For the good of the NBA, shouldn't some of these teams stop tanking?

[Real Men Wear Green]

First, I'll acknowledge my biases so that we can hopefully not have them as the focus of the discussion. I am a Celtics fan. And I hate tanking. The two stances are not mutually exclusive as I don't have to like everything Ainge does. I do understand why the team was constructed the way it was this season and even agree that getting a higher draft pick will make the team better long term. I just don't like tanking in general because I think it cheapens the game. An ideal league has every team doing everything they can to win it all every season. But that's not how things work, and by trading the leadership and not pushing Rondo to come back early it's pretty evident that was Ainge's plan. Jeff Green is not supposed to be the caliber of player around whom you can build a division winner.

We all want our entitlements but no one wants to pay taxes, you know?

TL;DR. Now let's get to the point. With the Celtics as the focus because that's the tank I'm riding in.

Fortunately (?) for Ainge there are still 55+ games for Brooklyn or NY to turn their seasons around but it's hard to believe in either team at the moment. It may have happened in my lifetime but I cannot think of a division winner that had a losing record, and we're on pace to see that in the Atlantic with the Celtics sitting ugly at 11-14. Again: they traded the leadership. The coach was dealt for a pick and the vet leaders were dealt for draft picks and players the Nets didn't want. And it didn't work. Ainge has created a bad team that is not bad enough. If the majority of the EC continues to win at the same pace Ainge will have to somehow make the Celtics not just worse but much worse to have a shot at one of the NCAA's 4-6 players that are being hyped as future superstars (Parker, Wiggins, Randle, Smart, Embiid, whoever).

Question: How do you do that?

Without ordering Coach Stevens to intentionally lose, how do you mess up the roster even further for the sake of the future? The best healthy player is career 13.8 ppg Jeff Green, this season averaging 16.9 as of the writing of this topic. The whole roster is roleplayers except for Rajon Rondo, who will in theory make the team better when he returns. That's right, horror of horrors the Celtics could end the season with 40 wins. I'm sure the Pacers would deal Danny Granger a first and filler for Rondo and Green but isn't that just too blatant? Or, for those of you that disregard the need for a team to maintain some semblance of competitiveness, doesn't selling tickets/making money matter?

Stepping outside of the Cs, we have 12 losing teams in the EC. Of those 12, there are four teams I feel certain were designed to lose: Orlando, Toronto (currently conducting an absolute fire sale for Canadian native Wiggins), Philly and Boston. Utah is also tanking out West, but that's only one team in that conference. In a normal season, whow many teams tank, 1 or two? Not sure, but when you already had 6 or 7 teams in the East that were going to be bad on account of them being bad, that's going to be an awful lot of bad basketball.

Are you going to pay $200 for a couple good seats for you and your girl to watch Orlando play the Raptors? If you live in Miami and get to see 82 games of LeBron why bother shelling out $199 for all of these games with bad teams? If you live in Washington how much do you even care what happens in the regular season when you know your team has no chance? 99.999997% of bball fans predict a Pacer/Heat ECF (there are something like 30 Hawk fans, 4 of whom are really dumb).

Right now the NBA badly needs more competition, especially in the Eastern Conference. The Rose injury wasn't just a blow to the Bulls, it was a blow to the entire NBA as it robbed us all of a team that could at least compete with Miami and the Pacers, even if they wouldn't have won. The way the standings are now neither the Pacers nor the Heat wouldn't even have an entertaining series until the ECF. It is not good for the NBA to have an entire conference that is not worth paying attention to, and this is compounded by the fact people like me on the east coast have to stay up until 1am to watch good basketball.

It is extremely unlikely that any of the tanking teams reverse course and make some deals to compete in the present. It is extremely unlikely that Ainge or any other GM even reads this post. We'll have to live with what is going to be a bad season. I am aware that my whining solves nothing. I just wanted to vent. So to anyone that read this whole post: Thank you.

Parting thoughts: Darko, Bargnani, Bennett, Brown.

[mrpibb]

Well, I'm glad you got that out, but Utah isn't necessarily tanking.

[MetsPackers]

The funniest part is that NY and BK aren't even trying to tank. They don't even have any picks. Might end up being the worst division ever when its all said and done if neither of them turns it around. Has there ever been a division where not one team broke .500?

[Legends66NBA7]

I honestly don't see many moves after possibly shipping Lowry, even though every starter we have should be on the move.

As for more competition in the East... better wait for next or couple seasons in the future.

[joshwake]

Well, I'm glad you got that out, but Utah isn't necessarily tanking.
The team is not trying to lose games... I don't think that ever really happens where players intentionally lose games to get some star on their team with them. The management in Utah however, has clearly set this team up this year to lose a lot of games. That is tanking. Utah is tanking. It's fine, because almost every single franchise has done it at least once except for Utah.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Well, I'm glad you got that out, but Utah isn't necessarily tanking.
Who's their best player, Hayward? I could be wrong but I figure something like that only happens if you're intentionally losing.

[mrpibb]

Who's their best player, Hayward? I could be wrong but I figure something like that only happens if you're intentionally losing.

The idea is to see what the Jazz have in their young players. People have been clamoring for Favors and Kanter to start. That's basically what happened.

Who were the best free agents this summer? Howard? That would be pretty silly already having Favors and Kanter. So the front office delayed the year it will have salary cap space until next year, which is supposedly really good.


The team is not trying to lose games... I don't think that ever really happens where players intentionally lose games to get some star on their team with them. The management in Utah however, has clearly set this team up this year to lose a lot of games. That is tanking. Utah is tanking. It's fine, because almost every single franchise has done it at least once except for Utah.

Young teams lose, but what team could they have crafted that would make the playoffs? Are any good players being held back from playing?

We wanted to find out how the young guys would play. This year was the year to do it. If we win, awesome. If we lose, awesome.

But it's not tanking, which is deliberate.

[The JKidd Kid]

The Nets have clearly turned it around and are on track to reach .500 before the All Star break. Also, I think that if the Knicks get Tyson back and maybe make a trade, then they could potentially get back to the .500 mark by the end of the season.

[joshwake]

The idea is to see what the Jazz have in their young players. People have been clamoring for Favors and Kanter to start. That's basically what happened.

Who were the best free agents this summer? Howard? That would be pretty silly already having Favors and Kanter. So the front office delayed the year it will have salary cap space until next year, which is supposedly really good.



Young teams lose, but what team could they have crafted that would make the playoffs? Are any good players being held back from playing?

We wanted to find out how the young guys would play. This year was the year to do it. If we win, awesome. If we lose, awesome.

But it's not tanking, which is deliberate.
It's semantics really... Tanking our rebuilding. In many ways they are the same. Rebuilding is when the management designs the team in a way that they know will not win many games. Maybe it just feels like tanking because Utah has never really had a true rebuilding year since the first few years after they were moved to Utah. But relative to what we have seen other teams do in the past.... no Utah isn't "tanking". It is a smart move by management.

[mrpibb]

It's semantics really... Tanking our rebuilding. In many ways they are the same. Rebuilding is when the management designs the team in a way that they know will not win many games. Maybe it just feels like tanking because Utah has never really had a true rebuilding year since the first few years after they were moved to Utah. But relative to what we have seen other teams do in the past.... no Utah isn't "tanking". It is a smart move by management.

:cheers:

[Real Men Wear Green]

The idea is to see what the Jazz have in their young players. People have been clamoring for Favors and Kanter to start. That's basically what happened.

Who were the best free agents this summer? Howard? That would be pretty silly already having Favors and Kanter. So the front office delayed the year it will have salary cap space until next year, which is supposedly really good.
Did they go after Monta Ellis? Did they try to trade Big Al before he was a free agent, or sign and trade him over the offseason? Did they make any moves to improve? If all you do in the offseason is lose a guy that was arguably your best player and start some guys that some fans thought were being held back are you really trying to improve? And if you are not trying to improve, what are you really doing?

I'm not saying you have no point as it can be hard to obtain good players and I am aware of the inherent disadvantage Utah has in attracting free agents. But did they even try?

[mrpibb]

Did they go after Monta Ellis? Did they try to trade Big Al before he was a free agent, or sign and trade him over the offseason? Did they make any moves to improve? If all you do in the offseason is lose a guy that was arguably your best player and start some guys that some fans thought were being held back are you really trying to improve? And if you are not trying to improve, what are you really doing?

I'm not saying you have no point as it can be hard to obtain good players and I am aware of the inherent disadvantage Utah has in attracting free agents. But did they even try?

Who actually believed Monta Ellis would be part of a championship roster? Why would we sign Al or Millsap when we're trying to get Favors and Kanter playing time? Why would we sign good players at the expense of signing great players next year?

What you're suggesting makes sense, but it also mortgages the future. This is what you're asking for. Every league needs to have bad teams. When it's intentional it's glaring, but this is not intentional. It was going to happen.

We missed the playoffs last year, so we're trying something else. We didn't like what we saw, so we're trying something else.

[HylianNightmare]

but even if the tanking teams stop tanking they still suck no?

on the realz doe i can't believe big baby, aaron afflalo, rondo, gerald wallace all havent' been dealt

[I<3NBA]

relegation. end of tanking.

[ProfessorMurder]

but even if the tanking teams stop tanking they still suck no?

on the realz doe i can't believe big baby, aaron afflalo, rondo, gerald wallace all havent' been dealt

Nobody wants Gerald Wallace's contract. Big Baby and Rondo are coming off of injuries.

They should get all they can for Afflalo right now.

[steve]

Nobody wants Gerald Wallace's contract. Big Baby and Rondo are coming off of injuries.

They should get all they can for Afflalo right now.

Afflalo probably won't get until closer to he deadline. I think teams might be weary of his current production and see if it's going to hold up over a longer period of time.

[Genaro]

Well at least most bad teams are from the east and we should have a lot of east teams with high picks in a strog draft (like 2003), so there will be good teams in the east until 3 players from the top 5 decide to make a superteam together.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Who actually believed Monta Ellis would be part of a championship roster? Why would we sign Al or Millsap when we're trying to get Favors and Kanter playing time? Why would we sign good players at the expense of signing great players next year?

What you're suggesting makes sense, but it also mortgages the future. This is what you're asking for. Every league needs to have bad teams. When it's intentional it's glaring, but this is not intentional. It was going to happen.

We missed the playoffs last year, so we're trying something else. We didn't like what we saw, so we're trying something else.
I'm not saying there was no reason for Utah to rebuild. But what I hope you realize is that tanking can and in Utah's case is part of the rebuilding process for a lot of teams. It just doesn't seem to me that the Jazz did anything to improve in the offseason.

In the case of Ellis, he doesn't make Utah a Champ by himself (no one does) but he would have made the team better. In the right situation like most good players he could be part of a Championship formula, to answer your question.

And I'm not saying the players are coaches are part of the tank. That's almost never done, as far as I know. But when a team doesn't improve the roster, just let's talent walk and goes into a season with Gordon Hayward as the best player? That's how a front office tanks.

[Sarcastic]

There is nothing wrong with tanking. It's a perfectly acceptable strategy for teams to acquire new talent.

However if you want to get rid of tanking, then get rid of the draft. Force teams to win in order to attract players, rather than lose.

[Real Men Wear Green]

There is nothing wrong with tanking. It's a perfectly acceptable strategy for teams to acquire new talent. What's wrong with it is that it has left us with an entire conference that is irrelevant. When there isn't enough competitive, entertaining basketball the popularity of the league can take a hit. I am not saying that this will end the NBA with one bad season but we could definitely see a temporary dip in the ratings, ticket sales, and merchandising.

[Sarcastic]

What's wrong with it is that it has left us with an entire conference that is irrelevant. When there isn't enough competitive, entertaining basketball the popularity of the league can take a hit. I am not saying that this will end the NBA with one bad season but we could definitely see a temporary dip in the ratings, ticket sales, and merchandising.


Then get rid of the draft. Teams are incentivized to lose because of the draft.

[NuggetsFan]

I think your confused with tanking and rebuilding. Yeah some teams should probably make an extra move or two to compete but expecting Utah to go out and grab Monta Ellis? .. wouldn't even make them that much better. Hurts there cap flexibility and probably hurts some development that's going on right now with there core. Moves like that are why teams end up sucking.

Some of these shitty teams are simply rebuilding and have no choice in the matter, some are just smart and trying to force the rebuild. Like the Celtics, which isn't going to work because of how poor the East is.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I think your confused with tanking and rebuilding.No I have not. They are related with tanking being at the core of a lot of team's rebuilding. Toronto traded Gay away, is looking to deal Lowry, and dealt Bargnani. The value of Gay and especially Bargs is questionable but looking at these moves overall there's no doubt Ujiri knows he's made the team worse in the short term. They are tanking. Orlando, like Utah, did nothing to improve short term and it will be to no one's surprise if/when Afflalo is dealt for a pick. And I've addressed the Cs. This is tanking. What you hopefully can understand is that tanking is often a part of rebuilding.
Yeah some teams should probably make an extra move or two to compete but expecting Utah to go out and grab Monta Ellis? .. wouldn't even make them that much better. Hurts there cap flexibility and probably hurts some development that's going on right now with there core. Moves like that are why teams end up sucking.Ellis was just an example. The question I posed is, "what has Utah done to improve?" They certainly lost players, in Jefferson's case a valuable player. They let the team become terrible and unless they know less about ball than the average fan they have to have realized they would struggle. They let it happen. They're tanking.
Some of these shitty teams are simply rebuilding and have no choice in the matter, some are just smart and trying to force the rebuild. Like the Celtics, which isn't going to work because of how poor the East is.Which is a direct result of all the tanking, which is another reason why some of these teams should stop taking. The Cs traded two of their 4 best players, the best player is injured, the coach was let go and they're still on top of the division? Give it up and see what you can do to build a good team instead of a not-bad-enough bad team.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Then get rid of the draft. Teams are incentivized to lose because of the draft.
That may be right. To me it's a whole other discussion, as there's a lot of variables to consider when it comes to fixing the draft. The lottery was constructed specifically to eliminate tanking and now it seems that isn't good enough.

[mrpibb]

I'm not saying there was no reason for Utah to rebuild. But what I hope you realize is that tanking can and in Utah's case is part of the rebuilding process for a lot of teams. It just doesn't seem to me that the Jazz did anything to improve in the offseason.

In the case of Ellis, he doesn't make Utah a Champ by himself (no one does) but he would have made the team better. In the right situation like most good players he could be part of a Championship formula, to answer your question.

And I'm not saying the players are coaches are part of the tank. That's almost never done, as far as I know. But when a team doesn't improve the roster, just let's talent walk and goes into a season with Gordon Hayward as the best player? That's how a front office tanks.

Any player we could have brought in would take minutes away from the young core. We needed the young players to be our best players for the sake of seeing what they're made of. We had seen Hayward excel, and this year we're seeing him struggle as the one guy defenses do not want to let beat them.

And really, we're not that bad. I believe we've won 5 of our last 6 when our current starting lineup is healthy.

The goal wasn't to win a championship, but neither was the goal to get a high draft pick. We want to find out what we have and avoid making a mistake like we did with Kirilenko.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Any player we could have brought in would take minutes away from the young core. We needed the young players to be our best players for the sake of seeing what they're made of. We had seen Hayward excel, and this year we're seeing him struggle as the one guy defenses do not want to let beat them.

And really, we're not that bad. I believe we've won 5 of our last 6 when our current starting lineup is healthy.

The goal wasn't to win a championship, but neither was the goal to get a high draft pick. We want to find out what we have and avoid making a mistake like we did with Kirilenko.
I think we both understand where the other is coming from. There will never be a team that announces itself as tanking, it's left to the observer to judge for himself. As it is open to interpretation, it can be interpreted differently by different people.

[Shade8780]

The Eastern Conference is an absolute disgrace. How the **** are we 4th in the conference? I didnt want to trade Rondo and I love him as a Celtic, but I'm considering having Danny trade him and Green for Granger, Stephenson, Hill, Johnson and future picks. That's a shitty return for us but I'd rather have a top 8 lottery pick than being stuck in the first round of the playoffs and Doug McDermott as our first round pick in the Draft. You can call it tanking if you want, and I agree with you OP, tanking is annoying, but the route we went (the real way to rebuild), isn't working in this terrible conference.

[tanks1]

How about this? Teams with the three worst records, CANNOT be in slot #1, #2, or #3 of the draft lottery. If the raptors win #1, they would slide to #4, the others would move up.

[Soundwave]

The problem is the NBA has too many teams really. When you have more teams than talent to fill those teams you're perrenially going to have a huge group of really bad teams and situations like this are inevitable.

NBA should contract franchises but they're not willing to do that and those franchises even with horrible teams still want to keep them because they need something (anything) to keep their arena dates busy in between Miley Cyrus concerts and the Ice Capades.

[GOBB]

I agree stop tanking so we can have a crop of NBA teams stuck in mediocrity for a few seasons. Wait what?

[Eric Cartman]

Contrary to popular belief, tanking will in many cases leave you in a mediocrity at best state.

For reference see the current Charlotte Bobcats and PELICANS.

[GOBB]

Contrary to popular belief, tanking will in many cases leave you in a mediocrity at best state.

For reference see the current Charlotte Bobcats and PELICANS.

Yeah and only one team wins the NBA title, so just because you have a franchise player, impact players doesnt mean you're going to win a title.

[Qwyjibo]

Contrary to popular belief, tanking will in many cases leave you in a mediocrity at best state.

For reference see the current Charlotte Bobcats and PELICANS.
Well you still need good management to go along with tanking. The Bobcats don't suck because they tanked. They suck because they've had piss poor management. The Pelicans are a poor example because they tanked and got a legit franchise player. Tanking didn't cause them to waste money on Tyreke Evans.

[Sarcastic]

That may be right. To me it's a whole other discussion, as there's a lot of variables to consider when it comes to fixing the draft. The lottery was constructed specifically to eliminate tanking and now it seems that isn't good enough.

It's not a different discussion. The system in place perpetuates tanking. Look at sports that don't have a draft. Do you think the University of Alabama would lose games on purpose to get a recruit? Hell no. They get the best players because they win and pay their coaches top dollar.

It's a retarded system we have that rewards losing. Until it's replaced then we will always have tanking.

[ballup]

It's not a different discussion. The system in place perpetuates tanking. Look at sports that don't have a draft. Do you think the University of Alabama would lose games on purpose to get a recruit? Hell no. They get the best players because they win and pay their coaches top dollar.

It's a retarded system we have that rewards losing. Until it's replaced then we will always have tanking.
If you do a rookie free agent system, then there won't be balance in the league as rookies will more likely to go to hotspots like LA. It only somewhat works on the collegiate level because most good college players don't stay the full 4 years.

[Sarcastic]

If you do a rookie free agent system, then there won't be balance in the league as rookies will more likely to go to hotspots like LA. It only somewhat works on the collegiate level because most good college players don't stay the full 4 years.

Yea because Alabama, Oregon, and Louisiana have had a hard time recruiting the best players away from all the NY, and Los Angeles schools. :rolleyes:


If the teams in shitty cities build themselves up with a winning culture, the players would go. Also a cap could be put in place to prevent every recruit from joining up in one place.

If you had a free agent system in the NFL, who do you think would attract more players, the NY Jets or Green Bay Packers?

[GOBB]

Yea because Alabama, Oregon, and Louisiana have had a hard time recruiting the best players away from all the NY, and Los Angeles schools. :rolleyes:


If the teams in shitty cities build themselves up with a winning culture, the players would go. Also a cap could be put in place to prevent every recruit from joining up in one place.

If you had a free agent system in the NFL, who do you think would attract more players, the NY Jets or Green Bay Packers?

Ny jets

[robert de niro]

tanking is really bad, it only damages the sport. In many other leagues and sports bottom 3 teams go down to the lower division and the top 3 of that lower division go up, it's a way of keeping it competitive, NBA is rewarding the slack teams BIG

[ballup]

Yea because Alabama, Oregon, and Louisiana have had a hard time recruiting the best players away from all the NY, and Los Angeles schools. :rolleyes:


If the teams in shitty cities build themselves up with a winning culture, the players would go. Also a cap could be put in place to prevent every recruit from joining up in one place.

If you had a free agent system in the NFL, who do you think would attract more players, the NY Jets or Green Bay Packers?
The college landscape is much different than the NBA landscape. The NBA has much less teams and viable players to choose from compared to the collegiate level due to its higher demands. In addition, college is only a means for many players to the pros. There's more of an incentive for college players to go to less popular schools, which is to show off their talent so that they can raise their stock for the pros. Higher draft stock stays with the player throughout his professional career and it helps players get more chances in the pros. The same cannot be said for the pros because the pros is the end, not the means.

The best recruits out of college would want to play in the cities with better winning backgrounds, not to the bottom teams where they have to go through some tough years in order to compete. Weaker teams need the opportunity to get a cornerstone piece to change their fortunes.

It's not easy to build a winning culture. These teams are competing against each other, not all teams can be winners and even if they could, it would take decades before there would be some semblance of even winning cultures.

That NFL analogy proves the imbalance I'm pointing out. The best recruits would want the Packers because they've had a previous record of a winning culture. There wouldn't be a balance in the league because the best recruits can just go to the contenders, creating a richer get richer scenario.

[ripthekik]

tanking is bad.

and real men wear green likes diicks

[poido123]

[QUOTE=robert de niro]tanking is really bad, it only damages the sport. In many other leagues and sports bottom 3 teams go down to the lower division and the top 3 of that lower division go up, it's a way of keeping it competitive, NBA is rewarding the slack teams BIG

[Eric Cartman]

Well you still need good management to go along with tanking. The Bobcats don't suck because they tanked. They suck because they've had piss poor management. The Pelicans are a poor example because they tanked and got a legit franchise player. Tanking didn't cause them to waste money on Tyreke Evans.

You are right on the Pelicans.

Ok what about the Sacramento Kings? :confusedshrug:

[gyu]

Give the teams that just missed the playoffs the highest probability to win the lottery (9th has highest, then 10th, etc.).

[IncarceratedBob]

The thing is that when you have the chance to get a sure fire hall of famer and certain franchise player like Wiggins you need to do whatever it takes to get him. I can't blame the teams tanking, the one who wins the lottery will get multiple championships for their trouble

[Jameerthefear]

Worked for us twice before, so why not again...

[joshwake]

I'm not saying there was no reason for Utah to rebuild. But what I hope you realize is that tanking can and in Utah's case is part of the rebuilding process for a lot of teams. It just doesn't seem to me that the Jazz did anything to improve in the offseason.

In the case of Ellis, he doesn't make Utah a Champ by himself (no one does) but he would have made the team better. In the right situation like most good players he could be part of a Championship formula, to answer your question.

And I'm not saying the players are coaches are part of the tank. That's almost never done, as far as I know. But when a team doesn't improve the roster, just let's talent walk and goes into a season with Gordon Hayward as the best player? That's how a front office tanks.
Popavich the year before they drafted Duncan. That was blatant tank job. Pure genius though, but a tank job.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The thing is that when you have the chance to get a sure fire hall of famer and certain franchise player like Wiggins you need to do whatever it takes to get him
:biggums: