Revisiting : Roy Hibbert and Brook Lopez [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

veilside23

12-11-2013, 03:17 AM

before we start talking trash ... this is not to ask who would you pick but lets just enjoy it while it lasts...

Brook Lopez post game is money :banana:

Hibbert too plus defense ...

I know they are far from each other but if only lopez can play defense it would be a thing of old school ball when they start backing down each from end to end

lopez takes over

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs7BBBm4-vQ

1:46 thats some timmy D moves...

hibbert monster game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVEvXkCD8-Y

24 pts 10 reb 8 blocks :bowdown: :bowdown:

makes you wonder who is teaching this dude.. is rik smits helping ??

any pacer fans care to share some knowledge...
imagine if they can play together if you will have both that would be hard ...

I really hope lopez commits to defense better.

MichaelCheazley

12-11-2013, 04:05 AM

makes you wonder who is teaching this dude.. is rik smits helping ??

Its clearly Jeff Foster iving him private lessons

InspiredLebowski

12-11-2013, 04:12 AM

Dale Davis and JO are the only Pacers bigs in my cognizant Pacers fandom existence and neither are around anymore. Smits is still in the Indy burbs, his son's a big ass mid-major prospect, but Smits dreams of having Roy Hibbert's feet. And that tells you more about Smits and his bionic feet than anything.

Just for fun, put this Roy Hibbert on Indy's 2000 Finals team in place of Smits, hey...who knows. I may not still be hoping and wishing.

East_Stone_Ya

12-11-2013, 05:57 AM

Just for fun, put this Roy Hibbert on Indy's 2000 Finals team in place of Smits, hey...who knows. I may not still be hoping and wishing.

no you would be still hoping and wishing just because of this guy

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2008/0608/nba_g_oneal_580.jpg

The JKidd Kid

12-11-2013, 09:01 AM

Purch

12-11-2013, 10:06 AM

niko

12-11-2013, 10:08 AM

Opponents are shooting the lowest recent age on lay ups and dunks when Brook Lopez contests, than any other player in the league. If he could grab 10 boards a night he would easily be a top 10 player.
His impact though is not on the defensive end, his pick and roll defense is abysmal, when teams spread the floor (running teams) it's a big issue. Net fans got tired of his defense being ragged on so they started looking for stats that benefit him but if you take him away from the rim he's a liability.

Brook's offense though, tasty...:cheers:

Rik Smits' Hair

12-11-2013, 10:53 AM

Don't be dissin on Smits

ZHAKIDD532

12-11-2013, 11:01 AM

His impact though is not on the defensive end, his pick and roll defense is abysmal, when teams spread the floor (running teams) it's a big issue. Net fans got tired of his defense being ragged on so they started looking for stats that benefit him but if you take him away from the rim he's a liability.

Brook's offense though, tasty...:cheers:

A 7+ foot big man who's uncomfortable away from the basket?!? :eek: :eek: :eek:

I've never heard of such a thing...

Uncle Drew

12-11-2013, 11:06 AM

makes you wonder who is teaching this dude.. is rik smits helping ??

Hibbert worked out with Duncan this summer.

niko

12-11-2013, 11:07 AM

A 7+ foot big man who's uncomfortable away from the basket?!? :eek: :eek: :eek:

I've never heard of such a thing...
His pick and roll defense is hideous, that's not a part of being a defensive player? I'm not saying he sucks, but you can't be telling me he's a very good defender if one part of that equation is non existent.

BoutPractice

12-11-2013, 11:20 AM

They're the perfect example of today's NBA for centers. Currently the league has absolutely monstrous specialists at the position, but no real complete, two-way threat.

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 11:30 AM

Proof now.
Of players that contest 4 or more shots within 5 feet of the paint (57) players and play at least 25 minutes (sorry not gonna count players that play 15 minutes of foul ball) only Taj Gibson allows opponents shoot a lower percentage.

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefense.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=FGP_DEFEND_RIM&sortOrder=ASC&filters=FGA_DEFEND_RIM*G*4**MIN*G*25

He's basically ties with Hibbert for the #2 spot.

His paint/rim protection is excellent.. which is kind of a big thing for a center.

The team is also 12 points better of defense when he is on the court than off
102.9 defensive rating with him on the court vs. 115.3 when he is off the court.

http://www.82games.com/1314/13BKN15.HTM

Is he the overall defender that Hibbert is?
Of course not.
But his numbers would look even better he is played next to P.George, Stephenson, Hill and West (all good to excellent defenders)

Also, before Lopez missed some time this season Nets were #13 in defense..... dead last by the time he got back, Same thing last December. Top 10 before he went down, bottom 10, 7 games later when he got back.

Is he a good rebounder?
No.
But he helps the team rebound as he takes up space (7'1", 290) and boxes out.

The team has been a better rebounding team each season of his (except when he played 5 games) when he's been on the court as opposed to off. We were even the 2nd best rebounding team last year with him playing 30mpg and Evans 24mpg. So he clearly is not a liability on the glass for a team.

He is also the best offensive center in the game.

andremiller07

12-11-2013, 11:51 AM

He is also the best offensive center in the game.
He's the 2nd best, when you actually factor in passing ability and the ability to create for yourself from anywhere on the floor he's not even close to Cousins he also draws less fouls and averages less free throws/ can't lead a break or break down a defender off the bounce. He is more effecient but that's due to the fact he plays a different style and is not expected to create for himself as much as Cousins.

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 11:53 AM

He's the 2nd best
After who?
Cousins may be more talented but he's no where near as efficient.

andremiller07

12-11-2013, 12:01 PM

After who?
Cousins may be more talented but he's no where near as efficient.
Lebron is more efficient than Durrant and yet Durrant is widely recongnised as the best scorer in the NBA.

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 12:04 PM

Lebron is more efficient than Durrant and yet Durrant is widely recongnised as the best scorer in the NBA.
Hats because Cousins has the highest usage rate in the league. (35% vs 27%)
Lopez is better offensively.

Meanwhile they are identical in FTs' per 36 at 5.6 as Lopez is 82% at he line, Cousins 71%

Cousins is a better passer but turns it over 4.0 per 36, compared to 1.8 for Lopez.
Cousins fouls 5 per 36, Lopez 3.3

But the main difference... 58% FG for Lopez, 49% for Cousins.

Advanced wise Lopez has the edge in every offensive category:

Free Throw Rate
PER
TS%
EFG%
TOV%
Offensive rating
Offensive wins shares
WS/48

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=couside01&y1=2014&p2=lopezbr01&y2=2014

Almost every statistic supports Lopez is the better offensive player.
But.. I don't doubt Cousins has more untapped talent.

andremiller07

12-11-2013, 12:28 PM

Hats because Cousins has the highest usage rate in the league.
Lopez is better offensively.
He's got the highest usage rate cause he can create for everyone and you can ran an offence through him you can't with Lopez he's purely a finisher......To me Al Horford is the same and a better passer than both those guys and efficient as well so actually Horford may be the best offensive C seeing as you can ran an offense through him and he's efficient.

As far as your efficiency argument
Blake Griffin has a higher FG% than both Dirk and LMA does that make him a better offensive PF? No I don't think it does

Aaron Afflalo has a better FG% than Harden and Monta Ellis right now is he a better offensive SG? No I don't think so.

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 12:30 PM

He's got the highest usage rate cause he can create for everyone and you can ran an offence through him you can't with Lopez he's purely a finisher......To me Al Horford is the same and a better passer than both those guys and efficient as well so actually Horford may be the best offensive C seeing as you can ran an offense through him and he's efficient.

As far as your efficiency argument
Blake Griffin has a higher FG% than both Dirk and LMA does that make him a better offensive PF? No I don't think it does

Aaron Afflalo has a better FG% than Harden and Monta Ellis right now is he a better offensive SG? No I don't think so.
Please see my edited post above.

And you clearly don't know Lopez at all if you think you can't run an offense through him. You should talk about players you see more than twice a year.

Lopez is undeniable the better offensive player as nearly every stat supports that.

I'm glad Cousins is approaching some level of respectability on offense (it's about time) but there are better offensive centers.. such as Lopez.

andremiller07

12-11-2013, 12:32 PM

Please see my edited post above.

And you clearly don't know Lopez at all if you think you can't run an offense through him. You should talk about players you see more than twice a year.

Lopez is undeniable the better offensive player as nearly every stat supports that.
He's a more effective scorer he's not a better offensive player, offense takes into account everything on the offensive end not just finishing. Lopez is a beast at what he does but he does less on the offensive end and is more of a specialist rather than a all around offensive player is what I'm trying to say.

kurple

12-11-2013, 12:32 PM

After who?
Cousins may be more talented but he's no where near as efficient.
brook could average 30/15 and i still wouldnt call him the best center in the league, as long as the nets are losing as much as they have been

same with cousins

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 12:38 PM

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 12:38 PM

brook could average 30/15 and i still wouldnt call him the best center in the league, as long as the nets are losing as much as they have been

same with cousins
Who's calling him that?
I said he's the best offensive center.
And the Nets are not losing because of him (they won 49 games last year with less talent) it's injuries and coaching.

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 12:42 PM

He's a more effective scorer he's not a better offensive player, offense takes into account everything on the offensive end not just finishing. Lopez is a beast at what he does but he does less on the offensive end and is more of a specialist rather than a all around offensive player is what I'm trying to say.
Except no shred of statistical evidence supports that, not does your team record.
Did you know your team does better on offense AND defense when he is on the court?

niko

12-11-2013, 12:44 PM

Who's calling him that?
I said he's the best offensive center.
And the Nets are not losing because of him (they won 49 games last year with less talent) it's injuries and coaching.
And age and overrating of players. Garnett, Pierce and Terry haven't had the impact people thought partially because people thought their performance last year (the decline) was partially based on them becoming disinterested as opposed to older.

niko

12-11-2013, 12:46 PM

Hats because Cousins has the highest usage rate in the league. (35% vs 27%)
Lopez is better offensively.

Meanwhile they are identical in FTs' per 36 at 5.6 as Lopez is 82% at he line, Cousins 71%

Cousins is a better passer but turns it over 4.0 per 36, compared to 1.8 for Lopez.
Cousins fouls 5 per 36, Lopez 3.3

But the main difference... 58% FG for Lopez, 49% for Cousins.

Advanced wise Lopez has the edge in every offensive category:

Free Throw Rate
PER
TS%
EFG%
TOV%
Offensive rating
Offensive wins shares
WS/48

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=couside01&y1=2014&p2=lopezbr01&y2=2014

Almost every statistic supports Lopez is the better offensive player.
But.. I don't doubt Cousins has more untapped talent.
This is very true, which IMO is a strong plus in Lopez's favor.

andremiller07

12-11-2013, 12:49 PM

Lopez vs. Cousins

All these favor Lopez:

PER: 28.5 vs. 26.1
TS%: 64% vs. 58%
eFG%: 58% vs. 49%
Free Throw rate: .511 vs .447
FT%: 82% vs. 72%
TOV%: 8.4 vs. 14.1
ORTG: 125 vs. 104 (not close at all)
OWS: 1.9 vs 0.90
Points per shot:1.57 (#3 overall) vs.1.31 (#42 overall)

Other than PPG (because Cousins takes 4.6 FGA more per 36), Cousins is not better at any offensive statistic other than passing (offset by his terrible turnover percentage.
Statistics are what they are not going to argue those but it's not fantasy basketball, those just show Lopez is what he is a extremely efficient finisher he's not a complete offensive player.

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 12:49 PM

This is very true, which IMO is a strong plus in Lopez's favor.
A plus in Lopez' favor?
I don't see how.

I like Cousins.. might be my favorite non Net to watch and I'm glad he's finally putting it all together, but for the present, I'd much rather have Lopez on my team as he is the better offensive player and I trust his defense more as it's been very good to start the season.

That might change by the end of the season as Cousins is 2 years younger and is finally playing with real talent and coaching.

andremiller07

12-11-2013, 12:51 PM

Except no shred of statistical evidence supports that, not does your team record.
Did you know your team does better on offense AND defense when he is on the court?

Per NBA.com's lineup data, when Isaiah and Cousins are on the floor together they're outscoring opponents by 13.6 points per 100 possession. (H/T to Ball Don't Lie's Dan Devine for pointing out in his recap)

If they are better without him please explain why in every single of one our wins he's been our best player?:confusedshrug: That's why stats are misleading when he's off the floor it means it's our subs vs the other team's subs and we had Isaiah Thomas ripping up before Vasquez got traded.

The only games we lost badly which were 2-3 was when he played shit.

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 12:53 PM

Statistics are what they are not going to argue those but it's not fantasy basketball, those just show Lopez is what he is a extremely efficient finisher he's not a complete offensive player.
Why isn't he complete?
You can run a low post offense throw him, you can run the high post through him. He can score on the block or with a jumper/bank shot. He's can take his man off the dribble and finish in transition.
You do not know his game.

There is no statistical evidence.. basic or advanced to support your claim, other than you try to make up arbitrary arguments to support your player that of course cannot be debated because it's 100% opinion based your opinion of a player you watch every single game.

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 12:55 PM

Nope when him and Isaiah Thomas are on the floor together they outscore there opponents by an average of 13.5ppg

If they are better without him please explain why in every single of one our wins he's been our best player?:confusedshrug: That's why stats are misleading when he's off the floor it means it's our subs vs the other team's subs and we had Isaiah Thomas ripping up before Vasquez got traded.
Not when you beat the Nets he wasn't.

In a 21 point win, he only had a +1.
Vasquez and Thornton were much better than his 5-14 from the field and 6 fouls.

Do you even watch your own team?

niko

12-11-2013, 12:55 PM

A plus in Lopez' favor?
I don't see how.

I like Cousins.. might be my favorite non Net to watch and I'm glad he's finally putting it all together, but for the present, I'd much rather have Lopez on my team as he is the better offensive player and I trust his defense more as it's been very good to start the season.

That might change by the end of the season as Cousins is 2 years younger and is finally playing with real talent and coaching.
Lopez is improving, maximizing what he can do. He gets better and better. Cousins, even this year has some signs you don't like. Cousins may turn out to be better at some point but the way Lopez maximizes his talent says something about his character that bodes well for future growth.

To me, the thing the Nets need to watch is his conditioning, and his size (weight). It never gets talked about, but the screw in his foot was bent. If it snapped or bent too much, so would his foot and this season's story would have been pretty ****ed. They need to pace him properly, not saying he needs to sit back to back or anything stupid but make sure his minute limit doesn't get too heavy.

niko

12-11-2013, 12:59 PM

I know OP said don't compare, but who would you rather have, Lopez or Hibbert? The Knicks, it would be Hibbert (clearly) because of fit so I'm biased. But on the Nets, it's probably Lopez, no?

andremiller07

12-11-2013, 12:59 PM

Not when you beat the Nets he wasn't.

In a 21 point win, he only had a +1.
Vasquez and Thornton were much better than his 5-14 from the field and 6 fouls.

Do you even watch your own team?
OK other than the Nets game but even in the Nets game he did other things like get blocks and boards he did more than just score. The Nets were so pathetic we didn't really need him or Isaiah Thomas. Lopez in that game got most his points when the game was over and most of them were spoon feed of the pick n roll.

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 01:05 PM

OK other than the Nets game but even in the Nets game he did other things like get blocks and boards he did more than just score. The Nets were so pathetic we didn't really need him or Isaiah Thomas.
No.. we were much more pathetic back then, but team success is the last argument you want to use in Cousins' favor. Lopez still outplayed Sousins that night.

16/9/5 on (6-12) 3 fouls
vs.
15/9/3 on (5-14) 6 fouls

there is a reason we are something like 2-10 without Lopez the last 2 seasons.

Don't get IT reference considering he played and had a good game.. but OK.
(19/6/6 on 11 shots)

andremiller07

12-11-2013, 01:06 PM

No.. we were much more pathetic back then, but team success is the last argument you want to use in Cousins' favor. Lopez still outplayed Sousins that night.

16/9/5 on (6-12) 3 fouls
vs.
15/9/3 on (5-14) 6 fouls

there is a reason we are something like 2-10 without Lopez the last 2 seasons.

Don't get IT reference considering he played and had a good game.. but OK.
(19/6/6 on 11 shots)
Read the edit above Lopez get easy buckets when the heat was out of the game on easy pick n roll plays he was far far from impressive, when the game was there to be won he was no where to seen both were average no winner. Thomas scored most his points in the 4th as well after we had blown the Nets out not impressed.

Again another clear example of why you can't base everything on stats unless your playing fantasy basketball. There's to many things you can't measure on stats.

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 01:15 PM

Read the edit above Lopez get easy buckets when the heat was out of the game on easy pick n roll plays he was far far from impressive, when the game was there to be won he was no where to seen both were average no winner. Thomas scored most his points in the 4th as well after we had blown the Nets out not impressed.

Again another clear example of why you can't base everything on stats unless your playing fantasy basketball. There's to many things you can't measure on stats.
Which is why I've focused on advanced stats.

Cousins has 3 stats in his favor:
Usage - #1 in the league, Lopez is in he 40's

Thus Cousins PPG look better,but are much less efficient
Thus his assists look better, until you look at his his turnovers.
And then you see how bad his team is with him with such a high usage rate.

Every other stat.. advanced and basic shows Lopez is the better offense player.

Meanwhile your only argument is because you said so.

andremiller07

12-11-2013, 01:21 PM

Which is why I've focused on advanced stats.

Cousins has 3 stats in his favor:
Usage - #1 in the league, Lopez is in he 40's

Thus Cousins PPG look better,but are much less efficient
Thus his assists look better, until you look at his his turnovers.
And then you see how bad his team is with him with such a high usage rate.

Every other stat.. advanced and basic shows Lopez is the better offense player.

Meanwhile your only argument is because you said so.
Dude you just tried to tell me Isaiah Thomas had a great game against the Nets based on his stats when the majority of them came in junk time that's not cause I said so that's what occurred.

Again his usage is high cause he's the best player and he can create and off course he will have high turnovers when he's asked to do that, he doesn't have high IQ vets around him, the team is actually more than fine we have lost like 6-7 games by 5 points (3 of them to the Clippers) or less and most of the team's we have played other than the Nets and Pistons all have 500. or winning records right now. Plus we got a near identical record to the Nets how you going to bring that up?

Basketball is played on the court not in the advanced stat room

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 01:29 PM

Dude you just tried to tell me Isaiah Thomas had a great game against the Nets based on his stats when the majority of them came in junk time that's not cause I said so that's what occurred.

Again his usage is high cause he's the best player and he can create and off course he will have high turnovers when he's asked to do that, he doesn't have high IQ vets around him, the team is actually more than fine we have lost like 6-7 games by 5 points (3 of them to the Clippers) or less and most of the team's we have played other than the Nets and Pistons all have 500. or winning records right now. Plus we got a near identical record to the Nets how you going to bring that up?

Basketball is played on the court not in the advanced stat room
No.. I asked how are you gonna bring up "you can run and offense through Cousins" when there is no evidence it's successful. I know my team has sucked, but it's not Lopez.. it's injuries, (losing 3 of your top 6p layers most the season hurts), coaching, chemistry and underclothing play of PP and KG.

I also thought you meant you didn't have Thomas that game, sine you said you didn't need him that game.

Either way the things you say about not being able to run an offense through Brook makes no sense and makes me think you really don't know him or his game. Kidd specifically said Saturday before the Bucks game that's what they need to and will do... run the offense through Brook since the team is too slow (JJ, KG, Blatche the worst offenders.

Since then:
21-26 shooting, 56 points, 6 assists in 2 games.

We the fans have been clamoring for him to get more touches for years. He is the only chance we have as a team.

Like I said... Cousins is my second favorite non-Net to watch think he is probably the 2nd best offensive center in the game, but right now Lopez is significantly better. The fact your have evidence other than your option to back this tells is rather telling. Meanwhile stats are applied/quantified observation they are not meaning less at all and why so many teams are going in their direction.

andremiller07

12-11-2013, 01:36 PM

.
Either way the things you say about not being able to run an offense through Brook makes no sense and makes me think you really don't know him or his game. Kidd specifically said Saturday before the Bucks game that's what they need to and will do... run the offense through Brook since the team is too slow (JJ, KG, Blatche the worst offenders.

Since then:
21-26 shooting, 56 points, 6 assists in 2 games.

We the fans have been clamoring for him to get more touches for years. He is the only chance we have as a team.
OK we will see how that goes for them running the offence through Brook, should be interesting to see how both teams/players go with the recent changes (you got Deron back, we got some Gay dude).

Nets fan 93

12-11-2013, 01:55 PM

Lopez is 2nd in PER... Not for centers. He is behind only LeBron James

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 01:55 PM

OK we will see how that goes for them running the offence through Brook, should be interesting to see how both teams/players go with the recent changes (you got Deron back, we got some Gay dude).
What did you think of the Gay deal and specifically how it impacts Cousins?

moe94

12-11-2013, 02:38 PM

lol @ dude arguing Cousins is a better offensive C than Lopez. Let's dismiss all the stats that point towards me being wrong and just take my word on it.

ChuckOakley

12-11-2013, 02:59 PM

lol @ dude arguing Cousins is a better offensive C than Lopez. Let's dismiss all the stats that point towards me being wrong and just take my word on it.
He does have more talent than Lopez and is 2 years young.
Not really far fetched to think he will surpass him soon enough, but he needs to get down on turnovers and increase his efficient to do it. Having some real talent (Gay, D.Williams, I.Thomas, McLemore is a nice start) will help.

andremiller07

12-11-2013, 06:47 PM

What did you think of the Gay deal and specifically how it impacts Cousins?
It's really hard to say man, I'm hoping it be something similar to the Gay/Z-Bo situation but at the same time we are missing the elite passing of Marc Gasol from that equation.

The deal in itself is not bad both the deals we made we practically gave up Tyreke Evans (42million over 4 traded him for Vasquez)/John Salmons/Patterson and Hayes and turned it into Gay and Williams imo that's a fairly good deal factoring in most those guys were dead weight and Evans is injury prone.

I personally would have liked us to trade for Kyle Lowry instead and keep starting D-Will but I', hoping the coach who has turned around Travis Outlaw can do a similar thing for Rudy. In a ideal world it helps both of them since you can only really double one and I rather teams force Rudy Gay to beat us rather than John Salmons. But the biggest question is between Gay/IT/Cuz can they share the ball.

It's A VC3!!!

12-11-2013, 07:17 PM

Opponents are shooting the lowest recent age on lay ups and dunks when Brook Lopez contests, than any other player in the league. If he could grab 10 boards a night he would easily be a top 10 player.
That's the only defense Brook can play though. Rim Protection. He's the best rim protector in the league and layups and dunks are not easy to go in over him. He sucks on all of the other aspects such as help defense, P&R and scouting reports. Lets even bring up last night as an example. Sullinger to start the third got three open threes and made two because Brook didn't even put a hand up. The guy is a 33% three point shooter. That needs to be lodged in your head every game. If you at least put a hand up he won't make the three but you can't just leave him wide open because your defensively challenged and dare an NBA athlete to shoot three wide open jump shots. That's my little rant on Brook's defensive woes.