Wilt's averages for his 32 60+ point games

[Marchesk]

Rounded:

66 points on 59 FG% (27-45) and 63 FT% (13-20)

Wilt's team average: 133 - 127 for 21 wins and 11 losses

Pace adjusted (on 130 ppg combined team average compared to 98 today):

50 ppg at today's pace.

So Wilt is roughly equivalent to a player today having 32 50 point games in their career.

Kobe has had 25.

[Pointguard]

Rounded:

66 points on 59 FG% (27-45) and 63 FT% (13-20)

Wilt's team average: 133 - 127 for 21 wins and 11 losses

Pace adjusted (on 130 ppg combined team average compared to 98 today):

50 ppg at today's pace.

So Wilt is roughly equivalent to a player today having 32 50 point games in their career.

Kobe has had 25.

Hey Marchesk, curious are those bolded numbers for one game? Or are they some type of accumulated average?

[Marchesk]

Hey Marchesk, curious are those bolded numbers for one game? Or are they some type of accumulated average?

It's just a rounded average over 32 games in which Wilt scored 60 or more points.

He would score less given today's pace, but his FG% would most likely go up. So we're talking instead about a 50 ppg average on say 65% shooting for those games at roughly today's pace.

[Psileas]

Rounded:

66 points on 59 FG% (27-45) and 63 FT% (13-20)

Wilt's team average: 133 - 127 for 21 wins and 11 losses

Pace adjusted (on 130 ppg combined team average compared to 98 today):

50 ppg at today's pace.

So Wilt is roughly equivalent to a player today having 32 50 point games in their career.

Kobe has had 25.

How about adjusting Kobe's games' pace (and then his scoring numbers) as well? The fact that he played in modern leagues doesn't mean that the pace in those specific games was only at league average. Does he still have that many 50-pointers after the adjustment?

[Pointguard]

How about adjusting Kobe's games' pace (and then his scoring numbers) as well? The fact that he played in modern leagues doesn't mean that the pace in those specific games was only at league average. Does he still have that many 50-pointers after the adjustment?

Why wouldn't he??? Or did you mean 60 pointers?

[Psileas]

Why wouldn't he??? Or did you mean 60 pointers?

No, 50-pointers. What the OP did was basically take all of Wilt's 60-point games and implant them into games with a uniform pace, which is the average pace of Kobe's era. My suspicion, however, is that Kobe's 50-point games were played at paces faster than the average pace of Kobe's era and therefore need adjustment themselves to match the same uniform pace, which will bring Kobe's "adjusted" 50-pointers down.

[Marchesk]

Why wouldn't he??? Or did you mean 60 pointers?

He's talking about adjusting the pace of the games Kobe scored 50+ in for today's pace, like I did (roughly) with Wilt. It may be that Kobe's higher scoring games were also above the league team ppg average, as was the case with Wilt.

[millwad]

Rounded:

66 points on 59 FG% (27-45) and 63 FT% (13-20)

Wilt's team average: 133 - 127 for 21 wins and 11 losses

Pace adjusted (on 130 ppg combined team average compared to 98 today):

50 ppg at today's pace.

So Wilt is roughly equivalent to a player today having 32 50 point games in their career.

Kobe has had 25.

How many 60 points games did Wilt have in the playoffs?

I can tell you that, he had ZERO.

[-23-]

How many 60 points games did Wilt have in the playoffs?

I can tell you that, he had ZERO.

:roll: :roll: :roll: For such a great regular season scorer, you'd think he'd of scored 60 at least once.

[Pointguard]

No, 50-pointers. What the OP did was basically take all of Wilt's 60-point games and implant them into games with a uniform pace, which is the average pace of Kobe's era. My suspicion, however, is that Kobe's 50-point games were played at paces faster than the average pace of Kobe's era and therefore need adjustment themselves to match the same uniform pace, which will bring Kobe's "adjusted" 50-pointers down.
Very interesting! Thanks for the clarification.

[aj1987]

No, 50-pointers. What the OP did was basically take all of Wilt's 60-point games and implant them into games with a uniform pace, which is the average pace of Kobe's era. My suspicion, however, is that Kobe's 50-point games were played at paces faster than the average pace of Kobe's era and therefore need adjustment themselves to match the same uniform pace, which will bring Kobe's "adjusted" 50-pointers down.
Not really. All of Kobe's 60+ point games were played at under 90 possesions.

[Psileas]

Not really. All of Kobe's 60+ point games were played at under 90 possesions.

First of all, I was talking about 50 pointers, but you're still wrong: Only one of Kobe's 60 pointers was played at a pace (marginally) below 90, and it's the only one that needed an OT.
Actually, the OP isn't really using pace to adjust games, but scores, and scores seem to diverge as much, if not even more, from the norm, with only the one vs the Mavs coming close to the league averages.

[aj1987]

First of all, I was talking about 50 pointers, but you're still wrong: Only one of Kobe's 60 pointers was played at a pace (marginally) below 90, and it's the only one that needed an OT.
I only did the 60+ pointers because it's a smaller sample and easier to do. Also, Kobe's 81 point game was played at 86 pace. So, no. Most of them are under 90.

[PHILA]

86 pace.

95.4

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200601220LAL.html

[aj1987]

95.4

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200601220LAL.html
:facepalm My bad. Messed up the calculations.

[Marchesk]

How many 60 points games did Wilt have in the playoffs?

I can tell you that, he had ZERO.

How many times did Hakeem's teams lose in the first round? I forgot.

[-23-]

How many times did Hakeem's teams lose in the first round? I forgot.

How many times did Wilt lose with HCA? I forgot.

[LAZERUSS]

There have been a total of six 60+ point games in which the player shot .700 or higher from the field. David Thompson has one, as does Karl Malone. Chamberlain had four. And guess who had the highest FG% in a 60+ point game? Well, of course it was Wilt, at .829 (29-35.)

And there have been 26 games of 60+ in which the player shot .600 or higher...and Chamberlain had 14 of them. The only other player to have more than one was Kobe, with two.

[LAZERUSS]

:roll: :roll: :roll: For such a great regular season scorer, you'd think he'd of scored 60 at least once.

Well, Chamberlain only played 52 of his 160 post-season games in his "scoring" seasons...and 30 of those 52 were against Russell.

Still, he had FOUR 50+ point games, which is easily the most by anyone other than MJ. Furthermore, THREE of those were in "must-win" playoff games. And he added another must-win 46 point game, and a Finals must-win game of 45 points. That is FIVE "must-win" playoff games of 45+.

[LAZERUSS]

No, 50-pointers. What the OP did was basically take all of Wilt's 60-point games and implant them into games with a uniform pace, which is the average pace of Kobe's era. My suspicion, however, is that Kobe's 50-point games were played at paces faster than the average pace of Kobe's era and therefore need adjustment themselves to match the same uniform pace, which will bring Kobe's "adjusted" 50-pointers down.

I agree with this. The fact was, Wilt's 60+ point games came in leagues that averaged between 111-119 ppg. And, BTW, Wilt's 60% FG% over the course of those 32 games, came in leagues that shot an average eFG% of .435.

[avonbarksdale]

being guarded by a 5'7 white guy too

[LAZERUSS]

As a sidenote...Chamberlain had a 62 point game against Russell (on 60% shooting), and a 73 point game against Bellamy (on 60% shooting.)

[millwad]

How many times did Hakeem's teams lose in the first round? I forgot.

Haha, I swear, you Wilt-fans are the most insecure posters around. I mention a fact about Wilt and you try to bash Hakeem.

But since you like the comparison, Olajuwon won 2 titles, just as many as Wilt. And Olajuwon won his two titles while being the clear leader on offense, not like Wilt who was tied for 2nd most points per game in the playoffs in '67 and in his 2nd title run he was the freaking fourth option.

And since it's so important for you, Olajuwon has the highest point per game average in the playoffs among all centers and he shot the ball with a better FG% compared to Wilt and don't even get me started about the FT%..

[millwad]

.

Still, he had FOUR 50+ point games, which is easily the most by anyone other than MJ. Furthermore, THREE of those were in "must-win" playoff games. And he added another must-win 46 point game, and a Finals must-win game of 45 points. That is FIVE "must-win" playoff games of 45+.

Haha, as always you exaggerate like crazy, easily the most 50+ points games in he playoffs behind M? Wilt had four and Iverson had 3, talk about playing with words.


And it's a great example of how Wilt's scoring just faded away in the playoffs, from scoring 60 points or more in 32 regular games to scoring 50 points or more 4 times in the playoffs.

Statpadder.

[-23-]

Well, Chamberlain only played 52 of his 160 post-season games in his "scoring" seasons...and 30 of those 52 were against Russell.

Still, he had FOUR 50+ point games, which is easily the most by anyone other than MJ. Furthermore, THREE of those were in "must-win" playoff games. And he added another must-win 46 point game, and a Finals must-win game of 45 points. That is FIVE "must-win" playoff games of 45+.


And Jordan has twice as many 50pt games. Hence, why Wilt can never be placed above Jordan in all-time rankings.

How about Jordan's HCA record? 24-0 Jordan has never lost with a better team.

Wilt's HCA record? 13-5

The ONLY top 10 player in NBA history who's never lost with a better team is Jordan.

[LAZERUSS]

Haha, as always you exaggerate like crazy, easily the most 50+ points games in he playoffs behind M? Wilt had four and Iverson had 3, talk about playing with words.


And it's a great example of how Wilt's scoring just faded away in the playoffs, from scoring 60 points or more in 32 regular games to scoring 50 points or more 4 times in the playoffs.

Statpadder.

How about this...



Had Wilt had the good "fortune" to have been eliminated in the first round of the playoffs, EIGHT times, as was the case with Hakeem, his first round numbers were often HIGHER. And, I have read an idiot post claiming that Hakeem outshot Wilt from the field in the post-season (by a .528 to .522 margin), BUT, I will be comparing their post-season LEAGUE AVERAGES, (and even including eFG%'s), which CLEARLY gives Chamberlain a HUGE edge.

As examples, in Wilt's fist eight post-seasons, and in his first round, he averaged

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg and on .559 shooting (in a post-season NBA of 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting)

27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg, on .555 shooting, and against Russell)

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (and a great example of FG% at .612 in a post-season at .424)

25.5 ppg (and on .584 shooting, while his opposing center, Bellamy was at 20.0 on .421 shooting.)

Even in his 11th season, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, Chamberlain put up a first round of 23.7 ppg., 20.3 rpg, and .549.

And, in his 71-72 post-season, he had a 14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .629 first round series (and in an NBA post-season of .446.)

So while Chamberlain was shooting .522 in his post-season career, it came in post-seasons of between .402 to .455.) Meanwhile Hakeem's .528 came in post-seasons of as high as .492, and an efg% as high as .500. MANY in the .485+ range, as well.

And, keep in mind two more interesting points. One, in Wilt's second greatest scoring season (44.8 ppg on .528 shooting) his all-time worst roster kept him from playing in the post-season (which probably cost him another 2-3+ ppg in his post-seasob career average.) And two, he faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11.

Wilt's scoring and FG%s would have been MUCH higher. Oh, and Chamberlain's post-season FG% were MUCH higher when compared to league eFG%'s.

[LAZERUSS]

And Jordan has twice as many 50pt games. Hence, why Wilt can never be placed above Jordan in all-time rankings.

How about Jordan's HCA record? 24-0 Jordan has never lost with a better team.

Wilt's HCA record? 13-5

The ONLY top 10 player in NBA history who's never lost with a better team is Jordan.

Wilt's "help" in his post-seasons...


Playoff FG%'s...

'60 Arizin .431 Gola .412
'61 Arizin .325 Gola .206
'62 Arizin .375 Gola .271
'63 Gola...played 21 games and was shipped out
'64 Thurmond .438
'65 Thurmond (?)...half the season. Greer .455 Walker .480
'66 Greer .352 Cunningham .161 Walker .375
'67 Greer .429 Walker .467 Cunningham .376
'68 Greer .432 Walker .410 Cunningham broke wrist in first round (played 3 games)
'69 West .469 Baylor .385
'70 West .469 Baylor .466
'71 West and Baylor...both injured and do not play in playoffs. Goodrich .425
'72 Baylor retires after 9 nine games. West .376. Goodrich .445
'73 West .449 Goodrch .448

'62 Meschery was NOT an all-star. Shoots .397 in playoffs.
'63 Meschery (* All Star. Played 64 games. 16 ppg .425 FG% during season.)
'63 Rodgers (shoots .387 in regular season.
'64 Rodgers .329 in post-season.
'65 Jackson .338 in playoffs.


'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field. Lose gaeme seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of Finals.

[-23-]

Wilt's "help" in his post-seasons...

I'm talking about his record when he had a better team (can be argued they overworked in regular season), but why the decrease in performance in the post-season, to the point where they lose when they have HCA (which is pretty significant, given that road teams statistically are inclined to lose)

[LAZERUSS]

I'm talking about his record when he had a better team (can be argued they overworked in regular season), but why the decrease in performance in the post-season, to the point where they lose when they have HCA (which is pretty significant, given that road teams statistically are inclined to lose)

How about this...in Wilt's two title seasons...his teammates collectively shot .428 and then .414 from the field.

[longtime lurker]

Damn Wilt was such a beast

[-23-]

How about this...in Wilt's two title seasons...his teammates collectively shot .428 and then .414 from the field.

Put those numbers into context. Post season average FG% for the league in those seasons (67' .424% which is ABOVE the league, and .439 in 72' which ill give you) The numbers you put up look shocking in today's league (which is a testament to how it evolved), but back in the 60's, and early 70's a low 40% fg is not uncommon.

[-23-]

I have no problem with people who put Wilt in their top 10, but to have him as either #1, or #2 totally blows my mind. While a great regular season player, his successes never transcended the game, nor translated into post-season success. He is like David Robinson, and a early LBJ. Some hallmark performances, but when it came down to putting the dagger into someone's back, Wilt didn't have the killer instinct (which he ADMITS himself). That is what separates GOATS, and all time greats.

[CavaliersFTW]

I have no problem with people who put Wilt in their top 10, but to have him as either #1, or #2 totally blows my mind. While a great regular season player, his successes never transcended the game, nor translated into post-season success. He is like David Robinson, and a early LBJ. Some hallmark performances, but when it came down to putting the dagger into someone's back, Wilt didn't have the killer instinct (which he ADMITS himself). That is what separates GOATS, and all time greats.
When Wilt was referring to his 'killer instinct' he was specifically referring to his willingness to physically hurt people in comparison to say, Shaq who would routinely try to brutalize opponents with elbows and his body where as Wilt (who had similar capability) almost never directed his physical prowess towards physically hurting his opponents.

He wanted to win at everything he ever did though, just as much as the next guy. Competitiveness is what makes players GOAT candidates not willingness to physically hurt people. How many times did MJ or Magic try to physically hurt their opponents? Is Isiah Thomas and Bruce Bowen better than MJ or Magic because they WERE willing to physically hurt opponents?

Competitivenes (ones desire to win) = / = Killer Instinct (the way Wilt used phrase, a willingness to hurt opponents)

[-23-]

When Wilt was referring to his 'killer instinct' he was specifically referring to his willingness to physically hurt people in comparison to say, Shaq who would routinely try to brutalize opponents with elbows and his body where as Wilt (who had similar capability) almost never directed his physical prowess towards physically hurting his opponents.

He wanted to win at everything he ever did though, just as much as the next guy. Competitiveness is what makes players GOAT candidates not willingness to physically hurt people. How many times did MJ or Magic try to physically hurt their opponents? Is Isiah Thomas and Bruce Bowen better than MJ or Magic because they WERE willing to physically hurt opponents?

Competitivenes (ones desire to win) = / = Killer Instinct (the way Wilt used phrase, a willingness to hurt opponents)

"Boston's Russell, at 6ft 9ins, was a consummate competitor, who recognised that Chamberlain lacked the killer instinct."
http://www.theguardian.com/news/1999/oct/14/guardianobituaries2

"He actually admitted that he sometimes lacked motivation on the court and often had to set certain individual goals in order to keep things interesting for him"

Does this sound like someone who is a killer? Or a player who's never fouled out of a game because he avoids playing physical to keep a record? Keep twisting the facts.

[CavaliersFTW]

"Boston's Russell, at 6ft 9ins, was a consummate competitor, who recognised that Chamberlain lacked the killer instinct."
http://www.theguardian.com/news/1999/oct/14/guardianobituaries2

"He actually admitted that he sometimes lacked motivation on the court and often had to set certain individual goals in order to keep things interesting for him"

Does this sound like someone who is a killer? Or a player who's never fouled out of a game because he avoids playing physical to keep a record? Keep twisting the facts.
Your quoting a journalist :oldlol: how bout I dig up some Skip Bayless quotes about Lebron and rile up the Lebron fans with a "Does this sound like someone who is a killer?"

Journalists push narratives, if there is no story they will make one up or put their own spin on things. How bout these quotes from actual teammates and contemporaries of his?
http://youtu.be/zukRbA3y0qo?t=8m36s

[-23-]

Wilt: Just Like Any Other 7-Foot Black Millionaire Who Lives Next Door: "I

[-23-]

Your quoting a journalist :oldlol:


I had a old SI article where former teammates, and competitors of Wilt also complained about his passive style. I'll try and find to dig it out. And the link quoted Russell, FYI. Read my earlier post from Wilt's OWN autobiography.

[-23-]

Your quoting a journalist :oldlol: how bout I dig up some Skip Bayless quotes about Lebron and rile up the Lebron fans with a "Does this sound like someone who is a killer?"

Journalists push narratives, if there is no story they will make one up or put their own spin on things. How bout these quotes from actual teammates and contemporaries of his?
http://youtu.be/zukRbA3y0qo?t=8m36s

The funny thing is, contemporaries always change their mind about Wilt. In one article, they'll talk about his passive playstyle, and in another, glorify him. This adds inconsistency to Wilt, whereas it's never disputed that someone like Jordan is a killer.

[Psileas]

I love how anti-Wilt guys carefully apply any form of context when Wilt talks about how good he was at something and always point out the exaggerations, but when it comes to quotes like Wilt describing himself as non-competitive, they take everything at face value. This is the same Wilt who Russell also described as wanting to win as much as he wanted, the same Wilt who was called competitive in just about everything he set his mind on, who debated everything, who cheated like mad in cards, who probably gambled, not to mention the NBA records themselves (how can you set so many of them if you're not competitive?) etc.
Yeah, clearly samples of a meek, weak-willed, non-competitive individual...

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt: Just Like Any Other 7-Foot Black Millionaire Who Lives Next Door: "I’m just not naturally competitive and aggressive. I don’t have a killer instinct". (page 187)

Game 7 1970 NBA finals, Willis Reed has one intact thigh, and Wilt scored only 21 pts, and the Lakers lost.
I guarantee your missing the point of this cherry picked quote - what's the chapter about, what else does he say? One quote of him saying he's not competitive is laughable based on all accounts. Wilt says a lot of stupid shit when he wants to prove a point, this is demonstrable with countless examples (20,000, 50 inch vert, do you believe these at face value too?). Outside testimonials describe Wilt mentally as one of the most competitive people to have ever played the game - he refused to lose little discussions or card games on his flights to games let alone the basketball games themselves. He pushed the record book to it's absolute limit and it's still untouchable. A guy who 'isn't competitive' did that!? Yeah ****ing right :oldlol: And I pointed out, he's talked about killer instinct before and the context of it when he's discussed it on other occasions was his willingness to hurt people. He did not want to hurt people - but that is very different than competitiveness.

[CavaliersFTW]

The funny thing is, contemporaries always change their mind about Wilt. In one article, they'll talk about his passive playstyle, and in another, glorify him. This adds inconsistency to Wilt, whereas it's never disputed that someone like Jordan is a killer.
Your probably lumping them all together and failing to absorb who said what, when, where and why that's why - don't try and add an element of ambiguity just because I lay out some examples of guys (former teammates actually) totally dismantling your assertion. The guys who rip Wilt generally fall into two categories: Journalists and Celtics.

I've got plenty more quotes on this topic, a ready supply of testimonial and examples of Wilt's all-time high competitiveness. Shouldn't even be in question to begin with, you don't shatter records and all preconceived notions of stardom if your not insanely competitive :oldlol:

[-23-]

I guarantee your missing the point of this cherry picked quote - what's the chapter about, what else does he say? One quote of him saying he's not competitive is laughable based on all accounts. Wilt says a lot of stupid shit when he wants to prove a point, this is demonstrable with countless examples (20,000, 50 inch vert, do you believe these at face value too?). Outside testimonials describe Wilt mentally as one of the most competitive people to have ever played the game - he refused to lose little discussions or card games on his flights to games let alone the basketball games themselves. He pushed the record book to it's absolute limit and it's still untouchable. A guy who 'isn't competitive' did that!? Yeah ****ing right :oldlol: And I pointed out, he's talked about killer instinct before and the context of it when he's discussed it on other occasions was his willingness to hurt people. He did not want to hurt people - but that is very different than competitiveness.

Missing the point of the quote? Is this the bible? Metaphors and parables? What you need to do is read it at FACE because his quote has no room for interpretation.





Wilt's greatest idiosyncrasy was not fouling out. He had never fouled out of highschool, college or professional game and that was one record he was determined to protect. When he got that fourth foul, his game would change. I don't know how many potential victories he may have cheated his team out of by not really playing after he got into foul trouble.

from Hondo (john havlicek's book)



When it comes down to the closing minutes of a tough game, an important game, he doesn't want the ball, he doesn't want any part of the pressure.

Rick Barry



Wilt was too consumed with records: being the first to lead the league in assists. Or to set a record for field goal percentage. --- Russell only asked one question: 'What can I do to make us win?'
Jerry Lucas

Do any of these quotes make Wilt sound like a killer competitor? You don't get these inconsistencies at ALL with players like Jordan.

[-23-]

Your probably lumping them all together and failing to absorb who said what, when, where and why that's why - don't try and add an element of ambiguity just because I lay out some examples of guys (former teammates actually) totally dismantling your assertion. The guys who rip Wilt generally fall into two categories: Journalists and Celtics.

I've got plenty more quotes on this topic, a ready supply of testimonial and examples of Wilt's all-time high competitiveness. Shouldn't even be in question to begin with, you don't shatter records and all preconceived notions of stardom if your not insanely competitive :oldlol:


Regular season records in a developing league. Why even bring up so-called records when he only has 2 rings?

[millwad]

How about this...




Wilt's scoring and FG%s would have been MUCH higher. Oh, and Chamberlain's post-season FG% were MUCH higher when compared to league eFG%'s.

That is just pure garbage and nonsense. Wilt lost in the playoffs to better teams and so did Hakeem plenty of seasons.

Your bogus about first round exits doesn't make any sense, you're actually owning yourself with that shit. It's actually the other way around, if you beat a team in the playoffs as a leading scorer, it's more likely that you'll have a better stat line in the series you win compared to the other way around.

Just because Wilt shrunk the further he went in the playoffs it doesn't give you the reason to claim such a ludacris thing.

[-23-]

"Wilt wanted to be involved in every half-court play, so he stood there in the middle and all of us would run around him and he tried to pile up his assists. You've got to remember that assists were kept much more strictly back then. There was none of this stuff like today where you can take three dribbles and a head-fake and it counts. You got assists if you caught the pass and made the shot. So that meant Wilt would only pass it to guys who could catch and shoot -- Luke, Billy sometimes, Wali, Hal and me. In my case, he'd try to get me to just go backdoor for a layup, because he didn't trust me to do much else. And he'd never pass it to Chet Walker, because Chet always had to be pump-faking or use a dribble and take away the assist."

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/fran_blinebury/01/08/season-of-giants/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

Stat-whore =/= Competitor. Breaking records is not "competitive" as your just dicking around your own ego at the expense of your teammates. Being a killer is stabbing your opponent when their down, and winning the game.

[funnystuff]

No, 50-pointers. What the OP did was basically take all of Wilt's 60-point games and implant them into games with a uniform pace, which is the average pace of Kobe's era. My suspicion, however, is that Kobe's 50-point games were played at paces faster than the average pace of Kobe's era and therefore need adjustment themselves to match the same uniform pace, which will bring Kobe's "adjusted" 50-pointers down.
Kobe never had his own "era".


In no point in Kobes career was he clearly the best player in the league.



No such thing as Kobes era.

[CavaliersFTW]

Missing the point of the quote? Is this the bible? Metaphors and parables? What you need to do is read it at FACE because his quote has no room for interpretation.





from Hondo (john havlicek's book)




Rick Barry



Do any of these quotes make Wilt sound like a killer competitor? You don't get these inconsistencies at ALL with players like Jordan.
:roll: A BOSTON CELTIC giving some needle to Wilt? Oh my! Did I not call that?


As for Rick Barry:
http://youtu.be/QA8EG8sQIEw

I'm curious, do you have any quotes that AREN'T from journalists or Celtics that support your view?

[-23-]

:roll: A BOSTON CELTIC giving some needle to Wilt? Oh my! Did I not call that?


As for Rick Barry:
http://youtu.be/QA8EG8sQIEw

I'm curious, do you have any quotes that AREN'T from journalists or Celtics that support your view?

Why aren't his competitors opinions valid? Are we to discount Jordan's rivals who claim he's a bloodthirsty competitor? Again, you highlight the inconsistency with Wilt, when Rick Barry flip flops between his views on Wilt. There isn't a solid CONSENSUS that Wilt has a killer instinct. Look at the views on Jordan, vs. Wilt. And I had a quote from Jerry Lucas, who wasn't a Celtic, nor his teammates. Way to cherry pick what I said.

[CavaliersFTW]

Why aren't his competitors opinions valid? Are we to discount Jordan's rivals who claim he's a bloodthirsty competitor? Again, you highlight the inconsistency with Wilt, when Rick Barry flip flops between his views on Wilt. There isn't a solid CONSENSUS that Wilt has a killer instinct. Look at the views on Jordan, vs. Wilt.
Flip flops? I posted 3 quotes that are consistent over the span of 37 years - predictably here comes you with your ambiguity card again now that I post something that dismantled your post - Barry spoke ill of Wilt only in his first book, and acknowledged he was wrong, we've all said stupid shit when we were young. He then proceeds to praise Wilt for the next 37 years so suddenly his quotes are invalid? You were leaning heavily on that first quote of his from his book weren't you :roll:

If you don't understand why Celtics would ALWAYS try to take the stance to speak more highly of Bill Russell than Wilt Chamberlain (often the context where these former Celtic quotes come from - questions related to directly comparing the two) than you don't understand the Celtic culture in Boston or what kind of impression Bill Russell left on his teammates. By taking a jab at Wilt they are more or less trying to make sure Russell is being given due. Like I said, I don't even have a problem with people taking Russell over Wilt, in fact I'd shake their hand for acknowledging how dominant and what a winner Russell was. It's people like you, who cherry pick quotes to try and throw Wilt under the bus and make him seem less a force than he actually was with fictitious journalistic narratives that I expose.

[Owl]

Flip flops? I posted 3 quotes that are consistent over the span of 37 years - predictably here comes you with your ambiguity card again now that I post something that dismantled your post - Barry spoke ill of Wilt only in his first book, and acknowledged he was wrong, we've all said stupid shit when we were young. He then proceeds to praise Wilt for the next 37 years so suddenly his quotes are invalid? You were leaning heavily on that first quote of his from his book weren't you :roll:

If you don't understand why Celtics would ALWAYS try to take the stance to speak more highly of Bill Russell than Wilt Chamberlain (often the context where these former Celtic quotes come from - questions related to directly comparing the two) than you don't understand the Celtic culture in Boston or what kind of impression Bill Russell left on his teammates. By taking a jab at Wilt they are more or less trying to make sure Russell is being given due. Like I said, I don't even have a problem with people taking Russell over Wilt, in fact I'd shake their hand for acknowledging how dominant and what a winner Russell was. It's people like you, who cherry pick quotes to try and throw Wilt under the bus and make him seem less a force than he actually was with fictitious journalistic narratives that I expose.
It's worth noting that those Celtics who actually worked with Wilt (Sharman and K.C. Jones) are notable exceptions exceptions to the Celtic critics.

[-23-]

Flip flops? I posted 3 quotes that are consistent over the span of 37 years - predictably here comes you with your ambiguity card again now that I post something that dismantled your post - Barry spoke ill of Wilt only in his first book, and acknowledged he was wrong, we've all said stupid shit when we were young. He then proceeds to praise Wilt for the next 37 years so suddenly his quotes are invalid? You were leaning heavily on that first quote of his from his book weren't you :roll:

If you don't understand why Celtics would ALWAYS try to take the stance to speak more highly of Bill Russell than Wilt Chamberlain (often the context where these former Celtic quotes come from - questions related to directly comparing the two) than you don't understand the Celtic culture in Boston or what kind of impression Bill Russell left on his teammates. By taking a jab at Wilt they are more or less trying to make sure Russell is being given due. Like I said, I don't even have a problem with people taking Russell over Wilt, in fact I'd shake their hand for acknowledging how dominant and what a winner Russell was. It's people like you, who cherry pick quotes to try and throw Wilt under the bus and make him seem less a force than he actually was with fictitious journalistic narratives that I expose.


How exactly is anything I do, not the same as you? You cherry pick quotes, as do I. In fact we both have our own agendas. Please show how my quotes are "fictitious journalistic narratives". You still fail the address my earlier quote with Wilt's teammates calling him out.

[CavaliersFTW]

It's worth noting that those Celtics who actually worked with Wilt (Sharman and K.C. Jones) are notable exceptions exceptions to the Celtic critics.
And what have they said about Wilt that indicates he 'isn't competitive'? That's what 23 is trying to insist, and back up with quotes.

[CavaliersFTW]

How exactly is anything I do, not the same as you? You cherry pick quotes, as do I. In fact we both have our own agendas. Please show how my quotes are "fictitious journalistic narratives". You still fail the address my earlier quote with Wilt's teammates calling him out.
That anyone would say 'Wilt isn't a competitor/competitive' or w/e, is just a silly journalistic narrative. That is an unbelievable position to actually hold. You can't not be competitive and accomplish the things he accomplished.

Similarly:

'Clutch Gene' is why player A won and not player B

'Wanted it more' is why team A won and not team B

These are all examples of journalism generated opinions in sports. These types of things are fun to talk about if you don't actually understand the sport, but it diminishes the integrity of a sports discussion if you actually do understand the sport.

[-23-]

That anyone would say 'Wilt isn't a competitor/competitive' or w/e, is just a silly journalistic narrative. That is an unbelievable position to actually hold. You can't not be competitive and accomplish the things he accomplished.

Similarly:

'Clutch Gene' is why player A won and not player B

'Wanted it more' is why team A won and not team B

These are all examples of journalism generated opinions in sports. These types of things are fun to talk about if you don't actually understand the sport, but it diminishes the integrity of a sports discussion if you actually do understand the sport.

The quote from Wilt's autobiography is not embellished, or narrative. It's straight from his own mouth. You interpret his quote in a different context than I do.

Buzz words in NBA articles are usually overused, but there's some truth to it. Indeed when discussions about Lebron surfaced in 2011-2012 about his 4th quarter performances were indeed valid criticisms.

[CavaliersFTW]

The quote from Wilt's autobiography is not embellished, or narrative. It's straight from his own mouth. You interpret his quote in a different context than I do.
I don't interpret the quote at all - as I have not read his book, so I do not have any understanding of the context. Never take Wilt quotes at face value, he says a lot of off the wall things when he tries to make a point. Often times the context of what he tries to say is left totally missing when people try to quote him. Such as when he said 20,000 women, he was trying to make a point. Everybody avoided the point and focused on the number. I imagine your doing the exact same thing, have you even read his book? Or did you just come upon that quote? I have not read his book but I will read it soon. I do know that everybody else's opinion of Wilt who doesn't fall under the category of journalist pushing a narrative or a former Celtic defending (and rightfully so) Bill Russell does not speak of Wilt as if he is anything other than insanely competitive by nature. Among the most competitive if not the most competitive person most of these people have met actually. It is literally the polar opposite of the position your trying to take. His competitive drive draws Michael Jordan comparisons for crying out loud.

[Owl]

And what have they said about Wilt that indicates he 'isn't competitive'? That's what 23 is trying to insist, and back up with quotes.
I'm saying they haven't criticised him. Sharman was always gushing about Wilt. Jones said this, which may be inidicative of the Celtics' mentality

[CavaliersFTW]

[QUOTE=Owl]I'm saying they haven't criticised him. Sharman was always gushing about Wilt. Jones said this, which may be inidicative of the Celtics' mentality

[LAZERUSS]

It's also interesting that both Heinsohn and KC Jones admitted that it was BOSTON against Wilt, and not Russell against Wilt. Russell had no chance in battling Chamberlain on his own.

[LAZERUSS]

Why aren't his competitors opinions valid? Are we to discount Jordan's rivals who claim he's a bloodthirsty competitor? Again, you highlight the inconsistency with Wilt, when Rick Barry flip flops between his views on Wilt. There isn't a solid CONSENSUS that Wilt has a killer instinct. Look at the views on Jordan, vs. Wilt. And I had a quote from Jerry Lucas, who wasn't a Celtic, nor his teammates. Way to cherry pick what I said.

Hmmm. Barry must have made those comments before he and his Warriors were blown out by Wilt's Sixers in the '66-67 Finals. And from that time on, as well, anytime Barry faced a Wilt team over the course of a season, they were blown out.

But how about this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSTt_TxoFVo

Seems like he COMPLETELY changed his mind.

"Rick, if you could pick any one player to start a team with, who would you pick?"

"No question, it would have been Wilt Chamberlain."

[LAZERUSS]

Another typical Wilt-bashing comment...


Does this sound like someone who is a killer? Or a player who's never fouled out of a game because he avoids playing physical to keep a record? Keep twisting the facts.

Wilt AVERAGED 2.0 PFs in his regular season career, and was playing 46 mpg in the process. And, in his 160 post-season games, he AVERAGED 2.5 PFs a game, and was playing 47 mpg in the process.

The man was seldom even sniffing foul trouble. And he was blocking 7-8 shots per game, even into last his career, and even in his post-seasons. How does a man challenge 15-20 shots per game, and only commit 2 fouls per game? And how does a man hold KAJ, at his peak, to post-seasons of .481 and .457 shooting, while avoiding fouls?

Or this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain


In the post-season, the Lakers defeated the Chicago Bulls in a sweep,[90] then went on to face the Milwaukee Bucks of young superstar center and regular-season MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (he had changed his name) again. The matchup between Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar was hailed by LIFE magazine as the greatest matchup in all of sports. Chamberlain would help lead the Lakers past Jabbar and the Bucks in 6 games.[90] Particularly, Chamberlain was lauded for his performance in Game 6, which the Lakers won 104–100 after trailing by 10 points in the fourth quarter: he scored 24 points and 22 rebounds, played all 48 minutes and outsprinted the younger Bucks center on several late Lakers fast breaks.[91] Jerry West called it "the greatest ball-busting performance I have ever seen."[91] Chamberlain performed so well in the series that TIME magazine stated, "In the N.B.A.'s western division title series with Milwaukee, he (Chamberlain) decisively outplayed basketball's newest giant superstar, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, eleven years his junior."[92]

In the 1972 NBA Finals, the Lakers again met the New York Knicks; the Knicks were shorthanded after losing Willis Reed to injury, and so, undersized 6'8" Jerry Lucas had the task to defend against the 7'1" Chamberlain.[93] However, prolific outside shooter Lucas helped New York to win Game 1, hitting 9 of his 11 shots in the first half alone; in Game 2, which the Lakers won 106–92, Chamberlain put Lucas into foul trouble, and the Knicks lost defensive power forward Dave DeBusschere to injury.[93] In Game 3, Chamberlain scored 26 points and grabbed 20 rebounds for another Lakers win, and in a fiercely battled Game 4, the Lakers center was playing with five fouls late in the game. Having never fouled out in his career – a feat that he was very proud of – he played aggressive defense despite the risk of fouling out, and blocked two of Lucas' shots in overtime, proving those wrong who said he only played for his own stats; he ended scoring a game-high 27 points.[93] But in that game, he had fallen on his right hand, and was said to have "sprained" it; it was actually broken. For Game 5, Chamberlain's hands were packed into thick pads normally destined for defensive linesmen in American Football; he was offered a painkilling shot, but refused because he feared he would lose his shooting touch if his hands became numb.[93] In Game 5, Chamberlain recorded 24 points, 29 rebounds, 8 assists and 8 blocked shots. (While blocked shots were not an official NBA stat at that time, announcer Keith Jackson counted the blocks during the broadcast.[citation needed]) Chamberlain's outstanding all-around performance helped the Lakers win their first championship in Los Angeles with a decisive 114–100 win.[93] Chamberlain was named Finals MVP,[43] and was admired for dominating the Knicks in Game 5 while playing injured.[93]

Oh, and read the last part of the above, as well. Chamberlain not only PLAYED in the clinching game five win with a BROKEN WRIST, he DOMINATED it. Ask Kareem about playing with a broken wrist (he missed chunks of two separate seasons with broken hands.)

[LAZERUSS]

Put those numbers into context. Post season average FG% for the league in those seasons (67' .424% which is ABOVE the league, and .439 in 72' which ill give you) The numbers you put up look shocking in today's league (which is a testament to how it evolved), but back in the 60's, and early 70's a low 40% fg is not uncommon.

Ah, but then you didn't acknowledge the REST of Wilt's "help" in his career, did you?

One more time...


'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field. Lose gaeme seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of Finals.

Find me the seasons in which Hakeem, Kareem, or MJ won titles with their teammates eFG%'s as low as those. My god, in Hakeem's '95 Finals, his teammates had a higher eFG% and a much higher TS% than he did. All while Shaq was just pounding him into the ground. If it had not been for his teammates overwhelming Shaq's, Shaq would now have five rings.

[Marchesk]

Haha, I swear, you Wilt-fans are the most insecure posters around. I mention a fact about Wilt and you try to bash Hakeem.

Hey, I like Hakeem and rooted for him when he played. You're the one who came into my thread and decided to shit on it. I wasn't even talking about Hakeem.

[Psileas]

Kobe never had his own "era".


In no point in Kobes career was he clearly the best player in the league.



No such thing as Kobes era.

Completely irrelevant with what I meant. Kobe era=era when Kobe played. It could be anyone, be it Wilt, Kobe or Potapenko.

[Deuce Bigalow]

What's the average for the playoffs?

[millwad]

Hey, I like Hakeem and rooted for him when he played. You're the one who came into my thread and decided to shit on it. I wasn't even talking about Hakeem.

Haha, read the comment above and see if it makes any sense at all. I wrote about the fact that Wilt couldn't score no where close to his regular season average and highs and your reply was to mention Hakeem. No shit you weren't talking about Hakeem, I wasn't either. You mentioned him because you got butthurt.