prime dirk vs current durant?

[Random_Guy]

Who would you take?

[Trollsmasher]

The one who is not a second option.

[crunk-juice]

who the hell is Current Durant

[NLZ]

Durant... better stats while playing better defense.
Durant is the 2nd best player after LeBron.

Dirk was what, top 6-7? Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Duncan etc etc were always better.

[dr.hee]

Depends on how the team looks like. They're playing different positions after all, so you can't simply compare them 1 vs 1.

Durant can do more things obviously and produce bigger numbers. On the other hand, Dirk has a kind of impact that's very unique and can't be measured by his shooting numbers alone. A 7 footer with that kind of skillset is just messing up any defensive scheme. The 2006 team had no business coming out of the West that year. And the 2011 Mavs (while getting underrated in terms of depth) were good, but not that great either. I'd argue the success of those teams is very specific to the things Dirk brings to the table and I don't see another big man doing the same with that type of roster. Just like you probably won't win with Dirk on any of the Spurs championship teams instead of Duncan.

So I'd say Durant right now is better than Dirk ever was individually, but it's still not so clear who I'd pick. There are scenarios where Dirk is a better choice imo.

[R.I.P.]

Durant... better stats while playing better defense.
Durant is the 2nd best player after LeBron.

Dirk was what, top 6-7? Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Duncan etc etc were always better.

:oldlol:

[Fresh Kid]

Kevin Durant is better but at tha same time I would choose prime dirk simply cuz he never had a westbrook type player:no:

[Alan Ogg]

Durant... better stats while playing better defense.
Durant is the 2nd best player after LeBron.

Dirk was what, top 6-7? Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Duncan etc etc were always better.

Right, except for the '06-'07 when Dirk won MVP, oh and '04-'05 and '05-'06 when he came in 3rd in MVP voting. And '09-'12. The Finals MVP in '11 was okay too.

[dunksby]

Prime Dirk was a beast, he was always there making his presence known among the elite players. I take Durant because his higher ceiling and diversity of his game.

[knickballer]

For sure Dirk. Carrying JJ Barrea, 40 year old J-kidd w/ arthritis, etc, to a ring. Always had a subpar supporting cast but always made them play above their ability.

I also laugh at the fools who think Garnett is a better player than Dirk. Not then and definitely not now.

[Kblaze8855]

Always had a subpar supporting cast but always made them play above their ability.

There was maybe an 8 year stretch where not one person on the planet said that and an 11 year stretch nobody should have.


That said....

Probably Dirk. There are teams id take Durant on but generally if I didnt know who I could pair him with id take Dirk in 01-11 form.

[VIntageNOvel]

how is this even a question :facepalm

32 years old dirk > prime lebron > current durant

therefore

prime dirk >>>>

the only reason why dirk never get into goat discussion is because he's unlucky enough to be at the same era with kobe and duncan

[DMAVS41]

Dirk

Just because he never had a team around him as good as Durante has had since 12

So Durante has to prove he can win/lead in playoffs more

Really close though imo

[R.I.P.]

how is this even a question :facepalm

32 years old dirk > prime lebron > current durant

therefore

prime dirk >>>>

the only reason why dirk never get into goat discussion is because he's unlucky enough to be at the same era with kobe and duncan

....and the fact that while Dirk had many very good teammates it

[MavsSuperFan]

The one who is not a second option.
:lol :applause:

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=R.I.P.]....and the fact that while Dirk had many very good teammates it

[Bigsmoke]

Kevin Durant is better but at tha same time I would choose prime dirk simply cuz he never had a westbrook type player:no:

Steve Nash?



While dirk played with talent, it was often the wrong talent or poor coaching or both

People forget about Avery... Does anyone think the Mavis blow the finals or lose to the warriors with pat Riley coaching us?

And the one year the team was stacked... At least offensively... Dirk got hurt in the wcf

Scott Brooks is even worse than Avery and Nelson. U cant blame the coach for Dirk underperforming in that Warriors series

[DMAVS41]

Steve Nash?




Scott Brooks is even worse than Avery and Nelson. U cant blame the coach for Dirk underperforming in that Warriors series

Mavs Nash wasn't as good as wb actually... And he was constantly hurt as well


Totally agree about Brooks being worse than Nellie,but Avery was as bad or worse

I'm not blaming Avery for how dirk played, but I do blame him mostly for the team losing. Nelson and Riley ran circles around him and was the biggest reason we lost those series IMO

My point was that coaching remains vastly under-rated here. And you are spot on with Brooks.

[FKAri]

Durant. He is just so easy ot build around even if he isn't necessarily the better player.

[Mr Know It All]

It is pretty much a coin toss in terms of statistical output. Dirk has played longer so he obviously has the better resume right now, but Durant is an absolute scoring machine. One of the few guys in the NBA right now who I could legitimately see challenging Kareem or Malone for the top two spots in points (barring any injuries of course).

Both guys are almost impossible to guard one on one, though Dirk has the superior post game (being 7 feet doesn't hurt).

[SCdac]

I'd go with Durant... but it's even. Both are great and not great at certain things.

Like Durant's all around game better, abilities to put the ball on the floor, has some good playoff experience at a young age, seems less soft to me despite living at the FT line, easier piece to build around position-wise and doesn't seem to be done growing as a player.

For Dirk, I prefer his three point shooting.. and him working out of the post (midrange) as I think he improved in that area greatly from 2007-now, but I'm not fond of his defensive skills and I felt he shied away from the paint/could be bodied too much in his prime and forced into jumpers.

[Chuckbrook]

It's close, but I love the way Dirk strokes that ball.

-Brook

[Fudge]

It's close, but I love the way Dirk strokes that ball.

-Brook
He strokes it so good.

That said, i'll take Durgawd.

[Pointguard]

I have Durant as a top tier scorer and has been the premier scorer in the league for three/four years now. Dirk was never either been premier or a top tier scorer. Both can be very clutch. Durant has more range and equal accuracy, better creative ability. Dirk has a better post game, better defensive reads and carried a bigger load. Durant is more versatile and a better defender.

Durant's length is about equal or greater than Dirk's. Durant is very quick.

Dirk's goes to his strength a little better and is more definite in what he wants to do with the ball.

Right now its very, very, very close but I take Durant because he can do more.

I do think its ironic that in a direct comparison of the two, Lebron's play affects the perception of both greatly. Had Lebron did his look-I-can-go-to-Mars-during-the-finals trick, a year later most of you would have Durant as an top 30 player already and this question is out of reach.

[moe94]

Dirk was never either been premier or a top tier scorer.

Literally stopped reading.

[Nash]

ffs prime Dirk lead Dallas to the championship against Lebron, Wade and Bosh.

[NLZ]

Right, except for the '06-'07 when Dirk won MVP, oh and '04-'05 and '05-'06 when he came in 3rd in MVP voting. And '09-'12. The Finals MVP in '11 was okay too.
Derrick Rose wasn't the best, Allen Iverson wasn't the best, Steve Nash wasn't the best. Durant is the 2nd best in the NBA, even if he were to finish 5th in MVP voting.

[SCdac]

I do think its ironic that in a direct comparison of the two, Lebron's play affects the perception of both greatly. Had Lebron did his look-I-can-go-to-Mars-during-the-finals trick, a year later most of you would have Durant as an top 30 player already and this question is out of reach.

It is ironic. Durant dropped 31 ppg/.55 FG% on the Heat yet it wasn't much of a competitive series, while Dirk had a good Finals (26 ppg/.42 FG%) but it wasn't quite the WCF where he tore it up against the reallyyy young Thunder. Heat had gotten better in 2012, added Shane Battier who had his best series in the Finals against the Thunder, and they got even better in 2013. I def think under dog stories and going up against big names does play a big part in perception in weird ways... even if said player didn't personally guard or be guarded by the big names (ie. Dirk didn't have to guard Lebron, Durant, Kobe, etc) it still gives him a boost as if he did, because Dirk vs. Aldridge, Gasol, Bosh just doesn't sound as cool haha

[tpols]

It is ironic. Durant dropped 31 ppg/.55 FG% on the Heat yet it wasn't much of a competitive series, while Dirk had a good Finals (26 ppg/.42 FG%) but it wasn't quite the WCF where he tore it up against the reallyyy young Thunder. Heat had gotten better in 2012, added Shane Battier who had his best series in the Finals against the Thunder, and they got even better in 2013. I def think under dog stories and going up against big names does play a big part in perception in weird ways... even if said player didn't personally guard or be guarded by the big names (ie. Dirk didn't have to guard Lebron, Durant, Kobe, etc) it still gives him a boost as if he did, because Dirk vs. Aldridge, Gasol, Bosh just doesn't sound as cool haha
It's wierd.. watching both those series I got the impression Dirk played better despite having far inferior stats. Durant's scoring was too scattered and didnt spark any runs outside of the first game.. and his poor defense cancelled out his offense for the most part. While Dirk's points came in bunches at critical points in games to turn the tides.. and his defense wasnt really exposed because he didnt draw the toughest matchup.

[SCdac]

It's wierd.. watching both those series I got the impression Dirk played better despite having far inferior stats. Durant's scoring was too scattered and didnt spark any runs outside of the first game.. and his poor defense cancelled out his offense for the most part. While Dirk's points came in bunches at critical points in games to turn the tides.. and his defense wasnt really exposed because he didnt draw the toughest matchup.

I agree that Dirk's actual effect surpassed his statistical output, but it also speaks to his teammates and competition, and how they should be or are evaluated. I don't think Dirk drew the toughest match up in any series that year outside of maybe the Blazers w/ Aldridge, and even in that series Blazers were toast with BRoy broken down and playing like a shell of himself (he had 1 good game). Dirk had guys on his team to hound swingmen (Marion and Stevenson punked Lebron) and Chandler was great in the middle of the paint (lead Mavs in boards and blocks)... so it allowed Dirk to do what he does best (offensive stuff)... Credit to Cuban for building a great team relative to other teams that season, the best team to be exact.

[Pointguard]

Literally stopped reading.

Well, eventually your tutor will increase your hours and then you will get to four sentence paragraphs! As time progresses, you will start putting together five word sentences, and then ones even bigger than that.

[moe94]

Well, eventually your tutor will increase your hours and then you will get to four sentence paragraphs! As time progresses, you will start putting together five word sentences, and then ones even bigger than that.


Can you even begin to defend that ridiculous statement?

[DMAVS41]

I agree that Dirk's actual effect surpassed his statistical output, but it also speaks to his teammates and competition, and how they should be or are evaluated. I don't think Dirk drew the toughest match up in any series that year outside of maybe the Blazers w/ Aldridge, and even in that series Blazers were toast with BRoy broken down and playing like a shell of himself (he had 1 good game). Dirk had guys on his team to hound swingmen (Marion and Stevenson punked Lebron) and Chandler was great in the middle of the paint (lead Mavs in boards and blocks)... so it allowed Dirk to do what he does best (offensive stuff)... Credit to Cuban for building a great team relative to other teams that season, the best team to be exact.

This is absurd. The competition level in 11 was better than just about any year of this era.

The competition, for example, last year...was a joke compared to 11. The Spurs did not beat a single truly quality team. Lucked out with the Westbrook injury. Lucked out with the Kobe injury. Played a young and inexperienced Warriors team maybe 75% as good as the 11 Thunder...and then got a weak Grizzlies team in the WCF.

And then lost to an inferior Heat team compared to 11 in the finals.

LOL at a Spurs fan talking about competition strength...The Spurs have lucked out and played absurdly weak competition in 3 of their 4 title runs...especially in 03 and 07. And getting lucky breaks like Dirk going down in 03...

The Mavs competition to win the title was easily harder than any Spurs year outside of maybe 05...and it was still harder, just not at ton harder. Literally every title the Spurs won was a cake walk compared to 11 outside of 05.

And it's not that Dirk went head to head against those guys...it's that he clearly outplayed all of some of the biggest stars in the game except for Wade.

Whether you like it or not. Dirk outplayed LA, Gasol, Kobe, Westbrook, Durant, Lebron, and Bosh. You think that is easy? LOL

[ZMonkey11]

Right, except for the '06-'07 when Dirk won MVP, oh and '04-'05 and '05-'06 when he came in 3rd in MVP voting. And '09-'12. The Finals MVP in '11 was okay too.

Most VALUABLE Player, not BEST player.

Don't think I'd pick Steve Nash two years in a row over Shaq, buddy.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

KD one of my faves but this is Dirk until KD can win a chip
Dirk led scrubs to finals in 06 and almost won if it wasnt for refs and he was tripled like prime Shaq that series and his scrub teamates choked too

In 2011 he took a below avg cast to a title they gave him defense but offense they sucked without him a injured Raptors team blew the Mavs out at home w/o Dirk

Dirk is better shooter, rebounder, ballhandling
KD is better scorer, playmaker, offdribble
Defense is even

[Pointguard]

Can you even begin to defend that ridiculous statement?
You are on crack if you ever thought he was the premier scorer in the league. So that argument is out the window.

Now what year are you saying he's top tier? In 05 and 09 are the only two years he's top four in scoring. In 09 Wade and Lebron are in a separate tier. They were terrors and just unlike the rest of the pack. Way more creative, way more deadly than anybody else. RS or Playoffs.

In '05 Dirk has his best case but Iverson was 4 ppg higher than Dirk (with Kobe and Lebron 27ish a little over 27) and the second tier had six guys in that usual 24 -26 ppg range - that second tier. The playoffs Iverson goes up a notch and Dirk down a notch. Hard to make a case to say the same tier when its more than seven ppg.

[DMAVS41]

You are on crack if you ever thought he was the premier scorer in the league. So that argument is out the window.

Now what year are you saying he's top tier? In 05 and 09 are the only two years he's top four in scoring. In 09 Wade and Lebron are in a separate tier. They were terrors and just unlike the rest of the pack. Way more creative, way more deadly than anybody else. RS or Playoffs.

In '05 Dirk has his best case but Iverson was 4 ppg higher than Dirk (with Kobe and Lebron 27ish a little over 27) and the second tier had six guys in that usual 24 -26 ppg range - that second tier. The playoffs Iverson goes up a notch and Dirk down a notch. Hard to make a case to say the same tier when its more than seven ppg.

You do realize Dirk is 8th all time in playoff ppg...right? I think Durant is just as good scoring the ball, if not better, but to act like Dirk isn't an elite scorer...is just non sense. And he's done it on great overall efficiency as well.

[Pointguard]

This is absurd. The competition level in 11 was better than just about any year of this era.

It was the incredible year of superstar silence.

It had to be the worse year of superstar play in elimination series ever.

The perennials:
Duncan among his worse for sure.
Kobe among his worse for sure.
Lebron his worse

New stars
Durant below his standards
Rose his worse
Bosh his worse at that point

Wade his least effective when healthy but he was the only one that played competitively.

It was like a they all caught the same bug. You rarely ever see bad play catch on like that.

[DMAVS41]

It was the incredible year of superstar silence.

It had to be the worse year of superstar play in elimination series ever.

The perennials:
Duncan among his worse for sure.
Kobe among his worse for sure.
Lebron his worse

New stars
Durant below his standards
Rose his worse
Bosh his worse at that point

Wade his least effective when healthy but he was the only one that played competitively.

It was like a they all caught the same bug. You rarely ever see bad play catch on like that.


That is giving the Mavs 0 credit. Name the tougher year the Spurs faced please.

[Pointguard]

You do realize Dirk is 8th all time in playoff ppg...right? I think Durant is just as good scoring the ball, if not better, but to act like Dirk isn't an elite scorer...is just non sense. And he's done it on great overall efficiency as well.

To suggest Dirk as the premier scorer in the league like Durant has been, is pure nonsense and you know it. Dirk has always been an excellent scorer but in no way has he been in a tier above all or equal to the best. Name the year you think he has the case. Its that simple.

[Pointguard]

That is giving the Mavs 0 credit. Name the tougher year the Spurs faced please.
That has nothing to do with what I said.

I have said in the past Kidd had one of the best, if not the best, defensive stands ever by a wing player many times, tho.

[DMAVS41]

To suggest Dirk as the premier scorer in the league like Durant has been, is pure nonsense and you know it. Dirk has always been an excellent scorer but in no way has he been in a tier above all or equal to the best. Name the year you think he has the case. Its that simple.

What did I suggest? I merely said Dirk is an elite scorer...on par with just about anyone as a scorer in playoff history other than MJ.

You seem to care a lot about regular seasons. I just...well, don't. Not for all time top 25 or so players of all time. I don't care about the regular season. I want to know what these guys can do against teams that are trying as hard and are the better teams in the league. I guess you value games against the Bobcats highly...I just don't.

[DMAVS41]

That has nothing to do with what I said.

I have said in the past Kidd had one of the best, if not the best, defensive stands ever by a wing player many times, tho.

But it does. You are implying that players just "played bad"...and it didn't have anything to do with the Mavs. Which is just false of course.

But again...that wasn't even really my point you responded to. I said the Mavs faced tougher competition than any Spurs title. So again...what year did the Spurs face tougher competition while winning the title?

Or do you just agree with me?

[fpliii]

IMO Dirk, especially when he got the back-to-the-basket game going. One of the rare truly unguardable scorers in his day.

I like KD though, perhaps I'm undervaluing him here.

[DMAVS41]

And I'm sick of hearing about how the Lakers were clearly done..etc. The Boston Celtics in 08 didn't look good in round 1 at all...needing 7 to beat the Hawks...went on to win the title

Against the Lakers....Dirk averaged 25/10/3 on 57/73/94 shooting splits. And outside of game 4...it was a 50/50 series. As was the case in 11...the Mavs (mainly Dirk) just happened to come up super clutch in close games.

I swear it's like people just ignore the following;

Lakers were up 7 going to the 4th qtr of game 1
Lakers were down 6 going into the 4th qtr of game 2
Lakers were up 6 going into the 4th qtr of game 3

Then the Lakers quit in game 4. It was a sweep, but those 3 games could have gone either way. With the Lakers having the advantage in 2 of the 3 heading to the last period.

It's stuff like that...that is just glossed over. We have to pretend the Lakers just sucked...etc.

[Odinn]

Dirk doesn't dominate the ball as much as Durant and he is a true system-player. You do not have shape your offense around him that strictly. You can tell this even from their turnover per game numbers.

Nowitzki's impact on the court is beyond his numbers. And I think Durant can impact the game like he's doing now with lesser numbers. (Altough I do not suggest he's stat-padding.)

I prefer Nowitzki.

[Black and White]

Give me prime Dirk, dude can pull up from anywhere on the court, has an amazing fadeaway, leads his team, (durant couldn't against the grizzlies), prime Dirk is just as clutch as Durant, Dirk gets real underrated here, hes one of the best PFs of all time.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Give me prime Dirk, dude can pull up from anywhere on the court, has an amazing fadeaway, leads his team, (durant couldn't against the grizzlies), prime Dirk is just as clutch as Durant, Dirk gets real underrated here, hes one of the best PFs of all time.

Top 8

[SCdac]

Give me prime Dirk, dude can pull up from anywhere on the court, has an amazing fadeaway, leads his team, (durant couldn't against the grizzlies), prime Dirk is just as clutch as Durant, Dirk gets real underrated here, hes one of the best PFs of all time.

To be fair, Durant did lead his team to the Finals as a 23 year old in his 5th season and Dirk in his prime had his fair share of first & second round exits. Both have clearly had ups and downs one can point to.

[MavsPoke]

This one is close. Great post OP.

I'm gonna go off the basketball court to make this decision since I think on court it is a wash who I would rather take as my franchise player.

Off court both seem like the kind of players a city can root for. The kind you don't want traded, ever. No drugs, no legal trouble, both seem about as well adjusted as super stars can be.

But KD came in with expectations. Dirk came in as a big question mark. It has been so satisfying watching him grow into an NBA legend. Whereas with Durant you could see in college (even High School) that he was going to end up as something special.

So with that in mind I take Dirk. There is something special about watching a guy become a superstar and take his team to the highest level.

Also, the "Pokes" part of my user name = OSU Cowboys. /horns down

[DirkNowitzki41]

Give me prime Dirk, dude can pull up from anywhere on the court, has an amazing fadeaway, leads his team, (durant couldn't against the grizzlies), prime Dirk is just as clutch as Durant, Dirk gets real underrated here, hes one of the best PFs of all time.

Top 8

You just made his point. Wow, top 8? Definitely underrated

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Give me prime Dirk, dude can pull up from anywhere on the court, has an amazing fadeaway, leads his team, (durant couldn't against the grizzlies), prime Dirk is just as clutch as Durant, Dirk gets real underrated here, hes one of the best PFs of all time.

Top 8
Youre an idiot Dirk is easily top 5
KG, Timmy, Chuck, Dirk and Karl are the 5 no other PF can be argued on same level as them

[Legends66NBA7]

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]

You just made his point. Wow, top 8? Definitely underrated

He meant clearly top 8.

[DirkNowitzki41]

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]
Youre an idiot Dirk is easily top 5
KG, Timmy, Chuck, Dirk and Karl are the 5 no other PF can be argued on same level as them

:applause:

[TheMarkMadsen]

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]

You just made his point. Wow, top 8? Definitely underrated

Duncan, Barkley, Malone, KG, Mchale, Hayes, Pettit, Dirk

[moe94]

I let raw PPG averages tell me who's elite or not in scoring

:facepalm

[Legends66NBA7]

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]
Youre an idiot Dirk is easily top 5
KG, Timmy, Chuck, Dirk and Karl are the 5 no other PF can be argued on same level as them

Hayes, Pettit, and McHale get compared all the time too, not that I particularly agree.

[bizil]

Gotta take KD due to being able to do more things well than Dirk. Takeover scoring ability is even in my book. Actually their scoring skillset is similar in many ways. Both redefined their positions as well. So in a sense u can't go wrong either way. But the way KD's game is evolving, give me KD. KD is showing signs that he might actually combine so Larry Bird type elements to his George Gervin and TMac scoring skillset. Scary, scary stuff!

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Hayes, Pettit, and McHale get compared all the time too, not that I particularly agree.
Lets be real none of us nikkas watched Pettit:facepalm :facepalm
Hayes was chucker and Mchale was a 2nd option and black hole whos career was made by Larry and the Cs wings spreading floor for him to iso

[Draz]

Prime Dirk. Guy did it all himself.

[tmacattack33]

I might take Peak Dirk, which was the playoffs of 2011.

If you consider that as a peak.

I don't consider it as a peak though, because it was too short of a stretch and was more of a hot streak than a peak to me. That year in the regular season, he was good but not great. And then just four months later, when the next season began he was not great at all.

A peak is a stretch of two years to me. So I'll take Durant in the stretch going back from today to two years ago.

[TheMarkMadsen]

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]
Lets be real none of us nikkas watched Pettit:facepalm :facepalm
Hayes was chucker and Mchale was a 2nd option and black hole whos career was made by Larry and the Cs wings spreading floor for him to iso

Duncan Barkley & Malone were unquestionably better IMO. KG> Dirk as well.

Mchale is tough, but id probably leave toward Mchale.

So Duncan, Barkley, Malone, KG, Mchale, Dirk or Hayes.

6th best power forward ain't bad

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Duncan Barkley & Malone were unquestionably better IMO. KG> Dirk as well.

Mchale is tough, but id probably leave toward Mchale.

So Duncan, Barkley, Malone, KG, Mchale, Dirk or Hayes.

6th best power forward ain't bad

McHale has no argument over Dirk all time...

And Barkley, KG, Malone, Pettit...are all debatable

Dirk is somewhere between the 2nd and 6th best pf ever

[Legends66NBA7]

Prime Dirk. Guy did it all himself.

No he didn't.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Duncan Barkley & Malone were unquestionably better IMO. KG> Dirk as well.

Mchale is tough, but id probably leave toward Mchale.

So Duncan, Barkley, Malone, KG, Mchale, Dirk or Hayes.

6th best power forward ain't bad

How is Malone unquestionably better? Dirk shows up in the playoffs Malone doesnt and he was in system with Stockton and Utah that gaves him alot easy points.
Chuck was one of worst defenders ever even Dirk looks good in comparison but its close

Mchale is barely better than Pau Gasol GTFO here if u think he better than mofukking dirk nowitzki:roll: :roll: :roll:

[TheMarkMadsen]

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]

McHale has no argument over Dirk all time...

And Barkley, KG, Malone, Pettit...are all debatable

Dirk is somewhere between the 2nd and 6th best pf ever


If Mchale has no argument over Dirk


Then Dirk has no argument over Malone & Barkely who were both clearly better.

KG in his prime was easily better than Dirk in his prime. Garnett was an all around player dominant on both sides of the ball, DPOY, MVP, all defensive teams out the ass. KG was an elite defender, elite playmaker at his position and just overall a better player than Dirk.

Nobody who lived through Malone Duncan & Barkley would ever put Dirk as the 2nd best power forward ever. That spot belongs to Barkley and or Malone

Dirk at best, is 4th all time, and that's if you put him over KG, which if you value defense, rebounding and playmaking..you wouldn't

[TheMarkMadsen]

How is Malone unquestionably better? Dirk shows up in the playoffs Malone doesnt and he was in system with Stockton and Utah that gaves him alot easy points.
Chuck was one of worst defenders ever even Dirk looks good in comparison but its close

Mchale is barely better than Pau Gasol GTFO here if u think he better than mofukking dirk nowitzki:roll: :roll: :roll:

:facepalm

[Black and White]

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]


If Mchale has no argument over Dirk


Then Dirk has no argument over Malone & Barkely who were both clearly better. KG in his prime was easily better than Dirk in his prime. Garnett was an all around player dominant on both sides of the ball, DPOY, MVP, all defensive teams out the ass. KG was an elite defender, elite playmaker at his position and just overall a better player than Dirk.

Nobody who lived through Malone Duncan & Barkley would ever put Dirk as the 2nd best power forward ever. That spot belongs to Barkley and or Malone

Dirk at best, is 4th all time, and that's if you put him over KG, which if you value defense, rebounding and playmaking..you wouldn't


Disagree, they are not clearly better, it's interchangable. Dirk in his prime is just as good, those guys are all in the 2nd to 5th best PF tier. But to say they are clearly better is just absurd.

[Black and White]

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]

How is Malone unquestionably better? Dirk shows up in the playoffs Malone doesnt and he was in system with Stockton and Utah that gaves him alot easy points.
Chuck was one of worst defenders ever even Dirk looks good in comparison but its close

Mchale is barely better than Pau Gasol GTFO here if u think he better than mofukking dirk nowitzki:roll: :roll: :roll:

:biggums: You clearly don't know much about Mchale, he had one of the best post games ever

[moe94]

Mchale is barely better than Pau Gasol GTFO here if u think he better than mofukking dirk nowitzki:roll: :roll: :roll:
http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Michael-Scott-Closes-The-Door-Awkwardly-On-The-Office.gif

[TheMarkMadsen]

Sorry for ****ing up the thread now our quotes are all ****ed up that's my ****ing bad.

[$LakerGold]

Durant... better stats while playing better defense.
Durant is the 2nd best player after LeBron.

Dirk was what, top 6-7? Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Duncan etc etc were always better.
Weak Era is weak era.

[$LakerGold]

[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

:biggums: You clearly don't know much about Mchale, he had one of the best post games ever
Lol. Kevin Mchale was a solid player, but he's can't take on Prime Pau.

[Black and White]

[QUOTE=Black and White]
Lol. Kevin Mchale was a solid player, but he's can't take on Prime Pau.

What??? No way, Mchale was way better than Pau, and i really like Pau Gasol but there is no way im putting him over mchale

[TheCorporation]

This is a tough one, as they are both elite scorers. I like KD's rebounding and D, though.

Give me Durant. They both can score a ton, but KD has the scoring titles and is extremely efficient. Not to mention KD rebounds and plays defense better.

[Micku]

Lol. Kevin Mchale was a solid player, but he's can't take on Prime Pau.

Are you saying that because you're a Laker fan? I assume you are because of your ava name.

Dat ain't cool man. Mchale was awesome. You should rather have prime Mchale over Pau dude. The Lakers wouldn't swept by the Mavs in 11 if prime Mchale was on dat team. Or how KG try to punk/own Gasol in 08? Dat wouldn't happened with Mchale man. Mchale would do some WWE crap and clotheslines one of their scrub players, then talk trash like prime Stone Cold Steve Austin to get everyone pumped up, and then proceed to dominant with at least 24 points and some solid defense or something instead of Gasol's 14.3 ppg in the finals.

Mchale had sooo much pimp in him that he had to name his post moves like it was one of his hoes. Real talk man. He created moves like "The Worm" or the "The Slippery Eel". Unstoppable moves bro. When has Pau been pimp enough to name his own post moves with such style? He's not even pimp enough to keep his head in the game sometimes. Case in point, 2011 playoffs.

When Mchale saw guys giants like Ralph Sampson, a 7'4 dude. And Hakeem the Dream in the Finals, y'know what Mchale did? He was like "I'm no punk" and dropped his pimpin' ho post moves on them, and had 26 ppg on 57%. Ralph Sampson was never the same.

You want prime Mchale and not Gasoft.

On topic:

I'll wait until the end of the season before I decide.

[Pointguard]

What did I suggest? I merely said Dirk is an elite scorer...on par with just about anyone as a scorer in playoff history other than MJ.

You are the one who jumped at me when I said he was never the premier/top tier scorer in the league. Its not the reverse.


You seem to care a lot about regular seasons. I just...well, don't. Not for all time top 25 or so players of all time. I don't care about the regular season. I want to know what these guys can do against teams that are trying as hard and are the better teams in the league. I guess you value games against the Bobcats highly...I just don't.

Scoring is scoring - the second you start qualifying it, its a distortion. I never said anything accenting RS over PS.



But it does. You are implying that players just "played bad"...and it didn't have anything to do with the Mavs. Which is just false of course.

I have always said Kidd had the best defensive stand ever (and I said this over and over again) I once said show me any player that had a tougher and as successful perimeter assignment in the history of the playoffs. And I was telling you that Tyson Chandler was a stellar defensive player during that year and you tried to make a joke of it. I've recently said he's more important to my team winning right now than Mello is. A player who is arguably, the premier scorer in the league.


But again...that wasn't even really my point you responded to. I said the Mavs faced tougher competition than any Spurs title. So again...what year did the Spurs face tougher competition while winning the title?

Or do you just agree with me?
I never said anything in regards to the Spurs, sorry wrong guy.

[DirkNowitzki41]

This is a tough one, as they are both elite scorers. I like KD's rebounding and D, though.

Give me Durant. They both can score a ton, but KD has the scoring titles and is extremely efficient. Not to mention KD rebounds and plays defense better.

I wouldnt say KD is a better rebounder for sure. Dirk was good in his prime, and was great in the playoffs

[TheCorporation]

I wouldnt say KD is a better rebounder for sure. Dirk was good in his prime, and was great in the playoffs

For sure. During Dirk's best season he recorded 9.9, and is a career 8.2 rpg. Durant still hasn't hit his peak but he averaged 7.9 last year and is averaging 8.2 this year with his career numbers currently sitting at 6.9. It's hard to say since KD hasn't hit his prime yet.

[moe94]

For sure. During Dirk's best season he recorded 9.9, and is a career 8.2 rpg. Durant still hasn't hit his peak but he averaged 7.9 last year and is averaging 8.2 this year with his career numbers currently sitting at 6.9. It's hard to say since KD hasn't hit his prime yet.

Dirk is an average at best rebounder for his position while Durant is a good rebounder for his position. It's all relative.

[DMAVS41]

You are the one who jumped at me when I said he was never the premier/top tier scorer in the league. Its not the reverse.


Scoring is scoring - the second you start qualifying it, its a distortion. I never said anything accenting RS over PS.


I have always said Kidd had the best defensive stand ever (and I said this over and over again) I once said show me any player that had a tougher and as successful perimeter assignment in the history of the playoffs. And I was telling you that Tyson Chandler was a stellar defensive player during that year and you tried to make a joke of it. I've recently said he's more important to my team winning right now than Mello is. A player who is arguably, the premier scorer in the league.

I never said anything in regards to the Spurs, sorry wrong guy.


So you can't have it both ways. You can't say the Mavs forced other stars to play worse...then turn around and say it was a silent year for superstars. You see?

It was a combination of solid defense and Dirk going off in close games to force others to keep up...and nobody could. Nobody of this era could actually...nobody has done what Dirk did in the playoffs in crunch time before since we started tracking this shit.

Dirk was a top tier scorer in the league...you just value RS over playoffs. I don't. I don't qualify it at all...playoffs are what matters to me. From 08 through 12...that is 5 years...Dirk averaged something like 27 ppg on 61% TS. If that isn't first tier...I don't know what is...

So I want to hear how 27 ppg on 61% TS or whatever it is over a 5 year period in the playoffs while leading a team to the title on 28 ppg 61% TS isn't top tier. Tier implies more than one...so I want to know the players that are better scorers than Dirk when it matters. You could argue Kobe, Durant, and Lebron...and all of it is debatable...

[Pointguard]

It seems that people are 50/50 right now?

If Durant had a ring 80/20 probably?

Durant's position as number 2 in the league is beginning to be threatened. By a versatile player who is whose defense puts him in contention for the two spot. If George had three years at his current level I it would be very tight at the second spot, but I would be leaning toward George if he had the same amount of battle scars.

In a way the argument would be very similar to the Garnett/Dirk debate (in their primes the ppg difference is about the same as well) but KG was better than Dirk in everything outside of scoring where as George would only be better than Durant in defense. And Durant would be the premier scorer in the league.

[Pointguard]

So you can't have it both ways. You can't say the Mavs forced other stars to play worse...then turn around and say it was a silent year for superstars. You see?
It was definitely a case of both. Duncan didn't play the Mavs. Lebron's mind state wasn't because of Marion.


It was a combination of solid defense and Dirk going off in close games to force others to keep up...and nobody could. Nobody of this era could actually...nobody has done what Dirk did in the playoffs in crunch time before since we started tracking this shit.
What Wade did was more impressive. It was the finals, they were down two zip. He goes on to average like 40ppg shot over 550% in three of the wins in a duel with prime Dirk. That was crunch time of all crunch times. Down 0-2 in the finals is crunch time.


Dirk was a top tier scorer in the league...you just value RS over playoffs. I don't. I don't qualify it at all...playoffs are what matters to me. From 08 through 12...that is 5 years...Dirk averaged something like 27 ppg on 61% TS. If that isn't first tier...I don't know what is...
Dirk has done very well but if you play 100 games in a year, you are responsible for 100 games. You get paid millions of dollars from fans, you are responsible to earn your check like the other players/scorers. You can't cherry pick, or decide the standard - a scorer scores over the course of the year. There is no question in my mind that if Lebron, Wade and Kobe cut back on defense and played only to score, that all three are doing better than 27 ppg being that they have all done it multiple times with a load of other work.

Dirk scores more and rebounds more in the playoffs because he's less spent than other players. His responsibilities are minimal in comparison.


So I want to hear how 27 ppg on 61% TS or whatever it is over a 5 year period in the playoffs while leading a team to the title on 28 ppg 61% TS isn't top tier. Tier implies more than one...so I want to know the players that are better scorers than Dirk when it matters. You could argue Kobe, Durant, and Lebron...and all of it is debatable...
When it matters??? Jason Terry should rank very high. Robert Horry would also be top rank. The second you start qualifying things it can land everywhere.

Kareem has the record for most points scored and is known as a the best scorer. Gretsky regular season mark is known to hockey fans. Mayweather is closing in on 50 and 0. Nobody knows their championship marks. You can't change the rules because Dirk laid back game hurts him the RS. Sorry scoring encompasses it all. Dirk was never like what Durant has been the last three years. All of the guys mentioned in this paragraph have great endurance. Its part of the game. If you don't have it, you get excluded when talking about the elite in every sport - there are no exceptions. Dirk doesn't play hard on defense either... .

[DMAVS41]

It was definitely a case of both. Duncan didn't play the Mavs. Lebron's mind state wasn't because of Marion.

What Wade did was more impressive. It was the finals, they were down two zip. He goes on to average like 40ppg shot over 550% in three of the wins in a duel with prime Dirk. That was crunch time of all crunch times. Down 0-2 in the finals is crunch time.

Dirk has done very well but if you play 100 games in a year, you are responsible for 100 games. You get paid millions of dollars from fans, you are responsible to earn your check like the other players/scorers. You can't cherry pick, or decide the standard - a scorer scores over the course of the year. There is no question in my mind that if Lebron, Wade and Kobe cut back on defense and played only to score, that all three are doing better than 27 ppg being that they have all done it multiple times with a load of other work.

Dirk scores more and rebounds more in the playoffs because he's less spent than other players. His responsibilities are minimal in comparison.

When it matters??? Jason Terry should rank very high. Robert Horry would also be top rank. The second you start qualifying things it can land everywhere.

Kareem has the record for most points scored and is known as a the best scorer. Gretsky regular season mark is known to hockey fans. Mayweather is closing in on 50 and 0. Nobody knows their championship marks. You can't change the rules because Dirk laid back game hurts him the RS. Sorry scoring encompasses it all. Dirk was never like what Durant has been the last three years. All of the guys mentioned in this paragraph have great endurance. Its part of the game. If you don't have it, you get excluded when talking about the elite in every sport - there are no exceptions. Dirk doesn't play hard on defense either... .


Dude. Dirk does all those things. He rebounds and defends and makes plays for others. He just isn't great at some of those things. If you think Dirk doesn't try hard on defense or rebounding...you are nuts.

Not to mention that Durant's defense to date has been nothing. It's utterly average. Kobe, rests on defense more than just about any player in the league.

And there it is. You value the regular season and playoffs the same. The reason Dirk's numbers are less in the regular season is because he plays less minutes. that is all. his per 36 numbers are identical outside of Dirk getting 1 more rebound in the playoffs for his career per 36 in the playoffs.

That is elite scoring. He's 8th all time in playoff ppg on the 2nd highest overall efficiency of anyone scoring over 25 ppg for their playoff career. LOL...how is that not elite? There is MJ...and then a whole host of guys on that next tier. dirk is one of them.

So this is your argument;

Yea, Dirk is certainly an elite scorer when it matters in the playoffs, but he doesn't stat pad in the regular season against bad teams...so he's not an elite scorer.

I hope you realize that is how silly your argument is.

And Terry is elite for his career? How? Now scoring 16.5 ppg make you an elite scorer? :facepalm


And back to the whole Durant vs Dirk thing...Dirk's impact goes way beyond numbers if you knew anything about the game. But the way you scoff at 26/10/3 58.4% TS career playoff averages with 2 trips to the finals, 3 trips to the WCF, a title, and a finals MVP is just hilarious. And he did that all never having the kind of properly built quality teams Durant has had since 2011. Like seriously...WB is clearly better than any player Dirk ever played with...

So if Durant wants to get on the Dirk tier (top 20 all time for me)...he has to win a title first. I'm sure he will, but he has to do it before we can talk.

It's like Kevin Love. Something is missing. Prime Dirk is winning like 55 games on the current Wolves...that's how good he actually was and you sell him short hugely by claiming he doesn't try hard in the regular season. I guess those utterly average rosters for top teams all those years were winning close to 60 because Dirk didn't try.

[NumberSix]

Dirk is a living legend. Durant isn't.

[chocolatethunder]

There was maybe an 8 year stretch where not one person on the planet said that and an 11 year stretch nobody should have.


That said....

Probably Dirk. There are teams id take Durant on but generally if I didnt know who I could pair him with id take Dirk in 01-11 form.

Honestly, in most threads all the kids here should just wait til KBlaze responds and then just end the thread. Anyone over 35 would be allowed in the thread but everyone under age should be locked out. That would apply to all real basketball threads not to " who has the most swag" and threads like that.

[Pointguard]

And there it is. You value the regular season and playoffs the same.

Scorers are measured on how they score in the game. The game is the the standard measure. Most players play between 70 - 90 games. The bulk of the games are RS. James Worthy was another player that saved himself for the post season where he played on the level of the super scorers. Chauncey Billups played allstar level in the playoffs. Had they played 90 stellar games history would be kind to those guys. In every sport the measure is for the regular season - basketball included. Its not just me.



The reason Dirk's numbers are less in the regular season is because he plays less minutes. that is all. his per 36 numbers are identical outside of Dirk getting 1 more rebound in the playoffs for his career per 36 in the playoffs.
Which I find really impressive. But Dirk never having to be a top three scorer in the league, Dirk never averaging 10 plus rebounds per game, Dirk rarely defending the superstars at his position even in regular season games, now should be given leniency when talking about overall scoring. How many breaks can somebody be given? The top scorers Kobe, Wade, Lebron and Iverson were way more relentless in their scoring as well. Dirk was never as creative as any of them either.



That is elite scoring. He's 8th all time in playoff ppg on the 2nd highest overall efficiency of anyone scoring over 25 ppg for their playoff career. LOL...how is that not elite? There is MJ...and then a whole host of guys on that next tier. dirk is one of them.

So this is your argument;

Yea, Dirk is certainly an elite scorer when it matters in the playoffs, but he doesn't stat pad in the regular season against bad teams...so he's not an elite scorer.

I hope you realize that is how silly your argument is.
Ohhh right. Scorers are not suppose to be the best scorers over the course of a season. Just post season. Scorer's score. Its silly to suggest otherwise. In every sport, basketball included there are no exceptions.



And Terry is elite for his career? How? Now scoring 16.5 ppg make you an elite scorer? :facepalm
I said Terry because you can qualify his scoring like you are doing with Dirk. Dirk is a great scorer in the playoffs and falls off some in the finals. So Dirk has his niche and Terry has his. Terry in the last three games of each finals is a better scorer than his teammate Dirk. And Horry is also a great niche scorer.



And back to the whole Durant vs Dirk thing...Dirk's impact goes way beyond numbers if you knew anything about the game.

I coach. Dirk does have impact beyond his scoring. But Durant scores from the same places on the floor as Dirk does and passes better. He is also more creative and a more persistent scorer as well. Take persistent out of scorers like Wade, Iverson and Kobe and they aren't going to be elite anymore, so its a quality that makes a difference (see Blake Griffin)


But the way you scoff at 26/10/3 58.4% TS career playoff averages with 2 trips to the finals, 3 trips to the WCF, a title, and a finals MVP is just hilarious. And he did that all never having the kind of properly built quality teams Durant has had since 2011. Like seriously...WB is clearly better than any player Dirk ever played with...
Durant doesn't have have the wisdom on the court like Dirk, KD is about 3 years away from his prime so I give Dirk that. I think those numbers will definitely be surpassed by Durant who is already near a comparable stature. Will he do it before his prime or during it is the only question.


So if Durant wants to get on the Dirk tier (top 20 all time for me)...he has to win a title first. I'm sure he will, but he has to do it before we can talk.

It's like Kevin Love. Something is missing. Prime Dirk is winning like 55 games on the current Wolves...that's how good he actually was and you sell him short hugely by claiming he doesn't try hard in the regular season. I guess those utterly average rosters for top teams all those years were winning close to 60 because Dirk didn't try.
Dirk never had to put up great PF numbers because his teams were able to take the weight. KG had three years of 1100 rebounds and 8 years of over 900 rebounds while being on the all defensive teams while leading or second on the team in every major statistical category. Dirk has no years of 800 or more rebounds and no all defensive teams. Dirk rarely even had to shoot as good as other PF's as well. Only the team can compensate for lack of blocked, shots, steals, assist. Dirk had a convenience that Karl Malone, Barkley and Garnett didn't have. If they cut back there was no way a team could compensate. Dirk played less, was less productive and won more.

Not sure its a good thing and is definitely an indication of the team doing more than other great PF's.

[Micku]

And back to the whole Durant vs Dirk thing...Dirk's impact goes way beyond numbers if you knew anything about the game. But the way you scoff at 26/10/3 58.4% TS career playoff averages with 2 trips to the finals, 3 trips to the WCF, a title, and a finals MVP is just hilarious. And he did that all never having the kind of properly built quality teams Durant has had since 2011. Like seriously...WB is clearly better than any player Dirk ever played with...


I have to disagree with you there man. Once upon a time Dirk had Michael Finley, Steve Nash, a young Juwan Howard, and Shawn Bradley. OKC would love Shawn Bradley over Perkins anyday of the week. His defense and rebounding is just much better. His offense is too, though he is inconsistent, but it's better than nonexistent. They would also love a prime Michael Finley as a third option. The Mavs problem, imo, was that they didn't figure out how to make it all worked with their talent. And their bench sucked. While Don Nelson is a very good coach, they needed a different coaching staff to make all fit. They definitively had the pieces.

Regardless, I always found Dirk had more talent in his earlier Mavs team than the 2011 and onwards OKC team.

[Black and White]

I have to disagree with you there man. Once upon a time Dirk had Michael Finley, Steve Nash, a young Juwan Howard, and Shawn Bradley. OKC would love Shawn Bradley over Perkins anyday of the week. His defense and rebounding is just much better. His offense is too, though he is inconsistent, but it's better than nonexistence. They would also love a prime Michael Finley as a third option. The Mavs problem, imo, was that they didn't figure out how to make it all worked with their talent. And their bench sucked. While Don Nelson is a very good coach, they needed a different coaching staff to make all fit. They definitively had the pieces.

Regardless, I always found Dirk had more talent in his earlier Mavs team than the 2011 and onwards OKC team.

That still doesn't make Durant better than Prime Dirk tho

[DMAVS41]

Scorers are measured on how they score in the game. The game is the the standard measure. Most players play between 70 - 90 games. The bulk of the games are RS. James Worthy was another player that saved himself for the post season where he played on the level of the super scorers. Chauncey Billups played allstar level in the playoffs. Had they played 90 stellar games history would be kind to those guys. In every sport the measure is for the regular season - basketball included. Its not just me.


Which I find really impressive. But Dirk never having to be a top three scorer in the league, Dirk never averaging 10 plus rebounds per game, Dirk rarely defending the superstars at his position even in regular season games, now should be given leniency when talking about overall scoring. How many breaks can somebody be given? The top scorers Kobe, Wade, Lebron and Iverson were way more relentless in their scoring as well. Dirk was never as creative as any of them either.


Ohhh right. Scorers are not suppose to be the best scorers over the course of a season. Just post season. Scorer's score. Its silly to suggest otherwise. In every sport, basketball included there are no exceptions.


I said Terry because you can qualify his scoring like you are doing with Dirk. Dirk is a great scorer in the playoffs and falls off some in the finals. So Dirk has his niche and Terry has his. Terry in the last three games of each finals is a better scorer than his teammate Dirk. And Horry is also a great niche scorer.



I coach. Dirk does have impact beyond his scoring. But Durant scores from the same places on the floor as Dirk does and passes better. He is also more creative and a more persistent scorer as well. Take persistent out of scorers like Wade, Iverson and Kobe and they aren't going to be elite anymore, so its a quality that makes a difference (see Blake Griffin)

Durant doesn't have have the wisdom on the court like Dirk, KD is about 3 years away from his prime so I give Dirk that. I think those numbers will definitely be surpassed by Durant who is already near a comparable stature. Will he do it before his prime or during it is the only question.

Dirk never had to put up great PF numbers because his teams were able to take the weight. KG had three years of 1100 rebounds and 8 years of over 900 rebounds while being on the all defensive teams while leading or second on the team in every major statistical category. Dirk has no years of 800 or more rebounds and no all defensive teams. Dirk rarely even had to shoot as good as other PF's as well. Only the team can compensate for lack of blocked, shots, steals, assist. Dirk had a convenience that Karl Malone, Barkley and Garnett didn't have. If they cut back there was no way a team could compensate. Dirk played less, was less productive and won more.

Not sure its a good thing and is definitely an indication of the team doing more than other great PF's.

You really over-rate the regular season and the strength of Dirk's teams.

Karl Malone never had the convenience Dirk did? Yea..because Dirk has had a pass first elite defensive high IQ pg managing games for him his entire career and getting him easy baskets constantly....:facepalm

Dirk had better teams than KG and Barkley...don't think he had better teams on the whole than Malone though. So what? That doesn't make Dirk worse...Shaq had far better teams than Dirk ever did...does that somehow make Shaq worse? What do KG, Barkley, and Malone have to do with this? Barkley was a joke on defense...never tried half as hard as Dirk did. Yet Barkley was as good or better than Dirk offensively and they are a toss up. KG was nowhere near the offensive force Barkley and Dirk were, but was an elite level defender. Malone is a mix of it all and again...it's a toss up between them.

But...the argument that those guys had it "harder"...is just silly. Especially because one could argue that Dirk on bad teams would play more minutes and take more shots...driving up his numbers. That wouldn't make Dirk better...if he played on those wolves teams like KG did...Dirk's career averages would all be higher...he'd probably be a little less efficient (maybe) and he'd have better totals. But who cares about that? You really care about Dirk playing 3 more mpg and averaging 25/9/3 in the regular season for his career instead of 23/8/3? Who cares? Especially when Dirk was leading teams to great regular season after great regular season.

These arguments that Dirk got to take it easy and still win are silly...you again sell Dirk short. Just look at 2010, for example, Mavs went 55-27...take a look at the roster...LOL...take a good look at it. I'm supposed to get a hard on for a guy like Kobe in 10 leading a far superior Lakers team to 57 wins...only 2 more...and turn around and say Kobe had it harder? It's a joke dude. Kobe missed 9 games and his team went 6-3 without him...Or Lebron the last few years. He's a do everything player...I'm supposed to go nuts about him winning games with a far superior roster than Dirk ever had? At some point this shit needs to come back to reality. Hell, in 07, Dirk won 67 games...more than Lebron has ever won in a season...with much less help than Lebron has had since joining the Heat. Who had it easier? Lebron also plays in a historically weak conference...while prime Dirk was doing this shit in one of the best conferences the NBA has seen. Who had it tougher? LOL

Who had it harder that season? Seriously...I'd love to know.

Dirk just didn't stat pad like so many guys do. Dirk could easily have stayed in an average 3 or so more minutes per game against shit teams his entire career and scored 2-3 more ppg. As someone that watched his entire career...it would have been easy...like...super easy.

That is why I care about the playoffs. I understand you take it all in more...and I take it all in as well, but I'm just not getting excited about some guys because they drop 35 on a bad team when Dirk drops 25 and takes the 4th qtr off.


You were the one that claimed Dirk isn't an elite scorer. And you are using meaningless regular season games...LOL

Don't you find it funny that you give Dirk no credit for winning 50 or more 11 straight seasons as the clear cut best player of the franchise during that time? Doing it with only 1 all nba player during that whole stretch...and a couple all-stars as well. No leader of a franchise has done more in the regular season over a decade plus with less than Dirk. All while putting up great overall efficiency and leading the Mavs as the best close game team from 04 through 11.

Then...in the playoffs...he's able to play big minutes and score at a rate on par with just about anyone in history other than MJ.

All you are doing is saying that ball dominant wings that shoot more than Dirk are better scorers. And I disagree. I'd take Dirk over Kobe, for example, as a scorer. I want the guy that impacts the game like Dirk without the ball as often...all while being more efficient by a large margin and scoring like 2.2 ppg less prime vs prime in the playoffs.

What Dirk could do in his prime as an offensive player was truly special. Hell, what he can do now is still special.

And if you want to look at the regular seasons so much...take a look at what Dirk does to his teams offense for his career.

When Dirk is on the floor...his teams get 9.3 points better per 100 possessions on offense

Let's compare that to some elite offensive players all time and some guys you have mentioned;

Kobe 7.7
KG 5.5
Lebron 10.1
Durant 5.1
Nash 8.7
Paul 9.1

This a good measure of some of that hidden offensive impact that Dirk has that Durant is somewhat missing so far in his career.

Now lets look at offensive ratings;

Dirk 117
Durant 114
Kobe 112
Nash 118
KG 110
Lebron 116

No matter how you slice it, Dirk is an elite offensive force/scorer in NBA history.

It's just even more impressive considering a career of 26/10/3 58.4% TS in the playoffs over such a long time frame. I'll while doing it that without the kind of help almost every other guy you are bringing up has had...especially at the 2nd option position.

[DMAVS41]

I have to disagree with you there man. Once upon a time Dirk had Michael Finley, Steve Nash, a young Juwan Howard, and Shawn Bradley. OKC would love Shawn Bradley over Perkins anyday of the week. His defense and rebounding is just much better. His offense is too, though he is inconsistent, but it's better than nonexistent. They would also love a prime Michael Finley as a third option. The Mavs problem, imo, was that they didn't figure out how to make it all worked with their talent. And their bench sucked. While Don Nelson is a very good coach, they needed a different coaching staff to make all fit. They definitively had the pieces.

Regardless, I always found Dirk had more talent in his earlier Mavs team than the 2011 and onwards OKC team.

The only year that would be true was in 03...and even then it was a somewhat poorly constructed team for winning in the playoffs with solely run and gun...etc.

And did you just list Bradley and Juwan Howard as positives? ROFL...Howard put up 13/8/1 on 36% shooting in the 01 playoffs...and was beyond bad against the Spurs. Just horrendous.

The 12 Thunder were better than any team Dirk has ever had...by a clear margin as well.

But I don't care to really debate that...my point in bringing that up was to show that at the very least Durant is getting Dirk level help or better...so if he wants to be on the Dirk level all time...he needs to win a title.

But let me put it this way for you. Give prime Dirk...Westbrook and the center equivalent of Ibaka (not sure who that is...maybe a healthy Tyson Chandler or Marc Gasol)...in the league today...and I'd bet a ton of money the Mavs win multiple titles from 11 through 15.

[Legends66NBA7]

Yeah, Malone had some #1 ranked defenses at the time, DPOY player in Mark Eaton, best pure PG in John Stockton from 18 years (16 as a starter), former all-star wings like Jeff Malone and Jeff Hornacek, and Jerry Sloan as his coach for just as long too. His late-80's-90's Jazz, especially the ones from 96-99 (some could even say the late 80's too) were definitely deep teams.

Don't know how Malone didn't have the convenience Dirk did.

[Black and White]

The only year that would be true was in 03...and even then it was a somewhat poorly constructed team for winning in the playoffs with solely run and gun...etc.

And did you just list Bradley and Juwan Howard as positives? ROFL...

The 12 Thunder were better than any team Dirk has ever had...by a clear margin as well.

But I don't care to really debate that...my point in bringing that up was to show that at the very least Durant is getting Dirk level help or better...so if he wants to be on the Dirk level all time...he needs to win a title.

But let me put it this way for you. Give prime Dirk...Westbrook and the center equivalent of Ibaka (not sure who that is...maybe a healthy Tyson Chandler or Marc Gasol)...in the league today...and I'd bet a ton of money the Mavs win multiple titles from 11 through 15.

Prime Dirk + Westbrook + A defensive stopper like Chandler??? Game over :bowdown:

That floor spacing would be insane. I would predict about 2 titles in 4 years

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, Malone had some #1 ranked defenses at the time, DPOY player in Mark Easton, best pure PG in John Stockton from 18 years (16 as a starter), former all-star wings like Jeff Malone and Jeff Hornacek, and Jerry Sloan as his coach for just as long too. His late-80's-90's Jazz, especially the ones from 96-99 (some could even say the late 80's too) were definitely deep teams.

Don't know how Malone didn't have the convenience Dirk did.

Don't you get it...Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Devin Harris, Avery Johnson...LOL

Shit...I just heard that about how great Shawn Bradley and Juwan Howard were...

[Jailblazers7]

The arguments about how much each has won are kind of irrelevant because the leagues they played in were much different. The West now provides a much better opportunity for KD to win a ring than Dirk from 2002-2006 (and the Mavs were robbed in 06).

Dirk had the 3-peat Lakers with an uberdominant Shaq, Prime C-Webb Kings, Prime Duncan Spurs, & Prime Sheed Jailblazers to battle. The West is still really competitive but it is nowhere near as top heavy as it was from like 2000-2005. The competition got a little more reasonable as Dirk reached the end of his prime and he made it to 2 finals and won 1.

[DMAVS41]

The arguments about how much each has won are kind of irrelevant because the leagues they played in were much different. The West now provides a much better opportunity for KD to win a ring than Dirk from 2002-2006 (and the Mavs were robbed in 06).

Dirk had the 3-peat Lakers with an uberdominant Shaq, Prime C-Webb Kings, Prime Duncan Spurs, & Prime Sheed Jailblazers to battle. The West is still really competitive but it is nowhere near as top heavy as it was from like 2000-2005. The competition got a little more reasonable as Dirk reached the end of his prime and he made it to 2 finals and won 1.

To be fair, Dirk never had to face the Lakers in the playoffs until 11. Now, it impacted seedings and all that stuff and definitely made it tougher, but luckily we never faced the Shaq/Kobe Lakers.

But yea...there are no 02 Kings and dominant Spurs teams running around the West right now. The competition is definitely worse right now than it was from like 00 through 11.

[Micku]

That still doesn't make Durant better than Prime Dirk tho

It doesn't. But it also doesn't make Dirk better either.



The only year that would be true was in 03...and even then it was a somewhat poorly constructed team for winning in the playoffs with solely run and gun...etc.

And did you just list Bradley and Juwan Howard as positives? ROFL...

Hey now, come on. Bradley was a much better player than Perkins and I'm sure OKC would love to have him. His defense and rebounding was better. His offense is meh, but do you not agree he was better than Perkins? And Juwan Howard was solid scoring piece. He wasn't a scrub. A bad fit? Sure, you can argue that.

And it goes back to what you say about a constructed team, but it was mainly coaching than it was the players. Dirk had a talented team around him in his early Mavs years.



The 12 Thunder were better than any team Dirk has ever had...by a clear margin as well.

But let me put it this way for you. Give prime Dirk...Westbrook and the center equivalent of Ibaka (not sure who that is...maybe a healthy Tyson Chandler or Marc Gasol)...in the league today...and I'd bet a ton of money the Mavs win multiple titles from 11 through 15.


The Thunder 12 was a better team than most that Dirk had. But I think the early Mavs team could compare with Nash, Finley and Dirk at the core. Finley could give you 20, 5, 5.

[Micku]

Don't you get it...Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Devin Harris, Avery Johnson...LOL

Shit...I just heard that about how great Shawn Bradley and Juwan Howard were...

Haha! Wow. You're acting like Juwan Howard was a scrub. He did give the team 18/7 and 15/8. He once had 22 and 8 before the Mavs. And they brought in Shawn Bradley to improve the defense and rebounding of the Mavs. And Shawn Bradley was supposed to provided defense, good rebounding and he was a solid rim protector. Much better than Perkins.

You can say that they didn't fit well or whatever. But you are just disregarding their play completely. Dirk did have talent. They weren't the best in the league obviously, but lets not act OKC would trade over Perkins to Shawn Bradley or have Michael Finley as their third option currently.

[Black and White]

Haha! Wow. You're acting like Juwan Howard was a scrub. He did give the team 18/7 and 15/8. He once had 22 and 8 before the Mavs. And they brought in Shawn Bradley to improve the defense and rebounding of the Mavs. And Shawn Bradley was supposed to provided defense, good rebounding and he was a solid rim protector. Much better than Perkins.

You can say that they didn't fit well or whatever. But you are just disregarding their play completely. Dirk did have talent. They weren't the best in the league obviously, but lets not act OKC would trade over Perkins to Shawn Bradley or have Michael Finley as their third option currently.

Who would you rather have tho, Juwan Howard or Serge Ibaka?

[DMAVS41]

It doesn't. But it also doesn't make Dirk better either.



Hey now, come on. Bradley was a much better player than Perkins and I'm sure OKC would love to have him. His defense and rebounding was better. His offense is meh, but do you not agree he was better than Perkins? And Juwan Howard was solid scoring piece. He wasn't a scrub. A bad fit? Sure, you can argue that.

And it goes back to what you say about a constructed team, but it was mainly coaching than it was the players. Dirk had a talented team around him in his early Mavs years.



The Thunder 12 was a better team than most that Dirk had. But I think the early Mavs team could compare with Nash, Finley and Dirk at the core. Finley could give you 20, 5, 5.

I really don't think Bradley is better than Perkins, but it doesn't matter considering Bradley made no impact on the team in the playoffs any year in question. Well, he was awful in 03 when he put up a solid 3/4/0 on 44% TS in the playoffs for us in 14.5 mpg.

Howard only played on the 01 Mavs...and that 01 team was nowhere near as good as the 12 Thunder.

See, this is my problem. I totally agree Dirk has had some very good teams around him. Nobody is saying otherwise...

I said 03 would be your best bet...and it's tough for some reasons. 1 being that Dirk got hurt in the WCF in game 3. Another being that is was a run and run team with no center that played no defense...and another being that we didn't have a player as good as Westbrook outside of Dirk.

The Thunder, on the other hand, had a much better built roster for the playoffs in my opinion.

[DMAVS41]

Haha! Wow. You're acting like Juwan Howard was a scrub. He did give the team 18/7 and 15/8. He once had 22 and 8 before the Mavs. And they brought in Shawn Bradley to improve the defense and rebounding of the Mavs. And Shawn Bradley was supposed to provided defense, good rebounding and he was a solid rim protector. Much better than Perkins.

You can say that they didn't fit well or whatever. But you are just disregarding their play completely. Dirk did have talent. They weren't the best in the league obviously, but lets not act OKC would trade over Perkins to Shawn Bradley or have Michael Finley as their third option currently.

Nobody is saying Dirk didn't have talent, but you are propping up a guy that did this in the playoffs the year in question

13/8/1 36% fg 43% TS...and played shit defense.

And we were talking about the 12 team...but if you go down that road. Trust me...I'd much rather have a defensive big than Finley on either of those teams. Please give me the center equivalent of Ibaka in 03 over Finley. Please...we would have been so much better.

[Micku]

I really don't think Bradley is better than Perkins, but it doesn't matter considering Bradley made no impact on the team in the playoffs any year in question. Well, he was awful in 03 when he put up a solid 3/4/0 on 44% TS in the playoffs for us in 14.5 mpg.

If I can recall (correct me if I'm wrong), he was injured throughout the playoffs that year. He was always injury prone tho.

And he did made an impact on the team though. His rebounding and rim protection was worth it whenever he was healthy, and he was the center that the Mavs really needed because they were lacking in the middle. The dude was a big time shot blocker despite playing little minutes and he was pretty good rim protector and defender. But he was injury prone, inconsistent on offense (but much better than Perkins) and constant rotation by the coaching staff just ruin that. As I said before, you can blame the coach.


Howard only played on the 01 Mavs...and that 01 team was nowhere near as good as the 12 Thunder.

See, this is my problem. I totally agree Dirk has had some very good teams around him. Nobody is saying otherwise...

I said 03 would be your best bet...and it's tough for some reasons. 1 being that Dirk got hurt in the WCF in game 3. Another being that is was a run and run team with no center that played no defense...and another being that we didn't have a player as good as Westbrook outside of Dirk.

The Thunder, on the other hand, had a much better built roster for the playoffs in my opinion.

I agree that the Thunder was better. But not based upon talent or help that Durant had. Dirk did have help. More help than he did in the 06 team and the 11 team. Imo, it was more the coaching and the ability to make the talent work.

The early Mavs team reminds me of the late 90s Lakers team. Full of talent with no direction. They got Phil Jackson and Tex Winter and lead a less talented team to championships. While Don Nelson was a good coach, but give them Rick Carlisle from the beginning and they'll probably do better.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I don't even like Durant's free throw centric, padded game. And I think it's kind of obvious he's a superior version of Dirk. A black, better ball handling, more athletic version of Dirk. It's pretty obvious he's better.

[Micku]

Nobody is saying Dirk didn't have talent, but you are propping up a guy that did this in the playoffs the year in question

13/8/1 36% fg 43% TS...and played shit defense.

And we were talking about the 12 team...but if you go down that road. Trust me...I'd much rather have a defensive big than Finley on either of those teams. Please give me the center equivalent of Ibaka in 03 over Finley. Please...we would have been so much better.

And he was still better than Perkins. Especially healthy.

And Bradley was supposed to be that defensive presence for the Mavs. It just didn't work out. The Mavs in 03 were dealing with some injury problems (including Bradley I believe) got injured and Dirk as well. So they didn't have any depth. If Dirk didn't get injured, then it may have been a closer series.

[SamuraiSWISH]

People forgetting how good Michael Finley was.

[DMAVS41]

And he was still better than Perkins. Especially healthy.

And Bradley was supposed to be that defensive presence for the Mavs. It just didn't work out. The Mavs in 03 were dealing with some injury problems (including Bradley I believe) got injured and Dirk as well. So they didn't have any depth. If Dirk didn't get injured, then it may have been a closer series.

Of course. That is why I said 03 was your best bet. If Dirk doesn't go down...I actually think the mavs would have won.

Again...they had talent...it was the wrong kind though. It would be like having Durant, Harden, Westbrook, and Curry on the Thunder in 12. Although that's better than what the Mavs had in 03...you get the point.

It's not always just about raw talent. Winning with no center or defense is really hard. the Mavs might have been able to do it in 03, but my point was that I would have gladly traded finley for a defensive big. The thunder team had loads of talent and was properly built for playoff success.

And I honestly don't know what you are talking about with Bradley in 03.

He gave us 7/6/1 in the regular season and 3/4/0 in the playoffs. Perkins gave the Thunder 5/7/1 in the regular season and 5/6/1 in the playoffs. I just don't think there is any difference at all in those guys...

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

People forgetting how good Michael Finley was.
Finley was a shotjacker and the mavs wouldve done better if they put the ball in Nashs hands more than Finley

DMAVS...........Ibaka is not close to Marc Gasol WTF:wtf:
Tyson is also better Ibaka is overrated defender all he does is block shots he has a good midrange shot but he needs creation he cant do anything off ball either. Tyson set screens, moves good, creates space on O for mates Marc initiates offense can pass, shot handle the rock. They both better defenders and far better offnsive

Perkins is worst player in the league. Hes EASY worst offensive player this nikka turns it over 30% of the time and the other times he bricks it

[DMAVS41]

People forgetting how good Michael Finley was.

Not really...he just wasn't as good as Westbrook.

[brain drain]

People forgetting how good Michael Finley was.

Except he's actually one of the more overrated players, at least by the time the Mavs started to make the playoffs.

By the time the Mavs started to become really good (2003) he already was a has-been, a former borderline all star without defense. The guy had like 1 good playoffs run (2002), one kinda good (but nowhere near all star worthy (2003) and all the rest was mediocre and worse.

I'll never understand why Cuban gave him that big contract, especially in contrast to trying to save money on Nash a few years later.

[DMAVS41]

Finley was a shotjacker and the mavs wouldve done better if they put the ball in Nashs hands more than Finley

DMAVS...........Ibaka is not close to Marc Gasol WTF:wtf:
Tyson is also better Ibaka is overrated defender all he does is block shots he has a good midrange shot but he needs creation he cant do anything off ball either. Tyson set screens, moves good, creates space on O for mates Marc initiates offense can pass, shot handle the rock. They both better defenders and far better offnsive

Perkins is worst player in the league. Hes EASY worst offensive player this nikka turns it over 30% of the time and the other times he bricks it

Who is the center equivalent to Ibaka? I don't care who it is...give me a center that can average 10/10/1 and play good defense and that team is raping people.

Ibaka fits perfectly next to Durant and Westbrook. A pf that can space the floor and defend and rebound. I agree about Gasol...not so much about Chandler. The point was just getting a player that fits perfectly next to them...Ibaka is the ideal pf for the Thunder. Just like a defensive minded solid rebounding center would be for the a WB/Dirk team.

[Black and White]

Who is the center equivalent to Ibaka? I don't care who it is...give me a center that can average 10/10/1 and play good defense and that team is raping people.

Ibaka fits perfectly next to Durant and Westbrook. A pf that can space the floor and defend and rebound.

This, how is Ibaka getting underrated here? Is it just to prop up Durant?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Mavs wouldve beat Spurs in 03 if Dirk didnt get injured. They still won game with LaFrentz in place of Dirk by 12:roll: :roll:
Timmy got fvcking lucky any playoff team coming out west wouldve dominated the Nets

Dirk carry one of worst teams to 67:wtf: look at that roster:wtf:
Dirks dad was dying when they fought Warriors and he wasnt himself ppl forgot how good Dirk was

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

This, how is Ibaka getting underrated here? Is it just to prop up Durant?
Ibaka is good player but he isnt close to Marc Gasol who won DPOY and was best player on team that made WCF and won 56 games plz Ibaka can never do that hes 3rd option at best Marc is 1st

[Dragonyeuw]

Durant... better stats while playing better defense.
Durant is the 2nd best player after LeBron.

Dirk was what, top 6-7? Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Duncan etc etc were always better.

Current Durant wouldn't be considered the 2nd best player amongst those players either, so not sure of your point.

[moe94]

Ibaka is good player but he isnt close to Marc Gasol who won DPOY and was best player on team that made WCF and won 56 games plz Ibaka can never do that hes 3rd option at best Marc is 1st
Z-Bo was the first option and quite clearly.

[Black and White]

Ibaka is good player but he isnt close to Marc Gasol who won DPOY and was best player on team that made WCF and won 56 games plz Ibaka can never do that hes 3rd option at best Marc is 1st

I never said he was in the same league as Gasol. But is Tyson Chandler in the same league as Gasol aswell? No. But that shouldn't discredit how good Ibaka can be. All DMavs is trying to say is this line up of

Westbrook + Prime Dirk + Tyson

Is similar to

Westbrook + Durant + Ibaka

and that the first lineup would have been able to win the title

[Black and White]

Z-Bo was the first option and quite clearly.

And yes, i was going to mention this also

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Z-Bo was the first option and quite clearly.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: this isnt 2011 nikka

Playoff
Marc-17/9 45% shoot w/ 3asts and 1to
Zbo-17/10 46% shoot w/ 2asts and 2to

they close offensively but Marc is WAYYYYYYYYY better defense he was easy their best player

[DMAVS41]

Mavs wouldve beat Spurs in 03 if Dirk didnt get injured. They still won game with LaFrentz in place of Dirk by 12:roll: :roll:
Timmy got fvcking lucky any playoff team coming out west wouldve dominated the Nets

Dirk carry one of worst teams to 67:wtf: look at that roster:wtf:
Dirks dad was dying when they fought Warriors and he wasnt himself ppl forgot how good Dirk was

Link to article about Dirk's dad? I never heard that before...

[Black and White]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: this isnt 2011 nikka

Playoff
Marc-17/9 45% shoot w/ 3asts and 1to
Zbo-17/10 46% shoot w/ 2asts and 2to

they close offensively but Marc is WAYYYYYYYYY better defense he was easy their best player

Wrong, it is not clear cut, they were both as good as each other, but on the offensive end i think z-bo was the first option, gasol was second

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Link to article about Dirk's dad? I never heard that before...
Dirk never talk about it b/c he didnt want excuses but his sis talk about it
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4094/a-close-look-at-dirk-nowitzki

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Wrong, it is not clear cut, they were both as good as each other, but on the offensive end i think z-bo was the first option, gasol was second
Ok if i give u that Zbo wasnt even top 3 best defender for them
Marc
Tony
Conley

all more important for defense
so when u look at both ends Marc was their best

[DMAVS41]

Dirk never talk about it b/c he didnt want excuses but his sis talk about it
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4094/a-close-look-at-dirk-nowitzki

Wow...I can't believe I never heard about that.

There were rumors in Dallas about something being wrong with Dirk emotionally the last month of the season, but there was a lot of speculation he was hiding an injury.

Cool...thanks for that. :cheers:

[DMAVS41]

Ok if i give u that Zbo wasnt even top 3 best defender for them
Marc
Tony
Conley

all more important for defense
so when u look at both ends Marc was their best

I don't think it's quite as clear as you do, but I think Gasol was their overall best player...or at least most important.

I do think Z-Bo was the clear cut go to guy on offense though.

[branslowski]

Dirk in replace of Durant on the Thunder would have won a title IMO. Main reasons:

1. Dirk would have a playmaker/ball handler on his team, Dirk isn't a playmaker ofcource (2ast type player) but he would have Westbrook, that's an automatic upgrade over Terry and Barea combined.

2. Ibaka>>>Chandler...Ibaka not only brings you defense and rebounding like Chandler, but he does it more consistently and better while having a better offensive game.

3. Giving Dirk THAT team, including how much better in the 4th Dirk is than Durant, Dirk's Thunder beat Heat in 12'.

But that's all hypotheticals and pure speculation on my part....Neway, I choose Dirk. Yea, Durant is a better scorer, but Dirk has that winning blood that gives him the edge over Durant here. Yea Dirk shot like 42% in the Finals, but watching those games he effected the whole team because the defenses were geared to stop him and he still dominated 4th quarters and closed games. Same shit with Kobe shooting 43% vs Magic, he dominated and had a huge impact 34ppg 7reb 6ast and defensive attention being glued to him freeing up Gasol...Players like Dirk, Kobe have winning blood....So yea, Dirk>>>Durant for me.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk in replace of Durant on the Thunder would have won a title IMO. Main reasons:

1. Dirk would have a playmaker/ball handler on his team, Dirk isn't a playmaker ofcource (2ast type player) but he would have Westbrook, that's an automatic upgrade over Terry and Barea combined.

2. Ibaka>>>Chandler...Ibaka not only brings you defense and rebounding like Chandler, but he does it more consistently and better while having a better offensive game.

3. Giving Dirk THAT team, including how much better in the 4th Dirk is than Durant, Dirk's Thunder beat Heat in 12'.

But that's all hypotheticals and pure speculation on my part....Neway, I choose Dirk. Yea, Durant is a better scorer, but Dirk has that winning blood that gives him the edge over Durant here. Yea Dirk shot like 42% in the Finals, but watching those games he effected the whole team because the defenses were geared to stop him and he still dominated 4th quarters and closed games. Same shit with Kobe shooting 43% vs Magic, he dominated and had a huge impact 34ppg 7reb 6ast and defensive attention being glued to him freeing up Gasol...Players like Dirk, Kobe have winning blood....So yea, Dirk>>>Durant for me.

Truth.com

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Black and White]

Dirk in replace of Durant on the Thunder would have won a title IMO. Main reasons:

1. Dirk would have a playmaker/ball handler on his team, Dirk isn't a playmaker ofcource (2ast type player) but he would have Westbrook, that's an automatic upgrade over Terry and Barea combined.

2. Ibaka>>>Chandler...Ibaka not only brings you defense and rebounding like Chandler, but he does it more consistently and better while having a better offensive game.

3. Giving Dirk THAT team, including how much better in the 4th Dirk is than Durant, Dirk's Thunder beat Heat in 12'.

But that's all hypotheticals and pure speculation on my part....Neway, I choose Dirk. Yea, Durant is a better scorer, but Dirk has that winning blood that gives him the edge over Durant here. Yea Dirk shot like 42% in the Finals, but watching those games he effected the whole team because the defenses were geared to stop him and he still dominated 4th quarters and closed games. Same shit with Kobe shooting 43% vs Magic, he dominated and had a huge impact 34ppg 7reb 6ast and defensive attention being glued to him freeing up Gasol...Players like Dirk, Kobe have winning blood....So yea, Dirk>>>Durant for me.

This

[moe94]

Cosigning "winning blood" and "killer instinct" as a basis for argument? Really?:coleman:

[creepingdeath]

Cosigning "winning blood" and "killer instinct" as a basis for argument? Really?:coleman:
Yeah, let's rather add "intimidation" to the equation, like "Pointguard".

[TheMarkMadsen]

Cosigning "winning blood" and "killer instinct" as a basis for argument? Really?:coleman:


you don't know about that winning blood? It's a lot better than losing blood

[DMAVS41]

Cosigning "winning blood" and "killer instinct" as a basis for argument? Really?:coleman:

It's what he means by it. We know Brans and what he means by that...he's talking about tangible stuff.

I'm a huge Durant fan...he's going to be a top 20 player when it's all said and done imo...

But if he wants to be on Dirk's level...he needs to win a title with the kind of rosters he's had now since 11

There is a reason why Dirk improves his teams' offense so much vs Durant.

Regular season? Dirk improve his teams offense by 9.3 points per 100 possessions

Durant improves it by 5.1

Playoffs? Dirk improves it by 6.2

The Thunder actually get better offensively without Durant in the playoffs by 1.2 points. This is not me saying Durant doesn't make the Thunder much better offensively...he of course does...It's a limited sample size and just speaks to how good the Thunder can still be without him on the floor.

But those numbers represent a little of the hidden value of what Dirk brings. A 7 foot elite shooting/scoring pf that is elite and running pick and rolls and spaces the floor has huge value that doesn't show up in the stat sheets.

I just don't think Durant is much better than his numbers...and his numbers are great, but Dirk is a guy that is way better than his numbers...as is a guy like Kobe. Don't think Durant falls into that category yet.

[Legends66NBA7]

you don't know about that winning blood? It's a lot better than losing blood

Please. Nobody is born with winning and losing blood.

Situations determine a lot on who wins and who doesn't.

[moe94]

Please. Nobody is born with winning and losing blood.

Situations determine a lot on who wins and who doesn't.

I think dude is being sarcastic.

[Legends66NBA7]

I think dude is being sarcastic.

Reading it again, your probably right. :oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

I think dude is being sarcastic.



Reading it again, your probably right. :oldlol:


:cheers:

'losing blood' get it..? :yaohappy:


losing blood is never a good thing

[KG215]

Could the poster that believes Dirk has "winning blood" and apparently Durant doesn't, tell me which playoff series Durant lost that he was a decided favorite in? Christ, he's 25 years old and already has a trip to the Finals (losing to LeBron at his peak), and a trip to the WCF losing to Dirk in "God Mode" with a savvy, veteran supporting cast playing very well. Yes, I would argue the 2011 Thunder had more talent than the 2011 Mavericks, but that talent was a bunch of 21-22 year olds getting their fist taste of playoff basketball past the 1st round.


Granted, I guess if you say you're going by current Durant vs. prime Dirk, I guess Dirk eventually won a title in his prime and showed he had that "winning blood", but he had that "winning blood" before winning a ring and so does Durant. To argue otherwise is just stupid. If your team is winning 50 or 55+ games and making deep playoff runs year in and year out, you've got "winning blood".

[branslowski]

Cosigning "winning blood" and "killer instinct" as a basis for argument? Really?:coleman:

If you didn't get it, go back to school Peter Griffin.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Could the poster that believes Dirk has "winning blood" and apparently Durant doesn't, tell me which playoff series Durant lost that he was a decided favorite in? Christ, he's 25 years old and already has a trip to the Finals (losing to LeBron at his peak), and a trip to the WCF losing to Dirk in "God Mode" with a savvy, veteran supporting cast playing very well. Yes, I would argue the 2011 Thunder had more talent than the 2011 Mavericks, but that talent was a bunch of 21-22 year olds getting their fist taste of playoff basketball past the 1st round.


Granted, I guess if you say you're going by current Durant vs. prime Dirk, I guess Dirk eventually won a title in his prime and showed he had that "winning blood", but he had that "winning blood" before winning a ring and so does Durant. To argue otherwise is just stupid. If your team is winning 50 or 55+ games and making deep playoff runs year in and year out, you've got "winning blood".


a simple blood test between the two should clear this right up :confusedshrug:

[moe94]

If you didn't get it, go back to school Peter Griffin.

That garbage will never go over anyone's head. The fact that you think it's a valid argument is hilarious, however.


a simple blood test between the two should clear this right up :confusedshrug:


Is it transferable? Can we cut Dirk during their next game and have Durant rub up against him? Taint himself with that "winning blood".

[Legends66NBA7]

:cheers:

'losing blood' get it..? :yaohappy:


losing blood is never a good thing

http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=33028p

[DMAVS41]

Could the poster that believes Dirk has "winning blood" and apparently Durant doesn't, tell me which playoff series Durant lost that he was a decided favorite in? Christ, he's 25 years old and already has a trip to the Finals (losing to LeBron at his peak), and a trip to the WCF losing to Dirk in "God Mode" with a savvy, veteran supporting cast playing very well. Yes, I would argue the 2011 Thunder had more talent than the 2011 Mavericks, but that talent was a bunch of 21-22 year olds getting their fist taste of playoff basketball past the 1st round.


Granted, I guess if you say you're going by current Durant vs. prime Dirk, I guess Dirk eventually won a title in his prime and showed he had that "winning blood", but he had that "winning blood" before winning a ring and so does Durant. To argue otherwise is just stupid. If your team is winning 50 or 55+ games and making deep playoff runs year in and year out, you've got "winning blood".

I hate to speak for Brans, but I'll try. Hopefully he clears it up.

I think what he is saying...is that currently Durant's numbers perhaps over-state his actual impact. And I agree with that. I don't think Durant does things to his teams offense or the opposing defense the way prime Dirk was able to do.

I posted both of their impacts on offense on/off in both the regular season and playoffs...and it's clear that dirk improves it significantly more. Now, I don't want to say that means I think Durant isn't great or close to Dirk...I definitely think he is.

But Durant just has to prove it. I'm not even a big "title" guy because it's such a team thing. Like you said...Dirk was good enough to win a title from about 02 or 03 on...he just didn't have the right team and right circumstances. However, he did win...and he won with less than what Durant has been working with now for a few years...

So until Durant wins...or at least starts making that offensive impact that Dirk did...I think we have to take prime Dirk over current Durant

[branslowski]

Could the poster that believes Dirk has "winning blood" and apparently Durant doesn't, tell me which playoff series Durant lost that he was a decided favorite in? Christ, he's 25 years old and already has a trip to the Finals (losing to LeBron at his peak), and a trip to the WCF losing to Dirk in "God Mode" with a savvy, veteran supporting cast playing very well. Yes, I would argue the 2011 Thunder had more talent than the 2011 Mavericks, but that talent was a bunch of 21-22 year olds getting their fist taste of playoff basketball past the 1st round.


Granted, I guess if you say you're going by current Durant vs. prime Dirk, I guess Dirk eventually won a title in his prime and showed he had that "winning blood", but he had that "winning blood" before winning a ring and so does Durant. To argue otherwise is just stupid. If your team is winning 50 or 55+ games and making deep playoff runs year in and year out, you've got "winning blood".

Nothing in my post was a diss towards Durant. You also don't actually disagree with my choosing of Dirk. I think Dirk is more of a winner and posses better intangibles ESPECIALLY in 4th quarters inwhich I alluded to.

No one is saying Durant can't win. I just prefer Dirk...But if you wanna just nitpick words to argue over because you still salty over previous ISH encounters between us, then be my guess, get mad. I know I'm not rightnow.:lol

[branslowski]

a simple blood test between the two should clear this right up :confusedshrug:

Winning blood has a nice zing to it actually.....Tis be da new word.:bowdown:

Truth.com

[TheReal Kendall]

I'll take Durant.

I like both players but you have more options with Durant on you're team.

Dirk has never been considered top 2 overall in the league

[DMAVS41]

I'll take Durant.

I like both players but you have more options with Durant on you're team.

Dirk has never been considered top 2 overall in the league

This just isn't true on either front...
People definitely rank Dirk as one of the 2 best players in the 2011 season.

[Black and White]

I'll take Durant.

I like both players but you have more options with Durant on you're team.

Dirk has never been considered top 2 overall in the league

Alot of people think Paul George is going to challenge Durant for the #2 spot this season tho.

And i agree with Dmavs Dirks 11 season he was one of the best that year

[TheReal Kendall]

This just isn't true on either front...
People definitely rank Dirk as one of the 2 best players in the 2011 season.

That was only 1 season though and even then he wasn't the 2nd best in the league

If I had to pick one or the other to be my main guy I would go with Durant but that's just my opinion.

Everything has already been stated in the thread, hate I joined the convo late

[DMAVS41]

That was only 1 season though and even then he wasn't the 2nd best in the league

If I had to pick one or the other to be my main guy I would go with Durant but that's just my opinion.

Everything has already been stated in the thread, hate I joined the convo late

I know he wasn't 2nd best in 2011

He was the BEST...:pimp:

[TheReal Kendall]

Alot of people think Paul George is going to challenge Durant for the #2 spot this season tho.

And i agree with Dmavs Dirks 11 season he was one of the best that year

Challenging and taking it is 2 different things.

I'm not saying Dirk wasn't one of the best that season but I don't feel like he was the 2nd best in the league.

People just "overrating" Dirk cause of that playoff run and cause he beat the heavily favored Heat. ( Not taking anything from Dirk and the Mavs)

[Black and White]

Challenging and taking it is 2 different things.

I'm not saying Dirk wasn't one of the best that season but I don't feel like he was the 2nd best in the league.

People just "overrating" Dirk cause of that playoff run and cause he beat the heavily favored Heat. ( Not taking anything from Dirk and the Mavs)

Yep i agree with you and see your point, if you take out Dirks playoff run LeBron and Durant were 1 and 2.

[Micku]

Of course. That is why I said 03 was your best bet. If Dirk doesn't go down...I actually think the mavs would have won.

Again...they had talent...it was the wrong kind though. It would be like having Durant, Harden, Westbrook, and Curry on the Thunder in 12. Although that's better than what the Mavs had in 03...you get the point.

It's not always just about raw talent. Winning with no center or defense is really hard. the Mavs might have been able to do it in 03, but my point was that I would have gladly traded finley for a defensive big. The thunder team had loads of talent and was properly built for playoff success.

I don't know if they'll win it, but it'll be a closer competition. They odds would've been more in their favor if Dirk didn't get hurt.

I think the Mavs needed a better coach to manage the talent together than anything else. They did need a better defensive center or a defensive player.


And I honestly don't know what you are talking about with Bradley in 03.

He gave us 7/6/1 in the regular season and 3/4/0 in the playoffs. Perkins gave the Thunder 5/7/1 in the regular season and 5/6/1 in the playoffs. I just don't think there is any difference at all in those guys...

Because Bradley played lesser minutes, but his production was better or same. He averaged like 21 mpg to Perkins 27 minutes. Bradley got like 2.1 blocks comparison to 1.1 blocks. He was one of the best shot blockers in the league, and solid rim protection. He also rebound better within his minutes than Perkins. That's what the Mavs got him was because of they hoped he'll play defense. His problem was he was injury prone and the coaches didn't know how to handle him. He wasn't good on offense, but he was better than Perkins. He wasn't great at defense like a Ben Wallace or Mutombo, but he was very solid and better than Perkins.


Who would you rather have tho, Juwan Howard or Serge Ibaka?

Depends on the team. Unless we're talking Ibaka beyond 12 then I would take Ibaka all the way.

The Mavs needed Ibaka more than they needed Juwan Hoard tho.

[TheReal Kendall]

Yep i agree with you and see your point, if you take out Dirks playoff run LeBron and Durant were 1 and 2.

:lol

Even with that playoff run Dirk wasn't even top 5 that season

[Black and White]

:lol

Even with that playoff run Dirk wasn't even top 5 that season

I would put him in the top 5 that season, but thats just my opinion, he played so well and i just cant ignore it. But if you dont want to include him in there thats fine also.

[Legends66NBA7]

:lol

Even with that playoff run Dirk wasn't even top 5 that season

No, he was.

[moe94]

No, he was.
Zero case for top 2, though.

[Micku]

No, he was.

I don't think he was consider top 5 until afterwards or during his playoff run. I think most ppl had (no order)

LeBron
Wade
Howard
Kobe
Rose (mvp)
Durant

Something along those lines. Nobody really expected Dirk to go off like that. He didn't even made the all nba first team that year. Durant and LeBron beat him.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Dirk was the best player in 11 and 2nd in 06 to Kobe. The Heat having the most preferential bias in ref history doesnt change that. Dirk murdered the #1 defense in the league in the 1st round, output more offense than prime Nash against the Suns and outplayed Duncan all in one playoff.

He also saw more double and triples than Wade who Dallas was using against Shaq. Dirk also has many other years as top 5 easy and the top 5 in that era was way more stacked than this year u had prime Shaq, KG, Duncan, Kobe T mac etc

[Black and White]

I don't think he was consider top 5 until afterwards or during his playoff run. I think most ppl had (no order)

LeBron
Wade
Howard
Kobe
Rose (mvp)
Durant

Something along those lines. Nobody really expected Dirk to go off like that. He didn't even made the all nba first team that year. Durant and LeBron beat him.

:biggums: Everyone else ok, but not him.

[TheMarkMadsen]

:biggums: Everyone else ok, but not him.

Wade was easily a top 5 player in 2011

[Black and White]

Wade was easily a top 5 player in 2011

Your entitled to your opinion, but i disagree. I think it was (in no order)

Lebron
Durant
Dirk
Kobe
Rose

[Micku]

:biggums: Everyone else ok, but not him.

*laughs* Why not? This was 2011. People constantly mentioned how Wade and LeBron were top 3-5. Wade had the numbers to back it up.

But if you don't think so, then that's ok.

[Black and White]

*laughs* Why not? This was 2011. People constantly mentioned how Wade and LeBron were top 3-5. Wade had the numbers to back it up.

But if you don't think so, then that's ok.

Wade was really good that year, no doubt, but i cant make a case for him over the 5 i mentioned

[fpliii]

Wade was easily a top 5 player in 2011

This. I had him, Dirk, or Dwight as MVP that season.

[moe94]

Wade was really good that year, no doubt, but i cant make a case for him over the 5 i mentioned
Howard wasn't top 5 in 2011? Really? Come on. If someone is going to be left out, it's Rose, regardless of his MVP.

[Micku]

Howard wasn't top 5 in 2011? Really? Come on. If someone is going to be left out, it's Rose, regardless of his MVP.

Yup. That's what I think too.

[Black and White]

Howard wasn't top 5 in 2011? Really? Come on. If someone is going to be left out, it's Rose, regardless of his MVP.

Yea they are interchangeable, I left Rose in there because of the MVP, but Howard can be there too, point is, can you give Wade a spot over the others?

[Legends66NBA7]

I don't think he was consider top 5 until afterwards or during his playoff run. I think most ppl had (no order)

I responded to someone who said he wasn't Top 5 even with his run.

[Micku]

I responded to someone who said he wasn't Top 5 even with his run.

Oh. I misread it. My bad.

[Pointguard]

I don't think he was consider top 5 until afterwards or during his playoff run. I think most ppl had (no order)

LeBron
Wade
Howard
Kobe
Rose (mvp)
Durant

Something along those lines. Nobody really expected Dirk to go off like that. He didn't even made the all nba first team that year. Durant and LeBron beat him.
You are totally right Micku

Wow, Dirk was averaging 23/7/2.6 and was somehow top three in the league??? This is revisionist history if I am ever hearing it. Those numbers are not even one dimensional superstar numbers. DH was 23 and 14 along with being defensive player of the year. DH was definitely a step down from Lebron and Wade. All three were great in at least three areas of the game and scored definitively better than Dirk, ok not DH. All three made all defensive teams.

Kobe was 25/5/5.

And Dirk wasn't winning big games and 4 quarter games during the regular season like Rose who scored more and had more assist than Dirk had rebounds. Rose scored more, dominated his position, won more with a new injured team. His team dominated the elite teams. Durant had practically equal rebound numbers as Dirk and scored 4 more points per game for the league lead.

Its amazing how people are now bending things to suite Dirk. When Wade does one of the greatest finals ever when he demolished Dirk, and had WAAAAAAY better numbers during the RS and Finals and was a top SG defender, he wasn't the best player in the league the next year, in fact most people didn't even have him second or third. But Dirk can be mysterious be the best when Wade and Lebron are in their prime with Dirk's game fallen off with garbage numbers and pathetic defense during the RS.

Its just hilarious.

[DirkNowitzki41]

^

Sometimes, you can just tell who doesn't watch basketball. :applause:

[Pointguard]

^

Sometimes, you can just tell who doesn't watch basketball. :applause:
:lol This is the hilarity of you guys. I dare you to point out how Dirk is better than Wade, Lebron or then DH.

I DARE YOU TO TRY.

You can tell who doesn't know basketball. There is no logical way you can possible think that Durant isn't better than Lebron if you believe Dirk was better than Lebron, Wade or then DH.

[Black and White]

:lol This is the hilarity of you guys. I dare you to point out how Dirk is better than Wade, Lebron or then DH.

I DARE YOU TO TRY.

You can tell who doesn't know basketball. There is no logical way you can possible think that Durant isn't better than Lebron if you believe Dirk was better than Lebron, Wade or then DH.

What??? Durant isn't a better player than LeBron, whats your point?

And noone is saying Dirk was better than LeBron that year.

[moe94]

^

Sometimes, you can just tell who doesn't watch basketball. :applause:

You literally have no arguments against him so you dodge with a baseless ad hominem. Pathetic and transparent.

[tpols]

I'll take Durant.

I like both players but you have more options with Durant on you're team.

Dirk has never been considered top 2 overall in the league
Durant wouldnt have been considered better than

Lebron
Kobe
Duncan
Dirk
Wade
Garnett

and probably a few others if we did this in the middle of Dirk's prime 06-09ish. Durant is a borderline top 10 player back then. Now its just Bron and Durant at the top with CP3. Prime Alonzo Mourning might be considered top 5 in todays league.

[Pointguard]

What??? Durant isn't a better player than LeBron, whats your point?

And noone is saying Dirk was better than LeBron that year.
One poster definitely said that.

[moe94]

Durant is a borderline top 10 player back then.
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/2332127_o.gif

Just how much better do you think LeBron is than Durant and Paul?

Would LeBron also not crack the top 5 back then, if Durant would be BORDERLINE top 10?

[Black and White]

One poster definitely said that.

That Dirk was better than LeBron??? Hell no, in the finals alone Dirk outplayed LeBron (because LeBron wet the bed), but the season as a whole nope, Dirk was not better.

[tpols]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/2332127_o.gif

Just how much better do you think LeBron is than Durant and Paul?

Would LeBron also not crack the top 5 back then, if Durant would be BORDERLINE top 10?
Lebron is a ton better than both Durant and CP3.. its not even close. The league has moved away from one superstar teams.. now we got teams like Indy/Spurs/Golden State/Blazers etc... well balanced and stacked. And can compete with two superstar teams like OKC.

[moe94]

Lebron is a ton better than both Durant and CP3.. its not even close. The league has moved away from one superstar teams.. now we got teams like Indy/Spurs/Golden State/Blazers etc... well balanced and stacked. And can compete with two superstar teams like OKC.

You're right, that era was absolutely no place for Durant. Iverson was winning MVPs over Shaq. What could Durant do against them!

[tpols]

You're right, that era was absolutely no place for Durant. Iverson was winning MVPs over Shaq. What could Durant do against them!
The guy I quoted said hed take Durant because 'Dirk has never been a top 2 player'. But Durant would not have been considered top 2 either had he been in his prime when Dirk was.:confusedshrug:

[moe94]

The guy I quoted said hed take Durant because 'Dirk has never been a top 2 player'. But Durant would not have been considered top 2 either had he been in his prime when Dirk was.:confusedshrug:

To which I agree. "Durant would be a borderline top 10 between 01-06" or whatever you said is flat out ridiculous.

[branslowski]

To which I agree. "Durant would be a borderline top 10 between 01-06" or whatever you said is flat out ridiculous.

Prob is ridiculous, but interesting:

Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Garnett
Dirk
LeBron
McGrady
Yao
Iverson
Wade
Kidd

Carter
Pierce
Elton Brand
Jermain O'Neal
Ray Allen

Where would Durant be ranked?

[tpols]

To which I agree. "Durant would be a borderline top 10 between 01-06" or whatever you said is flat out ridiculous.
Yea I exxagerated.:oldlol: Top 6-7ish more like it.. just like Dirk. Although I'd take Dirk over Durant just from watching them. Dirk plays straight to win the game. Everything he does is motivated by it. Durant is kinda in the same mold as Lebron where hes trying to get his efficiency perfect almost to a fault. Which is why he can average 31 on 50+% in the Finals and still get demolished.

[Odinn]

Prob is ridiculous, but interesting:

Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Garnett
Dirk
LeBron
McGrady
Yao
Iverson
Wade
Kidd

Carter
Pierce
Elton Brand
Jermain O'Neal
Ray Allen

Where would Durant be ranked?
Tier 1
Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/LeBron

Tier 2
Nowitzki/Garnett

Tier 3
Wade/McGrady(healthy)/Durant/Kidd


Although you can make a case for Wade being a Tier 2.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Tier 1
Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/LeBron

Tier 2
Nowitzki/Garnett

Tier 3
Wade/McGrady(healthy)/Durant/Kidd


Although you can make a case for Wade being a Tier 2.


From 01-06?

Tier 1: Kobe/Shaq/Duncan/KG

Tier 2: Iverson/Kidd/Pierce/Dirk/Webber/Durant/T Mac

Tier 3:Allen/O'Neal/Sheed/Wade/Carter

[branslowski]

So I'm seeing Durant being ranked 8-10 best player between 01-06' by posters....Still means borderline top 10?..

[Patrick Chewing]

Dirk beat the Heatles

[Pointguard]

From 01-06?

Tier 1: Kobe/Shaq/Duncan/KG

Tier 2: Iverson/Kidd/Pierce/Dirk/Webber/Durant/T Mac

Tier 3:Allen/O'Neal/Sheed/Wade/Carter
Yeah this is more like it. Odinn has severe KG issues..

[Odinn]

Shoot. I didn't realize that was about '01-'06 span. I just ranked them while thinking their proven bests.

There were at that span, we had more than 2 potential all-time greats(more like top 20-25 ever) in their early or late prime or even peak. There isn't a this weak span in the history as for top 20-25 candidates. And Durant taking advantage of it.


It is kinda ridiculous getting criticized by the poster that claimed once KG was on the same level as a scorer with Moses Malone.:roll: And he agrees with a Kobe stan that put Shaq to in his Tier 3 while Shaq being a 25/11 guy in that span. Great job ISH.:roll:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Shoot. I didn't realize that was about '01-'06 span. I just ranked them while thinking their proven bests.

There were at that span, we had more than 2 potential all-time greats(more like top 20-25 ever) in their early or late prime or even peak. There isn't a this weak span in the history as for top 20-25 candidates. And Durant taking advantage of it.


It is kinda ridiculous getting criticized by the poster that claimed once KG was on the same level as a scorer with Moses Malone.:roll: And he agrees with a Kobe stan that put Shaq to in his Tier 3 while Shaq being a 25/11 guy in that span. Great job ISH.:roll:

Keep emberassing yourself

[And1AllDay]

Dirk beat the Heatles

True, but he did have future DPOY Chandler in the middle, and Jason Terry's hot hand (18 ppg and 40% from the arc). Dirk was amazing that series, but like all Champs, he had some help.

[Pointguard]

It is kinda ridiculous getting criticized by the poster that claimed once KG was on the same level as a scorer with Moses Malone.:roll: And he agrees with a Kobe stan that put Shaq to in his Tier 3 while Shaq being a 25/11 guy in that span. Great job ISH.:roll:
I said KG was a more versatile scorer and in the playoffs there wasn't that much of a difference in playoff scoring in their prime. They shot practically the same percentage with Moses being at point blank range. KG was much better defender, a much better passer, a much better decision maker and much better defensive rebounder.

But they were both probably the two best go-hard taller superstars in the game. When the M&M train came even Kareem had to side step.

[KG215]

Shoot. I didn't realize that was about '01-'06 span. I just ranked them while thinking their proven bests.

There were at that span, we had more than 2 potential all-time greats(more like top 20-25 ever) in their early or late prime or even peak. There isn't a this weak span in the history as for top 20-25 candidates. And Durant taking advantage of it.

It is kinda ridiculous getting criticized by the poster that claimed once KG was on the same level as a scorer with Moses Malone.:roll: And he agrees with a Kobe stan that put Shaq to in his Tier 3 while Shaq being a 25/11 guy in that span. Great job ISH.:roll:
You say that like Durant hasn't already shown, barring some sort of injury or unforeseeable fall-off in ability, he's going to be a top 25 player all-time.

It still seems like people aren't properly appreciating just how good Durant is right now. For starters, he's actually a good defender at this point in his career, and I think some people still have some misconceptions about his defense based on the 2012 Finals or any season from his rookie season through 2012; but he's actually developed into a damn good defensive player. Not saying he's elite or great or anything but, at the very least, he's now a positive impact player on defense. So, on top of that, you've got a SF in the midst of a 2-year peak looking like he's going to average something like 28-8-5-1-1 on nearly 50/40/90 shooting and 60%+ TS while being the best player on one of the best teams in the league. Not to mention he's a player who elevates his game in the playoffs which makes him even more special.

I've actually said in the past on here that I think this is a very weak era for top end talent, but Durant is absolutely a player who would be, at the very least, top 10 in every era, and top 3-5 at plenty of other random times throughout NBA history. I think the best way to figure it out would be to take 2013 or 2014 Durant and go year by year and figure out where he'd rank in 2005, then 2006, then 2007, etc.

[DMAVS41]

You are totally right Micku

Wow, Dirk was averaging 23/7/2.6 and was somehow top three in the league??? This is revisionist history if I am ever hearing it. Those numbers are not even one dimensional superstar numbers. DH was 23 and 14 along with being defensive player of the year. DH was definitely a step down from Lebron and Wade. All three were great in at least three areas of the game and scored definitively better than Dirk, ok not DH. All three made all defensive teams.

Kobe was 25/5/5.

And Dirk wasn't winning big games and 4 quarter games during the regular season like Rose who scored more and had more assist than Dirk had rebounds. Rose scored more, dominated his position, won more with a new injured team. His team dominated the elite teams. Durant had practically equal rebound numbers as Dirk and scored 4 more points per game for the league lead.

Its amazing how people are now bending things to suite Dirk. When Wade does one of the greatest finals ever when he demolished Dirk, and had WAAAAAAY better numbers during the RS and Finals and was a top SG defender, he wasn't the best player in the league the next year, in fact most people didn't even have him second or third. But Dirk can be mysterious be the best when Wade and Lebron are in their prime with Dirk's game fallen off with garbage numbers and pathetic defense during the RS.

Its just hilarious.

When you lead the 11 Mavs roster.....and a season ending injury one to a key player...and your team goes 2-7 without you...to 57 wins...

And then are easily the best player when the games matter more en route to the title. Yea...you have an argument for the best player in the league?

How can anyone say Lebron or Wade were better than Dirk in 11? They had the best team and Dirk beat them...LOL...and Dirk led his team to 1 less win in a much tougher conference with a worse team?

Howard is the only player in 11 that has an argument over Dirk...and the playoffs from Dirk trump that

Did you really just list Kobe over Dirk in 11? It's not even debatable.

ISH...where meaningless regular season games trump the games that actually matter.

It's just beyond comical at this point. stop focusing on meaningless regular season games against shit competition. If you really think Dirk would be a better player because he played a few more minutes per game agains the worst teams in the league throughout his career...you really need to rethink how you evaluate player.

And if you are going to use regular season stats so much...at least look at the true impact of Dirk. Again...57 wins despite missing his teammates to injury quite a lot throughout the year. And the team going 2-7 without him.

And....his on court impact.

Improved the offense 10.1 points per 100 possessions
Improved the defense 6 points per 100 possessions

Combined +16

I don't even have to look. I know that is better than Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Durant, Rose, and Howard in the regular season. but you'll avoid those facts like the plague and focus on how often the other guys stayed in to beat the bobcats by 20 instead of 12.

So lets get this straight. Dirk played pathetic defense....yet he improved his teams defense 6 points per 100 possessions. While he played...the Mavs had a solid 103 defensive rating. Yet you take Rose over Dirk...and say nothing about defense. Rose's team got 7.4 points worse on defense per 100 possessions when Rose was in the game. When Rose was on the floor...they had a 102.2 defensive rating in 11...barely better than the Dirk led Mavs...hahaahah. Don't you hate facts? And Rose was playing with better defenders than Dirk was. That's the sick part of it...

As for the clutch stuff. Dirk averaged 32/8/4 on 63.4% TS in crunch time in 2011 per 36 minutes. The Mavs went 32-13 in games that entered crunch time.

Rose averaged 36/8/7 on 52.9% TS in crunch time in 2011 per 36 minutes. The Bulls went 31-12 in games that entered crunch time.

Really...Dirk wasn't winning close games in the 4th qtr? Again...don't you hate facts? Of course you won't care about a 10.5% TS difference that is enormous, but Dirk was easily as good or better than Rose last in games.

You just really need to start putting more emphasis on the playoffs. Especially if you are going to take Kobe, Rose, Durant...over Dirk in 2011 overall. I swear...I haven't even seen you mention the playoffs when comparing a player....like ever. Why? Do you not agree that the playoffs matter more? I mean...do you think Kevin Love is better than prime Dirk?

I guess if you are a KG stan you have to greatly value production in the regular season on bad teams, but you take it to the extremes...

[Odinn]

You say that like Durant hasn't already shown, barring some sort of injury or unforeseeable fall-off in ability, he's going to be a top 25 player all-time.

It still seems like people aren't properly appreciating just how good Durant is right now. For starters, he's actually a good defender at this point in his career, and I think some people still have some misconceptions about his defense based on the 2012 Finals or any season from his rookie season through 2012; but he's actually developed into a damn good defensive player. Not saying he's elite or great or anything but, at the very least, he's now a positive impact player on defense. So, on top of that, you've got a SF in the midst of a 2-year peak looking like he's going to average something like 28-8-5-1-1 on nearly 50/40/90 shooting and 60%+ TS while being the best player on one of the best teams in the league. Not to mention he's a player who elevates his game in the playoffs which makes him even more special.

I've actually said in the past on here that I think this is a very weak era for top end talent, but Durant is absolutely a player who would be, at the very least, top 10 in every era, and top 3-5 at plenty of other random times throughout NBA history. I think the best way to figure it out would be to take 2013 or 2014 Durant and go year by year and figure out where he'd rank in 2005, then 2006, then 2007, etc.
That was my point. Since it's all relative comparisons, it is truly important what's related to it.

Let me ask you something then. I think 2002-03 would be more accurate instead of 2005-2007 span.

Where would you rank 2012-13 Durant if he played in 2002-03 season?
Pretty select company as his competitors there.
Tim Duncan at his absolute best.
Shaq was a little bit out of shape but still 27/12/3/2 guy.
Kobe Bryant entered his prime. (although you can claim he did in 2000-01)
Nowitzki, too. If he wasn't injured the Mavs could keep their NBA Finals dream alive. (it'd be ignorant to say the Mavs would win it all if there wasn't the injury. Before Dirk going down, the Spurs were leading 2-1 and Duncan was dominating the series)
T-Mac had his best season.
KG had one of his best seasons as well.
C-Webb went down but he was on his form.
It was Kidd's highest scoring season and playoff. Also he led the league in apg once more.

Calling C-Webb and Kidd potential top 25 ever is a bit optimistic but as for top talents, it was one of the best season I've ever witnessed.

[Odinn]

I said KG was a more versatile scorer and in the playoffs there wasn't that much of a difference in playoff scoring in their prime. They shot practically the same percentage with Moses being at point blank range. KG was much better defender, a much better passer, a much better decision maker and much better defensive rebounder.

But they were both probably the two best go-hard taller superstars in the game. When the M&M train came even Kareem had to side step.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=279443

Let's not lie. Shall we? There isn't a single post that you used 'versatile scorer'. You mentioned KG had more versatile overall game.

[Pointguard]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=279443

Let's not lie. Shall we? There isn't a single post that you used 'versatile scorer'. You mentioned KG had more versatile overall game.

:lol Wow, can you read?

From the thread above are two examples below.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7895250&postcount=41

"It doesn't compensate for all of KG numerous advantages. Its not close. And in total offense KG has an advantage because of assist/ lack of turnovers/ being much more skilled/ versatility/shooting/ decision making and range."

It's plain as day. But you should know better.

And in a response to Legends66NBA post 44:
"If you seen Moses play, his game was straight up what you saw: he put his head down and bulled toward the basket, frequently getting his own rebound."

[KG215]

That was my point. Since it's all relative comparisons, it is truly important what's related to it.

Let me ask you something then. I think 2002-03 would be more accurate instead of 2005-2007 span.

Where would you rank 2012-13 Durant if he played in 2002-03 season?
Pretty select company as his competitors there.
Tim Duncan at his absolute best.
Shaq was a little bit out of shape but still 27/12/3/2 guy.
Kobe Bryant entered his prime. (although you can claim he did in 2000-01)
Nowitzki, too. If he wasn't injured the Mavs could keep their NBA Finals dream alive. (it'd be ignorant to say the Mavs would win it all if there wasn't the injury. Before Dirk going down, the Spurs were leading 2-1 and Duncan was dominating the series)
T-Mac had his best season.
KG had one of his best seasons as well.
C-Webb went down but he was on his form.
It was Kidd's highest scoring season and playoff. Also he led the league in apg once more.

Calling C-Webb and Kidd potential top 25 ever is a bit optimistic but as for top talents, it was one of the best season I've ever witnessed.
I think he'd for sure be behind Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe. I know a lot of people on here love T-Mac and think it's a no-brainer that 2003 T-Mac (his peak) was better than any version of Durant we've seen so far, but I think it'd at least be debatable between he and Durant on who should or would rank where. Basically, after Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe, I think you could make a case for Durant being higher than all of the other players you listed.

[NumberSix]

I think he'd for sure be behind Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe. I know a lot of people on here love T-Mac and think it's a no-brainer that 2003 T-Mac (his peak) was better than any version of Durant we've seen so far, but I think it'd at least be debatable between he and Durant on who should or would rank where. Basically, after Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe, I think you could make a case for Durant being higher than all of the other players you listed.
T-Mac had more of a man's game than Durant though. Kobe DEFINITELY had more of a man's game than Durant.

Maybe you can say it doesn't matter, but to me it does matter that he is so frail and officiated with marshmallow padded kid-gloves.

IMO, its a fair criticism. I get sick of seeing him trying to handle the ball while fumbling around like a newborn giraffe and hearing the refs whistle to send him to the free throw line for dribbling the ball off of his own foot.

[Pointguard]

When you lead the 11 Mavs roster.....and a season ending injury one to a key player...and your team goes 2-7 without you...to 57 wins...
Five of those teams beat Dallas at home with Dirk and these loses were on the road right after they lost their second best scorer along with Dirk.



And then are easily the best player when the games matter more en route to the title. Yea...you have an argument for the best player in the league?

How can anyone say Lebron or Wade were better than Dirk in 11? They had the best team and Dirk beat them...LOL...and Dirk led his team to 1 less win in a much tougher conference with a worse team?
Chauncey Billups was better than Kobe and Shaq? Cause Kobe and Shaq were massacred.

One series should never decide who is the better player. When Wade had a much better regular season and a vastly superior finals than Dirk had 2011, he wasn't considered the best player in the game - most people had Kobe ahead of him who had no imprint in the postseason. So no way should one dimensional Dirk be super special and get the nod here.

Dallas won on defense. Lebron and Wade usually score much more than they did - they usually score more than Dirk (Durant and Kobe too). Dirk can't get that credit. And YOU are a hardcore believer that defense and rebounding is a reason why teams win. You argue that like a crazed maniac here on the boards. You can't have it both ways. When Tyson left, I think the only starter gone, they didn't win a playoff game the next year. Not ONE. With Dirk producing like he did the year before.

And its very different if Dirk just scored waaaay more than he usually does but the main reason they won is that this eras highest scorers were basically trash when they played Dallas.


Howard is the only player in 11 that has an argument over Dirk...and the playoffs from Dirk trump that.

Interesting - you must value defense and rebounding - wait no you obviously don't. His team faired well in the first half of the season...



It's just beyond comical at this point. stop focusing on meaningless regular season games against shit competition. If you really think Dirk would be a better player because he played a few more minutes per game agains the worst teams in the league throughout his career...you really need to rethink how you evaluate player.

Sorry the entire history of sports counts all games. Not just me. Not just basketball, its in all sports. Stop trying to make up your own rules. Dirk plays mediocre defense which is half the game and you often argue that its why Chicago had the best record. Its a high value point.

Creativity is also a very big mark for offensive players in all fluid sports and Dirk is mediocre there as well. Lebron and Wade are way more creative, better passers, more resourceful, better passers, creators for others and better offensive players overall. They are much better defenders. Position wise they are the best rebounders at their position while Dirk is mediocre. There is no advantage Dirk has on them being that scoring is part of offense. You could say clutch shooting but Terry has that on them too.

And sorry if you take the 105 games played over the course of the year, line up their best games to worse games against Dirks they both have like a 80/25 type of advantage. If you include defense its jumps to 85% of all games where they play better than Dirk. In no sport would that type of disparity be given to the Dirk type of guy. Its ludicrous.

And Dirk plays with a handicap - he guards off his position way more than an average player. There are no other top 40 maybe top 50 players that did this.



I guess if you are a KG stan you have to greatly value production in the regular season on bad teams, but you take it to the extremes...

KG won a title as the best player and played on more contending teams than Dirk ever did while just focusing on defense when KG was beyond his prime. You greatly underestimate defense, without Tyson Chandler Dirk wouldn't be in conversation of best PFs. But defense doesn't factor in for you.

[0000000]

Prime Dirk IMO. Durant should get in that level however.

[DMAVS41]

Five of those teams beat Dallas at home with Dirk and these loses were on the road right after they lost their second best scorer along with Dirk.


Chauncey Billups was better than Kobe and Shaq? Cause Kobe and Shaq were massacred.

One series should never decide who is the better player. When Wade had a much better regular season and a vastly superior finals than Dirk had 2011, he wasn't considered the best player in the game - most people had Kobe ahead of him who had no imprint in the postseason. So no way should one dimensional Dirk be super special and get the nod here.

Dallas won on defense. Lebron and Wade usually score much more than they did - they usually score more than Dirk (Durant and Kobe too). Dirk can't get that credit. And YOU are a hardcore believer that defense and rebounding is a reason why teams win. You argue that like a crazed maniac here on the boards. You can't have it both ways. When Tyson left, I think the only starter gone, they didn't win a playoff game the next year. Not ONE. With Dirk producing like he did the year before.

And its very different if Dirk just scored waaaay more than he usually does but the main reason they won is that this eras highest scorers were basically trash when they played Dallas.

Interesting - you must value defense and rebounding - wait no you obviously don't. His team faired well in the first half of the season...



Sorry the entire history of sports counts all games. Not just me. Not just basketball, its in all sports. Stop trying to make up your own rules. Dirk plays mediocre defense which is half the game and you often argue that its why Chicago had the best record. Its a high value point.

Creativity is also a very big mark for offensive players in all fluid sports and Dirk is mediocre there as well. Lebron and Wade are way more creative, better passers, more resourceful, better passers, creators for others and better offensive players overall. They are much better defenders. Position wise they are the best rebounders at their position while Dirk is mediocre. There is no advantage Dirk has on them being that scoring is part of offense. You could say clutch shooting but Terry has that on them too.

And sorry if you take the 105 games played over the course of the year, line up their best games to worse games against Dirks they both have like a 80/25 type of advantage. If you include defense its jumps to 85% of all games where they play better than Dirk. In no sport would that type of disparity be given to the Dirk type of guy. Its ludicrous.

And Dirk plays with a handicap - he guards off his position way more than an average player. There are no other top 40 maybe top 50 players that did this.



KG won a title as the best player and played on more contending teams than Dirk ever did while just focusing on defense when KG was beyond his prime. You greatly underestimate defense, without Tyson Chandler Dirk wouldn't be in conversation of best PFs. But defense doesn't factor in for you.


Well...I have Wade as the best player in 06...actually. LOL

KG was on more contending teams? Oh...you mean when he joined two other first ballot hall of famers and only won 1 title? When he got his shit kicked by Pau Gasol in the 10 finals? That guy?

You can keep ignoring it all you want. First is that the playoffs matter more when comparing all time great players. It's just a fact. Second is that Dirk improved his team more than anyone you have mentioned in the 2011 regular season. Not only was his team garbage without him, but in games they were garbage when he went to the bench. As the offense fell off over 10 points and the defense fell by 6 points. What player have you mentioned made that kind of impact on his team? Nobody...

Stop under-rating Dirk's regular season impact! You can't value the regular season and then laugh off winning 57 despite the circumstances in the much tougher conference. Shit...the Mavs tied for the 4th best record in the league.

I do value defense. I just also value offense and overall impact. By you ranking Rose over Dirk...you clearly don't value either. Rose was a worse defender than Dirk in 11...and a worse offensive player as well. And he choked in the playoffs.

It's not just 1 series. Dirk was the best player in the playoffs. It's a fact. And when you are the best player in the playoffs...and you beat nearly all the guys you mentioned as well...I mean...it speaks volumes. Again...Dirk was the best player in the playoffs. And he beat LA, Kobe, Gasol, Durant, Westbrook, Lebron, Wade, and Bosh.

With many of those guys having more help.

Dirk just had an under-rated regular season. I've shown you why...yet you avoid it. If Dirk doesn't miss those 9 games. The Mavs win 60...

Yet you want to give Rose all this credit for playing worse defense...having more help...and playing in the lesser conference? And then playing much worse in the playoffs?

Like..seriously dude. Check your bias...nobody being remotely objective would look back at the entirety of 2011 and conclude Rose was a better player than Dirk. Nobody.

Please respond to the numbers I posted. You claimed Dirk didn't win any close games. I torched that assertion. You also claimed that Dirk didn't have the impact those other guys did...I torched that one as well.


All the stuff you say about Wade and Lebron is just false. That is the flaw in how you view the game. You are one of those retarded offense vs offense and defense vs defense guys. I've repeatedly shredded just how flawed that way of thinking is. You get stupid conclusions like KG better than Magic and Kobe...we've been over it. You simply don't give Dirk enough credit for his true impact on the game. What he does offensively overall combined with his much better defense and rebounding (especially in his prime) than you give him credit for makes one of the best impact players ever. See...he's way better than his stats show. It's why his impact in 11 is shown in those on/off stuff.

And I also find it funny coming from someone that rails on Dirk for his 07 series. If one series is just not that big of a deal...than I guess Dirk has a claim for best player in 07. Shit...he was the best regular season player...if one series and the playoffs don't matter much. Guess he takes the cake on that one...

ISH...where averaging 28/8/3 on 61% TS while having the most clutch playoff run of the era by far doesn't matter as much as meaningless regular season games...of which Dirk won at a rate as well as anyone with less help.

Seriously? Wade, Lebron, and Bosh only mustered up 58 wins in a weak ass conference. If they were as good as you say they are...how did Dirk lead his team to only 1 less win despite injuries and playing in a much harder conference? How did that happen?

I also just have to laugh at the "without Chandler" Dirk is nothing comment. Think about that for a second. That is what Dirk needs to win. A guy nobody in the league even wanted...and a 6th man one dimensional sub 20 ppg scorer. Yet all the other guys you mention in 11 need more. Durant couldn't win with Westbrook and Harden. What does that make Lebron? Worse than nothing? Dude ****ing needed Wade and Bosh and deep as **** teams to win. Kobe has needed more help than Dirk had in 11...although at least it's more comparable than what Lebron/Wade have needed...and what Durant is looking like he'll need.

Like seriously. You people that use Chandler against Dirk...what the **** are you thinking? Is that supposed to be a negative? Like...yea, Dirk's good, but he needed Tyson Chandler and Terry to win a title so it's not that impressive. That is seriously going through your retarded minds?

[Pointguard]

KG was on more contending teams? Oh...you mean when he joined two other first ballot hall of famers and only won 1 title? When he got his shit kicked by Pau Gasol in the 10 finals? That guy?

We can bring up bad playoff nonsense all day right? They won on defense and neither of the two were good defenders and past prime KG lead the team in scoring in the playoffs.


You can keep ignoring it all you want. First is that the playoffs matter more when comparing all time great players. It's just a fact. Second is that Dirk improved his team more than anyone you have mentioned in the 2011 regular season. Not only was his team garbage without him, but in games they were garbage when he went to the bench. As the offense fell off over 10 points and the defense fell by 6 points. What player have you mentioned made that kind of impact on his team? Nobody...
They won two finals games with Dirk playing bad for most of the game.


I do value defense. I just also value offense and overall impact. By you ranking Rose over Dirk...you clearly don't value either. Rose was a worse defender than Dirk in 11...and a worse offensive player as well. And he choked in the playoffs.
Rose greatly affected ever elite PG over the course of the year and guarded DWade very well in the playoffs. Dirk plays with a handicapp. You are just being stupid now.


All the stuff you say about Wade and Lebron is just false. That is the flaw in how you view the game. You are one of those retarded offense vs offense and defense vs defense guys. I've repeatedly shredded just how flawed that way of thinking is. You get stupid conclusions like KG better than Magic and Kobe...we've been over it.
:lol I love it when I get you flustered. You begin lying, saying off the wall stuff and say you destroyed stuff. You destroyed your composure and that's been about it.

Is this lie on me day here. LOL, I know I never said that about Magic because I never have Magic ranked below three all time.



And I also find it funny coming from someone that rails on Dirk for his 07 series. If one series is just not that big of a deal...than I guess Dirk has a claim for best player in 07. Shit...he was the best regular season player...if one series and the playoffs don't matter much. Guess he takes the cake on that one...
I thought Nash had his best year that year and deserved it that year moreso than the other two years he won. Offensively he was better than Dirk as was Kobe too. Duncan was the best all around player with Lebron behind him. They were all much better in the playoffs. That year was tigher than usual but if Dirk played good defense I would have given him the regular season.



ISH...where averaging 28/8/3 on 61% TS while having the most clutch playoff run of the era by far doesn't matter as much as meaningless regular season games...of which Dirk won at a rate as well as anyone with less help.

Seriously? Wade, Lebron, and Bosh only mustered up 58 wins in a weak ass conference. If they were as good as you say they are...how did Dirk lead his team to only 1 less win despite injuries and playing in a much harder conference? How did that happen?

They were a well constructed team that could win two games in the finals with him playing bad most of the game.

[Legends66NBA7]

You greatly underestimate defense, without Tyson Chandler Dirk wouldn't be in conversation of best PFs.

What is this implying ?

[Pointguard]

What is this implying ?
Without Tyson's defense they didn't win a playoff game the next year. If he wasn't around in 2011 no way does Dirk get lumped in with Barkley, Malone, McHale and Garnett. Dirk wasn't in that conversation before.

[Legends66NBA7]

Without Tyson's defense they didn't win a playoff game the next year. If he wasn't around in 2011 no way does Dirk get lumped in with Barkley, Malone, McHale and Garnett. Dirk wasn't in that conversation before.

They didn't win a playoff game because the roster was completely different.

When you state one of the best PF's, I assume it's the Top 10. And Nowitzki had already enough on his resume to be considered one of the Top 50 players of all-time, which would put him in the Top 10 of PF's already. So really, Tyson Chandler had very little (if not nothing) to do with Nowtizki being one of the best PF's. Infact, he outproduced him.

And I can't see what case McHale has over Nowitzki outside of peak play. His individual achievements were already better before the ring. I don't really see how he can be above him all-time before that time. Infact, what puts him over Bob Pettit and Elvin Hayes outside of his rings ?

[DMAVS41]

We can bring up bad playoff nonsense all day right? They won on defense and neither of the two were good defenders and past prime KG lead the team in scoring in the playoffs.

They won two finals games with Dirk playing bad for most of the game.

Rose greatly affected ever elite PG over the course of the year and guarded DWade very well in the playoffs. Dirk plays with a handicapp. You are just being stupid now.

:lol I love it when I get you flustered. You begin lying, saying off the wall stuff and say you destroyed stuff. You destroyed your composure and that's been about it.

Is this lie on me day here. LOL, I know I never said that about Magic because I never have Magic ranked below three all time.


I thought Nash had his best year that year and deserved it that year moreso than the other two years he won. Offensively he was better than Dirk as was Kobe too. Duncan was the best all around player with Lebron behind him. They were all much better in the playoffs. That year was tigher than usual but if Dirk played good defense I would have given him the regular season.



They were a well constructed team that could win two games in the finals with him playing bad most of the game.


You can't follow as usual. I'm saying your retarded way of thinking leads to terrible conclusions. I didn't say you specifically said KG was better than Magic. Although I don't know how you stay consistent and not say that if individual defense is this important.

Rose made no impact on defense. His team absurdly better without him. Just a fact. It was the bench play defensively that made the Bulls such a great team....great regular season team in a shit conference of course.

Look. It all comes down to you not valuing the playoffs much. Which is fine. Just don't pretend like you do.

Because in the regular season...Dirk was at least a top 3 impact guy on his team. Only Rose and Howard would have a case for better...and really only Howard.

Then Dirk was just factually the best player in the playoffs. If that doesn't add up to best player overall in 11...then so that is your take...fine.

Just don't come on here and act like you don't just prop up guys for regular season shit when they get rocked in the playoffs.

You ranked Kobe and Rose over Dirk in 11...nothing else needs to be said. You are a hater...

[DMAVS41]

Without Tyson's defense they didn't win a playoff game the next year. If he wasn't around in 2011 no way does Dirk get lumped in with Barkley, Malone, McHale and Garnett. Dirk wasn't in that conversation before.

Actually he was by anyone that watched them all play. I think even Kblaze had Dirk over Malone years ago...and he's not a big Dirk fan at all.

Keep thinking that though.

Also, the same could be said for any of them. Take Stockton away from Malone. KG doesn't go to Boston. Barkley never gets those Suns teams...etc.

They were all made. The difference? Tyson Chandler is easily the worst 2nd best guy out of any guys the above players played with.

I mean...are you listening to yourself right now? You are knocking Dirk for needing Chandler to win. Malone never won with Stockton and Sloan...and really good teams. Barkley never won with a loaded Suns team. KG needed an absurdly stacked team to win...

But yea...Dirk needing Chandler is a knock...GTFO

[NumberSix]

You can't follow as usual. I'm saying your retarded way of thinking leads to terrible conclusions.

Rose made no impact on defense. His team absurdly better without him. Just a fact. It was the bench play defensively that made the Bulls such a great team....great regular season team in a shit conference of course.

Look. It all comes down to you not valuing the playoffs much. Which is fine. Just don't pretend like you do.

Because in the regular season...Dirk was at least a top 3 impact guy on his team. Only Rose and Howard would have a case for better...and really only Howard.

Then Dirk was just factually the best player in the playoffs. If that doesn't add up to best player overall in 11...then so that is your take...fine.

Just don't come on here and act like you don't just prop up guys for regular season shit when they get rocked in the playoffs.

You ranked Kobe and Rose over Dirk in 11...nothing else needs to be said. You are a hater...
Chalk it up to the dumb mentality of sports fans. Every current, OK player is an all time great...

But...

Every all time great of the past is an untouchable god who no current player could ever touch.

If Dirk had the same career but 10 years earlier, it would be blasphemous to compare Durant to him. Since they play at the same time, fcuk it. Durant is entering his prime and Dirk is past his. Meh. Let's pretend Durant is better only because he's better right now.

[DMAVS41]

Chalk it up to the dumb mentality of sports fans. Every current, OK player is an all time great...

But...

Every all time great of the past is an untouchable god who no current player could ever touch.

Could you imagine if Malone and Barkley played out their entire careers in this era and never won? With Malone playing his entire career with Jason Kidd and Barkley playing on at least a few loaded teams?

These morons would be saying;

Malone/Barkley can't touch McHale...etc.

What gets me the most...is that people think it's a knock on Dirk that he needed Chandler to win. Chandler was nothing before 11. No team in the league even wanted him. And it wasn't his contract because it was expiring...the league concluded he was a bum. A cast off player nobody wanted...and somehow Dirk needing a guy that can't average a double double to win is a knock on him?

Now, don't get me wrong, I actually like Chandler and thought he was great for us, but certainly nowhere near as good as most 2nd best guys on title winning teams.

[Pointguard]

They didn't win a playoff game because the roster was completely different.
Tyson Chandler was the only starter missing. That definitely not a completely different roster. Starters are considered the core.


When you state one of the best PF's, I assume it's the Top 10. And Nowitzki had already enough on his resume to be considered one of the Top 50 players of all-time, which would put him in the Top 10 of PF's already. So really, Tyson Chandler had very little (if not nothing) to do with Nowtizki being one of the best PF's. Infact, he outproduced him.
I spelled it out for you. I said the names of the PFs. Why are you talking about the top ten?

Dirk was not mentioned with the players I NAMED before 2011.





And I can't see what case McHale has over Nowitzki outside of peak play. His individual achievements were already better before the ring. I don't really see how he can be above him all-time before that time. Infact, what puts him over Bob Pettit and Elvin Hayes outside of his rings ?

Best to handle this question with players seen before we go back with other guys. McHale was a premier post up player, great defender and winner. So he gets his respect - he gets a nod here because Barkley - the most versatile scorer at the position said he was one of the best. Pettite and Hayes are a separate conversation because of other factors involved in assessing them. To keep it simple KG, Malone and Barkley were a separate category. Dirk joined them after 2011.

[NumberSix]

Could you imagine if Malone and Barkley played out their entire careers in this era and never won? With Malone playing his entire career with Jason Kidd and Barkley playing on at least a few loaded teams?

These morons would be saying;

Malone/Barkley can't touch McHale...etc.

What gets me the most...is that people think it's a knock on Dirk that he needed Chandler to win. Chandler was nothing before 11. No team in the league even wanted him. And it wasn't his contract because it was expiring...the league concluded he was a bum. A cast off player nobody wanted...and somehow Dirk needing a guy that can't average a double double to win is a knock on him?

Now, don't get me wrong, I actually like Chandler and thought he was great for us, but certainly nowhere near as good as most 2nd best guys on title winning teams.
Yeah. Imagine Dirk actually needing a what, top 30 current player? That's just unfair stacking. Lol. The guy is not even as good as Nikola Pekovic.

The same idiot you're arguing with probably thinks Rose was "carrying" the Bulls even though Noah is unquestionably better than Chandler.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah. Imagine Dirk actually needing a what, top 30 current player? That's just unfair stacking. Lol. The guy is not even as good as Nikola Pekovic.

The same idiot you're arguing with probably thinks Rose was "carrying" the Bulls even though Noah is unquestionably better than Chandler.

He doesn't get it. Somehow guys like Deng and Noah aren't good, but Chandler and Terry (two clearly worse players)...made it unfair that Dirk won.

I thought I had heard it all until the the combo of Chandler/Terry is leading to;

Dirk needed too much help to win.

[Black and White]

He doesn't get it. Somehow guys like Deng and Noah aren't good, but Chandler and Terry (two clearly worse players)...made it unfair that Dirk won.

I thought I had heard it all until the the combo of Chandler/Terry is leading to;

Dirk needed too much help to win.

Hes just fishing for excuses to try and back up his arguement. The notion that role players like terry and chandler are even comparable to some of the recent championship teams players (discounting the FMVP) is insane, i mean think:

Wade/Bosh
Wade/Bosh
Gasol
Gasol
Garnett/Allen
Duncan/Ginobili

Now tell me that Jason Terry and Chandler are on these players levels

[NumberSix]

He doesn't get it. Somehow guys like Deng and Noah aren't good, but Chandler and Terry (two clearly worse players)...made it unfair that Dirk won.

I thought I had heard it all until the the combo of Chandler/Terry is leading to;

Dirk needed too much help to win.
Is Dirk having the combo of Chandler/Terry any better than what Kevin Love has with Pekovic/Rubio?

I'd STRONGLY argue that Pekovic/Rubio is better. Kevin Martin and Corey Brewer are about as good as over-the-hill Kidd and Peja. JJ Barea and Jos

[TheMarkMadsen]

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Is Dirk having the combo of Chandler/Terry any better than what Kevin Love has with Pekovic/Rubio?

I'd STRONGLY argue that Pekovic/Rubio is better. Kevin Martin and Corey Brewer are about as good as over-the-hill Kidd and Peja. JJ Barea and Jos

[Pointguard]

Actually he was by anyone that watched them all play. I think even Kblaze had Dirk over Malone years ago...and he's not a big Dirk fan at all.

Keep thinking that though.

Also, the same could be said for any of them. Take Stockton away from Malone. KG doesn't go to Boston. Barkley never gets those Suns teams...etc.

They were all made. The difference? Tyson Chandler is easily the worst 2nd best guy out of any guys the above players played with.

I mean...are you listening to yourself right now? You are knocking Dirk for needing Chandler to win. Malone never won with Stockton and Sloan...and really good teams. Barkley never won with a loaded Suns team. KG needed an absurdly stacked team to win...

But yea...Dirk needing Chandler is a knock...GTFO

It wasn't a knock. It was an allusion to the teams defensive makeup. If you don't understand context you can't provide a counter argument. It was an defensive team and that's why they won. You advance this argument when you bring up Chicago ALL the time. Durant/Kobe/Wade/Westbrook and Lebron all play far below their standards and level of play. Dirk had nothing to do with that. Kobe, Lebron and Wade usually out produce Dirk. And all have several playoffs where they had superior outputs to Dirk's output in this playoff run. Was Chauncey Billups considered better than Kobe and Shaq? Should he called a better player than Kobe because he looked way better in that series. Heck no. Without Ben Wallace we see that Billups would have been helpless.

Kidd was the second best player to me on that team and Tyson isn't a clear third either but he had it so that Kidd and Marion had the best defensive stands ever in a playoff run. Better than Hakeems, better than Mutombo's, and better than Ben Wallace's run. Dirk can't claim that.

Dmavs, the Bulls defense didn't come close to stopping Lebron like that but you claim they win on defense. You can't have it both ways. The Bulls stopped Wade in the fourth quarter, only when they put Rose on him.

[tpols]

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Is Dirk having the combo of Chandler/Terry any better than what Kevin Love has with Pekovic/Rubio?

I'd STRONGLY argue that Pekovic/Rubio is better. Kevin Martin and Corey Brewer are about as good as over-the-hill Kidd and Peja. JJ Barea and Jos

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Chicago had the #1 ranked defense (they're routinely in the top 3) and Rose was held in check against Miami. Terrible argument.

[Pointguard]

Hes just fishing for excuses to try and back up his arguement. The notion that role players like terry and chandler are even comparable to some of the recent championship teams players (discounting the FMVP) is insane, i mean think:

Wade/Bosh
Wade/Bosh
Gasol
Gasol
Garnett/Allen
Duncan/Ginobili

Now tell me that Jason Terry and Chandler are on these players levels

Yeah. Imagine Dirk actually needing a what, top 30 current player? That's just unfair stacking. Lol. The guy is not even as good as Nikola Pekovic.

The same idiot you're arguing with probably thinks Rose was "carrying" the Bulls even though Noah is unquestionably better than Chandler.
:lol You are hopeless stupid clown, on a good day. Noah was hurt and was way off his game, D Rose's last healthy year and wasn't performing well the whole year. He got benched twice in ECF in the fourth quarter that year.

Chandler won DPOY the next year and was a best bigman defender that year in the playoffs for Dallas. The current Knicks would have a better record if he played and Mello missed the games instead. Chandler brings a ton of intangibles. But if you don't know, you don't know. Dirk had a ton of great things to say about his character and influence.

[Pointguard]

Chicago had the #1 ranked defense (they're routinely in the top 3) and Rose was held in check against Miami. Terrible argument.
Huh???

[Black and White]

:lol You are hopeless stupid clown, on a good day. Noah was hurt and was way off his game, D Rose's last healthy year and wasn't performing well the whole year. He got benched twice in ECF in the fourth quarter that year.

Chandler won DPOY the next year and was a best bigman defender that year in the playoffs for Dallas. The current Knicks would have a better record if he played and Mello missed the games instead. Chandler brings a ton of intangibles. But if you don't know, you don't know. Dirk had a ton of great things to say about his character and influence.

I am not denying that he was essential to the title run for Dirk, but im saying that the notion that you think Dirk had too much help is insane, look at the list i put in front of you, did he have any players on his team of that quality??

[DMAVS41]

It wasn't a knock. It was an allusion to the teams defensive makeup. If you don't understand context you can't provide a counter argument. It was an defensive team and that's why they won. You advance this argument when you bring up Chicago ALL the time. Durant/Kobe/Wade/Westbrook and Lebron all play far below their standards and level of play. Dirk had nothing to do with that. Kobe, Lebron and Wade usually out produce Dirk. And all have several playoffs where they had superior outputs to Dirk's output in this playoff run. Was Chauncey Billups considered better than Kobe and Shaq? Should he called a better player than Kobe because he looked way better in that series. Heck no. Without Ben Wallace we see that Billups would have been helpless.

Kidd was the second best player to me on that team and Tyson isn't a clear third either but he had it so that Kidd and Marion had the best defensive stands ever in a playoff run. Better than Hakeems, better than Mutombo's, and better than Ben Wallace's run. Dirk can't claim that.

Dmavs, the Bulls defense didn't come close to stopping Lebron like that but you claim they win on defense. You can't have it both ways. The Bulls stopped Wade in the fourth quarter, only when they put Rose on him.

We won because we played good defense and happened to have Dirk go nuts in close games. If you talk about which is more valuable...it was Dirk. And you continue to ignore what Dirk did to the defense...which was make it better by 3.6 points when he was on the floor.

What good is that defense without a guy giving you 28/8/3 on 61% TS and coming through in the clutch? You do realize that 16 of the Mavs 21 playoff games went into crunch time...right? We didn't blow anyone out consistently. Shit, the Lakers were ahead in 2 of the first 3 games with like 9 minutes left.

Context? How about you stop ignoring what Dirk did and what he did factually to the defense.

Like...is it just nothing to you that the Mavs fell apart without Dirk in the playoffs? Getting 13.2 points worse on offense in addition to slipping on defense?

The Mavs had something around a 106 defensive rating in the playoffs. That is good, but hardly this all time great defense or something...it was worse than the 09 Lakers defense for example.

But the offense...that was special. When Dirk was in the game the offense had a 115 rating. That is great

[NumberSix]

:lol You are hopeless stupid clown, on a good day. Noah was hurt and was way off his game, D Rose's last healthy year and wasn't performing well the whole year. He got benched twice in ECF in the fourth quarter that year.

Chandler won DPOY the next year and was a best bigman defender that year in the playoffs for Dallas. The current Knicks would have a better record if he played and Mello missed the games instead. Chandler brings a ton of intangibles. But if you don't know, you don't know. Dirk had a ton of great things to say about his character and influence.
Yeah, he's a good player. You seem to think that I'm arguing that he's an awful player. No, he's good. Just good. By no means some kind of star player that turned the Mavs into some kind of super team.

Case in point, nobody in the world picked Dallas to win the title in 2011. If they were so fcuking stacked, why was EVERYBODY picking them to LOSE in the first round to Portland?

[Pointguard]

I am not denying that he was essential to the title run for Dirk, but im saying that the notion that you think Dirk had too much help is insane, look at the list i put in front of you, did he have any players on his team of that quality??
Hey I didn't mean that post for you. Sorry about that.

While the second best player wasn't very distinct they had a lot of things every champion or runner up would wish for:

1. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at guard ever - greatly reducing roles of Kobe/Westbrook and Wade.

2. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at SF ever - greatly reducing roles of Lebron and Durant.

3. They had great 3point shooting for most of the playoffs (Kidd and Terry

4. Terry was as clutch as any number 2 player in recent memory and scored 20ppg in their wins and was very efficient in the final three games. To me it was better than most number two's in the last 10 years.

5. Their main player played bad in one game, and played bad in three quarters in another win, yet the team pulled out wins.

6. Dallas played their game (primarily Kidd)

7. Kidd, primarily controlled tempo perfectly and didn't turn the ball over.

8. Teams did not penetrate on them due to Chandler

9. Teams did not run on them (primarily Kidd)

Dirk would be at the top but it was a very much a great team effort.

Both SA and OKC beat Miami if these qualities, minus Dirk, existed.

[Black and White]

Hey I didn't mean that post for you. Sorry about that.

While the second best player wasn't very distinct they had a lot of things every champion or runner up would wish for:

1. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at guard ever - greatly reducing roles of Kobe/Westbrook and Wade.

2. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at SF ever - greatly reducing roles of Lebron and Durant.

3. They had great 3point shooting for most of the playoffs (Kidd and Terry

4. Terry was as clutch as any number 2 player in recent memory and scored 20ppg in their wins and was very efficient in the final three games. To me it was better than most number two's in the last 10 years.

5. Their main player played bad in one game, and played bad in three quarters in another win, yet the team pulled out wins.

6. Dallas played their game (primarily Kidd)

7. Kidd, primarily controlled tempo perfectly and didn't turn the ball over.

8. Teams did not penetrate on them due to Chandler

9. Teams did not run on them (primarily Kidd)

Dirk would be at the top but it was a very much a great team effort.

Both SA and OKC beat Miami if these qualities, minus Dirk, existed.

I agree with you that team ball will take you to more championships than a team with a superstar and some role players, all the players stepped up in that series and played their part, but Dirk was the one that lead from the front, it was his work ethic and play level that forced the team to elevate theirs to match it and they did.

[Pointguard]

Yeah, he's a good player. You seem to think that I'm arguing that he's an awful player. No, he's good. Just good. By no means some kind of star player that turned the Mavs into some kind of super team.

They weren't a super team before or after him. That's for sure.



Case in point, nobody in the world picked Dallas to win the title in 2011. If they were so fcuking stacked, why was EVERYBODY picking them to LOSE in the first round to Portland?

I have post here saying that Tyson was much better than they were giving him credit in Feb. of 2011. People might have expected Portland to win because they really thought Dirk would flop, he had somewhat of a different reputation before 2011.

[Black and White]

They weren't a super team before or after him. That's for sure.



I have post here saying that Tyson was much better than they were giving him credit in Feb. of 2011. People might have expected Portland to win because they really thought Dirk would flop, he had somewhat of a different reputation before 2011.

Before the chip alot of people still considered Dirk one of the best PFs of all time.

[NumberSix]

They weren't a super team before or after him. That's for sure.



I have post here saying that Tyson was much better than they were giving him credit in Feb. of 2011. People might have expected Portland to win because they really thought Dirk would flop, he had somewhat of a different reputation before 2011.
So what point is it exactly that you're trying to make. That Dirk isn't that good? Or, that Durant is better than Dirk ever was.

Don't dance around. Just a straight answer.

IMO, prime Dirk is clearly better than anything we have yet seen from Durant.

[Pointguard]

We won because we played good defense and happened to have Dirk go nuts in close games. If you talk about which is more valuable...it was Dirk. And you continue to ignore what Dirk did to the defense...which was make it better by 3.6 points when he was on the floor.

Defense and offense always go together. If Lebron, Wade, Westbrook, Durant have big games they lose. Its never one or the other. Dirk was mediocre defender his whole life, it didn't magically get better at 32. Stats sometimes lie.



What good is that defense without a guy giving you 28/8/3 on 61% TS and coming through in the clutch? You do realize that 16 of the Mavs 21 playoff games went into crunch time...right? We didn't blow anyone out consistently. Shit, the Lakers were ahead in 2 of the first 3 games with like 9 minutes left.

The closer the games the more important defense is. Its basic knowledge in the playoffs. But Dirk was lights out.


Context? How about you stop ignoring what Dirk did and what he did factually to the defense.
Dirk wasn't stopping anybody who wasn't stopping themselves.

[DMAVS41]

Hey I didn't mean that post for you. Sorry about that.

While the second best player wasn't very distinct they had a lot of things every champion or runner up would wish for:

1. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at guard ever - greatly reducing roles of Kobe/Westbrook and Wade.

2. The Mav's had the best defensive stand at SF ever - greatly reducing roles of Lebron and Durant.

3. They had great 3point shooting for most of the playoffs (Kidd and Terry

4. Terry was as clutch as any number 2 player in recent memory and scored 20ppg in their wins and was very efficient in the final three games. To me it was better than most number two's in the last 10 years.

5. Their main player played bad in one game, and played bad in three quarters in another win, yet the team pulled out wins.

6. Dallas played their game (primarily Kidd)

7. Kidd, primarily controlled tempo perfectly and didn't turn the ball over.

8. Teams did not penetrate on them due to Chandler

9. Teams did not run on them (primarily Kidd)

Dirk would be at the top but it was a very much a great team effort.

Both SA and OKC beat Miami if these qualities, minus Dirk, existed.


This is so Meh...

The production of the Mavs role players was at best average for a title winning team on both ends.

Shit...the 09 Lakers played better defense and had a 2nd option Gasol that destroys the value of Chandler and Terry. And had a guy like Ariza going nuts...etc.

The Celtics (KG stan moron) had a far more stacked team in 08 than the 11 Mavs...they just played much worse competition en route to that gift wrapped title for a loaded team playing in a shit conference.

I could do this for just about every year other than Duncan in 03.

[Pointguard]

So what point is it exactly that you're trying to make. That Dirk isn't that good? Or, that Durant is better than Dirk ever was.

Don't dance around. Just a straight answer.

IMO, prime Dirk is clearly better than anything we have yet seen from Durant.
I don't think its outrageous or very wrong to think as you do. I like all around players and already said I like Durant. I think Durant has been a top tier scorer for three years and I don't believe Dirk was there. I think Durant's very clutch too. I think he can hit from the same spots on the floor and already is as accurate of shooter as Dirk. And I think he's more skilled because he can dribble. I also think he's quicker.

But I won't lose it because you think otherwise.

[KG215]

T-Mac had more of a man's game than Durant though. Kobe DEFINITELY had more of a man's game than Durant.

Maybe you can say it doesn't matter, but to me it does matter that he is so frail and officiated with marshmallow padded kid-gloves.

IMO, its a fair criticism. I get sick of seeing him trying to handle the ball while fumbling around like a newborn giraffe and hearing the refs whistle to send him to the free throw line for dribbling the ball off of his own foot.
Last five games: 31.4 PPG and 7.0 FTA/game. The freebies to the line have slowly started to regress to the mean, yet he's still scoring at a high clip.

I mean your argument/belief might be valid if Durant hasn't proved in both the regular season and playoffs he can score at a high volume on good efficiency. The year they made the Finals, Durant averaged 29 PPG on 52/37/86 shooting and 63% TS...on 7.7 FTA/game.

[veilside23]

i will just go with the context .. i laughed hard of what ive read on some of the pages... I would choose prime dirk ... it is scary though what prime durant can do ...

but if am building a team i would go with durant .

its just not fair to compare prime vs 80% prime of current player
specially when they say your so called prime is when you won the ring. rings are so valuable to some that the supporting casts gets to little credit ...

its funny that people say westbrook is a superstar when 2 years ago his finals performance was not even better than barea.. :facepalm

westbrook maybe showing he is back and maybe better now but lets not get outta hand and say its his team.. without westbrook that team is still playoff bound

without durant that team is lottery bound...

[Pointguard]

This is so Meh...

The production of the Mavs role players was at best average for a title winning team on both ends.

Shit...the 09 Lakers played better defense and had a 2nd option Gasol that destroys the value of Chandler and Terry. And had a guy like Ariza going nuts...etc.

The Celtics (KG stan moron) had a far more stacked team in 08 than the 11 Mavs...they just played much worse competition en route to that gift wrapped title for a loaded team playing in a shit conference.

I could do this for just about every year other than Duncan in 03.

:lol you just aren't bright enough to understand that it was a team doing things in unison. Gasol has never had a defensive stand near that of Chandler and will never win DPOY. Then you compared him to Terry??? Terry was the most proficient/productive scorer in the majority of the team's finals wins. Really now?

The Celtics were one of the best defensive teams ever, clown. And guess why? And defense is hard work, nothing giftwrapped. Giftwrapped is when you can't win a game the next year :D and all of a sudden the players that usually outscore Dirk start doing it again.

[DMAVS41]

:lol you just aren't bright enough to understand that it was a team doing things in unison. Gasol has never had a defensive stand near that of Chandler and will never win DPOY. Then you compared him to Terry??? Terry was the most proficient/productive scorer in the majority of the team's finals wins. Really now?

The Celtics were one of the best defensive teams ever, clown. And guess why? And defense is hard work, nothing giftwrapped. Giftwrapped is when you can't win a game the next year :D and all of a sudden the players that usually outscore Dirk start doing it again.

Wait...hold on...did you just claim that Terry was better than Gasol?

Celtics one of the best teams ever? Dude...they needed 7 to beat the Hawks and Cavs...rofl.

KG needed way more help than Dirk to win...and then only won once...while getting his shit kicked by Pau Gasol in 2010.

The Mavs role players in 11 worth worse than the average title winning team. Like...you have no idea what you are ****ing talking about.

The ****ing 2009 Lakers played better defense, quite considerably, than the 11 Mavs in the playoffs.

The defense of the 11 Mavs is getting absurdly over-rated. We had like a 106 defensive rating...LOL

The Bulls played great defense...not the Mavs. The mavs were like maybe the 10th best defense in the league? Somewhere around there...and didn't get any better in the playoffs...

Oh...and you do realize that Dirk made deep playoff runs in 03 and 06 without Chandler...and with shit centers...right?

But again...I'd never thought I'd see the day in which Chandler/Terry is too much help...I've now seen it all...until morons like you say something else



Oh...and stats lie? No...they actually don't. They are facts. You can make of them what you will...but it's just a fact that Dirk improved his teams defense in both the regular season and playoffs when he was on the floor. You call him a pathetic defender...the truth is that Dirk is a fine defender. He's just not great.

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Is Dirk having the combo of Chandler/Terry any better than what Kevin Love has with Pekovic/Rubio?

I'd STRONGLY argue that Pekovic/Rubio is better. Kevin Martin and Corey Brewer are about as good as over-the-hill Kidd and Peja. JJ Barea and Jos

[Pointguard]

Wait...hold on...did you just claim that Terry was better than Gasol?

If my star player is off, this isn't even a question.


Celtics one of the best teams ever? Dude...they needed 7 to beat the Hawks and Cavs...rofl.
Did you miss the word DEFENSIVE.


KG needed way more help than Dirk to win...and then only won once...while getting his shit kicked by Pau Gasol in 2010.
He wasn't 100% healthy. Hello? Anybody home? He wins two maybe three if healthy. You always act brand new. Why you talking about KG, tho.


The Mavs role players in 11 worth worse than the average title winning team. Like...you have no idea what you are ****ing talking about.

Sorry I just named nine main things that every contender would love to have. Keep up.


The ****ing 2009 Lakers played better defense, quite considerably, than the 11 Mavs in the playoffs.
They held four all time greats below their average. Stop lying. Keep up


The defense of the 11 Mavs is getting absurdly over-rated. We had like a 106 defensive rating...LOL
Had to have been Dirks man because it wasn't the better scoring guard or SF for sure. And it wasn't Tyson's man.


The Bulls played great defense...not the Mavs. The mavs were like maybe the 10th best defense in the league? Somewhere around there...and didn't get any better in the playoffs...
Yeap, the Bulls definitely played Lebron a lot better.


But again...I'd never thought I'd see the day in which Chandler/Terry is too much help...I've now seen it all...until morons like you say something else
Dmav's you so stupid it takes you 24 hours to watch 60 minutes.
Dmav's you so stupid you thought Taco Bell was a Mexican phone company.
Dmav's you so stupid you refused to go in a car pool because you thought you drown. :lol



Oh...and stats lie? No...they actually don't. They are facts. You can make of them what you will...but it's just a fact that Dirk improved his teams defense in both the regular season and playoffs when he was on the floor. You call him a pathetic defender...the truth is that Dirk is a fine defender. He's just not great.
Average defenders guard the best and worse at their position. Below average defenders don't.

[DMAVS41]

If my star player is off, this isn't even a question.

Did you miss the word DEFENSIVE.

He wasn't 100% healthy. Hello? Anybody home? He wins two maybe three if healthy. You always act brand new. Why you talking about KG, tho.

Sorry I just named nine main things that every contender would love to have. Keep up.

They held four all time greats below their average. Stop lying. Keep up

Had to have been Dirks man because it wasn't the better scoring guard or SF for sure. And it wasn't Tyson's man.

Yeap, the Bulls definitely played Lebron a lot better.

Dmav's you so stupid it takes you 24 hours to watch 60 minutes.
Dmav's you so stupid you thought Taco Bell was a Mexican phone company.
Dmav's you so stupid you refused to go in a car pool because you thought you drown. :lol


Average defenders guard the best and worse at their position. Below average defenders don't.

Wait...now Terry is better than Gasol.

Just for fun.

18/2/3 60% TS...and poor defense vs 20/11/4 60% TS and solid defense

Terry was factually one of the worst 2nd options on a title team of this era. Especially on your criteria of valuing individual defense so much...Terry is an awful defensive player.

What? I thought defense was important? Now Terry is better than Gasol? How? Gasol is a better overall offensive player and is a far better rebounder and defender.

You are a ****ing moron.

And no...the Mavs had a worse defensive rating with Dirk off the floor. His man wasn't scoring. It was actually more likely it was Chandler's...as Rick had to pull Chandler off Aldridge in round 1 as LA was raping him.

It's a simple fact that the 09 Lakers played as good or better defense. They factually played better defense by most measures, but it's hard to compare defensive metrics between years.

I don't care if it was "defensive"...it's the same thing. KG played on a way more stacked team and played inferior competition. Does that mean his title isn't worth anything? Try this was on...without two first ball hall of famers...KG doesn't have a ring....LOL

You gave 9 points? What? Your points are retarded...they literally didn't even happen. The other SF wasn't scoring? KD averaged 28/10/4 against the Mavs...rofl. And Wade went off against us in the finals...

I want you to take a look at what the Mavs were;

Terry 18/2/3
Kidd 9/5/7
Marion 12/6/2
Chandler 8/9/0
Barea 9/2/3
Peja 7/2/0
Stevenson 5/1/1
Haywood 3/4/0

And again. They played good, but hardly great defense. Had about a 106 defensive rating in the playoffs...just not special overall. That is just meh at best historically for title winning teams. There was a reason they were 20 to 1 underdogs and it wasn't because of "Dirk" like you said...

[Pointguard]

Wait...now Terry is better than Gasol.

Just for fun.

18/2/3 60% TS...and poor defense vs 20/11/4 60% TS and solid defense

What? I thought defense was important? Now Terry is better than Gasol? How? Gasol is a better overall offensive player and is a far better rebounder and defender.
When you play on a defensive team where guys can hold down all time greats on their own and you need clutch shooting because your clutch shooter is off isn't a question as to who is better. I'd take Terry everytime.


You are a ****ing moron.

And no...the Mavs had a worse defensive rating with Dirk off the floor. His man wasn't scoring. It was actually more likely it was Chandler's...as Rick had to pull Chandler off Aldridge in round 1 as LA was raping him.

:lol You're pathetic. But at least you are persistently consistent pathetic.


It's a simple fact that the 09 Lakers played as good or better defense. They factually played better defense by most measures, but it's hard to compare defensive metrics between years.

Than who bozo? Well here's the deal, in the playoffs if you stop the superstars the rest will fall in line.


I don't care if it was "defensive"...it's the same thing. KG played on a way more stacked team and played inferior competition. Does that mean his title isn't worth anything? Try this was on...without two first ball hall of famers...KG doesn't have a ring....LOL
Whoopde dam Dooo.


You gave 9 points? What? Your points are retarded...they literally didn't even happen. The other SF wasn't scoring? KD averaged 28/10/4 against the Mavs...rofl. And Wade went off against us in the finals...
hahaha, no not in 2006... Wade couldn't take over and KD scored a lot when games were out of reach and almost devoid when the games got close. So what else didn't happen?

[DMAVS41]

When you play on a defensive team where guys can hold down all time greats on their own and you need clutch shooting because your clutch shooter is off isn't a question as to who is better. I'd take Terry everytime.

:lol You're pathetic. But at least you are persistently consistent pathetic.

Than who bozo? Well here's the deal, in the playoffs if you stop the superstars the rest will fall in line.

Whoopde dam Dooo.

hahaha, no not in 2006... Wade couldn't take over and KD scored a lot when games were out of reach and almost devoid when the games got close. So what else didn't happen?

Stop dancing around. It's all you do...pathetic.

There is no argument for Terry being better than Gasol...none

The rest is more BS...take a look at the production above combined with good but not great defense...

seriously...let's look at the defenses that have won the title lately

Heat in 13 and 12 were better...
Lakers in 10 were worse
Lakers in 09 were better...
Celtics in 08 were better
Spurs in 07 were better
Heat in 06 were better
Spurs in 05 were better
Pistons in 04 were better
Spurs in 03 were better
Lakers in 02 were better
Lakers in 01 were better

Seriously...all of those teams had significantly better defensive metrics in the playoffs

Take the 06 Heat for example...playing in a year with joke rules defensively really. Held opponents in the playoffs to around 46% efg and had a 102 defensive rating. Mavs held teams to around 49% efg and had a 106 defensive rating. LOL...

The 09 Lakers held teams to around 47%efg and had around a 103 defensive rating.

We just weren't that good defensively. But we were special offensively with Dirk on the floor. I can't quite remember, but I think while Dirk was on the floor...the Mavs had the highest rated offense by any team to win the title of the era.

So LOL...we had arguably the best offense...and outside of the 10 Lakers...probably the worst defense...certainly a defense no better than any of the others.

Again...don't you hate facts?

[NumberSix]

Stop dancing around. It's all you do...pathetic.

There is no argument for Terry being better than Gasol...none

The rest is more BS...take a look at the production above combined with good but not great defense...
Wait........


WHAT??? :wtf:


Is this actually being discussed? :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Wait........


WHAT??? :wtf:


Is this actually being discussed? :roll:

Yes. He said 11 Terry was one of the best 2nd options...better than Gasol.

And what makes it even better...he claims individual defense is extremely important. Terry, is one of the worst perimeter defenders in the league...he's atrocious. He is a net negative...his teams always get noticeably better on defense when he's out of the game.

Yep...you heard it right. 11 Terry was better than 10 Gasol...rofl

[Legends66NBA7]

Tyson Chandler was the only starter missing. That definitely not a completely different roster. Starters are considered the core.

I spelled it out for you. I said the names of the PFs. Why are you talking about the top ten?

Dirk was not mentioned with the players I NAMED before 2011.

Stevenson was gone too. Lamar Odom experiment failed and probably was distraction for that team to overcome.


As for the PF thing, we just have different ways to look at it. I certainly don't think Nowtizki joined that class in 2011. Joined it much before and the 11 run helped it out further.

[davehos]

Who would you take?

I would take ... both. What do I win?

[tpols]

And again. They played good, but hardly great defense. Had about a 106 defensive rating in the playoffs...just not special overall. That is just meh at best historically for title winning teams. There was a reason they were 20 to 1 underdogs and it wasn't because of "Dirk" like you said...
Cmon man.. you know this isnt genuine. You're only looking at how their team defense played and not how individual matchups were affected.

Lebron's numbers got squashed because of great individual defense from Shawn Marion and partly Tyson. Kobe's numbers were squashed because of Kidd and Marion. Durant was locked down by Marion in crunchtime big time. As far as individual defensive matchups go, stars on the opposing teams were being locked down by Mavs defenders.

And the individual defensive battles that were won had a HUGE impact on the outcomes of the games. If you knock Bron off his game.. I dont care what your team defensive rating is at the end of it.. you're going to have a much higher chance of winning.

You can give credit for Dirk knocking Aldridge off his game in the first round I guess.. but Marion/Kidd deserve even more credit for knocking Kobe, Durant, and Lebron off their games because if they didnt do that, Dirk's offense would not have been enough.

[tpols]

Lebron 27/7 51FG --> 18/7 48FG
Durant 28/3 46FG --> 28/4 43FG
Kobe 25/5 45FG --> 23/2 46FG

And on top of all their offensive averages being worse, all three of these guys got shutdown in the clutch.. bad. Kobe was bricking potential gamewinners, Lebron was too scared to even shoot them, and KD could barely get his shot off. These guys were all knocked off their games when playing the mavs.. and that matters a ton when looking at their defense. It definitely was a huge reason they won.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Cmon man.. you know this isnt genuine. You're only looking at how their team defense played and not how individual matchups were affected.

Lebron's numbers got squashed because of great individual defense from Shawn Marion and partly Tyson. Kobe's numbers were squashed because of Kidd and Marion. Durant was locked down by Marion in crunchtime big time. As far as individual defensive matchups go, stars on the opposing teams were being locked down by Mavs defenders.

And the individual defensive battles that were won had a HUGE impact on the outcomes of the games. If you knock Bron off his game.. I dont care what your team defensive rating is at the end of it.. you're going to have a much higher chance of winning.

You can give credit for Dirk knocking Aldridge off his game in the first round I guess.. but Marion/Kidd deserve even more credit for knocking Kobe, Durant, and Lebron off their games because if they didnt do that, Dirk's offense would not have been enough.
:applause:

[DMAVS41]

Cmon man.. you know this isnt genuine. You're only looking at how their team defense played and not how individual matchups were affected.

Lebron's numbers got squashed because of great individual defense from Shawn Marion and partly Tyson. Kobe's numbers were squashed because of Kidd and Marion. Durant was locked down by Marion in crunchtime big time. As far as individual defensive matchups go, stars on the opposing teams were being locked down by Mavs defenders.

And the individual defensive battles that were won had a HUGE impact on the outcomes of the games. If you knock Bron off his game.. I dont care what your team defensive rating is at the end of it.. you're going to have a much higher chance of winning.

You can give credit for Dirk knocking Aldridge off his game in the first round I guess.. but Marion/Kidd deserve even more credit for knocking Kobe, Durant, and Lebron off their games because if they didnt do that, Dirk's offense would not have been enough.

Total strawman.

Of course Dirk's offense would not have been enough with no defense at all. Have you ever thought about the defense not being enough without Dirk's great offense?

One was special...and that was Dirk's offensive impact on the team (115 rating) which I'm pretty sure was the best by the first option on a team that won the title since 2011. And one was good, but not great. It was situationally great at times, but overall...it was one of the weaker defenses that won the title. You can blame that weaker defense on Dirk, and that is fine, but don't call it a great defense. It wasn't.

Almost every other team that won the title held teams to worse overall efficiency from the field and had better defensive metrics.

It absolutely is genuine and your post is attacking something that doesn't exist. Nobody is saying that Dirk wins without help...nobody is saying the team defense wasn't important or really good. It just wasn't actually great historically the way PG has said on here. Like I said above, for example, the Lakers in 09 simply played better defense overall than the Mavs did in 11.

Like the Lakers shutting down Howard in the finals. He averaged 15 ppg in the finals. Down from 21 in the regular season..and he was at like 23 ppg going into the finals on like 64% shooting...He shot 48% in the finals. Carmelo averaged like 27 on 41% fg and 25% 3. Before that in the playoffs he was doing like 27 on 48% fg and 48% 3...

The point is that you could do this with so many teams. Does Kobe get no credit? It's not like he did much to the defense...the defense actually got slightly better with him off the floor. Why does Dirk get no credit? Not only did the teams defense get better when he was on the floor, but the opposing pf's did nothing against us all playoffs...well, LA killed us until Rick made the switch. So he improves the defense, improves the defensive rebounding...and the opposing pf's did nothing. Sorry, you can't just pretend Dirk had no impact on the defense...he factually did.

Kobe's offense would not have been enough. I say that as a fact, but why would that be a knock on Kobe? His offense and play was still by far the most important thing for those Lakers teams...

Dirk needing a good, but not great defense and a good, but not great 2nd option is not a knock on him. Virtually every team of the era that has won the title played as good or better defense other than the 2010 Lakers...and every team had a clear cut better 2nd option than Terry other than the 03 Spurs.

Seriously...this was the help...right here;

Terry 18/2/3
Kidd 9/5/7
Marion 12/6/2
Chandler 8/9/0
Barea 9/2/3
Peja 7/2/0
Stevenson 5/1/1
Haywood 3/4/0

And pretending these guys formulated a defense like the 04 Pistons or some of the great Spurs defenses is simply false.


So I'm just trying to figure it all out. Knowing that you are a Kobe stan...lets look at this;

28/8/3 61% TS vs 30/5/6 56% TS

Statistically, Kobe had less of an impact on his teams defense...and the Lakers held opposing teams to lower overall efficiency and held a higher defensive rating in the playoffs than the 11 Mavs did.

Furthermore, the Lakers didn't have to play as many close games as the Mavs did.

Here is what they did in crunch time per 36 minutes;

Kobe - 34 points on 41/25/85 shooting splits 54.3% TS...6-4 record in those games

Dirk - 48 points on 54/60/97 shooting splits 77% TS...11-5 record in those games

Like...should we really ignore the bold and pretend it didn't happen?

[tpols]

It absolutely is genuine and your post is attacking something that doesn't exist. Nobody is saying that Dirk wins without help...nobody is saying the team defense wasn't important or really good. It just wasn't actually great historically the way PG has said on here. Like I said above, for example, the Lakers in 09 simply played better defense overall than the Mavs did in 11.

Like the Lakers shutting down Howard in the finals. He averaged 15 ppg in the finals. Down from 21 in the regular season..and he was at like 23 ppg going into the finals on like 64% shooting...He shot 48% in the finals. Carmelo averaged like 27 on 41% fg and 25% 3. Before that in the playoffs he was doing like 27 on 48% fg and 48% 3...

And pretending these guys formulated a defense like the 04 Pistons or some of the great Spurs defenses is simply false.

But it was to the bolded. Marion/Kidd/Chandler collectively shut down 3 superstars in a row with great individual defensive stands.

Dwight isnt Lebron offensively.. it's not even close. Melo isnt Durant or Kobe.. again not close. The Lakers didn't win because they were shutting down individual matchups on a consistent basis. They won because they had the best frontline and best player in every series they played. Those were their two strengths.

The Mavericks won because a) their individual defenders shut down the other teams superstar for three rounds in a row and b) Dirk going off in the clutch. Both were equally as important. Just like Kobe isnt winning without his frontline, Dirk isnt winning without his individual defenders having a all time great defensive stand.

The main difference here is that everyone acknowledges Kobe's help as being great.. you still dont acknowledge that how the Mavs players performed was great as well. You keep listing names and offensive stats and brush aside important things like lockdown defense as 'eh it was good'. Sorry man.. not true. It was instrumental and one of the most important things in the entire run.

Dont pull any more team defense stats when were talking about matchups.. and even worse, dont pull out the Dirk's on off impact on defense when he sat with Tyson on the bench for the majority of his on off minutes. Your use of stats is utterly useless sometimes.