Believe it or not, Dirk Nowitzki plays good D

[DirkNowitzki41]

[QUOTE]Here

[It's A VC3!!!]

He's not a lockdown defender, that's for sure. However, he is a solid team defender and opposing teams don't say "Dirk is on you, ISO, ISO". Because of that, he is a solid defender.

[andremiller07]

High IQ player, good size and wants to compete so yeah he will play good D no surprise.

[DirkNowitzki41]

Yep, well said. Just always though that his reputation for being a liability was unfair.

He had his trouble while playing Nellie ball, but that was over 8 years ago

[PickernRoller]

Shutting down Gasol doesn't qualify as good D anymore. Yes, dating back to 11'.

[get these NETS]

thread is huge pile of bull shit


Dirk is 7 feet tall with EXCELLENT footwork....and about average nba wingspan for his height

with those , he has the tools to be a good defender for his position

he just never had the desire to be a good defender


miss me with the racist code words

[DirkNowitzki41]

thread is huge pile of bull shit


Dirk is 7 feet tall with EXCELLENT footwork....and about average nba wingspan for his height

with those , he has the tools to be a good defender for his position

he just never had the desire to be a good defender


miss me with the racist code words

Uhh.. this thread is not only about Dirk being unathletic. So your post doesnt make that much sense.

It's about how in the last few years, he has actually been a solid defender.

Read the article. Dirk himself said it best... so him never having the desire to be a good defender is bull shit

[get these NETS]

For someone who has his athletic limitations, he holds his own pretty nicely.



:facepalm

[DirkNowitzki41]

:facepalm

Okay well, how is that wrong? Would you really consider Dirk to be athletic?
[QUOTE]

[get these NETS]

article is garbage

lack of defensive effort/understanding of defensive principles was the knock against euro-players for years

so i'm not gonna single dirk out

but article is garbage because i don't think it mentions any change in dirk's defensive stats and how they relate to nba rule changes involving zones which surely have helped weak center and power forward defenders

i skimmed article so if it mentions that i apologize

[TaLvsCuaL]

There are many stereotypes, if you're a big and white you must be soft, unathletic and good shooter. That's what I've heard :lol

[get these NETS]

Okay well, how is that wrong? Would you really consider Dirk to be athletic?
dirk is a great scorer

post MJ...standards have been higher and people expect superstars to be great two way players or at least great offensive and good defensive player

dirk is great scorer and average to bad defender for his position

i blame it on lack of effort...not lack of athleticism

dirk is better athlete than kevin mchale by leaps and bounds but mchale was a better defender at the four spot

[get these NETS]

yeah, I read the article and although they use Dirk's last 5 years....NO mention that those five years coincide with zones being legal.

just like I thought....it's a puff piece..

objective fan can see it...

[The JKidd Kid]

I don't think any one ever called him a liability, it's just that when you do the whole Dirk to KG comparison it's like night and day.

[Pointguard]

yeah, I read the article and although they use Dirk's last 5 years....NO mention that those five years coincide with zones being legal.

just like I thought....it's a puff piece..

objective fan can see it...
They do say that he is guarding the lesser of the big positions which is kind of like a disclaimer. The guy who guards the better of the bigs isn't getting the attention and I think that's unethical. Since when does the healthy guy operating out of the handicap get credit, and the real muscle gets ignored?

Its like an artist who can't draw but is given co-artist that makes his work great and then acting like the co-artist doesn't exist, while saying this genius work is that of Dirk's.

Its incredibly misleading because his era had the two best defensive Power Forwards ever and Dirk is getting credit despite never guarding superstar PF like other good/decent defenders do. And guys who are obviously better like Ibaka aren't getting their just due.

[raiderfan19]

They do say that he is guarding the lesser of the big positions which is kind of like a disclaimer. The guy who guards the better of the bigs isn't getting the attention and I think that's unethical. Since when does the healthy guy operating out of the handicap get credit, and the real muscle gets ignored?

Its like an artist who can't draw but is given co-artist that makes his work great and then acting like the co-artist doesn't exist, while saying this genius work is that of Dirk's.

Its incredibly misleading because his era had the two best defensive Power Forwards ever and Dirk is getting credit despite never guarding superstar PF like other good/decent defenders do. And guys who are obviously better like Ibaka aren't getting their just due.
Ignoring all the other stupidity in this, Duncan hasnt guarded a star big man in nearly a decade until late in games. He's obviously a much better defender than dirk, but the days of Duncan guarding star bigs went away a long time ago.

And kg hasn't had to carry a superstars offensive load since he went to Boston. Again still clearly a much better defender than dirk(and one of the few guys who is legitimately fun to watch play defense) but they are all very different players in very different roles.

[creepingdeath]

Dirk is getting credit despite never guarding superstar PF like other good/decent defenders do.
In the postseason, most recently Aldridge & Gasol.

[DMAVS41]

No surprise...Dirk started to become a good defender around the 04 season and has improved throughout his career.

He does have some athletic limitations in terms of being able to elevate and contest shots and also hedge and recover on high pick and rolls...so to act like he can do that is just false...

Dirk is a smart team defender and actually a pretty damn solid man to man defender at his position. It's the quick guards and smaller players that he has trouble with like I mentioned above when he has to help.

People just stick with the narrative no matter what. It's what I've learned the most on here since joining. Nobody can admit they were wrong. All the numbers back up Dirk being an above average defender....not to mention his excellent defensive rebounding (especially in the playoffs)

We heard his plus/minus and defensive numbers were all about Chandler. So what is the excuse now? That he has Dalembert/Blair anchoring the paint? With Calderon and Ellis locking down the perimeter? ROFL...

[D-Wade316]

Def RAPM(2011)
Dirk - +3
Chandler - +2.7
Lebron - +2.4

:applause:

[get these NETS]

No surprise...Dirk started to become a good defender around the 04 season and has improved throughout his career.

He does have some athletic limitations in terms of being able to elevate and contest shots and also hedge and recover on high pick and rolls...so to act like he can do that is just false...

Dirk is a smart team defender and actually a pretty damn solid man to man defender at his position. It's the quick guards and smaller players that he has trouble with like I mentioned above when he has to help.

People just stick with the narrative no matter what. It's what I've learned the most on here since joining. Nobody can admit they were wrong. All the numbers back up Dirk being an above average defender....not to mention his excellent defensive rebounding (especially in the playoffs)

We heard his plus/minus and defensive numbers were all about Chandler. So what is the excuse now? That he has Dalembert/Blair anchoring the paint? With Calderon and Ellis locking down the perimeter? ROFL...

nah....and I haven't forgotten the thread about Dirk and alltime pfs either



who would you say is an AVERAGE defender at the pf position since you say that Dirk is above average?

Dirk's "numbers" defensively coincide with defensive rule changes (zone)


Why is Dirk mentioning "upper body strength and blocking shots" when the talk is of defending 4s and 5s where lower body strength, footwork, length comes into play more?

Why are similarly built players better defenders than Dirk....like super athlete muscleman high jumper Kevin Mchale?

[Pointguard]

Ignoring all the other stupidity in this, Duncan hasnt guarded a star big man in nearly a decade until late in games. He's obviously a much better defender than dirk, but the days of Duncan guarding star bigs went away a long time ago.

And kg hasn't had to carry a superstars offensive load since he went to Boston. Again still clearly a much better defender than dirk(and one of the few guys who is legitimately fun to watch play defense) but they are all very different players in very different roles.
Well clown what exactly are you arguing? Do you know?

Why are you comparing them when you know its profound stupidity to do so? But you went there because you know how you role. Even now, since you believe that once Dirk hit 32 his delayed defense gene kicked in, he isn't the defender they are.

You all over the place not making sense in anything you wrote. KG's offense??? Write a coherent sentence about defense first and maybe then we can change topics. If you disagree with me, just say it. But when you babble, agree with me and then call it stupid - its bad look on your part. Com'on Raderfan you are better than that.

[get these NETS]

They do say that he is guarding the lesser of the big positions which is kind of like a disclaimer. The guy who guards the better of the bigs isn't getting the attention and I think that's unethical. Since when does the healthy guy operating out of the handicap get credit, and the real muscle gets ignored?

Its like an artist who can't draw but is given co-artist that makes his work great and then acting like the co-artist doesn't exist, while saying this genius work is that of Dirk's.

Its incredibly misleading because his era had the two best defensive Power Forwards ever and Dirk is getting credit despite never guarding superstar PF like other good/decent defenders do. And guys who are obviously better like Ibaka aren't getting their just due.


yeah...writer added that Dirk is guarding the lesser player...but that undermines his entire article

have hard time understanding why people can't allow their heroes to have flaws .....?



Magic Johnson was one of the top 6 human beings to ever play basketball, but if you call him a great defender EVEN his wife will slap you for lying!

But with a straight face....Dirk fans will say that he was an above average defender.

[Pointguard]

In the postseason, most recently Aldridge & Gasol.
You and Dmavs have said this but I saw a couple of those games and it was Chandler and Hayward on LMA. When I looked it up I seen articles about LMA going too far out for Chandler and penetration for Portland was kicking in. So they put Tyson on the center position where he belonged as he's much better under the rim. Then in LMA's bad fifth game it was mostly Hayward on him. There were three articles like that and their was one that talked about Dirk's success on LMA, apparently in spot duty. Are you saying Dirk guarded LMA most of the game? or in spot duty? Most of the series recaps don't mention Dirk going over fulltime to guard LMA.

Gasol, after 2010, would guard himself.

[Pointguard]

yeah...writer added that Dirk is guarding the lesser player...but that undermines his entire article

have hard time understanding why people can't allow their heroes to have flaws .....?

Magic Johnson was one of the top 6 human beings to ever play basketball, but if you call him a great defender EVEN his wife will slap you for lying!

But with a straight face....Dirk fans will say that he was an above average defender.
Thank you, and Magic is my favorite player of all-time. Jordan is my GOAT and I think he's a social jerk. Wilt couldn't shoot Free Throws. Duncan and KG didn't dominate scoring. Nobody is flawless and its ok.

[SCdac]

few thoughts:

- I don't doubt Dirk has gotten better on D in the last handful of years as he's gotten bigger, stronger, and more experienced, but for much of his career he was average at best or sometimes downright soft/matador-like. Being better now doesn't negate that, really

- the league is hardly a big man's league any more and there's less HOF big men compared to the first 70% of Dirk's career. Aldridge is good but not necessarily as good as prime Webber, Gasol sucked even in the first round of 2011, etc, etc. Woulda been more impressed had Dirk done more of this his first 10 years as a pro....but whatever

- not surprising his highest Drtg came in the season Chandler was on the team while the Mavs were playing elite D (Dirk has credited Tyson for changing the defensive culture and have to think defensive stats went up all around).

- most often, he's playing with the starting lineup which is a better defensive unit relative to the bench (not unusual), and he's not covering the opponent's best (also not unusual). worth keeping in mind.

- he's a smart defender and smart player in general, which does reflect positively in the stats and isn't a farce... but he's not an physical intimidator in the paint, not a great leaper for blocks, and I've seen him float on D so often that it's hard to take advanced stats seriously.

- having said that, his reputation as a bad defender thats rightly shadowed him much of his career probably precedes him now. It happens. He has improved, gotten stockier, tougher mentally. With age, I think he's gotten better in areas of toughness and post play, which is to a degree normal development. But development none the less.

[nathanjizzle]

:facepalm have you seen him move on defense, hes awkward and slow

[East_Stone_Ya]

its not good D just elementary D from him

[Smoke117]

He's not a lockdown defender, that's for sure. However, he is a solid team defender and opposing teams don't say "Dirk is on you, ISO, ISO". Because of that, he is a solid defender.

Too much weight is put on one on one defense. The defenders that made the biggest impact were all excellent at team/help defense.

[50_40_90_]

Instead of "Disco Dirk," Nowitzki's nickname should be "Berlin Wall"

[creepingdeath]

You and Dmavs have said this but I saw a couple of those games and it was Chandler and Hayward on LMA. When I looked it up I seen articles about LMA going too far out for Chandler and penetration for Portland was kicking in. So they put Tyson on the center position where he belonged as he's much better under the rim. Then in LMA's bad fifth game it was mostly Hayward on him. There were three articles like that and their was one that talked about Dirk's success on LMA, apparently in spot duty. Are you saying Dirk guarded LMA most of the game? or in spot duty? Most of the series recaps don't mention Dirk going over fulltime to guard LMA.

Gasol, after 2010, would guard himself.
Not fulltime, no. During the series, the broadcast showed a stat sheet comparing LMA's shot chart when Dirk defended him 1on1 versus when Chandler defended him 1on1. With Dirk on him, LMA shot significantly worse, and that's something you could notice when watching the actual games, too. Naturally, Chandler was the defensive anchor of the Mavs team, however, his big strength was his team defense/rotations. His post defense was inferior to Haywood's, and, at times (those when Dirk chose to/was put on the opponent's better big man), worse than Dirk's.

[ILLsmak]

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4698949/believe-it-or-not-dirk-plays-good-d

:applause: Good article by MacMahon.

People like to quickly assume Dirk is a terrible defender, but it should be clear as day to people that watch him, that he is actually decent on that end, and not the liability people make him out to be.

For someone who has his athletic limitations, he holds his own pretty nicely.

Too bad your name is DIRKNOWITZKI41. Might have a valid point otherwise.

-Smak

[HomieWeMajor]

Too bad your name is DIRKNOWITZKI41. Might have a valid point otherwise.

-Smak
Lol

-HomieWeMajor

[DMAVS41]

nah....and I haven't forgotten the thread about Dirk and alltime pfs either



who would you say is an AVERAGE defender at the pf position since you say that Dirk is above average?

Dirk's "numbers" defensively coincide with defensive rule changes (zone)


Why is Dirk mentioning "upper body strength and blocking shots" when the talk is of defending 4s and 5s where lower body strength, footwork, length comes into play more?

Why are similarly built players better defenders than Dirk....like super athlete muscleman high jumper Kevin Mchale?

Nah...they coincide with his team actually trying to play defense after Nellie ball early on in his career. You can't only look at one part of a players' career.

Dirk was a subpar defender from his rookie year through at least the 02 season...probably 03. He then started to focus more on defense...really starting when Avery took over.

I really don't care what you call him. Average, above average, good, alright...okay. Doesn't matter.

The point is that the narrative on Dirk playing bad defense is false. That's all. If anyone watched him night in night out...you'd know that from about 05 on. He's great at stripping driving players and bigs around the basket, he's been an excellent defensive rebounder most of his career, he almost never makes defensive errors...and his man to man defense in the post is quite good actually. Like I said above...what really hurts Dirk on defense is weak side help (not quick enough to get to the right spot often), hedging and recovering on pick and rolls, and of course rim protection. But it's not like Dirk is a center either though. Just because he's tall doesn't mean he has to play a certain way. He's a sf/pf in style...not a center. Just because guys like Duncan and KG protect the rim...doesn't mean you have to do that...Malone didn't. Barkley didn't. McHale really didn't either for much of his career.

Look...it's the same thing about everyone saying Dirk was a choker and could never win. He then proves everyone wrong...and wins with weak help historically as huge underdogs. Does the narrative change with stubborn people? Of course not...the narrative just evolved into the "help argument" of Kidd, Chandler, Terry...etc. Which is laughable considering what other players have needed to win. It's a similar thing to when Kobe won without Shaq...except at least then Kobe actually did have a stacked team with a consistently great 2nd option and the GOAT coach etc.

Shit...just look at what Lebron has needed to win...LOL.

It's all the same shit. You brought up the best pf's ever thread. You may not like it, but after Duncan...and maybe Pettit if you go by resume...Dirk has a case then as the 2nd or 3rd best pf ever. It's a debate between the likes of Pettit, Malone, Barkley, KG, Dirk...and I guess you could throw in McHale...but I wouldn't. The only way you get Dirk not being on that tier is by being horribly biased.

Look what he's doing this year so far for example...just 21/6/3 on 60% TS and is leading his team along with Ellis to a playoff berth at this point. All while probably playing the best defense on our team outside of Marion to date.

[Pointguard]

Not fulltime, no. During the series, the broadcast showed a stat sheet comparing LMA's shot chart when Dirk defended him 1on1 versus when Chandler defended him 1on1. With Dirk on him, LMA shot significantly worse, and that's something you could notice when watching the actual games, too. Naturally, Chandler was the defensive anchor of the Mavs team, however, his big strength was his team defense/rotations. His post defense was inferior to Haywood's, and, at times (those when Dirk chose to/was put on the opponent's better big man), worse than Dirk's.
Good stuff.

While Tyson earned his DPOY award the next year he had two problems: Mobile centers and real huge centers (Baragani and Hibbert). LMA compromised Tyson's duties under the rim and gets around with the rock as mobile as any PF. It defeats Tyson's strong suite to put him on a mobile PF. You can't really think about defending the paint and guard LMA.

I will say I thought Dirk's defense, in the games I saw in that run, was above average.