJ didn't win anything until he had quality TEAMMATES. His 92-93 team went 57-25, and won a title in game six on a clutch basket by Paxson. Jordan "retired", and the Bulls went 55-27, and lost a close game seven to a 56-26 Knicks team that would go on to lose a close game seven to a 58-24 Houston team.

And fans forget that MJ came back the next season, HEALTHY, and played the last 17 games of the regular season. He was certainly playoff-ready by the time the playoffs rolled around. But, without Horace Grant, he couldn't lead the Bulls past Orlando.

And his second "three-peat" roster was easily the best in the league. I suspect that they very well could have contended for a title without him.

No doubt that MJ was a great player, but for those that honestly believe he was walking on water, he wasn't even the first player taken in the draft (nor the second.) In his first year his team went 38-44. Even in his third season, and with him shotjacking, his team only went 40-42. In his first three playoff series, his team's went 1-9 (and never beat Boston in a game.) And he didn't get to the Finals until his seventh season.

And, in his last three Finals, he shot .455, .427, and .415 from the field. The man had his flaws, and needed exceptional teammates to win those six rings.

[guy]

The answer is depends. They had to replace Pippen with somebody right? Can't have only 4 players on the court.

If they replaced Pippen with Martell Webster then no they're not winning anything.

If they replaced Pippen with Iguodala then MAYBE they'd win one or two by luck.

If they replaced Pippen with David Robinson then MJ had a great chance to win 6...maybe more.

Maybe win 1 or 2 by luck with Iguodala? Who would beat them and/or be considered favorites over them? I don't see why they wouldn't win 4 or 5 with 07-14 Iggy from 91-98. They wouldn't be as good and won't break any records, and they would be much worse in 94 and 95, but I don't see how they're not the best team during that time.

[0000000]

Scottie came closer to winning the championship without Jordan than vice versa.

[iamgine]

Maybe win 1 or 2 by luck with Iguodala? Who would beat them and/or be considered favorites over them? I don't see why they wouldn't win 4 or 5 with 07-14 Iggy from 91-98. They wouldn't be as good and won't break any records, and they would be much worse in 94 and 95, but I don't see how they're not the best team during that time.
Umm why would they? Iguodala was not that good. Many teams can beat them.

[guy]

Umm why would they? Iguodala was not that good. Many teams can beat them.

From 91-93 and 96-98, who? I don't see them not having an elite and one of the best offenses and defenses still, not being one of the best closeout teams and one of the mentally toughest, and I don't see any new flaws or any of their existing flaws being that much worse.

[fpliii]

Just remove him? Zero rings, maybe 1.

Replace him with an all-star SF who can play in the triangle, probably a couple.

[Xiao Yao You]

yes

[OldSchoolBBall]

He easily wins multiple titles without Pippen, but with another all-star. Not 6 perhaps (depends on who the replacement is), but at least 2-3. He was too good not to. Hell, if he paired with someone like Hakeem or Barkley from '86 onward he's have 6+. Even if he paired with Drexler I think he'd have 4+ ('89-'93, possibly '96).

[Micku]

The reality was, MJ didn't win anything until he had quality TEAMMATES. His 92-93 team went 57-25, and won a title in game six on a clutch basket by Paxson. Jordan "retired", and the Bulls went 55-27, and lost a close game seven to a 56-26 Knicks team that would go on to lose a close game seven to a 58-24 Houston team.

And fans forget that MJ came back the next season, HEALTHY, and played the last 17 games of the regular season. He was certainly playoff-ready by the time the playoffs rolled around. But, without Horace Grant, he couldn't lead the Bulls past Orlando.

And his second "three-peat" roster was easily the best in the league. I suspect that they very well could have contended for a title without him.

No doubt that MJ was a great player, but for those that honestly believe he was walking on water, he wasn't even the first player taken in the draft (nor the second.) In his first year his team went 38-44. Even in his third season, and with him shotjacking, his team only went 40-42. In his first three playoff series, his team's went 1-9 (and never beat Boston in a game.) And he didn't get to the Finals until his seventh season.

And, in his last three Finals, he shot .455, .427, and .415 from the field. The man had his flaws, and needed exceptional teammates to win those six rings.

I don't think so. I think they were the better coached and the most suited to their roles. But not the most talented and didn't have more potential than some rosters. That would be the Lakers of 97 and 98 with four all stars with Shaq, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, and Kobe. You still had Rick Fox, Fisher, Campbell and Robert Horry on that team. Along with a pretty solid bench. The Magic of the 90s were also very talented. Give the Lakers Phil Jackson and Tex Winter, and they 3peat (which they did with a less talented team).

Back on topic:

Who's replacing Pippen? Pippen was key to the Bulls success. He would need somebody of a similar talent level. Give him Alonzo Mourning.

Anyway, he'll probably win without Pippen given the right cast and if he still had Phil Jackson as a coach.

[LAZERUSS]

I don't think so. I think they were the better coached and the most suited to their roles. But not the most talented and didn't have more potential than some rosters. That would be the Lakers of 97 and 98 with four all stars with Shaq, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, and Kobe. You still had Rick Fox, Fisher, Campbell and Robert Horry on that team. Along with a pretty solid bench. The Magic of the 90s were also very talented. Give the Lakers Phil Jackson and Tex Winter, and they 3peat (which they did with a less talented team).

Back on topic:

Who's replacing Pippen? Pippen was key to the Bulls success. He would need somebody of a similar talent level. Give him Alonzo Mourning.

Anyway, he'll probably win without Pippen given the right cast and if he still had Phil Jackson as a coach.

I can't argue with any of this...

Good post.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He easily wins multiple titles without Pippen, but with another all-star. Not 6 perhaps (depends on who the replacement is), but at least 2-3. He was too good not to. Hell, if he paired with someone like Hakeem or Barkley from '86 onward he's have 6+. Even if he paired with Drexler I think he'd have 4+ ('89-'93, possibly '96).
Most accurate guess if there was to be one in this thread. Anyone acting like MJ wouldn't have won without Pippen is kidding themselves. As long as the level of talent was comparable, or possible even better. Or deeper pool of talent surrounding Mike. Pippen on the other hand, do you see him winning a championship with a player clearly inferior to himself? Because I don't. Same goes for the likes of Pau Gasol. Not everyone is as fortunate as LeBron, to literally stack the deck with another star player, in addition to a same tier level MVP caliber player.

[guy]

He easily wins multiple titles without Pippen, but with another all-star. Not 6 perhaps (depends on who the replacement is), but at least 2-3. He was too good not to. Hell, if he paired with someone like Hakeem or Barkley from '86 onward he's have 6+. Even if he paired with Drexler I think he'd have 4+ ('89-'93, possibly '96).

What makes you think he wouldn't be able to win with Drexler in 96, 97, and 98?

[OldSchoolBBall]

What makes you think he wouldn't be able to win with Drexler in 96, 97, and 98?

Drexler had fallen off by then imo.

[guy]

Drexler had fallen off by then imo.

Clearly he did and he was definitely not as good as Pippen but I don't think he was that much worse that it doesn't make the Bulls the favorites in those years anymore.

[97 bulls]

Jordan could've won in the right situation just as any other great player. Even if a player like Iguodala replaced Pippen. Would the Bulls have won as much or set all thise records? No.

[riseagainst]

this thread isn't to downplay Pippen btw. Pippen is top 25 all time no doubt imo, at worst top 30. Just putting things into perspective.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

this thread isn't to downplay Pippen btw. Pippen is top 25 all time no doubt imo, at worst top 30. Just putting things into perspective.
No this thread is to downplay Jordan though.