More impressive: Lebron, Dantley or Hakeem (2014,1983,1994)

[TheMarkMadsen]

Dantley: 31/6/5 with 1 steal and no blocks on 58%

Lebron: 25/7/7 with 2 steals and .3 blocks per game on 60%

Hakeem: 27/12/4 with 2 steals and 4 blocks on 53%


Obviously Lebron has an advantage of not having played the whole season yet, but with the way the HEAT are built i doubt the FG% or assist go down.

Interested to see who's stat line is more impressive..bored on a snowy night

[plowking]

I'm assuming Lebron goes up to about 26-27ppg on about 58% shooting, and the rebounds probably go up to 8.
Anyway, the season isn't done yet, so hard to tell.

I never liked Dantley as a player, so I never bothered to watch much of his games on tape. The only ones I've seen is of the Larry Bird collection I have, so a small number of games.

Obviously Hakeem's season is nice, and I've seen bits and pieces, games, here and there. I'd say Lebron's last season is better than all 3 of these mentioned.

[moe94]

The fact that Dream has 2 steals and 4 blocks makes this pretty damn easy to choose.

[TheMarkMadsen]

The fact that Dream has 2 steals and 4 blocks makes this pretty damn easy to choose.


I was surprised to see Lebrons blocks so low compared to his previous seasons.

I didn't see Dantley play but added him since this was off raw stats and not much else.

[Scholar]

Hakeem's numbers are pretty insane.
He was averaging 4 assists at the C position. Those blocks and steals are amazing, too.

[Marchesk]

24/24/8 with 7 blocks on 68% and 68 wins - I'll take that guy

[moe94]

24/24/8 with 7 blocks on 68% and 68 wins - I'll take that guy

Damn, someone did that in the modern era? Who? :eek:

Wilt is wack

[Marchesk]

Damn, someone did that in the modern era? Who? :eek:

Wilt is wack

Define the modern era.

So say pace adjusted it was 16/16/7/4 70%. Assists wouldn't go down much if at all as rules were stricter then.

So throw that player in with the other 3. How does he stack up?

[NumberSix]

I was surprised to see Lebrons blocks so low compared to his previous seasons.

I didn't see Dantley play but added him since this was off raw stats and not much else.
The heat been been playing only OK defense this season. They don't care about rebounding and barely care about defense most nights. They've decided to be all about efficient offense. At least for now. They can still turn the D up, but they have been pretty lazy with it mostly.

[Marchesk]

To answer the question, I'm going with Hakeem. He has a bigger overall impact with his rebounding and defending the rim.

[NumberSix]

To answer the question, I'm going with Hakeem. He has a bigger overall impact with his rebounding and defending the rim.
His English wasn't that great though.

[get these NETS]

AD missed 60 games in 82-83

thought that was an exceptionally high shooting percentage for an over 30ppg scorer

[TheMarkMadsen]

AD missed 60 games in 82-83

thought that was an exceptionally high shooting percentage for an over 30ppg scorer

I should have put 81 or 82

Forgive me

[CavaliersFTW]

24pts on 68% 24reb and 8 assists with probably 5+ blocks a game >>>

[Dr.J4ever]

Dantley was a great scorer, but without checking the Jazz' win/loss, he never played for a winner, and never made his teams win until he went to Detroit. The Pistons have been challenging in the Playoffs but needed a low post scorer. Of course AD's numbers fell when he was with Detroit.

This thread is a good follow up to what I was saying in another thread about "empty stats". I don't believe in a literal "empty stat", since stats always means something, in my view. However, playing for the Jazz, and not even being considered as one of the better teams in the NBA is pretty close to what you would think as stats with less impact. It is far easier to put up good numbers on a bad team than it is to lead a contending team. Heck, just look at Evan Turner this year with the Sixers. The Sixers said, "here's the ball, take it to the rim", and he's getting the numbers. Is ET averaging more PPG than Tony Parker? Anyone willing to take Turner over Parker as the anchor of your team?

To answer your question, Lebron and Hakeem's numbers are much better when put in a context of winning.

[pauk]

Dantley used to take as many perimeter shots as Hakeem maybe even less, midrange/just outside the paint was as far back as they would shoot, Lebrons points with that efficiency is therefore much more impressive especially when considering he also does that with 5-6 less min. & shots a game... so i dont think Dantleys statline was more impressive, but Hakeem with his rebs/asts/stls/blks has a strong case.

[Marchesk]

His English wasn't that great though.

:lol A funny Lebron stan. Who would have thought.

[LAZERUSS]

24pts on 68% 24reb and 8 assists with probably 5+ blocks a game >>>

NBAStats.net has Wilt's block totals from the actual recorded games, as well as estimates, for almost every game he played in 66-67. I suspect that his bpg was well over 8 bpg, and likely over 10.

And, thanks to ThaRegul8r, we now know that Chamberlain averaged 5.42 bpg in his very last season (72-73)...which would only trail Eaton's 5.56 in 84-85. This, from a Wilt who was well past his prime. BTW, Harvey Pollack alos estimated that Wilt had seasons of 10+.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

24pts on 68% 24reb and 8 assists with probably 5+ blocks a game >>>
He wouldn't get 24 rebounds or as many blocks as he did today. Especially with the 3 pt line.

[Bandito]

Why Wilt retired if he was that good?

[LAZERUSS]

Why Wilt retired if he was that good?

In Chamberlain's last season, he came in 4th in MVP balloting; led his team to a 60-22 record, and his 4th trip to the Finals in his five seasons as a Laker; led the league in rebounding (and Nate Thurmond was nearly two rpg behind...more on that in a moment); was voted first-team all-defense (over guys like Lanier, Cowens, Hayes, Kareem, and Nate); blocked 5.42 shots per game; and set an NBA record mark of a .727 FG%.

Then, in the playoffs, while Thurmond led the 47-35 Warriors to a shocking win over KAJ's 60-22 Bucks (in a series in which KAJ shot .428 from the floor), Chamberlain just crushed Nate. He outrebounded by a 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg margin; and outshot him by a .550 to .398 margin from the field. Overall, in Wilt's 17 post-season games, he played 47.1 mpg, and averaged 22.5 rpg... in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg team. BTW, the next best mark since? KAJ's 17.3 rpg in 11 playoff games in the 76-77 post-season. Oh, and in his very last game, he scored 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds.

He never actually retired. He jumped to ABA, but he was still under contract with the Lakers, so he could not play. Instead, he coached SD for one season. He decided to hang it up after that. Still, he was receiving legitimate offers to play even into his 40's...and yes, even at age 50.

[Marchesk]

He wouldn't get 24 rebounds or as many blocks as he did today. Especially with the 3 pt line.

But he might get 16. Does something along the lines of 16/16/8/5 on 70% shooting compare with the other three (just guessing that pace adjustment and minutes per game reduces scoring and rebounding by 1/3 and blocked shots in half).

[CavaliersFTW]

Why Wilt retired if he was that good?
Lawsuit after jumping to the ABA to be player coach which forced him to sit out a season - when he sat out he decided to move on in life and not to return to the game. He continued to receive offers to play from there on out until he was 54 years old. At 36 his final NBA season he set the still standing record in accuracy, played in Finals, finished 4th in MVP voting, lead the league in rebounding, probably lead the league in blocked shots, was 1st team all defense and would have been the front runner for DPOY. He definitely retired way earlier than he needed to with a lot more left in the tank. He didn't retire because he wasn't any good anymore, he just decided to stop playing.

[Bandito]

Lawsuit after jumping to the ABA to be player coach which forced him to sit out a season - when he sat out he decided to move on in life and not to return to the game. He continued to receive offers to play from there on out until he was 54 years old. At 36 his final NBA season he set the still standing record in accuracy, played in Finals, finished 4th in MVP voting, lead the league in rebounding, probably lead the league in blocked shots, was 1st team all defense and would have been the front runner for DPOY. He definitely retired way earlier than he needed to with a lot more left in the tank. He didn't retire because he wasn't any good anymore, he just decided to stop playing.
Ah so he was probably like fvck it then. Man I don't care what kids say about his generation but that guy was a beast.

[Dr.J4ever]

NBAStats.net has Wilt's block totals from the actual recorded games, as well as estimates, for almost every game he played in 66-67. I suspect that his bpg was well over 8 bpg, and likely over 10.

And, thanks to ThaRegul8r, we now know that Chamberlain averaged 5.42 bpg in his very last season (72-73)...which would only trail Eaton's 5.56 in 84-85. This, from a Wilt who was well past his prime. BTW, Harvey Pollack alos estimated that Wilt had seasons of 10+.
Wilt must have been a veritable force of nature with that 5.42bpg in what would be considered his down years. That stat is a legit stat that flies in the face of those who believe the best players are all playing in this era.

I mean a block is a block. It takes timing, and Wilt had timing well into his latter years.

Wow!

[K Xerxes]

Quite a random collection of seasons, but clearly Hakeem's. Those blocks and steals stats... just wow. :bowdown:

[dankok8]

In Chamberlain's last season, he came in 4th in MVP balloting; led his team to a 60-22 record, and his 4th trip to the Finals in his five seasons as a Laker; led the league in rebounding (and Nate Thurmond was nearly two rpg behind...more on that in a moment); was voted first-team all-defense (over guys like Lanier, Cowens, Hayes, Kareem, and Nate); blocked 5.42 shots per game; and set an NBA record mark of a .727 FG%.

Then, in the playoffs, while Thurmond led the 47-35 Warriors to a shocking win over KAJ's 60-22 Bucks (in a series in which KAJ shot .428 from the floor), Chamberlain just crushed Nate. He outrebounded by a 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg margin; and outshot him by a .550 to .398 margin from the field. Overall, in Wilt's 17 post-season games, he played 47.1 mpg, and averaged 22.5 rpg... in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg team. BTW, the next best mark since? KAJ's 17.3 rpg in 11 playoff games in the 76-77 post-season. Oh, and in his very last game, he scored 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds.

He never actually retired. He jumped to ABA, but he was still under contract with the Lakers, so he could not play. Instead, he coached SD for one season. He decided to hang it up after that. Still, he was receiving legitimate offers to play even into his 40's...and yes, even at age 50.

Wilt wasn't as dominant rebounding in his last season as his overall stats might suggest. Thurmond outrebounded him in all 7 H2H's, Kareem outrebounded him in 5 out of 6, and Cowens outrebounded him in 3 out 4.

Guys were also dropping some huge offensive numbers on 72-73 Wilt. His defensive impact was nowhere near the seasons before despite the nice looking numbers.

As for OP's question it's almost a dead tie between Hakeem and LBJ.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt wasn't as dominant rebounding in his last season as his overall stats might suggest. Thurmond outrebounded him in all 7 H2H's, Kareem outrebounded him in 5 out of 6, and Cowens outrebounded him in 3 out 4.

Guys were also dropping some huge offensive numbers on 72-73 Wilt. His defensive impact was nowhere near the seasons before despite the nice looking numbers.

As for OP's question it's almost a dead tie between Hakeem and LBJ.

In the WCF's, Chamberlain just crushed Nate on the glass. And once again, no one, not KAJ, Thurmond, Cowens, or anyone else, ever averaged 22.5 rpg in the post-season after those playoffs. In fact, the highest mark since was Kareem's 17.3 rpg in the '77 playoffs (and in six games less overall.)

Wilt was by-far-and-away, the best rebounder of his era,...even into his last season.

As for his defensive impact, in their six regular season H2H's, Wilt held KAJ to a .450 FG%, with only game above 50%. He even outscored Kareem in one game (24-21, on 10-14 shooting to KAJ's 10-27), and overall, outshot Kareem by a .737 to that .450 margin.

In the playoffs, he held Thurmond to a .398 FG%, while shooting .550 himself, and once again, just annihilated him on the glass.

And Lanier slightly outscored Wilt in their six H2H games that year, 127-119, but I do know that Wilt shot...get this... .836 from the field against him.

True, Cowens outplayed Chamberlain that year. But, he also went on to win the MVP, so he had his share against everyone in the league that year.

And once more time, Wilt blocked a known 5.42 bpg in his last season. The league did not officially start recording that stat until the very next year, but think about this: In that 73-74 season, KAJ averaged 3.5 bpg, and Nate was at 2.9 bpg.

[dankok8]

In the WCF's, Chamberlain just crushed Nate on the glass. And once again, no one, not KAJ, Thurmond, Cowens, or anyone else, ever averaged 22.5 rpg in the post-season after those playoffs. In fact, the highest mark since was Kareem's 17.3 rpg in the '77 playoffs (and in six games less overall.)

Wilt was by-far-and-away, the best rebounder of his era,...even into his last season.

As for his defensive impact, in their six regular season H2H's, Wilt held KAJ to a .450 FG%, with only game above 50%. He even outscored Kareem in one game (24-21, on 10-14 shooting to KAJ's 10-27), and overall, outshot Kareem by a .737 to that .450 margin.

In the playoffs, he held Thurmond to a .398 FG%, while shooting .550 himself, and once again, just annihilated him on the glass.

And Lanier slightly outscored Wilt in their six H2H games that year, 127-119, but I do know that Wilt shot...get this... .836 from the field against him.

True, Cowens outplayed Chamberlain that year. But, he also went on to win the MVP, so he had his share against everyone in the league that year.

And once more time, Wilt blocked a known 5.42 bpg in his last season. The league did not officially start recording that stat until the very next year, but think about this: In that 73-74 season, KAJ averaged 3.5 bpg, and Nate was at 2.9 bpg.

Wilt always killed Lanier... :bowdown: no argument there. Wilt was beastly shotblocker although blocks do not always equal defensive impact. Is Ibaka a better defender than prime Garnett?

However in 72-73 Kareem outplayed Wilt pretty badly... look at all the games not just that one game.


Regular season – 1972-73

23.Date: Tue 11/14/72
- Chamberlain 16 pts, 15 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 8-12 FG/FGA, 0-2 FT/FTA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 6 as, 7 blocks, 17-32 FG/FGA, 3-4 FT/FTA L

24.Date: Tue 12/05/72
- Chamberlain 9 pts, 15 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 4-4 FG/FGA, 1-2 FT/FTA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 17 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 11-30 FG/FGA, 7-7 FT/FTA L

25.Date: Sun 01/07/73
- Chamberlain 9 pts, 18 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA, 3-6 FT/FTA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 12 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 17-36 FG/FGA, 3-4 FT/FTA W

26.Date: Fri 02/09/73
- Chamberlain 8 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 3-3 FG/FGA, 2-2 FT/FTA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 24 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 14-24 FG/FGA, 1-2 FT/FTA W

27.Date: Sun 02/25/73
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 20 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 10-14 FG/FGA, 4-5 FT/FTA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 21 pts, 21 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 10-27 FG/FGA, 1-2 FT/FTA L

28.Date: Tue 03/27/73
- Chamberlain 0 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 0-0 FG/FGA, 0-0 FT/FTA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 24 pts, 17 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 12-31 FG/FGA, 0-1 FT/FTA W

Chamberlain: 11.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg, 3.7 apg on 73.7 %FG/58.8 %FT/72.6 %TS
Abdul-Jabbar: 29.5 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 4.7 apg on 45.0 %FG/75.0 %FT/46.7 %TS

It's not a knock on Wilt. He was a declining 36-year old but he was no match for Kareem. Again vs. Thurmond you can't compare FG% without comparing PPG. Wilt took 18 shots in the whole series and Nate took 83 shots.


1973 WCF

Chamberlain: 7.0 ppg, 23.6 rpg, 3.8 apg on 61.1 %FG
Thurmond: 15.8 rpg, 17.2 rpg, 4.2 apg on 39.8 %FG



Looking at individual games Nate still won two rebounding battles in that series 26-25 and 18-16. Wilt won the other three by large margins. Overall it's pretty much a wash between them. LA just outclassed GS as a team.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt always killed Lanier... :bowdown: no argument there. Wilt was beastly shotblocker although blocks do not always equal defensive impact. Is Ibaka a better defender than prime Garnett?

However in 72-73 Kareem outplayed Wilt pretty badly... look at all the games not just that one game.



It's not a knock on Wilt. He was a declining 36-year old but he was no match for Kareem. Again vs. Thurmond you can't compare FG% without comparing PPG. Wilt took 18 shots in the whole series and Nate took 83 shots.



Looking at individual games Nate still won two rebounding battles in that series 26-25 and 18-16. Wilt won the other three by large margins. Overall it's pretty much a wash between them. LA just outclassed GS as a team.

Good points, and excellent research.

:cheers:

Incidently, Lanier had his share of big games against Wilt, including one with 42 points. Still, in the course of 11 straight games, Chamberlain averaged 23.9 ppg on a staggering .784 FG%.

And speaking of Lanier, Thurmond easily outplayed him until late in his career. He had two 40+ point games against Lanier.

And I agree with a prime KAJ outplaying Wilt in Chamberlain's last season. Still, it was quite a testament Chamberlain's defense to hold a prime KAJ, who would shoot .554 in that season, to a .450 FG% (all while averaging 11 ppg on a .737 FG% himself.)

Once again, it was too bad that we never got to see a prime Chamberlain go H2H with a prime KAJ. I am convinced that he would have outplayed him. A mid-60's Wilt, with great athleticism and quickness, to go along with his massive strength, would have crushed KAJ on the glass, and no doubt would have been scoring on him. And given that an old Wilt held KAJ to a .464 FG% in their 28 career H2H's, I suspect that a motivated Wilt would have dramatically reduced KAJ's efficiency (just like he did to virtually every center he faced in his career.)

[dankok8]

Good points, and excellent research.

:cheers:

Incidently, Lanier had his share of big games against Wilt, including one with 42 points. Still, in the course of 11 straight games, Chamberlain averaged 23.9 ppg on a staggering .784 FG%.

And speaking of Lanier, Thurmond easily outplayed him until late in his career. He had two 40+ point games against Lanier.

And I agree with a prime KAJ outplaying Wilt in Chamberlain's last season. Still, it was quite a testament Chamberlain's defense to hold a prime KAJ, who would shoot .554 in that season, to a .450 FG% (all while averaging 11 ppg on a .737 FG% himself.)

Once again, it was too bad that we never got to see a prime Chamberlain go H2H with a prime KAJ. I am convinced that he would have outplayed him. A mid-60's Wilt, with great athleticism and quickness, to go along with his massive strength, would have crushed KAJ on the glass, and no doubt would have been scoring on him. And given that an old Wilt held KAJ to a .464 FG% in their 28 career H2H's, I suspect that a motivated Wilt would have dramatically reduced KAJ's efficiency (just like he did to virtually every center he faced in his career.)

I think if Kareem and Wilt faced each other in their primes both guys would struggle to score efficiently. Kareem was a big guy too and a great man-to-man defender. Wilt would win the rebounding battles by a bit as he did in their H2H's. Who would win more games though... that's the question. I think 76-77 Kareem (who was 260+ lbs) could withstand Chamberlain's physical attack.

[Miller for 3]

Two of those guys were lockdown defenders who made their teams better. The other is Lebron. Add that with the fact that they did it with no defensive 3 seconds, handchecking, traveling being enforced, PED testing, no flopping Euro players or stretch fours, etc., and this is blowout. Lebron should be compared to Michael Cooper or other role players, not allstar level players

[AboutBuckets]

The heat been been playing only OK defense this season. They don't care about rebounding and barely care about defense most nights. They've decided to be all about efficient offense. At least for now. They can still turn the D up, but they have been pretty lazy with it mostly.

This. Re-watch the last 6 minutes of the Pacers game a few days ago to see the bolded in full effect

Edit: to avoid derailing, I'm going to go with Hakeem in terms of the most impactful statline in his team's success that season, but in the OP Dantley is doing Lebron better than Lebron.

[Psileas]

Wilt wasn't as dominant rebounding in his last season as his overall stats might suggest. Thurmond outrebounded him in all 7 H2H's, Kareem outrebounded him in 5 out of 6, and Cowens outrebounded him in 3 out 4.

Guys were also dropping some huge offensive numbers on 72-73 Wilt. His defensive impact was nowhere near the seasons before despite the nice looking numbers.

As for OP's question it's almost a dead tie between Hakeem and LBJ.

I've accumulated these stats as well, but I won't be sold on Wilt's opponents' offensive output unless I see their shooting percentages. Yes, quite a few centers actually had high scoring games vs old (esp. 1973) Wilt and, not surprisingly, they were centers with a fine mid-range game (Lanier, Hayes, Cowens, Kareem). But even for them, and even though Wilt didn't like leaving the paint, shooting too many mid-range shots would seem quite a good strategy for Wilt and his team. It's like Russell and the Celtics who were trying to force Wilt to take as many fade-away shots as he could, because, even though he could usually make them at a decent clip, they were still clearly less efficient shots than his dunks, short range finger-rolls, etc. None of these guys would stand a chance to score at high clips near the basket, with Wilt protecting the basket, so I guess most of these shots were mid-range shots at not-so-high %'s. See Thurmond averaging 15-20 ppg at less than 40% FG or Kareem averaging 30 ppg on 45%, I see the same pattern for the rest as well.

[avonbarksdale]

Lawsuit after jumping to the ABA to be player coach which forced him to sit out a season - when he sat out he decided to move on in life and not to return to the game. He continued to receive offers to play from there on out until he was 54 years old. At 36 his final NBA season he set the still standing record in accuracy, played in Finals, finished 4th in MVP voting, lead the league in rebounding, probably lead the league in blocked shots, was 1st team all defense and would have been the front runner for DPOY. He definitely retired way earlier than he needed to with a lot more left in the tank. He didn't retire because he wasn't any good anymore, he just decided to stop playing.


wow ur sucha good poster

[CavaliersFTW]

I think if Kareem and Wilt faced each other in their primes both guys would struggle to score efficiently. Kareem was a big guy too and a great man-to-man defender. Wilt would win the rebounding battles by a bit as he did in their H2H's. Who would win more games though... that's the question. I think 76-77 Kareem (who was 260+ lbs) could withstand Chamberlain's physical attack.
False, Kareem was only 260+ lbs his final 2 NBA seasons, his ENTIRE prime was at a weight of 237-240lbs, and even the majority of his twilight years was played at 240lbs. There are interviews of Kareem in like 1984 discussing his 240lb frame, and he is still quite visibly skinny.

Wilt on the other hand, was 275-290lbs in his prime.

[Psileas]

False, Kareem was only 260+ lbs his final 2 NBA seasons, his ENTIRE prime was at a weight of 237-240lbs, and even the majority of his twilight years was played at 240lbs. There are interviews of Kareem in like 1984 discussing his 240lb frame, and he is still quite visibly skinny.

Wilt on the other hand, was 275-290lbs in his prime.

I suspect those extra pounds (combined with advanced age, obviously) had their toll on Kareem's jumping ability and, therefore, his shooting percentages drastically falling that late period. Even in 1987, he still had no problem shooting at 56.4%, then he falls to 53.2% and the next year to 47.5%, by far a career-low.

[Bryant]

Kobe Bryant.

[inclinerator]

wilt was so good, he retired to give the nba a chance

[dankok8]

I've accumulated these stats as well, but I won't be sold on Wilt's opponents' offensive output unless I see their shooting percentages. Yes, quite a few centers actually had high scoring games vs old (esp. 1973) Wilt and, not surprisingly, they were centers with a fine mid-range game (Lanier, Hayes, Cowens, Kareem). But even for them, and even though Wilt didn't like leaving the paint, shooting too many mid-range shots would seem quite a good strategy for Wilt and his team. It's like Russell and the Celtics who were trying to force Wilt to take as many fade-away shots as he could, because, even though he could usually make them at a decent clip, they were still clearly less efficient shots than his dunks, short range finger-rolls, etc. None of these guys would stand a chance to score at high clips near the basket, with Wilt protecting the basket, so I guess most of these shots were mid-range shots at not-so-high %'s. See Thurmond averaging 15-20 ppg at less than 40% FG or Kareem averaging 30 ppg on 45%, I see the same pattern for the rest as well.

Good point but for Cowens who averaged 20.5 ppg and 16.2 rpg on 45.2% shooting, putting up 31.3 ppg and 19.8 rpg (his numbers on Wilt in 72-73) on whatever % is pretty incredible. I presume he didn't shoot too bad either since Wilt would rarely venture out of the paint to defend guys with range. And after all Boston swept the season series with LA 4-0.


False, Kareem was only 260+ lbs his final 2 NBA seasons, his ENTIRE prime was at a weight of 237-240lbs, and even the majority of his twilight years was played at 240lbs. There are interviews of Kareem in like 1984 discussing his 240lb frame, and he is still quite visibly skinny.

Wilt on the other hand, was 275-290lbs in his prime.

Kareem circa 1977 looks about 20 lbs heavier than 1972 Kareem who I know was 235 lbs. I don't dispute your claim but do you have a source?

[CavaliersFTW]

Good point but for Cowens who averaged 20.5 ppg and 16.2 rpg on 45.2% shooting, putting up 31.3 ppg and 19.8 rpg (his numbers on Wilt in 72-73) on whatever % is pretty incredible. I presume he didn't shoot too bad either since Wilt would rarely venture out of the paint to defend guys with range. And after all Boston swept the season series with LA 4-0.



Kareem circa 1977 looks about 20 lbs heavier than 1972 Kareem who I know was 235 lbs. I don't dispute your claim but do you have a source?
1972 237lbs
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5lZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fj4NAAAAIBAJ&pg=2900,150465&dq=willis+reed+pounds+weigh&hl=en

1976 240lbs
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1346&dat=19760519&id=Am5NAAAAIBAJ&sjid=r_oDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7210,4932330

I think even in the mid 80's he still looked very visibly thin - I don't see him looking 20lbs different from 1972 til say 1985 I think he looks the same: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNGa_VDKqSE

[Pointguard]

1972 237lbs
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5lZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fj4NAAAAIBAJ&pg=2900,150465&dq=willis+reed+pounds+weigh&hl=en

1976 240lbs
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1346&dat=19760519&id=Am5NAAAAIBAJ&sjid=r_oDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7210,4932330

I think even in the mid 80's he still looked very visibly thin - I don't see him looking 20lbs different from 1972 til say 1985 I think he looks the same: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNGa_VDKqSE
His shot demands a lot of balance. Gaining weight would have definitely affected a shot that had a lot of flow, balance and grace. The mechanics are a thing of beauty but are very delicate. Its the reason why few other (nobody) people can do the shot. If he's bottom heavy, his leg would have a pulling gravity. If he's top heavy, the leg would follow the top parts pull - the shot would lose its grace and flow and then mechanically demand changes.

[LAZERUSS]

Good point but for Cowens who averaged 20.5 ppg and 16.2 rpg on 45.2% shooting, putting up 31.3 ppg and 19.8 rpg (his numbers on Wilt in 72-73) on whatever % is pretty incredible. I presume he didn't shoot too bad either since Wilt would rarely venture out of the paint to defend guys with range. And after all Boston swept the season series with LA 4-0.



Kareem circa 1977 looks about 20 lbs heavier than 1972 Kareem who I know was 235 lbs. I don't dispute your claim but do you have a source?

I am going to be brutally honest here. I think most fans vastly under-rate a mid-60's Chamberlain. CavsFan has posted footage of a prime Chamberlain, and while he very seldom extends his range as he did earlier in his career (and it was definitely 15+ ft, and with a myriad of moves), his quickness, leaping ability, and excellent 5-10 ft range was just unstoppable.

And, if a 35-36 year old Chamberlain, at over 300 lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee could routinely block his sky-hook, and dramatically reduce his efficiency...then I am convinced that a prime Wilt would have been just too much for any version of Kareem to handle.

I am not saying that KAJ wouldn't score against Wilt. But I suspect that a prime Chamberlain would have battered him physically, and used his leaping ability and length to either consistently alter, and block the sky-hook (which an old Chamberlain actually did.) And I just don't see any version of KAJ being able to stop a prime Chamberlain at the other end. No one else did it, although Nate was the closest. But even a prime Chamberlain was capable of 45 point games against Thurmond.

And in terms of rebounding...it would have been one-sided. A young peak Kareem was a very good rebounder, but never an elite one. And here again, an old Chamberlain, in their 28 career H2H's outrebounded Kareem by a solid margin. A mid-60's Chamberlain was trashing Russell, Thurmond, and everyone else. hell, even an old Wilt was substantially outrebounding Thurmond, at least in their biggest games.

Overall, a prime Wilt would have had an edge in virtually every area, except FT shooting. But, as was the case his entire career, Chamberlain still MADE FTs. He currently ranks 16th all-time, and while KAJ made more FTs in his career, Chamberlain averaged 432 made per season, compared to KAJ's 335.

[spree43]

Lebron leads the league in turnovers per 100 possessions

That takes a little away from his efficiency, but I'd still take him over Dantleys season, but Olajuwon was so good that year its hard to say.

[Pointguard]

The thing in general about Dantley that is impressive is that he was 6'5 without much speed, jumping ability, quickness or super strength. AND he scored in the post on anybody. McHale was one of the longest powerforwards and he would get it too. Amazing when you think about it.

Dantley has to be the king of TS% as he had six years where he shot over 620%. One complete year when he shot 652 TS%. And in the playoffs all six years when he shot more than once a game his TS% was above 600%. That was his basement.

But once you throw in other stats the impressive fades.

[Pointguard]

I am going to be brutally honest here. I think most fans vastly under-rate a mid-60's Chamberlain. CavsFan has posted footage of a prime Chamberlain, and while he very seldom extends his range as he did earlier in his career (and it was definitely 15+ ft, and with a myriad of moves), his quickness, leaping ability, and excellent 5-10 ft range was just unstoppable.

I think the long sentence got a bit confusing? In his prime he still had the range at least for the first four years. At 40ppg over seven years he had to have been super resourceful with his moves and have range.

Also greatly underestimated was his activity level. To score like he did one has to imagine he moved quickly like peak Amare and the absurd amount of blocks, rebounds, points and assist more than likely meant he was more active than prime Garnett (who never stopped intensely moving!). Or we can double up that crazy year when Dwight was involved in like 75% of plays offensively and defensively.

[dankok8]

I am going to be brutally honest here. I think most fans vastly under-rate a mid-60's Chamberlain. CavsFan has posted footage of a prime Chamberlain, and while he very seldom extends his range as he did earlier in his career (and it was definitely 15+ ft, and with a myriad of moves), his quickness, leaping ability, and excellent 5-10 ft range was just unstoppable.

And, if a 35-36 year old Chamberlain, at over 300 lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee could routinely block his sky-hook, and dramatically reduce his efficiency...then I am convinced that a prime Wilt would have been just too much for any version of Kareem to handle.

I am not saying that KAJ wouldn't score against Wilt. But I suspect that a prime Chamberlain would have battered him physically, and used his leaping ability and length to either consistently alter, and block the sky-hook (which an old Chamberlain actually did.) And I just don't see any version of KAJ being able to stop a prime Chamberlain at the other end. No one else did it, although Nate was the closest. But even a prime Chamberlain was capable of 45 point games against Thurmond.

And in terms of rebounding...it would have been one-sided. A young peak Kareem was a very good rebounder, but never an elite one. And here again, an old Chamberlain, in their 28 career H2H's outrebounded Kareem by a solid margin. A mid-60's Chamberlain was trashing Russell, Thurmond, and everyone else. hell, even an old Wilt was substantially outrebounding Thurmond, at least in their biggest games.

Overall, a prime Wilt would have had an edge in virtually every area, except FT shooting. But, as was the case his entire career, Chamberlain still MADE FTs. He currently ranks 16th all-time, and while KAJ made more FTs in his career, Chamberlain averaged 432 made per season, compared to KAJ's 335.

It's true that younger Chamberlain could do some of those things (like jump higher...) but Wilt in the early 70's still focused a huge part of his energy on defense and rebounding. Even in the mid 60's he did a lot more scoring and couldn't afford to be a defensive specialist he was later. Plus Lakers Wilt had more strength to overpower young Kareem. A 270 lbs wouldn't do as well as 310 lbs Wilt in that respect.

Rebounding-wise people underrate Kareem. In 28 Kareem-Wilt H2H's the rebounding battle is 14-14. Wilt won his by slightly greater margins. If you look at their rebounding battles against Thurmond, Unseld, Cowens etc. it's also pretty even between Kareem and Wilt. I don't buy that prime Wilt was a much better rebounder... A BIT BETTER for sure though.

And don't say Wilt was capable of 45+ against Thurmond. He did it ONCE AGAINST A YOUNG NATE and in that season Wilt still averaged 28.6 ppg on him, most likely at under 50% shooting (46.3% in games we have FGA).