Where would Larry Bird rank if he never had the back injury?

[Black and White]

Reading over a recent all time list gave me the motivation to make this thread, Bird is the greatest white man to ever play the game, he was so good on both ends of the floor, he could score, defend, pass and went toe to toe with Magic Johnson, its no secret that his back troubles held him back from being even better, most lists have him ranked around #6 all time, i think he was on track to crack the top 5, and nobody would be putting LeBron over him yet as the best SF,

What do you guys think???

[NumberSix]

Havllcek.

#8rings.

[Black and White]

Havllcek.

#8rings.

Good point

I still think Bird is better tho

[Suguru101]

Mikan.

#5RingsAstheMan.

[moe94]

Peak Bird > peak Magic

[Bandito]

Consensus number 1 or 2 at worst in everybody's GOAT list.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Mikan.

#5RingsAstheMan.
:pimp:

[Black and White]

Mikan.

#5RingsAstheMan.

I don't know alot about Mikan, but I don't see him on most peoples lists, how good was he?

[Element]

he was so good on both ends of the floor, he could score, defend

No

Sorry, had to. Probably Top 5. He would have had to face peak MJ and the Bulls quite a lot had he not retired so I don't see the potential for more than 1/2 additional rings.

[Black and White]

No

Sorry, had to. Probably Top 5. He would have had to face peak MJ and the Bulls quite a lot had he not retired so I don't see the potential for more than 1/2 additional rings.

Larry could absolutely defend, he's no LeBron, but he had the length and was good in the passing lanes.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Right now, for me, all-time:

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Wilt
8. Hakeem
9. Timmy
10. Lebron

Of course I can see Bird lower, Magic higher, also Wilt higher and some other changes, but for me that's how it goes.

What really hurts Bird's career it's his longevity, without injury he could've definitely maintained the same (unreal) level he was on since '84 and really improve his overall career case, and "hurt" it for the players who were playing at that same time as you can even say they could've gotten another title, even though after 86 the Celtics were really broken down and the East was tough af... McHale was never the same, DJ was old, bench was pretty much non-existent after Walton and Wedman retired, Sichting started to go over the hill also, Reggie Lewis came along though, some bad trades too, Bias death.
Simply putting it, he could've definitely got that 4th spot on lock for the majority.
He never really depended on athleticism much, and even after a wrecked back, heel surgeries, and years of non-stop-hustle basketball, he was posting career numbers for most, so even at old age while healthy he would be killing it still.
If he played today, with all the modern advantages and such (yeah you know), his career would've easily lasted longer and he would be even higher on all-time lists.

Also, top 5 peaks, in no particular order: Shaq, Wilt, Bird, Kareem, MJ
That's how amazing the man was, at his best... Shame for injuries in sport, like always.

[moe94]

I don't know alot about Mikan, but I don't see him on most peoples lists, how good was he?
George Mikan is the low key greatest player of all time. Get informed. :biggums:

His biggest problem was that he was a chucker.

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/george-costanza-380x285.jpg

[Genaro]

Where Magic would rank have he never got HIV?

[Black and White]

Mikan is the low key greatest player of all time. Get informed. :biggums:

Why does he get left off of most peoples lists?

[K Xerxes]

I currently have Bird in my second tier with Magic, Shaq and Hakeem. It's not unthinkable he could have cracked the first tier with a few more years at the top.

However, I don't really see him ever getting over MJ. I don't tend to rank by accomplishments or rings; I rank by ability and impact on the court. While he was arguably the most complete offensive player of all time in his peak, his defense left a bit to be desired. So I could never see him becoming GOAT.

[Element]

Larry could absolutely defend, he's no LeBron, but he had the length and was good in the passing lanes.

Ya he's not LeBron that's for sure but he isn't even Kobe or Wade territory defensively

Dude's weak D just gets glossed over for no reason. DJ and McHale always guarded the tougher matchups while Bird was usually hidden somewhere, he was out of position defensively both at PF and SF and, relative to other all-time wings, below average in man-to-man situations. His help defense was solid but seriously now, nothing more than that.

[Black and White]

I currently have Bird in my second tier with Magic, Shaq and Hakeem. It's not unthinkable he could have cracked the first tier with a few more years at the top.

However, I don't really see him ever getting over MJ. I don't tend to rank by accomplishments or rings; I rank by ability and impact on the court. While he was arguably the most complete offensive player of all time in his peak, his defense left a bit to be desired. So I could never see him becoming GOAT.

Agreed, i don't think he would have gotten over MJ but my guess is he could have ended up top 3 of all time.

[ProfessorMurder]

Bird is #5 on my tentative list.

No back problems and another title or two puts him top 3 with an argument for #1.

Arguably the most skilled and highest IQ player ever. Played lights out for 10+ years without athleticism and with terrible back problems.

[Black and White]

Ya he's not LeBron that's for sure but he isn't even Kobe or Wade territory defensively

Dude's weak D just gets glossed over for no reason. DJ and McHale always guarded the tougher matchups while Bird was usually hidden somewhere, he was out of position defensively both at PF and SF and, relative to other all-time wings, below average in man-to-man situations. His help defense was solid but seriously now, nothing more than that.

Fair point about the man to man defense.

[fpliii]

Ya he's not LeBron that's for sure but he isn't even Kobe or Wade territory defensively

Dude's weak D just gets glossed over for no reason. DJ and McHale always guarded the tougher matchups while Bird was usually hidden somewhere, he was out of position defensively both at PF and SF and, relative to other all-time wings, below average in man-to-man situations. His help defense was solid but seriously now, nothing more than that.

Young Bird wasn't a terrible man defender though. From all of the tape out there (pre-84, or before McHale became featured on those teams) he does a pretty good job on his man in the post, and isn't below average on the perimeter.

[SHAQisGOAT]

No

Sorry, had to. Probably Top 5. He would have had to face peak MJ and the Bulls quite a lot had he not retired so I don't see the potential for more than 1/2 additional rings.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s

Led the league in DWS 4 times, 7 times top5.
2nd in DRtg once, top10 6 times.
(Almost 2 spg and 1 bpg for his career, too)
Now find the other fowards who did that, all time... I'll name them for you: Duncan, Bobby Jones, Pippen, KG, Rodman... Bird was doing that shit on the regular, that's right. Playoffs was more of the same.
Celtics went from one of the worst defensive teams in the league (team really) to one of the best in the league with Bird and pretty much the same roster (also coach Fitch) with Larry leading the league in DWS and 6th in DRtg (no teammate top10 in either), with no Parish or McHale yet, or DJ.

All-defensive teams using DWS: http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/all-defensive-teams-using-defensive-win.html
Bird and Hayes are the only forwards leading a certain team and Hayes was PF/C while Bird was PF/SF.

If he did all of that today, better yet if Lebron did that, ****** would be drooling all over, calling him dpoy and such lmao.

Bird's one of the GOAT team defenders, knew when to double-team, how to draw charges, could play the passing lanes and could guard the basket, he was good at guarding the post m2m and before severe injuries he could more than hold his own on the perimeter, also you got plenty of PS series where the man he was guarding played considerably below his standards, go check it out.
One of the most underrated defensive players, all-time, really. Should've easily gotten more defensive honors, but the league had some great defensive forwards, already established, and awards didn't go out by name and hype back then (different now).

Numbers + eye test (enough) = can't go wrong; and those who've actually watched enough of him, at his best, know he was a pretty good defensive player, plenty of his instant impact came from that. All that stuff above piles up and it can't be no fluke or something lol.

Look at how he could win a game from the defensive side also, key steals, drawing charges, great block, guarding the basket, making the right rotation, making Calvin Natt (6'7, 220+, really athletic forward, 20+ points with 7 rebounds threat) play below his averages... And always great on offense and on the boards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI

Sorry, had to.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I don't know alot about Mikan, but I don't see him on most peoples lists, how good was he?
I've been watching basketball since '49 and let me tell you, George Mikan was the greatest basketball player ever. I was lucky enough to witness him live during the golden age of basketball at its peak.

[Deuce Bigalow]

George Mikan is the low key greatest player of all time. Get informed. :biggums:

His biggest problem was that he was a chucker.

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/george-costanza-380x285.jpg
Mikan being a chucker? Maybe in his college days.

[moe94]

Mikan being a chucker? Maybe in his college days.
Seinfeld reference. Mikan still da bes.:banana:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Seinfeld reference. Mikan still da bes.:banana:
Were you fortunate enough to have seen George play?

[Element]

I've been watching basketball since '49 and let me tell you, George Mikan was the greatest basketball player ever. I was lucky enough to witness him live during the golden age of basketball at its peak.

:oldlol:

[Black and White]

I've been watching basketball since '49 and let me tell you, George Mikan was the greatest basketball player ever. I was lucky enough to witness him live during the golden age of basketball at its peak.

Fair call, i don't know enough about him to comment.

Btw how old are you?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Fair call, i don't know enough about him to comment.

Btw how old are you?
81

Back when I was a child we used to play basketball with handwoven peach baskets.

[Black and White]

81

Back when I was a child, we used to play basketball with peach baskets.

lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

lol
If I somehow will be able to live to age 100, I will choose not to. I will commit suicide a day before my 100th birthday wearing my Mikan jersey. I know in my heart that I still have at least a good 10 years left.

[moe94]

Deuce is one of the best posters.

[Black and White]

Right now, for me, all-time:

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Wilt
8. Hakeem
9. Timmy
10. Lebron

Of course I can see Bird lower, Magic higher, also Wilt higher and some other changes, but for me that's how it goes.

What really hurts Bird's career it's his longevity, without injury he could've definitely maintained the same (unreal) level he was on since '84 and really improve his overall career case, and "hurt" it for the players who were playing at that same time as you can even say they could've gotten another title, even though after 86 the Celtics were really broken down and the East was tough af... McHale was never the same, DJ was old, bench was pretty much non-existent after Walton and Wedman retired, Sichting started to go over the hill also, Reggie Lewis came along though, some bad trades too, Bias death.
Simply putting it, he could've definitely got that 4th spot on lock for the majority.
He never really depended on athleticism much, and even after a wrecked back, heel surgeries, and years of non-stop-hustle basketball, he was posting career numbers for most, so even at old age while healthy he would be killing it still.
If he played today, with all the modern advantages and such (yeah you know), his career would've easily lasted longer and he would be even higher on all-time lists.

Also, top 5 peaks, in no particular order: Shaq, Wilt, Bird, Kareem, MJ
That's how amazing the man was, at his best... Shame for injuries in sport, like always.



:applause:

[TimmyDuncan]

Why does he get left off of most peoples lists?

He played in the 40s and 50s. Almost no fans here have seen him play and there is no game to download like we can for Kareem, Magic, Bird or Jordan.

And he played most of his time without black players or very few so that adds to the discredit his accomplishments.

[Suguru101]

If I somehow will be able to live to age 100, I will choose not to. I will commit suicide a day before my 100th birthday wearing my Mikan jersey. I know in my heart that I still have at least a good 10 years left.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :applause:

[fpliii]

If I somehow will be able to live to age 100, I will choose not to. I will commit suicide a day before my 100th birthday wearing my Mikan jersey. I know in my heart that I still have at least a good 10 years left.

:lol

[b1imtf]

81

Back when I was a child we used to play basketball with handwoven peach baskets.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[get these NETS]

celtics run as contenders in Bird era was over the year the Pistons beat them in playoffs


bad luck bad front office decisions and bird would have been stuck on same amount of rings and mvps.....back injury or not

[SHAQisGOAT]

celtics run as contenders in Bird era was over the year the Pistons beat them in playoffs


bad luck bad front office decisions and bird would have been stuck on same amount of rings and mvps.....back injury or not


Even so (and not saying that that couldn't have happened) the extra longevity alone would've been great to add to Bird's overall career, a dude that won a whole lot in arguably the GOAT era, turned teams around and had great impact from the get-go, made teammates better, and had a beastly, top5 all-time, peak, but had his career/prime/peak cut short by injuries. So added longevity would've been enough to up him spots in several lists. Plus it would've upped his overall stats most likely, as in those years he had to carry the load and also play more minutes, like in 1988, at 31, in his last (considerably) healthy year, he put up 29.9/9.3/6.1 on 53/41/92. Even in 1990 he had a really good year, also carrying the load and playing lots of minutes.

With all that said, those are just what-ifs and hard to happen because Larry is arguably the superstar that hustled the most, all-time, played extremely physical basketball, gave it all he had (even off-court most likely) and had to carry the load in his final (considerably) healthy years... So it was close to impossible for him to stay really healthy all those years, right now it would've been different though...

For me, still got him at #4.

[get these NETS]

@Shaq



when you figure that red RAN that froncourt into the ground (regardless of who the coach was..red ran bird,mchale,parrish into the ground with all those minutes)

Bird had to be a good 2 years older than average nba rookie (remember he enrolled then left iU and drifted before playing at Istate

Bird seemed to be a gym rat but don't think he embraced physical conditioning as a part of training not nearly as much as shooting

people embrace the old shcool legend of the old boston garden but playing on THAT bullshit court at least 41 times a year has to do EXTRA damage to your joints


Bird fell apart around the time he was supposed to fall apart

[get these NETS]

With all that said, those are just what-ifs and hard to happen because Larry is arguably the superstar that hustled the most, all-time,

nah..not even the Celtic that hustled the most.....how about Dave Maniac Cowens , Hondo, or Kevin "anything is possible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Garnett?

[SHAQisGOAT]

@Shaq



when you figure that red RAN that froncourt into the ground (regardless of who the coach was..red ran bird,mchale,parrish into the ground with all those minutes)


You could say that, yes. In the late 80s they had virtually no bench though, so only way they could "win", but Bird shouldn't be playing that much at that age with his type of injury(ies), McHale the same after the foot injury, Chief had crazy longevity but never played really heavy minutes and he was in his mid 30s. Bias could've had given them some "rest" but you know...


Bird had to be a good 2 years older than average nba rookie (remember he enrolled then left iU and drifted before playing at Istate


Yeah, he was 23 in his 1st season, which is late by basketball/nba standards, especially a player with his talents.



Bird seemed to be a gym rat but don't think he embraced physical conditioning as a part of training not nearly as much as shooting



Nah, he used to work on the physical side as well, was always jogging (he was always seen running around, before the games or practices, also) even after his basketball years, you can see it in some documentaries and such, he also said he lifted weights and worked around the gym (interviews during and after his career) and even shed some weight after 86 because of the back issues, to feel more mobile and whatnot (going from 240 back to 220).



people embrace the old shcool legend of the old boston garden but playing on THAT bullshit court at least 41 times a year has to do EXTRA damage to your joints


True. Classic court and arena but that shit looked painful and was outdated.



Bird fell apart around the time he was supposed to fall apart

Yes I think you can say that. Like I've said he was really physical and hustled til death on every play (similar way outside of the court), used his body to his advantage, loved to bang inside, played through countless injuries and always gave it his all, had to carry the load plenty of times and gotta remember he was playing in the 80s not the 00s. People used to warn him about his style all the time but he just couldn't play differently (as seen in the vid below).


nah..not even the Celtic that hustled the most.....how about Dave Maniac Cowens , Hondo, or Kevin "anything is possible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Garnett?

Cowens has a case maybe, Hondo was more in terms of stamina and never stopped running, KG's really intense but never hustled as much as Bird imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4ItrWz6Sd8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIdXyBvb_us

[Micku]

Reading over a recent all time list gave me the motivation to make this thread, Bird is the greatest white man to ever play the game, he was so good on both ends of the floor, he could score, defend, pass and went toe to toe with Magic Johnson, its no secret that his back troubles held him back from being even better, most lists have him ranked around #6 all time, i think he was on track to crack the top 5, and nobody would be putting LeBron over him yet as the best SF,

What do you guys think???

His finger and his back honestly. His injured his finger, and he never had a feel for the ball as much as he did in college, but at the same time you see Kobe with his messed up finger and he pretty much hit the same % with or without his messed up finger I believe. Who knows how Bird would play in his prime without those injuries. It may have been the same or he may have been better. But I think his longevity would've been better if not for his back.

It messed up his back around 85 in the off season. It just got worse and worse over time. I don't think the Celtics could've won more titles than they had in the 80s because there were other injuries and misfortune things that happened. I know Bird and the Celtics dealt with a bunch of injuries that hindered them. Bird had bone spur in the Achilles tendon of each foot in the late 80s. Len Bias death may have been a big lost for the Celtics because that's the year that they needed bench play. Len Bias was the second pick overall, and was regarded as one of the best players to never play in the NBA.

So, there are a lot of what ifs. But they did pretty good obviously despite the ifs.

[get these NETS]

@Shaq

we're gonna have to disagree on some points but I respect your opinion.

lot of times, because Bird was a great player, people look at him as paul bunyon or mighty casey...a super hero....and the same phrases and cliches come up
you can read them from others in this thread


but old rookie, played heavy minutes from th beginning...terrible home court and probably practice court to run on....high draft pick who is supposed to help spell he and mchale dies....he broke down right about on schedule

Topic only comes up because Bron looks like he's about to overtake Bird in hardware and accolades.... and people resent it.......because Bird was locked as at least the best SF on most lists and there's no objective way to believe that if Bron does what it appears he will do.