Kblazes long boring post on offense. [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

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Kblaze8855

12-17-2013, 01:25 PM

Bit of a companion essay to my last long boring topic on defense:

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=316855

I have nothing to do, nowhere to be, and no plans until late this afternoon so....these 15 with those 11 I think will give you a pretty good idea what im looking for when I judge a basketball player. at the end I may add up a few greats and see who has the most qualities I desire. I suspect it will be Jordan, Bird, or Bill Russell.

Split in two because I suspect its too long for one post...

1.

Ability to prosper when the defense decides to give you an aspect of your game they decide isnt as effective. Few players have it all. Most...even most greats....are lacking somewhere. Perhaps they cant finish among the trees, cant shoot outside, cant go left, or cant play a quicker man.

In this day of 100% coverage and mobile devices coaches know you cant shoot from the baseline, cant go to your off hand, or always pop on the pick and never roll. They know that when you drive its to kick and not to score. So they know you. They know the position to put you in.

Some players just laugh and prosper anyway.

Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Steve Nash, and a few others stand out.

Nash spends all year passing, finding cutters, driving and kicking, and running that trademark circle through the lane and back out looking to pass it off. So the Mavs decide to play him as a passer and see if he can beat them if they stay home and dont give him the lanes to find guys. Soooooooo...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoYOs2_3i2Y

48 points.

Jordan rules. Pistons decide to push MJ left, cut off the baseline, hammer him when he drives, and keep a fresh man on him since he wore guys out and feasted when they lost a step. Legend suggests it stopped him but it never really did. It roughed him up while he dropped 40-60. It slowed him down early. And even then it slowed him to 27/9/8(1989). It made him a passer. A drive and kick guy more than he would have liked as he watched open guys miss the resulting jumpers. But as great players do he adjusted.

It was nothing the Bucks didnt do the whole back half of the 80s while he scored 40 on them too.

With teammates who didnt shrink it wouldnt have even slowed him to begin with. Once the Bulls came into form it was just talk. Same gameplan. Same jordan approach. But BJ, Hodges, Pippen, and Paxon started making jumpers and that was that.

Long story short....I mean the ability to succeed when the defense feels it set you up for failure.

2.

Passing. Do not read that as "Assists". I mean the passes in the course of running an offense. Entry passing. Outlet Passing. General ball movement. Many players were great as aspects of passing but never get mentioned as among the great passers because assists are what get you credit. But Charles Oakley, Scott Skiles, John Starks, Brian Shaw, and even guys like Shaq. Great passers. Oakley might have been the best lob thrower and outlet passer in the NBA for a while. Starks, Shaw, and Skiles entry passing never get talked about but it was key to a lot of teams. Larry Bird might have been the best outlet passer in the NBA at one time and perhaps had no non PG peer as an entry passer ever. Most passes are not to a shooter/finisher.

3. Getting to and finishing at the basket.

Jordan, Lebron, Grant Hill, Wade, and Nique style.

Being able to look a guy in the face and walk by him and score on his help defense....If you need it explained why id look for that take up a new sport.

4. Outside shooting. Not just 3s. Outside shooting. Not the same thing. I mean generally being able to score from parts of the floor the defense isnt trying to prevent you from finding yourself. Even teams that run you off the line arent trying to concede the paint. You dont let people drive. If it comes down to a layup or giving up a long jumper teams give up the long jumper and hope you miss.

The people who dont miss....useful. Not just for the obvious reason..the points. But for the spacing. A term ive come to hate lately since so many people use it acting like its something you need out of every position to the extent they want 7 footers taking 3s and pullup jumpers. But "That will never work! Where is the spacing!?!?!" antics aside....its an aspect to consider.

5.

Off the ball movement and positioning. How many times have you seen Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, or Allen Iverson just pop open for a big shot and wondered "How do you let ___ get open there!". It really really isnt the other team not knowing what is gonna happen. Its guys who spend a career making you pay when you turn to see where a pass is going, if a shot is made, or just dont keep a hand on them doing what they do. Ray Allen knows where he is and what to do at all times. Which is why he doesnt need to look down to know where the 3 point line is and how much room he has:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2808499/allen3.gif

It isnt defenders being idiots(usually). Its tireless movement, understanding where to go, and quickness(more than speed really...you never get to full speed in the halfcourt). They get open 10000 times a career when everyone knows they are looking to catch and shoot not because they play off stars who draw the attention like a role player. But because knowing they are doing it doesnt help you stop it when they only need 9 inches of space and you to look into the lane for a half second on a pass inside that quickly gets kicked back out to them....9 feet from where you left them. It takes effort and discipline that most just dont have.

And since positioning is the issue im gonna also include setting screens here. Easily the most overlooked aspect of offense to me. Especially these days when it seems it isnt just pointguards scoring mostly off picks. Lebron, Durant, Wade, and others have turned it into a real weapon.

Dale Davis, Wes Unseld, KG(moving screens usually) and even John Stockton deserve a mention here. Im not sure it needs its own section....but its sure an important aspect of positioning so it had to be mentioned.

6. Leadership.

Im not gonna bring out the Magics and Bird on this one...instead ill mention someone known more for his offense.

Scottie Pippen. I heard Steve Kerr say once that Pippen was able to do anything he wanted. Slash, shoot, post up, run the floor.....do it all. But all he cared about was making sure that the guys who could only do one thing.....were put in position to do it. So shooters who have no had a good look in a while he will tell them hes going to...and then deliver on....getting them an open shot.

I was reading about Chauncey Billups relationship with Brandon Jennings and him trying to teach him that he doesnt always have to do as hes told(amusing thought that Jennings might think he does). That hes the point...that he has veto power over even the coach on the flow. To make himself and his teammates comfortable if he sees something that goes against the offense the coach sets up. Goes out there and shows him how its done.

Thats what I mean by leadership. Not just scoring the most points. Its a big abstract...but it counts.

7. Clutch play. Which as time goes by I feel is less and less mental and more an issue of skill set. Also...clutchness is not an offense only issue. So instead im gonna word this as....

Performing on command.

Being able to do what makes you great on command isnt always an issue of your mindstate. Karl Malone for one....nobody doubts that hes great. But what made him great was his hands, finishing in traffic, running the floor, chemistry with John Stockton and the consistency those things granted him.

But he couldnt use any of them to get you a single shot on his own under pressure. Not at a rate equal to his status in history. He made a lot of fadeaways and jab step jumpers. But not at a rate that would make him the top 20 all time player as he is now. That was what he fell back on. Not what made him great.

Dirk....overall a worse player. Worse defender, rebounder, and passer. Scored less as well. But what he does....can get me a shot any time I want it. I cant assume that:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/65fb934af240be5b4804a3db026de810/tumblr_miwu18PPB51renuivo1_500.gif

http://i.imgur.com/5vUqoxL.gif

http://i.minus.com/i1pa9m3BItQyQ.gif

will happen with 6 seconds left down 1.

It might happen 6 times a game giving him 12 points, to add to his going 9-13 from the line on fouls from similar plays, and 2-6 on midrange jumpers, with a nice post move for a layup mixed in to give him 27 points.

But I cant count on it at any given moment. I can count on Dirk getting this shot 90% of the time I ask him to:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/2514605/dirk-nowitzki-o.gif

http://i44.tinypic.com/2m9vgx.gif

He wont make it every time. But he will make it at a rate that is legendary. He will make it often enough that if I give him a good team that only needs him to come through with 4 out 6 of them in key moments to win a series...I have faith he can give me that.

And while it doesnt result in totals as staggering as a Karl Malone....I think it requires a less dominant supporting cast to get wins that matter.

Teanett

12-17-2013, 01:28 PM

what does this have to do with melo?
:confusedshrug:

Kblaze8855

12-17-2013, 01:36 PM

8. Offensive rebounding:

I'll keep this one short.

Dennis Rodman in the 96 finals may have been the key to a ring. One game he had 11 offensive rebounds in a 4 point win....he had 7 offensive rebounds in a quarter. And that wasnt even his only 11 offensive rebound game we won in that finals...he had 11 more in game 6. He had 40 offensive rebounds that series. Kemp was the only Sonic who had 40 rebounds....period.

Tyson Chandler the last 5-6 years mastering the tip out to a teammate not the other team...we have all seen this being the turning point. If the Kings had Tyson Chandler under the basket in 02 Horry never makes that 3....because Tyson tips it to a King.

Rajon Rondo has been making some bigman look bad then getting a key basket once a month for years.

http://i39.tinypic.com/feqb61.gif

^
It matters.

9. Playmaking. This is where assists come in.

I could explain with a string of Magic Johnson gifs but im gonna spare you the page loading time and assume you know what I mean. Especially the something out of nothing plays. Plays that have no business being made but guys like Magic, Stockton, Nash, and even Lebron, Manu, and so on will make now and then.

Im sure we all love a good:

http://i.imgur.com/oD3qgW0.gif

10. Craftiness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-42c470-MjM

^
Dennis Johnson and Larry Bird did that at least one other time I remember...and we didnt see as many games back then. They probably did it all the time. Cant always make the physical plays. Gotta out think the opponent too.

Which reminds me....Michael Jordan in his youth had a tactic for blocking slower guards. He would take a bad angle on a pass....or...just pretend to get beaten...only to swoop in and block the open shot from behind. It worked all the time. DJ was getting old. So MJ tried it. DJ blows by like he just saw a chance to score. MJ closes from behind in the blink of an eye. DJ pump fakes...MJ flys by while DJ gives him the :

http://mfhbff.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/sam-jackson-django-unchained-scowl-290x290.jpg

face.

He knocks down the jumper with MJ safely out of the picture and goes by the Bulls bench and said something to Doug Collins that the commentators said was "Who is this kid?"

Being the smartest guy on the court helps just as much as being the fastest.

11. Ball handling. Not crossovers and spin moves exactly though them too. I mean the ability to protect the ball from defenders and get where you need to be without giving up your dribble. Lot of guys with nasty handles cant dribble in traffic even if they will clown you at the top of the key. Some guys can protect the ball all day in order to run an offense but arent the most crossover prone(Looking at you Mark Jackson). So I dont mean any single area. But ill grant you it is nice to see:

http://i.imgflip.com/4m3gc.gif

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdpb5kn7u81rgx7ico1_400.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Kenny%20Anderson/fd5a73ff.gif

Now and then.

And I swear to god ill delete it if someone posts Jamal Crawford doing Kirk Hinrich dirty. Kirk has suffered enough.

Kblaze8855

12-17-2013, 01:37 PM

12. Post play. Guard or bigman.....a great post scorer can generate good shots at a rate you can build a team around.

Its been a key element on at least 50 title teams. The winds seems to be blowing the other way...but :

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Anfernee%20Hardaway/z%20Gifs%20of%20Penny%20Hardaway/penny00.gif

Will forever be in my heart.

13. Free throw shooting. Simple concept...I will not go into it. I will note that I said free throw shooting and not drawing fouls. Drawing fouls id say generally comes from the skills above leaving a man out of position....getting to the basket and being in traffic....not flopping, ripping through, or jumping into someone trying to make the refs give you something. I admit its effective these days.

But I never have and never will look for that quality in a player far as judging them. To me its almost like respecting the ability to carry the ball just because its effective and the refs allow it. Sure....it works. Doesnt mean im seeking out players good at it. Game being called properly I dont think the current method of drawing fouls would even exist so I cant exactly rep it. Its barely even basketball to me.

http://i.minus.com/iOaY1qQFAnL3J.gif

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/34/files/2013/11/harden-flop-warning.gif

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/lebron-flop-3.gif

Just because it works doesnt mean im considering it as a basketball skill.

14.Versatility. Needs little explaining so I will do little. Guys who can plug holes have obvious value game to game. But more than that they have an ability to adapt to different coaching and different teammates. Lebron could go be a power forward all year or a point guard and be one of the best at either. Him...Magic...Bird...Pippen. Do whatever you ask from almost whatever position of weakness you might have. Larry Bird late in his career played what I might call point....power....forward. 60 foot outlet passes, running the offense in the halfcourt, posting up, and guarding bigmen.

Doing one thing great is often more effective than doing it all well. But you need both for a team.

15.

The ability to make "Thats bullshit........." plays.

Hard to explain but you know them when you see them. Guys like Kobe, Bird, Paul, and Nash...

Those plays that nobody set out to create. The clock might be winding down. Perhaps the guy just feels like he can make something happen. But they all leave you thinking "We deserved the stop right there...". The plays you cant even be mad at anyone over. The guy is just too good...hes worked on every angle...taken every shot 2000 times in the gym....and you just cant do shit about it.

Often these plays are needed in clutch situation or just anything against the clock. Some call it luck. But special players make them at a rate too high to pretend its that simple. Those guys who make shots where you just have to tell the defender "Hey man....there was nothing more you could do...."

I'll Let Kobe and Larry explain for me:

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m92o4t1lF91r6ombko1_500.gif

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/172/1058l07.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/e0eb3adbf7644d359525fc578ab6c524/tumblr_mjezjpSwB71s2lf81o1_500.gif

http://i.minus.com/iboQos92MI7CA.gif

http://i.minus.com/ibjGR6tWx1hDDx.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/620749_o.gif

TheCorporation

12-17-2013, 01:40 PM

what does this have to do with melo?
:confusedshrug:

Not a whole lot...And I think that's the point :lol :lol

Kblaze8855

12-17-2013, 01:45 PM

Id say melo can claim 6 of these.

K Xerxes

12-17-2013, 01:49 PM

Taking into account all of these, I'd say Bird comes out on top. Which is why I've repeatedly said Bird is the greatest all-round offensive player of all time.

Kblaze8855

12-17-2013, 01:49 PM

Two lists...

Man to man defense.
Ball denial and positioning
Forcing the defense to account for you even if you aren't actually a great defender
Effort plays.
Off the ball drive prevention
Defensive deadership
Hole filling/being well rounded
Intimidation
Changing the oppositions approach to the game
Rebounding

Honorable mention....
By any means/physical/cheap play

Being successful with what the defense is willing to concede to you
Passing
Getting to the basket
Outside shooting
Off the ball movement
Offensive Leadership
Clutch play
Offensive rebounding
Playmaking
Craftiness/general offensive brilliance
Ball handling
Post play
Free throw shooting
Versatility
"Thats bullshit...." plays

Scottie Pippen id say has 14 of the 26 qualities between the two topics.

Bird also 14 of 26(mostly offense).

Jordan 15 I believe.

I doubt anyone tops that. Especially since mine is the only opinion im factoring in.

DMAVS41

12-17-2013, 01:51 PM

Id say melo can claim 6 of these.

How many does Dirk have?

LeGOAT

12-17-2013, 01:53 PM

I've come to the conclusion,based on this past,that LeBron is. GOAT

Kblaze8855

12-17-2013, 01:59 PM

How many does Dirk have?

I'll give him 8.

Arguably 9. Im not sure if id call the way he gets shots off over more athletic defenders crafty as much as....having the 15th "Thats bullshit...." quality.

He doesnt get open. He just makes it anyway. It looks kinda...crafty.

But im not sure anything about it is effective except that hes good enough for the ball to go in.

Nobody is really...fooled. Or outsmarted. Hes just really really really hard to stop from making shots that shouldnt go in.

BoutPractice

12-17-2013, 01:59 PM

Would you count the Dr. J... well, you know that shot, as a "that's bullshit" play? Or those ridiculous circus shots DWade and Manu often seem to make?

And I'd say Dirk has shown plenty of times he can be crafty with fakes, but that's just me.

Kblaze8855

12-17-2013, 02:02 PM

I've come to the conclusion,based on this past,that LeBron is. GOAT

Between the two lists id give him credit for 11 or 12 of 26.

Just so happens he has the ones most important for what he is asked to do.

Reggie Miller is in the HOF and he has like...3 of 26. Dont have to be that well rounded if you are good enough at what you do.

MP.Trey

12-17-2013, 02:04 PM

Haven't had the time to read it fully, but that Barkley-Rodman rebound battle gif is wonderful.

CeltsGarlic

12-17-2013, 02:06 PM

I dont know if you included my fav ability - knowing how to play ball. I can say I can only name several guys: Josh McRoberts (from what I saw in last 5-8 games of his this year), Spencer Hawes, Luis Scola (totally).. Maybe some more, but thats just off the top of my head.

What I meant, is basically natural ability to know when to pump fake, when to dribble the basket.
I was mostly imagining Scola.

Basically they make the right plays. Fast.

Edit. Kind of craftiness, but not really.

BoutPractice

12-17-2013, 02:08 PM

I don't think that list should be about rankings. If it were someone like Ginobili would be way up there among offensive players. I'd say he has everything except "leadership" (he's not poor in this category just not remarkable), offensive rebounding, and post play. But he's not the greatest or near the greatest at any one thing.

Kblaze8855

12-17-2013, 02:11 PM

Doc, Wade, and Manu do have some #15. Doc especially. A lot of his highlights just shouldnt be. The one in question....yea...that wasnt supposed to happen.

And Josh McRoberts is quietly...somehow without anyone seeming to notice....amazing.

Not as in....hes a great player. But he just shouldnt be doing some of the shit he does as a bigman. Ive watched him and thought he was a guard before I got a good look.

Kblaze8855

12-17-2013, 02:13 PM

Now that you mention it...you are right. You could give Manu like 14 things between both lists. No less than 10 on offense. Maybe 12.

DMAVS41

12-17-2013, 02:20 PM

Now that you mention it...you are right. You could give Manu like 14 things between both lists. No less than 10 on offense. Maybe 12.

Yea. I like this, because it shows that certain players that are far less well rounded...can be far better than well rounded players.

It's a good way to understand how a player can be great in a limited number of areas and be a great player in terms of impact.

And I'm not really talking about Dirk...as I think he has like 9 or 10 of the offensive stuff. And a few things on defense as well.

MP.Trey

12-17-2013, 02:22 PM

10. Craftiness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-42c470-MjM

^
Dennis Johnson and Larry Bird did that at least one other time I remember...and we didnt see as many games back then. They probably did it all the time. Cant always make the physical plays. Gotta out think the opponent too.

Which reminds me....Michael Jordan in his youth had a tactic for blocking slower guards. He would take a bad angle on a pass....or...just pretend to get beaten...only to swoop in and block the open shot from behind. It worked all the time. DJ was getting old. So MJ tried it. DJ blows by like he just saw a chance to score. MJ closes from behind in the blink of an eye. DJ pump fakes...MJ flys by while DJ gives him the :

http://mfhbff.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/sam-jackson-django-unchained-scowl-290x290.jpg

face.

He knocks down the jumper with MJ safely out of the picture and goes by the Bulls bench and said something to Doug Collins that the commentators said was "Who is this kid?"

Being the smartest guy on the court helps just as much as being the fastest.

This reminds me of Andre Miller and his fake timeouts. Set up like a timeout to lull the defense to sleep and then kick it into another gear and blow by your man to finish an easy layup. :pimp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xPESNueqpU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMDunIUhT1k

Kblaze8855

12-17-2013, 02:27 PM

Yea. I like this, because it shows that certain players that are far less well rounded...can be far better than well rounded players.

It's a good way to understand how a player can be great in a limited number of areas and be a great player in terms of impact.

And I'm not really talking about Dirk...as I think he has like 9 or 10 of the offensive stuff. And a few things on defense as well.

If you have enough of those key to your position you dont need those key to others. So its case by case. It also goes into the difference between being the best and the greatest as well. A distinction that will never be fully made.

And Sam Cassell did the fake timeout thing once or twice I believe.

Andre has to be crafty. He doesnt have much else.

BlackVVaves

12-17-2013, 02:28 PM

Amazing post KBlaze :applause:

Kblaze8855

12-17-2013, 02:34 PM

Trying t othink of a starter who has none of them.

Even Kwame has several on defense.

A prize to be determined later for anyone who can name an NBA starter without a single one of these qualities....ill even exclude FT shooting.

Does anyone have a 1?

SCdac

12-17-2013, 02:44 PM

Which is why he doesnt need to look down to know where the 3 point line is and how much room he has:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2808499/allen3.gif

Not to be nit picky, and it doesn't refute the notion of players knowing where they are on the court (which is true for sure, a good quality for all players)... but it I'm pretty sure Allen did glance down to his left immediately before the shot to see where he was in relation to the three point line (I'm basing this off youtube vid I just watched, not the gif, although it's noticeable in both).

AboutBuckets

12-17-2013, 05:33 PM

K Xerxes

12-17-2013, 05:38 PM

Just curious as to what aspect you'd give Perkins

I'd give him effort plays for sure.

GOBB

12-17-2013, 06:02 PM

Scrolling down Penny .gif caught my eye. :bowdown:

Then I scrolled up a bit and saw Kenny Anderson f*ck the game up. :bowdown: :bowdown:

I need to back out of thread and try again later. I'm flabbergasted right now.

Owl

12-17-2013, 06:32 PM

Can't think of a proper starter for this season but a recent past spot starter Stephen Graham (on that awful Nets team). Hypothetically the Graham's athleticism could get them to the basket but (a) they would as likely as not get called for charging or else miss at the rim and (b) by the end I think the athleticism went and they weren't even creating shots.

Both had horrible BB-IQs and, despite apparent athleticism, were lacking in lateral mobility. So I don't think there's much there for them on the defensive end either there either.

Off the top of my head they might get 1/2 for shot creation (though not for Stephen in the year he racked up those starts).

RoundMoundOfReb

12-17-2013, 08:35 PM

Just curious as to what aspect you'd give Perkins
Screen setting.

KevinNYC

12-18-2013, 01:53 AM

Kblaze8855

12-18-2013, 07:02 AM

Perkins gets positioning(screens) and ball denial(post defense). That's about it.

Im not sure John Lucas the third gets anything unless being a 77% ft shooter counts for a point guard.

He would get "Balls" if I counted it but that is only a virtue when you have the talent to make something happen on a regular basis.

Im not sure you cant make a case for Kevin Garnett to get 16....which would be the most of anyone ive thought of so far. 14 for sure. 16 arguable. MJ is at 15 for sure and like....19 arguable.

Kblaze8855

12-18-2013, 07:54 AM

Im giving Bill Russell 15.

Wilt 14 arguably 15.

Magic 13

Lebron 13

Kobe 13

Dennis Johnson a solid 13 maybe 14.

Trying ot think of anyone with a legit 16. Tim Duncan has it if I give him offensive leadership. And im not sure why I shouldn't. He is utterly selfless on offense and his presence and willingness to do what his teammates require has made a lot of players look better than they would otherwise. And they all seem to appreciate and acknowledge it.

Timmy might be the only legit 16 with none of them easily argued against.

AirFederer

12-18-2013, 08:07 AM

Great post(s).

If MJ doesn`t come out on top you`re missing something btw :pimp:
Maybe because your "scale" is more fitting for great big men? Don`t know.

Anyway, this thread deserves to live, instead of the multiple troll threads :facepalm

BoutPractice

12-18-2013, 09:01 AM

Kblaze8855

12-18-2013, 11:55 AM

Well based on what I know, what ive seen, reports from his peers, and so on...I could probably give Oscar 19.

But I don't know if I trust it without just watching a hell of a lot of him. Not as much of him in his prime is out there as some of the other old greats.

Far as the highest for a non star....

There are some well rounded stoppers with good shots who might get around 10. Battier for one you could give like 8 or 9.

Kblaze8855

12-21-2013, 09:26 AM

Among guards, I wonder how many Oscar, West (haven't paid enough attention to their defense), Frazier, Penny, and Chris Paul could be argued to have. Among bigs, Hakeem. Seems like he has pretty much everything save for elite playmaking and passing.
I also wonder what the absolute highest score for a "non-star" would be, and who it would be.

Bored so....

Chris Paul - 13

Charles Barkley - 12

Derrick Rose - 8(last time he was healthy at least)

John Stockton - 13

Gary Payton 12 or 13

Walt Frazier - 13?

Jason Kidd 13 or 14

Penny - 11
Doctor J maybe....6? But he got a lot of use out of them.

Hakeem.......17?

Shaq - 11

Kevin Durant 9 - 10

Jerry West by reputation and what ive seen id say 15

The 15+ list is short.

Jordan
Kg
Hakeem
Russell
Oscar
West
Duncan
KG

Pushxx

12-21-2013, 01:55 PM

Craftiness is so fun to watch in the NBA. Guys like Andre Miller, Pierce, or Nash that can make something out of nothing and leave you wondering how a defender can let them do that.

MJ's blocks from behind made me laugh. I would always think how quickly the blocked player went from happy to get by MJ to shut down lol.

pauk

12-21-2013, 02:23 PM

Kblaze8855

12-21-2013, 04:39 PM

Hm... I am struggling to understand how you would consider Lebron NOT having essentially all those qualities you mentioned except for something like freethrow shooting perhaps...

Lebron James
prime Grant Hill
Oscar Robertson

Those top my list.

After another look ill bump Lebron from 13 to 14.

Man to man defense.
Ball denial and positioning
Forcing the defense to account for you even if you aren't actually a great defender
Effort plays.
Hole filling/being well rounded
Intimidation
Being successful with what the defense is willing to concede to you
Passing
Getting to the basket
Offensive Leadership
Clutch play
Playmaking
Ball handling
Versatility

And I not 100% sure on all of those. Hes not the best at making the jumpers the defense concedes to him....but....he did win a game 7 for the NBA title by doing just that. So I cant really think of a bigger success using what the defense gives you.

Game to game im not sure he deserves it as a real noteworthy part of his game. But I wont pretend he didn't win a title off midrangej jumpers the D was happy to allow him. So it kinda seems like...the definition of success with what you are given. So I gave him that.

And hes not a special ball handler either. He is for his size....so I let him have it. I feel 14 is more than fair.

Kblaze8855

12-21-2013, 04:47 PM

I guess you can look at the numbers and justify giving him outside shooting but it doesn't stand out as a noteworthy part of his game to me.

I wont argue if someone wants to give him that though.

K Xerxes

12-21-2013, 04:53 PM

And I not 100% sure on all of those. Hes not the best at making the jumpers the defense concedes to him....but....he did win a game 7 for the NBA title by doing just that. So I cant really think of a bigger success using what the defense gives you.

It took him 7 games to start shooting and draining open jumpers in the finals. That's unforgivable, even if he did finally start making them in game 7. I wouldn't give him that, especially as the entire Spurs game plan relied on LeBron either refusing or bricking wide open practice type shots.

pauk

12-21-2013, 05:35 PM

After another look ill bump Lebron from 13 to 14.

Man to man defense.
Ball denial and positioning
Forcing the defense to account for you even if you aren't actually a great defender
Effort plays.
Hole filling/being well rounded
Intimidation
Being successful with what the defense is willing to concede to you
Passing
Getting to the basket
Offensive Leadership
Clutch play
Playmaking
Ball handling
Versatility

And I not 100% sure on all of those. Hes not the best at making the jumpers the defense concedes to him....but....he did win a game 7 for the NBA title by doing just that. So I cant really think of a bigger success using what the defense gives you.

Game to game im not sure he deserves it as a real noteworthy part of his game. But I wont pretend he didn't win a title off midrangej jumpers the D was happy to allow him. So it kinda seems like...the definition of success with what you are given. So I gave him that.

And hes not a special ball handler either. He is for his size....so I let him have it. I feel 14 is more than fair.

Yea i see what you mean, but i definitely think he has at least 15 of those qualities, really trying not to be prejudiced here but cant help it, i say what i have seen and i have seen maybe every single game of his.... lets just blame it on me being a "Lebrontard" and move on :)

Kblaze8855

12-22-2013, 02:05 PM

It took him 7 games to start shooting and draining open jumpers in the finals. That's unforgivable, even if he did finally start making them in game 7. I wouldn't give him that, especially as the entire Spurs game plan relied on LeBron either refusing or bricking wide open practice type shots.

Anything resulting in:

http://dayandadream.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/lebron-james-2013-nba-finals.jpg

is forgiven. It always has been and always will be. Without a single exception ever.

As I said im not claiming hes great at taking the shots hes given....but given my description....success while taking what the defense will give you...its hard to say he shouldnt have that one when it literally won them the title.

And Pauk...at least 15?

Just dont see it. Hes just really great at about 3-4. Which is enough.

raiderfan19

12-22-2013, 07:30 PM

I'm curious how many youd give Shawn Marion in his prime. I think you could justify any number from 9-12 but he was never a superstar. I'm curious if you can think of anyone with as many as him that wasn't a superstar. Rasheed Wallace might be close.

Kblaze8855

12-23-2013, 06:44 AM

You could give Marion up to 11 id say. 9-11.

Iggy perhaps 8? Manu is probably the highest among people not really considered top players.

raiderfan19

12-23-2013, 10:41 AM

That's fair, I'm curious if you included crafty with Marion. Id never have considered giving it to him until he got to Dallas and I watched him everyday(and I watched a bunch of Phoenix games while he was there) but he really does have some craftiness to his game with all the floaters and his very strange but effective post game.

Id agree about manu probably being the highest for a non superstar. Though there are probably some 3 and d guys who are pretty close. Would dream be the highest ever? Honestly for his position, there's really not anything you can completely say he couldn't do.

Kblaze8855

12-24-2013, 07:39 AM

I did not give him crafty but I understand considering it. And I saw you mentioned Rasheed who id give....

11 or 12.

At least his last 3-4 years in Portland and first couple on the Pistons.

And yes so far my #1 has to be Hakeem or Oscar. And I saw a lot more of Hakeem clearly. And I didn't even give him some I could. You could argue he had like 18.

raiderfan19

12-24-2013, 07:50 AM

I'd think tmac would have to rate highly too. He rarely did all of it at the same time but he could absolutely do many of these things at any given time if he needed to.

Also I'd think Andrei kirilenko would be surprisingly high. For a 0, late career Eric snow? Snow through up a 4-1-4 line while starting every game and playing 29 minutes a night in his 3rd to last season. He also shot .41/.68/.10. I know most would be content to give him leadership but honestly he just sat on the side and did nothing most of the time and by that point he wasn't a good defender either

Josh

12-24-2013, 08:02 AM

kblaze ... how many of those could a Paul Pierce in his prime claim?

Kblaze8855

12-24-2013, 08:32 AM

Tmac I think 14 is fair.

AK47 at least 10.

Pierce in his prime....10? Very good ones to have for a first option small forward though. Got to the basket well despite not being a great athlete, made his FTs, hit tough shots, was clutch, got a lot more steals than one might assume, there was nothing you could give him he wouldn't make work...he would drive on you if you played him close, make jumpers if you played off, and could post up the smaller man or shake the bigger guys off and hit the stepback when they were on their heels. Pretty crafty id say. He had most of what a scoring swingman would ever need.

And yea....Cavs Eric Snow gets a zero. Maybe passing....but not playmaking. He was a good entry passer....he wasn't noteworthy for it though(few are).

He did nothing worth talking about after his defense fell off with age.

Kblaze8855

12-24-2013, 08:37 AM

pauk

12-24-2013, 08:55 AM

Lowest rated HOF player you remember?

Reggie Miller...anyone have a case for more than 4? Off ball play, outside shooting, Ft shooting, and being clutch. Maybe "That's bullshit...." at times. He did hit some shots that the defense just cant be expected to stop.

Rodman wasn't great on offense but id have to give him 12 with most coming on defense.

I don't think many HOF players will challenge Reggie. Even Gervin who was known as just a scorer...you have to give him 7 or 8.

Nique...maybe you can give Nique a 5. But it was a key 5.

Reggie didnt have uber many qualities, but 1 quality of his is worth 2-3 normal qualities from other players considering how he mastered, exploited and impacted the game with that one dimension....

Reggie is:

*The greatest shooter of all time, from anywhere on the court.
*The greatest off ball player ever (screens, moving without the ball).
*The greatest clutch shooter ever.
*The greatest mind****er of all time, he could get under anybodies skin.... yes, it can and DID impact opponents performances shooting wise, so it is a quality...

..and out of those qualities you mentioned i would say Reggie has:

1. "Thats bullshit...."
2. Freethrow shooting
3. Craftiness
4. Clutch play
5. Leadership
6. Off the ball movement & positioning
7. Outside shooting
8. Ability to prosper (Why do you think Kobe said: "Reggie is the toughest player i ever had to guard"? No defense could ever guard Reggie, he would always create his shot without the ball and there is nothing you could do about it)

PS; Yes im Reggie biased :D

Kblaze8855

12-24-2013, 10:06 AM

1. "Thats bullshit...."

Arguable.

2. Freethrow shooting

Of course.

3. Craftiness

Ehhhhhhh...maybe. A little.

4. Clutch play

Of course.

5. Leadership

In Indiana, coach Larry Brown, the eternal pessimist, blames his team's lack of a leader for the Pacers' unexpected stay around mediocrity. "Reggie (Miller) is not a leader, not at all," Brown says.

I don't know if id go that far but I understand why he would think that. Reggie wasn't what id call a leader till he was old taking the young Pacers under his wing in like 02-04.

6. Off the ball movement & positioning

No doubt.

7. Outside shooting

Indeed.

8. Ability to prosper (Why do you think Kobe said: "Reggie is the toughest player i ever had to guard"? No defense could ever guard Reggie, he would always create his shot without the ball and there is nothing you could do about it)

No he wouldn't. Go watch a 90s Pacers game and see how many shots he actually got running off those screens. He might literally come off 40 a game and get 7 looks. He was taking 13-14 shots a game in his prime. Many on the break. Some in faceup situations. He wore defenders out. He didn't actually score much doing it. No way he scored as much off the ball as even Allen Iverson who nobody even calls a great off the ball scorer. I bet he put up like 9ppg getting looks off screens. Reggies best scoring years were when he was a faceup player before all the Knicks drama made him a star.

And Reggie wouldn't really qualify for this one anyway. He wasn't really given anything but the drive and at times the post up. They tried to take away his looks off the ball. He punished people in the post way more than it seems people remember but he was never special using the tight defense on his catches to just explode to the basket. He could do it...but wasn't special at it. Id say a guy like Ray Allen had a better shot fake and drive or blow by on the hard closeout game and im not sure id give him the "Take what they give you" quality either.

Reggie did his thing...he just didn't do very many of them.

Reggie43

12-24-2013, 02:48 PM

I really love Kblazes views about Reggie, very very informative yet deceptive at the same time. He knows as much as anyone about Millers game but focuses more on his shortcomings rather than the positive aspects of his game.

If you relied mainly on his description of Reggie youd find it very hard to believe that such a player was able to lead his team to playoff series wins against Hall of famer's like Allen Iverson, Patrick Ewing, Shaquille Oneal etc..

Kblaze8855

12-24-2013, 04:15 PM

raiderfan19

12-24-2013, 05:36 PM

Reggie43

12-25-2013, 09:50 PM

I feel like its a little dishonest to say Reggie led his team past blank... Reggie was never the clear cut best player on the pacers for more than maybe a year or two. He was the star, he wasn't the best player.

On the craftiness rating, seriously? The only craftiness he really had was the leg kick unless you are counting off the ball stuff and that's already it's on category. Reggie really is one of the more overrated players in history. I mean can you honestly name one thing he did better than ray Allen? And at that point it's really difficult to argue he did anything as well as ray Allen other than shoot fts.

Reggie not the best player on the Pacers in his prime? This just shows that you probably saw Reggie at the tailend of his career and not when he was battling the likes of Ewing, Shaquille and Jordan and making a name for himself.

Craftiness is a trait that defines him and some of you are contesting that? How do you explain the amount of freethrows ho got despite not being much of a slasher? He often got opponents to foul him with his bag of tricks which was definitely not all about the leg kick.

I have argued the Ray vs. Reggie thing too much and wont start now. Too many people really have a hard time understanding Millers impact which makes him overrated to some.

Kblaze8855

12-25-2013, 10:08 PM

Reggie not the best player on the Pacers in his prime? This just shows that you probably saw Reggie at the tailend of his career and not when he was battling the likes of Ewing, Shaquille and Jordan and making a name for himself.

Multiple hall of fame NBA coaches were saying Reggie wasnt the best player on the Pacers.....

I heard it said by a Bulls announcer early 90s that Detlef was the Pacers best player. It wasnt unheard of for people to say Smits was in the mid 90s. And Mckey is who both Larry Brown and Phil Jackson said were better than Reggie around 95.

I really dont believe basketball people were that impressed by Reggie during his playing days. A lot more in retrospect just....playing nice.

I dont think coaches, gms, and bigtime fans thought he was that great. I know I didnt.....

Reggie isnt someone it makes sense to play the "You dont remember...." card with.

He was less highly regarded in his prime than by people looking back. Plenty of players were getting chosen by coaches over him for all star games or picked for all nba teams who fans today would never rank over him.

Hes if anything the opposite of a "You must not have watched....".

Nobody put Reggie over Penny or Mitch Richmond in their primes. I ask now plenty of people will. It isnt because 22 year olds on the internet know more about 1994 than those of us who watched it........

K Xerxes

12-25-2013, 10:14 PM

Olajuwon gets the most from me. Is there any of the defensive ones you'd say he doesn't fulfil? I'd give him all of them and like 8 or 9 of the offensive.

Reggie43

12-25-2013, 10:17 PM

Not if you had ever watched the NBA and seen Dale Ellis knock out Hakeem, Baron Davis knock out Dirk, and Chauncey Billups lead a team past Lebrons. Bingo Smith and Campy Russell knocked out a team with 3 starting hall of famers in Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, and Dave Bing and I think they had another all star next to Dave in Phil chenier.

Nobody acts like that says a thing of the level of player who won and lost.

Reggie leading a team past Ewing or Shaq means as much to me as Gus Williams leading the Sonics past Kareem. Which he did twice for the record..swept him once and put up 31 a game beating them in five the other....

Not that anyone gives a damn.

Davis and Ellis did it once, The Pistons team with Chauncey never had a clearcut best player so you definitely cant give Billups the credit. Wasnt very familiar with smith and russell and again they beat a team with Hall of Famers only one time in their careers. Miller did it multiple times while being the face of th Pacers franchise.

Never knew much about Gus Williams but upon some research he was a pretty good player who had long playoff runs similar to Reggie. Great comparison. too bad injuries cut his playing days short

branslowski

12-25-2013, 10:21 PM

Reggie Miller being overrated again I see. Never seen a 18ppg 3ast 3reb player be mentioned with the greats like I have with Miller.

Kblaze8855

12-25-2013, 10:30 PM

Davis and Ellis did it once

Which has what to do with it? You imply that beating great legends says something of your game. You really think they were capable of it only when it happened or....things just didnt fall right in other times?

The Pistons team with Chauncey never had a clearcut best player so you definitely cant give Billups the credit.

People didnt give Reggie the credit! You are I believe old enough to remember those days.

They were called "Larry Brown and the Pacers". That was when coaches were respected. Larry got more love for some of those wins than Reggie did.

Wasnt very familiar with smith and russell and again they beat a team with Hall of Famers only one time in their careers. Miller did it multiple times while being the face of th Pacers franchise.

Face means nothing to basketball on the floor.

Never knew much about Gus Williams but upon some research he was a pretty good player who had long playoff runs similar to Reggie. Great comparison. too bad injuries cut his playing days short

He had long playoff runs....they were not terribly similar to Reggie. Gus Williams was considered a top player. All nba first team. Led/co led a team to a ring. But that aside....

Its clear what the point was. Using wins over HOF players to act like a lesser player is this or that just doesnt hold up once you look into it and see that it happens all the time.

Happening more than once to one guy doesnt prove a thing except that a solid team stuck together for a while and won a few series. You play like 19 years you are gonna win some series over much better players.

Doesnt mean you cant pretty much be....Joe Johnson. Who...by the way also knocked out hall of famers.

Doesnt mean id trade Deng for him.

Reggie43

12-25-2013, 10:32 PM

Multiple hall of fame NBA coaches were saying Reggie wasnt the best player on the Pacers.....

I heard it said by a Bulls announcer early 90s that Detlef was the Pacers best player. It wasnt unheard of for people to say Smits was in the mid 90s. And Mckey is who both Larry Brown and Phil Jackson said were better than Reggie around 95.

I really dont believe basketball people were that impressed by Reggie during his playing days. A lot more in retrospect just....playing nice.

I dont think coaches, gms, and bigtime fans thought he was that great. I know I didnt.....

Reggie isnt someone it makes sense to play the "You dont remember...." card with.

He was less highly regarded in his prime than by people looking back. Plenty of players were getting chosen by coaches over him for all star games or picked for all nba teams who fans today would never rank over him.

Hes if anything the opposite of a "You must not have watched....".

Nobody put Reggie over Penny or Mitch Richmond in their primes. I ask now plenty of people will. It isnt because 22 year olds on the internet know more about 1994 than those of us who watched it........

The funny thing is that you could say that about a ton of other Hall of Famers at one point of their careers. Kobe being better than Shaq and Pippen being the real mvp of the bulls are some of the most outrageous ones Ive heard and read. Coaches, media etc. say a lot of things to support their agenda. One of the funny things Ive heard was Isiah thomas calling Reggie "the Pacers best defender" as a 35-36 year old :oldlol:

Reggie being placed over Richmond and Penny is probably due to Millers sustained success albeit not winning it all. It has nothing to do on how talented each of them were

Kblaze8855

12-25-2013, 10:37 PM

Except those are unusual things to be said.

People not being blown away by Reggie Miller was....standard. The Pacers were not a team led by one guy clearly above the others.

Rik Smits was their go to guy like...half the 90s. People just dont seem to know it looking at PPG because they ignore he was playing 20 something minutes.

It was a lot of tough, smart, and well fitting players playing hard and being well coached.

It wasnt Reggie and the backup...and people didnt act like it was.

Kblaze8855

12-25-2013, 10:47 PM

Real talk...the idea that Reggie Miller wasnt the best player on the Pacers was not something made up by haters in 2013....article from 1993 confirming something I knew I remembered.....

As the Pacers slowly fell to the hardwood in the third quarter yesterday and were stomped into it in the fourth, it was obvious that, while not without competitive skills, they could not match the home team's will. Even during the first half, when the Pacers had the wings of eagles, there were all kinds of clues, as when Starks out-toughed Detlef Schrempf for a loose ball on the sideline near midcourt, leaped and, from out of bounds, fired a strike to Charles Oakley for a breakaway layup.

Schrempf is supposed to be the Pacers' best player, but he scored just 10 points in Game 1 on Friday night and 2 points in the second half after a decent start yesterday. Anthony Mason is walking around these days in a T-shirt that says, "Mase in Yo Face." Schrempf contended just the opposite, that Mason was backing off and daring him to shoot the jump shot.

"I can't hit my outside shot, so I'm in trouble," he said.

While Schrempf was at it, he was painfully honest regarding the question of what creates the gulf between the Knicks and the Pacers.

"Every team in the league has talent," he said. "Basically, it comes down to mental approach and team play. They're tough mentally, and they play well as a team."

Implicit was that the Pacers are not and do not and so they were fated to lose no matter how bumbling the Knicks were in the first 24 minutes.

The beauty of this game, illustrated locally all those years ago by Red Holzman's Knicks, is when a group of players evolves into a purposeful unit, each one lending his special skill and making his own intangible contribution. On Pat Riley's team, a 42 percent shooter is given the freedom to fire away from the perimeter, almost at will. That's because Starks has earned the right. The bigger the moment, the better he shoots.

Reggie Miller, by reputation one of the premier marksmen in the game, was rated at least even in his pre-series matchup with Starks. He shoots almost 48 percent, but the numbers don't say that Miller works off continuous screens, that in the face of severe defensive heat he can't advance the ball.

Detlef I remember being called the best Pacer by a number of people back then. And Mckey. And Smits. Person before that. Reggie? Usually. The famous guy is gonna get the love but what was said here:

I feel like its a little dishonest to say Reggie led his team past blank... Reggie was never the clear cut best player on the pacers for more than maybe a year or two. He was the star, he wasn't the best player.

....is right in line with many general opinions from the time. But as the years go by the more players considered just as good or better fade in the face of Reggies famous name.

Reggie43

12-25-2013, 10:52 PM

Kblaze8855

12-25-2013, 10:56 PM

Indeed it is. Doesnt mean he was generally the guy they were giving the ball looking to get the offense going. Smits was that teams go to scorer a hell of a lot of the time. Him not being as good a catch and shoot scorer as one of the best to ever do it doesnt change that.

There have been too many go to guys who were bigmen and therefore not the guy to give the ball for a quick shot to name. And I wont assume you dont know them. I'll just assume you chose to ignore them.

There were years Rik took more shots than Reggie in less minutes. But they had 3-4 good bigmen and he was 7'4'' quick to tire and fouled a lot.

But with both in the game....Rik was the one the offense was looking to get the ball to for a lot of the 90s.

Reggie43

12-25-2013, 11:03 PM

Real talk...the idea that Reggie Miller wasnt the best player on the Pacers was not something made up by haters in 2013....article from 1993 confirming something I knew I remembered.....

Detlef I remember being called the best Pacer by a number of people back then. And Mckey. And Smits. Person before that. Reggie? Usually. The famous guy is gonna get the love but what was said here:

....is right in line with many general opinions from the time. But as the years go by the more players considered just as good or better fade in the face of Reggies famous name.

That was somewhat early in his career when hasnt fully developed the confidence in his game to be successful.

When they were successful in his prime nobody is definitely calling the team Rik Smits Pacers or Mckey's team dont you think?

All in all I respect your views and I understand where your opinion about Reggie is coming from so I wont hijack this thread any further

Kblaze8855

12-25-2013, 11:51 PM

No they wouldnt call them Mckeys team. Or Smits. But again thats largely an issue of fame, marketing, and so on. Plus they were not guys to jump out and be vocal and make a scene. Just basketball players. And basketball people had just as much respect for guys like them as Reggie. They were a real team. Not a star plus role players. Far more 04-08 Pistons than I feel they are remembered as. Reggie is the only one history cares about. But he was one of many good players. Not one star with many helpers.

Far as reggies early career...I never got why people act like his prime started at 30. Reggie was Reggie in the late 80s. But ill agree to disagree.

Kblaze8855

12-25-2013, 11:53 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YpBP2mJe2s

1989.

Pretty much the same guy as:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6IfMVByd3w

11 years later. Same basic player for a long time.