Better legacy

[Crafty]

Which legacy you would rather have.

Kobe's or Shaq's?

Kobe: 5 rings, 2 FMVP, 1 Regular season MVP, 15x All-star (maybe 16 this year), 2x scoring champ, 11x All-NBA first, 9x All-defensive first, LAL all-time leading scorer.

Carrer average: 25p / 5.3r / 4.8a

Shaq: 4 rings, 3 FMVP, 1 regular season MVP, 15x All-star, 2x scoring champ, 8x All-NBA first, 3x all-defensive second, 1x ROY.

Carrer average: 23.7p / 10.9r / 2.3b

Shaq and Kobe's Lakers were one of 4 teams to 3-peat.
Shaq was and is one of 2 players to win 3 FMVP in 3 years. (though Jordan did it twice.)

No, I don't have an agenda.

[Andrei89]

Its very close. I would say Shaq because of his 3 FMVP and the fact that he has been scoring champ as a Center.

[NLZ]

Similar accomplishments.. except Kobe's defensive achievements.

[ProfessorMurder]

Non-rapist please.

[moe94]

Non-rapist please.
So neither?

[IllegalD]

Kobe's.

Shaq's peak dominance is superior to Kobe's peak dominance (hell, you could argue it's superior to ANY player in the history of the game). But in my mind, and in the minds of many Shaq will always be seen as a bit of an underachiever.

I know it sounds wrong/weird to say that about a guy who's career and accolades stack up with the All-Time GOATs. But the truth is that Shaq could've been the hands down, no questions asked, ALL-TIME GOAT (yes, even above Jordan), had he had the work ethic and discipline of a Kobe Bryant or Karl Malone.

Shaq's best season is the 1999-2000 season, when he was at the peak of his powers, in the best condition/shape of his life. But after winning his first chip his offseason laziness and complacency is well documented, which no doubt contributed to him having a faster decline than he should've had.

Meanwhile, Kobe is almost at the opposite end of the spectrum. Many people will view him as an "overachiever" in some regards. Because there were many wing players that were naturally more athletic/explosive than he was (Jordan, McGrady, Carter, LeBron, Wade), but Kobe was able to achieve an NBA resume and legendary career that compares to other GOATs because he outworked everyone and maximized the most of his abilities.

Not to mention that Kobe is just more popular globally than Shaq ever was and in the minds of many "casual" global fans Kobe will be seen as the more famous/better/more legendary player (whether it's true or it's media-created is another argument entirely), while Shaq continues to tarnish the perception of his GOAT legacy to younger generations by making a cringe-inducing fool of himself on a weekly basis on Inside the NBA.

[9erempiree]

Shaq's dominance was by chance. That chance was due to his laziness because he was a lazy player, it caused him to gain weight since the Orlando days. By gaining these extra 15-20lbs he became a dominant force. Not saying he wasn't dominant at Orlando but he didn't over power his opponent for position like he did with the Lakers.

This is Shaq during his Orlando days, as you can see he had a strong basketball body:
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/1105/bos_g_shaq92_200.jpg

When he came to L.A., he packed on a few pounds and it's not muscle. His lack of a strong work ethic caused the weight gain and eventually gave him a big body that nobody can defend. Factor that and his skill set, he became a dominant force.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_GlRNzdPxLLw/TTOyBonj_cI/AAAAAAAAAB4/BXnU9B5F4KQ/s1600/shaq-superman.jpg

Eventually winning his 1st championship at this size.
http://cbsla.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/kobe_shaq_71552751.jpg?w=380

If he had any work ethic and kept that slimmer size, I don't think he would win anything but he always had Kobe, so we may never know. His laziness actually helped him.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe's because he's still active and can become the alltime leading playoff scorer.

[Mr. Jabbar]

expect only known kobe haters and heat fans to vote for shaq

kobes legacy by a pretty decent margin

[9erempiree]

Kobe's because he's still active and can become the alltime leading playoff scorer.

Not only that. Kobe looks like he's still in his prime. He is nowhere near his peak but his level of play seem the same in terms of production.

The guy may retire on top where Shaq went on to play for many many teams. 6 to be exact. That is just unacceptable for an all time great in my opinion.

[KingBeasley08]

Shaq. Many players play great for long periods of time. Only one player can say that he had the GOAT peak

[Black and White]

Kobe Bryant, when your name comes up in the same sentence as Jordan, i think you have had a good career.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Kobe Bryant, when your name comes up in the same sentence as Jordan, i think you have had a good career.

:applause:

and when your name comes up in the same sentence as ray allen, wade, bosh, you know you've been ridin' some coattails

[9erempiree]

Shaq. Many players play great for long periods of time. Only one player can say that he had the GOAT peak

Peak is overrated.

I like to look at it as playing balls out just to fizzle out early.

Look at Wade, people like to brag about his peak, but he just wasn't that good so he gave it his all for a couple of years just to be nothing now.

A legendary player will effortlessly dominate through out his career.

If MJ and Kobe would give maximum effort and sacrificed years off their career, their peaks would be off the charts.

[KingBeasley08]

Peak is overrated.

I like to look at it as playing balls out just to fizzle out early.

Look at Wade, people like to brag about his peak, but he just wasn't that good so he gave it his all for a couple of years just to be nothing now.

A legendary player will effortlessly dominate through out his career.

If MJ and Kobe would give maximum effort and sacrificed years off their career, their peaks would be off the charts.
Not just peak but GOAT peak. Better than MJ even. And it's not like Shaq didn't have longevity. He was dominant from his rookie year all the way to 2005. That's 13 years which is damn good

[Deuce Bigalow]

Also Kobe 4th alltime leading scorer (will be 3rd soon), Shaq 5th.
Kobe 3rd alltime leading playoff scorer (could finish 2nd or if very fortunate 1st), Shaq 4th.
Kobe will get a statue at staples center, Shaq might not.
Kobe also has the more memorable moment - the 81 point game which is probably the most memorable performance of alltime (yes I know regular season vs raptors but you have to admit that it's memorable), none of Shaq's moments will be remembered more.

[moe94]

If MJ and Kobe would give maximum effort and sacrificed years off their career, their peaks would be off the charts.

Are you retarded? Jordan had one of the GOAT peaks. Top 3, at worst. :sleeping

[Black and White]

:applause:

and when your name comes up in the same sentence as ray allen, wade, bosh, you know you've been ridin' some coattails

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[BlackVVaves]

Kobe's.

Shaq's peak dominance is superior to Kobe's peak dominance (hell, you could argue it's superior to ANY player in the history of the game). But in my mind, and in the minds of many Shaq will always be seen as a bit of an underachiever.

I know it sounds wrong/weird to say that about a guy who's career and accolades stack up with the All-Time GOATs. But the truth is that Shaq could've been the hands down, no questions asked, ALL-TIME GOAT (yes, even above Jordan), had he had the work ethic and discipline of a Kobe Bryant or Karl Malone.

Shaq's best season is the 1999-2000 season, when he was at the peak of his powers, in the best condition/shape of his life. But after winning his first chip his offseason laziness and complacency is well documented, which no doubt contributed to him having a faster decline than he should've had.

Meanwhile, Kobe is almost at the opposite end of the spectrum. Many people will view him as an "overachiever" in some regards. Because there were many wing players that were naturally more athletic/explosive than he was (Jordan, McGrady, Carter, LeBron, Wade), but Kobe was able to achieve an NBA resume and legendary career that compares to other GOATs because he outworked everyone and maximized the most of his abilities.

Not to mention that Kobe is just more popular globally than Shaq ever was and in the minds of many "casual" global fans Kobe will be seen as the more famous/better/more legendary player (whether it's true or it's media-created is another argument entirely), while Shaq continues to tarnish the perception of his GOAT legacy to younger generations by making a cringe-inducing fool of himself on a weekly basis on Inside the NBA.

This is a very good post.

Gotta agree, as great as Shaq was, he underachieved. Which tells you how tremendously dominant the Big Fella was.

Shaq had the more impressive peak, Kobe will leave with the better legacy.

[9erempiree]

Not just peak but GOAT peak. Better than MJ even. And it's not like Shaq didn't have longevity. He was dominant from his rookie year all the way to 2005. That's 13 years which is damn good

Then you have Kobe who's still dominating today and he's at 18 years in the league. You can even take a couple years off because he came into the league as a teen, so you have 16 seasons of Kobe beasting the league.

Looks like he is still effective and this coming off major injury.

I'm not knocking Shaq but I believe it was by chance how he got so dominant. Shaq's so-called peak came from his offense. He was a huge liability on defense and late in the games.

[BlackVVaves]

Also Kobe 4th alltime leading scorer (will be 3rd soon), Shaq 5th.
Kobe 3rd alltime leading playoff scorer (could finish 2nd or if very fortunate 1st), Shaq 4th.
Kobe will get a statue at staples center, Shaq might not.
Kobe also has the more memorable moment - the 81 point game which is probably the most memorable performance of alltime (yes I know regular season vs raptors but you have to admit that it's memorable), none of Shaq's moments will be remembered more.

If Shaq doesn't get a statue, shame on the Lakers brass.

[9erempiree]

This is a very good post.

Gotta agree, as great as Shaq was, he underachieved. Which tells you how tremendously dominant the Big Fella was.

Shaq had the more impressive peak, Kobe will leave with the better legacy.

His underachievement actually helped him become dominant. He was dominant when he became Fat Shaq.

If fans can make an argument about Shaq being a career ring chasing journeyman then you know his legacy isn't that great.

[K Xerxes]

Then you have Kobe who's still dominating today and he's at 18 years in the league. You can even take a couple years off because he came into the league as a teen, so you have 16 seasons of Kobe beasting the league.

Looks like he is still effective and this coming off major injury.

I'm not knocking Shaq but I believe it was by chance how he got so dominant. Shaq's so-called peak came from his offense. He was a huge liability on defense and late in the games.

LOL, clueless doesn't even begin to describe you.

[9erempiree]

LOL, clueless doesn't even begin to describe you.

You never watched Shaq.

Highlight videos don't depict an entire game.

:facepalm

[moe94]

You never watched Shaq.

Highlight videos don't depict an entire game.

:facepalm

Just because you were not born until 2004 doesn't mean everyone is the same. Quit projecting.

[Crafty]

Kobe's.

Shaq's peak dominance is superior to Kobe's peak dominance (hell, you could argue it's superior to ANY player in the history of the game). But in my mind, and in the minds of many Shaq will always be seen as a bit of an underachiever.

I know it sounds wrong/weird to say that about a guy who's career and accolades stack up with the All-Time GOATs. But the truth is that Shaq could've been the hands down, no questions asked, ALL-TIME GOAT (yes, even above Jordan), had he had the work ethic and discipline of a Kobe Bryant or Karl Malone.

Shaq's best season is the 1999-2000 season, when he was at the peak of his powers, in the best condition/shape of his life. But after winning his first chip his offseason laziness and complacency is well documented, which no doubt contributed to him having a faster decline than he should've had.

Meanwhile, Kobe is almost at the opposite end of the spectrum. Many people will view him as an "overachiever" in some regards. Because there were many wing players that were naturally more athletic/explosive than he was (Jordan, McGrady, Carter, LeBron, Wade), but Kobe was able to achieve an NBA resume and legendary career that compares to other GOATs because he outworked everyone and maximized the most of his abilities.

Not to mention that Kobe is just more popular globally than Shaq ever was and in the minds of many "casual" global fans Kobe will be seen as the more famous/better/more legendary player (whether it's true or it's media-created is another argument entirely), while Shaq continues to tarnish the perception of his GOAT legacy to younger generations by making a cringe-inducing fool of himself on a weekly basis on Inside the NBA.

Yes, i agree with you. Although I'm not a big fan of Kobe I respect a lot his work ethic and how much he sacrifices just to keep playing at a high level. And even after 17 years in the league he still goes out there playing his best night in night out.
Shaq's accolades and dominance were better, but Kobe's way more popular and the whole clutch thing will always put him above Shaq .. but shouldn't ...

Great post. Rep

[sportjames23]

:applause:

and when your name comes up in the same sentence as ray allen, wade, bosh, you know you've been ridin' some coattails

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Nash]

You're starting a franchise tomorrow. Pick one:

-Shaq
-Kobe




















Exactly.

[Marchesk]

Shaq. Many players play great for long periods of time. Only one player can say that he had the GOAT peak

Shaq had a great peak, but I don't know why it's considered higher than Wilt's.

[gts]

You're starting a franchise tomorrow. Pick one:

-Shaq
-Kobe

Exactly.

Big picture? knowing what we know now about how their careers played out on and off the floor

I'll pick Kobe everyday of the week if I'm an owner.. kid's a money making machine

[moe94]

Shaq had a great peak, but I don't know why it's considered higher than Wilt's.
00 Shaq had the GOAT combination of regular season and playoff domination.

[stanlove1111]

Its very close. I would say Shaq because of his 3 FMVP and the fact that he has been scoring champ as a Center.

When I see someone ranking FMVP awards so highly I know I am reading the post of a freaking moron. And it never stops on this board.

Its people voting for one series..Very unimportant.

[Marchesk]

00 Shaq had the GOAT combination of regular season and playoff domination.

Well in 67 Wilt was 24/24/8 on 68.3% and then chased that with a 22/29/9 on 58% in route to a championship. That's the only time a healthy Russel lost, btw.

How is Shaq's better than that? We can't officially compare blocks, but I'm sure Wilt had more. Is it the Finals, because Wilt only scored 18 ppg? He was going up against the GOAT post defender in Thurmond. Still led the series in rebounding, FG% and assists.

[DMAVS41]

Solely on paper and taking into account numbers or dominance or impact...

Too close to call.

But when you take it all into account...Shaq should be ranked over Kobe all time.

[NumberSix]

Shaq. He's universally ranked higher on GOAT lists.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Shaq. He's universally ranked higher on GOAT lists.

number six in wonderland

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Shaq. Better peak (more dominant) and equally impressive prime. Hell, for all the praise Kobe's longevity gets, Shaq played 19 seasons and was effective in all but 1.

[pegasus]

Kobe, and he is not even done. Shaq was too lazy to play at his highest level as long as he should have. It's a shame because he could have been easily the GOAT #2.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Shaq played 19 seasons and was effective in all but 1.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/640/962/d91.gif

[K Xerxes]

Lol at all these work ethic comments. How exactly is that relevant here?

Just because Nate Robinson may work harder than Shaq doesn't mean I'd pick his legacy either. Don't give a shit if he underachieved - he still racked up the accolades and dominated enough to warrant a legitimate claim for the MDE title.

And as for these longevity comments, Shaq had the longest streak of 20-10 seasons in NBA history (13 to be precise)... yes, longer than Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem etc etc. He was consistently a beast from his rookie season well into his 30s.

And there's clearly no discussion to be had about peak level here. Shaq's blows Kobe's out of the water.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lol at all these work ethic comments. How exactly is that relevant here?

Just because Nate Robinson may work harder than Shaq doesn't mean I'd pick his legacy either. Don't give a shit if he underachieved - he still racked up the accolades and dominated enough to warrant a legitimate claim for the MDE title.

And as for these longevity comments, Shaq had the longest streak of 20-10 seasons in NBA history (13 to be precise)... yes, longer than Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem etc etc. He was consistently a beast from his rookie season well into his 30s.

And there's clearly no discussion to be had about peak level here. Shaq's blows Kobe's out of the water.

Yup. Shaq's longevity is REALLY underrated. Reading posts on ISH, you'd think he was a bum before AND after the Laker 3-peat. :lol

[gts]

Lol at all these work ethic comments. How exactly is that relevant here?



Because the thread is about a players legacy. It's all part of the discussion or at least should be.

[K Xerxes]

Because the thread is about a players legacy. It's all part of the discussion or at least should be.

Ok you guys can have the player who worked harder; I'll take the better and more dominant player's legacy.

[9erempiree]

The fact that I can make a case for Shaq being a career ring chasing journeyman says how overrated he can be.

He went on to chase rings with 5 different teams after Orlando.

He was the original Lebron.

[Mr. Jabbar]

He was the original Lebron.

:roll:

[leMVP]

The one who carried the other to 3 rings.

[NumberSix]

The one who carried the other to 3 rings.
Are we sure Pippen doesn't have a better legacy than Jordan doe?

[riseagainst]

The one who carried the other to 3 rings.

not sure if carried is the word.