To all the trolls/haters

[TheReturn]

Personally I'm a fan of all great players in the NBA. I may like one guy's game more than an other player's. I'm a Bulls fan first and foremost and when my Bulls play the Heat for example, I want the Bulls to destroy them. With that said; I appreciate all great players for what they can do on the basketball court.

For this thread I picked Lebron as an example, as there are still quite a few LBJ haters on ISH. Just take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ocoW48KqM8

This dude is insanely good, he's one of the greatest players to ever play this game. Hopefully you guys can learn to appreciate his greatness, because you're missing out. :cheers:

Same goes for the Kobe haters, Rose haters, Melo haters.. and so on.

[Fresh Kid]

so this wind up being a kissing ass post for lebron?:confusedshrug:

[gts]

I'm with you OP, never understood the mindset of hating on the great ones.

[Mr. Jabbar]

i have tremendous appreciation for all time greats, lebron just doesnt happen to be in that group

[nathanjizzle]

dick ride some more.

[hawkfan]

i have tremendous appreciation for all time greats, lebron just doesnt happen to be in that group

Winning two championships doesn't count?
I guess we'll find out on Christmas day when the Heat takes on the Lakers.

[ripthekik]

Winning two championships doesn't count?
I guess we'll find out on Christmas day when the Heat takes on the Lakers.
Winning 2 rings on a stacked team after failing year after year is indeed not impressive. My grandma can joinba stacked team and win a ring too.

[#number6ix#]

Winning 2 rings on a stacked team after failing year after year is indeed not impressive. My grandma can joinba stacked team and win a ring too.
Rip's grandma

http://cdnl.complex.com/mp/620/400/80/0/bb/1/ffffff/c61213ccacac77c1464f3c3712856f6b/images_/assets/images/blog_galleries/2010-11/SPORTS/Cross-Dressing/larry-johnson-grandmama.jpg

[ABfor3]

Winning 2 rings on a stacked team after failing year after year is indeed not impressive. My grandma can joinba stacked team and win a ring too.
This. LeBron had the most inspiring storyline playing for the Cavs, in the city he is from and it would of been one of the greatest moments if he were to deliver a title to his hometown . He could have chosen any players to come and join him in Cleveland but he rather go join Wades team. That's what makes separates him from the Great players IMO.

[K Xerxes]

This. LeBron had the most inspiring storyline playing for the Cavs, in the city he is from and it would of been one of the greatest moments if he were to deliver a title to his hometown . He could have chosen any players to come and join him in Cleveland but he rather go join Wades team. That's what makes separates him from the Great players IMO.

I dont understand this viewpoint. Surely greatness boils down to how good you are on the court and how impactful you are on the game as a totality. Whether he joined another team or brought players to his, how does that affect his ability and impact?

Sure you may not like him or think it was a cheap move, but he is still the player he is, ie one of the most consistently dominant players to ever grace the game, regardless of the jersey he wears.

[Marchesk]

This. LeBron had the most inspiring storyline playing for the Cavs, in the city he is from and it would of been one of the greatest moments if he were to deliver a title to his hometown . He could have chosen any players to come and join him in Cleveland but he rather go join Wades team. That's what makes separates him from the Great players IMO.

Yeah, but then Shaq skipped town to go somewhere more desirable, and Barkley did too to ring chase, yet neither player gets blamed for it. I hate me some Lebron, but I can't blame the dude for choosing Miami over Cleveland.

Also, it might be that Lebron, like Shaq, didn't want to live in a fishbowl any longer. Both Miami and LA have other things going on. You're not the only big fish in town.

James was a free agent. He played out his contract. If Cleveland couldn't make an attractive enough offer, then it was his right to go elsewhere. It's Cleveland we're talking about. Cleveland.

[ABfor3]

Yeah, but then Shaq skipped town to go somewhere more desirable, and Barkley did too to ring chase, yet neither player gets blamed for it. I hate me some Lebron, but I can't blame the dude for choosing Miami over Cleveland.

Also, it might be that Lebron, like Shaq, didn't want to live in a fishbowl any longer. Both Miami and LA have other things going on. You're not the only big fish in town.

James was a free agent. He played out his contract. If Cleveland couldn't make an attractive enough offer, then it was his right to go elsewhere. It's Cleveland we're talking about. Cleveland.
You have some valid points but despite Cleveland being a non attractive city, it was still his home. Dude has all the money he needs to go to LA, Miami, or NY. He already made the finals once, why give it up and not try again but still be the man of your city.

[moe94]

The same people who shit on LeBron for going to Miami and winning are the same people who would have called him a regular season stat stuffer for his career had he stayed in Cleveland and won nothing.

[GOBB]

The same people who still give Lebron shit for going to Miami and winning are the same people who would have called him a regular season stat stuffer for his career had he stayed in Cleveland and won nothing.

Fixed

[zoom17]

The same people who shit on LeBron for going to Miami and winning are the same people who would have called him a regular season stat stuffer for his career had he stayed in Cleveland and won nothing.

True

[gts]

The same people who shit on LeBron for going to Miami and winning are the same people who would have called him a regular season stat stuffer for his career had he stayed in Cleveland and won nothing.

But that's only a handful of idiots, does anybody really take those types of people serious?. Big picture Lebron would still get the praise no matter where he played because he's that kind of talent.

[TheReturn]

Didn't mean to make this into a praise Lebron thread, my point was meant more in general. Players like Kobe, Lebron, Durant, KG, Dirk, Timmy, etc. are special and sometimes even unique. Appreciate them.

[TheMarkMadsen]

so this wind up being a kissing ass post for lebron?:confusedshrug:

:roll:
My exact thoughts

[pegasus]

No one's forcing me to give undue praise to anyone. Try again when someone wins a ring without having to rely on a team stacked with superstar/allstar cast, help from refs, injuries to almost every other opponents' star player, and a miracle shot. I just don't like cheaters.

[All Net]

Aside from Duncan and Hakeem no all time great won more than a few titles without stacked teams. It just doesn't happen. Every great needs help and in Lebron's two titles he did a lot of heavy lifting.. There were times when this great cast didn't produce much. Bosh for one.

[poido123]

No one's forcing me to give undue praise to anyone. Try again when someone wins a ring without having to rely on a team stacked with superstar/allstar cast, help from refs, injuries to almost every other opponents' star player, and a miracle shot. I just don't like cheaters.


This.

We just expect more from a player who has alltime great talents...

The guy has been ass kissed by media and his fans for how 'great' he is for winning championships etc, when all he did was join a team that was bound to win multiple championships and capitalised. The way he has fallen short and fumbled his way through easier playoff runs is not inspiring either. The 2011 meltdown was embarassing and should not be taken lightly.

I can praise Timmy Duncan or Dirk for their championships, but Lebron hasn't even reached that level and may never do so.

[poido123]

Aside from Duncan and Hakeem no all time great won more than a few titles without stacked teams. It just doesn't happen. Every great needs help and in Lebron's two titles he did a lot of heavy lifting.. There were times when this great cast didn't produce much. Bosh for one.


I agree.

But Lebron has made some poor decisions from someone we expect to be 'great'. It wasn't like those Cleveland teams were shit either, they were making the playoffs on a regular basis and even competed for a title at one point.

Please don't go there with heavy lifting in Miami, if Bosh was playing shit, the role players were coming through in a big way. Very rarely has Lebron had to carry the team, in fact certain players on his team have carried him out of some tough spots, moreso than any other great that I've seen in my lifetime.

Everything is context, we can sit here and praise how wonderful Lebron is for winning 2 championships and multiple MVP's, but then you look at the competition, title runs, and his 'actual' performance and you see that the flip side of the coin is quite different.

[moe94]

I no idea a player could lead his team in nearly every single category and you could still argue he was carried to his rings. Denial reaching delusional levels.

I mean, when your argument rests on the back of role players showing up, maybe your argument never had traction to begin with.

[poido123]

I no idea a player could lead his team in nearly every single category and you could still argue he was carried to his rings. Denial reaching delusional levels.

I mean, when your argument rests on the back of role players showing up, maybe your argument never had traction to begin with.


All good players that are proclaimed 'alltime greats' put up the stats no matter who's around them. What a stupid logic.

Role players on the Heat have come up bigtime over the years, can't deny that. Bosh and Wade have also saved Lebron from embarassment at times too, when Lebron has his 'going into his shell' moments.

[Legends66NBA7]

You can't stop trolls/haters. Their going to be here in the present, future, and there were probably a lot of them in the past too. Praising players isn't for everybody.

[Young X]

The same people who shit on LeBron for going to Miami and winning are the same people who would have called him a regular season stat stuffer for his career had he stayed in Cleveland and won nothing.Yup.

[poido123]

The same people who shit on LeBron for going to Miami and winning are the same people who would have called him a regular season stat stuffer for his career had he stayed in Cleveland and won nothing.


Were people saying that about Dirk or Nash, in particular Dirk before he won a championship? No, in fact these two players had respect from most of the fans. Why? Because they did things the right way.

I could never imagine people calling Dirk the 'stat stuffer' had he not won a championship in his career :oldlol:

[K Xerxes]

But that's only a handful of idiots, does anybody really take those types of people serious?. Big picture Lebron would still get the praise no matter where he played because he's that kind of talent.

If LeBron stayed in Cleveland and won no titles... hell even if he won just one title... no one would put him in the top 10 GOAT list at the end of his career. It doesn't happen, regardless of how good you are.

Since moving to Miami, he has put himself in the conversation at the age of 28. The casual fan values success and accomplishments over anything else, even if LeBron may have been just as dominant staying in Cleveland.

[moe94]

All good players that are proclaimed 'alltime greats' put up the stats no matter who's around them. What a stupid logic.

Role players on the Heat have come up bigtime over the years, can't deny that. Bosh and Wade have also saved Lebron from embarassment at times too, when Lebron has his 'going into his shell' moments.

Listen, if you want to, you can literally nitpick every single championship team and diminish and discredit the best player by saying if x didn't happen and y didn't happen exactly the way it did, player z didn't hit this crucial shot, etc

It means nothing. You are very much implying unless LeBron literally scored every single point during every single crucial moment, his accomplishments are irrelevant. You understand this, right?


Were people saying that about Dirk or Nash, in particular Dirk before he won a championship? No, in fact these two players had respect from most of the fans. Why? Because they did things the right way.

I could never imagine people calling Dirk the 'stat stuffer' had he not won a championship in his career :oldlol:

Are you insane? If Dirk never won a ring, he would be lucky to be called a top 5 PF, much less argued towards being better than Malone and KG, which actually gets discussed.

His entire career was ridiculed for his 2007 debacle.

[Legends66NBA7]

Were people saying that about Dirk or Nash, in particular Dirk before he won a championship? No, in fact these two players had respect from most of the fans. Why? Because they did things the right way.

I could never imagine people calling Dirk the 'stat stuffer' had he not won a championship in his career :oldlol:

Instead, people call Dirk a "one-dimensional player" even when he won a ring. But anyways, I can see why he would get more respect winning his title in 2011.

I don't have any idea why Nash doesn't get blame for his teams not even making the Finals, but it's not like he played like trash in the playoffs or anything. Same thing goes for Dirk. It's not like this is Melo were talking about where the blame can be pointed to his numbers.

[poido123]

If LeBron stayed in Cleveland and won no titles... hell even if he won just one title... no one would put him in the top 10 GOAT list at the end of his career. It doesn't happen, regardless of how good you are.

Since moving to Miami, he has put himself in the conversation at the age of 28. The casual fan values success and accomplishments over anything else, even if LeBron may have been just as dominant staying in Cleveland.

Dirk's title is one of the most respected titles among all fans.

That one title may have propelled him a couple of spots higher on the alltime list, purely because of the way it was won and how dominant Dirk was.

Now, compare that to Lebron teaming up and winning with an expected multiple championship winning team and he has to win 3 titles to 1 dirk title to hold similar weight. Of course Lebron is a better player and he will be pushed higher on alltime lists, purely on his talent alone, the championships and accolades are just further proof that he deserves to be up there.

Many of you have forgiven Lebron or accepted the fact that he joined the Heat in that fashion, but I can never respect a player to of taken the shortcuts Lebron has taken, nor place him higher on alltime lists based on accolades alone. Call me a hater, but a lot of people feel the same way.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Were people saying that about Dirk or Nash, in particular Dirk before he won a championship? No, in fact these two players had respect from most of the fans. Why? Because they did things the right way.

I could never imagine people calling Dirk the 'stat stuffer' had he not won a championship in his career :oldlol:

:biggums:

Are you an f'n idiot? Dirk had the reputation of a bonafide choker before he got his ring.

I swear all these idiot who keep babbling on about a player 'getting carried' piss me off. Did Dirk get carried by Jet in game 6 of the Finals? :rolleyes:

[moe94]

Now, compare that to Lebron teaming up and winning with an expected multiple championship winning team and he has to win 3 titles to 1 dirk title to hold similar weight.

http://gifs.gifbin.com/012012/reverse-1326910583_larry_david_reaction.gif

There's just no arguing with this type of logic and irrationality. Let's agree to disagree because you're a cool dude, otherwise.

[Legends66NBA7]

Dirk had the reputation of a bonafide choker before he got his ring.

Also stupid, considering the reality of things.

[poido123]

Listen, if you want to, you can literally nitpick every single championship team and diminish and discredit the best player by saying if x didn't happen and y didn't happen exactly the way it did, player z didn't hit this crucial shot, etc

It means nothing. You are very much implying unless LeBron literally scored every single point during every single crucial moment, his accomplishments are irrelevant. You understand this, right?



Are you insane? If Dirk never won a ring, he would be lucky to be called a top 5 PF, much less argued towards being better than Malone and KG, which actually gets discussed.

His entire career was ridiculed for his 2007 debacle.


Many greats have had help from one time or another in their careers that lead to championships. Only that Lebron's have been a lot more pronounced and a lot more damaging to his reputation, when you take into account that he plays for a stacked team.

Allen's 3 last year was probably the most clutch shot in history(Heat won a title from it), while Lebron had a subpar series up to that point. We all know game 7 he showed everyone how good he can be when he steps up.

I never said Lebron's accomplishments should be irrelevant. But I do think his success should be taken with a grain of salt. After all, his accolades are coming on the back of easy conference runs and a stacked superteam. It's to be expected...

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Also stupid, considering the reality of things.

It was but that's just the reputation he had, and it's mainly due to people like the guy I quoted.

[poido123]

:biggums:

Are you an f'n idiot? Dirk had the reputation of a bonafide choker before he got his ring.

I swear all these idiot who keep babbling on about a player 'getting carried' piss me off. Did Dirk get carried by Jet in game 6 of the Finals? :rolleyes:


Sure, he got criticism, but nothing on the scale of the hate Lebron recieved when choked 2011.

I was answering the point Moe made about Lebron being labeled a 'stat stuffer' if he stayed in Cleveland and never won a title...

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Sure, he got criticism, but nothing on the scale of the hate Lebron recieved when choked 2011.

I was answering the point Moe made about Lebron being labeled a 'stat stuffer' if he stayed in Cleveland and never won a title...

He's right :confusedshrug:

People were already making fun of his career in 2010 when he didn't win a championship with the Cavs team. I don't see how anyone can say winning no rings with Cleveland would've been better than winning two with the Heat. I don't recall him getting any top 10 talks back then I doubt he ever would if he even won one with the Cavs.

[poido123]

http://gifs.gifbin.com/012012/reverse-1326910583_larry_david_reaction.gif

There's just no arguing with this type of logic and irrationality. Let's agree to disagree because you're a cool dude, otherwise.


You quoted 'part' of what I said.

I also explained that Lebron's talent and the fact that he IS better than Dirk will eventually place him higher(which he is now)on alltime lists, when he adds the accolades and accomplishments to his resume(MVP's, titles).

I know you don't appreciate that logic, but there's no denying it. If we are to compare players on alltime lists, the way they won their titles and how dominant they were comes into the conversation, like it or not.

[poido123]

He's right :confusedshrug:

People were already making fun of his career in 2010 when he didn't win a championship with the Cavs team. I don't see how anyone can say winning no rings with Cleveland would've been better than winning two with the Heat. I don't recall him getting any top 10 talks back then I doubt he ever would if he even won one with the Cavs.

If he won two titles as the man on the Cavs, with an average supporting cast? I definately think he would be in the conversation for top 5 alltime. If he won those titles with clutch moments on top of it? No doubt.

[K Xerxes]

Dirk's title is one of the most respected titles among all fans.

That one title may have propelled him a couple of spots higher on the alltime list, purely because of the way it was won and how dominant Dirk was.

Now, compare that to Lebron teaming up and winning with an expected multiple championship winning team and he has to win 3 titles to 1 dirk title to hold similar weight. Of course Lebron is a better player and he will be pushed higher on alltime lists, purely on his talent alone, the championships and accolades are just further proof that he deserves to be up there.

Many of you have forgiven Lebron or accepted the fact that he joined the Heat in that fashion, but I can never respect a player to of taken the shortcuts Lebron has taken, nor place him higher on alltime lists based on accolades alone. Call me a hater, but a lot of people feel the same way.

IMO what LeBron did in 2012 holds just as much weight as what Dirk did in 2011, if not more. His performance against Indiana and Boston were out of this world, particularly his two all time great games under immense pressure, and he took apart OKC in the finals. You can cling to reputation based on names, but what I saw in those series was LeBron dragging his team to victory with his cast either injured, underperforming or only performing in spurts. LeBron was the consistent factor throughout.

[poido123]

IMO what LeBron did in 2012 holds just as much weight as what Dirk did in 2011, if not more. His performance against Indiana and Boston were out of this world, particularly his two all time great games under immense pressure, and he took apart OKC in the finals. You can cling to reputation based on names, but what I saw in those series was LeBron dragging his team to victory with his cast either injured, underperforming or only performing in spurts. LeBron was the consistent factor throughout.

He was under pressure to perform against a very old Celtics team and one past it's best? That's what you term amazing?

Last year he played quite well against the Pacers, but what teams did the Heat contend with before that? It's easier to perform at a higher level when you have been afforded plenty of rest leading up to one big battle which was the Pacers last year and then eventually the Spurs. To me, he was pretty ordinary in the Spurs series, barring one game. Diaw was letting him have open jumpers all series :oldlol:

OKC is a a good matchup for Heat. They both can run and gun, but Heat do it better. Plus Lebron has the size advantage on Durant, and was able to bully him in the post.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

If he won two titles as the man on the Cavs, with an average supporting cast? I definately think he would be in the conversation for top 5 alltime. If he won those titles with clutch moments on top of it? No doubt.

I don't think so. Do people really consider Hakeem top 5?

[chips93]

This. LeBron had the most inspiring storyline playing for the Cavs, in the city he is from and it would of been one of the greatest moments if he were to deliver a title to his hometown . He could have chosen any players to come and join him in Cleveland but he rather go join Wades team. That's what makes separates him from the Great players IMO.

this is all true

but then when the playoffs came around, he played like an all time great, was clearly the best player on his team, and earned both his rings.

i think that made the whole 'lebron is robin to wade's batman' argument moot

[poido123]

I don't think so. Do people really consider Hakeem top 5?

Close enough to it, Hakeem sits at about 7 or 8 on most alltime lists, so yes it's possible for Lebron to of been top 5 alltime had he won rings with Cleveland.

[branslowski]

I agree that It's not fair to diminish LeBron's titles due to cast...But alot of you defending LeBron seem to have an opposite view point of this topic when it purtains to a player who's name rhymes with Colby.

[poido123]

this is all true

but then when the playoffs came around, he played like an all time great, was clearly the best player on his team, and earned both his rings.

i think that made the whole 'lebron is robin to wade's batman' argument moot


I'm still a little confused when people say that Lebron took over in the playoffs. He had games where he took over at times, he had maybe one awesome series and a few series mixed with bad and excellent.

When I think of Lebron, he either goes into his shell and has little to no impact, he plays alright but not enough sustained attack or aggressiveness, or he has one brilliant game or quarter where he does look like an alltime great. The inconsistency there just doesn't make me think he's playing at an alltime great level...

The inconsistency is what bugs me, if he looked like the alpha player in every game he plays and dominates longer stretches, then I would feel more comfortable when people prop him up to be great.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

I'm still a little confused when people say that Lebron took over in the playoffs. He had games where he took over at times, he had maybe one awesome series and a few series mixed with bad and excellent.

When I think of Lebron, he either goes into his shell and has little to no impact, he plays alright but not enough sustained attack or aggressiveness, or he has one brilliant game or quarter where he does look like an alltime great. The inconsistency there just doesn't make me think he's playing at an alltime great level...

The inconsistency is what bugs me, if he looked like the alpha player in every game he plays and dominates longer stretches, then I would feel more comfortable when people prop him up to be great.

'11 Celtics
'11 Bulls
'12 Pacers
'12 Celtics
'12 Thunder
'13 Pacers

These were all great series.

[poido123]

I agree that It's not fair to diminish LeBron's titles due to cast...But alot of you defending LeBron seem to have an opposite view point of this topic when it purtains to a player who's name rhymes with Colby.

That's not surprising.

Kobe's peak > Lebron's.

Kobe was more dominant in his peak, than what I see of Lebron now. Maybe that will change, but as of right now I still have Kobe ahead of Lebron alltime.

[poido123]

'11 Celtics
'11 Bulls
'12 Pacers
'12 Celtics
'12 Thunder
'13 Pacers

These were all great series.

Define great?

Was he 'great' for the entire series? Or for just one or two games that he looked aggressive or maybe 1 quarter...When Lebron is aggressive that's when he looks great, but I don't see it consistently enough in a game or in a series?

'12 Thunder he looked more dominant than KD, but I wouldn't say he was playing on an alltime level. The level I'm referring to is his game 7 against the spurs. If he played like that more often, and more consistently(perhaps over a whole series)I wouldn't be so critical. When he's super aggressive, that's the shit I'm talking about. He's a whole different player, not the passive, fence sitter lebron, but the agressive 'I'm gonna kill' Lebron.

[K Xerxes]

I'm sorry poido, you are using different standards for LeBron than for anyone else. Even in history. The nitpicking is outrageous and you refuse to give LeBron credit for the greatness he has shown in these two past seasons, even though it is something only a handful of people in history have exhibited

Did you even watch MJ in his prime? Even he didn't dominant every game. There were games where he wasn't quite at his best, or stretches in a game where he was quiet and needed others to perform. That's what having a team is, and it's why no one averages 40-50 points anymore. And although there is no denying that LeBron has not performed some of the time (and even let us down) he has been very dominant in games that require him to be. Namely high pressure elimination and game 7s where he is the best performer alongside MJ

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Define great?

Was he 'great' for the entire series? Or for just one or two games that he looked aggressive or maybe 1 quarter...When Lebron is aggressive that's when he looks great, but I don't see it consistently enough in a game or in a series?

'12 Thunder he looked more dominant than KD, but I wouldn't say he was playing on an alltime level. The level I'm referring to is his game 7 against the spurs. If he played like that more often, and more consistently(perhaps over a whole series)I wouldn't be so critical. When he's super aggressive, that's the shit I'm talking about. He's a whole different player, not the passive, fence sitter lebron, but the agressive 'I'm gonna kill' Lebron.

Seriously? He has to average 37/12 for you to consider it a great series? You have incredibly high expectations of him. I don't see you holding Dirk to the same standards. But then again I don't know why I'm having this conversation with you considering you're incapable of talking about Lebron without bias.

[poido123]

I'm sorry poido, you are using different standards for LeBron than for anyone else. Even in history. The nitpicking is outrageous and you refuse to give LeBron credit for the greatness he has shown in these two past seasons, even though it is something only a handful of people in history have exhibited

Did you even watch MJ in his prime? Even he didn't dominant every game. There were games where he wasn't quite at his best, or stretches in a game where he was quiet and needed others to perform. That's what having a team is, and it's why no one averages 40-50 points anymore. And although there is no denying that LeBron has not performed some of the time (and even let us down) he has very dominant in games that require him to be. Namely high pressure elimination and game 7s.


Yes I did. Referring to my post above, I am pointing out the inconsistency of Lebron. MJ's impact was felt in nearly all games, but I don't get that same type of feeling with Lebron. I could never question MJ's ability to make some type impact in a playoff game, whether it be tenacious defense or out of this world scoring or just always leading by example. He didn't have long periods of fence sitting or passiveness, he was always in kill mode. The consistency of kill mode is not what I see in Lebron, yet.

The times MJ was quiet or not as his best were not pronounced and they certainly weren't a sign of inconsistency. People knew Jordan would bring it every game.

[poido123]

Seriously? He has to average 37/12 for you to consider it a great series? You have incredibly high expectations of him. I don't see you holding Dirk to the same standards. But then again I don't know why I'm having this conversation with you considering you're incapable of talking about Lebron without bias.

That's a bit rich coming from one of the biggest Lebron stans on here :oldlol:

Through all of my posts, I have credited Lebron with what he does do or what he is capable of. Because I disagree that he should be placed where other people place him? That somehow tranlates to me having a Lebron bias, well that would mean anybody who points out Lebron's flaws has a Lebron hate agenda...

Why would I hold Dirk to the same standards, since he doesn't get put into GOAT discussions? He is placed right where he belongs. Lebron is under more scrutiny because he is in GOAT discussions for the future, plus many people are overrating him based on his recent success. People criticise Lebron hard, not because he is good, but because he gets severely overrated and the decisions he's made do not reflect a 'champion'.

[branslowski]

That's not surprising.

Kobe's peak > Lebron's.

Kobe was more dominant in his peak, than what I see of Lebron now. Maybe that will change, but as of right now I still have Kobe ahead of Lebron alltime.

LeBron has no reason to be ahead of Kobe on a All Time list. Only thing he has over Kobe is regular season MVPs.

[zoom17]

LeBron has no reason to be ahead of Kobe on a All Time list. Only thing he has over Kobe is regular season MVPs.

Brilliant reasoning:rolleyes:

[Jameerthefear]

LeBron has no reason to be ahead of Kobe on a All Time list. Only thing he has over Kobe is regular season MVPs.
and efficiency. and overall impact. better passer and rebounder. unselfish. better on game 7s. must i go on

[moe94]

That's not surprising.

Kobe's peak > Lebron's.

Kobe was more dominant in his peak, than what I see of Lebron now. Maybe that will change, but as of right now I still have Kobe ahead of Lebron alltime.

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2674/jgb.gif

[branslowski]

and efficiency. and overall impact. better passer and rebounder. unselfish. better on game 7s. must i go on

Efficiency? If you say this then LeBron>>>Jordan. LeBron is also a better passer and rebounder than Jordan aswell...Unselfish?? :roll: Game 7s?? Arbitrary selected stat...So basically you have to have your team lose 3 games in a series to to play in these right?:oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

and efficiency. and overall impact. better passer and rebounder. unselfish. better on game 7s. must i go on

Lebron isn't a better passer.

Kobe is 5-1 in game 7's which is all that matter when it comes to a game 7.

Better rebounder? Sure, Lebrons 6'9 and plays power forward for stretches in games while Kobe is a shooting guard who plays point guard for stretches of the game. Averaging 2-3 more rebounds per game isn't really something to alot of weight on

[moe94]

Lebron isn't a better passer.


I've heard it all.

[Black and White]

and efficiency. and overall impact. better passer and rebounder. unselfish. better on game 7s. must i go on

:biggums: How is this even a method for comparison when Jordan never played a game 7 in the finals????

It would mean your team would have to be bad enough to get stretched out to seven games to compare this.

[Marchesk]

I've heard it all.

Jordan did have that 8 assist season. Keep in mind that Jordan played SG with Pippen as point forward for much of his career. Lebron plays point forward. Different roles.

[moe94]

Jordan did have that 8 assist season. Keep in mind that Jordan played SG with Pippen as point forward for much of his career. Lebron plays point forward. Different roles.

He was talking about Kobe, not that it makes a sliver of a difference. Both assertions are beyond asinine.

[poido123]

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2674/jgb.gif

I don't agree with you on many things, but this was too funny :lol :oldlol:

[Jameerthefear]

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2674/jgb.gif
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Dictator]

i have tremendous appreciation for all time greats, lebron just doesnt happen to be in that group

:lol :roll:

[Solefade]

Lebron isn't a better passer.

Kobe is 5-1 in game 7's which is all that matter when it comes to a game 7.

Better rebounder? Sure, Lebrons 6'9 and plays power forward for stretches in games while Kobe is a shooting guard who plays point guard for stretches of the game. Averaging 2-3 more rebounds per game isn't really something to alot of weight on

Lol this right here is the ultimate Kobe dick rider.


LeBron fans can admit that Kobe is a better shooter but Kobe fans can't admit that LeBron's a better passer :roll:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Lol this right here is the ultimate Kobe dick rider.


LeBron fans can admit that Kobe is a better shooter but Kobe fans can't admit that LeBron's a better passer :roll:

Passing the ball more doesn't make you a better passer.

Kobe makes more 3's than Steve Novak but Kobe isn't a better 3 point shooter than Steven Novak

[Solefade]

Passing the ball more doesn't make you a better passer.

Kobe makes more 3's than Steve Novak but Kobe isn't a better 3 point shooter than Steven Novak


Right. So how do you determine if Kobe is a better passer then? :lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

Right. So how do you determine if Kobe is a better passer then? :lol

Kobes passes put players in a position to be successful where as alot of Lebrons assist come from kicking it out to spot up shooters. Lebrons great at driving and then kicking it out to a knock down shooter, his clevland teams were designed for this.

Both Kobe and Lebron are great at dishing on the drive but Kobe has a special knack for setting up his big man with easy looks, look at a guy like Gasol who when traded to the Lakers mid season saw a 7% bump in his FG% partially due to the looks Kobe created for him.

Both are great passes, but for me ill take Kobe, Lebron has the ball in his hands more and will pound the ball the length of the shot clock swinging the ball looking for assist at times, so his extra 2 - 3 assist per game isn't convincing m he's a better passer.

Here's a nice video of some older Kb24 passing.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6ye3D2nagUs&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6ye3D2nagUs

[poido123]

Kobes passes put players in a position to be successful where as alot of albedo a assist come from kicking it out to spot up shooters. Lebrons great at driving and then kicking it out to a knock down shooter, his clevland teams were designed for this.

Both Kobe and Lebron are great at dishing on the drive but Kobe has a special knack for setting up his big man with easy looks, look at a guy like Gasol who when traded to the Lakers mid season saw a 7% bump in his FG% partially due to the looks Kobe created for him.

Both are great passes, but for me ill take Kobe, Lebron has the ball in his hands more and will pound the ball the length of the shot clock swinging the ball looking for assist at times, so his extra 2 - 3 assist per game isn't convincing m he's a better passer.

Here's a nice video of some older Kb24 passing.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6ye3D2nagUs&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6ye3D2nagUs


You won't be popular on your opinion, but I can see an argument there for better passer. Most people don't understand the usage and role part that contributes to a player's reputation as a good passer.

If Kobe set his mind to pass first and score second, I have no doubt he would average more assists than Lebron and also put up 20 odd points to go with it. Kobe has the ability to make plays with his passing, moreso than Lebron. Many of Lebron's assists come off fast breaks(easy assists) and kick out to the shooters as you mentioned which he's very good at...

[Jameerthefear]

lebron is a better passer than kobe. this isn't even really debatable.

[K Xerxes]

Yeah when people try to debate Kobe is a better passer than LeBron, it's time to step away.

LeBron has a claim for best non-PG passer of all time (although I think Bird is better)... Kobe has absolutely zero claim for that title.

[TheMarkMadsen]

You won't be popular on your opinion, but I can see an argument there for better passer. Most people don't understand the usage and role part that contributes to a player's reputation as a good passer.

If Kobe set his mind to pass first and score second, I have no doubt he would average more assists than Lebron and also put up 20 odd points to go with it. Kobe has the ability to make plays with his passing, moreso than Lebron. Many of Lebron's assists come off fast breaks(easy assists) and kick out to the shooters as you mentioned which he's very good at...

Absolutely. He averaged more assist (albeit only by .1) than Lebron last year for the second half of the season and still put up 27ppg

[poido123]

lebron is a better passer than kobe. this isn't even really debatable.

Is it the no look passes to a wide open man under the basket? :rolleyes:
Is it the bullet kick out passes to the shooters? What is it exactly that makes Lebron a better passer. More assists? Sure, his role and the type of team that he has gets him those assists.

People don't understand that Lebron gets alot of his assists off fastbreaks and kickouts, nothing special.

Kobe gets his assists from precision passing and making plays to get a man an opportunity to score. His team doesn't get the easy assists off the fastbreak either. Give Kobe Lebron's team and a pass first mentality he would average 8-10 assists per game

[Jameerthefear]

Is it the no look passes to a wide open man under the basket? :rolleyes:
Is it the bullet kick out passes to the shooters? What is it exactly that makes Lebron a better passer. More assists? Sure, his role and the type of team that he has gets him those assists.

People don't understand that Lebron gets alot of his assists off fastbreaks and kickouts, nothing special.

Kobe gets his assists from precision passing and making plays to get a man an opportunity to score. His team doesn't get the easy assists off the fastbreak either. Give Kobe Lebron's team and a pass first mentality he would average 8-10 assists per game
i don't think anyone should have to explain why lebron is a better passer than kobe. it's really honestly not debatable. if you made a thread about it right now 95% of posters would say LBJ is better.

[TheMarkMadsen]

i don't think anyone should have to explain why lebron is a better passer than kobe. it's really honestly not debatable. if you made a thread about it right now 95% of posters would say LBJ is better.

So you can't make an argument for yourself and instead rely on the argumentum ad populum fallacy

Nice

[poido123]

i don't think anyone should have to explain why lebron is a better passer than kobe. it's really honestly not debatable. if you made a thread about it right now 95% of posters would say LBJ is better.

That's what Magic Johnson comparisons do to people's perception.

I haven't seen anyone explain why he's a better passer, only heard people say it's not debateable.

It's the same shit people say about Jordan being an ordinary passer, but simply isn't true if you give him a passing role, as evidenced when he played PG.

[K Xerxes]

Is it the no look passes to a wide open man under the basket? :rolleyes:
Is it the bullet kick out passes to the shooters? What is it exactly that makes Lebron a better passer. More assists? Sure, his role and the type of team that he has gets him those assists.

Bullet passes, no look passes, passes (and decisions) in transition, cross court passes. I mean... you name it, I've watched a lot of both players and Lebron is superior.

What LeBron might have a claim for the best ever is kicking out when driving to the hoop. His athleticism, size and court vision makes him devastating in this scenario with shooters spread out, especially as he's so great at finishing that he draws defenders in.


People don't understand that Lebron gets alot of his assists off fastbreaks and kickouts, nothing special.

As if this doesn't count. :oldlol:


Kobe gets his assists from precision passing and making plays to get a man an opportunity to score. His team doesn't get the easy assists off the fastbreak either. Give Kobe Lebron's team and a pass first mentality he would average 8-10 assists per game

LeBron is a better precision passer. Not saying that Kobe isn't a good passer when he wants to be, but he's not LeBron. Just stop it, really.

Give Kobe LeBron's team and Kobe doesn't get as many assists because he can't pass or facilitate like LeBron.

And assists stats help his cause. I mean, your argument is too wishy washy. What's stopping me posting a link of Durant passing highlights (he has some good ones) and saying he's the GOAT passer... only thing that's stopping him is his role on the team? Come on.

[Jameerthefear]

So you can't make an argument for yourself and instead rely on the argumentum ad populum fallacy

Nice
Lebron right now can make passes that no one can make. Shit that he does nonchalantly that even CP3 or Rondo couldn't do. On the regular. Like literally I expect fans to be at least logical. It's not logical to argue Kobe over Lebron passing-wise because it just isn't true. We're talking about a guy that makes crosscourt passes, no look passes, makes great passes in tough/clutch situations, behind the back fvcking everything. It isn't debatable.

[poido123]

Bullet passes, no look passes, passes (and decisions) in transition, cross court passes. I mean... you name it, I've watched a lot of both players and Lebron is superior.

What LeBron might have a claim for the best ever is kicking out when driving to the hoop. His athleticism, size and court vision makes him devastating in this scenario with shooters spread out, especially as he's so great at finishing that he draws defenders in.



As if this doesn't count. :oldlol:



LeBron is a better precision passer. Not saying that Kobe isn't a good passer when he wants to be, but he's not LeBron. Just stop it, really.

Give Kobe LeBron's team and Kobe doesn't get as many assists because he can't pass or facilitate like LeBron.

And assists stats help his cause. I mean, your argument is too wishy washy. What's stopping me posting a link of Durant passing highlights (he has some good ones) and saying he's the GOAT passer... only thing that's stopping him is his role on the team? Come on.


I never said that fast break assists don't count, I was saying that those assists are alot easier to get. Kobe doesn't play on a team where he can cherry pick easy passes to players on the fast break for dunks or easy kick out passes for good shooters. Most of his assists have to be earnt.

I see Lebron cherry picking easy assists on kickout passes and fastbreaks, but nothing like a bird or magic earnt assist as an example...

Kobe had 13 assists the other day, and many of them were from the ability of his passing, not just cherry picking passes.

[poido123]

Lebron right now can make passes that no one can make. Shit that he does nonchalantly that even CP3 or Rondo couldn't do. On the regular. Like literally I expect fans to be at least logical. It's not logical to argue Kobe over Lebron passing-wise because it just isn't true. We're talking about a guy that makes crosscourt passes, no look passes, makes great passes in tough/clutch situations, behind the back fvcking everything. It isn't debatable.

Behind the back to a jumpshooter? What is special about that? Cp3, rondo, Kobe can all do that. They can all penetrate and do a kickout pass, no look passes. This overrating of Lebron is getting annoying. ESPN has really convinced you lot :rolleyes:

[Black and White]

Lebron right now can make passes that no one can make. Shit that he does nonchalantly that even CP3 or Rondo couldn't do. On the regular. Like literally I expect fans to be at least logical. It's not logical to argue Kobe over Lebron passing-wise because it just isn't true. We're talking about a guy that makes crosscourt passes, no look passes, makes great passes in tough/clutch situations, behind the back fvcking everything. It isn't debatable.

:facepalm Rondo is a better passer tho

[TheMarkMadsen]

Lebron right now can make passes that no one can make. Shit that he does nonchalantly that even CP3 or Rondo couldn't do. On the regular. Like literally I expect fans to be at least logical. It's not logical to argue Kobe over Lebron passing-wise because it just isn't true. We're talking about a guy that makes crosscourt passes, no look passes, makes great passes in tough/clutch situations, behind the back fvcking everything. It isn't debatable.

Please show me these passes Lebron makes that no one can make

So your definition of who's a better passer is who can throw behind the back passes and no look passes?

You sound like a Kobe fan propping up Kobe for his sweet looming fadeaways :lol

Nothing you said was any type of break down on the differences in how Kobe and Lebron led offenses are run and how they accumulate assist individually. All you said was Lebrons passes look cool.

You got to watch both players not just one to compare to two

Kobe can do all those things you mentioned and more. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6ye3D2nagUs&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6ye3D2nagUs

[branslowski]

Lebron right now can make passes that no one can make. Shit that he does nonchalantly that even CP3 or Rondo couldn't do. On the regular. Like literally I expect fans to be at least logical. It's not logical to argue Kobe over Lebron passing-wise because it just isn't true. We're talking about a guy that makes crosscourt passes, no look passes, makes great passes in tough/clutch situations, behind the back fvcking everything. It isn't debatable.

This post.:facepalm

Debating bball is not your strong suit. Stick to whining about posters and posting Anime bro.

[Jameerthefear]

i can post highlight videos too. doesn't mean anything.

[KingBeasley08]

So now we got Kobe stans arguing that Kobe's a better passer than Lebron? I've seen it all now

[Solefade]

Passing the ball more doesn't make you a better passer.

Kobe makes more 3's than Steve Novak but Kobe isn't a better 3 point shooter than Steven Novak

LeBron's a better shooter. Just because Kobe shoots more doesn't mean he's a better shooter. :cheers:


#kobetardlogic

[Wang Zhi Zhi]

So now we got Kobe stans arguing that Kobe's a better passer than Lebron? I've seen it all now
tbh

[KingBeasley08]

LeBron's a better shooter. Just because Kobe shoots more doesn't mean he's a better shooter. :cheers:
With their logic, I'd argue LeBron's a much better scorer than Kobe

[Black and White]

i can post highlight videos too. doesn't mean anything.

Fair enough, i just took issue with you suggesting hes a better passer than Rondo.

[Jameerthefear]

Fair enough, i just took issue with you suggesting hes a better passer than Rondo.
Hm. It's arguable. I actually said he can make more passes than Rondo, which is true. Rondo is an underrated passer on here though.

[Black and White]

Hm. It's arguable. I actually said he can make more passes than Rondo, which is true. Rondo is an underrated passer on here though.

I don't think its arguable at all, Rondos court vison and iq are def better than LeBron, Rondo is a better passer hands down.

[poido123]

I don't think its arguable at all, Rondos court vison and iq are def better than LeBron, Rondo is a better passer hands down.


Lebron on Rondo's level of passing? :oldlol: I've heard it all.

[Jameerthefear]

Lebron on Rondo's level of passing? :oldlol: I've heard it all.
... you're letting your hate cloud your judgement.

[Solefade]

I don't think its arguable at all, Rondos court vison and iq are def better than LeBron, Rondo is a better passer hands down.

Lol @ all Laker fans saying both Kobe and Rondo are better passers than LeBron. You honestly believe that Rondo is UNARGUABLY a better passer than LBJ? :roll:

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you never give credit where credit is due? This is my biggest problem with Laker fans.

[Black and White]

Lol @ all Laker fans saying both Kobe and Rondo are better passers than LeBron. You honestly believe that Rondo is UNARGUABLY a better passer than LBJ? :roll:

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you never give credit where credit is due? This is my biggest problem with Laker fans.

Where does it say im a Laker fan? and where did i say Kobe is a better passer? I was only talking about Rondo

[poido123]

Lol @ all Laker fans saying both Kobe and Rondo are better passers than LeBron. You honestly believe that Rondo is UNARGUABLY a better passer than LBJ? :roll:

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you never give credit where credit is due? This is my biggest problem with Laker fans.

Except he's a celtic fan.

Rondo is a better passer than Lebron, Rondo was averaging over 10 assists a game with a half court offense. Think about that, no cherry picking assists on the fastbreaks :eek:

[Solefade]

Where does it say im a Laker fan? and where did i say Kobe is a better passer? I was only talking about Rondo

Oh okay, you're just a LeBron hater then. Regardless of what you are, your arguments are stupid.

[eriX]

You were a better poster before poido... i honestly don't think even some of the kobe stans were say he is a better passer than lebron.

[Black and White]

Oh okay, you're just a LeBron hater then. Regardless of what you are, your arguments are stupid.

I don't hate LeBron, he's the best player in the world, I'm just saying hes not a better passer than Rondo, is something wrong with that?

[HoopsFanNumero1]

You were a better poster before poido... i honestly don't think even some of the kobe stans were say he is a better passer than lebron.

Dude's just sad his Bulls can't beat the Heat anymore so he just spends his time actively rooting for any other team to beat them. Pretty sad to watch.

[poido123]

You were a better poster before poido... i honestly don't think even some of the kobe stans were say he is a better passer than lebron.

I'm not here to appease anyone, my dislike for the Heat/Lebron should not be confused with my criticism of Lebron or the Heat. People can dislike a team/player purely because they go about things the wrong way, which is how I see it.

I don't hate Lebron or dislike Lebron because he's a good player? That's silly. People get bothered when you criticise their favourite player, they call you a hater or biased etc.

The Heats fans here are overly sensitive too, like HoopsNumero who has no other contributions to ISH other than Lebron topics.

[poido123]

Dude's just sad his Bulls can't beat the Heat anymore so he just spends his time actively rooting for any other team to beat them. Pretty sad to watch.

I accept that fate, Rose went down and so did the Bulls chances, life goes on.

I see the positive in that we have an outside chance to get a good draft pick if we decide to blow it up, or we finally trade away Deng and blow it up.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

I'm not here to appease anyone, my dislike for the Heat/Lebron should not be confused with my criticism of Lebron or the Heat. People can dislike a team/player purely because they go about things the wrong way, which is how I see it.

I don't hate Lebron or dislike Lebron because he's a good player? That's silly. People get bothered when you criticise their favourite player, they call you a hater or biased etc.

The Heats fans here are overly sensitive too, like HoopsNumero who has no other contributions to ISH other than Lebron topics.

I've criticized Lebron myself many times before for being passive so why would I get bothered by it? What I called you bias for was when you said he needs to play like he did in game 7 against the Spurs throughout an entire series for it to be considered great. Like, how many people averaged 37/12 or more in a series? Those are absurd standards and by that logic very few players have had great series.

[Black and White]

I've criticized Lebron myself many times before for being passive so why would I get bothered by it? What I called you bias for was when you said he needs to play like he did in game 7 against the Spurs throughout an entire series for it to be considered great. Like, how many people averaged 37/12 or more in a series? Those are absurd standards and by that logic very few players have had great series.

You seem like a level headed poster, can you at least say Rondo is a better passer than LeBron?

[HoopsFanNumero1]

You seem like a level headed poster, can you at least say Rondo is a better passer than LeBron?

No doubt. He's one of the best PGs in the league, and always ups his game in the playoffs.

[Black and White]

No doubt. He's one of the best PGs in the league, and always ups his game in the playoffs.

Thank you, thats all i was trying to do, its like the LeBron fans can't admit that other players are better than him in some areas, that doesn't make them better than him overall but no player is perfect.

[poido123]

I've criticized Lebron myself many times before for being passive so why would I get bothered by it? What I called you bias for was when you said he needs to play like he did in game 7 against the Spurs throughout an entire series for it to be considered great. Like, how many people averaged 37/12 or more in a series? Those are absurd standards and by that logic very few players have had great series.


You and I watched the games. We both know what I mean when I'm talking about that game 7. His aggressiveness and killer mode is what I'm referring to, not the stats man. When he's playing like that, I see a great player, when I see that passive shit, not wanting the ball in clutch moments etc, I start to see a good player that's scared of being great.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

You and I watched the games. We both know what I mean when I'm talking about that game 7. His aggressiveness and killer mode is what I'm referring to, not the stats man. When he's playing like that, I see a great player, when I see that passive shit, not wanting the ball in clutch moments etc, I start to see a good player that's scared of being great.

All right, I can understand that. Sometimes stats aren't reflective of the game played by that person. But for all of the six series I listed on page 4, he had great stats and I felt he played the game he should have played.

[poido123]

All right, I can understand that. Sometimes stats aren't reflective of the game played by that person. But for all of the six series I listed on page 4, he had great stats and I felt he played the game he should have played.

:cheers:

Look, there are times that he needs to take a back seat when his supporting cast is playing well, the thing i'm criticising is when they do need him, often he can't be found. Like when they need him to take over a game and be aggressive.

Anyways, I think I've said enough :lol

[TheReturn]

Typical ISH to turn even this thread in a Kobe vs Lebron thread. :lol

[pauk]

For this thread I picked Lebron as an example, as there are still quite a few LBJ haters on ISH. Just take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ocoW48KqM8
.

Sick video.

[Legends66NBA7]

For the record, OP is biased for the current era over other eras, particularly star players.