Why wasn't Mark Jackson more praised as a player?

[SacJB Shady]

I'm going to Mark Jackson's bobble head night on Tuesday vs the Pelicans. It will be his bobble head as a coach not a player. One guy I know says that he doesn't think Jackson was that good. But come to think about it, why doesn't anyone ever put Jackson in the discussion? He is THIRD All time in assists. Now if Nash keeps on playing, he may pass Jackson as he's pretty close, but still being 4th all time assists is very impressive.

He also averaged 10 points a game and shot mid 40's. I mean guys like Kidd shot 39 or 40 percent, and Jackson also was a good defensive player, played winning basketball on winning teams, and was a son of god (I know the latter statement will get a highlight and a LOL :lol whatever.)

Point is Mark Jackson should be at least a borderline hall of famer based on these accolades. Anytime you're top 5 in assists and are that consistent year after year, you should at least get an honorable mention.

[Nick Young]

He was just a slightly above average guy who played for a long ass time. Andre Miller for example is much better then Mark Jackson, and he never gets much praise.

[moe94]

Andre Miller for example is much better then Mark Jackson, and he never gets much praise.
Andre Miller literally led the league in APG and didn't make the allstar team. :facepalm

An entire assist above the second highest.

How did they let that happen?

[Ancient Legend]

Mark Jackson is what Antwan Jamison is today, they racked up stats because of longevity, but they had minor impact on their teams.

Oh and he had this annoying habbit of backing down opposing PGs from half-court.

He had a nice tear drop, but Parker perfected it.

[Nick Young]

Andre Miller literally led the league in APG and didn't make the allstar team. :facepalm

An entire assist above the second highest.

How did they let that happen?
He put up 50 as an old man a few years ago too, really good PG, always on mediocre teams though.

[SacJB Shady]

Mark Jackson is what Antwan Jamison is today, they racked up stats because of longevity, but they had minor impact on their teams.

Oh and he had this annoying habbit of backing down opposing PGs from half-court.

He had a nice tear drop, but Parker perfected it.


You gotta be kidding me. And I think Jamison deserves a little more credit too. And btw, why isn't longevity part of the overall ranking? Cal Ripken got praised for longevity. Anyways that's not my point. Mark Jackson had a major impact, his Pacers team was always good. That's why Miller made all those 3's, Jackson passed it to him.

[SacJB Shady]

Andre Miller literally led the league in APG and didn't make the allstar team. :facepalm

An entire assist above the second highest.

How did they let that happen?


Then I'm not just talking about Jackson, Miller is also top 9 in assists and deserves praise and all star accolades too.

[SHAQisGOAT]

He was never really that impactful as you make it seem. Could really pass the rock, not a scoring threat though, could rebound well for a PG, could play D but wasn't definitely good at it. No all-nba teams, 1 time all-star, never top 10 in mvp voting.
Good player at his best but not a HoF'er, not even close enough.

[SacJB Shady]

He was never really that impactful as you make it seem. Could really pass the rock, not a scoring threat though, could rebound well for a PG, could play D but wasn't definitely good at it. No all-nba teams, 1 time all-star, never top 10 in mvp voting.
Good player at his best but not a HoF'er, not even close enough.


But you just admitted he could do a lot of things

[get these NETS]

solid player

no athleticism or foot speed ....bad defender

but used his body well in post or back down situations


not a great passer....very flashy passer but not a great passer for a pg


stats do lie...for example kidd is in top 5 of three pointers made... i think...he made some timely clutch threes but he was never....ever a great or good shooter...so action jackson's assists numbers don't tell full story

[moe94]

not a great passer....very flashy passer but not a great passer for a pg


stats do lie...for example kidd is in top 5 of three pointers made... i think...he made some timely clutch threes but he was never....ever a great or good shooter...so action jackson's assists numbers don't tell full story

What the hell are you talking about? His a/t ratio is very very good. You cannot fluke that or get lucky or pad it or none of that. Just stop.

[G-train]

He was just a player, with a bit of flash. His passing was great, but everything else just solid.
When he played, he was always considered a medium to good player, just not a great one.

[get these NETS]

What the hell are you talking about? His a/t ratio is very very good. You cannot fluke that or get lucky or pad it or none of that. Just stop.


said he was a solid player which is why he stayed around so long

his assist numbers total are based on playing for a long time at an average level pg

sustained mediocrity

[moe94]

said he was a solid player which is why he stayed around so long

his assist numbers total are based on playing for a long time at an average level pg

sustained mediocrity

When averaging 8 assists for a career and peaking at 11 is average or mediocre, let me know. You're making an ass out of yourself.

[Miller for 3]

Good not great player. Amazing passer, but below average in basically every other aspect. Ty Lawson last year was better than Jackson ever was, and Lawson was barely a top 10 PG

[sportjames23]

He was never really that impactful as you make it seem. Could really pass the rock, not a scoring threat though, could rebound well for a PG, could play D but wasn't definitely good at it. No all-nba teams, 1 time all-star, never top 10 in mvp voting.
Good player at his best but not a HoF'er, not even close enough.


This.

[get these NETS]

When averaging 8 assists for a career and peaking at 11 is average or mediocre, let me know. You're making an ass out of yourself.
ok did I rough you up in a past post or something and you can't let it go??



jax played through a few eras and he was never a top tier point guard, maybe 1 year as a second tier pg,

mediocre player......who got a lot of hype coming out of sju and playing at msg ....won roy....and was a solid player for his career

in any given year of his career, there were 6-8 point guards who were better than him

[sportjames23]

ok did I rough you up in a past post or something and you can't let it go??



jax played through a few eras and he was never a top tier point guard, maybe 1 year as a second tier pg,

mediocre player......who got a lot of hype coming out of sju and playing at msg ....won roy....and was a solid player for his career

in any given year of his career, there were 6-8 point guards who were better than him


And this.

[moe94]

I have no idea who you are, but you're underrating the man. Point blank.

You've yet to show how his passing was average or mediocre when I threw stats all in your face suggesting you're wrong. Take the loss.

[97 bulls]

Jackson was a great PG. A floor general. He did what his coaches wanted him to do. What more can you ask? Its like knocking Shaq because he couldn't dribble.

Isn't he ranked third all-time in assists?

[FKAri]

mama there goes that man.

I remember him on the Raptors. Used to lob it up to VC all the time.

[SacJB Shady]

When averaging 8 assists for a career and peaking at 11 is average or mediocre, let me know. You're making an ass out of yourself.

This

[Reggie43]

ok did I rough you up in a past post or something and you can't let it go??



jax played through a few eras and he was never a top tier point guard, maybe 1 year as a second tier pg,

mediocre player......who got a lot of hype coming out of sju and playing at msg ....won roy....and was a solid player for his career

in any given year of his career, there were 6-8 point guards who were better than him

Getting rule changes named after you, being 3rd alltime in assists, leading very good teams deep in the playoffs as the main playmaker is what constitutes as being mediocre now?

When the World champion Chicago Bulls covers you with arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time in Scottie Pippen in a playoff series dont you think that aforementioned player should get a certain amount of respect and is far from being a mediocre player as you claim?

[redhonda76]

Mark was great at couple of areas, one being a passer and the other was being a floor general. He has alot of weakness in his game that prevented him from being the top group of pgs in his era. Mark was slow ( can't break down the defense, excel in half court offense ), below average defender ( can't guard faster pgs ), and a below average shooter.

[get these NETS]

Getting rule changes named after you, being 3rd alltime in assists, leading very good teams deep in the playoffs as the main playmaker is what constitutes as being mediocre now?

When the World champion Chicago Bulls covers you with arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time in Scottie Pippen in a playoff series dont you think that aforementioned player should get a certain amount of respect and is far from being a mediocre player as you claim?


1 rule change....jax had space clearing butt and used it to his advantage...rule was changed because it wasn't fan pleasing basketball not because jax was destroying the league

oscar robertson and barkley used the backdown in their arsenals...but they could do way more things

2. smart crafty player stayed healthy...coachable....played a lot of games accumulated a lot of assists...

said already that he was a solid pg

3. complimentary player ..and generally smart..good work ethic...maximized his limited abilities

but was never top tier at his position....briefly maybe second tier...like I said in any given year that he played , there were 6-8 players that were better pgs than him

4. don't recall that but if so...makes sense to disrupt the offense by putting long limbed strong pip on the slow footed unathletic pg.....what were pip's steals numbers in series?

[iamgine]

Getting rule changes named after you, being 3rd alltime in assists, leading very good teams deep in the playoffs as the main playmaker is what constitutes as being mediocre now?

When the World champion Chicago Bulls covers you with arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time in Scottie Pippen in a playoff series dont you think that aforementioned player should get a certain amount of respect and is far from being a mediocre player as you claim?
Wouldn't that depend on why he was defending him? From what I heard it's to disrupt the flow of Indy's offense. So Pippen defended Jackson to destroy Indy's system, not because Jackson was a good/bad player.

[97 bulls]

Wouldn't that depend on why he was defending him? From what I heard it's to disrupt the flow of Indy's offense. So Pippen defended Jackson to destroy Indy's system, not because Jackson was a good/bad player.
It shows that the Bulls knew that the best way to beat that Pacer team was to sever the head. So even when Miller was comming off those screens and picks, Jackson couldn't gey Miller clean looks passes. And it limited the entry pass to Smits. As well as had the Pacer offense start their offense with less than 10 seconds to go.

It shows how important Jackson was to the Pacer offense even if he wasn't scoring.

[ZMonkey11]

Always played with a bigger star, no chip, wasn't flashy.

You knew the answer, don't try to sound smart.

[iamgine]

It shows that the Bulls knew that the best way to beat that Pacer team was to sever the head. So even when Miller was comming off those screens and picks, Jackson couldn't gey Miller clean looks passes. And it limited the entry pass to Smits. As well as had the Pacer offense start their offense with less than 10 seconds to go.

It shows how important Jackson was to the Pacer offense even if he wasn't scoring.
He was indeed an important player in Indy's system, but that's no indication of how good/bad he was.

[97 bulls]

He was indeed an important player in Indy's system, but that's no indication of how good/bad he was.
What indicates it then? Why does a players worth always have to start and end with his iso ability? When will we learn that there are many ways to be effective in basketball.

He was routinely top 5 in assists, he wasn't a great defender, but he wasn't bad. He had a high IQ. He evolved into a solid 3pt shooter. I just dont see what was wrong with him.

Would it have been better for him to be able to drop 20 and 5 with 4-5 TOs?

[SacJB Shady]

Always played with a bigger star, no chip, wasn't flashy.

You knew the answer, don't try to sound smart.


Having a chip or being flashy doesn't mean you should get praised. So what if he had a bigger star? He was a very good player in his own right. He averaged 8 assists throughout his entire career and that's why he's top 3 of all time.

[iamgine]

What indicates it then? Why does a players worth always have to start and end with his iso ability? When will we learn that there are many ways to be effective in basketball.

He was routinely top 5 in assists, he wasn't a great defender, but he wasn't bad. He had a high IQ. He evolved into a solid 3pt shooter. I just dont see what was wrong with him.

Would it have been better for him to be able to drop 20 and 5 with 4-5 TOs?
Nothing wrong with him. He was a good player.

[Reggie43]

1 rule change....jax had space clearing butt and used it to his advantage...rule was changed because it wasn't fan pleasing basketball not because jax was destroying the league

oscar robertson and barkley used the backdown in their arsenals...but they could do way more things

2. smart crafty player stayed healthy...coachable....played a lot of games accumulated a lot of assists...

said already that he was a solid pg

3. complimentary player ..and generally smart..good work ethic...maximized his limited abilities

but was never top tier at his position....briefly maybe second tier...like I said in any given year that he played , there were 6-8 players that were better pgs than him

4. don't recall that but if so...makes sense to disrupt the offense by putting long limbed strong pip on the slow footed unathletic pg.....what were pip's steals numbers in series?

Yet you cant truly explain how someone can be 3rd alltime in assists and not be a great passer and even be called a mediocre player by your standards?

You obviously wont recall that Bulls Pacers series because you hardly saw him play outside of a few games when he was way past his prime.

He was never a top tier pg but was a very good one and is in my opinion much better than what his stats indicates. Just watch any Pacers-Knicks playoff series and see for yourself how much impact he had on those games.

[MoBe1Kanobi]

Someone Help Ive Been A Member Here For Like 3 Years And I Never Made A Thread So It Discourages Me To Post Here So I Just Browse But Now I Wanna Post A New Thread And It Doesnt Let Me Someone Help A Young Nicca Out Tho

[SamuraiSWISH]

Good, but not great. Obviously. Slow, un-athletic, not much of a penetrator. But could back down smaller PGs, decent spot up shooter from deep, great passer, excellent at managing the game and being a tempo dictating floor general IE a classic PG. Wasn't much of a scorer, but didn't need to be. Had decent handle, just not creative with it due to slow foot speed.

[get these NETS]

Yet you cant truly explain how someone can be 3rd alltime in assists and not be a great passer and even be called a mediocre player by your standards?

You obviously wont recall that Bulls Pacers series because you hardly saw him play outside of a few games when he was way past his prime.

He was never a top tier pg but was a very good one and is in my opinion much better than what his stats indicates. Just watch any Pacers-Knicks playoff series and see for yourself how much impact he had on those games.


joe johnson and antawn jamison have scored more points in this league than some guys who are in the hall of fame......are they great players historically......are they great players now?

jax stayed healthy and was a solid player for many years.....he wasn't a better point guard, player, or passer than any six or 8 starting pgs from any year he played



when jordan played the games were must watch and everybody watched..so come again with I didn't see that series between bulls pacers...just don't recall that individual matchup

I saw jax play on tv from the time he was a soph in college to the end...including his early run with the knicks....seen what he can do and what he can't do.

[STATUTORY]

If big o was transported to modern era and retained his game from the 60s, he would have been a mark Jackson type player

[Reggie43]

joe johnson and antawn jamison have scored more points in this league than some guys who are in the hall of fame......are they great players historically......are they great players now?

jax stayed healthy and was a solid player for many years.....he wasn't a better point guard, player, or passer than any six or 8 starting pgs from any year he played



when jordan played the games were must watch and everybody watched..so come again with I didn't see that series between bulls pacers...just don't recall that individual matchup

I saw jax play on tv from the time he was a soph in college to the end...including his early run with the knicks....seen what he can do and what he can't do.

Seeing someone play and understanding how he plays are two different things. You call the jordan games must watch yet you forgot the most crucial matchup of the series? It was all in the headlines after game 1 yet you conveniently "forgot" about that part?

What you cant seem to understand is that nobody is calling him a great player or point guard but what some people are asking you to explain is how you could call him "mediocre" with all the stats and accolades he has had throughout his career coupled with very successful playoff runs albeit not winning it all

[get these NETS]

Seeing someone play and understanding how he plays are two different things. You call the jordan games must watch yet you forgot the most crucial matchup of the series? It was all in the headlines after game 1 yet you conveniently "forgot" about that part?

What you cant seem to understand is that nobody is calling him a great player or point guard but what some people are asking you to explain is how you could call him "mediocre" with all the stats and accolades he has had throughout his career coupled with very successful playoff runs albeit not winning it all

ok, so we both agree that he wasn't a great player or pg

what I'm saying time and time again was that he was a coachable solid point guard......good complimentary player.....has to be a good locker room guy to have played for so long

but as an individual player...he doesn't need to be "praised more" because he was an average player...take the year he made allstar....look up the all nba teams and the names /seasons of other players in his position and you can't argue my point.

players like him with obvious talent and physical shortcomings have to be crafty and hard working to stay in the league ...and jax was surely that


contending teams usually have jax type players on their teams and his value within a team with star or superstar players is more than his value as an individual talent.

but don't lie and say that jax was anything other than a mediocre point guard.

[mugiwara]

Someone Help Ive Been A Member Here For Like 3 Years And I Never Made A Thread So It Discourages Me To Post Here So I Just Browse But Now I Wanna Post A New Thread And It Doesnt Let Me Someone Help A Young Nicca Out Tho

You need a certain amount of posts, like 50 or something.

Go young kobe stan, be free and spread your filth.

[Kblaze8855]

Always played with a bigger star, no chip, wasn't flashy.


I disagree......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd_g0dsf61o

[Reggie43]

ok, so we both agree that he wasn't a great player or pg

what I'm saying time and time again was that he was a coachable solid point guard......good complimentary player.....has to be a good locker room guy to have played for so long

but as an individual player...he doesn't need to be "praised more" because he was an average player...take the year he made allstar....look up the all nba teams and the names /seasons of other players in his position and you can't argue my point.

players like him with obvious talent and physical shortcomings have to be crafty and hard working to stay in the league ...and jax was surely that


contending teams usually have jax type players on their teams and his value within a team with star or superstar players is more than his value as an individual talent.

but don't lie and say that jax was anything other than a mediocre point guard.

You obviously dont understand the responsibilities and opportunities that come with playing in a winning situation. You put too much stock on the stats he had yet forget how to look at it in context. He played on good defensive teams were shots are harder to come by. Does him playing on a bad team in a Dantoni type system where he would easily average 4 more points and 3 more assists make him a better player in your eyes?

Mediocre is a word you seem to easily throw around, are non-allstars all mediocre players by your standards? And FYI average players dont lead one of the worst franchises in nba history (clippers) to its only playoff berth after a very long while.

[97 bulls]

You obviously dont understand the responsibilities and opportunities that come with playing in a winning situation. You put too much stock on the stats he had yet forget how to look at it in context. He played on good defensive teams were shots are harder to come by. Does him playing on a bad team in a Dantoni type system where he would easily average 4 more points and 3 more assists make him a better player in your eyes?

Mediocre is a word you seem to easily throw around, are non-allstars all mediocre players by your standards? And FYI average players dont lead one of the worst franchises in nba history (clippers) to its only playoff berth after a very long while.
This exactly. He was great at doing his job. Running the team. Unfortunately for him and the teams he played for, they always went up against better teams.

[bizil]

I think it's because the only thing he did very good to great was pass the rock. Which he was great at and frankly the most premium asset at PG. When u look at PG's u have guys who are dominant passers and alpha dogs in one like Magic, Isiah, Big O, Payton, Frazier, CP3, DWill, Nash etc. Then u have guys who are dominant scorers and very good passers but they are kind of like combo guards such as Rose, Westbrook, Arenas, etc. Then u have guys who are great passers, but not dominant scorers such as Stockton, Rondo, Kidd, Jackson, Cousy, etc. But guys like Stockton, Rondo, Cousy, and Kidd were very good to great in other areas like scoring, defense, or rebounding for a guard. Mark was good at other facets, but didn't standout in as many other areas as a Stockton, Kidd, or Rondo.

[moe94]

Go young kobe stan, be free and spread your filth.
Literal tears. I'm tired or something.

[KevinNYC]

I disagree......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd_g0dsf61o

The Black kids at school used call me Barkley and Round Mound until they saw me play and then they called me Jackson. I think it was after I stepped into the passing lane to make a steal, tipping it far in front of me and when I recovered it there was a guy in front of my right on my dribbling hand who went for the steal. Instinctively went around my back and right by him for a layup.

[get these NETS]

You obviously dont understand the responsibilities and opportunities that come with playing in a winning situation. You put too much stock on the stats he had yet forget how to look at it in context. He played on good defensive teams were shots are harder to come by. Does him playing on a bad team in a Dantoni type system where he would easily average 4 more points and 3 more assists make him a better player in your eyes?

Mediocre is a word you seem to easily throw around, are non-allstars all mediocre players by your standards? And FYI average players dont lead one of the worst franchises in nba history (clippers) to its only playoff berth after a very long while.


you haven't refuted anything that I wrote

guess you just googled that he was on clips team that made playoffs

whoop de damn doo....I remember the footage..billy crystal in the jack/spike seats.....



jax was a solid average nba talent.....nothing you've written has convinced me otherwise

[aceman]

Jackson's floor general skills were alpha dog.

[Reggie43]

you haven't refuted anything that I wrote

guess you just googled that he was on clips team that made playoffs

whoop de damn doo....I remember the footage..billy crystal in the jack/spike seats.....



jax was a solid average nba talent.....nothing you've written has convinced me otherwise

You do realize that the reason I havent responded to some of your points is that I actually agree with them and the only things I was arguing about is how you could call someone mediocre with all the success and records he had?

The funny thing is that you also havent refuted anything that I wrote. Ill ask you again "How did the average player lead one of the worst teams in the 90s to its only playoff berth in that era? Could any average player rank 3rd in the alltime assists list? Does being a former Allstar and Rookie of the Year winner really doesnt exempt you from being call a "mediocre player" by some? Does his continued success on the basketball court not account for anything?

[SpecialQue]

Because he's an asshole.

[get these NETS]

The funny thing is that you also havent refuted anything that I wrote. Ill ask you again "How did the average player lead one of the worst teams in the 90s to its only playoff berth in that era?



Clippers made playoffs in 89'90 lost in first round
THREE years later Jax is n team...they make playoffs...lose in first round


Could any average player rank 3rd in the alltime assists list?

Andre Miller is currently in 9th place alltime in assists..and counting

Does being a former Allstar and Rookie of the Year winner really doesnt exempt you from being call a "mediocre player" by some?
here is the rest of the all rookie team from jax roy season

kenny smith armen gilliam greg anderson derrick mckey
====

the heat's mike miller is former roy and 6th man of year ...

Does his continued success on the basketball court not account for anything?

he was a solid player for a long time....testament to his durability...


you do understand that mediocre and average mean exactly what they say....

the best pgs in the league make all nba teams...the worst are fighting to stay in starting lineup or even in the league

the average ones...fall smack in the middle

[97 bulls]

The funny thing is that you also havent refuted anything that I wrote. Ill ask you again "How did the average player lead one of the worst teams in the 90s to its only playoff berth in that era?



Clippers made playoffs in 89'90 lost in first round
THREE years later Jax is n team...they make playoffs...lose in first round


Could any average player rank 3rd in the alltime assists list?

Andre Miller is currently in 9th place alltime in assists..and counting

Does being a former Allstar and Rookie of the Year winner really doesnt exempt you from being call a "mediocre player" by some?
here is the rest of the all rookie team from jax roy season

kenny smith armen gilliam greg anderson derrick mckey
====

the heat's mike miller is former roy and 6th man of year ...

Does his continued success on the basketball court not account for anything?

he was a solid player for a long time....testament to his durability...


you do understand that mediocre and average mean exactly what they say....

the best pgs in the league make all nba teams...the worst are fighting to stay in starting lineup or even in the league

the average ones...fall smack in the middle
The problem is what makes him a mediocre PG? Im watching the Heat/Pacer game right now. The Pacers have CJ Watson at PG. Their offense is stagnant. Alot of Iso and FGAs late in the clock that are rushed. Watson is what I'd call an average player. But hes not a PG. Hes a SG trapped in a PGs body. Jackson on this team would be amazing.

[97 bulls]

As a point of reference. Rajon Rondo is very similar to Mark Jackson. What makes Rondo better is that hes a great defender as well as pure PG.

[bizil]

The problem is what makes him a mediocre PG? Im watching the Heat/Pacer game right now. The Pacers have CJ Watson at PG. Their offense is stagnant. Alot of Iso and FGAs late in the clock that are rushed. Watson is what I'd call an average player. But hes not a PG. Hes a SG trapper in a PGs body. Jackson on this team would be amazing.

I agree! Jackson on that team would be perfect. Jax is excellent at the most premium PG asset. And that's being a quarterback dropping those dimes. That's all that Indiana team is really missing in my book. They have everything else in spades!

[Reggie43]

The funny thing is that you also havent refuted anything that I wrote. Ill ask you again "How did the average player lead one of the worst teams in the 90s to its only playoff berth in that era?



Clippers made playoffs in 89'90 lost in first round
THREE years later Jax is n team...they make playoffs...lose in first round


Could any average player rank 3rd in the alltime assists list?

Andre Miller is currently in 9th place alltime in assists..and counting

Does being a former Allstar and Rookie of the Year winner really doesnt exempt you from being call a "mediocre player" by some?
here is the rest of the all rookie team from jax roy season

kenny smith armen gilliam greg anderson derrick mckey
====

the heat's mike miller is former roy and 6th man of year ...

Does his continued success on the basketball court not account for anything?

he was a solid player for a long time....testament to his durability...


you do understand that mediocre and average mean exactly what they say....

the best pgs in the league make all nba teams...the worst are fighting to stay in starting lineup or even in the league

the average ones...fall smack in the middle

You got me on the Clippers one, I guess I was basing too much from memory and was surprised when I looked it up myself.

Here are Jackson's Rookie numbers the year he won:
Ppg 13.6 Rpg 4.8 Apg 10.6 Spg 2.5

Those are elite point guard numbers and you are discrediting his win that year? Half the time those numbers would be enough to win you ROY

Of the players you mentioned I consider Andre Miller, Armon Gilliam, and Derrick Mckey as good players and wouldnt really call average. An average starting pg to me would be someone like George Hill, Eric Snow, Greg Anthony etc.

You dont call someone constantly ranked as one of top ten Point Guards in the 90s as a mediocre player dont you think?

[97 bulls]

You got me on the Clippers one, I guess I was basing too much from memory and was surprised when I looked it up myself.

Here are Jackson's Rookie numbers the year he won:
Ppg 13.6 Rpg 4.8 Apg 10.6 Spg 2.5

Those are elite point guard numbers and you are discrediting his win that year? Half the time those numbers would be enough to win you ROY

Of the players you mentioned I consider Andre Miller, Armon Gilliam, and Derrick Mckey as good players and wouldnt really call average. An average starting pg to me would be someone like George Hill, Eric Snow, Greg Anthony etc.

You dont call someone constantly ranked as one of top ten Point Guards in the 90s as a mediocre player dont you think?
Great points. And just to add, Jackson never put up big numbers because of the style of offense his coaches wanted to run. Not because he wasn't good enough.

And I agree with your list of what a "good" player is vs a "mediocre" player. I think far too often, we as fans compare all players to the greatest players as opposed to allow each one to stand on his own merits.

[Reggie43]

Great points. And just to add, Jackson never put up big numbers because of the style of offense his coaches wanted to run. Not because he wasn't good enough.

And I agree with your list of what a "good" player is vs a "mediocre" player. I think far too often, we as fans compare all players to the greatest players as opposed to allow each one to stand on his own merits.

Thanks and yours as well from your past few posts here. As a long time Pacers fan its not really hard to appreciate the work the players put in that doesnt necessarily reflect on the stats. Little things that are necessary to make the system run smoothly.

As I said before Jackson's numbers should really be put in context because to me his impact is beyond the numbers he produced, intangibles like leadership, decision making, being coachable etc

A good example in todays nba similar to Jackson's impact is Tyson Chandler. He produced modest numbers of 10pts 9rbs and 1.3 blks yet he is universally praised as the defensive anchor that catapulted the Mavs to their lone championship and even won Dpoy for his efforts.

This is how Mark for me impacted those pacers teams but on the offensive side of the ball. He was the player who made the offense work and put his teammates in a great position to score.

[get these NETS]

You got me on the Clippers one, I guess I was basing too much from memory and was surprised when I looked it up myself.

Here are Jackson's Rookie numbers the year he won:
Ppg 13.6 Rpg 4.8 Apg 10.6 Spg 2.5

Those are elite point guard numbers and you are discrediting his win that year? Half the time those numbers would be enough to win you ROY

Of the players you mentioned I consider Andre Miller, Armon Gilliam, and Derrick Mckey as good players and wouldnt really call average. An average starting pg to me would be someone like George Hill, Eric Snow, Greg Anthony etc.

You dont call someone constantly ranked as one of top ten Point Guards in the 90s as a mediocre player dont you think?

compared jax rookie class with mike miller for reference

weak classes

jax had good rook numbers but it was a weak class....i read that jax was lowest selected player to win roy.....up until that point


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if there are x amount of teams in the league....and you say that jax was among the top ten

you are sort of agreeing with me about him being smack dab in the middle at his position.....

I have him lower than ten.....around middle of the pack

eric snow was a below average nba guard
greg anthony was below average nba pg
george hill is a below average nba pg
andre miller is an average nba player and pg but durable and consistent

mckey and gilliam were talented players in nba with much better players at their positions in the league

[Reggie43]

compared jax rookie class with mike miller for reference

weak classes

jax had good rook numbers but it was a weak class....i read that jax was lowest selected player to win roy.....up until that point


-----------
if there are x amount of teams in the league....and you say that jax was among the top ten

you are sort of agreeing with me about him being smack dab in the middle at his position.....

I have him lower than ten.....around middle of the pack

eric snow was a below average nba guard
greg anthony was below average nba pg
george hill is a below average nba pg
andre miller is an average nba player and pg but durable and consistent

mckey and gilliam were talented players in nba with much better players at their positions in the league

What I meant was that Jackson arguably could have won regardless of who was his competition with the numbers that he had.

He was among the top 10 constantly at 8th and even going as high as 4th on some lists. Lets say the list was for a single year, I wouldnt call the 8th best point guard in the nba out of all the other pgs that year "average"

I guess I wont change your mind on how you label such players but regardless thanks for the replies and I hope we'll have something to agree on in the future :D

[JohnnyA]

Really seems like you guys agree and are just arguing the semantics of average/mediocre.

If you consider all NBA players then everyone who is a starter is above average. If you consider just the starters then only half the starters are above average (obviously thats a bit too generic but I'm sure you get the point I'm making).

As to mediocre its meaning isn't really as clear cut as your usage of it suggests, I thought this quote was a good one (http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/mediocre.html):

Although some dictionaries accept the meaning of this word as “medium” or “average,” in fact its connotations are almost always more negative. When something is distinctly not as good as it could be, it is mediocre. If you want to say that you are an average student, don’t proclaim yourself mediocre, or you’ll convey a worse impression of yourself than you intend.