Why is Moses Malone so underrated/overlooked?

[moe94]

Seems like he never gets talked about relative to his accomplishments and dominance. :coleman:

[fpliii]

"At the age of 14, I discovered the secret: 'pick the one thing you do best and work at it.' So while every other kid was trying to be the 'Next Iceman', I was hitting the boards. Because I figure, if you ain't got the ball, you can't shoot the ball." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0zSdN5ceXU)

[LAZERUSS]

From 78-79 thru 82-83 he was clearly the best player in the league. And he was the best center in the league for a couple of seasons after that.

"The Kareem Killer."

[HomieWeMajor]

Coke habit + stat padding

[Micku]

"At the age of 14, I discovered the secret: 'pick the one thing you do best and work at it.' So while every other kid was trying to be the 'Next Iceman', I was hitting the boards. Because I figure, if you ain't got the ball, you can't shoot the ball." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0zSdN5ceXU)

I find it funny how he intentionally miss on the commercial to get the rebound because ppl say he did the same thing in an actual game to stat pad his rebounds.

Great player tho. Always give out effort. Was label as one of the guys that can handle Kareem.

[LAZERUSS]

Moses just plain outworked everyone. To be so dominant, at 6-10, 240 lbs, without great size, strength, or pure athleticism was remarkable.

[pauk]

No idea, he was not so flashy i guess.... I rank him exactly behind Hakeem at #11.

[Knoe Itawl]

He's in my top 10.

[FKAri]

Because modern fans undervalue rebounding the most out of any other statistic.


"At the age of 14, I discovered the secret: 'pick the one thing you do best and work at it.' So while every other kid was trying to be the 'Next Iceman', I was hitting the boards. Because I figure, if you ain't got the ball, you can't shoot the ball." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0zSdN5ceXU)

You can apply to that every field in life if you want to achieve greatness.

[Xiao Yao You]

Not known as a great shot blocking defensive stopper is one reason he's underrated I imagine.

[La Frescobaldi]

No idea, he was not so flashy i guess.... I rank him exactly behind Hakeem at #11.
why do you have Olajuwon ahead of Moses Malone? I don't see it, at all really

[moe94]

why do you have Olajuwon ahead of Moses Malone? I don't see it, at all really
:biggums:

[Legends66NBA7]

Seems like he never gets talked about relative to his accomplishments and dominance. :coleman:

1) He played for a lot of teams.

2) Not much playoff dominance outside of 81 and 83.

3) Lot of people just don't care for him online or in the real.

[La Frescobaldi]

:biggums:
Did you watch him play?
Moses Malone was a THREE TIME Most Valuable Player in the NBA.

He totally dominated everyone in his days, flat out.

[KevinNYC]

I find it funny how he intentionally miss on the commercial to get the rebound because ppl say he did the same thing in an actual game to stat pad his rebounds.

I'm guessing you never saw him play.

He was not a stat padder. He was a quick leaper, but never a great leaper and often was playing against guys who were bigger than him. His greatest athletic gift....which the commercial shows was honed by hard work....was his second and third leap. He could get back in the air pretty much quicker than any other center. So he sacrificed his field goal percentage, because he knew he was was likely to get the second shot and the third shot. He was relentless on the offensive boards, but it was all about getting the ball to go in the hole.

Centers would wear down against him because they would be banging and leaping all night. And they couldn't match his effort, it was over.

Red Auerbach said that offensive rebounding is the hardest skill in the game and Moses was the best offensive rebounder of all time.

[moe94]

Did you watch him play?
Moses Malone was a THREE TIME Most Valuable Player in the NBA.

He totally dominated everyone in his days, flat out.

Is that what we're doing? Point to the season where he won DPoTY and MVP in the same season, averaged over 3 blocks for a career, and nearly 3 steals one year as a god damn C and then maybe we can talk dominance.

[La Frescobaldi]

Is that what we're doing? Point to the season where he won DPoTY and MVP in the same season, averaged over 3 blocks for a career, and nearly 3 steals one year as a god damn C and then maybe we can talk dominance.
No, it isn't what we're doing. I could point to Malone leading the league in rebounding 5 years in a row, or that enormous streak of never fouling out - longer than Chamberlain's - or his mastery of the hardest skill of all, etc. etc. What I'm showing is that for about 6 years, until Malone's ankles began to give out, he overwhelmed the league in a way that I have seen from only Jabbar, O'Neal, and Chamberlain.
Hakeem was greatness itself without question but Malone on the Rockets in the '70s was at that same high level, and he sustained his peak for a much longer stretch. Hakeem certainly was a defensive genius, but he never really stood at the top of the league for such a long time in the way Bird or Jordan did, the way Magic did.... the way Moses did.
I suppose we could say they fill out the top 5 of the centers I've seen (Russell was old when I saw him, consistently outplayed by Chamberlain & Reed, so I leave him out) and let it go at that.
Very small circle, and they are both in it; if I had to go to just top 4, Moses would get the nod.

[iamgine]

From what I heard, Moses was just plain boring. What would Tim Duncan be if he was a center and only has one championship ring? Moses Malone.

[Marchesk]

Majority of fans haven't seen him play combined with Bird and Magic having the spotlight at the start of the 80s. Also, if you mention great 76er players from the past, people will think Iverson, Barkley and Dr J before they think of Malone.

[Shep]

probably because he was a team cancer who played no defense.


From 78-79 thru 82-83 he was clearly the best player in the league. And he was the best center in the league for a couple of seasons after that.

"The Kareem Killer."
:roll: Malone was only the best player in '83, and he was never again the best center in the league.

[Xiao Yao You]

Majority of fans haven't seen him play combined with Bird and Magic having the spotlight at the start of the 80s. Also, if you mention great 76er players from the past, people will think Iverson, Barkley and Dr J before they think of Malone.

They might but it was Malone that brought them a championship.

[Owl]

From 78-79 thru 82-83 he was clearly the best player in the league. And he was the best center in the league for a couple of seasons after that.

"The Kareem Killer."
Hardly clearly.
Over that five year spell Malone has PER of 25, Jabbar of 24.7. Malone posts .209 WS/48, Jabbar .216. Malone does have an advantage in absolute Win Shares 70.2 to 65.1 by virtue of playing many minutes (too many?). Metrics don't capture D that well. Jabbar makes two all-D first teams and one 2nd team, Moses one first and one 2nd and Jabbar has the superior defensive reputation.

Malone has a clear cut advantage in '82 and in '83, when he is at his apex and Jabbar is declining.

Anyway Malone is somewhat more low profile when the greats are discussed like Pettit and, increasingly, Oscar Robertson. But most rankings have them in the right ballpark (though O's rep has slid substantially in popular/fan rankings).

[chocolatethunder]

Seems like he never gets talked about relative to his accomplishments and dominance. :coleman:
Because everyone here is 14 years old and there are only a few guys who actually saw him play. Dude was a beast.

[Stringer Bell]

Good topic, and I've wondered the same thing myself.

For a Hall of Famer who was a 3 time MVP (including back-to-back), Finals MVP, led the NBA in rebounding 6 times, was top 5 in scoring 5 times, 5th all-time in rebounds, 7th all-time in scoring....he sure doesn't get mentioned much.

[Alan Ogg]

There are a lot of great players in NBA history. I think most people rank Moses in the 11-15 range with guys like Oscar and West. How is that underrated?

[dankok8]

From 78-79 thru 82-83 he was clearly the best player in the league. And he was the best center in the league for a couple of seasons after that.

"The Kareem Killer."

You give H2H match-ups too much weight. In 78-79 and 79-80 Kareem was still better than Moses. In 80-81 it was pretty even and in their playoff match-up it was a wash between them. LA lost a 3-game miniseries because Magic was injured and he was clashing with Nixon not because Moses killed Kareem.

In 81-82 and 82-83 Moses was the best. No argument there.

As time goes on Moses does get mo' mo' mo' underrated. Dude had a monster peak.

[Round Mound]

[B]Zero Flash...All Business :confusedshrug:

Also...The Tecnique Involving Offensive Rebounding Is The Most Difficult Skill To Develop But Also The Least Appreciated. If There Aren

[Lebron23]

His game is not flashy.

[LAZERUSS]

You give H2H match-ups too much weight. In 78-79 and 79-80 Kareem was still better than Moses. In 80-81 it was pretty even and in their playoff match-up it was a wash between them. LA lost a 3-game miniseries because Magic was injured and he was clashing with Nixon not because Moses killed Kareem.

In 81-82 and 82-83 Moses was the best. No argument there.

As time goes on Moses does get mo' mo' mo' underrated. Dude had a monster peak.

Moses SLAUGHTERED Kareem. He crushed him in scoring and rebounding. And in the known H2H's throughout their careers, KAJ didn't outshoot him by a large margin from the floor, either. And even that was offset by the fact that Moses just pounded Kareem from the LINE, by huge margins.

Moses outscored KAJ in 25 of their 40 H2H's, and many by massive margins. He also easily had the highest scoring games in their H2H's. And then how about rebounding? Moses just annihilated KAJ on the glass. I suspect that it was not only in about 80% of their H2H's, but by margins of 10+.

And even with a putrid roster, he badly outplayed KAJ in the '81 playoffs (BTW, Kareem had yet another post-season series where he failed to even shoot the league average in FG%... .462.) Then, with an equal roster in '83 (granted, Worthy missed that series), and with Moses just destroying Kareem in every game... a 4-0 sweep.

It's just too bad that Moses only had quality teammates for a very short time in his career, because he proved that with good ones, he could lead a team to a title.

Sorry, but he was the true "Kareem Killer."

[Dr.J4ever]

Moses SLAUGHTERED Kareem. He crushed him in scoring and rebounding. And in the known H2H's throughout their careers, KAJ didn't outshoot him by a large margin from the floor, either. And even that was offset by the fact that Moses just pounded Kareem from the LINE, by huge margins.

Moses outscored KAJ in 25 of their 40 H2H's, and many by massive margins. He also easily had the highest scoring games in their H2H's. And then how about rebounding? Moses just annihilated KAJ on the glass. I suspect that it was not only in about 80% of their H2H's, but by margins of 10+.

And even with a putrid roster, he badly outplayed KAJ in the '81 playoffs (BTW, Kareem had yet another post-season series where he failed to even shoot the league average in FG%... .462.) Then, with an equal roster in '83 (granted, Worthy missed that series), and with Moses just destroying Kareem in every game... a 4-0 sweep.

It's just too bad that Moses only had quality teammates for a very short time in his career, because he proved that with good ones, he could lead a team to a title.

Sorry, but he was the true "Kareem Killer."
This is absolutely true.

[Deuce Bigalow]

From 78-79 thru 82-83 he was clearly the best player in the league. And he was the best center in the league for a couple of seasons after that.

"The Kareem Killer."
You know that Kareem best player in 79-80.

[BoutPractice]

Also doesn't help that he's called Malone, and younger fans all know Karl because of MJ so Moses has become "the other Malone" even though he was better.

[LAZERUSS]

You know that Kareem best player in 79-80.

Kareem was the MVP in 79-80...NOT the best player. Hell, Moses clubbed him in their two H2H's that season, as well.

But, using your logic, AI > Shaq, and Nash was obviously the better player than Kobe in his MVP years.

Moses was the most feared player in the league from 78-79 thru 82-83. And he was just cleaning KAJ's clock in their H2H's in those years.

[The JKidd Kid]

>>>>>>Kobe

[Stringer Bell]

Here's the stats for Moses & Kareem H2H on basketball reference. No rebound, assists, blocks, steals, etc...until 1982-83 season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=malonmo01&p2=abdulka01

[Marchesk]

Moses did have a 31/15/52% season. That's a pretty good peak season.

[K Xerxes]

Moses SLAUGHTERED Kareem. He crushed him in scoring and rebounding. And in the known H2H's throughout their careers, KAJ didn't outshoot him by a large margin from the floor, either. And even that was offset by the fact that Moses just pounded Kareem from the LINE, by huge margins.

Moses outscored KAJ in 25 of their 40 H2H's, and many by massive margins. He also easily had the highest scoring games in their H2H's. And then how about rebounding? Moses just annihilated KAJ on the glass. I suspect that it was not only in about 80% of their H2H's, but by margins of 10+.

And even with a putrid roster, he badly outplayed KAJ in the '81 playoffs (BTW, Kareem had yet another post-season series where he failed to even shoot the league average in FG%... .462.) Then, with an equal roster in '83 (granted, Worthy missed that series), and with Moses just destroying Kareem in every game... a 4-0 sweep.

It's just too bad that Moses only had quality teammates for a very short time in his career, because he proved that with good ones, he could lead a team to a title.

Sorry, but he was the true "Kareem Killer."

You're such a shit poster.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=anthoca01&p2=duranke01

Carmelo is the true 'Durant Killer', thus he is a better player. GTFO with your terrible logic -- the better player isn't always dictated by who outplays who in a matchup.

[dankok8]

Moses SLAUGHTERED Kareem. He crushed him in scoring and rebounding. And in the known H2H's throughout their careers, KAJ didn't outshoot him by a large margin from the floor, either. And even that was offset by the fact that Moses just pounded Kareem from the LINE, by huge margins.

Moses outscored KAJ in 25 of their 40 H2H's, and many by massive margins. He also easily had the highest scoring games in their H2H's. And then how about rebounding? Moses just annihilated KAJ on the glass. I suspect that it was not only in about 80% of their H2H's, but by margins of 10+.

And even with a putrid roster, he badly outplayed KAJ in the '81 playoffs (BTW, Kareem had yet another post-season series where he failed to even shoot the league average in FG%... .462.) Then, with an equal roster in '83 (granted, Worthy missed that series), and with Moses just destroying Kareem in every game... a 4-0 sweep.

It's just too bad that Moses only had quality teammates for a very short time in his career, because he proved that with good ones, he could lead a team to a title.

Sorry, but he was the true "Kareem Killer."

Sorry but a lot of wrong in this post.

In the 79-80 season Kareem played Moses in 2 games. In one game Jabbar was EJECTED in the 4th quarter and in the other he played JUST 16 MIN from the 3rd quarter onwards (he was gonna miss the game due to migraines...) and ended up 15/6 on 86% shooting and just dominated down the stretch. DON'T GET CAUGHT UP IN THE BOXSCORE STATS!

FYI from 76-77 to 79-80 Kareem shot 61.0%, 54.6%, 60.9%, and 66.7% in his season match-ups against Moses, respectively, well over 60% overall for those counting at home. Apart from getting beat on the glass Kareem mostly got the better of Moses in all other aspects of the game. And of course he was a more complete player who did better against other opponents. It's not all H2H you know... Kareem was the more efficient scorer, way better passer in any situation, and a much better defender and shot-blocker.

In the 80-81 season Moses has an edge in the boxscores but again Kareem left one game in the 2nd quarter with a cornea injury. His 10 points and 4 boards hurts his averages.

In the playoffs in '81, it was pretty much a wash between Kareem and Moses.


81 Playoffs

Game 1

Kareem: 21/15/7 (9/19, 3/6)
Moses: 38/23 (15/?, 8/10)

Rockets win 111-107. Malone had 15 points and 17 rebounds in the second half and 11 offensive rebounds in the game. Most of his points came against Chones but Jabbar was unable to stop Moses from owning the glass.

Game 2

Kareem: 27/17/1 (10/22, 7/10)
Moses: 33/15 (15/?, 3/8)

Lakers win 111-107. Kareem did a great job on the boards and anchoring the defense and Magic put in a valiant effort with 15/18/8. Earvin got LA a 30-8 lead in the first quarter and Houston never recovered.

Game 3

Kareem: 32/18/4 (11/24, 10/12)
Moses: 23/15 (8/?, 7/7)

Rockets win 89-86. Magic scored 10 points on 2-14 shooting but missed 2 free throws late and airballed a game-tying 3pt shot at the buzzer. Kareem missed some very makeable hook shots while defended by Paultz but still outplayed Moses. Lakers lose for the second time in the series on their own floor.

Cumulative Stats

Kareem: 26.7 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 4.0 apg on 46.2 %FG/71.4 %FT/51.7 %TS
Moses: 31.3 ppg, 17.7 rpg on 72.0 %FT

Moses wins Game 1, draw in Game 2, and Kareem wins Game 3.



From 81-82 onwards including the '83 Finals Moses got the better of Kareem.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Because he wasn't out-spoken, couldn't even understand his mumbling. He wasn't anywhere near flashy. He played in an era with many superstars, also didn't have the teammates to win, at first. Also because after 1983 it was like he didn't give a **** no more, got his ring, got his MVP's, got paid.. Still a pretty good player but considering what he was, considerable drop-off.

I got him at like #12 on my all-time list. In his prime he was terrific, one of the GOAT rebounders, all-out hustle, physical as hell, good at the foul line, could hit the mid-range J, great inside, great scorer, decent ball-handler, played defense. His peak is one of the greatest ever for a center.
Could really be a black-hole though, and again, he suddenly drop-off at 28 years old, his prime should've lasted longer, easily.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Sorry but a lot of wrong in this post.

In the 79-80 season Kareem played Moses in 2 games. In one game Jabbar was EJECTED in the 4th quarter and in the other he played JUST 16 MIN from the 3rd quarter onwards (he was gonna miss the game due to migraines...) and ended up 15/6 on 86% shooting and just dominated down the stretch. DON'T GET CAUGHT UP IN THE BOXSCORE STATS!

FYI from 76-77 to 79-80 Kareem shot 61.0%, 54.6%, 60.9%, and 66.7% in his season match-ups against Moses, respectively, well over 60% overall for those counting at home. Apart from getting beat on the glass Kareem mostly got the better of Moses in all other aspects of the game. And of course he was a more complete player who did better against other opponents. It's not all H2H you know... Kareem was the more efficient scorer, way better passer in any situation, and a much better defender and shot-blocker.

In the 80-81 season Moses has an edge in the boxscores but again Kareem left one game in the 2nd quarter with a cornea injury. His 10 points and 4 boards hurts his averages.

In the playoffs in '81, it was pretty much a wash between Kareem and Moses.



From 81-82 onwards including the '83 Finals Moses got the better of Kareem.

Don't mind him. He's a major Kareem (and Bird) hater and will do anything to prop-up Wilt and Magic, especially Wilt.
Just ignore his long-ass (and repeated), bullshit essays.

[La Frescobaldi]

Also doesn't help that he's called Malone, and younger fans all know Karl because of MJ so Moses has become "the other Malone" even though he was better.
so if MJ had not come along nobody would have ever heard of The Mailman?

[Pointguard]

Somethings are never shaken off. The image Malone had at that time, was challenging and perhaps, not a direction the NBA wanted. He came from the ABA. I believe he was a HS guy. He wasn't polished on or off the court, as his game was sloppy too. He had a work ethic that the NBA hadn't seen in awhile. He could go manu a manu with Kareem who was the MVP of the league for years and his hard hat approach vs. Kareem aloofness gave a different credence to the ABA. Sometimes the league doesn't want to highlight a player and Moses was it.

[La Frescobaldi]

Somethings are never shaken off. The image Malone had at that time, was challenging and perhaps, not a direction the NBA wanted. He came from the ABA. I believe he was a HS guy. He wasn't polished on or off the court, as his game was sloppy too. He had a work ethic that the NBA hadn't seen in awhile. He could go manu a manu with Kareem who was the MVP of the league for years and his hard hat approach vs. Kareem aloofness gave a different credence to the ABA. Sometimes the league doesn't want to highlight a player and Moses was it.

Exactly right and in fact A-Train Artis Gilmore even more so.
Dude got unfairly blackballed from the Hall for aeons

[jlip]

ShaqAttack did a thread about Malone's '82 season a while back. I'm going to try and find it.

Edit: Found it. There were some good conversations going on in this thread.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272312

[Pointguard]

ShaqAttack did a thread about Malone's '82 season a while back. I'm going to try and find it.

Edit: Found it. There were some good conversations going on in this thread.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272312
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272312
:cheers:

Jlip found it. Its the same link.

[LAZERUSS]

Sorry but a lot of wrong in this post.

In the 79-80 season Kareem played Moses in 2 games. In one game Jabbar was EJECTED in the 4th quarter and in the other he played JUST 16 MIN from the 3rd quarter onwards (he was gonna miss the game due to migraines...) and ended up 15/6 on 86% shooting and just dominated down the stretch. DON'T GET CAUGHT UP IN THE BOXSCORE STATS!

FYI from 76-77 to 79-80 Kareem shot 61.0%, 54.6%, 60.9%, and 66.7% in his season match-ups against Moses, respectively, well over 60% overall for those counting at home. Apart from getting beat on the glass Kareem mostly got the better of Moses in all other aspects of the game. And of course he was a more complete player who did better against other opponents. It's not all H2H you know... Kareem was the more efficient scorer, way better passer in any situation, and a much better defender and shot-blocker.

In the 80-81 season Moses has an edge in the boxscores but again Kareem left one game in the 2nd quarter with a cornea injury. His 10 points and 4 boards hurts his averages.

In the playoffs in '81, it was pretty much a wash between Kareem and Moses.



From 81-82 onwards including the '83 Finals Moses got the better of Kareem.

I won't take the time right now to look them up, but I believe Moses was outrebounding even a 70's KAJ by nearly TEN rpg (and certainly FIVE.) Over the course of the known H2H's we have, Moses held a 17-2 advantage, and in the two he was outrebounded, the margins were 2 and 3.

Later on I will pull all that info, but again, over the course of the entire 40 H2H games, I doubt KAJ outrebounded Moses in more than 5 games, and certainly no more than 10. And again, we have games in which Moses just plastered KAJ (including EVERY game in the '83 Finals...and a total margin in that series of over TEN per game.)

[LAZERUSS]

Here we go...all 41 H2H games between KAJ and Moses. Scoring and rebounding.

Regular Season

76-77

1. KAJ 18-16 Moses 4-9
2. KAJ 28-11 Moses 17-8
3. KAJ 29-11 Moses 19-19
4. KAJ 23-8 Moses 26-19

Season averages: KAJ 24.5 ppg and 11.5 rpg Moses 16.5 ppg and 13.8 rpg

77-78

5. KAJ 32-7 Moses 20-16
6. KAJ 19-9 Moses 21-19
7. KAJ 22-7 Moses 29-18

Season: KAJ 27.7 ppg and 7.7 rpg. Moses 23.3 ppg and 17.7 rpg


78-79

8. KAJ 28-11 Moses 32-21
9. KAJ 30-9 Moses 27-23
10. KAJ 34-14 Moses 34-25

Season: KAJ 30.7 ppg and 11.3 rpg. Moses 31.0 ppg and 23.0 rpg


79-80

11. KAJ 24-15 Moses 32-19
12. KAJ 15-6 Moses 29-17

Season: KAJ 19.5 ppg and 10.5 rpg. Moses 30.5 ppg and 18.0 rpg


80-81

13. KAJ 10-4 Moses 26-17
14. KAJ 18-10 Moses 17-13
15. KAJ 22-9 Moses 28-14
16. KAJ 30-12 Moses 29-18
17. KAJ 36-12 Moses 34-21

Season: KAJ 23.2 ppg and 8.0 rpg. Moses 26.8 ppg and 18.6 rpg


81-82

18. KAJ 33-10 Moses 36-10
19. KAJ 21-9 Moses 37-22
20. KAJ 23-3 Moses 23-9
21. KAJ 12-6 Moses 39-17
22. KAJ 20-3 Moses 37-21

Season: KAJ 21.8 ppg and 6.2 rpg. Moses 34.4 ppg and 15.8 rpg.

Here was an example of what a PEAK Moses could do to anyone in the league. Aside from Wilt's 65-66 and 66-67 seasons, and probably Shaq's 99-00 season, this may have been the greatest season ever by a center.


82-83

23. KAJ 15-3 Moses 29-14

Season: KAJ 15.0 ppg and 3.0 rpg Moses 29.0 ppg and 14.0 rpg

If you look at what Moses did to KAJ in their 80-81 playoff H2H's, then their entire 81-82 and 82-83 seasonal H2H's, and then their 82-83 Finals H2H's...and Moses just OVERWHELMED Kareem in those H2H's. Absolute domination.


83-84

24. KAJ 12-5 Moses 18-11
25. KAJ 29-6 Moses 22-11

Season: KAJ 20.5 ppg and 5.5 rpg. Moses 20.0 ppg and 11.0 rpg


84-85

26. KAJ 24-8 Moses 35-13
27. KAJ 23-9 Moses 16-14

Season: KAJ 23.5 ppg and 8.5 rpg. Moses 25.5 ppg and 13.5 rpg


85-86

28. KAJ 13-4 Moses 14-9
29. KAJ 28-5 Moses 27-12

Season: KAJ 20.5 ppg and 4.5 rpg. Moses 20.5 ppg and 10.5 rpg


86-87

30. KAJ 15-6 Moses 21-10
31. KAJ 17-6 Moses 27-19

Season: KAJ 16.0 ppg and 6.0 rpg. Moses 24.0 ppg and 14.5 rpg

87-88

32. KAJ 25-6 Moses 26-9

Season: KAJ 25.0 ppg and 6.0 rpg. Moses 26.0 ppg and 9.0 rpg


88-89

33. KAJ 16-4 Moses 16-16
34. KAJ 4-6 Moses 14-11

Season: KAJ 10.0 ppg and 5.0 rpg. Moses 15.0 ppg and 13.5 rpg


Playoffs

80-81

1. KAJ 21-15 Moses 38-23
2. KAJ 27-17 Moses 33-15
3. KAJ 32-18 Moses 23-15

Series: KAJ 26.7 ppg and 16.7 rpg. Moses 31.3 ppg and 17.3 rpg


82-83

1. KAJ 20-4 Moses 27-18
2. KAJ 23-4 Moses 24-12
3. KAJ 23-15 Moses 28-19
4. KAJ 28-7 Moses 24-23

Series: KAJ 23.5 ppg and 7.5 rpg. Moses 25.8 ppg and 18.0 rpg


Overall

Moses outscored KAJ by a 26-12-3 margin in their 41 career H2H's, and by an average of 25.8 ppg to 22.5 ppg.
Moses outrebounded KAJ by a 36-4-1 margin. And by ...get this... a 15.8 rpg to 8.4 rpg margin in those 41 H2H's.
And if you remove a young Malone's first year H2H's against a near prime KAJ, the margins would have been considerably more one-sided.

Moses was clearly the better scorer, and just humilated KAJ on the glass. He was putting up more 30+ point games, higher scoring games, and then he just pounded KAJ on the glass (and after their first two H2H's, it was by a 36-2-1 margin.)

Moses "the Kareem Killer" Malone.

[dankok8]

Here we go...all 41 H2H games between KAJ and Moses. Scoring and rebounding.

Regular Season

76-77

1. KAJ 18-16 Moses 4-9
2. KAJ 28-11 Moses 17-8
3. KAJ 29-11 Moses 19-19
4. KAJ 23-8 Moses 26-19

Season averages: KAJ 24.5 ppg and 11.5 rpg Moses 16.5 ppg and 13.8 rpg

77-78

5. KAJ 32-7 Moses 20-16
6. KAJ 19-9 Moses 21-19
7. KAJ 22-7 Moses 29-18

Season: KAJ 27.7 ppg and 7.7 rpg. Moses 23.3 ppg and 17.7 rpg


78-79

8. KAJ 28-11 Moses 32-21
9. KAJ 30-9 Moses 27-23
10. KAJ 34-14 Moses 34-25

Season: KAJ 30.7 ppg and 11.3 rpg. Moses 31.0 ppg and 23.0 rpg


79-80

11. KAJ 24-15 Moses 32-19
12. KAJ 15-6 Moses 29-17

Season: KAJ 19.5 ppg and 10.5 rpg. Moses 30.5 ppg and 18.0 rpg


80-81

13. KAJ 10-4 Moses 26-17
14. KAJ 18-10 Moses 17-13
15. KAJ 22-9 Moses 28-14
16. KAJ 30-12 Moses 29-18
17. KAJ 36-12 Moses 34-21

Season: KAJ 23.2 ppg and 8.0 rpg. Moses 26.8 ppg and 18.6 rpg


81-82

18. KAJ 33-10 Moses 36-10
19. KAJ 21-9 Moses 37-22
20. KAJ 23-3 Moses 23-9
21. KAJ 12-6 Moses 39-17
22. KAJ 20-3 Moses 37-21

Season: KAJ 21.8 ppg and 6.2 rpg. Moses 34.4 ppg and 15.8 rpg.

Here was an example of what a PEAK Moses could do to anyone in the league. Aside from Wilt's 65-66 and 66-67 seasons, and probably Shaq's 99-00 season, this may have been the greatest season ever by a center.


82-83

23. KAJ 15-3 Moses 29-14

Season: KAJ 15.0 ppg and 3.0 rpg Moses 29.0 ppg and 14.0 rpg

If you look at what Moses did to KAJ in their 80-81 playoff H2H's, then their entire 81-82 and 82-83 seasonal H2H's, and then their 82-83 Finals H2H's...and Moses just OVERWHELMED Kareem in those H2H's. Absolute domination.


83-84

24. KAJ 12-5 Moses 18-11
25. KAJ 29-6 Moses 22-11

Season: KAJ 20.5 ppg and 5.5 rpg. Moses 20.0 ppg and 11.0 rpg


84-85

26. KAJ 24-8 Moses 35-13
27. KAJ 23-9 Moses 16-14

Season: KAJ 23.5 ppg and 8.5 rpg. Moses 25.5 ppg and 13.5 rpg


85-86

28. KAJ 13-4 Moses 14-9
29. KAJ 28-5 Moses 27-12

Season: KAJ 20.5 ppg and 4.5 rpg. Moses 20.5 ppg and 10.5 rpg


86-87

30. KAJ 15-6 Moses 21-10
31. KAJ 17-6 Moses 27-19

Season: KAJ 16.0 ppg and 6.0 rpg. Moses 24.0 ppg and 14.5 rpg

87-88

32. KAJ 25-6 Moses 26-9

Season: KAJ 25.0 ppg and 6.0 rpg. Moses 26.0 ppg and 9.0 rpg


88-89

33. KAJ 16-4 Moses 16-16
34. KAJ 4-6 Moses 14-11

Season: KAJ 10.0 ppg and 5.0 rpg. Moses 15.0 ppg and 13.5 rpg


Playoffs

80-81

1. KAJ 21-15 Moses 38-23
2. KAJ 27-17 Moses 33-15
3. KAJ 32-18 Moses 23-15

Series: KAJ 26.7 ppg and 16.7 rpg. Moses 31.3 ppg and 17.3 rpg


82-83

1. KAJ 20-4 Moses 27-18
2. KAJ 23-4 Moses 24-12
3. KAJ 23-15 Moses 28-19
4. KAJ 28-7 Moses 24-23

Series: KAJ 23.5 ppg and 7.5 rpg. Moses 25.8 ppg and 18.0 rpg


Overall

Moses outscored KAJ by a 26-12-3 margin in their 41 career H2H's, and by an average of 25.8 ppg to 22.5 ppg.
Moses outrebounded KAJ by a 36-4-1 margin. And by ...get this... a 15.8 rpg to 8.4 rpg margin in those 41 H2H's.
And if you remove a young Malone's first year H2H's against a near prime KAJ, the margins would have been considerably more one-sided.

Moses was clearly the better scorer, and just humilated KAJ on the glass. He was putting up more 30+ point games, higher scoring games, and then he just pounded KAJ on the glass (and after their first two H2H's, it was by a 36-2-1 margin.)

Moses "the Kareem Killer" Malone.

Good post!

Most of Moses' domination over Kareem happened from the 81-82 season onwards. I acknowledged that as fact. Kareem was out of his prime at that point anyways and barely ever eclipsed 32 mpg in the regular season anyways while Moses was close to 40 mpg.

In the 78-79 season Kareem also averaged 6.7 apg in the 3 games. Why don't you mention that?

In the 79-80 season Kareem played Moses in 2 games. In one game Jabbar was EJECTED early in the 4th quarter (still had 24/15) and in the other he played JUST 19 MIN from the 3rd quarter onwards (he was gonna miss the game due to migraines...) and ended up with 15/6 on 86% shooting and just dominated down the stretch.

In the 80-81 season Moses has an edge in the boxscores but again Kareem left the first game of the season series in the 2nd quarter with a cornea injury. His 10 points and 4 boards hurts his averages. In the other 4 games in that season series it's definitely not a blowout either way.

In the '81 playoffs Moses won Game 1, Game 2 was a tie, and Kareem won Game 3. It's pretty much a wash there.

Until the 81-82 season Kareem held his own against Moses. Moses only became "The Kareem Killer" after that.

[LAZERUSS]

Good post!

Most of Moses' domination over Kareem happened from the 81-82 season onwards. I acknowledged that as fact. Kareem was out of his prime at that point anyways and barely ever eclipsed 32 mpg in the regular season anyways while Moses was close to 40 mpg.

In the 78-79 season Kareem also averaged 6.7 apg in the 3 games. Why don't you mention that?

In the 79-80 season Kareem played Moses in 2 games. In one game Jabbar was EJECTED early in the 4th quarter (still had 24/15) and in the other he played JUST 19 MIN from the 3rd quarter onwards (he was gonna miss the game due to migraines...) and ended up with 15/6 on 86% shooting and just dominated down the stretch.

In the 80-81 season Moses has an edge in the boxscores but again Kareem left the first game of the season series in the 2nd quarter with a cornea injury. His 10 points and 4 boards hurts his averages. In the other 4 games in that season series it's definitely not a blowout either way.

In the '81 playoffs Moses won Game 1, Game 2 was a tie, and Kareem won Game 3. It's pretty much a wash there.

Until the 81-82 season Kareem held his own against Moses. Moses only became "The Kareem Killer" after that.

I'm relatively sure that KAJ was more efficient from the field in the totality of these H2H's, but Moses made up for that edge by outscoring Kareem from the line by a huge margin. And when you combine scoring and rebounding, Moses pretty much was the more dominant player from 77-78 on. I mean you simply can't ignore rebounding margins of nearly 10 rpg in those seasons.

Having said all of that, I have long maintained that KAJ's PEAK was from 70-71 thru 71-72, and his prime from 69-70 thru 76-77. And, he was still a great (and highly efficient) offensive player until the late 80's. And as his 84-85 Finals, proved, as well as his H2H's with Hakeem...when motivated, he was capable of some serious domination, even into his late 30's.

I suspect that a peak KAJ would have more than held his own against a peak Moses. Still, Moses probably did more, with less, than just about any other GOAT center in NBA history. He was not exceptionally tall (6-10), not big (245-250 at his peak), nor athletic, nor even super strong. His greatest attribute was his relentless style of play. No one outworked Moses.

[TheBigVeto]

He's not flashy, that's why.

[dankok8]

I'm relatively sure that KAJ was more efficient from the field in the totality of these H2H's, but Moses made up for that edge by outscoring Kareem from the line by a huge margin. And when you combine scoring and rebounding, Moses pretty much was the more dominant player from 77-78 on. I mean you simply can't ignore rebounding margins of nearly 10 rpg in those seasons.

Having said all of that, I have long maintained that KAJ's PEAK was from 70-71 thru 71-72, and his prime from 69-70 thru 76-77. And, he was still a great (and highly efficient) offensive player until the late 80's. And as his 84-85 Finals, proved, as well as his H2H's with Hakeem...when motivated, he was capable of some serious domination, even into his late 30's.

I suspect that a peak KAJ would have more than held his own against a peak Moses. Still, Moses probably did more, with less, than just about any other GOAT center in NBA history. He was not exceptionally tall (6-10), not big (245-250 at his peak), nor athletic, nor even super strong. His greatest attribute was his relentless style of play. No one outworked Moses.

Excellent last paragraph and I agree with that assessment but...

You do realize that you're only using their H2H's to figure out who's better? That's about 5% of the total games the two played. What happened to the other 95%?

In particular who played better against the the best teams of the time in the playoffs. Celtics? Sonics? Sixers? Kareem by a mile...

Moses coming off of two MVP seasons in 78-79 and 81-82 had major playoff disappointments. In '79 his team got upset by the upstart Atlanta Hawks and he struggled against a frontcourt of Dan Roundfield and Tree Rollins. In '82 his team lost to the Sonics and according to newspapers Jack Sikma actually outplayed him. Even in '80 his team got swept by the Celtics in the 2nd round and he sucked in that series.

Every single postseason except '81 and '83 has been quite a disappointment for Malone. I have him in the pantheon (#12 all-time) and many underrate his dominance but some people on this thread go too far praising him. Especially when you start throwing statements that Malone > Kareem before 1981. He wasn't...

[LAZERUSS]

Excellent last paragraph and I agree with that assessment but...

You do realize that you're only using their H2H's to figure out who's better? That's about 5% of the total games the two played. What happened to the other 95%?

In particular who played better against the the best teams of the time in the playoffs. Celtics? Sonics? Sixers? Kareem by a mile...

Moses coming off of two MVP seasons in 78-79 and 81-82 had major playoff disappointments. In '79 his team got upset by the upstart Atlanta Hawks and he struggled against a frontcourt of Dan Roundfield and Tree Rollins. In '82 his team lost to the Sonics and according to newspapers Jack Sikma actually outplayed him. Even in '80 his team got swept by the Celtics in the 2nd round and he sucked in that series.

Every single postseason except '81 and '83 has been quite a disappointment for Malone. I have him in the pantheon (#12 all-time) and many underrate his dominance but some people on this thread go too far praising him. Especially when you start throwing statements that Malone > Kareem before 1981. He wasn't...

The problem is, though, KAJ had MAGIC, as well as Worthy, for a ton of years. KAJ was no more of a "winner" than Moses was, before Magic arrived. And we saw what Moses could do with players like Dr. J... a dominating world title, which included a carpet-bombing of Kareem. Had Moses had capable rosters for the majority of his career, like KAJ, had, I have no doubt he would have won at least a few more rings.

[bizil]

To be frank, I think its simply due to the rings. Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, and Moses are regarded as the GOAT six centers ever. Moses has three MVP's and at his peak he was an epic scorer and epic rebounder all in one. I think it could also be because he wasn't a great shot blocker like most of the other great centers. But if u are a student of the game, NO CENTER was more intense and physical than Moses Malone. Not even Shaq or Wilt. That's how I remember him!

[dankok8]

The problem is, though, KAJ had MAGIC, as well as Worthy, for a ton of years. KAJ was no more of a "winner" than Moses was, before Magic arrived. And we saw what Moses could do with players like Dr. J... a dominating world title, which included a carpet-bombing of Kareem. Had Moses had capable rosters for the majority of his career, like KAJ, had, I have no doubt he would have won at least a few more rings.

Kareem had a title + 5 MVP's before Magic ever set his foot on the NBA court.

During 79-80 and 80-81 Kareem was clearly better than Magic. From 81-82 to 85-86 it was a 1a/1b type of situation and Magic wasn't clearly better than Kareem until 86-87. Sometimes people pretend that when Magic came in Kareem was immediately beta. It didn't happen like that...

Also Kareem didn't play with a single all-star or all-NBA defender from 73-74 to 78-79. Nobody can win with that kind of cast and then his teams had inopportune injuries too. Lucious Allen DNP in '74 playoffs, Kermit Washington DNP in '77 and Lucious played hobbled.

Regarding Moses what stopped him from winning more titles after '83? That Philly team had Erving, Toney, Cheeks, young Barkley etc. Moses was just 25 when he was traded to Philly in '82. What is his excuse for not winning more in what should have been his absolute prime? He definitely had a powerful roster on his side.

[fpliii]

Lazeruss or anybody else who's seen a lot of Moses - Can you describe his offensive game? What sort of post moves did he have? How much of his scoring came from putbacks, transition, jumpers, pick-and-roll, etc.?

Apologies for my ignorance, but I know remarkably little about him compared to most of the other great big men.

[Pointguard]

Kareem had a title + 5 MVP's before Magic ever set his foot on the NBA court.

During 79-80 and 80-81 Kareem was clearly better than Magic. From 81-82 to 85-86 it was a 1a/1b type of situation and Magic wasn't clearly better than Kareem until 86-87. Sometimes people pretend that when Magic came in Kareem was immediately beta. It didn't happen like that...

Also Kareem didn't play with a single all-star or all-NBA defender from 73-74 to 78-79. Nobody can win with that kind of cast and then his teams had inopportune injuries too. Lucious Allen DNP in '74 playoffs, Kermit Washington DNP in '77 and Lucious played hobbled.

Regarding Moses what stopped him from winning more titles after '83? That Philly team had Erving, Toney, Cheeks, young Barkley etc. Moses was just 25 when he was traded to Philly in '82. What is his excuse for not winning more in what should have been his absolute prime? He definitely had a powerful roster on his side.

Kareem had more impressive stats than Magic the first couple of years but he wasn't better. Kareem rode the Magic ship - Kareem wasn't the leader, he wasn't the guide, he wasn't making the big decisions, he wasn't the reason why his teammates were charged up to win, he was on for the ride, the 80's ride on Magic's ship. Kareem had trouble making Kareem relevant. And you can't tell me Kareem knew how to do this himself before Magic. Magic was the ultimate compliment to the other four players on the court. Before Magic, Kareem rarely played in a complementary style in his 10 year career. Kareem even had motivational issues before Magic wiped that slate clean.

No way does Magic, even young Magic before '86 comes out of the '70's with less than four rings. The 70's were the up for grabs decade. The 80's the most competitive. Even with those 70's teams that were built around Kareem, Magic wouldn't get less than three rings. Kareem was the biggest product of a player making another player better there ever was. No way does a player go from the worst decade ever in his prime/peak and then come off of his best days into the best era ever, as a winner without a narrative. Without Magic, Kareem could definitely go down as one of the biggest underachievers ever. And if Magic played in the 70's he just might be bigger than he was in the 80's.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Kareem had a title + 5 MVP's before Magic ever set his foot on the NBA court.

During 79-80 and 80-81 Kareem was clearly better than Magic. From 81-82 to 85-86 it was a 1a/1b type of situation and Magic wasn't clearly better than Kareem until 86-87. Sometimes people pretend that when Magic came in Kareem was immediately beta. It didn't happen like that...

Also Kareem didn't play with a single all-star or all-NBA defender from 73-74 to 78-79. Nobody can win with that kind of cast and then his teams had inopportune injuries too. Lucious Allen DNP in '74 playoffs, Kermit Washington DNP in '77 and Lucious played hobbled.

Regarding Moses what stopped him from winning more titles after '83? That Philly team had Erving, Toney, Cheeks, young Barkley etc. Moses was just 25 when he was traded to Philly in '82. What is his excuse for not winning more in what should have been his absolute prime? He definitely had a powerful roster on his side.

I've said things along those lines many times before, don't bother man, he'll just hate on Kareem.
It's really stupid to underrate a certain player to prop-up another but yea, whatever floats his boat.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Kareem had more impressive stats than Magic the first couple of years but he wasn't better. Kareem rode the Magic ship - Kareem wasn't the leader, he wasn't the guide, he wasn't making the big decisions, he wasn't the reason why his teammates were charged up to win, he was on for the ride, the 80's ride on Magic's ship. Kareem had trouble making Kareem relevant. And you can't tell me Kareem knew how to do this himself before Magic. Magic was the ultimate compliment to the other four players on the court. Before Magic, Kareem rarely played in a complementary style in his 10 year career. Kareem even had motivational issues before Magic wiped that slate clean.

No way does Magic, even young Magic before '86 comes out of the '70's with less than four rings. The 70's were the up for grabs decade. The 80's the most competitive. Even with those 70's teams that were built around Kareem, Magic wouldn't get less than three rings. Kareem was the biggest product of a player making another player better there ever was. No way does a player go from the worst decade ever in his prime/peak and then come off of his best days into the best era ever, as a winner without a narrative. Without Magic, Kareem could definitely go down as one of the biggest underachievers ever. And if Magic played in the 70's he just might be bigger than he was in the 80's.

Please stop it. :facepalm (I'm starting to believe you and Lazeruss are the same guy really, too obvious now).
"Kareem rode the Magic ship" :lol :facepalm :rolleyes:
What a shitty post.

Kareem was still a beast in 1980, a top3 player of all-time still in his prime, not long past his peak and his peak is amongst the best ever. They don't even get to the Finals without him, let alone making it to game6 when Magic had that amazing game (Wilkes too though, forgotten). He was terrific on both sides. Why do you think he won MVP (all-nba 1st, all-defensive 1st)? Who do you think was their defensive anchor and playing dpoy-level D? Who do you think they went to in the clutch? Great rebounder and one of the best passers at the center position.
Easily the best player on the Lakers until '82, after that it was 1a/1b like said before, and Kareem had more claim as 1a for like 2/3 years.
Shit, Kareem had one of the GOAT Finals performances in 1985, at 37 years old!! If it wasn't for that and Bird's injury, Magic wouldn't be able to lead them (probably choke again).
Magic can only claim to be top dog, the clear alpha since 1986. I love Magic, top 5 all-time imo but please let's not overrate him. Give the Lakers a Robert Parish type of player and let Magic be the alpha since day 1, do you think they win 5? Not even close.

[dankok8]

Kareem had more impressive stats than Magic the first couple of years but he wasn't better. Kareem rode the Magic ship - Kareem wasn't the leader, he wasn't the guide, he wasn't making the big decisions, he wasn't the reason why his teammates were charged up to win, he was on for the ride, the 80's ride on Magic's ship. Kareem had trouble making Kareem relevant. And you can't tell me Kareem knew how to do this himself before Magic. Magic was the ultimate compliment to the other four players on the court. Before Magic, Kareem rarely played in a complementary style in his 10 year career. Kareem even had motivational issues before Magic wiped that slate clean.

No way does Magic, even young Magic before '86 comes out of the '70's with less than four rings. The 70's were the up for grabs decade. The 80's the most competitive. Even with those 70's teams that were built around Kareem, Magic wouldn't get less than three rings. Kareem was the biggest product of a player making another player better there ever was. No way does a player go from the worst decade ever in his prime/peak and then come off of his best days into the best era ever, as a winner without a narrative. Without Magic, Kareem could definitely go down as one of the biggest underachievers ever. And if Magic played in the 70's he just might be bigger than he was in the 80's.

Not until 8 years into Showtime did Magic become better than Kareem my friend. Here are some articles that talk about how Magic finally took the torch from Kareem in 86-87 and became the leader of the Lakers.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1200219


Kareem passed the torch, unselfishly, realizing that at 40, he could no longer dominate the offense.


“Everyone on the team accepted my new role, and that was the key,” said Magic, who has added an adaptation of Abdul-Jabbar’s sky hook to his showcase. “Kareem gave me the nod. He told me to take over, go for it. - Magic Johnson


“I never had doubts that I could do it, but there were other people to consider. Kareem, James [Worthy]. I didn’t know how they would be affected. It would have been frustrating if they hadn’t accepted my new role.
I knew I would eventually shoot more, but I thought it would be after Jabbar was gone.” - Magic Johnson


“I had doubts, repeated doubts that this would work,” Riley confessed. “I was unfamiliar with the territory I was treading. The first week of training camp was as chaotic as anything I’d ever been through. I was comfortable with the old offense. I had the greatest post player of all time. But I knew we had to make a change.”


This season’s Lakers were different from any previous Laker teams. When it came time for “Showtime,” the spotlight was on, not Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, as it had been for the previous decade, but Johnson.

And so on...

Magic wouldn't win anything in the 70's with the shit sandwich Kareem had. He couldn't carry a team with his scoring nearly as well and he couldn't anchor the defense. Heck no player could win with the circumstances Kareem had from 71-72 to 78-79. Read about those teams, their key injuries in the playoffs, the juggernauts they faced, Adrian Dantley the "team cancer" etc etc.

EDIT: SHAQisGOAT with some great posts above!

[SHAQisGOAT]

Lazeruss or anybody else who's seen a lot of Moses - Can you describe his offensive game? What sort of post moves did he have? How much of his scoring came from putbacks, transition, jumpers, pick-and-roll, etc.?

Apologies for my ignorance, but I know remarkably little about him compared to most of the other great big men.

He wasn't no Hakeem in the post, let's say, not even close, his game wasn't pretty to see or refined but he got the job done, great overall scorer in his prime. Had a pretty good, although awkward, hook-shot. He was strong and physical while backing down. Of course he got plenty of points on putbacks, simply one of the GOAT rebounders, just pure hustle, physicality and great positioning. He didn't have much athleticism but was athletic enough, one of the greatest things about him was that he could "re-jump" after touching the ground very quickly. Had a good touch around the rim. He could face up and drive as well, decent ball-handler too. Could take the contact and finish, one of the greatest at drawing fouls too. Also, he could shoot around 75% at the line, which is pretty good for a center. And one area where he doesn't get enough credit is shooting, he was no slouch in stepping out and hitting the mid, and close range J.
He could also play some pretty good D. Too much of a blackhole, on offense, at times, though.

[Pointguard]

Please stop it. :facepalm (I'm starting to believe you and Lazeruss are the same guy really, too obvious now).
"Kareem rode the Magic ship" :lol :facepalm :rolleyes:
What a shitty post.
You really need to grow up or at least defend yourself after you go off on these childish responses.

Simple question to you. Who was running the show or ship in LA? When did the show change, and who do you think had a winning way about them? Who made other players better - Kareem included. Who was the decision maker?


Kareem was still a beast in 1980, a top3 player of all-time still in his prime, not long past his peak and his peak is amongst the best ever. They don't even get to the Finals without him, let alone making it to game6 when Magic had that amazing game (Wilkes too though, forgotten). He was terrific on both sides. Why do you think he won MVP (all-nba 1st, all-defensive 1st)? Who do you think was their defensive anchor and playing dpoy-level D? Who do you think they went to in the clutch? Great rebounder and one of the best passers at the center position.

Easily the best player on the Lakers until '82, after that it was 1a/1b like said before, and Kareem had more claim as 1a for like 2/3 years.
Shit, Kareem had one of the GOAT Finals performances in 1985, at 37 years old!! If it wasn't for that and Bird's injury, Magic wouldn't be able to lead them (probably choke again).
Magic can only claim to be top dog, the clear alpha since 1986. I love Magic, top 5 all-time imo but please let's not overrate him. Give the Lakers a Robert Parish type of player and let Magic be the alpha since day 1, do you think they win 5? Not even close.

All of those things you said about Kareem, he was doing it at much higher levels the previous 8 years. Scoring, rebounding, blocking were much better and he had much more separation from the league and he didn't win anything, while guys like Rick Barry, a kind of wild shooter, with almost no help at all - a rookie Jamal Wilkes I think was his best help could win it all. Not one other franchise player or team in the league. And Kareem couldn't win when the league was at an all time low.

Magic's game was inhibited a bit by Kareem. Magic would have been a much more prolific scorer had Kareem not been there. Magic's shooting percentage was always very high - higher consistently higher than Bird. So there is no telling how much they win with Robert Parrish in Kareem's spot. Magic was the premier winner in the 80's and when Kareem wasn't productive the team didn't miss a beat. In fact, they definitely gained a beat. When Kareem saw his role reduced the Lakers had the best offensive team ever start winning more games than ever.

Kareem was a witness. He didn't have his hand on the steering wheel at all.

[D.J.]

He was never a flashy player. He was going up against guys like Magic, Bird, Kareem, Gervin, Dr. J., Bernard King, Dantley, English. Moses was a gritty player. Always gave 110%, but those types always get overlooked. Casual fans value flash over grit. And it didn't help that Moses wasn't the most likeable guy.

[Pointguard]

Not until 8 years into Showtime did Magic become better than Kareem my friend. Here are some articles that talk about how Magic finally took the torch from Kareem in 86-87 and became the leader of the Lakers.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1200219

Kareem passed the torch, unselfishly, realizing that at 40, he could no longer dominate the offense.
In '87 when Kareem was 39 the Lakers had the most proficient/efficient offenses ever with Magic scoring 24ppg 12.2 assist and Kareem averaging 17.5 ppg. Obviously the torch passing was missed. The year before that Worthy was more efficient from the field and didn't burn up 17 seconds of the clock. Magic controlled the pace of the game allowed Kareem a ton of conveniences. And several years before that Kareem complained to management why was Magic the franchise player. Ownership knew whose team it was, Kareem knew whose team it was and Magic transformed it from the team Kareem ran.

And Magic had more control of a game than any player before or after him. So it's a totally different thing than with any other player.



“Everyone on the team accepted my new role, and that was the key,” said Magic, who has added an adaptation of Abdul-Jabbar’s sky hook to his showcase. “Kareem gave me the nod. He told me to take over, go for it. - Magic Johnson
Kareem was a maniac and often complained about Magic being the man. Magic seemed to let it roll it off of his sleeves. But that statement is the in reference to the half court set. Not to how the team is ran, Kareem was the feature... the feature on the ship - not the ship itself.

The import of winning was Magic.

The game of productivity was Kareem.



Magic wouldn't win anything in the 70's with the shit sandwich Kareem had. He couldn't carry a team with his scoring nearly as well and he couldn't anchor the defense. Heck no player could win with the circumstances Kareem had from 71-72 to 78-79. Read about those teams, their key injuries in the playoffs, the juggernauts they faced, Adrian Dantley the "team cancer" etc etc.

That Rick Barry team was injured when the GM put it together. Eight years without any team really distinguishing themselves - 7 other players had a breakthrough because they created the breakthrough and most of them weren't great players. Kareem didn't have a breakthrough in mediocrity, when he was a great player. Rarely could anybody pick a winner at the beginning of any of those years.

A winner like Magic makes it work. A breakthrough is considered settling. Magic was a winner his entire career. There was no mediocrity from competition in Magic's entire career - not one year even in college. It wasn't a breakthrough for Magic. Winning was the way he was.

Btw, Kareem himself had an attitude problem in a couple of those years, so you don't have to point out Dantley.

What event happened that flipped Kareem's winning ways? I have Kareem top 4 on my GOAT list so I think he's great indeed. But somethings he wasn't.

[LAZERUSS]

Not until 8 years into Showtime did Magic become better than Kareem my friend. Here are some articles that talk about how Magic finally took the torch from Kareem in 86-87 and became the leader of the Lakers.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1200219







And so on...

Magic wouldn't win anything in the 70's with the shit sandwich Kareem had. He couldn't carry a team with his scoring nearly as well and he couldn't anchor the defense. Heck no player could win with the circumstances Kareem had from 71-72 to 78-79. Read about those teams, their key injuries in the playoffs, the juggernauts they faced, Adrian Dantley the "team cancer" etc etc.

EDIT: SHAQisGOAT with some great posts above!

I have never been a fan of quotes. For years the Simmonites were quoting Jerry West and Rick Barry as bashing Wilt. Now, in the last few years, we have read interviews, or WATCHED them, in which BOTH have proclaimed Wilt as the greatest center who ever played.

I won't waste my time looking up the articles that were proclaiming Magic as the best player in the league following his 81-82 Finals. And he certainly was LA's best player by that time. I am not a huge fan of the MVP voting, but Magic outvoted KAJ in each of the last eight years of their 10 years in the league together (and BTW, Kareem was robbing Magic of total votes as well.) Clearly, the vast majority of observers and players considered Magic as the greater of the two.

And I have contended that KAJ was not even LA's second best player on their '87 title team (and in fact, they were so talented, I think they would have won a title without him.) And he was only their fifth best player (if that) on their 87-88 title team, and in fact, won the crown DESPITE him (he was simply awful in the post-season,...more horrific in the Finals, ...and utterly worthless in game seven of that Finals.)

And while KAJ won the FMVP (and deservedly so) in '85, Magic was their best player in that post-season run. And even his numbers don't do him justice. He was dominating games in which he was scoring less than 10 points.

And the reality was, the Lakers didn't miss a beat when KAJ retired. In fact, they had their second best record in the decade of the 80's (63-19.) And then Magic carried a declining and injury-plagued Laker team to a 58-24 record and yet another trip to the Finals in his very last season.

And what happened after Magic retired? They fell to 43-39, and followed that up with a 39-43 record the very next season.

It was MAGIC...from DAY ONE...who was carrying those teams. And no one reaped more of the benefit, than Kareem.

[dankok8]

You really need to grow up or at least defend yourself after you go off on these childish responses.

Simple question to you. Who was running the show or ship in LA? When did the show change, and who do you think had a winning way about them? Who made other players better - Kareem included. Who was the decision maker?


All of those things you said about Kareem, he was doing it at much higher levels the previous 8 years. Scoring, rebounding, blocking were much better and he had much more separation from the league and he didn't win anything, while guys like Rick Barry, a kind of wild shooter, with almost no help at all - a rookie Jamal Wilkes I think was his best help could win it all. Not one other franchise player or team in the league. And Kareem couldn't win when the league was at an all time low.

Magic's game was inhibited a bit by Kareem. Magic would have been a much more prolific scorer had Kareem not been there. Magic's shooting percentage was always very high - higher consistently higher than Bird. So there is no telling how much they win with Robert Parrish in Kareem's spot. Magic was the premier winner in the 80's and when Kareem wasn't productive the team didn't miss a beat. In fact, they definitely gained a beat. When Kareem saw his role reduced the Lakers had the best offensive team ever start winning more games than ever.

Kareem was a witness. He didn't have his hand on the steering wheel at all.

70's weak league? :wtf:

Just because it was era of parity doesn't mean it was weak. In fact many potential dynasties were screwed by injuries. West/Hairston in '73, Havlicek in '73, Cowens in '77, Walton in '78 come to mind. And of course Kareem's own teams... Oscar and McGlocklin in '72, Dandridge in '73, Allen in '74, Kareem himself in '75, Kermit and Allen in '77 etc.

The only team that won a title in the 70's without multiple stars was the '75 Warriors and the managed to upset 2 very strong teams in the Bulls and Bullets.

'71 was the only year Kareem had a cast and the health to contend and his Bucks set all-time records in dominance on their way to a title. Which other year were Kareem's teams the favorites?

When Magic came Lakers also got rid of Dantley and brought in Chones and Haywood. Guys who defended, rebounder, and weren't *** pricks and chemistry killers like AD. That improved the Lakers as much as Magic's arrival. Playing Cooper more also helped since the Sonics' Gus Williams absolutely torched the Lakers in both '78 and '79 postseasons.

You realize nobody considered Magic a top 5 player his first two years in the league and nobody considered him in conversation with Bird until 86-87?


In '87 when Kareem was 39 the Lakers had the most proficient/efficient offenses ever with Magic scoring 24ppg 12.2 assist and Kareem averaging 17.5 ppg. Obviously the torch passing was missed. The year before that Worthy was more efficient from the field and didn't burn up 17 seconds of the clock. Magic controlled the pace of the game allowed Kareem a ton of conveniences. And several years before that Kareem complained to management why was Magic the franchise player. Ownership knew whose team it was, Kareem knew whose team it was and Magic transformed it from the team Kareem ran.

And Magic had more control of a game than any player before or after him. So it's a totally different thing than with any other player.

Kareem was 40 years old... and he still averaged 21/8 in the Finals and closed out the Celtics with a monster game.


Kareem was a maniac and often complained about Magic being the man. Magic seemed to let it roll it off of his sleeves. But that statement is the in reference to the half court set. Not to how the team is ran, Kareem was the feature... the feature on the ship - not the ship itself.

The import of winning was Magic.

The game of productivity was Kareem.

With all due respect I've never heard of Kareem complaining about Magic. Source?

And what is import of winning?


I have never been a fan of quotes. For years the Simmonites were quoting Jerry West and Rick Barry as bashing Wilt. Now, in the last few years, we have read interviews, or WATCHED them, in which BOTH have proclaimed Wilt as the greatest center who ever played.

I won't waste my time looking up the articles that were proclaiming Magic as the best player in the league following his 81-82 Finals. And he certainly was LA's best player by that time. I am not a huge fan of the MVP voting, but Magic outvoted KAJ in each of the last eight years of their 10 years in the league together (and BTW, Kareem was robbing Magic of total votes as well.) Clearly, the vast majority of observers and players considered Magic as the greater of the two.

And I have contended that KAJ was not even LA's second best player on their '87 title team (and in fact, they were so talented, I think they would have won a title without him.) And he was only their fifth best player (if that) on their 87-88 title team, and in fact, won the crown DESPITE him (he was simply awful in the post-season,...more horrific in the Finals, ...and utterly worthless in game seven of that Finals.)

And while KAJ won the FMVP (and deservedly so) in '85, Magic was their best player in that post-season run. And even his numbers don't do him justice. He was dominating games in which he was scoring less than 10 points.

And the reality was, the Lakers didn't miss a beat when KAJ retired. In fact, they had their second best record in the decade of the 80's (63-19.) And then Magic carried a declining and injury-plagued Laker team to a 58-24 record and yet another trip to the Finals in his very last season.

And what happened after Magic retired? They fell to 43-39, and followed that up with a 39-43 record the very next season.

It was MAGIC...from DAY ONE...who was carrying those teams. And no one reaped more of the benefit, than Kareem.


How many MVP's and titles does Magic have without Kareem? How about vice versa? Which one of them had a way better team in the years they didn't have each other?

Honestly Magic is my favorite player of all time but some of this stuff is crazy.

In 79-80 and 80-81 Kareem was WAY BETTER than Magic. Look at PER, WS, WS/48, MVP shares. From 81-82 to 85-86 it was a wash between them in all those categories. Riley cut Kareem's minutes but in the playoffs he was usually the Lakers' most productive player.

[La Frescobaldi]

70's weak league? :wtf:

Just because it was era of parity doesn't mean it was weak. In fact many potential dynasties were screwed by injuries. West/Hairston in '73, Havlicek in '73, Cowens in '77, Walton in '78 come to mind. And of course Kareem's own teams... Oscar and McGlocklin in '72, Dandridge in '73, Allen in '74, Kareem himself in '75, Kermit and Allen in '77 etc.

The only team that won a title in the 70's without multiple stars was the '75 Warriors and the managed to upset 2 very strong teams in the Bulls and Bullets.

'71 was the only year Kareem had a cast and the health to contend and his Bucks set all-time records in dominance on their way to a title. Which other year were Kareem's teams the favorites?

When Magic came Lakers also got rid of Dantley and brought in Chones and Haywood. Guys who defended, rebounder, and weren't *** pricks and chemistry killers like AD. That improved the Lakers as much as Magic's arrival. Playing Cooper more also helped since the Sonics' Gus Williams absolutely torched the Lakers in both '78 and '79 postseasons.

You realize nobody considered Magic a top 5 player his first two years in the league and nobody considered him in conversation with Bird until 86-87?



Kareem was 40 years old... and he still averaged 21/8 in the Finals and closed out the Celtics with a monster game.



With all due respect I've never heard of Kareem complaining about Magic. Source?

And what is import of winning?



How many MVP's and titles does Magic have without Kareem? How about vice versa? Which one of them had a way better team in the years they didn't have each other?

Honestly Magic is my favorite player of all time but some of this stuff is crazy.

In 79-80 and 80-81 Kareem was WAY BETTER than Magic. Look at PER, WS, WS/48, MVP shares. From 81-82 to 85-86 it was a wash between them in all those categories. Riley cut Kareem's minutes but in the playoffs he was usually the Lakers' most productive player.


All too true. You can add West & Baylor missing the playoffs in '71, Willis Reed missing the Finals in '72 and numerous other devastating injuries. Nuggets struggled with them, Bulls too. Nate Thurmond was constantly injured.

There was not a 100% consensus about '72, either - there were a lot of people that thought the Bucks might just beat that mighty '72 Lakers squad - talk about terrific battles!!

[LAZERUSS]

70's weak league? :wtf:

Just because it was era of parity doesn't mean it was weak. In fact many potential dynasties were screwed by injuries. West/Hairston in '73, Havlicek in '73, Cowens in '77, Walton in '78 come to mind. And of course Kareem's own teams... Oscar and McGlocklin in '72, Dandridge in '73, Allen in '74, Kareem himself in '75, Kermit and Allen in '77 etc.

The only team that won a title in the 70's without multiple stars was the '75 Warriors and the managed to upset 2 very strong teams in the Bulls and Bullets.

'71 was the only year Kareem had a cast and the health to contend and his Bucks set all-time records in dominance on their way to a title. Which other year were Kareem's teams the favorites?

When Magic came Lakers also got rid of Dantley and brought in Chones and Haywood. Guys who defended, rebounder, and weren't *** pricks and chemistry killers like AD. That improved the Lakers as much as Magic's arrival. Playing Cooper more also helped since the Sonics' Gus Williams absolutely torched the Lakers in both '78 and '79 postseasons.

You realize nobody considered Magic a top 5 player his first two years in the league and nobody considered him in conversation with Bird until 86-87?



Kareem was 40 years old... and he still averaged 21/8 in the Finals and closed out the Celtics with a monster game.



With all due respect I've never heard of Kareem complaining about Magic. Source?

And what is import of winning?



How many MVP's and titles does Magic have without Kareem? How about vice versa? Which one of them had a way better team in the years they didn't have each other?

Honestly Magic is my favorite player of all time but some of this stuff is crazy.

In 79-80 and 80-81 Kareem was WAY BETTER than Magic. Look at PER, WS, WS/48, MVP shares. From 81-82 to 85-86 it was a wash between them in all those categories. Riley cut Kareem's minutes but in the playoffs he was usually the Lakers' most productive player.

Kareem played horribly in the '72 and '73 playoffs... His scoring came on a horrid shooting (.405, and .428 against Nate, and .457 against Wilt, and in that series, he shot .414 over the course of their last four games...three of them Laker wins.) BTW, Oscar was brilliant in the '73 WCF's, while KAJ puked all over the floor.

In the '74 Finals, he played brilliantly, but in the game seven, on his home floor, he was outplayed by Cowens, especially in the 4th quarter, in an embarrassing home blowout defeat.

Oscar retired after that season, and Kareem's Bucks went 38-44 (and only 35-31 with KAJ), and missed the playoffs. BTW, this is where it gets interesting. Rick Barry, with rookie Keith (Jamaal) Wilkes, and a cast of no-names, went 48-34 and won the title. We will get back to that in a few.

He was gladly shipped out of Milwaukee, and went to a Laker team that had gone 30-52 (post-Wilt of course.) KAJ went thru the motions, and led them to a 40-42 record, and yet another missed post-season for KAJ. Meanwhile, the Bucks went 38-44 without him. This was supposedly a prime KAJ, but where were his 71-72 seasonal numbers. He wasn't close, including his mpg, which mysteriously dropped. And yes, McAdoo ran away with the scoring crown (again), but somehow, leading a crappy roster to a 46-36 record, was not good enough to beat out KAJ in the MVP balloting for the second straight season.

In the 76-77 season, KAJ had a very good year. He led the Lakers, in a mediocre NBA, to the best record in the league, at 53-29. He outplayed a Warrior team that was on it's last legs in the first round, and badly outplayed Walton in the WCF's...but, his team was swept. The KAJ-fans love to rip Wilt for his playoff losses, even when he battering Russell into the ground in nearly every one of them, but then they give KAJ a free pass that season.

The Lakers roster in the 77-78 was the most STACKED in the league. They added Dantley, who was a 27 ppg when they acquired him, to go along with Nixon, Hudson, and oh, a more prime Wilkes. What happened? They were stomped in the first round of the playoffs by a Seattle team that had gone 47-35, and only had one borderline HOF player. Absolutely NO EXCUSE for not winning a title in '78. And to make matters worse, a 44-38 Bullets team DID win the title.

The Lakers now had a year with that roster, and guess what? In 78-79 they could only go 47-35, and were once again slaughtered by that Sonics team (52-30) that had far less talent. FAR less.

Of course, MAGIC arrived the next season, and ... a 60-22 record, a blowout series win over those Sonics, and a dominating title, which included MAGIC's clinching game six performance, on the road and withOUT KAJ, who was at home eating popcorn on his couch.

In 80-81, MOSES absolutely wiped the floor with KAJ (of course Magic was coming back late from an injury that shelved him for half the season...and it was his worst playoff series of hi career.) In any case, Moses, with far less surrounding talent (on a 40-42 team) dominated KAJ, and the Rockets stunned the heavily-favored defending champions. Oh, and KAJ only shot .462 in that series. Yet another playoff series in which he couldn't even shoot the league avearge.

In 81-82...guess what. It was MAGIC again winning the FMVP, in a post-season in which McAdoo, now a reserve, was as productive as KAJ.

In the 82-83 Finals, Moses just carpet-bombed a helpless KAJ, and yet another sweeping loss for Kareem.

In the 83-84 Finals, while everyone loved to point the finger at Magic, who led LA in rebounding (as he often would in the post-season, while KAJ watched), with 18 ppg, 13.6 apg, and a .560 FG%, how about KAJ? In game five, he shot 7-25, and for the series, he shot .481 (just behind Bird's .488.)

In the 84-85 playoffs, it was MAGIC who was leading an offense that would run the league into the ground, and in that post-season, they averaged 126 ppg. Still, KAJ had a brilliant Finals, (after sleep-walking thru the first game), and deserved won the FMVP.

In the 85-86 regular season, KAJ bombed Hakeem in their five H2H's with a 33 ppg .610 FG% (and over the course of their 10 straight H2H's from 84-85 thru 85-86..it was 32 ppg on a .621 FG%.) But, the Rockets switched Sampson on KAJ in the WCF's, and Kareem dropped dramatically, (a 27 ppg, 6 rpg, .496 series.) Again, in his biggest games, he played his worst.

In the 86-87 season, Magic took over the scoring load (as he ALWAYS could have) and put up one of the greatest Finals ever, with a 26 ppg, 8 rpg (leading LA yet again), 13 apg, .541 FG%, .960 FT% series. And along with Worthy, they destroyed the defending champions in a 4-2 series that was nowhere close (in three of LA's wins they enjoyed 20+ point leads.) KAJ was their "third-wheel" but he could easily have been replaced with more minutes for Mychael Thompson and AC Green.

In the 87-88 post-season, the Lakers won a title DESPITE Kareem, who was just horrific. He averaged 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and shot .414 in the Finals, and had the worst game seven performance ever by a GOAT candidate.

In his last season, 88-89, despite contributing little, the Lakers steamrolled thru the playoffs, going 11-0. But Byron Scott was injured in that 11th game, and would miss the rest of the playoffs. Still, LA was only down 1-0 in the Finals, and tied in game two, when Magic went down with what essentially ended his post-season. The Lakers were swept.

KAJ retired, and the Lakers IMPROVED from a 57-25 team, to a 63-19 team. Then, in the following season, Magic took a Laker team on it's last legs to a 58-24 record, and then to his ninth Finals.

Magic "retired" after that,...and LA slipped to 43-39 (or roughly about what they were playing when he arrived), and then down to a 39-43 record the very next season.

I'm sorry, but I see MAGIC's imprint all over those Laker teams. KAJ was along for the ride.

[Pointguard]

70's weak league? :wtf:
Name me a weaker era?

Name me the player you have in your top ten GOAT list in his prime from the 70's not named Kareem? Am I imagining things?



Just because it was era of parity doesn't mean it was weak. In fact many potential dynasties were screwed by injuries. West/Hairston in '73, Havlicek in '73, Cowens in '77, Walton in '78 come to mind. And of course Kareem's own teams... Oscar and McGlocklin in '72, Dandridge in '73, Allen in '74, Kareem himself in '75, Kermit and Allen in '77 etc.
Wow, this is exactly what I'm talking about. The majority of the guys you named are no where near franchise players in other era's. Hondo, Oscar and West had primes mostly in the 60's and are not franchise players in the 70's. Walton is the decades hurt guy but every decade has one or more. Those names aren't on the level of this years injuries alone to Rose, Westbrook, Rondo, CP3, Kobe, Deron Williams and Ginobli is definitely a superior list of outstanding players.


'71 was the only year Kareem had a cast and the health to contend and his Bucks set all-time records in dominance on their way to a title. Which other year were Kareem's teams the favorites?
There were no favorites those years. That's when it's easiest to win. Most of Kareem's teams were better than Barry's chip season, without question. Wilkes in his rookie season was the second best player on the Warriors that year and there was little else on that team. Wilkes was in his prime with Kareem and was arguably the fourth best player on Kareems teams. Wilkes, Norm Nixon, Hudson and Dantley should have beaten a guard oriented team in Seattle of Gus Williams and DJ when the league wasn't guard oriented at all. They have enough good guys to go thru injuries and shouldn't only win one game against the later on champs.

The year before that '78 the past prime Dandridge and Hayes win it all for Washington. When Kareem has Wilkes, Nix, prime Kermit, Hudson. They win one playoff game.

The year before that '77 Portland, a team that was very inefficient, had Maurice Lucas - a non skilled forward as its leading scorer. Walton was stellar defensively and all around game but you figure Kareem's team could have won one game against them. Portland was a better team and Kareem had great stats in the post season.

In 76 which is considered a peak year by Kareem according to some here but he doesn't make it to the playoffs despite a great year from Goodrich and a solid year from Allen. Jojo White and Dave Cowens lead the Celtics to a ring.

Its opportunity time. Its wide open as every year has different players taking the opportunity. Please name me the great team of that time period? The players getting rings are easily far behind the players of other era's winning rings. Do want us to compare?


When Magic came Lakers also got rid of Dantley and brought in Chones and Haywood. Guys who defended, rebounder, and weren't *** pricks and chemistry killers like AD. That improved the Lakers as much as Magic's arrival. Playing Cooper more also helped since the Sonics' Gus Williams absolutely torched the Lakers in both '78 and '79 postseasons.

Wilkes and Kareem played with purpose and passion, that was the biggest change. Not Chones or Haywood. The team played together unlike any Kareem team before.


You realize nobody considered Magic a top 5 player his first two years in the league and nobody considered him in conversation with Bird until 86-87?

Like I said that doesn't phase me because Bird definitely had nowhere near the playoff successes that Magic had before '84. In fact, he was very inconsistent and not dependable and the only time when they won it all a scrub player got the FMVP over him. Magic was way more efficient, was more creative, a better winner, a better passer, an equal rebounder for his position, and controlled the game more than Bird til '84. And in the playoffs he shot so much better from the field Bird's advantage there wasn't much. Bird had those three great years and it mixed things up in people's heads. And Magic literally ran Bird and the Celtics into the ground in '85


Kareem was 40 years old... and he still averaged 21/8 in the Finals and closed out the Celtics with a monster game.
He still had it but he was in Worthy's way a bit and without Magic Kareem retires much earlier. Kareem without Magic talked of retiring in '78. It is highly doubtful that Kareem plays past 81 without Magic. Kareem woke up when Magic came to the team. He was just playing literally by himself for years before Magic. He even talked of not liking the game before Magic.


With all due respect I've never heard of Kareem complaining about Magic. Source?

He was going to quit the team. He was a bit of a jerk. And he was like that for like two years. Went to the media and asked them if Magic was management or a teammate after Magic got the franchise contract. And then asked Magic to help him with his finances and image. He was a bit of a weirdo. But it shouldn't be hard to find. I'm not going to dig it up now but the old school guys here can tell you.



How many MVP's and titles does Magic have without Kareem? How about vice versa? Which one of them had a way better team in the years they didn't have each other?
I can't say. Magic wasn't egotistical and catered his game to Kareem rather than develop his own individual mark because he was very mature and was team first. We don't know if Magic would be more like Lebron or not. Magic ability to feed the post and see over people made Kareem's life incredibly easy. He is the best compliment Kareem could ever had. Worthy was a better fit for Magic because he could run or do the post game. And Magic could hype any great player to another level. I think Scott and Worthy were not impact players without Magic and that proved true as the argument could be made they weren't even that good.

Magic would have been winning somewhere and somehow. Kareem got his MVP's because the 70's didn't have great competitors like the 80's had.


Honestly Magic is my favorite player of all time but some of this stuff is crazy.
Its not crazy at all. There are two Kareems plain and simple. Super productive Kareem in an era without franchise players that didn't hook up with 4 other players well and then there's Magic's Kareem that won prolifically, played with purpose and sacrifice in the most competitive era. There is a very definite, before and after picture. And you are lying to yourself if you don't see it. Before Magic, Kareem was talking of retirement, was really aloof, didn't have good re-pore with teammates, wasn't winning. Those qualities were totally flipped when Magic arrived.


In 79-80 and 80-81 Kareem was WAY BETTER than Magic. Look at PER, WS, WS/48, MVP shares. From 81-82 to 85-86 it was a wash between them in all those categories. Riley cut Kareem's minutes but in the playoffs he was usually the Lakers' most productive player.
Kareem without Magic is at best 1977 or 76 Kareem a great player that couldn't tune his game into what four other players were doing. Kareem had trouble connecting with people and teammates. That was his productive peak, early 70's and '76. Kareem had other peaks because of Magic (winning peak, team playing peak) a player that could reach him socially and could connect him to the team on the court. Kareem needed Magic.

[LAZERUSS]

How many MVP's and titles does Magic have without Kareem? How about vice versa? Which one of them had a way better team in the years they didn't have each other?

I would argue that Magic would certainly have won a ring without Kareem in '88. Hell, you could have plugged Carrot Top into the Laker center slot, and gotten better production.

And I would also argue that Thompson and Green, given more minutes, would have replaced Kareem's production in '87, as well. And I have no doubt that Magic could have scored more had he needed to.

So, I honestly believe Magic would have won two rings without Kareem.

Furthermore, you could make a case that he won one without Kareem in '80. As great as KAJ played in the '80 Finals, Magic was even greater in his game seven performance, and it came withOUT KAJ.


But how about the flip side? Does KAJ win Laker titles without Magic? Hell no. He proved that he couldn't do it in his prime. In fact, the one title he won in '71, with the Bucks, was nothing to write home about. His Bucks beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round. Then, in the WCF's, in a series in which Chamberlain was the better player, his Bucks beat a 48-34 Laker team without both West and Baylor (and later Erickson.) Then they swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

The REALITY was, MAGIC was the "winner" in these discussions. After his 71-72 season, Kareem started a slow decline. Granted, he was so brilliant in his first three seasons (well, the second half of his rookie season, into the '71 regular season, into the '71 playoffs, then into the '72 regular season) that his slow decline was still better than everyone else who played, until Moses came along. Furthermore, he just went through the motions for much of the decade of the 70's. True, when motivated, he would hang 48-50 point games on Walton. But then he would return to his lackluster self, and lead his teams into the playoffs as cannon-fodder.

And once again, Magic outvoted KAJ in the MVP balloting in their last EIGHT seasons together (and again, the KAJ votes hurt Magic's overall voting.) And I'm sorry, but the Lakers best player in their post-seasons, from 81-82 on, was CLEARLY Magic. He was leading the team, outrebounding Kareem in the post-season, putting up prolific TS%'s, and downright dictating the pace of the game.

It was no coincidence that when Magic arrived, the Lakers immediately won a world title (and he won a WELL-DESERVED FMVP in '80 BTW.) And he would guide them to eight more Finals, and four more titles. And again, when Kareem retired, the Lakers didn't miss a beat. When Magic retired, they plummeted to an ordinary team, and it would be years again, when they snagged Shaq and then Kobe, before they returned to where MAGIC had left them.

[dankok8]

Name me a weaker era?

Name me the player you have in your top ten GOAT list in his prime from the 70's not named Kareem? Am I imagining things?


Wow, this is exactly what I'm talking about. The majority of the guys you named are no where near franchise players in other era's. Hondo, Oscar and West had primes mostly in the 60's and are not franchise players in the 70's. Walton is the decades hurt guy but every decade has one or more. Those names aren't on the level of this years injuries alone to Rose, Westbrook, Rondo, CP3, Kobe, Deron Williams and Ginobli is definitely a superior list of outstanding players.

There were no favorites those years. That's when it's easiest to win. Most of Kareem's teams were better than Barry's chip season, without question. Wilkes in his rookie season was the second best player on the Warriors that year and there was little else on that team. Wilkes was in his prime with Kareem and was arguably the fourth best player on Kareems teams. Wilkes, Norm Nixon, Hudson and Dantley should have beaten a guard oriented team in Seattle of Gus Williams and DJ when the league wasn't guard oriented at all. They have enough good guys to go thru injuries and shouldn't only win one game against the later on champs.

The year before that '78 the past prime Dandridge and Hayes win it all for Washington. When Kareem has Wilkes, Nix, prime Kermit, Hudson. They win one playoff game.

The year before that '77 Portland, a team that was very inefficient, had Maurice Lucas - a non skilled forward as its leading scorer. Walton was stellar defensively and all around game but you figure Kareem's team could have won one game against them. Portland was a better team and Kareem had great stats in the post season.

In 76 which is considered a peak year by Kareem according to some here but he doesn't make it to the playoffs despite a great year from Goodrich and a solid year from Allen. Jojo White and Dave Cowens lead the Celtics to a ring.

Its opportunity time. Its wide open as every year has different players taking the opportunity. Please name me the great team of that time period? The players getting rings are easily far behind the players of other era's winning rings. Do want us to compare?


Wilkes and Kareem played with purpose and passion, that was the biggest change. Not Chones or Haywood. The team played together unlike any Kareem team before.

Like I said that doesn't phase me because Bird definitely had nowhere near the playoff successes that Magic had before '84. In fact, he was very inconsistent and not dependable and the only time when they won it all a scrub player got the FMVP over him. Magic was way more efficient, was more creative, a better winner, a better passer, an equal rebounder for his position, and controlled the game more than Bird til '84. And in the playoffs he shot so much better from the field Bird's advantage there wasn't much. Bird had those three great years and it mixed things up in people's heads. And Magic literally ran Bird and the Celtics into the ground in '85

He still had it but he was in Worthy's way a bit and without Magic Kareem retires much earlier. Kareem without Magic talked of retiring in '78. It is highly doubtful that Kareem plays past 81 without Magic. Kareem woke up when Magic came to the team. He was just playing literally by himself for years before Magic. He even talked of not liking the game before Magic.

He was going to quit the team. He was a bit of a jerk. And he was like that for like two years. Went to the media and asked them if Magic was management or a teammate after Magic got the franchise contract. And then asked Magic to help him with his finances and image. He was a bit of a weirdo. But it shouldn't be hard to find. I'm not going to dig it up now but the old school guys here can tell you.


I can't say. Magic wasn't egotistical and catered his game to Kareem rather than develop his own individual mark because he was very mature and was team first. We don't know if Magic would be more like Lebron or not. Magic ability to feed the post and see over people made Kareem's life incredibly easy. He is the best compliment Kareem could ever had. Worthy was a better fit for Magic because he could run or do the post game. And Magic could hype any great player to another level. I think Scott and Worthy were not impact players without Magic and that proved true as the argument could be made they weren't even that good.

Magic would have been winning somewhere and somehow. Kareem got his MVP's because the 70's didn't have great competitors like the 80's had.

Its not crazy at all. There are two Kareems plain and simple. Super productive Kareem in an era without franchise players that didn't hook up with 4 other players well and then there's Magic's Kareem that won prolifically, played with purpose and sacrifice in the most competitive era. There is a very definite, before and after picture. And you are lying to yourself if you don't see it. Before Magic, Kareem was talking of retirement, was really aloof, didn't have good re-pore with teammates, wasn't winning. Those qualities were totally flipped when Magic arrived.

Kareem without Magic is at best 1977 or 76 Kareem a great player that couldn't tune his game into what four other players were doing. Kareem had trouble connecting with people and teammates. That was his productive peak, early 70's and '76. Kareem had other peaks because of Magic (winning peak, team playing peak) a player that could reach him socially and could connect him to the team on the court. Kareem needed Magic.

50's, early 60's, 90's and 00's are all weaker eras than the 70's. The 70's had the highest concentration of talent per team along with the late 60's and 80's.

So your whole argument that Kareem should have won more is based on Barry leading his team to an upset over 2 superior squads? Only Hakeem in '94, Duncan in '03, and Dirk in '11 led clearly underdog teams to titles even in today's much more diluted era for talent. Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Magic, Bird etc. never did... So it's not much of an argument against a player.

'70 and '73 Knicks
'71 Bucks
'72 Lakers
'73, '74, and '76 Celtics
'77 Blazers

are all great teams. '78 Bullets (Hayes, Unseld, Dandridge) and '79 Sonics (Gus Williams, DJ, and Brown in the backcourt and Sikma, Shelton, and Silas up front) were pretty damn good as well. There is no way Kareem had as much talent as these two teams. Consider defense, rebounding etc as well NOT just scoring.

'78 and '79 Lakers had terrible team rebounding (even though Kareem would always lead both team in rebounds), and terrible perimeter defense. Gus Williams averaged 31 ppg on the Lakers in the '79 series and he and DJ ran circles around the LA guards. In '79 WCF Kareem averaged 13 rpg but LA was outrebounded by the Sonics by 14 per game!! In '80 WCF Kareem averaged 12 rpg but now LA outrebounded the Sonics by 2 per game!

Dumping Dantley made the Lakers MUCH MUCH BETTER! He was a cancer who wouldn't defend or rebound. It's addition by subtraction like both Grizz and Raptors got better after dumping guy. And arrival of Chones/Haywood allowed Wilkes to play his natural SF position. Cooper's maturation allowed LA to control Gus.

Kareem won 5 MVP's, an NBA title, and 3 NCAA titles before he ever played with Magic. To say he was unmotivated, a poor winner etc. is pretty damn unfounded.

Magic was more likable than Kareem (like Duncan is more likable than Shaq) but that doesn't make him better.

And whoever thinks Magic deserves the Finals MVP in '80... I mean NO WAY! Magic broke the record for most turnovers in a 6-game Finals series and through 5 games their production wasn't even within a mile. Magic won them 1 game but Kareem's won them 3 games until then.

[Pointguard]

50's, early 60's, 90's and 00's are all weaker eras than the 70's. The 70's had the highest concentration of talent per team along with the late 60's and 80's.

Top ten GOAT list for most people
Russell, Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Oscar, Lebron, West, M Malone, Petitt, Mikan.
Which era is represented the least?

Then 50 best players list:
Unseld, Frazier, Monroe, Hondo, Hayes, Cunningham, Cowens, Bing, Walton

Reed, Lucas and Lenny Wilkins are moreso 60's players.

Easily the weakest representation of eras. Safe to say Walton (great peak but doesn't have the 7 usual required very good years), Unseld, Cunningham, Cowens and Bing are not going to last long. Frazier, Monroe and Hondo are the only three entrenched in the top 40. And are far below the top three of every other era. Cowens/Hondo and Fazier/Monroe played and won together, however they weren't dynasties.

You say the 70's had the highest concentration of talent per team but somehow they amazingly had no dynasties? Not one team that consistently was the top contender more than two years. Who was Barry's help? Past prime Dandridge and Hayes? Maurice Lucas and Walton is ok but their efficiency wasn't good at all, all year long. Gus Williams and DJ??? The first three years of the decade had dynasties Boston, the Knicks, Lakers and Bucks. But its dead after that and incorrect to try to characterize it as the best concentration of talent outside of the 80's.


So your whole argument that Kareem should have won more is based on Barry leading his team to an upset over 2 superior squads? Only Hakeem in '94, Duncan in '03, and Dirk in '11 led clearly underdog teams to titles even in today's much more diluted era for talent. Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Magic, Bird etc. never did... So it's not much of an argument against a player.
Kareem's talent level was vastly superior to most players for the most of the 70's. He won six MVP's. He was on a different level. Gus Williams, Maurice Lucas, Elvin Hayes and Barry were not towering talents when they did it and their teams weren't great. And there were no dynasties at those times. This was the time to do it. Guys few people know were doing it without great talent around them. Kareem was on a different level than these guys. Magic would have done more winning wise in the 70's.


Kareem won 5 MVP's, an NBA title, and 3 NCAA titles before he ever played with Magic. To say he was unmotivated, a poor winner etc. is pretty damn unfounded.
I never said he was always unmotivated and you know that. His rebounding numbers are indicative of something, his not hustling upcourt is indicative of something, and his NBA history is definitely very different after he joins Magic. If you think this is unfounded tell me the better story?


Magic was more likable than Kareem (like Duncan is more likable than Shaq) but that doesn't make him better.

Why did you say this? Shaq was disruptive and cost his teams titles on account of his lack of social skills. Kareem's story was a little different.


And whoever thinks Magic deserves the Finals MVP in '80... I mean NO WAY! Magic broke the record for most turnovers in a 6-game Finals series and through 5 games their production wasn't even within a mile. Magic won them 1 game but Kareem's won them 3 games until then.

Magic has the best turnovers you can make. Magic played the game in a novel way. His passes were one step ahead of where his teammates usually got them. Magic played a risky game to get more out of his players. Kareem never looked more integrated into a team and Wilkes fitted like a glove. The team capitalized on the fast pace of the game and got a ton load of easy baskets. Magic controlled the pace, kept the team on the same page, plugged in many holes, and inspired his teammates. Kareem scored, rebounded and played good defense. They needed both guys one way or the other.

The Sixers were better than any team in Kareem's very long history.

[LAZERUSS]

And whoever thinks Magic deserves the Finals MVP in '80... I mean NO WAY! Magic broke the record for most turnovers in a 6-game Finals series and through 5 games their production wasn't even within a mile. Magic won them 1 game but Kareem's won them 3 games until then.

Of course, given their complete history, the Lakers had no chance in a big game without Magic. BUT, when Kareem was watching the clinching game six on TV, Magic put up a 42 point, 15 rebound (BTW, the next best rebounder in the game had 10), 7 assist, 14-23 FG/FGA, and 14-14 FTA game.

As for TO's, how about KAJ? While Magic averaged 5.0 per game, KAJ averaged 4.0 per game.

And people forget that Magic shot .573 from the field in that series, and .875 from the line, while KAJ shot .549 and .808 respectively, so Magic was easily the more efficient shooter. As a sidenote, Magic had a higher TS% in six of their ten regular seasons together, and then six of their ten playoff seasons together, as well.

Furthermore, while KAJ led the Lakers in rebounding, at 13.6 rpg, Magic averaged 11.2 rpg. And, from about that point on, Magic would outrebound KAJ in several of their post-seasons, including five Finals, together.

Magic also averaged 8.7 apg, despite sharing the PG duties with Nixon (who was at 7.0 apg.) And while KAJ had 23 blocks in that series, Magic had 16 steals.

Of course, the KAJ fans will point to Abdul-Jabbar's 33.4 ppg in his five games,while Magic "only" averaged 21.5 ppg, but here again, KAJ took 133 shots from the field, while Magic only took 82. And Johnson proved in game six, that had he been tasked with scoring more, he easily could have.

Had KAJ played at all in that game six, even with a modest stat-line, and yes, he would have won the FMVP. But the fact remains, in their biggest game of the series, it was MAGIC who carried them to a win...and it came in a game withOUT Kareem.

Magic DESERVED his FMVP. And what's more, he SHOULD have his 4th FMVP in the '88 Finals, as well.

[Dr.J4ever]

Of course, given their complete history, the Lakers had no chance in a big game without Magic. BUT, when Kareem was watching the clinching game six on TV, Magic put up a 42 point, 15 rebound (BTW, the next best rebounder in the game had 10), 7 assist, 14-23 FG/FGA, and 14-14 FTA game.

As for TO's, how about KAJ? While Magic averaged 5.0 per game, KAJ averaged 4.0 per game.

And people forget that Magic shot .573 from the field in that series, and .875 from the line, while KAJ shot .549 and .808 respectively, so Magic was easily the more efficient shooter. As a sidenote, Magic had a higher TS% in six of their ten regular seasons together, and then six of their ten playoff seasons together, as well.

Furthermore, while KAJ led the Lakers in rebounding, at 13.6 rpg, Magic averaged 11.2 rpg. And, from about that point on, Magic would outrebound KAJ in several of their post-seasons, including five Finals, together.

Magic also averaged 8.7 apg, despite sharing the PG duties with Nixon (who was at 7.0 apg.) And while KAJ had 23 blocks in that series, Magic had 16 steals.

Of course, the KAJ fans will point to Abdul-Jabbar's 33.4 ppg in his five games,while Magic "only" averaged 21.5 ppg, but here again, KAJ took 133 shots from the field, while Magic only took 82. And Johnson proved in game six, that had he been tasked with scoring more, he easily could have.

Had KAJ played at all in that game six, even with a modest stat-line, and yes, he would have won the FMVP. But the fact remains, in their biggest game of the series, it was MAGIC who carried them to a win...and it came in a game withOUT Kareem.

Magic DESERVED his FMVP. And what's more, he SHOULD have his 4th FMVP in the '88 Finals, as well.
KAJ was the Laker's best player during the early 80's, not Magic. Beyond the stats, you simply had to watch the games. I suffered through those Sixer losses in 80 and 82, and there was no player we feared more than KAJ. He was the one guy the Sixers had no answer for. The Lakers fastbreak was great and all, but when the game slowed down, Magic would dump it into Kareem, and it was over. In an era when defenses didn't have too many answers in defending the post, great centers dominated.

Magic carrying the Lakers in game 6 in 1980 was more of an aberration. It was more of a matchup thing where the Sixers were caught off-guard on what Magic could actually do. There is absolutely no way that the Lakers win over the Sixers without KAJ in that series. No way.

[LAZERUSS]

KAJ was the Laker's best player during the early 80's, not Magic. Beyond the stats, you simply had to watch the games. I suffered through those Sixer losses in 80 and 82, and there was no player we feared more than KAJ. He was the one guy the Sixers had no answer for. The Lakers fastbreak was great and all, but when the game slowed down, Magic would dump it into Kareem, and it was over. In an era when defenses didn't have too many answers in defending the post, great centers dominated.

Magic carrying the Lakers in game 6 in 1980 was more of an aberration. It was more of a matchup thing where the Sixers were caught off-guard on what Magic could actually do. There is absolutely no way that the Lakers win over the Sixers without KAJ in that series. No way.

Interesting...

How about their '82 Finals?

KAJ averaged 18.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.3 blk, .531 FG%, .537 FT%

Magic averaged 16.2 ppg, 10.8 rpg (easily led BOTH teams), 8.0 apg, 2.5 spg, .533 FG%, .846 FT%

Oh, and how about McAdoo, who played part-time? 16.3 ppg, 5.0 rpg, .569 FG%, .667 FT%? Here is another Finals in which KAJ probably could have been replaced.

Although Dr.J, and even Andrew Toney, played well for Philly, Magic was CLEARLY the best player in that Finals, and again, DESERVEDLY won the FMVP.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, I won't take the time to look all of Moses' H2H's against his HOF peers right now, but in the research that I have done in the past, he just wiped the floor with nearly all of them. I found it amusing that awhile back one poster challenged me on that with Robert Parish...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=parisro01&p2=malonmo01

Just another massive beatdown administered by Moses...

[Dr.J4ever]

Interesting...

How about their '82 Finals?

KAJ averaged 18.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.3 blk, .531 FG%, .537 FT%

Magic averaged 16.2 ppg, 10.8 rpg (easily led BOTH teams), 8.0 apg, 2.5 spg, .533 FG%, .846 FT%

Oh, and how about McAdoo, who played part-time? 16.3 ppg, 5.0 rpg, .569 FG%, .667 FT%? Here is another Finals in which KAJ probably could have been replaced.

Although Dr.J, and even Andrew Toney, played well for Philly, Magic was CLEARLY the best player in that Finals, and again, DESERVEDLY won the FMVP.
The 1981-82 Lakers were an offensive juggernaut with a nightmare of great scorers. KAJ didn't need to dominate scoring as much as Nixon, Wilkes, Mcadoo, and Magic provided a lot of scoring. But believe me as a Sixer fan, we knew KAJ was the biggest nightmare of all. Dawkins remarked many years later that he had dreams of KAJ shooting one hook shot after another as he would wake up from a nightmare.

But you rare right, KAJ could not have won without Magic, but without KAJ, the Lakers would not even have made it to the Finals. Magic simply had not developed into the type of player he would become sometime in the mid 80s, when he was clearly the Lakers best player.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Lazeruss/Pointguard (same dude) always hating on Kareem and Bird while propping up Wilt and Magic, with some bullshit, extremely ignorant arguments that plenty of times don't even make sense or add nothing to the discussion.. Nothing new, nothing to see. Even going against actual facts, actual quotes by players or coaches, so on. :facepalm

This dude dankok has like 100 posts and is straight up killing him, though. :oldlol:

[Dr.J4ever]

BTW, I won't take the time to look all of Moses' H2H's against his HOF peers right now, but in the research that I have done in the past, he just wiped the floor with nearly all of them. I found it amusing that awhile back one poster challenged me on that with Robert Parish...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=parisro01&p2=malonmo01

Just another massive beatdown administered by Moses...
When the Sixers acquired Moses, it was specifically to counter Boston's frontline and to battle KAJ. The sixers knew Moses had dominated KAJ in recent H2H's.

I believe many people underrate Moses due to his less polished skills in passing and athleticism. He was sometimes a "black hole" when you passed him the ball down low. He had difficulty throwing outlet passes to trigger fast breaks, and his small hands caused him to juggle the ball. His fierce determination and smarts around the basket more than made up for his deficiencies. He always knew how to judge where the ball would be going after missed shots, and he was the classic example of Bill Russel's belief that most rebounds are taken below the rim.

[La Frescobaldi]

Top ten GOAT list for most people
Russell, Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Oscar, Lebron, West, M Malone, Petitt, Mikan.
Which era is represented the least?

Then 50 best players list:
Unseld, Frazier, Monroe, Hondo, Hayes, Cunningham, Cowens, Bing, Walton
you forget some Top 50 guys here that played a LOT of ball in the '70s.
Dave DeBusschere. Tiny Archibald. Willis Reed. Jerry West played 5 years in the '70s, Chamberlain 4.

Reed, Lucas and Lenny Wilkins are moreso 60's players.

Easily the weakest representation of eras. Safe to say Walton (great peak but doesn't have the 7 usual required very good years), Unseld, Cunningham, Cowens and Bing are not going to last long. Frazier, Monroe and Hondo are the only three entrenched in the top 40. And are far below the top three of every other era. Cowens/Hondo and Fazier/Monroe played and won together, however they weren't dynasties.

Not at all the weakest era - it's the forgotten era. It doesn't get the accolades of the '60s more because the 1960s was a Golden Era not only in basketball but sports in general, arts, movies, music - everything. Russell & Chamberlain dominated that era like titans and to this day their rivalry dominates the minds of all intelligent basketball fans. That has nothing to do with the parity of the NBA in the far better LEAGUE WIDE '70s. Free agency changed the league so that there would never again be a chance for a Celtics stacked at every position type dynasty to go on and on unendingly.

You say the 70's had the highest concentration of talent per team but somehow they amazingly had no dynasties? Not one team that consistently was the top contender more than two years. Who was Barry's help? Past prime Dandridge and Hayes? Maurice Lucas and Walton is ok but their efficiency wasn't good at all, all year long. Gus Williams and DJ??? The first three years of the decade had dynasties Boston, the Knicks, Lakers and Bucks. But its dead after that and incorrect to try to characterize it as the best concentration of talent outside of the 80's.

There was no chance whatsoever of any team building a dynasty in the '70s. Too many teams were powerhouses for that to ever happen.

Kareem's talent level was vastly superior to most players for the most of the 70's. He won six MVP's. He was on a different level. Gus Williams, Maurice Lucas, Elvin Hayes and Barry were not towering talents when they did it and their teams weren't great. And there were no dynasties at those times. This was the time to do it. Guys few people know were doing it without great talent around them. Kareem was on a different level than these guys. Magic would have done more winning wise in the 70's.

I never said he was always unmotivated and you know that. His rebounding numbers are indicative of something, his not hustling upcourt is indicative of something, and his NBA history is definitely very different after he joins Magic. If you think this is unfounded tell me the better story?


Why did you say this? Shaq was disruptive and cost his teams titles on account of his lack of social skills. Kareem's story was a little different.


Magic has the best turnovers you can make. Magic played the game in a novel way. His passes were one step ahead of where his teammates usually got them. Magic played a risky game to get more out of his players. Kareem never looked more integrated into a team and Wilkes fitted like a glove. The team capitalized on the fast pace of the game and got a ton load of easy baskets. Magic controlled the pace, kept the team on the same page, plugged in many holes, and inspired his teammates. Kareem scored, rebounded and played good defense. They needed both guys one way or the other.

The Sixers were better than any team in Kareem's very long history.

We completely disagree on those points my friend. The '70s was a different time from the '60s but it was a great time for hoops as far as TEAMS. Those guys fought to win championships, not tank or just mail it in like you see so often in the past 20 years or so.

[Pointguard]

KAJ was the Laker's best player during the early 80's, not Magic. Beyond the stats, you simply had to watch the games. I suffered through those Sixer losses in 80 and 82, and there was no player we feared more than KAJ. He was the one guy the Sixers had no answer for. The Lakers fastbreak was great and all, but when the game slowed down, Magic would dump it into Kareem, and it was over. In an era when defenses didn't have too many answers in defending the post, great centers dominated.

Magic carrying the Lakers in game 6 in 1980 was more of an aberration. It was more of a matchup thing where the Sixers were caught off-guard on what Magic could actually do. There is absolutely no way that the Lakers win over the Sixers without KAJ in that series. No way.
To be honest Magic could have played all five positions and Philly would have had no answer for him. And Magic did the Sixers in for both series. That Sixers team would have beat Kareem without Magic probably every year for the previous nine years.

In '82 not only was Magic more efficient than Kareem, the scoring difference wasn't 1 basket per game but Magic outrebounded Kareem by 3 rebounds per game and had way more offensive rebounds. Nobody is even questioning if Kareem was better in the finals than Magic in '82, he simply wasn't. If Philly was looking for an answer to Kareem its no wonder they lost. Fooled once no shame. Fooled twice shame on Philly.

[La Frescobaldi]

When the Sixers acquired Moses, it was specifically to counter Boston's frontline and to battle KAJ. The sixers knew Moses had dominated KAJ in recent H2H's.

I believe many people underrate Moses due to his less polished skills in passing and athleticism. He was sometimes a "black hole" when you passed him the ball down low. He had difficulty throwing outlet passes to trigger fast breaks, and his small hands caused him to juggle the ball. His fierce determination and smarts around the basket more than made up for his deficiencies. He always knew how to judge where the ball would be going after missed shots, and he was the classic example of Bill Russel's belief that most rebounds are taken below the rim.

Centers are supposed to be black holes. The entire point of a play is to get the ball as close to the basket as possible & nobody is closer to the basket than the tallest guy on the court standing beneath it.
The 3 point line has changed that in the past few years but in those days the hundred year old strategy 'take the ball to the hole' was deeply engrained in all players.

[Dr.J4ever]

Centers are supposed to be black holes. The entire point of a play is to get the ball as close to the basket as possible & nobody is closer to the basket than the tallest guy on the court standing beneath it.
The 3 point line has changed that in the past few years but in those days the hundred year old strategy 'take the ball to the hole' was deeply engrained in all players.
Believe me, I'm not disparaging Moses, but he could have passed it a bit more. Bill Walton was not a "black hole", and neither was Kareem.

[Dr.J4ever]

To be honest Magic could have played all five positions and Philly would have had no answer for him. And Magic did the Sixers in for both series. That Sixers team would have beat Kareem without Magic probably every year for the previous nine years.

In '82 not only was Magic more efficient than Kareem, the scoring difference wasn't 1 basket per game but Magic outrebounded Kareem by 3 rebounds per game and had way more offensive rebounds. Nobody is even questioning if Kareem was better in the finals than Magic in '82, he simply wasn't. If Philly was looking for an answer to Kareem its no wonder they lost. Fooled once no shame. Fooled twice shame on Philly.
The Sixers found an answer to Kareem in 1983---Moses. Once KAJ was neutralized, it was all over. The Sixers defeated the Lakers 6 times in 1982-83. Twice in the regular season, four times in the Finals. Complete domination.

[LAZERUSS]

The Sixers found an answer to Kareem in 1983---Moses. Once KAJ was neutralized, it was all over. The Sixers defeated the Lakers 6 times in 1982-83. Twice in the regular season, four times in the Finals. Complete domination.

From 78-79 thru 82-83 (and beyond), Moses just annihilated KAJ.

The Kareem fans just can't accept the fact that Moses completely owned Kareem in their 41 H2H's. And in the playoffs, it was even worse. Not only did Moses badly outscore and outrebound KAJ in then post-season (5-2 in each), but his team's went 6-1 against Kareem's, including 80-81, when Moses took his 40-42 team to a 2-1 series win over KAJ's 54-28 Lakers.

Once again, though, KAJ's absolute peak came very early in his career (from the mid 69-70 season, thru the entire 70-71 season and post-season, and then the 71-72 regular season.) And a prime KAJ played from '69-70 thru 76-77.

[meat]

Because he's a notorious asshole.

[LAZERUSS]

Because he's a notorious asshole.

And yet, by most accounts, so were Kareem and Russell...at least in their playing days. Both have mellowed since.

:confusedshrug:

[Pointguard]

you forget some Top 50 guys here that played a LOT of ball in the '70s.
Dave DeBusschere. Tiny Archibald. Willis Reed. Jerry West played 5 years in the '70s, Chamberlain 4.

Hey Fresco,
I did miss Debusschere, Tiny wasn't top 50 rank I believe? West's prime and most years were in the 60's. The early part of the 70's were indeed competitive primarily because of the 60's players hanging over. But Kareem's super dominance was after Wilt left and when not one super team really being dynastic or having great stars (Celtics being perhaps the exception).


Not at all the weakest era - it's the forgotten era. It doesn't get the accolades of the '60s more because the 1960s was a Golden Era not only in basketball but sports in general, arts, movies, music - everything. Russell & Chamberlain dominated that era like titans and to this day their rivalry dominates the minds of all intelligent basketball fans. That has nothing to do with the parity of the NBA in the far better LEAGUE WIDE '70s. Free agency changed the league so that there would never again be a chance for a Celtics stacked at every position type dynasty to go on and on unendingly.

The early 70's were pretty stacked. But the league in general was in trouble. Magic and Bird are credited with the rebirth because of the dessert of personality, flash, skilled and exciting players. Much less teams that made the game enticing. Magic and Bird made their teams looked super stacked and the game now had a mental and intuitive dimension it simply did not have in the 1970's. Coaches ruled and sometimes ruined the game before Magic and Bird. Now players had a freedom to really improvise. If Archibald comes ten years later he's a top PG all time but the coaches kind of limited the game.

There was no chance whatsoever of any team building a dynasty in the '70s. Too many teams were powerhouses for that to ever happen.

Dynasties by nature are powerhouses.?.? And powerhouses are likely dynasties. Who are the powerhouses after 1973? The aging Celtics but then it gets confusing?


We completely disagree on those points my friend. The '70s was a different time from the '60s but it was a great time for hoops as far as TEAMS. Those guys fought to win championships, not tank or just mail it in like you see so often in the past 20 years or so.
I do think the 70's saw the last of the old school work for a living and love what you workhorses across the board type of players... where everybody had great work ethic. But drugs got into the game and siphoned a lot of the talent. From 75 to 79 it was the best five year span to claim a ring in the history of the sport.

[La Frescobaldi]

Believe me, I'm not disparaging Moses, but he could have passed it a bit more. Bill Walton was not a "black hole", and neither was Kareem.
yes they were, if the play or opportunity called for it, absolutely.

[ImKobe]

Simple, most of us never saw him play and he isn't as famous as Kareem or Wilt. We all know his name and that he was a great player but that's about it.

[Pointguard]

The Sixers found an answer to Kareem in 1983---Moses. Once KAJ was neutralized, it was all over. The Sixers defeated the Lakers 6 times in 1982-83. Twice in the regular season, four times in the Finals. Complete domination.
Philly was on a mission that year. They were totally focused. But Magic's numbers were down that whole year, not just for Philly.

[SHAQisGOAT]

From 78-79 thru 82-83 (and beyond), Moses just annihilated KAJ.

The Kareem fans just can't accept the fact that Moses completely owned Kareem in their 41 H2H's. And in the playoffs, it was even worse. Not only did Moses badly outscore and outrebound KAJ in then post-season (5-2 in each), but his team's went 6-1 against Kareem's, including 80-81, when Moses took his 40-42 team to a 2-1 series win over KAJ's 54-28 Lakers.

Once again, though, KAJ's absolute peak came very early in his career (from the mid 69-70 season, thru the entire 70-71 season and post-season, and then the 71-72 regular season.) And a prime KAJ played from '69-70 thru 76-77.


I don't think anyone would contest against Moses getting the best of Kareem in their H2H matchups, most of the times - doesn't really extend to the level you're taking it though - but Kareem's a top3 player of all-time, a 6x champion, a 6x MVP, a 2x FMVP (should've gotten one in 1980 too), the leading all-time scorer, almost 20 years playing at high level, didn't have a sudden considerable decline when he was still young, would've walked away with like 3 dpoy's had there been the award.... Moses, although definitely a top15 all-time player, can't make those claims or that close. So take those H2H's for what they are...

:facepalm Just because Wilt was still active around those years right? :rolleyes:
Stop with that bullshit, Kareem's absolute peak was around 1977, when he had refined the rougher parts of his game, was still athletic, had higher IQ and had learned the ropes plus put on some weight to deal with the bigger centers because he was skinny for that before.
And his prime lasted until around 1981. Still pretty good afterwards.

You just mad that most people put Kareem ahead of Wilt, then resort to those types of arguments.
Just stupid to discredit (hate on) a certain player to prop-up (overrate) another, and I like Wilt more than Kareem.

[La Frescobaldi]

Hey Fresco,

I did miss Debusschere, Tiny wasn't top 50 rank I believe? West's prime and most years were in the 60's. The early part of the 70's were indeed competitive primarily because of the 60's players hanging over. But Kareem's super dominance was after Wilt left and when not one super team really being dynastic or having great stars (Celtics being perhaps the exception).

The early 70's were pretty stacked. But the league in general was in trouble. Magic and Bird are credited with the rebirth because of the dessert of personality, flash, skilled and exciting players. Much less teams that made the game enticing. Magic and Bird made their teams looked super stacked and the game now had a mental and intuitive dimension it simply did not have in the 1970's. Coaches ruled and sometimes ruined the game before Magic and Bird. Now players had a freedom to really improvise. If Archibald comes ten years later he's a top PG all time but the coaches kind of limited the game.

Dynasties by nature are powerhouses.?.? And powerhouses are likely dynasties. Who are the powerhouses after 1973? The aging Celtics but then it gets confusing?

I do think the 70's saw the last of the old school work for a living and love what you workhorses across the board type of players... where everybody had great work ethic. But drugs got into the game and siphoned a lot of the talent. From 75 to 79 it was the best five year span to claim a ring in the history of the sport.

* Yeah Archibald is on the list.
http://www.nba.com/history/50greatest.html

* Powerhouse teams???
Knicks went to the Eastern Finals from 1969 to 1975, won 2 Finals & played in 3. That Knicks team had FOUR Top 50 Players on its starting 5 and Dollar Bill Bradley is in the Hall of Fame.

Celtics were perennial playoff teams, won rings in '74 & '76 and would have been fierce in '73 if not for Hondo going down.
Bucks & Lakers early on were 2 of the best teams ever seen.
Later on, Walton's Trailblazers and Unseld Bullets had some of the greatest battles ever seen on a court. And the Sonics & Bullets were so well matched in the last half they traded Finals in '78 & '79.

But they had to get to the Finals and that meant getting past Dr. J's Sixers, George Gervin & Special K's Spurs... The Suns faded after the Celtics beat them in '76 but they were always in the playoffs and dangerous as a nest of desert rattlers. Everybody loved the Suns.

Jabbar tilted the Lakers too much. He was so much better than the rest of his team that it warped their sense of reality. Kevin Love has been doing the same thing on the Timberwolves right now, although actually Nikola Pekovic is in the argument about which one is the greater but he gets zero attention because of his pure no-frills basketball game.

There were too many powerful teams in those days for a dynasty to ever take shape. DJ was an amazing player off in Seattle. That dude would just cut you dead on a court. Archibald, Pete Maravich - oh yeah the league was loaded with stars, but unlike those sorry Kansas City Omaha Kings & New Orleans Jazz those guys were on, that had no chance of competing, there were always teams like the Bulls with Chet Walker, Jerry Sloan, Van Lier, Boerwinkel that would just run you over in a heartbeat.

And we haven't even talked about the OP himself ~ Moses Malone on that lousy freaking Rox team.... yet another Top 50 player of the 70s that you didn't list.

At least 15 Top 50 Players were in the league for multiple years in the '70s. I don't care when Jerry West's prime was, as long as his body was strong he was incredible in the '70s, and so was Chamberlain, Lucas, Reed, DeBusschere and all the rest. Oscar Robertson played some of the best basketball ever seen in the '70s. Jabbar himself says the Big O would beat Jordan 1on1 and he only played around Robertson at the end of his days.

Not only that but if Dan Issel had played the first half of his career in the NBA instead of the ABA there's no possibility of him being left off the list. None at all. Nobody even knows about that man but he was one of the best ever.
edit......... did we list Dr. J?

[Owl]

Kareem had more impressive stats than Magic the first couple of years but he wasn't better. Kareem rode the Magic ship - Kareem wasn't the leader, he wasn't the guide, he wasn't making the big decisions, he wasn't the reason why his teammates were charged up to win, he was on for the ride, the 80's ride on Magic's ship. Kareem had trouble making Kareem relevant. And you can't tell me Kareem knew how to do this himself before Magic. Magic was the ultimate compliment to the other four players on the court. Before Magic, Kareem rarely played in a complementary style in his 10 year career. Kareem even had motivational issues before Magic wiped that slate clean.

No way does Magic, even young Magic before '86 comes out of the '70's with less than four rings. The 70's were the up for grabs decade. The 80's the most competitive. Even with those 70's teams that were built around Kareem, Magic wouldn't get less than three rings. Kareem was the biggest product of a player making another player better there ever was. No way does a player go from the worst decade ever in his prime/peak and then come off of his best days into the best era ever, as a winner without a narrative. Without Magic, Kareem could definitely go down as one of the biggest underachievers ever. And if Magic played in the 70's he just might be bigger than he was in the 80's.
Main point first, Kareem had better stats but he wasn't better? The largest area stats don't capture is D an Kareem held a huge edge there (despite his high number of steals Magic was worse than his boxscore on D, in 1983 he made Bob Ryan's All-Sieve (no D) team)

All-Sieve Team
These are the men who habitually end their oponents scoring slumps
F Billy Knight
F Campy Russell
C Dan Issel
G Magic Johnson
G Isiah Thomas
Russell didn't play last year. But he long ago established the standard to which all non-defensive forwards aspire. Interesting, isn't it, that both Magic and Isiah rank high in steals?

Then there's this

Kareem had trouble making Kareem relevant
Really? The (then) five time MVP wasn't relevent (and he'd have had more if people hadn't have gotten tired of giving it to him. Seriously, tell me Dave Cowens was better in '73)?

The only area is the vague talk of "riding Magic's ship" which I'm going to assume means leadership.

Was Magic more convivial than Kareem? Clearly. And this means papers could build their stories around Magic.

Was Magics arrival a significant improvement for the Lakers. Again clearly. He represented a substantial improvement over giving substantial guard minutes to Lou Hudson and Jim Price. But remove Kareem and replace him with a center of that calibre and LA would have fell further than the win total in the high fourties that Kareem's '79 team had.

Who'd win what title with who is a parlour game peripheral to ranking of thre greats. But regarding the "Magic gets three/four rings" theory. The first half of the 70s were highly competitive, and Kareem was magnificent on the Milwaukee title team, I'm not confident that Magic claims that title.

In the latter years of the decade it is true that there was greater parity and you didn't need to be so exceptional (at a team level) to win a title.


You really need to grow up or at least defend yourself after you go off on these childish responses.

Simple question to you. Who was running the show or ship in LA? When did the show change, and who do you think had a winning way about them? Who made other players better - Kareem included. Who was the decision maker?


All of those things you said about Kareem, he was doing it at much higher levels the previous 8 years. Scoring, rebounding, blocking were much better and he had much more separation from the league and he didn't win anything, while guys like Rick Barry, a kind of wild shooter, with almost no help at all - a rookie Jamal Wilkes I think was his best help could win it all. Not one other franchise player or team in the league. And Kareem couldn't win when the league was at an all time low.

Magic's game was inhibited a bit by Kareem. Magic would have been a much more prolific scorer had Kareem not been there. Magic's shooting percentage was always very high - higher consistently higher than Bird. So there is no telling how much they win with Robert Parrish in Kareem's spot. Magic was the premier winner in the 80's and when Kareem wasn't productive the team didn't miss a beat. In fact, they definitely gained a beat. When Kareem saw his role reduced the Lakers had the best offensive team ever start winning more games than ever.

Kareem was a witness. He didn't have his hand on the steering wheel at all.
Aside from using terminology relating to the point guard position e.g. "running the show", to try and prove that Magic was somehow better, I'll answer the questions.

-Who was running the show or ship in LA? Buss, Sharman and West. Unless you mean who was playing point guard, in which case primarily Norm Nixon, sometimes Magic.
-When did the show change? 1979 when LA had two great players rather than one (doesn't make the one who arrived later the better one though).
-who do you think had a winning way about them? What on earth does this mean
-Who made other players better - Kareem included. No one. Wilkes shot better with Magic, but then Nixon shot worse. And if you're going to credit Kareem playing well to Magic then of course you're going to conclude Magic was more important. Not to say Magic didn't help Kareem at all but that influence would be very much marginal. Kareem's advanced stats are very similar across the two years.
Who was the decision maker? Again this is really a point guard based question. Nixon and Magic.

Was 70s Kareem better than 80s Kareem. Yes but that's not the bar. Did 70s Kareem happen to win a lot of titles? No. But in which years should he have.

In '79 was he responsible for the gap between "his" guards' productivity and that of DJ and Gus Williams?

In '77 is it his fault that Kermit Washington got suspended and the second best player on the team in the playoffs was Earl Tatum (who?).

In '76 he's MVP, leads the league in every advanced metric, and it's his fault the Lakers (who gutted their team to get him) don't make the playoffs.

In '75 he was injured but still when playing meant the difference between a .5303 (35-31) team and .1875 (3-13) team. Is boosting his teams win percentage by 34.28%. A substantially greater difference than Magic made upon his arrival (albeit there was significant other roster turnover).

Also your dismissal of Phil Smith, Butch Beard, Clifford Ray, Jeff Mullins and George Johnson as "no help at all" is bizzare, disrespectful and ahistorical. Were they weak champions? Yes. But were they better the remenants of the Bucks? Yes, clearly so.

Only in '78 in 3 game mini-series can you apportion any substantial chunk of the blame on Jabbar. So he had a poor (by his standards) 3 games (that is to say 27/13.7/3.7 with 4 bpg, but a somewhat dissapointing inability to get to the line). Still that team wasn't going anywhere with Magic in Jabbar's place either.

What Magic's shooting percentage, relative to Bird's, has to do with anything is beyond me, though through '86 it must be noted they had very different roles. Bird being the centrepoint of his offense, whilst Magic's usage was only slightly above average.

That Magic and Jabbar were a sub-optimal pairing may be true, and even that Magic may have felt the brunt of that statistically. Then again playing with a (for much of the 80s) less than dominant rebounder (and LA never had notable PFs) helped inflate Magics rebounds.

Regarding the comment (having already noted that winning in the early 70s meant going through some legendary teams).

The 70's were the up for grabs decade. The 80's the most competitive.
Note how often the mid to late 80s Lakers had one of the easiest 30 schedules in history. The Lakers practically had a bye into the finals whilst some combination of Boston, Philly, Milwaukee and Detroit slugged it out in the East.

The notion that the fading of Jabbar, rather than the emergence of younger players Worthy and Scott (and indeed Magic, partly by role, partly just improvement) is what helped LAs offense become even better is laughable, that he was "a witness" even more so.

[Pointguard]

Lazeruss/Pointguard (same dude) always hating on Kareem and Bird while propping up Wilt and Magic, with some bullshit, extremely ignorant arguments that plenty of times don't even make sense or add nothing to the discussion.. Nothing new, nothing to see. Even going against actual facts, actual quotes by players or coaches, so on. :facepalm

This dude dankok has like 100 posts and is straight up killing him, though. :oldlol:
Once again another childish post and I think you might have some age on you? Constantly calling things ignorant but never coming up with substance or a real grown up counter. If something doesn't make sense go at it like Danko8 does. He's mature, knows how to debate, doesn't call names, comes back with at least something. I've repped him because of his demeanor.

I don't hate Kareem or Bird. Saying Bird came into the league with problems in the post season isn't hard to prove at all. Saying Magic came in with success in the post season is obvious. I have often said Bird had a great three year peak - one of the best. I have Kareem in my top 4 GOAT. When I asked you a simple question: Who was running the show or ship in LA? When did the show change, and who do you think had a winning way about them? Who made other players better - Kareem included. Who was the decision maker on the Lakers?

I predicted you would leave, not answer and come back acting childish because this is your consistent behavior. The option to grow up and debate is there. I doubt you will take it but it would be good for the board if you did.

[Owl]

Top ten GOAT list for most people
Russell, Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Oscar, Lebron, West, M Malone, Petitt, Mikan.
Which era is represented the least?

Then 50 best players list:
Unseld, Frazier, Monroe, Hondo, Hayes, Cunningham, Cowens, Bing, Walton

Reed, Lucas and Lenny Wilkins are moreso 60's players.

Easily the weakest representation of eras. Safe to say Walton (great peak but doesn't have the 7 usual required very good years), Unseld, Cunningham, Cowens and Bing are not going to last long. Frazier, Monroe and Hondo are the only three entrenched in the top 40. And are far below the top three of every other era. Cowens/Hondo and Fazier/Monroe played and won together, however they weren't dynasties.

You say the 70's had the highest concentration of talent per team but somehow they amazingly had no dynasties? Not one team that consistently was the top contender more than two years. Who was Barry's help? Past prime Dandridge and Hayes? Maurice Lucas and Walton is ok but their efficiency wasn't good at all, all year long. Gus Williams and DJ??? The first three years of the decade had dynasties Boston, the Knicks, Lakers and Bucks. But its dead after that and incorrect to try to characterize it as the best concentration of talent outside of the 80's.

Kareem's talent level was vastly superior to most players for the most of the 70's. He won six MVP's. He was on a different level. Gus Williams, Maurice Lucas, Elvin Hayes and Barry were not towering talents when they did it and their teams weren't great. And there were no dynasties at those times. This was the time to do it. Guys few people know were doing it without great talent around them. Kareem was on a different level than these guys. Magic would have done more winning wise in the 70's.

I never said he was always unmotivated and you know that. His rebounding numbers are indicative of something, his not hustling upcourt is indicative of something, and his NBA history is definitely very different after he joins Magic. If you think this is unfounded tell me the better story?


Why did you say this? Shaq was disruptive and cost his teams titles on account of his lack of social skills. Kareem's story was a little different.


Magic has the best turnovers you can make. Magic played the game in a novel way. His passes were one step ahead of where his teammates usually got them. Magic played a risky game to get more out of his players. Kareem never looked more integrated into a team and Wilkes fitted like a glove. The team capitalized on the fast pace of the game and got a ton load of easy baskets. Magic controlled the pace, kept the team on the same page, plugged in many holes, and inspired his teammates. Kareem scored, rebounded and played good defense. They needed both guys one way or the other.

The Sixers were better than any team in Kareem's very long history.
Bill Simmons is a huge 80s basketball fan. Yet even in his Book of Basketball he has substantially more 70s players in his top 96 player than 80s

Here's his 70s guys
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
John Havlicek
Julius Erving
Rick Barry
Bill Walton
Dave Cowens
Walt Frazier
George Gervin
Wes Unseld
Billy Cunningham
Elvin Hayes
Nate Archibald
Bob McAdoo
Earl Monroe
Pete Maravich
David Thompson
Artis Gilmore
Dan Issel
Paul Westphal
Bobby Dandridge
Dave Bing
Gail Goodrich
Bob Lanier

23 of them in all, more than any other decade, meanwhile your most competitive era has

Earvin "Magic" Johnson
Larry Bird
Moses Malone
Isiah Thomas
Kevin McHale
James Worthy
Dennis Johnson
Dominique Wilkins
Bernard King
Robert Parish
Alex English
Adrian Dantley
Sidney Moncrief
Tom Chambers

just 14 the lowest of any decade since the 50 (which just 4 or 5 depending on whether Mikan is 40s or 50s). And this trend occurs across the board (that is the 70s always have more players in the top 50 or top 100 or top 150 rankings, usually substantially more), I use Simmons' because he makes clear how much he loves the 80s, and his listing is possibly the best known.

Oh and Kareem earned the '80 FMVP. And the Sixers (we're talking the '80 Sixers here right?) better than the the most dominant (not necessarily best, you can discuss expansion and eras etc) team ever (the '71 Bucks best Regular season SRS and POST ever, then a dominant run through the playoffs), really?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Once again another childish post and I think you might have some age on you? Constantly calling things ignorant but never coming up with substance or a real grown up counter. If something doesn't make sense go at it like Danko8 does. He's mature, knows how to debate, doesn't call names, comes back with at least something. I've repped him because of his demeanor.

I don't hate Kareem or Bird. Saying Bird came into the league with problems in the post season isn't hard to prove at all. Saying Magic came in with success in the post season is obvious. I have often said Bird had a great three year peak - one of the best. I have Kareem in my top 4 GOAT. When I asked you a simple question: Who was running the show or ship in LA? When did the show change, and who do you think had a winning way about them? Who made other players better - Kareem included. Who was the decision maker on the Lakers?

I predicted you would leave, not answer and come back acting childish because this is your consistent behavior. The option to grow up and debate is there. I doubt you will take it but it would be good for the board if you did.

You say the most ignorant things, things that only a little kid with no knowledge would say (Magic was a better defensive player than Bird, even much better lol) then think you're pretty smart or something while calling me childish...... :oldlol:

I said all that needed to be said, you keep coming with extremely ignorant arguments and don't even matter the rest, how can argue with someone like that?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Main point first, Kareem had better stats but he wasn't better? The largest area stats don't capture is D an Kareem held a huge edge there (despite his high number of steals Magic was worse than his boxscore on D, in 1983 he made Bob Ryan's All-Sieve (no D) team)


Then there's this

Really? The (then) five time MVP wasn't relevent (and he'd have had more if people hadn't have gotten tired of giving it to him. Seriously, tell me Dave Cowens was better in '73)?

The only area is the vague talk of "riding Magic's ship" which I'm going to assume means leadership.

Was Magic more convivial than Kareem? Clearly. And this means papers could build their stories around Magic.

Was Magics arrival a significant improvement for the Lakers. Again clearly. He represented a substantial improvement over giving substantial guard minutes to Lou Hudson and Jim Price. But remove Kareem and replace him with a center of that calibre and LA would have fell further than the win total in the high fourties that Kareem's '79 team had.

Who'd win what title with who is a parlour game peripheral to ranking of thre greats. But regarding the "Magic gets three/four rings" theory. The first half of the 70s were highly competitive, and Kareem was magnificent on the Milwaukee title team, I'm not confident that Magic claims that title.

In the latter years of the decade it is true that there was greater parity and you didn't need to be so exceptional (at a team level) to win a title.


Aside from using terminology relating to the point guard position e.g. "running the show", to try and prove that Magic was somehow better, I'll answer the questions.

-Who was running the show or ship in LA? Buss, Sharman and West. Unless you mean who was playing point guard, in which case primarily Norm Nixon, sometimes Magic.
-When did the show change? 1979 when LA had two great players rather than one (doesn't make the one who arrived later the better one though).
-who do you think had a winning way about them? What on earth does this mean
-Who made other players better - Kareem included. No one. Wilkes shot better with Magic, but then Nixon shot worse. And if you're going to credit Kareem playing well to Magic then of course you're going to conclude Magic was more important. Not to say Magic didn't help Kareem at all but that influence would be very much marginal. Kareem's advanced stats are very similar across the two years.
Who was the decision maker? Again this is really a point guard based question. Nixon and Magic.

Was 70s Kareem better than 80s Kareem. Yes but that's not the bar. Did 70s Kareem happen to win a lot of titles? No. But in which years should he have.

In '79 was he responsible for the gap between "his" guards' productivity and that of DJ and Gus Williams?

In '77 is it his fault that Kermit Washington got suspended and the second best player on the team in the playoffs was Earl Tatum (who?).

In '76 he's MVP, leads the league in every advanced metric, and it's his fault the Lakers (who gutted their team to get him) don't make the playoffs.

In '75 he was injured but still when playing meant the difference between a .5303 (35-31) team and .1875 (3-13) team. Is boosting his teams win percentage by 34.28%. A substantially greater difference than Magic made upon his arrival (albeit there was significant other roster turnover).

Also your dismissal of Phil Smith, Butch Beard, Clifford Ray, Jeff Mullins and George Johnson as "no help at all" is bizzare, disrespectful and ahistorical. Were they weak champions? Yes. But were they better the remenants of the Bucks? Yes, clearly so.

Only in '78 in 3 game mini-series can you apportion any substantial chunk of the blame on Jabbar. So he had a poor (by his standards) 3 games (that is to say 27/13.7/3.7 with 4 bpg, but a somewhat dissapointing inability to get to the line). Still that team wasn't going anywhere with Magic in Jabbar's place either.

What Magic's shooting percentage, relative to Bird's, has to do with anything is beyond me, though through '86 it must be noted they had very different roles. Bird being the centrepoint of his offense, whilst Magic's usage was only slightly above average.

That Magic and Jabbar were a sub-optimal pairing may be true, and even that Magic may have felt the brunt of that statistically. Then again playing with a (for much of the 80s) less than dominant rebounder (and LA never had notable PFs) helped inflate Magics rebounds.

Regarding the comment (having already noted that winning in the early 70s meant going through some legendary teams).

Note how often the mid to late 80s Lakers had one of the easiest 30 schedules in history. The Lakers practically had a bye into the finals whilst some combination of Boston, Philly, Milwaukee and Detroit slugged it out in the East.

The notion that the fading of Jabbar, rather than the emergence of younger players Worthy and Scott (and indeed Magic, partly by role, partly just improvement) is what helped LAs offense become even better is laughable, that he was "a witness" even more so.

:applause: :applause:


Once again Lazeruss/Pointguard (same dude) OWNED, by yet another user.



Bill Simmons is a huge 80s basketball fan. Yet even in his Book of Basketball he has substantially more 70s players in his top 96 player than 80s

Here's his 70s guys
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
John Havlicek
Julius Erving
Rick Barry
Bill Walton
Dave Cowens
Walt Frazier
George Gervin
Wes Unseld
Billy Cunningham
Elvin Hayes
Nate Archibald
Bob McAdoo
Earl Monroe
Pete Maravich
David Thompson
Artis Gilmore
Dan Issel
Paul Westphal
Bobby Dandridge
Dave Bing
Gail Goodrich
Bob Lanier

23 of them in all, more than any other decade, meanwhile your most competitive era has

Earvin "Magic" Johnson
Larry Bird
Moses Malone
Isiah Thomas
Kevin McHale
James Worthy
Dennis Johnson
Dominique Wilkins
Bernard King
Robert Parish
Alex English
Adrian Dantley
Sidney Moncrief
Tom Chambers

just 14 the lowest of any decade since the 50 (which just 4 or 5 depending on whether Mikan is 40s or 50s). And this trend occurs across the board (that is the 70s always have more players in the top 50 or top 100 or top 150 rankings, usually substantially more), I use Simmons' because he makes clear how much he loves the 80s, and his listing is possibly the best known.

Oh and Kareem earned the '80 FMVP. And the Sixers (we're talking the '80 Sixers here right?) better than the the most dominant (not necessarily best, you can discuss expansion and eras etc) team ever (the '71 Bucks best Regular season SRS and POST ever, then a dominant run through the playoffs), really?

I believe the 80s is the best decade, all-in-all, but to call the 70s the weakest or a weak decade is just dumb. Agree with everything :applause: .

[LAZERUSS]

Main point first, Kareem had better stats but he wasn't better? The largest area stats don't capture is D an Kareem held a huge edge there (despite his high number of steals Magic was worse than his boxscore on D, in 1983 he made Bob Ryan's All-Sieve (no D) team)


Then there's this

Really? The (then) five time MVP wasn't relevent (and he'd have had more if people hadn't have gotten tired of giving it to him. Seriously, tell me Dave Cowens was better in '73)?

The only area is the vague talk of "riding Magic's ship" which I'm going to assume means leadership.

Was Magic more convivial than Kareem? Clearly. And this means papers could build their stories around Magic.

Was Magics arrival a significant improvement for the Lakers. Again clearly. He represented a substantial improvement over giving substantial guard minutes to Lou Hudson and Jim Price. But remove Kareem and replace him with a center of that calibre and LA would have fell further than the win total in the high fourties that Kareem's '79 team had.

Who'd win what title with who is a parlour game peripheral to ranking of thre greats. But regarding the "Magic gets three/four rings" theory. The first half of the 70s were highly competitive, and Kareem was magnificent on the Milwaukee title team, I'm not confident that Magic claims that title.

In the latter years of the decade it is true that there was greater parity and you didn't need to be so exceptional (at a team level) to win a title.


Aside from using terminology relating to the point guard position e.g. "running the show", to try and prove that Magic was somehow better, I'll answer the questions.

-Who was running the show or ship in LA? Buss, Sharman and West. Unless you mean who was playing point guard, in which case primarily Norm Nixon, sometimes Magic.
-When did the show change? 1979 when LA had two great players rather than one (doesn't make the one who arrived later the better one though).
-who do you think had a winning way about them? What on earth does this mean
-Who made other players better - Kareem included. No one. Wilkes shot better with Magic, but then Nixon shot worse. And if you're going to credit Kareem playing well to Magic then of course you're going to conclude Magic was more important. Not to say Magic didn't help Kareem at all but that influence would be very much marginal. Kareem's advanced stats are very similar across the two years.
Who was the decision maker? Again this is really a point guard based question. Nixon and Magic.

Was 70s Kareem better than 80s Kareem. Yes but that's not the bar. Did 70s Kareem happen to win a lot of titles? No. But in which years should he have.

In '79 was he responsible for the gap between "his" guards' productivity and that of DJ and Gus Williams?

In '77 is it his fault that Kermit Washington got suspended and the second best player on the team in the playoffs was Earl Tatum (who?).

In '76 he's MVP, leads the league in every advanced metric, and it's his fault the Lakers (who gutted their team to get him) don't make the playoffs.

In '75 he was injured but still when playing meant the difference between a .5303 (35-31) team and .1875 (3-13) team. Is boosting his teams win percentage by 34.28%. A substantially greater difference than Magic made upon his arrival (albeit there was significant other roster turnover).

Also your dismissal of Phil Smith, Butch Beard, Clifford Ray, Jeff Mullins and George Johnson as "no help at all" is bizzare, disrespectful and ahistorical. Were they weak champions? Yes. But were they better the remenants of the Bucks? Yes, clearly so.

Only in '78 in 3 game mini-series can you apportion any substantial chunk of the blame on Jabbar. So he had a poor (by his standards) 3 games (that is to say 27/13.7/3.7 with 4 bpg, but a somewhat dissapointing inability to get to the line). Still that team wasn't going anywhere with Magic in Jabbar's place either.

What Magic's shooting percentage, relative to Bird's, has to do with anything is beyond me, though through '86 it must be noted they had very different roles. Bird being the centrepoint of his offense, whilst Magic's usage was only slightly above average.

That Magic and Jabbar were a sub-optimal pairing may be true, and even that Magic may have felt the brunt of that statistically. Then again playing with a (for much of the 80s) less than dominant rebounder (and LA never had notable PFs) helped inflate Magics rebounds.

Regarding the comment (having already noted that winning in the early 70s meant going through some legendary teams).

Note how often the mid to late 80s Lakers had one of the easiest 30 schedules in history. The Lakers practically had a bye into the finals whilst some combination of Boston, Philly, Milwaukee and Detroit slugged it out in the East.

The notion that the fading of Jabbar, rather than the emergence of younger players Worthy and Scott (and indeed Magic, partly by role, partly just improvement) is what helped LAs offense become even better is laughable, that he was "a witness" even more so.

Excellent post, but yes, I will give you my two cents.

73-74. KAJ played brilliantly in the Finals (BTW, Oscar played poorly in game one, and in game seven, but was very good the rest of that series.) BUT, in the biggest game of his season, game seven of the Finals, and on his home floor, he was outplayed by a foul-plagued Cowens, in a blowout loss.

His 74-75 season. Can you name their backup center, how many games he played, and his numbers? The fact was, Milwaukee, like the great Russell teams, and the great Wilt teams, generally didn't bother with a backup (although Russell did have Embry and even Lovellete at times.)

77-78. Granted, you already acknowledged that KAJ played (realtively) poorly in that post-season (BTW, Marvin Webster gave him all he could handle in that first round.) But clearly, the Lakers pinned their hopes on a healthy KAJ, and when he was out, they went 8-12. But again, absolutely ZERO backup.

Do you honestly believe that in those two seasons, that those two organizations would have had a washed up (and never-was) Wesley and then NO ONE, playing center?


75-76. Again, I don't have a problem with those that argue that KAJ had poor teammates. BUT, I do have a problem with his relatively poor play. You give him credit for his advanced metrics, but I would argue, in a league that was not blessed with great centers, that KAJ SHOULD have done more. Where were his 71-72 stats, including mpg? I have seen posters rip Chamberlain for his 62-63 season, but the reality was, Chamberlain did far more for his inept roster, than a '76 Kareem did for his.

78-79. KAJ had the best roster in the league. That they struggled in the playoffs was certainly not all his fault. But again, with that edge in talent, there was really no excuse for underachieving on the levels that that team did.

And once again, the 74-75, 76-77, 77-78, and even 78-79 champions were not great teams. Granted, the 76-77 Blazers did become a great team the next year, but they were not one in 76-77. And again, with Kareem's massive edge in talent in 77-78 and 78-79, it was a massive letdown to get blown out by two Sonics teams that were nowhere near as talented.

79-80. Magic was THE difference in the Lakers...ESPECIALLY in the post-season. The Lakers demolished the Sonics that season, and then waltzed thru the Finals. Do they win the title without KAJ? Of course not. But they had no chance without Magic. And again, Magic showed that he was capable of taking over games if needed. If anything, magic deferred to KAJ way too much in the early 80's.

From 81-82, it was MAGIC who was their BEST player. The fact that he was outvoting Kareem in the MVP balloting EVERY season from that point on, is all anyone needs to know. And he was their best player in that post-season, and Finals, by a solid margin. Again, McAdoo was every bit as productive as KAJ in that post-season, and in considerably less minutes. It would appear that he would have been capable of doing more without KAJ in the lineup for the bulk of the minutes.

Magic wa sgenerally more efficient, a better rebounder, and was the engineer of their offense from 81-82 on.

And I stand by my take that the '86-87 Lakers had enough talent to win the title without KAJ. And they could have plugged in just about anybody in Kareem's spot in the 87-88 championship run, and done at least as well. I honestly believe that Magic would have won rings in those years without KAJ, and certainly in 87-88.

[Pointguard]

Main point first, Kareem had better stats but he wasn't better? The largest area stats don't capture is D an Kareem held a huge edge there (despite his high number of steals Magic was worse than his boxscore on D, in 1983 he made Bob Ryan's All-Sieve (no D) team)
Hey Owl,
My breaking the post down isn't meant to be rude or anything. Just a clearer way to say things.

Stats don't capture who is primarily controlling the game:
Who is the primary decision maker.
Who is making the adjustments on the floor.
Who is controlling pace.
Who is making easy baskets for others and making teammates better.
Who is highlighting other players
Who is the main creator on the floor.
Who makes the second and third options effective.
Who makes sure execution is top notch. etc.


Really? The (then) five time MVP wasn't relevent (and he'd have had more if people hadn't have gotten tired of giving it to him. Seriously, tell me Dave Cowens was better in '73)?
Kareem made himself relevant. Magic made him relevant to the team and wins.


Who'd win what title with who is a parlour game peripheral to ranking of thre greats. But regarding the "Magic gets three/four rings" theory. The first half of the 70s were highly competitive, and Kareem was magnificent on the Milwaukee title team, I'm not confident that Magic claims that title.
I agree the 60's guys made the early part of the 70's competitive.

Magic was always a winner. To me only three players seemingly had a super relationship with winning: Russell, Magic and Duncan. Magic, moreso than any other player, made others better/motivated/team oriented and put everybody on the same page.



Aside from using terminology relating to the point guard position e.g. "running the show", to try and prove that Magic was somehow better, I'll answer the questions.

-Who was running the show or ship in LA? Buss, Sharman and West. Unless you mean who was playing point guard, in which case primarily Norm Nixon, sometimes Magic.
Exactly, the guys who turned the franchise over to Magic or gave him the obvious franchise contract. But I meant on the playing floor.


-When did the show change? 1979 when LA had two great players rather than one (doesn't make the one who arrived later the better one though).
When Magic arrived. Can you describe Kareem's attitude, play and team camaraderie the previous two years?


-Who made other players better - Kareem included. No one. Wilkes shot better with Magic, but then Nixon shot worse. And if you're going to credit Kareem playing well to Magic then of course you're going to conclude Magic was more important. Not to say Magic didn't help Kareem at all but that influence would be very much marginal. Kareem's advanced stats are very similar across the two years.
Magic often picked who could win MVP for allstar games or finals, highlight Laker players on their birthdays or when their parents came (I remember Kurt Rambis getting 24 for his parents - I don't know if any other player could do that), get teammates easy buckets, feed the post better than any player, keep a hot hand fed, highlight a player that wasn't involved before, get a cold shooter a layup to warm them up, get the crowd roaring behind the team, keep a balance between two great post up players etc. Very few players ever played at this level. Sorry for the folks who missed this.


In '79 was he responsible for the gap between "his" guards' productivity and that of DJ and Gus Williams?
I tend to see it as a center oriented league back then. Like expecting to see Demarcus Cousins blowing away Lebron or Durant in a series now. Just not likely to happen.


In '77 is it his fault that Kermit Washington got suspended and the second best player on the team in the playoffs was Earl Tatum (who?).
Barry did it two years earlier.


In '76 he's MVP, leads the league in every advanced metric, and it's his fault the Lakers (who gutted their team to get him) don't make the playoffs.
Best player for sure but all a winner can ask for is an opportunity.


Also your dismissal of Phil Smith, Butch Beard, Clifford Ray, Jeff Mullins and George Johnson as "no help at all" is bizzare, disrespectful and ahistorical. Were they weak champions? Yes. But were they better the remenants of the Bucks? Yes, clearly so.
Its not like we ever bring their names up in any conversations. They weren't giant obstacles or exhibiting a mountain of resistance. Barry saw an opportunity and he took it.


Only in '78 in 3 game mini-series can you apportion any substantial chunk of the blame on Jabbar. So he had a poor (by his standards) 3 games (that is to say 27/13.7/3.7 with 4 bpg, but a somewhat dissapointing inability to get to the line). Still that team wasn't going anywhere with Magic in Jabbar's place either.
I don't mind an occasional lapse. That's ok. I have Kareem as an alltime great. I don't think he had a relationship with winning like Magic, Duncan and Russell. I don't think Kareem was a loser either.


What Magic's shooting percentage, relative to Bird's, has to do with anything is beyond me, though through '86 it must be noted they had very different roles. Bird being the centrepoint of his offense, whilst Magic's usage was only slightly above average.

Magic (shooting percentage is proof) had great judgment and an incredible knack of knowing when to step up. Magic could have scored more but took sacrifices for the team. The Lakers could adjust to most styles because of Magic's ability to morph into different types of players, ability to highlight half court or running game, Kareem or James, Scott or Cooper while keeping Rambis active.



The notion that the fading of Jabbar, rather than the emergence of younger players Worthy and Scott (and indeed Magic, partly by role, partly just improvement) is what helped LAs offense become even better is laughable, that he was "a witness" even more so.
Haha, I was joking about the witness part. But watching Magic was great as he controlled way more dynamics than any player before or after him. And a lot of people didn't even know what they were watching. As a coach and former point guard he brings to light dimensions of the game that you can't even begin to show in other players.

[Pointguard]

You say the most ignorant things, things that only a little kid with no knowledge would say (Magic was a better defensive player than Bird, even much better lol) then think you're pretty smart or something while calling me childish...... :oldlol:

I said all that needed to be said, you keep coming with extremely ignorant arguments and don't even matter the rest, how can argue with someone like that?
I said, if you consider pace, Magic was the better defender. But you have to know what that is. When Magic ran Boston into the ground, Boston's perimeter players shot 30% in game 7 seven because they were exhausted playing Magic's pace. Magic caused two HOF's including the great Bird to shoot like complete garbage because he had them play at a pace they couldn't match. The guys in charge of containing him shot less than 20% 6 for 31 and DJ was a very clutch player. Please show me something more impressive in Bird's defensive career. But you have no chance of understanding the concept of pace or you wouldn't speak as foul as you do.

[Pointguard]

Bill Simmons is a huge 80s basketball fan. Yet even in his Book of Basketball he has substantially more 70s players in his top 96 player than 80s

Here's his 70s guys
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
John Havlicek
Julius Erving
Rick Barry
Bill Walton
Dave Cowens
Walt Frazier
George Gervin
Wes Unseld
Billy Cunningham
Elvin Hayes
Nate Archibald
Bob McAdoo
Earl Monroe
Pete Maravich
David Thompson
Artis Gilmore
Dan Issel
Paul Westphal
Bobby Dandridge
Dave Bing
Gail Goodrich
Bob Lanier

23 of them in all, more than any other decade, meanwhile your most competitive era has

Earvin "Magic" Johnson
Larry Bird
Moses Malone
Isiah Thomas
Kevin McHale
James Worthy
Dennis Johnson
Dominique Wilkins
Bernard King
Robert Parish
Alex English
Adrian Dantley
Sidney Moncrief
Tom Chambers

just 14 the lowest of any decade since the 50 (which just 4 or 5 depending on whether Mikan is 40s or 50s). And this trend occurs across the board (that is the 70s always have more players in the top 50 or top 100 or top 150 rankings, usually substantially more), I use Simmons' because he makes clear how much he loves the 80s, and his listing is possibly the best known.

Oh and Kareem earned the '80 FMVP. And the Sixers (we're talking the '80 Sixers here right?) better than the the most dominant (not necessarily best, you can discuss expansion and eras etc) team ever (the '71 Bucks best Regular season SRS and POST ever, then a dominant run through the playoffs), really?

I think people who grow up in a certain era think their era is the best. I really dislike Simmons but he is knowledgeable about certain things. He's super agenda motivated most of the time.

I don't have any of those guys on that 70's list as a guy that stands out as a very great winner, but I do see winners in Cowens and Frazier. Hondo comes from the tradition but Cowens seems more the imputus in the 70's. Walton was hurt too much. Barry had a breakthrough year but wasn't even shooting consistent that year. Doc's imprint is more in the 80's. But to keep it simple I just think 74 to 79 were great years to crack the case. Maurice Lucas, Gus Williams, past prime Hayes and Barry were able to do it without great teams and few people know know who they are. To ask it of Kareem isn't far fetched.

[LAZERUSS]

I don't think anyone would contest against Moses getting the best of Kareem in their H2H matchups, most of the times - doesn't really extend to the level you're taking it though - but Kareem's a top3 player of all-time, a 6x champion, a 6x MVP, a 2x FMVP (should've gotten one in 1980 too), the leading all-time scorer, almost 20 years playing at high level, didn't have a sudden considerable decline when he was still young, would've walked away with like 3 dpoy's had there been the award.... Moses, although definitely a top15 all-time player, can't make those claims or that close. So take those H2H's for what they are...

:facepalm Just because Wilt was still active around those years right? :rolleyes:
Stop with that bullshit, Kareem's absolute peak was around 1977, when he had refined the rougher parts of his game, was still athletic, had higher IQ and had learned the ropes plus put on some weight to deal with the bigger centers because he was skinny for that before.
And his prime lasted until around 1981. Still pretty good afterwards.

You just mad that most people put Kareem ahead of Wilt, then resort to those types of arguments.
Just stupid to discredit (hate on) a certain player to prop-up (overrate) another, and I like Wilt more than Kareem.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Youtube has footage of Kareem (Alcindor) in high school, college, and then in 69-70 and 70-71. He was FAR quicker, and I mean by FAR quicker in those years than even by 71-72. Hell, there is footage of him covering the entire half court defensively in his very first NBA game. BTW, per minute played, and considering his post-season competition, his greatest all-around season came in his SECOND year. The numbers do NOT lie.

He was still athletic up until the late 70's, but his shot lacked the elevation that he had earlier in his career (and yes, Chamberlain was routinely blocking it back then.) He became a more selective shooter, but less-and-less of a rebounder. By the early 80's he was nothing more than an ordinary rebounder. And of course, from nearly day one, Moses was just pounding him on the glass.

In his first three seasons in the league, he abused just about everyone...even Wilt at times (although, again, this was NOWHERE NEAR a prime Chamberlain.) Only Nate was outplaying him at times (in the '71-72 WCF's to be sure.) KAJ was dumping 40 and 50 on everyone else.

But, as the 70's rolled along, he DECLINED. In virtually everything. By the mid-70's, Lanier and Cowens had closed the gap considerably. And to be honest, McAdoo was his equal, and a better scorer even in their H2H's, in the mid-70's. And even Gilmore was giving him all he could handle (including blocking the sky-hook.)

And by the late 70's, Moses came along and just bitch-slapped him from that point on. Moses was the best player in the league from '78-79 thru 82-83, and don't let KAJ's MVP season of 79-80 fool you (when, of course, MAGIC came along.)

A PEAK Kareem was playing from the mid-point of his rookie season, 69-70, thru the entire 70-71 regular and post-seasons, and then the entire 71-72 regular season. He was badly outplayed by Nate in that seasons playoffs, and then reduced to a shot-jacking brick-layer by an old Wilt in the WCF's.

From that point on, he DECLINED...

[dankok8]

Top ten GOAT list for most people
Russell, Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Oscar, Lebron, West, M Malone, Petitt, Mikan.
Which era is represented the least?

Then 50 best players list:
Unseld, Frazier, Monroe, Hondo, Hayes, Cunningham, Cowens, Bing, Walton

Reed, Lucas and Lenny Wilkins are moreso 60's players.

Easily the weakest representation of eras. Safe to say Walton (great peak but doesn't have the 7 usual required very good years), Unseld, Cunningham, Cowens and Bing are not going to last long. Frazier, Monroe and Hondo are the only three entrenched in the top 40. And are far below the top three of every other era. Cowens/Hondo and Fazier/Monroe played and won together, however they weren't dynasties.


Kareem, Erving, Moses, Walton, and West are all top 20 in terms of peaks.

Unseld, Hayes, Cowens, Barry. Hondo, Reed, and Frazier are all consensus top 50 players on top of above. Then add Thurmond, Maravich Tiny, McAdoo etc as arguable but all 4 had insane peaks in the 70's.

I don't want to keep doing this. Trust me the 70's hold their weight in talent!


You say the 70's had the highest concentration of talent per team but somehow they amazingly had no dynasties? Not one team that consistently was the top contender more than two years. Who was Barry's help? Past prime Dandridge and Hayes? Maurice Lucas and Walton is ok but their efficiency wasn't good at all, all year long. Gus Williams and DJ??? The first three years of the decade had dynasties Boston, the Knicks, Lakers and Bucks. But its dead after that and incorrect to try to characterize it as the best concentration of talent outside of the 80's.

The talent was more evenly distributed. The 80's had a couple of monster stacked teams and the rest was mediocre. In the 70's a lot of teams were very good.

Honestly today's era is kind of like that in terms of balance. You have about 10 teams minimum in the league now that are talented enough to win it all.


Kareem's talent level was vastly superior to most players for the most of the 70's. He won six MVP's. He was on a different level. Gus Williams, Maurice Lucas, Elvin Hayes and Barry were not towering talents when they did it and their teams weren't great. And there were no dynasties at those times. This was the time to do it. Guys few people know were doing it without great talent around them. Kareem was on a different level than these guys. Magic would have done more winning wise in the 70's.


Kareem didn't have a single all-star teammate from 73-74 until 78-79... not an All-NBA defender teammate. On top of that in the two years that his teams could have realistically made a push ('74 and '77) they were totally decimated by injuries and ran into all-time great squads.

If you don't believe me about the 77-78 and 78-79 look up their rebounding margins on BRef. Kareem averaged more rebounds in those years than in 79-80 yet his teams were atrocious on the glass. Maybe because they had two other 6'6'' guys in the frontcourt one of whom wouldn't rebound (Dantley)?


I never said he was always unmotivated and you know that. His rebounding numbers are indicative of something, his not hustling upcourt is indicative of something, and his NBA history is definitely very different after he joins Magic. If you think this is unfounded tell me the better story?

Kareem was top 5 in rebounding every year in his prime. Even has a rebounding title in '76. He also has at least 4 or 5 DPOY worthy years.


Magic has the best turnovers you can make. Magic played the game in a novel way. His passes were one step ahead of where his teammates usually got them. Magic played a risky game to get more out of his players. Kareem never looked more integrated into a team and Wilkes fitted like a glove. The team capitalized on the fast pace of the game and got a ton load of easy baskets. Magic controlled the pace, kept the team on the same page, plugged in many holes, and inspired his teammates. Kareem scored, rebounded and played good defense. They needed both guys one way or the other.


Ok sure but you can't say Magic in 79-80 and 80-81 was as good as Kareem.


The Sixers were better than any team in Kareem's very long history.

Wait what? I don't know that you're trying to say here.

[dankok8]

Anyways both La Frescobaldi and Owl just killed it in the posts above.



The 1981-82 Lakers were an offensive juggernaut with a nightmare of great scorers. KAJ didn't need to dominate scoring as much as Nixon, Wilkes, Mcadoo, and Magic provided a lot of scoring. But believe me as a Sixer fan, we knew KAJ was the biggest nightmare of all. Dawkins remarked many years later that he had dreams of KAJ shooting one hook shot after another as he would wake up from a nightmare.

But you rare right, KAJ could not have won without Magic, but without KAJ, the Lakers would not even have made it to the Finals. Magic simply had not developed into the type of player he would become sometime in the mid 80s, when he was clearly the Lakers best player.

This is correct. In the half court Kareem was their 1st option by far in the early 80's. Philly was scared of Kareem as was everyone else... In the '82 Finals the Lakers ran a balanced offense and Kareem played very few minutes in two games anyways because they were blowouts.

I've seen much of that series and he played amazingly well on defense (his 3.2 bpg don't even do him justice) and he was often double and triple teamed on offense. The enormous attention the defense was giving him is no surprise considering he averaged 33.5 points, 14.5 rebounds, 3.0 assists, and 5.0 blocks on 64% shooting on Philly in the regular season. :bowdown:

[Pointguard]

Anyways both La Frescobaldi and Owl just killed it in the posts above.



This is correct. In the half court Kareem was their 1st option by far in the early 80's. Philly was scared of Kareem as was everyone else... In the '82 Finals the Lakers ran a balanced offense and Kareem played very few minutes in two games anyways because they were blowouts.

I've seen much of that series and he played amazingly well on defense (his 3.2 bpg don't even do him justice) and he was often double and triple teamed on offense. The enormous attention the defense was giving him is no surprise considering he averaged 33.5 points, 14.5 rebounds, 3.0 assists, and 5.0 blocks on 64% shooting on Philly in the regular season. :bowdown:

This definitely proves my point about Magic making KAJ relevant to the team and wins. Here is Philly with one of best defensive teams ever at this time, saying they had no answer for Kareem. Yet when a young, sprite, energetic, multiple moves, even bouncy Kareem in his prime and peak was answered for almost every year in the 70"s. And this is with a dearth of great defensive teams after 74. The shot was unstoppable but the team was stopped almost all the time.

But to suggest that Philly had an answer for Magic is a bit crazier. Not only could magic go into different positions and dominate but in 82 Magic exhibited one of the best dissections of a great defense ever in a team sport by a player. The great thing about great defenses is that it's a constant... Except when they get confused and directionless. Magic's mayhem had Philly's defense had them totally confused on its priorities in a big way in at least two of those games.

[La Frescobaldi]

This definitely proves my point about Magic making KAJ relevant to the team and wins. Here is Philly with one of best defensive teams ever at this time, saying they had no answer for Kareem. Yet when a young, sprite, energetic, multiple moves, even bouncy Kareem in his prime and peak was answered for almost every year in the 70"s. And this is with a dearth of great defensive teams after 74. The shot was unstoppable but the team was stopped almost all the time.

But to suggest that Philly had an answer for Magic is a bit crazier. Not only could magic go into different positions and dominate but in 82 Magic exhibited one of the best dissections of a great defense ever in a team sport by a player. The great thing about great defenses is that it's a constant... Except when they get confused and directionless. Magic's mayhem had Philly's defense had them totally confused on its priorities in a big way in at least two of those games.

There is no doubt Magic Johnson was ferocious in '82. He was performing at an etherial place that we've seen very very few times in history. That whole season was a work of art.