DR J says kareem > your favorite player all time

[Kyle_korver]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ3nJ7ZfiF8

why is no one discussing this??:confusedshrug:

[Psileas]

It's Kareem being popular as usual...
Glad to see someone retain his opinion, btw, despite what the media want to promote. He has been maintaining that Kareem is the GOAT for decades now.

[inclinerator]

probably cuz he lost so badly against him 1 on 1

[Scholar]

I think the only reason Kareem isn't considered GOAT is because he wasn't as exciting to watch as a guy like Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson, but when it really comes down to it, Kareem has proven he's the GOAT. I mean, dude had incredible longevity, elite level scoring ability, nice defense, individual accolades that not many people can surpass, etc.
I don't argue when someone says Kareem is the greatest because dude has every right to be considered the GOAT.

[inclinerator]

I think the only reason Kareem isn't considered GOAT is because he wasn't as exciting to watch as a guy like Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson, but when it really comes down to it, Kareem has proven he's the GOAT. I mean, dude had incredible longevity, elite level scoring ability, nice defense, individual accolades that not many people can surpass, etc.
I don't argue when someone says Kareem is the greatest because dude has every right to be considered the GOAT.
he doesnt have enuff finals mvp

[Odinn]

he doesnt have enuff finals mvp
Then, Bill Russell is your G.O.A.T.? I mean the award is named after him, after all. It is more impressive than having 5 or 6, don't you think?

[Round Mound]

I Have Him In My Top 3

[The Iron Fist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ3nJ7ZfiF8

why is no one discussing this??:confusedshrug:


Because there is nothing to discuss. Anyone who knows basketball history knows he dominated at all levels.

Kareem = GOAT

[iTare]

He's number two for me. I feel that the way Michael Jordan dominated a whole decade while being the face of the NBA is what makes him the GOAT.

[LAZERUSS]

Because there is nothing to discuss. Anyone who knows basketball history knows he dominated at all levels.

Kareem = GOAT

Hmmmm...what does that make Moses ("the Kareem Killer") Malone, then?

In any case, I have KAJ at #5,... and yes, he has an argument for #1.

[inclinerator]

Then, Bill Russell is your G.O.A.T.? I mean the award is named after him, after all. It is more impressive than having 5 or 6, don't you think?
i have him in my top 3, but ppl will say he played in a era where it was easier to win titles

[La Frescobaldi]

I Have Him In My Top 3

me too. Chamberlain, Jabbar, and Jordan stand alone in a little circle. Greatest players I've ever seen.

Everybody else is............ everybody else.

[plowking]

How can you put him above someone like Wilt who was clearly better than him? He outplayed him, put up better stats, and their eras crossed, etc.

[La Frescobaldi]

Hmmmm...what does that make Moses ("the Kareem Killer") Malone, then?

In any case, I have KAJ at #5,... and yes, he has an argument for #1.

Malone is vastly underrated. People fly into a frenzy when his name gets brought up, for example, as better than Olajuwon. They base their view on myths. Ish puppies never saw the man play.

[La Frescobaldi]

How can you put him above someone like Wilt who was clearly better than him? He outplayed him, put up better stats, and their eras crossed, etc.
players inevitably rank the guy they played against as the greatest. Bob McAdoo ranks Chamberlain at #1 and played against both.

[Round Mound]

[B]A Healthy Prime Barkley Is Probably The Most Underrated Out of the Greats. Most People Saw The Rocket

[plowking]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]A Healthy Prime Barkley Is Probably The Most Underrated Out of the Greats. Most People Saw The Rocket

[Sakkreth]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]A Healthy Prime Barkley Is Probably The Most Underrated Out of the Greats. Most People Saw The Rocket

[jlip]

It's Kareem being popular as usual...
Glad to see someone retain his opinion, btw, despite what the media want to promote. He has been maintaining that Kareem is the GOAT for decades now.

This

Here's a video from 2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8bIDEtpOMs) with him saying the same thing.

[La Frescobaldi]

This

Here's a video from 2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8bIDEtpOMs) with him saying the same thing.

remember too, the Doc played against Kareem in the '70s, when Jabbar was doing things that were just beyond....

[gts]

I've always had Kareem as the GOAT basketball player... The man literally dominated the game for close to 30 years

[plowking]

I've always had Kareem as the GOAT basketball player... The man literally dominated the game for close to 30 years

Why would we use high school and college to judge a basketball player? Why not go all the way down to little league, etc? :oldlol:

Its what you do as a pro that counts.

[The Iron Fist]

Why would we use high school and college to judge a basketball player? Why not go all the way down to little league, etc? :oldlol:

Its what you do as a pro that counts.
How do you get to the pros? From streetball games?

From what I see, college basketball is a pretty big deal. High school basketball is no slouch either. Obviously they get less attention, but to to dismiss these levels as though they don't exist is foolish. In college and high school, Kareems teams lost less than 5 games. 4 to be exact. That is pretty damn incredible.

[gts]

Why would we use high school and college to judge a basketball player? Why not go all the way down to little league, etc? :oldlol:

Its what you do as a pro that counts.


Why the hell wouldn't you recognize one of the single most dominant amateur athletic careers ever witnessed.. We recognize Jordan and Magic and Bird's college careers. To ignore them when discussing the world's best basketball player ever is absolutely asinine.

[jlip]

I forgot who said it on here, but Kareem may be the only the player who has case for being the GOAT at each level of organized basketball (high school, college, and NBA.)

[SHAQisGOAT]

Definitely top 3.

Greatest case for GOAT outside of MJ, imho.

Elite scorer
Great rebounder
Great defensive player
Pretty good passer
Great athlete
Top notch intangibles
Top 5 peak
Terrific longevity
Awards, accolades and records in bunches
Amazing impact


I think the only reason Kareem isn't considered GOAT is because he wasn't as exciting to watch as a guy like Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson, but when it really comes down to it, Kareem has proven he's the GOAT. I mean, dude had incredible longevity, elite level scoring ability, nice defense, individual accolades that not many people can surpass, etc.
I don't argue when someone says Kareem is the greatest because dude has every right to be considered the GOAT.

Nice defense? He would've walked way with like 3 DPOY's had there been the award.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I forgot who said it on here, but Kareem may be the only the player who has case for being the GOAT at each level of organized basketball (high school, college, and NBA.)

Yes

[plowking]

Why the hell wouldn't you recognize one of the single most dominant amateur athletic careers ever witnessed.. We recognize Jordan and Magic and Bird's college careers. To ignore them when discussing the world's best basketball player ever is absolutely asinine.

Really? We do?
Its talked about, and looked upon fondly, but never have I seen anyone bring up Magic's or Bird's college career when talking about their GOAT status, or who the better player is between them. Or Jordan's for that matter.
Its never come down to the point where that was a major factor, or a factor at all.

The only time I've ever seen it talked about is with Kareem, and its always Laker fans like yourself who try to muster up some kind of argument as to why he is somehow a better player than Jordan (he isn't btw). :oldlol:

If you're going to count that far back, lets go all the way to the age of 5. How about when they first played a little league game. Its stupid.

There have been plenty of great amateur boxers who don't transition well in the pros, and no one cares, since it didn't transition well. This is a sport where amateur careers matter far more than basketball.
Its what you do as a pro. Its always been that way, and always will be that way. You can talk about all of that other stuff, and look back on it, but at the end of the day, its the pros that count.

No one gives a shit how well you did at high school or university if you haven't got a decent job because of it.

[plowking]

Nice defense? He would've walked way with like 3 DPOY's had there been the award.

Really?
Defense was always KAJ talking point, especially when it came to effort. Much like Shaq.

Wilt was a better scorer, rebounder and defender than Wilt. Probably as highly recruited and touted coming out of college, and more dominant all round.

[BlackVVaves]

I agree, except in regards to Jordan.

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
--

[Legends66NBA7]

Really? We do?
Its talked about, and looked upon fondly, but never have I seen anyone bring up Magic's or Bird's college career when talking about their GOAT status, or who the better player is between them. Or Jordan's for that matter.
Its never come down to the point where that was a major factor, or a factor at all.

I see it all the time.

Whether someone brings it up as a major argument or not is up to who wants to accept it.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Definitely top 3.

Greatest case for GOAT outside of MJ, imho.

Elite scorer
Great rebounder
Great defensive player
Pretty good passer
Great athlete
Top notch intangibles
Top 5 peak
Terrific longevity
Awards, accolades and records in bunches
Amazing impact



Nice defense? He would've walked way with like 3 DPOY's had there been the award.
Top notch intangibles?:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:
nikka u ripped intangibles Kareem biggest weakness:biggums:

[Legends66NBA7]

How would anyone define Kareem's intangibles ?

Was he a good screen setter ? Ran the floor well ? Calling out picks on defense ?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Really?
Defense was always KAJ talking point, especially when it came to effort. Much like Shaq.

Wilt was a better scorer, rebounder and defender than Wilt. Probably as highly recruited and touted coming out of college, and more dominant all round.

Not gonna turn this into a Kareem vs 'insert name' debate but again, he would've walked away with like 3 DPOY's had there been the award already.

5x all-defensive 1st team (and 6x 2nd)
2x leader in DWS; 7x top5
4x top5 in DRtg
Leader in bpg 4 times, 9x top3
Great defensive impact on the team even with weak teammates defensively

Go "analyze" the 1979-80, 1978-79, 1975-76 and 1973-74 seasons, at least, and tell me he wouldn't win like 3 DPOY's in his career.

Read articles like these:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1123312/index.htm

What you said it's true though (pn the other hand, not to Shaq's degree, and I'm a big Shaq fan), sometimes or some seasons he didn't really put the effort on D but plenty of times throughout his career he did and when that happened he had just great impact.

Many times KAJ gets underrated defensively and people should take into account that he would've won, more than once, the DPOY if the award was already there for the taken... That would've given him a better case in many lists (same goes for Russell or Wilt and few more, FMVP's before 1969 also).

[LAZERUSS]

A prime KAJ, which came very early in his career, and from '70-71 thru 73-74, was the anchor of defenses that ranked first in FG% against every season, and either 2nd or 3rd in every one of those four seasons, in ppg allowed. And those FG% against numbers were runaways in a couple of those years.

[Psileas]

I forgot who said it on here, but Kareem may be the only the player who has case for being the GOAT at each level of organized basketball (high school, college, and NBA.)

I know I did.
It's true.

[Psileas]

Really? We do?
Its talked about, and looked upon fondly, but never have I seen anyone bring up Magic's or Bird's college career when talking about their GOAT status, or who the better player is between them. Or Jordan's for that matter.
Its never come down to the point where that was a major factor, or a factor at all.

The only time I've ever seen it talked about is with Kareem, and its always Laker fans like yourself who try to muster up some kind of argument as to why he is somehow a better player than Jordan (he isn't btw).

It's because most discussions involve only the NBA GOAT and some commit the mistake of extrapolating that it's the same with "basketball GOAT". If you want to talk "basketball GOAT", you have to take all serious competition into account and while HS and NCAA aren't quite the NBA, they still contain many, if not most, of the world's best players at certain age ranges, so they have to account for something. Especially the NCAA, where the game is played by adults and it determines to a great degree the NBA Draft selection of a player.
Of course Jordan fans don't bring up NCAA and H.S. They know it hurts Jordan's case for "basketball" GOAT and many of them like to pretend they don't count. Kareem was probably the NCAA GOAT, Bill Russell was probably top-5 and their NBA careers by themselves rival Jordan's, so they have to get at least some attention by the ones who don't see Jordan and automatically draw in their minds the "GOAT" acronym.

[LAZERUSS]

It's because most discussions involve only the NBA GOAT and some commit the mistake of extrapolating that it's the same with "basketball GOAT". If you want to talk "basketball GOAT", you have to take all serious competition into account and while HS and NCAA aren't quite the NBA, they still contain many, if not most, of the world's best players at certain age ranges, so they have to account for something. Especially the NCAA, where the game is played by adults and it determines to a great degree the NBA Draft selection of a player.
Of course Jordan fans don't bring up NCAA and H.S. They know it hurts Jordan's case for "basketball" GOAT and many of them like to pretend they don't count. Kareem was probably the NCAA GOAT, Bill Russell was probably top-5 and their NBA careers by themselves rival Jordan's, so they have to get at least some attention by the ones who don't see Jordan and automatically draw in their minds the "GOAT" acronym.

Kareem (Alcindor) was hands down, the greatest college player of all-time. His team's not only won three straight NC's, they went 88-2 in the process. And those two losses were by margins of 71-69, and 46-44. And that 71-69 loss, against Elvin Hayes and the Houston Cougars in the Astrodome, vaulted the Cougars to #1 in the polls. The two teams would meet again in the NCAA Semi's, and UCLA annihilated the 31-0 Cougars, 101-69, in a game that was not as close as the Final score might indicate.

Furthermore, think about this. Freshmen were not allowed to play varsity basketball back then. And in Alcindor's freshmen year, he and his fellow freshmen team played the UCLA varsity in an early season scrimmage. That varsity team was coming off of two straight NC's, and was ranked #1 in the country. Alcindor's team whipped them. The next year UCLA started four sophs, went 30-0, and won a dominating NC. In his three varsity years, the Bruins were winning their games by an average margin of 25+ ppg. In any case, I don't think there is a shadow of a doubt, that had freshmen been allowed to play, that Alcindor would have won four straight NC's (and probably four straight Tourney MVPs.)

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem (Alcindor) was hands down, the greatest college player of all-time. His team's not only won three straight NC's, they went 88-2 in the process. And those two losses were by margins of 71-69, and 46-44. And that 71-69 loss, against Elvin Hayes and the Houston Cougars in the Astrodome, vaulted the Cougars to #1 in the polls. The two teams would meet again in the NCAA Semi's, and UCLA annihilated the 31-0 Cougars, 101-69, in a game that was not as close as the Final score might indicate.

Furthermore, think about this. Freshmen were not allowed to play varsity basketball back then. And in Alcindor's freshmen year, he and his fellow freshmen team played the UCLA varsity in an early season scrimmage. That varsity team was coming off of two straight NC's, and was ranked #1 in the country. Alcindor's team whipped them. The next year UCLA started four sophs, went 30-0, and won a dominating NC. In his three varsity years, the Bruins were winning their games by an average margin of 25+ ppg. In any case, I don't think there is a shadow of a doubt, that had freshmen been allowed to play, that Alcindor would have won four straight NC's (and probably four straight Tourney MVPs.)


To add, Kareem was dealing with an eye injury, scratched cornea or something like that.

[Psileas]

To add, Kareem was dealing with an eye injury, scratched cornea or something like that.

Yes, Kareem wasn't quite himself that game. Hayes outplayed him by far the most badly anyone ever outplayed him at college and maybe ever (39+15 vs only 15+12).

[pauk]

As far as picking one guy to start the franchise with i agree with Dr J.... i mean 20 years of Kareem, yes thanks...

[LAZERUSS]

Yes, Kareem wasn't quite himself that game. Hayes outplayed him by far the most badly anyone ever outplayed him at college and maybe ever (39+15 vs only 15+12).

I believe Alcindor only shot 4-18 from the field in that Astrodome game, as well. It was one of only two games, in the 90 college games he played, in which he failed to shoot 50%.

The two would meet again in the NCAA Semis later, and the Big E scored 10 points, on 3-10 shooting, with 5 rebounds. Alcindor scored 19, on 7-14 shooting, with 18 rebounds. And, as mentioned before, the Bruins just destroyed the then #1 (and unbeaten) Cougars, 101-69. In fact, mid-way thru the second half, UCLA led by as many as 44 points. I doubt that there has ever been a bigger shellacking ever put on by a #2 team against a #1 team, in NCAA history.

[BoutPractice]

It's not a stretch to say that the NBA GOAT is the basketball GOAT since it's the highest possible level of competition.

College basketball rewards players who developed early and/or had skills that worked well against a pool of mostly amateur/lower league level basketball players aged 18 to 22. It's fascinating to watch but I'm not sure it should factor into GOAT debates.

[gts]

It's not a stretch to say that the NBA GOAT is the basketball GOAT since it's the highest possible level of competition.

College basketball rewards players who developed early and/or had skills that worked well against a pool of mostly amateur/lower league level basketball players aged 18 to 22. It's fascinating to watch but I'm not sure it should factor into GOAT debates.
It does when the domination is that overwhelming. We're not talking about a couple final four berths, we're talking about the complete annihilation of the best the NCAA had to offer for 3 years straight then a jump to the pros without missing a beat.

Don't forget we're not talking about beating patchwork teams made up of one and done players like the NCAA has now. Players had to stay in college we're discussing 2 to 4 year players and some of the best college teams ever assembled.

[LAZERUSS]

It's not a stretch to say that the NBA GOAT is the basketball GOAT since it's the highest possible level of competition.

College basketball rewards players who developed early and/or had skills that worked well against a pool of mostly amateur/lower league level basketball players aged 18 to 22. It's fascinating to watch but I'm not sure it should factor into GOAT debates.

Still, KAJ played four years at UCLA. In his rookie NBA season, he averaged 29 ppg, and then averaged 35 ppg on .567 in the playoffs. He was already the best player in college in his soph season (and likely would have been in his freshman year, as well.)

So, add another 3-4 NBA seasons to Kareem's NBA resume, and just what kind of numbers would have he put up?


Same with Chamberlain. The College POY was slaughtered by a High School Chamberlain in a one-on-one battle, and because of it, he decided to quit basketball. And Wilt didn't even hang around for his senior season. Instead he played with the Globetrotters for a year. In his very first NBA game, Wilt poured in 43 points, on 17-27 shooting, with 28 rebounds, and an estimated 17 blocks. He would go on to not only win the ROY, but the MVP award that year.

[Psileas]

I believe Alcindor only shot 4-18 from the field in that Astrodome game, as well. It was one of only two games, in the 90 college games he played, in which he failed to shoot 50%.

That's interesting. Is this some individual factoid taken from somewhere like Elias Sports Bureau?
Do Alcindor's game logs exist online?

[LAZERUSS]

That's interesting. Is this some individual factoid taken from somewhere like Elias Sports Bureau?
Do Alcindor's game logs exist online?

I don't think this is accurate, but I will have to take some time when I get a chance and do more research...

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/bio/_/id/4145/kareem-abdul-jabbar


As a junior, Alcindor and UCLA squared off against the Houston Cougars and Elvin Hayes at the Houston Astrodome. It was the first NCAA regular-season game aired nationwide in prime time and was labeled the "Game of the Century." UCLA and Houston were number one and two in the polls, respectively. Eight days prior, Alcindor had suffered a scratched left eyeball, and it showed. Alcindor arguably had his worst outing as a Bruin, shooting under 50 percent from the field (4-for-18) for the only time in his college career. The Cougars defeated the Bruins 71-69, snapping UCLA's 47-game winning streak. UCLA got their revenge just two months later in the 1968 NCAA Tournament, knocking out Houston 101-69 in the semifinals.

I do believe I read it somewhere else, that it was two games, though.

[The Iron Fist]

Here are some interesting facts.

69 Bucks 27-55 Kareems RS 56-26
59 Warriors 32-40 Wilts RS 49-26
56 Celtics 39-33 Bills RS 44-28
84 Bulls 27-55 Mikes RS 28-44
79 Celtics 29-53 Birds RS 61-21
79 Lakers 47-35 Magics RS 60-22
92 Magic 21-61 Shaqs RS 41-41

[LAZERUSS]

Psileas, here is another link claiming only one game in his college career in which he shot less than 50%...

http://www.stellarcollegebballgame.com/1968UCLA.html

[LAZERUSS]

And you probably already have them, but here are Alcindor's Tournament stats:

1. 29 pts, 10 rebs, 12-17 FG/FGA, 5-5 FT/FTA

2. 38 pts, 14 rebs, 11-20 FG/FGA, 12-14 FT/FTA

3. 19 pts, 20 rebs, 6-11 FG/FGA, 7-13 FT/FTA

4. 20 pts, 18 rebs, 8-12 FG/FGA, 4-11 FT/FTA


5. 28 pts, 23 rebs, 9-13 FG/FGA, 10-16 FT/FTA

6. 22 pts, 18 rebs, 6-8 FG/FGA, 10-17 FT/FTA

7. 19 pts, 18 rebs, 7-14 FG/FGA, 5-6 FT/FTA

8. 34 pts, 16 rebs, 15-21 FG/FGA, 4-4 FT/FTA


9. 16 pts, 16 rebs, 8-15 FG/FGA, 0-5 FT/FTA

10. 17 pts, 7 rebs, 8-14 FG/FGA, 1-3 FT/FTA

11. 25 pts, 21 rebs, 8-14 FG/FGA, 9-16 FT/FTA

12. 37 pts, 20 rebs, 15-20 FG/FGA, 7-9 FT/FTA

[Psileas]

I do have them, but thanks.
Impressive and yet it's easy to believe: He already shot 63.9% in his career. Take out that single game and his shooting goes up to 64.4%. Plus, he did shoot an incredible 68.3% as a freshman (so, add another 696 points to his resume), but as we know, these numbers aren't officially added in his totals.
Else, we'd be talking about a 64.9% FG percentage (plus pretty much all the available awards and titles, like you wrote).

[Pointguard]

Definitely top 3.

Greatest case for GOAT outside of MJ, imho.

Elite scorer
Great rebounder
Great defensive player
Pretty good passer
Great athlete
Top notch intangibles
Top 5 peak
Terrific longevity
Awards, accolades and records in bunches
Amazing impact


Nice defense? He would've walked way with like 3 DPOY's had there been the award.
Not a downer to take out the intangible part out, he can't really claim that, but he has all those other things along with playing a smart game, with the games perhaps most lethal weapon in his arsenal.

[LAZERUSS]

I do have them, but thanks.
Impressive and yet it's easy to believe: He already shot 63.9% in his career. Take out that single game and his shooting goes up to 64.4%. Plus, he did shoot an incredible 68.3% as a freshman (so, add another 696 points to his resume), but as we know, these numbers aren't officially added in his totals.
Else, we'd be talking about a 64.9% FG percentage (plus pretty much all the available awards and titles, like you wrote).

Here is another link which credits an article from 1988, but the hosting server is no longer available...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_the_Century_(college_basketball)

[QUOTE]The January 1968 cover of Sports Illustrated depicted the game, with Hayes shooting over Alcindor. Alcindor

[LAZERUSS]

As for the KAJ-Wilt arguments...

The reality was, Chamberlain was a better scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, shot-blocker, more efficient in terms of FG%(in his most efficient FG% seasons), and despite KAJ's edge from the FT line, Wilt averaged nearly 100 more FTs MADE per season.