Bigger Gap: Magic vs CP3 or Bird vs Dirk

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Saw this topic on another forum and thought it was interesting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUr8uA1kxMo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHkpGw28mCw

I would say at the peak of their powers, the gap between Dirk and Bird is larger because of Larry's playmaking and defense. :confusedshrug:

[VIntageNOvel]

the gap between boris diaw and lebron in final

[K Xerxes]

Not really sure we ever saw CP3 at his absolute peak. In 08 and some of 09, he manage to combine his supreme athleticism with a controlled ability to run an offense of scrubs. Easy 20-10 every night. Could have been better had he not suffered injuries.

Anyway, I would say peak wise from what we've seen, you'd have to say:

Bird
Magic
Dirk
CP3

Bigger gap between Bird and Dirk. Peak Bird was out of this world, most complete offensive player I've ever managed to see, and still a very competent defender (using smarts, not athleticism).

[Solefade]

CP3 and Magic? :lol it's like comparing Tony Romo to John Elway


Dirk and Bird is a way closer comparison

[LeGOAT]

Not sure if serious....

[gts]

The gaps are about the same

Huge...

[R.I.P.]

CP3 and Magic? :lol it's like comparing Tony Romo to John Elway


Dirk and Bird is a way closer comparison

This.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Not really sure we ever saw CP3 at his absolute peak. In 08 and some of 09, he manage to combine his supreme athleticism with a controlled ability to run an offense of scrubs. Easy 20-10 every night. Could have been better had he not suffered injuries.

Anyway, I would say peak wise from what we've seen, you'd have to say:

Bird
Magic
Dirk
CP3

Bigger gap between Bird and Dirk. Peak Bird was out of this world, most complete offensive player I've ever managed to see, and still a very competent defender (using smarts, not athleticism).

Agree with everything

[DMAVS41]

Nah...bigger gap between Magic and CP3.

Dirk at his peak is top 15 all time stuff. CP3 doesn't crack top 30 probably.

Even if you have peak Bird as the best player ever...the gap isn't bigger.

[Young X]

CP3 doesn't crack top 30 probably.Please explain.

[DMAVS41]

Why not?

Why would he?

Never won a MVP. Never made the conference finals. Never won more than 56 games.

I see great numbers, but a lesser overall impact than the numbers would indicate.

Put it this way...you really think Chris Paul deserves to be on the Dirk tier all time?

If not, then how is the gap bigger between Bird and Dirk? The gap between peak Bird and peak Magic is small at best to begin with.

[Young X]

Never won a MVP. Never made the conference finals. Never won more than 56 games.Teams win games/make conferences finals, not individual players. Look at the horrible support Paul has had in the playoffs, than look at how brutal his teams competition is.


I see great numbers, but a lesser overall impact than the numbers would indicate.You mean by turning around two of the worst franchises in league history?

A 23/11/5.5/2.8 - 60 TS% player at his peak who has been able to make two dreadful franchises relevant. That's not enough impact?

A player who at his peak almost fairly won MVP over prime Kobe doesn't have a top 30 peak? What?

[Mr. Jabbar]

magic cp3, no doubt

[DMAVS41]

Teams win games/make conferences finals, not individual players. Look at the horrible support Paul has had in the playoffs, than look at how brutal his teams competition is.

You mean by turning around two of the worst franchises in league history?

A 23/11/5.5/2.8 - 60 TS% player at his peak who has been able to make two dreadful franchises relevant. That's not enough impact?

A player who at his peak almost fairly won MVP over prime Kobe doesn't have a top 30 peak? What?

What? You act like I'm saying he's not great. Again...what?

Where do you rank Paul's peak? You need to work through your NBA history if you think Paul is just a no brainer for top 30 all time...LOL

Seriously...just in the league currently who had better peaks than Paul;

Dirk
Lebron
Durant
Kobe
Duncan
KG
Wade

I'm sure I'm forgetting someone...but that is 7 right there currently in the league. Like...if Paul George finishes the year at 24/6/4 59% TS...I'd probably put him even with peak Paul. A lock down best defender at his position in the league with that kind of overall production is definitely in the debate with being as impactful as Paul ever has been.

[pauk]

Magic vs CP3... Magic was just better at everything... which at 6'9" allowed him to essentially dominate any position, especially 6'0" PGs...

Peak Dirk and Bird are a bit closer, even closer if you forget that Bird had vastly superiour passing/vision.

[Legends66NBA7]

Seriously...just in the league currently who had better peaks than Paul;

Dirk
Lebron
Durant
Kobe
Duncan
KG
Wade

I'm sure I'm forgetting someone...but that is 7 right there currently in the league.

Dwight Howard ?

[DMAVS41]

Dwight Howard ?

Yep. Knew I forgot someone.

Also think 02 and 03 Kidd has no reason to be behind Paul.

Also forgot Paul Pierce as a candidate as well. Probably would take Paul, but certainly close.

[Young X]

So Paul Pierce and Jason Kidd have better peaks than a guy who is/was putting up Magic Johnson type production at his peak while almost fairly winning MVP over Kobe in one of his best seasons?

[moe94]

The level of hatred Paul gets on this site is ridiculous.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0a3fg-fUWdw/T3On8vGgmVI/AAAAAAAAA4A/PJg-1gRMH5Y/s1600/bunk-the-wire.gif

[DMAVS41]

So Paul Pierce and Jason Kidd have better peaks than a guy who is/was putting up Magic Johnson type production at his peak while almost fairly winning MVP over Kobe in one of his best seasons?

Did I say better? No, but I don't think you are on firm ground if you think Paul in any form was clearly better than peak Kidd in 02 an 03...when he was leading his teams to the finals...while putting up 20/8/9 in the playoffs and being a defender on a completely different level than Paul.

Did you even know that? That over a two year playoff span...in 40 games...Kidd averaged 20/8/9 and played some of the best defense ever played at his position.

I see no reason to think Paul deserves to be on a different level than that. In fact, I'm taking Kidd...LOL

You do realize Kidd finished 2nd in MVP voting in 02...right? Lost to Duncan in one of his best seasons. Just so you know...02 Duncan >>>>>>> 08 Kobe. And Kidd was actually closer to beating Duncan than Paul was to beating Kobe.

Damn...think that is ether actually.

[DMAVS41]

The level of hatred Paul gets on this site is ridiculous.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0a3fg-fUWdw/T3On8vGgmVI/AAAAAAAAA4A/PJg-1gRMH5Y/s1600/bunk-the-wire.gif

:facepalm :wtf:

[notatop29pg]

Paul doesnt dunk enough to be respected by the kids on here.

[moe94]

:facepalm :wtf:

It's not even this thread, but any thread that looks at him as an all time great is just people flinging nonsense and vitriol his direction. It's hardly subtle. :confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Magic vs CP3... Magic was just better at everything... which at 6'9" allowed him to essentially dominate any position, especially 6'0" PGs...

Disagree. CP3 at the very least is a better defender and PURE jumpshooter.

Statistically, he also has MULTIPLE seasons w/ a better player efficiency rating.

Because of tangibles, I believe Magic was better. By a fair amount. I don't think the GAP is as big as people are making it out to be, though.

[DMAVS41]

It's not even this thread, but any thread that looks at him as an all time great is just people flinging nonsense and vitriol his direction. It's hardly subtle. :confusedshrug:

I think Paul is on the short list of best pg ever after Magic. But to act like he's definitley better than peak Jason Kidd is probably why people hate on him a bit.

I love Paul, but some reality needs to enter at some point if people are claiming shit like that.

[fpliii]

Bird and CP3 being disrespected, as usual here. SMH.

[Young X]

The level of hatred Paul gets on this site is ridiculous.It's because there's no other Paul fans/supporters on here besides myself. So when I say Paul has a top 30 peak, despite him clearly having top 30 type production/ability I look crazy to everybody because I'm the only one arguing it. He just had a 38/12 on 11-14 game the other day and nobody cared, for example.

People don't realize how good he is historically because of his lack of team success and the teams he's played for. When you break down his game he's an all-time great, but just because he hasn't won he puts up "empty stats". SMH.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's because there's no other Paul fans/supporters on here besides myself. So when I say Paul has a top 30 peak, despite him clearly having top 30 type production/ability I look crazy to everybody because I'm the only one arguing it. He just had a 38/12 on 11-14 game the other day and nobody cared, for example.

People don't realize how good he is historically because of his lack of team success and the teams he's played for. When you break down his game he's an all-time great, but just because he hasn't won he puts up "empty stats". SMH.

I'm a big CP3 fan, but look at most NBA top 50 lists. 1 - 25ish, you could argue all those guys were as good/better during their peak. Just saying...

[DMAVS41]

It's because there's no other Paul fans/supporters on here besides myself. So when I say Paul has a top 30 peak, despite him clearly having top 30 type production/ability I look crazy to everybody because I'm the only one arguing it. He just had a 38/12 on 11-14 game the other day and nobody cared, for example.

People don't realize how good he is historically because of his lack of team success and the teams he's played for. When you break down his game he's an all-time great, but just because he hasn't won he puts up "empty stats". SMH.

No. You look crazy when you act like peak Kidd was not as good as peak Paul.

That is when you look crazy. And notice how you didn't respond to my post destroying your arguments.

Like Paul finishing 2nd to Kobe in 08. Kidd finished 2nd to Duncan in 02...and was actually closer...and again 02 Duncan was better than 08 Kobe.

I just don't think you understand the history of the game. It's not unreasonable to claim Paul had a top 30 peak, I'd have to sit down and do the list, but my guess is that he'd finish outside.

You, however, acted like it was crazy to claim Paul wasn't top 30. Which again speaks to not understanding the history of the game.

[Young X]

I'm a big CP3 fan, but look at most NBA top 50 lists. 1 - 25ish, you could argue all those guys were as good/better during their peak. Just saying...Besides the consensus top 10, I'd day:

Bron
Barkley
Mikan
West
Robertson
KG
Erving
Malone
Malone
Wade
Dirk
Robinson
Baylor
Pettit
Hayes

are better than CP at his peak. That's 25. Then you could argue Durant, McHale, Bellamy, Johnston.

When you look at how great Paul is/was at his peak, I'd say its top 30 worthy.

[DMAVS41]

Besides the consensus top 10, I'd day:

Bron
Barkley
Mikan
West
Robertson
KG
Erving
Malone
Malone
Wade
Dirk
Robinson
Baylor
Pettit
Hayes

are better than CP at his peak. That's 25. Then you could argue Durant, McHale, Bellamy, Johnston.

When you look at how great Paul is/was at his peak, I'd say its top 30 worthy.

Durant for sure. Walton for sure. Hondo for sure. Again...Kidd? Pippen? Ewing? Thomas? Barry? Iverson? Cousy? Nique? Gervin?

I'd have to spend more time on it, but there are many more...those are just off the top of my head.

Seriously...peak Webber is on same level probably. Had a 27/8/4 season...averaged 24/11/5 in the 02 playoffs...

Like...do you realize that Ewing had a 29/11/3 season in 1990 in both the playoffs and regular season? And he's not on CP3's level?

Oh yea...T-Mac as well...LOL

Drexler

We are honestly pushing top 40...

So to clean the above up. In addition to the guys you mentioned...these guys are at or above CP3's level;

Durant
Walton
Hondo
Kidd
Pippen
Ewing
Thomas
Barry
Iverson
Cousy
Nique
Gervin
Webber
T-Mac
Drexler
McHale

And more...like was Willis Reed's peak below Paul's?

[Micku]

Like Paul finishing 2nd to Kobe in 08. Kidd finished 2nd to Duncan in 02...and was actually closer...and again 02 Duncan was better than 08 Kobe.


Depends on the context really. Thb, it's still a damn shame that CP3 and Kobe voting wasn't closer than what it was (still close). It should've been situation like the 04-05 type.

But MVP voting itself doesn't value who is the better player. Despite the claiming of Duncan 02 is better than 08 Kobe, Shaq 02 was better all of them, but had injuries to prevent his voting. Kobe 02, Kevin Garnett, and T-Mac was better than Kidd 02. Chris Webber was arguably better that year as well, but also had a better team and was out a bunch of games.

I don't think the MVP voting itself represent of who people think is the better player. People who get higher on MVP voting sometimes don't even make it the 1st all NBA team.

[DMAVS41]

Depends on the context really. Thb, it's still a damn shame that CP3 and Kobe voting wasn't closer than what it was (still close). It should've been situation like the 04-05 type.

But MVP voting itself doesn't value who is the better player. Despite the claiming of Duncan 02 is better than 08 Kobe, Shaq 02 was better all of them, but had injuries to prevent his voting. Kobe 02, Kevin Garnett, and T-Mac was better than Kidd 02. Chris Webber was arguably better that year as well, but also had a better team and was out a bunch of games.

I don't think the MVP voting itself represent of who people think is the better player. People who get higher on MVP voting sometimes don't even make it the 1st all NBA team.

Oh..neither do I. But that was his argument...not mine. I'm just showing him that Kidd actually did what Paul did and more in terms of the MVP finish argument.

I don't care all that much at all about it.

[Young X]

Durant
Walton
Hondo
Kidd
Pippen
Ewing
Thomas
Barry
Iverson
Cousy
Nique
Gervin
Webber
T-Mac
Drexler
McHaleI forgot about Walton, Hondo, and Barry. I'd add them and Durant. That's 29 players. I really don't see how anyone else is clearly better.

I know I keep saying it but Paul is/was putting up Magic Johnson type numbers with the same efficiency while being an annual top 5 player/MVP candidate, making All NBA defensive teams, leading the league in steals and assists. 30 PER regular season, 30 PER playoff run. I really think you're underrating how good he is but whatever.

[DMAVS41]

I forgot about Walton, Hondo, and Barry. I'd add them and Durant. That's 29 players. I really don't see how anyone else is clearly better.

I know I keep saying it but Paul is/was putting up Magic Johnson type numbers with the same efficiency while being an annual top 5 player/MVP candidate, making All NBA defensive teams, leading the league in steals and assists. 30 PER regular season, 30 PER playoff run. I really think you're underrating how good he is but whatever.

I didn't say clearly better...although again. Paul just has not done enough to claim he's better than Jason Kidd. That is my point.

You really think Paul is clearly better than Thomas and Pippen and Ewing?

No, I'm not underrating Paul. He's great. I think he has a chance to go down as the 2nd best pg ever behind Magic. But to act like his peak is clearly better than a 29/11/3 Ewing? Come on now...

His peak right now ranks somewhere around the 40 to 50...

[moe94]

His peak right now ranks somewhere around the 40 to 50...

:roll:

[secund2nun]

Magic CP3 is a bigger gap

[DMAVS41]

:roll:

Where do you rank it?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Chris Paul is better than Dirk, closer to Magic IMO. So the gap between Bird and Dirk is larger.

[magnax1]

Chris Paul is better than Dirk, closer to Magic IMO. So the gap between Bird and Dirk is larger.
This. Peak vs peak at least. Overall probably CP3 Magic though even though I'd say Bird is quite a bit better as a player than Magic.

[Young X]

I didn't say clearly better...although again. Paul just has not done enough to claim he's better than Jason Kidd. That is my point.How about being a far more efficient player? More skilled? Better statistically?

You really think Paul is clearly better than Thomas and Pippen and Ewing?

No, I'm not underrating Paul. He's great. I think he has a chance to go down as the 2nd best pg ever behind Magic. But to act like his peak is clearly better than a 29/11/3 Ewing? Come on now...I never said he was clearly better than Ewing, but besides Ewing alot of the players you mentioned such as Cousy I don't agree with arguably being better than Paul.

One more thing - compare Paul's 08 regular season/postseason to Magic's 90 regular season/postseason. Do you still feel Paul Pierce is on the same level as CP3?

[DMAVS41]

How about being a far more efficient player? More skilled? Better statistically?
I never said he was clearly better than Ewing, but besides Ewing alot of the players you mentioned such as Cousy I don't agree with being better than Paul.

One more thing - compare Paul's 08 regular season/postseason to Magic's 90 regular season/postseason. Do you still feel Paul Pierce is on the same level as him?

And Paul can't touch Kidd on defense or rebounding...

Do I feel peak Pierce is on the same level? Yes...I do. LOL

[DMAVS41]

This. Peak vs peak at least. Overall probably CP3 Magic though even though I'd say Bird is quite a bit better as a player than Magic.

Peak Dirk is not failing to get out of the 2nd round ever...it's not happening.

Certainly not with a team like the 08 Hornets. With West, Peja, and Chandler...LOL

[SamuraiSWISH]

Peak Dirk is not failing to get out of the 2nd round ever...it's not happening.
Yet at his peak failed to get out of the 1st round? Right.

:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Yet at his peak failed to get out of the 1st round? Right.

:oldlol:

That wasn't his peak. LOL...you don't get to call 07 Dirk's peak. Might as well call 13 Paul's peak where he failed to get out of the first round.

You serious with this crap? 07 was probably the worst Dirk ever played in the playoffs...now Dirk's worst playoffs is his peak? ROFL...the lengths people go to on here is hilarious.

We are comparing these players at their best...that is what a peak is you ****ing moron.

[SCdac]

The gaps are about the same

Huge...

Agreed.

[Young X]

Peak Dirk is not failing to get out of the 2nd round ever...it's not happening.

Certainly not with a team like the 08 Hornets. With West, Peja, and Chandler...LOLThe Hornets lost to the defending champion Spurs who had the exact same record as them. Paul averaged 24/11. Didn't the 07 Mavs lose to a team that won 23 less games than them while Dirk averaged 19 pts on 38% shooting in his MVP season? Which is worse? :oldlol:

Then the next season who did the Mavs lose in the 1st round again to? The CP3 led Hornets. Paul averaged 25/12/6. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

The Hornets lost to the defending champion Spurs who had the exact same record as them. Paul averaged 24/11. Didn't the 07 Mavs lose to a team that won 23 less games than them while Dirk averaged 19 pts on 38% shooting in his MVP season? Which is worse? :oldlol:

Then the next season who did the Mavs lose in the 1st round again to? The CP3 led Hornets. Paul averaged 25/12/6. :oldlol:

Uhh...so?

Why are we comparing Dirk's worst playoff to Paul's best? You do understand what peak is...right?

And you do realize you already conceded Dirk had a better peak...LOL

ISH...were a debate on peak play somehow incorporates the worst year a player ever had in the playoffs. Seriously...do you guys enjoy just being retarded?

Do you really not know how this works? You don't compare Paul's best year to Dirk's worst. But why are we debating this anyway? You already listed Dirk over Paul...rofl.

I was responding to the moron that disagreed with you...

[Young X]

Uhh...so?

Why are we comparing Dirk's worst playoff to Paul's best? You do understand what peak is...right?

And you do realize you already conceded Dirk had a better peak...LOL

ISH...were a debate on peak play somehow incorporates the worst year a player ever had in the playoffs. Seriously...do you guys enjoy just being retarded?You said peak Dirk would never fail to get out of the 2nd round, but he got EMBARRASSED in the 1st round in his MVP/best statistical season. Dirk's 07 season could be argued as his peak and he faired worse than Paul. What am I missing?

[DMAVS41]

You said peak Dirk would never fail to get out of the 2nd round, but he got EMBARRASSED in the 1st round in his MVP/best statistical season. Dirk's 07 season could be argued as his peak and he faired worse than Paul. What am I missing?

07 could never be argued as his peak. It was his worst playoffs of all. What are you missing?

The fact that you are using Dirk's worst playoff series as his peak as a player. It's utter nonsense.

I'm going to use Paul's 12 playoff series against the Spurs as his peak. I'm free to do so...what am I missing?

13/9/4 43% TS...rofl

Much worse than Dirk's 07 performance....:roll:

And when I said he's not failing to get out of the 2nd round ever...that was putting the emphasis on the fact that Paul has NEVER gotten out of the 2nd round in his career. Ever.

[Young X]

07 could never be argued as his peak. It was his worst playoffs of all. What are you missing?

The fact that you are using Dirk's worst playoff series as his peak as a player. It's utter nonsense.

I'm going to use Paul's 12 playoff series against the Spurs as his peak. I'm free to do so...what am I missing?

13/9/4 43% TS...rofl

Much worse than Dirk's 07 performance....:roll:Paul was injured that series, lost to a far superior team and his 12 season in general has no argument for being his best. Dirk embarrassed himself, and lost to a far inferior team in his MVP season. Not comparable.

What year do you consider as his best? From 06-10 he fared the same way Paul did - played great but lost in the 1st 2 rounds due to not having enough help. Paul actually played better than Dirk did.

[DMAVS41]

Paul was injured that series, lost to a far superior team and his 12 season in general has no argument for being his best. Dirk embarrassed himself, and lost to a far inferior team in his MVP season. Not comparable.

What year do you consider as his best? From 06-10 he fared the same way Paul did - played great but lost in the 1st 2 rounds due to not having enough help. Paul actually played better than Dirk did.

06 and 11 would be Dirk's two best years. And while Paul was scoring only 18 points in the game 7 against the much weaker Spurs than they were in 06...Dirk was scoring 37 and making the game saving play to get out of the 2nd round and make the finals...rofl

Not comparable. Dirk was hiding an injury in 07 and Dirk was going through the fact that his father was having major surgery and was clearly impacted by it. But let me guess....somehow the excuses are ok for Paul, but not Dirk. Right? I ask again how a conversation about peaks is resulting talking about Dirk's worst playoff performance of his career. It makes no sense. But that is all anyone can say about Dirk anymore now...they bring up 1 series in which the Warriors were a nightmare matchup, against Dirk's old coach, with a terrible coach, with Dirk hurt, and Dirk's father being in bad shape and having major surgery during the series. Yep...seems like a good idea to talk about that series in a discussion on peak play...

And no, he didn't. In 09 Dirk averaged 27/10/3 and got out of the first round. In 2010 Dirk averaged 27/8/3 64% TS.


But this is funny...you already listed Dirk as better than Paul. Are you now changing? Or are you just butt hurt because you don't know enough about the history of the NBA?

Because honestly. Debating with someone that doesn't think Pippen is as good or better than Paul is a waste of time.

[DMAVS41]

And what other players that I listed do you dispute? You only named Cousy.

Who else on that list is Paul better than? Because I listed a lot of players...

[Young X]

06 and 11 would be Dirk's two best years. And while Paul was scoring only 18 points in the game 7 against the much weaker Spurs than they were in 06...Dirk was scoring 37 and making the game saving play to get out of the 2nd round and make the finals...rofl

And no, he didn't. In 09 Dirk averaged 27/10/3 and got out of the first round. In 2010 Dirk averaged 27/8/3 64% TS.Why didn't he get past the 2nd round from 06-10 tho? Did he suddenly get worse after 06? :oldlol:

You tried to clown Paul for not getting past the 2nd round when the same thing that happened to Paul happened to Dirk in some of his best seasons. The only difference is Paul played on an inferior team and never lost to a team clearly worse than his like Dirk did...

[DMAVS41]

Why didn't he get past the 2nd round from 06-10 tho? Did he suddenly get worse after 06? :oldlol:

You tried to clown Paul for not getting past the 2nd round when the same thing that happened to Paul happened to Dirk in some of his best seasons. The only difference is Paul played on worse team and never lost to a team clearly worse than his like Dirk did...

I clowned Paul for never getting past the 2nd round. In Dirk's two best years he made the finals and then won it. That matters...again...we are talking peaks. Whatever year you go with for Paul...he never made it out of the 2nd round. And that hurts him...especially when being compared to Dirk now...

And why cut it off at 10? Why not continue it to 11? Could there be an agenda here? Like Dirk making the finals in 06 and winning it all in 11?

Did he suddenly get worse? Actually, yes!!!! Dirk was awful in the 07 playoffs. If he had played as well as 06 he would have easily gotten out of the 2nd round. Hence that isn't a year talked about as Dirk's peak. Do the circumstances of that series like Dirk being injured and Dirk's dad going through surgery mid series factor in? Or does being hurt only impact Paul? And honestly...isn't it time we say that when a player averages 20/11/2 51% TS and his team can't sniff the 2nd round...said team is really not that great? I mean...at some point that series has to be put to bed...Kobe averaged 24/4/4 51% TS in the 10 first round and his team won in 6. I hope the difference is not lost on people...

Again...you claimed Paul was top 30. The burden of proof is on you. I'm listing almost 45 players. And all you can do is talk about Cousy?

I'll ask again...are you now saying Paul was better than Dirk?

[magnax1]

Peak Dirk is not failing to get out of the 2nd round ever...it's not happening.

Certainly not with a team like the 08 Hornets. With West, Peja, and Chandler...LOL
Youre insane when it comes to dirk. Dirk didnt get out of the first round in both 07 and 08 than lost kn the 2nd round in 09, and lost in the first round in 10 which are arguably his two best seasons. In fact I remember you arguing that he was every bit as good in 10 and 09 as 11 against GOAT.

[Young X]

I clowned Paul for never getting past the 2nd round. In Dirk's two best years he made the finals and then won it. That matters...again...we are talking peaks. Whatever year you go with for Paul...he never made it out of the 2nd round. And that hurts him...especially when being compared to Dirk now...

And why cut it off at 10? Why not continue it to 11? Could there be an agenda here?Because they weren't in comparable situations. Dirk had teammates that stepped up and played championship level ball, while Paul has played with terrible supporting casts in the playoffs so far. I used 06-10 because that's the only time where Dirk was in a similar position as Paul.
I'll ask again...are you now saying Paul was better than Dirk?
Depends on what year. 07? Yes. I'm not sure if Paul could do what Dirk did in 11 though.

And what other players that I listed do you dispute? You only named Cousy.

Who else on that list is Paul better than? Because I listed a lot of players...
Kidd, Pippen, Thomas, Iverson, Cousy, Nique, Gervin, Webber, Drexler, McHale.

[DMAVS41]

Youre insane when it comes to dirk. Dirk didnt get out of the first round in both 07 and 08 than lost kn the 2nd round in 09, and lost in the first round in 10 which are arguably his two best seasons. In fact I remember you arguing that he was every bit as good in 10 and 09 as 11 against GOAT.

I said "ever"....do you not follow? Paul has never...ever gotten out of the 2nd round.

Dirk is not having that happen to him in any form at his peak over 5 trips to the playoffs!

This is about peak play. It's about 08 vs 06 or 11. Its about nothing else. Stop bringing up other years. Unless you want to compare the whole to the whole. You don't get to use Paul's best year against Dirk's worst year...etc.

It's shocking how retarded this is...the year you would pick as Dirk's peak is either 06 or 11. You don't get to start comparing Paul in 08 to Dirk in 07 in a debate on peak play. But you had to do that because you have nothing in your favor...

[DMAVS41]

Because they weren't in comparable situations. Dirk had teammates that stepped up and played championship level ball, while Paul has played with terrible supporting casts in the playoffs so far. I used 06-10 because that's the only time where Dirk was in a similar position as Paul.Depends on what year. 07? Yes. I'm not sure if Paul could do what Dirk did in 11 though.

Kidd, Pippen, Thomas, Iverson, Cousy, Nique, Gervin, Webber, Drexler, McHale.


Seriously. Stop it. Why would we be talking about 07 in a discussion on peaks? It's the ultimate red herring. It's so funny to see how people just arbitrarily change shit when they feel ignorant. Starts off with you listing Dirk over Paul in peak...and now you are debating it and bringing up 07...which still makes no sense.

Lets compare 07 to Paul's worst series. Oh wait...we already did that...and Paul's series was much worse. LOL

So you think Paul is clearly better than Pippen and Iverson? Like...really? Pippen had a 22/9/6 playoff run to the title in which he played defense on a level Paul can't even dream of. And I'm supposed to list a guy that's never been out of the 2nd round that has marginally better numbers 1 year in 12 playoff games and doesn't defend half as well over peak Pippen? That is absurd.

Paul has simply not done enough. And you are under-rating the 08 Hornets. A 21/9/3 David West with prime Chandler. Peja...and some solid role players like Wells and Mo-Pete.

[Young X]

I said "ever"....do you not follow? Paul has never...ever gotten out of the 2nd round.

Dirk is not having that happen to him in any form at his peak over 5 trips to the playoffs!Before he joined KAJ it took Oscar Robertson 10 years to get past the 2nd round, he even missed the playoffs twice in his prime. Where do you rank Oscar Robertson's peak?

[DMAVS41]

It took Oscar Robertson 10 years to get past the 2nd round, he even missed the playoffs twice in his prime. Where do you rank Oscar Robertson's peak?

I didn't get to see him play...so I can't really rank it so I have to go by the historians of the game.

All of which rank it somewhere in the top 15.

[inclinerator]

bird dirk

[magnax1]

I said "ever"....do you not follow? Paul has never...ever gotten out of the 2nd round.

Dirk is not having that happen to him in any form at his peak over 5 trips to the playoffs!
Whatever you're trying to say, it's poorly worded. Dirk has failed to get out of the 2nd round during his peak years. Multiple times.




This is about peak play. It's about 08 vs 06 or 11.
You yourself have said 09 and 10 are equal to his peak in 11 and the difference was the team. In other words 09 and 10 are his peak.

If I actually thought you could have a reasonable debate about his play and not bring up irelevant things like 5 games in a the playoffs, or whether his team won or lost, I wouldn't bring up the fact that you're contradicting yourself.
I'm not really even saying there is a huge gap or anything. Offensively though CP3 is the next closest thing to the elite PGs in Magic Isiah Stockton and Nash (and throw in West and OScar if you want to call either PGs) He's had a run straight up matching those guys best runs in the playoffs in impact in 08.

[bizil]

I would say Magic to CP3 ONLY DUE TO SIZE! And that's it flat out. CP3 is more in that pound for pound little man argument with Isiah, Tiny, and AI. Dirk, Magic, and Bird all revolutionized the sport in an epic manner. The only major differences between Bird and Dirk is Bird's passing ability and more crafty defense. But on the other hand, Dirk is a bigger mismatch problem than Bird in my book. But my guy CP3 is going to VERY SOON start marching up the top 10 GOAT PG ladder very soon. The only question is how far will he go up!

[DMAVS41]

Whatever you're trying to say, it's poorly worded. Dirk has failed to get out of the 2nd round during his peak years. Multiple times.




You yourself have said 09 and 10 are equal to his peak in 11 and the difference was the team. In other words 09 and 10 are his peak.

If I actually thought you could have a reasonable debate about his play and not bring up irelevant things like 5 games in a the playoffs, or whether his team won or lost, I wouldn't bring up the fact that you're contradicting yourself.
I'm not really even saying there is a huge gap or anything. Offensively though CP3 is the next closest thing to the elite PGs in Magic Isiah Stockton and Nash (and throw in West and OScar if you want to call either PGs) He's had a run straight up matching those guys best runs in the playoffs in impact in 08.

You are making an argument about prime...not peak. This was peak vs peak...as in 1 year vs 1 other year as Young X constantly refers to 08.

So you are having a completely different conversation.

If I thought you could actually talk about basketball in any way or read you'd understand that rather than jump in a conversation.

Huge gap? ROFL...you think there is any gap in favor of a pg that has never been out of the 2nd round in his career? LOL

And I actually love Paul. This isn't me hating on him at all. But to claim he's better than peak Pippen, Ewing, Iverson...etc. Is non-sense. I don't know where you put him, but if you think he's done enough to warrant the kind of talk he's getting from Young X...you are nuts.

Paul at his best has done nothing to prove he's better than the likes of Jason Kidd or Gary Payton at their best...let alone guys like Dirk and Pippen.

Again...the 08 team is not nearly as bad as it's made out to be. And that is all we have for him. That's his best. So you have to compare his best to the best of others. And when you do...you see the difference. Like Paul only going for 18 points in the deciding game 7 and not being able to take over...while 06 Dirk was dropping 37 on a much better Spurs team. And winning...

Peak is always going to be a small sample size...you keep confusing that with prime.

You want to talk prime...just say so.

[Young X]

@DMAVS

Paul in 08 basically had the same season KD did last season. Where would you rank Durant's 13 season?

[Norcaliblunt]

So 07 is one of Dirks best statistical years where he wins the MVP, and leads his team to 67 wins the leagues best record, but because he lost in the playoffs it is not apart of his peak? So peak by definition is just whatever the greatest amount of team success you achieved in any specific year? What about players like Kobe or KG who's best individual seasons didn't happen in their title runs? What would their peaks be? Just curious.

[magnax1]

You are making an argument about prime...not peak. This was peak vs peak...as in 1 year vs 1 other year as Young X constantly refers to 08.
Soooo.... you're saying 09 and 10 aren't equal to his year in 11 now? What changed? All I'm saying is nothing diferentiates 11 as his peak except team success which should be irrelevant when talking about an individual (to a certain level)



Huge gap? ROFL...you think there is any gap in favor of a pg that has never been out of the 2nd round in his career? LOL
Pretty sure you're just misreading what I said, or I have no clue what you're talking about.


And I actually love Paul. This isn't me hating on him at all. But to claim he's better than peak Pippen, Ewing, Iverson...etc. Is non-sense. I don't know where you put him, but if you think he's done enough to warrant the kind of talk he's getting from Young X...you are nuts.
I really haven't talked about anything Young X has said. CP3 is probably in the same tier as Pippen and AI in peak.


Paul at his best has done nothing to prove he's better than the likes of Jason Kidd or Gary Payton at their best...let alone guys like Dirk and Pippen.
Except for being much more productive, especially offensively. IIRC Kidd during his whole career before coming back to Dallas had 1 (maybe 2?) seasons with a top 15 offense in the league. That's really incredibly pathetic for an eite PG. You can't say he lacked talent either. I mean, one year he had VC, RJ, and Kristic and was 25th on offense. I think if anything Kidd is under rated defensively, but I don't buy him as an all time elite offensive point guard because I just can't see any other all time elite point doing as poorly as him with the pieces he had. He couldn't score, the points he did score were very inneficient, and wasn't a creator like Nash or Magic. He was amazing at working a set offense or a break though. He doesn't get enough credit for running the offense in 11.
CP3's lowest rank when healthy was like 15 in 09, and I think every other year after he entered his prime and was healthy is top 5. He really just isn't comparable to the 4 elite PGs like CP3.
Gary Payton was a good offensive player, but he wasn't much of a PG. He was too ball dominant, dribbled too much, was kind of a chucker etc. He was not really a real PG. A good offensive player, but once again not comparable to CP3. If you want to say they were better because of there defense, alright, but that's a stretch IMO.


Again...the 08 team is not nearly as bad as it's made out to be. And that is all we have for him.
Yeah, I don't disagree, but almost no one is going to win a championship with it. The best player at the time had a similar team and lost in the finals.


That's his best. So you have to compare his best to the best of others.
Okay, but you're not comparing his best. You're comparing the Hornets best when you say the 08 team is not nearly as bad as it's made to be. Talk about CP3 in 08 as a whole and there is a conversation worth having.

[kentatm]

I think Paul is on the short list of best pg ever after Magic.

lol no

Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton, Oscar Robertson, Walt Frazier, Lenny Wilkins, Bob Cousy, and even Steve Nash are all ahead of CP3. You can also add Jerry West and Allen Iverson if you consider them PGs.

[Pointguard]

So Paul Pierce and Jason Kidd have better peaks than a guy who is/was putting up Magic Johnson type production at his peak while almost fairly winning MVP over Kobe in one of his best seasons?
I'm with Dmavs here. Kidd, nearly won MVP when Shaq, Duncan, KG and Kobe were all having great years. That was the wrong argument to bring up. And he did it after bringing a last place team to the finals two straight years while being the only interchangeable piece and replacing one of the most impressive statistical PG in the recent era.

I think the bigger gap is Magic/CP3 - primarily because Magic Johnson had more control of a game than any player ever. CP3 is a real player tho.

[Legends66NBA7]

So 07 is one of Dirks best statistical years where he wins the MVP, and leads his team to 67 wins the leagues best record, but because he lost in the playoffs it is not apart of his peak? So peak by definition is just whatever the greatest amount of team success you achieved in any specific year? What about players like Kobe or KG who's best individual seasons didn't happen in their title runs? What would their peaks be? Just curious.

I think peak has to do with the combination of a great regular season and playoff play. Most would consider Dirk's 2005-06 season as is peak. His 2007, due to his poor playoff play isn't considered his peak regardless of his 2006-07 regular season.

Bryant's peak is probably considered from 05-06 to 07-08, statistically speaking he didn't have much of a drop off from both regular season and playoffs.. Garnett's seems more clear, it's 03-04.

[DMAVS41]

So 07 is one of Dirks best statistical years where he wins the MVP, and leads his team to 67 wins the leagues best record, but because he lost in the playoffs it is not apart of his peak? So peak by definition is just whatever the greatest amount of team success you achieved in any specific year? What about players like Kobe or KG who's best individual seasons didn't happen in their title runs? What would their peaks be? Just curious.

It's a combination. You can't say that Dirk was at his best in 07 because he played his worse playoff series of his career. That just doesn't make sense.

You you look at a combination of individual play and team success based on circumstances.

[DMAVS41]

Soooo.... you're saying 09 and 10 aren't equal to his year in 11 now? What changed? All I'm saying is nothing diferentiates 11 as his peak except team success which should be irrelevant when talking about an individual (to a certain level)



Pretty sure you're just misreading what I said, or I have no clue what you're talking about.

.
I really haven't talked about anything Young X has said. CP3 is probably in the same tier as Pippen and AI in peak.


Except for being much more productive, especially offensively. IIRC Kidd during his whole career before coming back to Dallas had 1 (maybe 2?) seasons with a top 15 offense in the league. That's really incredibly pathetic for an eite PG. You can't say he lacked talent either. I mean, one year he had VC, RJ, and Kristic and was 25th on offense. I think if anything Kidd is under rated defensively, but I don't buy him as an all time elite offensive point guard because I just can't see any other all time elite point doing as poorly as him with the pieces he had. He couldn't score, the points he did score were very inneficient, and wasn't a creator like Nash or Magic. He was amazing at working a set offense or a break though. He doesn't get enough credit for running the offense in 11.
CP3's lowest rank when healthy was like 15 in 09, and I think every other year after he entered his prime and was healthy is top 5. He really just isn't comparable to the 4 elite PGs like CP3.
Gary Payton was a good offensive player, but he wasn't much of a PG. He was too ball dominant, dribbled too much, was kind of a chucker etc. He was not really a real PG. A good offensive player, but once again not comparable to CP3. If you want to say they were better because of there defense, alright, but that's a stretch IMO.


Yeah, I don't disagree, but almost no one is going to win a championship with it. The best player at the time had a similar team and lost in the finals.


Okay, but you're not comparing his best. You're comparing the Hornets best when you say the 08 team is not nearly as bad as it's made to be. Talk about CP3 in 08 as a whole and there is a conversation worth having.

I did talk about CP3 as a whole in 08. He was great, but we are comparing that to the best years ever for other players. And while Paul was not taking over game 7 against the Spurs...doing nothing in the last minute of a 3 point game...other players like Dirk in the best years/moments...did more. Dirk's dropping 37/15/3 and making game saving plays in a road game 7...leading his team to an upset and the NBA finals. Paul is losing in the 2nd round with a team that was more than capable of beating that Spurs team if Paul is supposed to be on the Dirk level. Which he isn't of course.

You can't just ignore that stuff.

Paul is great. I probably value him more than most actually...that is the funny part. KenATM I think holds a more than valid opinion here and think he's more in line with conventional thinking about Paul.

To just claim he's better than peak Dirk just seems silly. In reality, he's done nothing to prove he's better than peak Webber or peak Payton or peak Kidd...and the list goes on...all the way up to 45 or 50 with ease of players that had as good or better peaks.

Sorry.

[DMAVS41]

lol no

Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton, Oscar Robertson, Walt Frazier, Lenny Wilkins, Bob Cousy, and even Steve Nash are all ahead of CP3. You can also add Jerry West and Allen Iverson if you consider them PGs.

Not sure what you are laughing at. I already listed Thomas, Kidd, Robertson, Cousy, West, and Iverson.

Although I consider West and Iverson more sg's.

I disagree about Stockton, Frazier, Wilkins, and Nash...and really don't think Payton was better....i'd put those guys on equal to or slightly below peak Paul.

But that is a pretty short list. I mean that is just semantics....being like one of the top 8 pg's ever is for me.

[tpols]

Since Bird=Magic and Dirk is easily better than CP3, first one is bigger gap. If you put Dirk on some of those stacked Celtic teams he could do a lot of the same things Bird did. Only difference is he wouldnt be able to pass as well, but he would be able to shoot better and be a bigger mismatch in the clutch.

Whats CP3 doing on those Laker teams? He isnt scoring like Magic.. he isnt passing like Magic.. he isnt rebounding like Magic. He cant be versatile like Magic when he switched to center and took over a Finals game. He's just not as good at any aspect of the game plus he lacks size.

CP3 is the perfect example of a guy who puts up pretty numbers and is super efficient but he isnt individually dominant ie taking over games. I'd rather have an Isaih Thomas type who will be less efficient but will go HAM and take over games leading to wins and not be super conservative in favor of the stat sheet.



Except for being much more productive, especially offensively. IIRC Kidd during his whole career before coming back to Dallas had 1 (maybe 2?) seasons with a top 15 offense in the league. That's really incredibly pathetic for an eite PG. You can't say he lacked talent either. I mean, one year he had VC, RJ, and Kristic and was 25th on offense. I think if anything Kidd is under rated defensively, but I don't buy him as an all time elite offensive point guard because I just can't see any other all time elite point doing as poorly as him with the pieces he had. He couldn't score, the points he did score were very inneficient, and wasn't a creator like Nash or Magic. He was amazing at working a set offense or a break though. He doesn't get enough credit for running the offense in 11.
CP3's lowest rank when healthy was like 15 in 09, and I think every other year after he entered his prime and was healthy is top 5. He really just isn't comparable to the 4 elite PGs like CP3.

Nets were one of the slower paced teams in the league and put a premium on defense over offense. When Kidd joined the team they went from 23rd ranked defense to first.. and were always elite defensively while he was in his prime.

Were talking about a player who closed out Piston, Celtic and Indiana teams while posting triple double numbers. I dont care if Paul gets an efficient 20/10 60TS statline while deferring and losing. Kidd was dropping 17/10/10 with truly elite and disruptive defense, 23/10/7 and so on against really elite defensive teams.

The only thing Kidd is missing over Paul is that he cant shoot like him and he isnt as good a ballhandler in the half court. But Kidd could take over games with his rebounding to transition play, his defense, his setting teams up in the right spots. He didnt put up gaudy efficiency but just by being active and persistent in every facet of the game he had great impact and the results bear it.

[pauk]

Before he joined KAJ it took Oscar Robertson 10 years to get past the 2nd round, he even missed the playoffs twice in his prime. Where do you rank Oscar Robertson's peak?

You do know that this is a team game right, not tennis?

[DMAVS41]

Since Bird=Magic and Dirk is easily better than CP3, first one is bigger gap. If you put Dirk on some of those stacked Celtic teams he could do a lot of the same things Bird did. Only difference is he wouldnt be able to pass as well, but he would be able to shoot better and be a bigger mismatch in the clutch.

Whats CP3 doing on those Laker teams? He isnt scoring like Magic.. he isnt passing like Magic.. he isnt rebounding like Magic. He cant be versatile like Magic when he switched to center and took over a Finals game. He's just not as good at any aspect of the game plus he lacks size.

CP3 is the perfect example of a guy who puts up pretty numbers and is super efficient but he isnt individually dominant ie taking over games. I'd rather have an Isaih Thomas type who will be less efficient but will go HAM and take over games leading to wins and not be super conservative in favor of the stat sheet.


Nets were one of the slower paced teams in the league and put a premium on defense over offense. When Kidd joined the team they went from 23rd ranked defense to first.. and were always elite defensively while he was in his prime.

Were talking about a player who closed out Piston, Celtic and Indiana teams while posting triple double numbers. I dont care if Paul gets an efficient 20/10 60TS statline while deferring and losing. Kidd was dropping 17/10/10 with truly elite and disruptive defense, 23/10/7 and so on against really elite defensive teams.

The only thing Kidd is missing over Paul is that he cant shoot like him and he isnt as good a ballhandler in the half court. But Kidd could take over games with his rebounding to transition play, his defense, his setting teams up in the right spots. He didnt put up gaudy efficiency but just by being active and persistent in every facet of the game he had great impact and the results bear it.

Yea...uhhh...this.

It's not a knock on CP3 either...he's great, but to claim like some have that he's clearly better than Kidd is just a joke. He simply has not done enough to warrant such statements.

And tpols is dead on about Paul's numbers. His impact is not as good as those numbers. Well, I should say it a different way;

Paul does nothing to impact the game outside of the stat sheet really. Everything he does is recorded by stats more or less. It's hard to explain without writing pages and pages, but it's why current Dirk is probably as valuable as current Love. I feel that way about Kidd...so much hidden value that isn't picked up by the stat sheets.

[DMAVS41]

That's the point I was trying to make. DMAVS was penalyzing Paul for not getting past the 2nd round when Oscar, a player greater than him took even longer to get past the 2nd round. I just brought up Robertson to see if he was consistent with his argument/logic.
Why do you keep saying this? Paul takes over games all the time. In 2012, he was most productive 4th quarter player by a huge margin, he's hit at least 20 game winners that I know of so far in his career, hits momentum changing shots, game saving shots all the time. Even had a game vs Minny this season where he had 16 points in 5 minutes in the 4th quarter.

His teams in NOH were some of the best crunchtime teams in the league because of him, hell, he almost beat the Lakers in the playoffs by himself. Anyone who's watched him regularly knows he dominates/takes over games all the time, that's actually one of the criticisms that people have of the Clippers, they're too reliant on Paul down the stretch of games.


I didn't see Oscar...so I can't really say much.

I did see Paul in 08...and while he was great, he didn't take over game 7. He scored 18 points. And had great stats, but he didn't take over when his team was down only 3 with over a minute left.

If we are comparing the greatest seasons of the best players of all time...a lackluster game 7 performance in a loss in the 2nd round is going to matter...and matter a lot considering other guys have done better.

You do realize this...right?

[Young X]

You do know that this is a team game right, not tennis?That's the point I was trying to make. DMAVS was penalyzing Paul for not getting past the 2nd round when Oscar, a player greater than him took even longer to get past the 2nd round, even Dirk himself went 4 years without getting past the 2nd round in his prime. Kareem missed the playoffs twice in his prime too. I just brought up Robertson to see if he was consistent with his argument/logic.

CP3 is the perfect example of a guy who puts up pretty numbers and is super efficient but he isnt individually dominant ie taking over games.Why do you keep saying this? Paul takes over games all the time. In 2012, he was most productive 4th quarter player by a huge margin, he's hit at least 20 game winners that I know of so far in his career, hits momentum changing shots, game saving shots all the time. Even had a game vs Minny this season where he had 16 points in 5 minutes in the 4th quarter.

His teams in NOH were some of the best crunchtime teams in the league because of him, hell, he almost beat the Lakers in the playoffs by himself. Anyone who's watched him regularly knows he dominates/takes over games all the time, that's actually one of the criticisms that people have of the Clippers, they're too reliant on Paul down the stretch of games.

Example against your team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4XtjFMuKCY


I didn't see Oscar...so I can't really say much.

I did see Paul in 08...and while he was great, he didn't take over game 7. He scored 18 points. And had great stats, but he didn't take over when his team was down only 3 with over a minute left.

If we are comparing the greatest seasons of the best players of all time...a lackluster game 7 performance in a loss in the 2nd round is going to matter...and matter a lot considering other guys have done better.

You do realize this...right?I realize that, but that one situation shouldn't outweigh what he did prior to that. Kobe in 06 against the Suns had an even worse game 7 in the 1st round. Does that one situation keep his 2006 season from being a top 30 peak despite how brilliant he was before that?

[Pointguard]

Kidd took two teams to the finals and would have beaten the world champs in the third year if he didn't get hurt. They were definitely last place teams without him. Not even Shaq or Duncan could have done anything with that team. One of the greatest long time overachievements in the history of the game. On one of those teams nobody got 16ppg or 8 rpg over the regular season. Not one creative player. Not one consistent shooter. I still marvel at that. No other player could win like that in a half court game over three years.

[tpols]

@YoungX, I know CP3 has taken over games.. every superstar in the NBA has taken over games. But a consistent problem with Paul that even fans of him would admit to, is that he shies away from shooting and becomes to conservative at times where its necessary for him to put the pedal to the floor.


Way I look at CP3 is with Iverson.. CP3 destroys Iverson by any measure of advanced stats, efficiency, etc. But would anyone say that what CP3 has done in this league is better than what Iverson has done? Theyre about the same honestly. Because Iverson, when his game was on, was a dominant player. CP3 is more consistent in that he will always give you a consistent production, but he rarely goes above and beyond and flat out dominates. Not saying he never has, but its like hes out there to just run an efficient offense and thats it. Maybe he cares about his numbers too much and wont shoot himself out of a cold streak.. idk. But sometimes you need your offensive superstar to go off on an individual level.


Weve seen guys lik Rondo who isnt even close to as good a scorer as CP3 drop 44 point games in the ECF against top rated miami defense.. nailing threes stepping outside of his comfort zone as the assist man to try and save the team.

[DMAVS41]

That's the point I was trying to make. DMAVS was penalyzing Paul for not getting past the 2nd round when Oscar, a player greater than him took even longer to get past the 2nd round, even Dirk himself went 4 years without getting past the 2nd round in his prime. Kareem missed the playoffs twice in his prime too. I just brought up Robertson to see if he was consistent with his argument/logic.
Why do you keep saying this? Paul takes over games all the time. In 2012, he was most productive 4th quarter player by a huge margin, he's hit at least 20 game winners that I know of so far in his career, hits momentum changing shots, game saving shots all the time. Even had a game vs Minny this season where he had 16 points in 5 minutes in the 4th quarter.

His teams in NOH were some of the best crunchtime teams in the league because of him, hell, he almost beat the Lakers in the playoffs by himself. Anyone who's watched him regularly knows he dominates/takes over games all the time, that's actually one of the criticisms that people have of the Clippers, they're too reliant on Paul down the stretch of games.

Example against your team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4XtjFMuKCY

I realize that, but that one situation shouldn't outweigh what he did prior to that. Kobe in 06 against the Suns had an even worse game 7 in the 1st round. Does that one situation keep his 2006 season from being a top 30 peak despite how brilliant he was before that?

With Kobe? Not sure...it might. His 06 season is super over-rated for me. Lebron put up just as good regular season numbers basically.

But, to compare Paul's 08 season to Kobe's 06 is pretty unfair in my opinion. Kobe's just a better player than Paul has ever been.

I just think you over-rate Paul because of his production at times. Especially because other players have had great years as well. Like Stockton...who I think is actually worse than Paul, but Stockton had a 17/5/3 season and played better defense than Paul. Had a 20/15/4 62% TS playoffs in 88 in 11 games. I just don't think Paul has done anything to date to put him over that by any meaningful margin.

[Young X]

@YoungX, I know CP3 has taken over games.. every superstar in the NBA has taken over games. But a consistent problem with Paul that even fans of him would admit to, is that he shies away from shooting and becomes to conservative at times where its necessary for him to put the pedal to the floor. I'm not gonna lie he does do this sometimes but most of the time it's the exact opposite: he'll play passive in the 1st 3 quarters and then explode in the the 4th quarter.

Also scoring isn't the only way you can take over games, setting up teammates, getting key steals are also ways you can take over which Paul is great at. Scoring is most important though.

Weve seen guys lik Rondo who isnt even close to as good a scorer as CP3 drop 44 point games in the ECF against top rated miami defense.. nailing threes stepping outside of his comfort zone as the assist man to try and save the team.Paul does this too though. He hasn't had a 40 pt game in the playoffs but:

35 pts/1 TO against #2 ranked Memphis defense last postseason

35/9 against defending champ 08 Spurs

33/14/7 against defending champ 11 Lakers

27/15/13 against defending champ 11 Lakers

I can go on and on...

His scoring rate and aggression is higher in the playoffs than the regular season and he's played nothing but tough teams.

With Kobe? Not sure...it might. His 06 season is super over-rated for me. Lebron put up just as good regular season numbers basically.Where do you rank it?

I just think you over-rate Paul because of his production at times. Especially because other players have had great years as well. Like Stockton...who I think is actually worse than Paul, but Stockton had a 17/5/3 season and played better defense than Paul. Had a 20/15/4 62% TS playoffs in 88 in 11 games. I just don't think Paul has done anything to date to put him over that by any meaningful margin.It's not just the production, it's his all around skill set. Efficient scoring, elite playmaker, great rebounder for a guard, solid/good defender,etc. He's extremely accurate offensive player that plays very good/solid defense (leads league in stls/All NBA defensive teams) who can take over games and he has no dropoff in the postseason individually despite playing extremely tough opponents.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not gonna lie he does do this sometimes but most of the time it's the exact opposite: he'll play passive in the 1st 3 quarters and then explode in the the 4th quarter.

Also scoring isn't the only way you can take over games, setting up teammates, getting key steals are also ways you can take over which Paul is great at. Scoring is most important though.
Paul does this too though. He hasn't had a 40 pt game in the playoffs but:

35 pts/1 TO against #2 ranked Memphis defense last postseason

35/9 against defending champ 08 Spurs

33/14/7 against defending champ 11 Lakers

27/15/13 against defending champ 11 Lakers

I can go on and on...

His scoring rate and aggression is higher in the playoffs than the regular season and he's played nothing but tough teams.
Where do you rank it?
It's not just the production, it's his all around skill set. Efficient scoring, elite playmaker, great rebounder for a guard, solid/good defender,etc. He's extremely accurate offensive player that plays very good/solid defense (leads league in stls/All NBA defensive teams) who can take over games and he has no dropoff in the postseason individually despite playing extremely tough opponents.


I'm not sure where I rank it...I know I rank it higher than any of Paul's seasons.

You are just describing Paul...he's a great player. We both agree on that. You, however, are insisting that 08 Paul is a top 30 peak of all time. And I disagree with that.

You could say everything you just said about Paul...about Stockton. And Stockton was a better defender and playmaker/game manager than Paul...while being a lesser scorer.

I just don't think Paul has done anything to date to put him over the likes of a peak Stockton or peak Kidd. Thus I can't get on board with his peak being for sure top 30. Like I said, you could argue about it...but it's somewhere in the 40 to 50 range at first glance. But even then I'm probably not giving some players credit.

Like, do you think peak Paul was better than peak T-Mac? Did you get to watch a guy like Chris Mullin play? Do you think 08 Paul is clearly better than Mullin at his best? I don't know for me...Mullin was so good in the early 90's...dude had a 29/6/5 playoff run in 89 combined with a 27/6/5 regular season. One of the best shooters I've ever seen...

[Young X]

I'm not sure where I rank it...I know I rank it higher than any of Paul's seasons.Is is top 20? 30? I'm curious.

You are just describing Paul...he's a great player. We both agree on that. You, however, are insisting that 08 Paul is a top 30 peak of all time. And I disagree with that.You know what? Forget what I said earlier in this thread, I do think very highly of Paul as a player and I do think he has a top 30 peak but after listing all the players' peaks although I disagree, I can see why you guys wouldn't rank him that high.

You could say everything you just said about Paul...about Stockton. And Stockton was a better defender and playmaker/game manager than Paul...while being a lesser scorer.Stockton wasn't even close to the scorer that CP is. They're near equals when it comes to playmaking/defense/rebounding, but CP3 is a level above him as a scorer. That's why I think Paul's better.

Like, do you think peak Paul was better than peak T-Mac?Same level.

[DMAVS41]

Is is top 20? 30? I'm curious.
You know what? Forget what I said earlier in this thread, I do think very highly of Paul as a player and I do think he has a top 30 peak but after listing all the players' peaks although I disagree, I can see why you guys wouldn't rank him that high.
Stockton wasn't even close to the scorer that CP is. They're near equals when it comes to playmaking/defense/rebounding, but CP3 is a level above him as a scorer. That's why I think Paul's better.
Same level.

Somewhere around the 40 range probably...I don't consider that peak Kobe...so maybe not even that high.

I don't think Paul is equal to Stockton in terms of playmaking and defense.

[notatop29pg]

Was trying to resist posting in this... But then someone said CP3 doesnt impact games aside from stats. The guy pretty much keeps the clippers in every single game they play. Have you seen the bricks dudley/green and others have been putting up for the Clippers lately and over the years? (Minus Dudley). Im not even going to start on the Hornets teams he played on. Especially the last series they played the Lakers.

Im going to admit something that nobody her ever does... I havent ever watched a full game with prime Dirk involved.... Except for when his Mavs were getting single handedly bent over by CP3. But that wasnt Dirks prime obviously only his 10th season.. While Paul was in his 3rd.

But he has won a ring..

Didnt get to see Magic or Bird either, so cant compare.

[notatop29pg]

Somewhere around the 40 range probably...I don't consider that peak Kobe...so maybe not even that high.

I don't think Paul is equal to Stockton in terms of playmaking and defense.

I think Paul would abuse Stockton personaly. Stockton was a machine, but theres a big difference between pickp&roll with Malone than Dwest or Griffin.

[Young X]

Somewhere around the 40 range probably...I don't consider that peak Kobe...so maybe not even that high.So you really think their were near 40 players better than 06 Kobe? Is it just because of the bad closeout games?

I don't think Paul is equal to Stockton in terms of playmaking and defense.I meant that Paul and Stockton had a similar combination of playmaking/defense/rebounding. When you add the scoring, I feel Paul's a better player.

Paul's a clearly better rebounder.

Playmaking wise - Paul's 3rd all time in APG behind Magic and Stockton while having a much lower turnover rate than both and playing with worse teammates. He's also ran higher ranked offenses than Stockton. A number of players had their best shooting seasons/most efficient seasons playing with Paul. He might not be better but it's close either way.

Defense - They're both 2 of the best ball thieves in league history, similar size & quickness, both made All NBA defensive teams, both great pressure defenders, both scrappy, etc. There's no way I can prove they're comparable defenders, but I really don't see how they're not similar defenders.

Scoring - Paul's much better, he routinely has 10 pt 4th quarters, he has more 30 point playoff games last postseason than Stockton has in his entire career and peaked at +6 higher PPG than Stockton.

[DMAVS41]

So you really think their were near 40 players better than 06 Kobe? Is it just because of the bad closeout games?
I meant that Paul and Stockton had a similar combination of playmaking/defense/rebounding. When you add the scoring, I feel Paul's a better player.

Paul's a clearly better rebounder.

Playmaking wise - Paul's 3rd all time in APG behind Magic and Stockton while having a much lower turnover rate than both and playing with worse teammates. He's also ran higher ranked offenses than Stockton. A number of players had their best shooting seasons/most efficient seasons playing with Paul. He might not be better but it's close either way.

Defense - They're both 2 of the best ball thieves in league history, similar size & quickness, both made All NBA defensive teams, both great pressure defenders, both scrappy, etc. There's no way I can prove they're comparable defenders, but I really don't see how they're not similar defenders.

Scoring - Paul's much better, he routinely has 10 pt 4th quarters, he has more 30 point playoff games last postseason than Stockton has in his entire career and peaked at +6 higher PPG than Stockton.

Yea...somewhere in that range. Like I said...06 Kobe isn't his peak in my opinion. You want me to just rank 06 Kobe all time vs every season ever played? I have no idea where it ranks, but just think about simple math;

MJ, Magic, Bird, and Lebron alone probably combine for 20 seasons better than Kobe's 06 season...

So you are asking different questions now.

You are also now comparing Stockton and Paul overall it seems. Are we talking peak or career or prime...etc?

But I don't know what else to say other than Stockton (who I actually am not crazy high on all time) is getting under-rated big time here...as is Kidd. If Chris Paul to date is for sure better.

You might not like it, but never getting out of the 2nd round in a 9 year career now...it's hard to ignore that. Even without a lot of help. And that I would actually probably dispute...that 09 team is pretty under-rated...