2nd Best Player of the Jordan Era?

[NumberSix]

Who was Jordan's Kevin Durant?


Most people think Durant is the consensus #2 player to LeBron's #1 of this era.

Who the #2 player in the league during Jordan's championship era?

[Black and White]

LeBron had Kobe :biggums: Maybe more recently, but from 05 to 09 was LeBron #1? no

Edit: Just noticed you took it off

[SamuraiSWISH]

Take your pick:

Magic
Drexler
Barkley
Hakeem
Shaq
K. Malone

[NumberSix]

Take your pick:

Magic
Drexler
Barkley
Hakeem
Shaq
K. Malone
You misunderstand. I know there were great players. Obviously. But according to most people, Durant is the clear cut 2nd best player in the league. During Jordan's run, who was that guy?

[Black and White]

I really want to go with Hakeem for Jordans era.

[NumberSix]

I really want to go with Hakeem for Jordans era.
The problem with that though, is they never played a playoff series like how LeBron and Kobe didn't.

It just seems weird that he would be the #2 player of the era and they never faced off.

[moe94]

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/37/files/2013/01/HakeemOlajuwon_453_060621.jpg

Borderline insulting question.

[NumberSix]

We might need to makes a 1990s GOAT list.

[CelticBaller]

Hakeem

[DonDadda59]

Is this a serious question? :wtf:

MJ dominated the game when it was geared towards big men and some of the all time great bigs were all also-rans when he was around. Took him taking his talents to Minor League baseball for them to get any shine. But take your pick amongst:

Hakeem
Shaq
Robinson
Ewing
Malone
Barkley

Not even mentioning perimeter stars like Drexler, Reggie, Penny, Hill, etc. Personally, I'd take Dream. Luckily he got those 'ships when he could.

[NumberSix]

Hakeem
It seems true, but it just sounds really weird that Jordan NEVER faced off against the 2nd best player of the era.

[Black and White]

The problem with that though, is they never played a playoff series like how LeBron and Kobe didn't.

It just seems weird that he would be the #2 player of the era and they never faced off.

Sometimes thats just the way it happens I guess, lucky in this era we have already seen one matchup of LeBron v Durant and might see some more in the future, but the #1 and #2 player in the league don't always meet in the finals or playoffs etc.

[NumberSix]

Is this a serious question? :wtf:

MJ dominated the game when it was geared towards big men and some of the all time great bigs were all also-rans when he was around. Took him taking his talents to Minor League baseball for them to get any shine. But take your pick amongst:

Hakeem
Shaq
Robinson
Ewing
Malone
Barkley

Not even mentioning perimeter stars like Drexler, Reggie, Penny, Hill, etc. Personally, I'd take Dream. Luckily he got those 'ships when he could.
Not what I'm asking. I'm asking who was the #2 player of the era. 8 different guys can't fill 1 slot.

I'll change my OP. I obviously wasn't clear enough.

[DonDadda59]

It seems true, but it just sounds really weird that Jordan NEVER faced off against the 2nd best player of the era.

You mean just the finals right?

How many years did we have to put up with those Lebron-Kobe puppets without them ever meeting for a championship showdown? :oldlol:

Everyone, Nike included, thought it was a foregone conclusion that the best players in the game would duke it out for a ring in a Cavs-Lakers series. Obviously never happened. Just the way the ball bounces sometimes. And for the record, at the time, most observers had Malone as the #2 guy in the league (he even beat out Jordan for MVP) and Mike went ahead and ripped his heart out 2 consecutive years on the big stage.

[NumberSix]

Sometimes thats just the way it happens I guess, lucky in this era we have already seen one matchup of LeBron v Durant and might see some more in the future, but the #1 and #2 player in the league don't always meet in the finals or playoffs etc.
True. I personally believe we will see a minimum of 2 LeBron vs Durant finals series.

[NumberSix]

You mean just the finals right?

How many years did we have to put up with those Lebron-Kobe puppets without them ever meeting for a championship showdown? :oldlol:

Just the way the ball bounces sometimes. And for the record, at the time, most observers had Malone as the #2 guy in the league (he even beat out Jordan for MVP) and Mike went ahead and ripped his heart out 2 consecutive years on the big stage.
No. I only used the finals for LeBron and KD because they're in different conferences. That's the only time they can play each other.

[inclinerator]

pprobably kevin durant

[Round Mound]

Hakeem. Then Barkley

[Black and White]

True. I personally believe we will see a minimum of 2 LeBron vs Durant finals series.

Yea I think there will be one more matchup with them on their current teams and then there will probably be another matchup with one of them on another team or both on different teams, who knows, either way this is the LeBron and Durant era, I think it's much easier for these two to meet in the finals than it was for Jordan and Hakeem

[jbryan1984]

I would have to say Hakeem over Ewing, Barkley and Malone because of his championships. I don't really consider Bird or Magic part of the Jordan era. I feel they had their era and slowly phased out when it was clear Jordan was number 1 by the time we hit the 90s.

[ProfessorMurder]

Karl Malone. Elite production forever.

[NumberSix]

It really is weird that the Rockets went to the finals the exact 2 years that the bulls didn't.

About Malone..... I know about the MVP and his team winning the West, but does anyone actually consider him the 2nd best player in the league at that time? I would say that Shaq was definitely better than Malone at the time.

[Micku]

It seems true, but it just sounds really weird that Jordan NEVER faced off against the 2nd best player of the era.

Depends on what year you are talking about tho.

Magic Johnson was the second best player in 91.

I think Cylde was considered the second best guard in 92.

Barkley was the second best player in 93.

Karl Malone was arguably second best player in 97 and 98.

Not to mention you had Shaq. Hakeem, David Robinson and Shaq I think was mostly considered the best players after Jordan left the first time with Hakeem winning the most.

[Psileas]

It seems true, but it just sounds really weird that Jordan NEVER faced off against the 2nd best player of the era.

The way the playoffs are structured, and with the teammates Hakeem had during the Bulls' dominance, it would be hard to expect anything better. The only real chance we had of seeing Jordan vs Hakeem when Jordan was active and Hakeem was playing All-NBA-level ball would be in 1997, although Hakeem had lost a step.

[moe94]

Karl Malone. Elite production forever.

Hilariously underrated. :(

[NumberSix]

Depends on what year you are talking about tho.

Magic Johnson was the second best player in 91.

I think Cylde was considered the second best guard in 92.

Barkley was the second best player in 93.

Karl Malone was arguably second best player in 97 and 98.

Not to mention you had Shaq. Hakeem, David Robinson and Shaq I think was mostly considered the best players after Jordan left the first time with Hakeem winning the most.
Seems to me like all you're doing is picking the best player on the team who won the west each year.

I don't think Malone was better than Shaq in 97 or 98. I don't think Drexler was anywhere near the 2nd best player in the NBA.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You misunderstand. I know there were great players. Obviously. But according to most people, Durant is the clear cut 2nd best player in the league. During Jordan's run, who was that guy?
Very simple. Take your pick. It evolved over the course of the decade.

[NumberSix]

Very simple. Take your pick. It evolved over the course of the decade.
If I have to make a judgement call, I'm gonna say Shaq was the 2nd best player of the 90s.

[moe94]

If I have to make a judgement call, I'm gonna say Shaq was the 2nd best player of the 90s.

Why not just say what you really want to say? :confusedshrug:

[guy]

It really is weird that the Rockets went to the finals the exact 2 years that the bulls didn't.

About Malone..... I know about the MVP and his team winning the West, but does anyone actually consider him the 2nd best player in the league at that time? I would say that Shaq was definitely better than Malone at the time.

Not really. He was injury prone and had leadership issues. On his best day at the time he was definitely better, but I'm sure most coaches at the time for those years would take Malone. Not to mention Malone and the Jazz embarrassed Shaq and the Lakers in the playoffs.

In the 90s it was Hakeem, but in the Jordan years of the 90s, the 2nd best player fluctuated a lot. You could argue that Jordan always faced the 2nd best player in the league in the Finals for that specific year except for 96 i.e. 91 Magic, 92 Drexler, 93 Barkley, 97 Malone, 98 Malone.

[fpliii]

Jordan and Hakeem are 1a/1b IMO.

[NumberSix]

Why not just say what you really want to say? :confusedshrug:
That Shaq was the 2nd best of the era? That wasn't my point of the thread. I've already said I think Shaq is a top 4 all time.

[bond10]

Durant's not the #2 player in the league, we clearly saw that in last year's playoffs. Dude can score 50 points and still lose. GOATbrook is the real #2.

[Black and White]

Durant's not the #2 player in the league, we clearly saw that in last year's playoffs. Dude can score 50 points and still lose. GOATbrook is the real #2.

No he is not, Durant, CP3, Paul George, LaMarcus are all better

[bond10]

Let's be honest. Jordan's era had several #2 guys, a new one each year it seemed. Lebron's playing in the weakest era ever with Kevin Durant (and that's where it ends sadly).

[Micku]

Seems to me like all you're doing is picking the best player on the team who won the west each year.

I don't think Malone was better than Shaq in 97 or 98. I don't think Drexler was anywhere near the 2nd best player in the NBA.

I said second best guard, not second best player with Drexler. Barkley was better that year. And David Robinson and Karl Malone.

That's fine if you don't think Karl Malone wasn't the best player in 97 and 98. I think Shaq was better too. But I can understand if someone thinks Karl Malone was better.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Let's be honest. Jordan's era had several #2 guys, a new one each year it seemed. Lebron's playing in the weakest era ever with Kevin Durant (and that's where it ends sadly).
KD will wind up an all-time great, no doubt but is anyone seriously insinuating he's better than these guys in the 90s at their prime or peaks?

'91 Magic
'90 - '95 Drexler
'90 - '97 Hakeem
'90 - '97 Barkley
'90 - '98 Malone
'90 - '97 D. Robinson
'90 - '96 Ewing
'93 - '99 Shaq

Or even better than:

'94 - '98 Penny
'94 - '99 Hill

[moe94]

KD will wind up an all-time great, no doubt but is anyone seriously insinuating he's better than these guys in the 90s at their prime or peaks?

'91 Magic
'90 - '95 Drexler
'90 - '97 Hakeem
'90 - '97 Barkley
'90 - '98 Malone
'90 - '97 D. Robinson
'90 - '96 Ewing

Or even better than:

'94 - '98 Penny
'94 - '99 Hill

Without a shadow of a doubt. Come on, man. :biggums:

[ProfessorMurder]

Not really. He was injury prone and had leadership issues. On his best day at the time he was definitely better, but I'm sure most coaches at the time for those years would take Malone. Not to mention Malone and the Jazz embarrassed Shaq and the Lakers in the playoffs.

Am I reading it wrong? Are you saying Shaq was injury prone, or are you saying Malone was injury prone?

Malone only missed 10 games in 18 seasons.

[moe94]

Am I reading it wrong? Are you saying Shaq was injury prone, or are you saying Malone was injury prone?

Malone only missed 10 games in 18 seasons.

Definitely talking about Shaq.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Without a shadow of a doubt. Come on, man. :biggums:
I don't think it's as dramatic as you make it sound. Even if I give you KD > Drexler, Hill, Penny. Which is plausible. That still leaves 6 to 7 players absolutely, definitively superior to the 2nd best player of the LeBron era. I'm talking clearly, leaps and bounds better.

[moe94]

I don't think it's as dramatic as you make it sound. Even if I give you KD > Drexler, Hill, Penny. Which is plausible. That still leaves 6 to 7 players absolutely, definitively superior to the 2nd best player of the LeBron era. I'm talking clearly, leaps and bounds better.

That's your opinion.

What I find really amusing is that Durant is "clearly, leaps and bounds" worse than them, while Jordan is "clearly, leaps and bounds" above them". Hyperbole helps no one.

[BlackVVaves]

If you wanted to create a thread to facetiously downplay KD, why didn't you just make another "KD ain't shit" thread?

Much less work involved.

[Sarcastic]

Jordan faced all of the greatest rivals from his era, except for Hakeem, who is kinda overrated. Jordan faced and beat Isiah, Magic, Bird, Ewing, Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Payton, Kemp, Shaq.

[moe94]

Jordan faced all of the greatest rivals from his era, except for Hakeem, who is kinda overrated. Jordan faced and beat Isiah, Magic, Bird, Ewing, Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Payton, Kemp, Shaq.

Yeah, I'd hold a grudge, too. :rolleyes:

[Black and White]

Jordan faced all of the greatest rivals from his era, except for Hakeem, who is kinda overrated. Jordan faced and beat Isiah, Magic, Bird, Ewing, Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Payton, Kemp, Shaq.

:biggums:

[SamuraiSWISH]

That's your opinion.
No: Magic, Shaq, Hakeem are all top ten players of all-time. And I definitely think the rest of the guys I mentioned, even without championship hardware were better too. Grant Hill, and Penny in the late 90s are being slept on here as well. You're definitely sleeping on Drexler's production too.

[moe94]

No: Magic, Shaq, Hakeem are all top ten players of all-time. And I definitely think the rest of the guys I mentioned, even without championship hardware were better too. Grant Hill, and Penny in the late 90s are being slept on here as well. You're definitely sleeping on Drexler's production too.

No, I'm not. They won nothing and two of them were nowhere near their true peaks. Durant, statistically, is above them and I really find an argument to the contrary as nothing more than delusion.

[Sarcastic]

Yeah, I'd hold a grudge, too. :rolleyes:


Not a grudge, just the facts. During his prime he wasn't considered to be the immortal that he is now. Most of his prime he wasn't even top 5 in MVP voting, and he certainly wasn't better than Magic nor Bird. If you had a time machine, and went back to late 80's/early 90's, most people would have Barkley and Malone ahead of him.

[Black and White]

Not a grudge, just the facts. During his prime he wasn't considered to be the immortal that he is now. Most of his prime he wasn't even top 5 in MVP voting, and he certainly wasn't better than Magic nor Bird. If you had a time machine, and went back to late 80's/early 90's, most people would have Barkley and Malone ahead of him.

Yea but now that its all said and done, Hakeem has proven himself as the better player and has finished with a better career than Barkley and Malone.

[pauk]

Reggie Miller :)

[Soundwave]

Probably Olajuwon. That era was loaded for bigs.

Jordan played in 2 eras though really ... the 80s/early 90s, then his comeback threepeat where guys like Shaq, Penny, Grant Hill, Kemp, Payton, etc. were starting to leave their mark.

[moe94]

Not a grudge, just the facts. During his prime he wasn't considered to be the immortal that he is now. Most of his prime he wasn't even top 5 in MVP voting, and he certainly wasn't better than Magic nor Bird. If you had a time machine, and went back to late 80's/early 90's, most people would have Barkley and Malone ahead of him.

Give me Hakeem over all of those to start a team. Give me peak Dream over all their peaks, Bird being the closest. I couldn't care less if you think it's revisionist. Look at the stats. Look at the accolades. This has nothing to do with being overrated. He was as good as advertised. His defense alone puts him over all of them.

[TonyMontana]

Jordans Kevin Durant was Scottie Pippen( a member of his own team). Other than these two extremely low competition on the swingmen position in those days. This is part of why he looked so good. The rest of the 90s featured stars were bigmen(players Jordan didn't have to match up with). Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman were the ones who had the honor of matching up with the oppositions best players.

[Soundwave]

Jordans Kevin Durant was Scottie Pippen( a member of his own team). Other than these two extremely low competition on the swingmen position in those days. This is part of why he looked so good. The rest of the 90s featured stars were bigmen(players Jordan didn't have to match up with). Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman were the ones who had the honor of matching up with the oppositions best players.

Clyde Drexler was the equivalent to Durant, not Pippen, and MJ shredded him in the Finals. Next.

There may be more talented swingmen in the NBA today (even that though I'm not sure about -- Dominique Wilkins and Reggie Miller and Mitch Richmond would be 22-30 ppg players in today's league), but part of that is because half the damn world grew up idolizing Jordan. No one wants to play as a big man anymore.

[Sarcastic]

Yea but now that its all said and done, Hakeem has proven himself as the better player and has finished with a better career than Barkley and Malone.

Yes, but he is not far and away better than them. He's certainly not better than Magic. I think Isiah gets really underrated on here, and should be closer. He put up 4 straight 20/10 seasons for a PG, which is unheard of.

I'm not saying Olajuwon wasn't great, but I just don't think he was far and away better than alot of the guys I named. They were all pretty damn close during their times.

[Sarcastic]

Give me Hakeem over all of those to start a team. Give me peak Dream over all their peaks, Bird being the closest. I couldn't care less if you think it's revisionist. Look at the stats. Look at the accolades. This has nothing to do with being overrated. He was as good as advertised. His defense alone puts him over all of them.


Bird's peak is way higher than Olajuwon, and it's not even close. The only thing that keeps Olajuwon close to Bird is he has more longevity, and Bird's back went out when he was young.


Olajuwon during his physical prime was losing in 3 or 4 games in the first round every damn year, in a weak Western Conference.

[K Xerxes]

Jordan faced all of the greatest rivals from his era, except for Hakeem, who is kinda overrated. Jordan faced and beat Isiah, Magic, Bird, Ewing, Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Payton, Kemp, Shaq.

Still sore that Hakeem embarrassed Ewing and denied your sorry ass Knicks the first championship after like 20 years?


Not a grudge, just the facts. During his prime he wasn't considered to be the immortal that he is now. Most of his prime he wasn't even top 5 in MVP voting, and he certainly wasn't better than Magic nor Bird. If you had a time machine, and went back to late 80's/early 90's, most people would have Barkley and Malone ahead of him.

Because MVP voting is a regular season award, dumbass. All of the other bigs dominated the regular season too, but he stepped it up in the playoffs and tore down his rivals when it counted. Rewatch the 1994 finals and 1995 WCF for a visual explanation.

[moe94]

Yes, but he is not far and away better than them. He's certainly not better than Magic. I think Isiah gets really underrated on here, and should be closer. He put up 4 straight 20/10 seasons for a PG, which is unheard of.

I'm not saying Olajuwon wasn't great, but I just don't think he was far and away better than alot of the guys I named. They were all pretty damn close during their times.

Without irony, you're arguing Isiah is comparable to Hakeem?

Also, I reject that Magic is even better. :confusedshrug:

Magic had loaded teams and his defense was beyond suspect.


Bird's peak is way higher than Olajuwon, and it's not even close.

Compare their stats and the fact that you're talking about MVP + DpotY caliber player and try saying that sentence again.

[NumberSix]

If you wanted to create a thread to facetiously downplay KD, why didn't you just make another "KD ain't shit" thread?

Much less work involved.
??? :confusedshrug:

[Black and White]

Yes, but he is not far and away better than them. He's certainly not better than Magic. I think Isiah gets really underrated on here, and should be closer. He put up 4 straight 20/10 seasons for a PG, which is unheard of.

I'm not saying Olajuwon wasn't great, but I just don't think he was far and away better than alot of the guys I named. They were all pretty damn close during their times.

Yea, it's all subjective, I think Hakeem was on a different level to Barkley, Malone and Ewing, thats just my opinion, he just did more on both ends of the court, his game was elite, sure he doesn't go down better than Magic, but he was to me the clear cut best big man at his peak.

[Odinn]

When you call Jordan-era, you mean his title seasons? Right? It'd be Chuck or Hakeem.

But Magic was the only individual that really challenged prime Jordan for the best in the L.

[NumberSix]

Still sore that Hakeem embarrassed Ewing and denied your sorry ass Knicks the first championship after like 20 years?
I wouldn't say "embarrassed". Not like it was a 4 or 5 game series.

[NumberSix]

When you call Jordan-era, you mean his title seasons? Right? It'd be Chuck or Hakeem.

But Magic was the only individual that really challenged prime Jordan for the best in the L.
Disagree. I don't think Magic was ever in Jordan's area code.

[TonyMontana]

Clyde Drexler was the equivalent to Durant, not Pippen, and MJ shredded him in the Finals. Next.

There may be more talented swingmen in the NBA today (even that though I'm not sure about -- Dominique Wilkins and Reggie Miller and Mitch Richmond would be 24+ ppg players in today's league), but part of that is because half the damn world grew up idolizing Jordan. No one wants to play as a big man anymore.

Pippen > Drexler kid. Drexler and R. Miller are both 2nd tier stars. Pippen is 1st tier. Pippens 94 Bulls didn't miss a beat when Jordan retired. Got screwed by a bad call in the ECSF to a team that went on to the NBA Finals Game 7. Pippen very well may have led the Bulls to a 4-peat WITHOUT jordan if not for poor officiating.

And the reason there is no more offensive post up bigman is because of rule chances. Post defenders are allowed to push, hold, and do whatever these days. When the offensive post player shows some force back the guy flops and the offensive player is called for a foul. You can't get your bigs in foul trouble or you have noone to protect the rim, so you see them abandon the post up game.

[K Xerxes]

Anyway, it's obviously hakeem in the 90s.

If we're talking peak, it's no question really. I'd go as far as saying he has a top 5 peak of all time, along with Michael, Kareem, Wilt and Shaq (in no particular order). Just my opinion of course.

[Sarcastic]

Anyway, it's obviously hakeem in the 90s.

If we're talking peak, it's no question really. I'd go as far as saying he has a top 5 peak of all time, along with Michael, Kareem, Wilt and Shaq (in no particular order). Just my opinion of course.

Russell, Magic, Bird, and LeBron have all had better peaks than Olajuwon.

[moe94]

]Russell, Magic, Bird[/B], and LeBron have all had better peaks than Olajuwon.

There are TWO sides of basketball. We call them offense and defense.

[Odinn]

Disagree. I don't think Magic was ever in Jordan's area code.
Then you do not know a damn thing years like 1989 or 1990. Idiot.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Lakers probably woulda been champs in 91 if worthy was healthy. I have seen Big Game James **** Pippen up in the post a couple of times before.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Then you do not know a damn thing years like 1989 or 1990. Idiot.
Magic played defense? MJ out Magic'ed the man himself in the '91 Finals. 31 ppg, and 11 apg. While actually playing defense, unlike Magic. That's absurd. How does it feel to get smacked at your own playing style? The Lakers got back door swept. With Worthy all of a sudden they would dominate the series? Right.

[SilkkTheShocker]

LeBron had Kobe :biggums: Maybe more recently, but from 05 to 09 was LeBron #1? no

Edit: Just noticed you took it off

LeBron was better than Kobe all those seasons also. Kobe was arguably never even the best player in the league.

[BlackVVaves]

??? :confusedshrug:

:rolleyes:

[Black and White]

LeBron was better than Kobe all those seasons also. Kobe was arguably never even the best player in the league.

Lol What?

[Soundwave]

Pippen > Drexler kid. Drexler and R. Miller are both 2nd tier stars. Pippen is 1st tier. Pippens 94 Bulls didn't miss a beat when Jordan retired. Got screwed by a bad call in the ECSF to a team that went on to the NBA Finals Game 7. Pippen very well may have led the Bulls to a 4-peat WITHOUT jordan if not for poor officiating.

And the reason there is no more offensive post up bigman is because of rule chances. Post defenders are allowed to push, hold, and do whatever these days. When the offensive post player shows some force back the guy flops and the offensive player is called for a foul. You can't get your bigs in foul trouble or you have noone to protect the rim, so you see them abandon the post up game.

Protip: don't call other people "kid" when you were too young to even watch this era, lol.

Pippen won 1 whopping playoff round without Jordan.

This is Scottie Pippen's shooting percentages from the playoffs btw:

93-94 - 43% FG
94-95 - 44% FG
95-96 - 39% FG
96-97 - 41.7% FG
97-98 - 41.5% FG
98-99 - 32.9% FG w/Olajuwon + Barkley

No.1 option my ass, lol. The Bulls won *one* whopping series without Jordan, Reggie Miller pushed the Knicks to game 7 that same year too, the Knicks were simply a team that would let opponents get back into a series (and it bit them in the ass hard in the Finals). Honestly the Pacers came far closer to beating the Knicks that year than the Bulls did.

Beyond that the only reason there even was a freaking game 7 in that Bulls Knicks series is because Kukoc bailed them out with a miracle 3 pointer while Pippen sat on the bench crying in pretty much the most embarrassing playoff moment you'll ever witness.

When he had Olajuwon and Barkley he got swept in the 1st round.

Kids don't want to be bigs any more. It's not "cool" and you don't get a big fat sneaker deal from being a big unless you're some kind of circus freak like Yao. Everyone tries to emulate Jordan, everyone wants to play the swing positions.

If the Blazers weren't retards, and had taken Jordan instead of Sam Bowie (lol), they'd probably be sitting pretty with 6-8 championships behind a Jordan-Drexler duo, and Scottie Pippen is a never was.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Hakeem lost in the 1st round of the playoffs like 8 or 9 times. I know Houston had shit ownership most of the time he was there, but that is really bad.

[NumberSix]

Hakeem lost in the 1st round of the playoffs like 8 or 9 times. I know Houston had shit ownership most of the time he was there, but that is really bad.
On ISH, that's better than winning 3 rounds and losing the finals.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Lol What?

I don't know why you are surprised. Kobe was never once the consensus best player in the NBA. His best claim to it is in 06 and that is about it. And even I would take 06 LeBron over him, which is probably the most underrated LeBron season of them all.

06- I would probably give it to Wade overall. With Kobe, LeBron, and Dirk behind him.
07- Duncan or Dirk
08- LeBron
09- LeBron
10- LeBron
11- Dirk
12- LeBron
13- LeBron

[Lebron23]

Hakeem Olajuwon

Won back to back NBA titles.

[La Frescobaldi]

Hakeem lost in the 1st round of the playoffs like 8 or 9 times. I know Houston had shit ownership most of the time he was there, but that is really bad.
In theory that is true.

But there were some of those seasons at least, where the only reason the Rox sniffed anything but the couch after the regular season was because H.O. dragged them along behind him.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-R1LN8Tap8hI/TsmSztxtFeI/AAAAAAAAANM/gTiON7jSFmg/s1600/Tori%2527s+Mule+In+Mine+3.jpg

[Sarcastic]

In theory that is true.

But there were some of those seasons at least, where the only reason the Rox sniffed anything but the couch after the regular season was because H.O. dragged them along behind him.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-R1LN8Tap8hI/TsmSztxtFeI/AAAAAAAAANM/gTiON7jSFmg/s1600/Tori%2527s+Mule+In+Mine+3.jpg

The Western Conference back then was shitty the way the East is now.

[SilkkTheShocker]

On ISH, that's better than winning 3 rounds and losing the finals.

Exactly man. This is the only place on the planet where it's better to lose in the first round than take a team to the Finals and lose. Im not a Hakeem hater or anything. But he gets a little overrated. I mean apparently he "destroyed" Shaq in the Finals. Despite the fact Shaq put up impressive numbers himself. People talk about him beating the Knicks in the Finals with nothing but role players. But that's all Ewing had to work with also.

[La Frescobaldi]

The Western Conference back then was shitty the way the East is now.
some of those Rox were at the bottom of that sewage swamp

[Legends66NBA7]

Hilariously underrated. :(

He's overrated and justified rightfully for his failures.

Nobody questions his impressive work ethic and longevity. That stuff is Top 3-5 all-time material in both categories. But that's really what's most people talk about Karl Malone, not really how he was a scorer and rebounder, which I really feel he is overrated in both aspects.

His playoffs and Finals play needs not much mention. He had great series no doubt, but had more significant blunders. His MVP selections are questionable too.

[Odinn]

Magic played defense? MJ out Magic'ed the man himself in the '91 Finals. 31 ppg, and 11 apg. While actually playing defense, unlike Magic. That's absurd. How does it feel to get smacked at your own playing style? The Lakers got back door swept. With Worthy all of a sudden they would dominate the series? Right.
And there comes the Jordan-stans.

Let's not act like Magic didn't play on Jordan's level on before his first retirement.

I love these defense arguments btw. KG > Dirk or DRob > Moses. Because they played defense, right?:facepalm It's just a straight-up eye test. You should be able to evaluate a player's impact on the court without being stick to cliches.

[Legends66NBA7]

While were at this "two way player" thing...

Is Duncan and Garnett better than Magic and Bird too ?

[SilkkTheShocker]

The "two way" player argument is beyond stupid. I would take Dirk over KG without even thinking twice.

[Soundwave]

These are two different eras we're talking about anyway, since guys like Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas were still in their relative prime towards the earlier part of the Bulls run and then you had guys like Shaq/Penny/GHill/Payton/Kemp in the later half.

I would say

Hakeem > Magic > Malone > Shaq > Barkley > DRob > Ewing > Isiah > Drexler > Payton > Reggie > Penny.

[BlackVVaves]

He's overrated and justified rightfully for his failures.

Nobody questions his impressive work ethic and longevity. That stuff is Top 3-5 all-time material in both categories. But that's really what's most people talk about Karl Malone, not really how he was a scorer and rebounder, which I really feel he is overrated in both aspects.

His playoffs and Finals play needs not much mention. He had great series no dout, but had more significant blunders. His MVP selections are questionable too.

200% agree.

[moe94]

The "two way" player argument is beyond stupid. I would take Dirk over KG without even thinking twice.

Because you are a confirmed mouth breathing retard. :confusedshrug:

[Black and White]

The "two way" player argument is beyond stupid. I would take Dirk over KG without even thinking twice.

Thats funny because don't LeBron stans use the same arguement to prop up LeBron?? Because hes a great two way player????

You can't just use it on one guy, it applies to all players and Hakeem was one of the best two way players of all time

[BlackVVaves]

Sidenote:

Is there really not a thread for the Thunder/Bulls game on TNT?

[moe94]

Sidenote:

Is there really not a thread for the Thunder/Bulls game on TNT?
:sleeping

[Legends66NBA7]

Sidenote:

Is there really not a thread for the Thunder/Bulls game on TNT?

Fudge got you covered on that:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=2

[LAZERUSS]

If you include players from the 80's...that's easy. Magic.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Thats funny because don't LeBron stans use the same arguement to prop up LeBron?? Because hes a great two way player????

You can't just use it on one guy, it applies to all players and Hakeem was one of the best two way players of all time

Who is talking about LeBron, son? Try to keep up with the rest of us, Corky

[Black and White]

Who is talking about LeBron, son? Try to keep up with the rest of us, Corky

You just talked about LeBron in this thread propping him above Kobe :facepalm

[moe94]

Who is talking about LeBron, son? Try to keep up with the rest of us, Corky
Is the little baby mad he's being called out on his hypocrisy? :cry:

[Round Mound]

Barkley from 88-93 Was Easily The 2nd Best Player in the League But You Got To Give It To Hakeem for His 2 Titles (as you guys like to rank players) Where He Performed Like a True Legend.

1-MJ
2-Hakeem
3-Barkley

....

[sportjames23]

Take your pick:

Magic
Drexler
Barkley
Hakeem
Shaq
K. Malone


This.

[Stringer Bell]

What years exactly are we considering his era?

1984-2003?

Magic won 3 MVPs and 3 titles during that time period.

The 1990s?

That would be Hakeem.

[guy]

Am I reading it wrong? Are you saying Shaq was injury prone, or are you saying Malone was injury prone?

Malone only missed 10 games in 18 seasons.

Shaq was. Bottom line is, at the end of both 97 and 98, no one was calling Shaq better then Malone. Malone being considered the 2nd best player in the league at the end of each of those seasons was pretty much the consensus the same way Durant being considered 2nd best today is.

[guy]

The problem with that though, is they never played a playoff series like how LeBron and Kobe didn't.

It just seems weird that he would be the #2 player of the era and they never faced off.

I don't really see whats so weird about it. Lebron as the #1 has faced the #2 guy once and that was Durant in 2012. Maybe you can say in 2011 it happened as well depending on how you rank Dirk, Wade, and Lebron, who I would consider the top 3 players that year. But for example, the consensus from 2006-2010 was that Lebron, Kobe, and Wade were the top 3 players in the league (except for Wade for about a year and a half), and they never faced off during that time or ever.

But like I said before, Hakeem overall for that era was probably 2nd best just because of his peak mostly, but he was rarely considered the 2nd best in any given year that Jordan played. Like I said, you can argue Jordan faced the 2nd best player of the year in every Finals except for 96 (and I wouldn't really call it much of an argument in 91, 97, and 98).

[jlip]

Jordan faced all of the greatest rivals from his era, except for Hakeem, who is kinda overrated. Jordan faced and beat Isiah, Magic, Bird, Ewing, Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Payton, Kemp, Shaq.


Jordan faced but never beat Bird in the playoffs. If memory serves me correctly the first time the Bulls ever won a playoff game against the Celtics in franchise history was 2009.

[Alan Ogg]

The answer to your question of who was Jordan's Durant is Karl Malone. Jordan beat him twice in the NBA Finals. Magic was never that guy, he was an equal. Looking at the MVP voting during the Jordan era really helps you visualize.

http://i.imgur.com/utGOBBJ.jpg

[DMAVS41]

At the time...it was probably Malone.

Looking back, I think Hakeem was definitely the 2nd best player of the 90's (Jordan era)

[boojitede]

I don't know why you are surprised. Kobe was never once the consensus best player in the NBA. His best claim to it is in 06 and that is about it. And even I would take 06 LeBron over him, which is probably the most underrated LeBron season of them all.

06- I would probably give it to Wade overall. With Kobe, LeBron, and Dirk behind him.
07- Duncan or Dirk
08- LeBron
09- LeBron
10- LeBron
11- Dirk
12- LeBron
13- LeBron
09 was definitely WADE. he was an absolute gawd that year. bron was great in the playoffs that year though. a machine.

then earlier than 06 i'd take shaq, kg, and duncan all over kobe too.

[branslowski]

Because you are a confirmed mouth breathing retard. :confusedshrug:

You take an odd position of debating everyone regardless of who they are a fan of, I'm impressed. (Even though you a Bron stan, still).

[guy]

The answer to your question of who was Jordan's Durant is Karl Malone. Jordan beat him twice in the NBA Finals. Magic was never that guy, he was an equal. Looking at the MVP voting during the Jordan era really helps you visualize.

http://i.imgur.com/utGOBBJ.jpg

I don't care what MVP voting says. MVP voting would say a lot of things that are completely wrong. Magic was not Jordan's equal. You can argue the difference between them and how maybe it wasn't as large as the difference between LeBron and Durant for example, but he was in no way Jordan's equal, especially when they faced off in 91.

[K Xerxes]

Amazing how people use MVP voting as though it's meaningful. I mean, come on, it doesn't take into account the MOST important part of the season (i.e. playoffs), and there are some players who raised their level in the playoffs and separated themselves from other 'similar' level players in the regular season. Best example of this is in 95 when Robinson was the best player during the regular season before Hakeem proved that notion flat out wrong in the playoffs, on the BIGGEST stage.

[Legends66NBA7]

Amazing how people use MVP voting as though it's meaningful. I mean, come on, it doesn't take into account the MOST important part of the season (i.e. playoffs), and there are some players who raised their level in the playoffs and separated themselves from other 'similar' level players in the regular season. Best example of this is in 95 when Robinson was the best player during the regular season before Hakeem proved that notion flat out wrong in the playoffs, on the BIGGEST stage.

This is true. Not to mention, Karl Malone's consistency in the playoffs has been documented to drop in the playoffs.

He's still Top 3-5 in the "Jordan era", depending who you ask.

[moe94]

Even after his "dip", he's still on the short list of greatest scorers ever and arguably the most consistent scoring PF ever.

25 PPG on 46% shooting career playoff average

Pretty damn good.

[Round Mound]

[B]If its in Jordan

[Stringer Bell]

Amazing how people use MVP voting as though it's meaningful. I mean, come on, it doesn't take into account the MOST important part of the season (i.e. playoffs), and there are some players who raised their level in the playoffs and separated themselves from other 'similar' level players in the regular season. Best example of this is in 95 when Robinson was the best player during the regular season before Hakeem proved that notion flat out wrong in the playoffs, on the BIGGEST stage.

Sometimes the MVP voting seems like the Academy Awards. You may get a "lifetime achievement award". You finish 3rd when you should win MVP and then win MVP when you should be 2nd or 3rd.

[hateraid]

The answer to your question of who was Jordan's Durant is Karl Malone. Jordan beat him twice in the NBA Finals. Magic was never that guy, he was an equal. Looking at the MVP voting during the Jordan era really helps you visualize.



Uh-oh, although I agree whole heartedly, you just struck a nerve or the Jordan brigade :lol

[Alan Ogg]

Amazing how people use MVP voting as though it's meaningful. I mean, come on, it doesn't take into account the MOST important part of the season (i.e. playoffs), and there are some players who raised their level in the playoffs and separated themselves from other 'similar' level players in the regular season. Best example of this is in 95 when Robinson was the best player during the regular season before Hakeem proved that notion flat out wrong in the playoffs, on the BIGGEST stage.

Oh because Magic was a scrub in the playoffs right? 3 MVPs, 3 rings, Finals MVP in the 7 years Magic's career overlapped with Jordan's. Magic was considered the man and then passed the torch to Jordan. Their peaks did not overlap. Jordan went on to become the GOAT, but during the time Magic was in the league, they were equals. Main point being, whoever said Magic was Jordan's Durant is out of their mind.

http://i.imgur.com/F2F4ega.jpg

As far as Karl Malone, OP asked who was Jordan's Durant, well Malone lost to Jordan in the Finals twice and was a top 5 player in the league during the Jordan era.

[Patrick Chewing]

http://thesportsdump.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/karl-malone.jpg



gay ass Rodman

[Stringer Bell]

Jordan, IMO, became the best player in the game from the 87/88 season on.

But it wasn't like Magic wasn't on his level. Jordan was better, but not by much.

Even if you disagree with Magic's MVPs in 89 and 90, look at what he did. 22, 13, and 8 a game during the 88-89 season while shooting 50% from the field. Kareem's effectiveness dropped quite a bit in his last season, the team was becoming a slower paced team than the "Showtime" Lakers so there was such adjustments in style.

During the next season, he led the Lakers to a 63 win season while still putting up great numbers, 21, 11, and 7.

Then in his last full season, he led the Lakers to the finals while putting up his usual great all around numbers with 19, 12, and 7. The year he retired, the Lakers then were barely a .500 team.

You could see that although he was older and a little slower, that he was still so effective. He had his amazing passing skills, ran the offense, and became a real difficult matchup in the post. He had nice spin moves in the post and could of course find the open man.

I don't think those Lakers teams were all that great and it was extremely impressive that Magic was able to lead them to 63 wins in 89/90 and a title appearance in 90/91.

[LAZERUSS]

Jordan, IMO, became the best player in the game from the 87/88 season on.

But it wasn't like Magic wasn't on his level. Jordan was better, but not by much.

Even if you disagree with Magic's MVPs in 89 and 90, look at what he did. 22, 13, and 8 a game during the 88-89 season while shooting 50% from the field. Kareem's effectiveness dropped quite a bit in his last season, the team was becoming a slower paced team than the "Showtime" Lakers so there was such adjustments in style.

During the next season, he led the Lakers to a 63 win season while still putting up great numbers, 21, 11, and 7.

Then in his last full season, he led the Lakers to the finals while putting up his usual great all around numbers with 19, 12, and 7. The year he retired, the Lakers then were barely a .500 team.

You could see that although he was older and a little slower, that he was still so effective. He had his amazing passing skills, ran the offense, and became a real difficult matchup in the post. He had nice spin moves in the post and could of course find the open man.

I don't think those Lakers teams were all that great and it was extremely impressive that Magic was able to lead them to 63 wins in 89/90 and a title appearance in 90/91.

Great post!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Round Mound]

[B]Only Player To Win The MVP in Jordan

[Pointguard]

Its weird because 2nd best player can have several interpretations. If Paul George and a healthy Derrick Rose had several more years under their belt Durant doesn't get the 2nd best status so easy. The runner ups are pretty bad now. Durant, in effect, is similar to Dominique Wilkins in Jordan's time - as a guy that is primarily a super prolific scorer that can't be stopped. But Dominique wouldn't be on par with Magic, Shaq, Barkley, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Malone, Pippen, Bird or prime Grant Hill because having a multidimensional game meant a lot back then.

With that said, the easy pick of Durant isn't a good thing for Lebron's legacy, especially when you consider that he isn't even seen as the leader of his team and is just now adding another dimension to his game.

But to answer the O/P's question you can break it up into different categories as that time period had different guys whose light shined bright in different ways:

Most Impact: Shaq wins this one because from '93 on, he was a one man wrecking crew and unstoppable. Nobody was close. Magic had years ahead of Jordan and was the most impactful until the first retirement.

Best impact/winner: Magic. Then Malone consistently won and went deep into the playoffs and had stellar all around years on Jordan's clock. Hakeem occupied the one spot for two years but was rarely ever number two to Jordan save maybe one year.

Most coveted: Magic. Shaq. Hakeem

Best Player: Magic, Barkley, Hakeem

So it was Magic before it all came together for Jordan and his domination completely wrestled from Magic. And then, depending on what type of star you wanted, could go in different directions.

[Project018]

Its weird because 2nd best player can have several interpretations. If Paul George and a healthy Derrick Rose had several more years under their belt Durant doesn't get the 2nd best status so easy. The runner ups are pretty bad now. Durant, in effect, is similar to Dominique Wilkins in Jordan's time - as a guy that is primarily a super prolific scorer that can't be stopped. But Dominique wouldn't be on par with Magic, Shaq, Barkley, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Malone, Pippen, Bird or prime Grant Hill because having a multidimensional game meant a lot back then.

With that said, the easy pick of Durant isn't a good thing for Lebron's legacy, especially when you consider that he isn't even seen as the leader of his team and is just now adding another dimension to his game.

But to answer the O/P's question you can break it up into different categories as that time period had different guys whose light shined bright in different ways:

Most Impact: Shaq wins this one because from '93 on, he was a one man wrecking crew and unstoppable. Nobody was close. Magic had years ahead of Jordan and was the most impactful until the first retirement.

Best impact/winner: Magic. Then Malone consistently won and went deep into the playoffs and had stellar all around years on Jordan's clock. Hakeem occupied the one spot for two years but was rarely ever number two to Jordan save maybe one year.

Most coveted: Magic. Shaq. Hakeem

Best Player: Magic, Barkley, Hakeem

So it was Magic before it all came together for Jordan and his domination completely wrestled from Magic. And then, depending on what type of star you wanted, could go in different directions.

I agree with everything except comparing Nique to Durant in terms of Jordan Era :biggums:

[moe94]

Its weird because 2nd best player can have several interpretations. If Paul George and a healthy Derrick Rose had several more years under their belt Durant doesn't get the 2nd best status so easy. The runner ups are pretty bad now. Durant, in effect, is similar to Dominique Wilkins in Jordan's time - as a guy that is primarily a super prolific scorer that can't be stopped. But Dominique wouldn't be on par with Magic, Shaq, Barkley, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Malone, Pippen, Bird or prime Grant Hill because having a multidimensional game meant a lot back then.

With that said, the easy pick of Durant isn't a good thing for Lebron's legacy, especially when you consider that he isn't even seen as the leader of his team and is just now adding another dimension to his game.


Talk about having zero respect for Durant...

The Westbrook implication is also quite funny. No one thinks he's the leader.

[Straight_Ballin]

One clear conclusion however is that

Lebron >> Durant

while

Jordan >>>>> 2nd best player of the 90's

[Alan Ogg]

I see the confusion now. If we're talking just about the 2nd best player during the years that Jordan played, then I'm going with

Magic / Hakeem

[miller-time]

I see the confusion now. If we're talking just about the 2nd best player during the years that Jordan played, then I'm going with

Magic / Hakeem

There was also crossover with Bird. But Jordan was still in his early years when Bird was in his prime. Larry had too many injuries in the early 90s unlike Magic.

[Pointguard]

I agree with everything except comparing Nique to Durant in terms of Jordan Era :biggums:
He definitely fits Dominique more than he fits prime Grant Hill, Pippen, Barkley or Bird type at his position. And not one of the other guys at any of the other positions are close to being one dimensional. Who do you have him like? Of all the guys I mentioned for the number two spot, Nique was the highest scorer and was right there with Jordan in about 6 years for the scoring title. Its not an insult to be like Dominique.


The Westbrook implication is also quite funny. No one thinks he's the leader.
I haven't said it here but several other posters have definitely said it. And it is obvious that the team plays much more aggressively when Westbrook plays. And just because you are the best player on the team it doesn't mean you are the leader. They are two separate categories and traits.

[miles berg]

KD will wind up an all-time great, no doubt but is anyone seriously insinuating he's better than these guys in the 90s at their prime or peaks?

'91 Magic
'90 - '95 Drexler
'90 - '97 Hakeem
'90 - '97 Barkley
'90 - '98 Malone
'90 - '97 D. Robinson
'90 - '96 Ewing
'93 - '99 Shaq

Or even better than:

'94 - '98 Penny
'94 - '99 Hill

Uh, yeah. Shaq and Hakeem are the only two on his level.

[Alan Ogg]

Kind of interesting. During Bulls Jordan era. Playoffs games started > 100, PPG > 10.

Basketball Reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=Y&year_min=1985&year_max=1998&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=gs&c1comp=gt&c1val=100&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=10&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws)

[NumberSix]

Kraft dinner. Now that's some good eatin'.

[Ca$H]

It seems true, but it just sounds really weird that Jordan NEVER faced off against the 2nd best player of the era.

It is really weird that the next Jordan is currently teammates with the next Hakeem in Kansas.

[kamil]

Most people think LeBron* is the consensus #2 player to Kobe's #1 of this era.

Fixed.

[fandarko]

Pippen > Drexler kid. Drexler and R. Miller are both 2nd tier stars. Pippen is 1st tier.

No ****ing way Pippen>Drexler. And no ****ing way Reggie is on the same level as Drexler.

[fandarko]

One clear conclusion however is that

Lebron >> Durant

while

Jordan >>>>> 2nd best player of the 90's

Neither is true.

Lebron is better than Durant, but it's not like he's >> better.
The same with Jordan. He was better, but not head and shoulders than Hakeem, Magic, Shaq, etc.

[NumberSix]

Fixed.
Nobody thinks Kobe is the #1 player of any single season let alone an era.

[fandarko]

These are two different eras we're talking about anyway, since guys like Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas were still in their relative prime towards the earlier part of the Bulls run and then you had guys like Shaq/Penny/GHill/Payton/Kemp in the later half.

I would say

Hakeem > Magic > Malone > Shaq > Barkley > DRob > Ewing > Isiah > Drexler > Payton > Reggie > Penny.

It's more like Hakeem, Magic > Malone, Barkley, Shaq, DRob >, Drexler, Ewing, Isiah, Kemp, Penny (though short-lived), Hill > Payton, Reggie

[East_Stone_Ya]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1997/0512_large.jpg

[Stringer Bell]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Only Player To Win The MVP in Jordan

[guy]

Oh because Magic was a scrub in the playoffs right? 3 MVPs, 3 rings, Finals MVP in the 7 years Magic's career overlapped with Jordan's. Magic was considered the man and then passed the torch to Jordan. Their peaks did not overlap. Jordan went on to become the GOAT, but during the time Magic was in the league, they were equals. Main point being, whoever said Magic was Jordan's Durant is out of their mind.

http://i.imgur.com/F2F4ega.jpg

As far as Karl Malone, OP asked who was Jordan's Durant, well Malone lost to Jordan in the Finals twice and was a top 5 player in the league during the Jordan era.

Sooo basically what you're saying is Magic was to Jordan what Kobe is to Lebron? Not necessarily better, but on the same level cause they were revered in the same way, one ascending while the other was maintaining or declining? I'd agree with that.

[Sarcastic]

1 Magic
2 Bird
<gap>
3 Hakeem
4 Barkley
5 Malone

[K Xerxes]

Oh because Magic was a scrub in the playoffs right? 3 MVPs, 3 rings, Finals MVP in the 7 years Magic's career overlapped with Jordan's. Magic was considered the man and then passed the torch to Jordan. Their peaks did not overlap. Jordan went on to become the GOAT, but during the time Magic was in the league, they were equals. Main point being, whoever said Magic was Jordan's Durant is out of their mind.

Who on earth said that Magic is a scrub in the playoffs?

They weren't equals in the late 80s, sorry. Magic might have been MJ's equal offensively, but it wasn't a question defensively, particularly as MJ was arguably the best perimeter defender in the league at that point.

Magic had a better team record and got further into the playoffs more consistently primarily because of his team (can you name me MJ's second and third options at the time without looking it up?). However, in terms of individual ability, MJ took over Magic as the best from about 88. We're talking about a guy who could average 40 in a series if he wanted and lock you down as a defender.

[Pointguard]

Magic was considered the better team player and was the best winner in the late 80's. Magic had ran the best offense ever in '87. Jordan was the best individual player from about '88 like you said. A difference not easily reconciled. Jordan says rings count heavily in the equation himself. And Magic had won his rings in the toughest era.

Lebron was the games most complete player in the modern era in '09 but he wasn't crowned until he won. Jordan came on the heels of two great team players. In 1990 he could be said to be a team player but he didn't deserve the one spot until the second ring.

And two guys above have Hakeem ahead of Magic, wow.

[SamuraiSWISH]

However, in terms of individual ability, MJ took over Magic as the best from about 88. We're talking about a guy who could average 40 in a series if he wanted and lock you down as a defender.
That's a BINGO.

Mean while, Sleepy Floyd put up 51 points, 10 assists, and a 29 point quarter on Magic Johnson.

Repped.

[Round Mound]

I wouldn't say Jordan was better overall during the 3 peat than the previous 2 seasons when Magic won.

His teammates were just better.

[B]Jordan was Better 88-93 Than Any Other Jordan Version. He Had The Best Mix Of Athleticism and Skills. Prior To Those Years He Was More Athletic But Not As Skilled and Beyond That, He Wasn

[Legends66NBA7]

[QUOTE=Round Mound] Barkley Is The Only Player To Be MVP in Jordan

[K Xerxes]

No, Magic won too.

How is 89-90 Jordan NOT included as is peak ? He was absurd that year and arguably was on his way to have his greatest playoff run, infact some would argue it is.

Yeah, I mean, the argument could be made that 90 was his peak season in terms of individual ability as a player. Even better than in his championship years.

[Stringer Bell]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Jordan was Better 88-93 Than Any Other Jordan Version. He Had The Best Mix Of Athleticism and Skills. Prior To Those Years He Was More Athletic But Not As Skilled and Beyond That, He Wasn

[Round Mound]

No, Magic won too.

How is 89-90 Jordan NOT included as is peak ? He was absurd that year and arguably was on his way to have his greatest playoff run, infact some would argue it is.

Magic had Better Teamates than Jordan and Barkley and Hakeem for Those Years. Jordan Had Pippen and Grant in 89-90 and That Was The Year Barkley Was 2nd In MVP Voting To Magic and Was Robbed From The MVP Cause 2 Voters Did Not Put Him In The Top 10. Barkley Took Nobodies To 53 Wins.

Barkley Was Easily The 2nd Best Player in the Game From 88-93, After That It Was Hakeem.

[Legends66NBA7]

Yeah, I mean, the argument could be made that 90 was his peak season in terms of individual ability as a player. Even better than in his championship years.

I would include 88-89 season, as well.

Those 2 years his teammates weren't as good in the playoffs compared to the Pistons, but he still played at an incredible level in the playoffs. I have no doubt if his teammates are better and the Bulls win titles, we would be talking about which 5 year playoff stretch was his greatest, which is even more impressive than it already is.

[Pointguard]

Magic had Better Teamates than Jordan and Barkley and Hakeem for Those Years. Jordan Had Pippen and Grant in 89-90 and That Was The Year Barkley Was 2nd In MVP Voting To Magic and Was Robbed From The MVP Cause 2 Voters Did Not Put Him In The Top 10. Barkley Took Nobodies To 53 Wins.

Barkley Was Easily The 2nd Best Player in the Game From 88-93, After That It Was Hakeem.

Magic was an incredible winner who made the players around him better. Kareem was talking about quitting in 1979 and stayed because of Magic and should not have been playing in '89. He was that productive in '89 at all. Worthy and Scott weren't good players after Magic retired. Their shooting percentages dipped in a big way And they are the guys you are saying made those teams better than Philly and Chicago. The team was like four games over .500 after Magic left.

Barkley was no where near Magic's level as a player, team player, winner or impact player. Magic was making everybody around him better players. If Magic is on that Philly team they contend. They were deep and had pieces. Barkley makes the players around him watch. Both Pippen and Jordan made references to that about Barkley. Sorry you should stick to '91 and '92 and call it a day.

[Smoke117]

Its weird because 2nd best player can have several interpretations. If Paul George and a healthy Derrick Rose had several more years under their belt Durant doesn't get the 2nd best status so easy. The runner ups are pretty bad now. Durant, in effect, is similar to Dominique Wilkins in Jordan's time - as a guy that is primarily a super prolific scorer that can't be stopped. But Dominique wouldn't be on par with Magic, Shaq, Barkley, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Malone, Pippen, Bird or prime Grant Hill because having a multidimensional game meant a lot back then.

With that said, the easy pick of Durant isn't a good thing for Lebron's legacy, especially when you consider that he isn't even seen as the leader of his team and is just now adding another dimension to his game.

But to answer the O/P's question you can break it up into different categories as that time period had different guys whose light shined bright in different ways:

Most Impact: Shaq wins this one because from '93 on, he was a one man wrecking crew and unstoppable. Nobody was close. Magic had years ahead of Jordan and was the most impactful until the first retirement.

Best impact/winner: Magic. Then Malone consistently won and went deep into the playoffs and had stellar all around years on Jordan's clock. Hakeem occupied the one spot for two years but was rarely ever number two to Jordan save maybe one year.

Most coveted: Magic. Shaq. Hakeem

Best Player: Magic, Barkley, Hakeem

So it was Magic before it all came together for Jordan and his domination completely wrestled from Magic. And then, depending on what type of star you wanted, could go in different directions.

I don't agree with that at all. There is a reason that during those years Shaq wasn't seen the way he was when the Lakers were winning championships and that's because of defense. Olajuwon and Robinson are the greatest defensive players the league has seen in the last 40 years. Shaq was always a lazy slob. What kind of player averages their career highs in RPG and BPG their rookie season? A lazy **** like shaq. He has always cared about scoring more than anything else and frankly sas even alluded to that fact himself. The two players that had the greatest impact during "the jordan years" were Olajuwon and Robinson. There were was no other two players who could carry a team offensively and defensively for an entire season besides those 2.

[magnax1]

Hakeem from like 92-96. You could argue Barkley in 93 I guess. 98 is probably Shaq. 97 Im not to certain. Malone? 89-91 is Barkley IMO. Most people would say Magic I'd guess though.
So overall It's Hakeem and Barkley.

[crisoner]

Magic's prime was a different era from Jordan's.

Kind of like Bryant and LeBron...pretty much the torch has been passed.
Magic and Bird ran things before Jordan became ...well Jordan.


Any how....second best player in the Jordan's 90's......
Got to be Hakeem. He was unstoppable in the post and was an elite shot blocker.

[crisoner]

Reading the posts I think some of you kids commenting don't understand that before Jordan won a title....he was seen as a chucker who puts up points...slams the ball...and was all show. Magic and Bird plus the Pistons ran the NBA.

Know your history.

[moe94]

Reading the posts I think some of you kids commenting don't understand that before Jordan won a title....he was seen as a chucker who puts up points...slams the ball...and was all show. Magic and Bird plus the Pistons ran the NBA.

Know your history.

Even in the 80s, Jordan was clearly the best player in the league.

[Legends66NBA7]

Even in the 80s, Jordan was clearly the best player in the league.

Clearly ? No, I don't think that would have been the saying back then.

He might have been the best player by the end of the 80's, sure, but clearly in it's entirety.. he was not.

[moe94]

Individually, I'd say he was.

89 Jordan is better than any version of Bird or Magic.

[kNicKz]

Stat and game wise probably Hakeem but when I reflect on that era the #2 man that appears in my mind is always Barkley

[Legends66NBA7]

Stat and game wise probably Hakeem but when I reflect on that era the #2 man that appears in my mind is always Barkley

Personality and controversy wise too. He could draw a lot of attention to himself because of his mouth (and backing it up for the most part).

[kNicKz]

Personality and controversy wise too. He could draw a lot of attention to himself because of his mouth (and backing it up for the most part).

Yeah, I just remember him being the guy right below Mike. No one really felt that way about Hakeem. Hakeem was actually hella slept on now that I think about it lol. Plenty of noobs who watch an 8 minute highlight reel on youtube overrate the hell out of him today to balance that out though

[Legends66NBA7]

Yeah, I just remember him being the guy right below Mike. No one really felt that way about Hakeem

I agree. I think the reason why most would feel the same way, IMO:

1) Hakeem converted to Islam, became more of a peaceful person and didn't become very controversial. When you don't do that, your name isn't in the media too much.

2) I don't believe the Rockets had much national tv exposure, or not looked as that "sexy" team anymore when Ralph Sampson started to become injury prone.

3) Probably over shadowed by popularity from other great centers of his era. I see Shaq clearly being that guy everyone would be looking at as the next big thing, regardless what happened in the 95 Finals. I even see Ewing being more marketed since he played in New York for his entire prime. David Robinson too, since his peak is great too, especially coming out of college.

Same way I regard Barkley in comparison to Hakeem. Not saying they were better, but I can definitely draw some reasoning as to why the way of thinking back then.

[moe94]

Yeah, I just remember him being the guy right below Mike. No one really felt that way about Hakeem. Hakeem was actually hella slept on now that I think about it lol. Plenty of noobs who watch an 8 minute highlight reel on youtube overrate the hell out of him today to balance that out though

Another Knicks fan with a terrible opinion of Dream. What else is new? :rolleyes:

[Round Mound]

Magic was an incredible winner who made the players around him better. Kareem was talking about quitting in 1979 and stayed because of Magic and should not have been playing in '89. He was that productive in '89 at all. Worthy and Scott weren't good players after Magic retired. Their shooting percentages dipped in a big way And they are the guys you are saying made those teams better than Philly and Chicago. The team was like four games over .500 after Magic left.

Barkley was no where near Magic's level as a player, team player, winner or impact player. Magic was making everybody around him better players. If Magic is on that Philly team they contend. They were deep and had pieces. Barkley makes the players around him watch. Both Pippen and Jordan made references to that about Barkley. Sorry you should stick to '91 and '92 and call it a day.

:no: Give PRIME & Healthy Barkley... Worthy, Divac, Scott and Green and They Win Championships In The 90s. Give Barkley Kareem, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Scott and Green And Barkley Would Be Considered The Greatest Player Ever.

[moe94]

How come Round Mound is the most likable stan on this site and it's not even remotely close?

[kshutts1]

Protip: don't call other people "kid" when you were too young to even watch this era, lol.

Pippen won 1 whopping playoff round without Jordan.

This is Scottie Pippen's shooting percentages from the playoffs btw:

93-94 - 43% FG
94-95 - 44% FG
95-96 - 39% FG
96-97 - 41.7% FG
97-98 - 41.5% FG
98-99 - 32.9% FG w/Olajuwon + Barkley

No.1 option my ass, lol. The Bulls won *one* whopping series without Jordan, Reggie Miller pushed the Knicks to game 7 that same year too, the Knicks were simply a team that would let opponents get back into a series (and it bit them in the ass hard in the Finals). Honestly the Pacers came far closer to beating the Knicks that year than the Bulls did.

Beyond that the only reason there even was a freaking game 7 in that Bulls Knicks series is because Kukoc bailed them out with a miracle 3 pointer while Pippen sat on the bench crying in pretty much the most embarrassing playoff moment you'll ever witness.

When he had Olajuwon and Barkley he got swept in the 1st round.

Kids don't want to be bigs any more. It's not "cool" and you don't get a big fat sneaker deal from being a big unless you're some kind of circus freak like Yao. Everyone tries to emulate Jordan, everyone wants to play the swing positions.

If the Blazers weren't retards, and had taken Jordan instead of Sam Bowie (lol), they'd probably be sitting pretty with 6-8 championships behind a Jordan-Drexler duo, and Scottie Pippen is a never was.
Just wanna bring this up.

You didn't "cherry pick" Scottie's shooting stats, as his "bad" years outweigh his "good". But he had four very good years prior to the ones you mentioned, shooting (rounding) 50, 50, 47, 47, on no less than 14 shots per game.

That being said.... He was more than a scorer. I'll be the first Pippen fan to admit that he had a ways to grow as a go-to scorer (though I believe he would have gotten there) but look at his "other" stat during your quoted years.. 9r, 5a, 2s, 1b, 2.7(?)turns. That's some awesome production. And, keep in mind, he almost always guarded the other team's most important non-post player, and did so at an historical level.

Anyway, my two picks for best player after Jordan are Barkley and Hakeem, with Pippen and Malone getting an honorable mention.

[Lebron23]

Hakeem

Isiah Thomas won an NBA Championship in the 1980's. 1991 to 1998 was the Jordan era.

[Pointguard]

I don't agree with that at all. There is a reason that during those years Shaq wasn't seen the way he was when the Lakers were winning championships and that's because of defense. Olajuwon and Robinson are the greatest defensive players the league has seen in the last 40 years. Shaq was always a lazy slob. What kind of player averages their career highs in RPG and BPG their rookie season? A lazy **** like shaq. He has always cared about scoring more than anything else and frankly sas even alluded to that fact himself. The two players that had the greatest impact during "the jordan years" were Olajuwon and Robinson. There were was no other two players who could carry a team offensively and defensively for an entire season besides those 2.
Shaq never blocked under 2 per game always was around 12 rebounds (or equal to Rob and Hakeem), rarely missed and commanded waaaay more attention than Hakeem and Robinson, and I'm sure he had more wins during that time. Shaq was a better offensive rebounder than either, Shaq got lazy later on. Offensively he sucked up all the attention on the floor unlike any player ever. His defense wasn't bad at all, sobeit, not their level, but his presence was bigger overall in the game because the offensive chaos he caused was crazy. Shaq had energy and bounce in his first seven years.

[Pointguard]

:no: Give PRIME & Healthy Barkley... Worthy, Divac, Scott and Green and They Win Championships In The 90s. Give Barkley Kareem, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Scott and Green And Barkley Would Be Considered The Greatest Player Ever.
Hakeem was much better than Kareem those years. Pippen way better than Worthy in the very late 90's.

Giminski much better than McAdoo, and Hawkins much better than Scott, and Gilliam better than Green in the years in question. Its not even close in any of those examples.

[DMAVS41]

I don't follow the stuff about the 80's. That wasn't the Jordan era.

The 80's was Magic led Lakers, Bird led Celtics, and the Bad Boy Pistons really. There were other things going on, but in terms of the era...it was the Magic/Bird era.

The Jordan era was the 90's...like 91-98 really.

The best players during that time were Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, and Shaq. I might be forgetting someone, but those were the guys.

I think Hakeem was the best (thought so at the time) and then it gets hard for me. Probably lean towards Barkley next, but it's tough.

[Round Mound]

Hakeem was much better than Kareem those years. Pippen way better than Worthy in the very late 90's.

Giminski much better than McAdoo, and Hawkins much better than Scott, and Gilliam better than Green in the years in question. Its not even close in any of those examples.

You Expect Me To Believe this Crap? :oldlol:

[Stringer Bell]

Reading the posts I think some of you kids commenting don't understand that before Jordan won a title....he was seen as a chucker who puts up points...slams the ball...and was all show. Magic and Bird plus the Pistons ran the NBA.

Know your history.

Some people may have thought that, and Jordan probably used that as motivation, but those opinions ceased for the most part by around 88' or so. His playoff run in 89' was spectacular and pretty much everyone blamed his teammates for the Bulls not getting the Pistons.

[Cali Syndicate]

It seems true, but it just sounds really weird that Jordan NEVER faced off against the 2nd best player of the era.

Faced magic in 91(runner up MVP and back to back MVP of in 89 and 90), drexler in 92 (runner up MVP) and Barkley in 93 (MVP). And reason there was no clear cut 2nd best player in the 90s is cause there were a lot of great superstars.

[Cali Syndicate]

Reading the posts I think some of you kids commenting don't understand that before Jordan won a title....he was seen as a chucker who puts up points..and was alregardingBird plus the Pistons ran the NBA.

Know your history.

When did Jordan become "jordan?" Cause in 88 he was MVP and dpoy. 87 recorded a 35 ppg 200 steals and 100 block season. In 86 Larry legend called mj God in disguise. Imagine kobe calling lebron god in his second season in the league.