Lettuce be real Magic is only PG in history who played at higher level than CP3

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Its time to be real tea. Magic had stacked casts every year of his career too. Can you imagine CP with that amount of help instead of low IQ/'unreliable teammates:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Jameerthefear]

lolno

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

lolno
Nikka u started watching basketball last year:biggums:
Fck u know bout PGs:biggums:

[ABfor3]

JKidd,Payton, Stockton, Magic, penny hardaway (before injuries) , Big O, Walt Frazier, Steve Nash are all better IMO.

[Jameerthefear]

Nikka u started watching basketball last year:biggums:
Fck u know bout PGs:biggums:
lol? i've been watching basketball for a lot more than a year. hell i've been on this forum for close to 3 now...

[Connor B]

If someone suggests that CP3 is one of the best of all time one more time I think I ma shoot myself.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

JKidd,Payton, Stockton, Magic, penny hardaway (before injuries) , Big O, Walt Frazier, Steve Nash are all better IMO.
Kidd:biggums: :biggums:
Payton, Stockton, Frazier:biggums: :biggums:
Nash is close but he an ass defender while CP3 is great for PG defense so NAsh is out too

I never saw Oscar play and neither did u:coleman:

[Lebron23]

http://static0.therichestimages.com/wp-content/uploads/Isiah-Thomas2.jpg

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

http://static0.therichestimages.com/wp-content/uploads/Isiah-Thomas2.jpg

Isiah played with stacked teammates lets be real. What was he doing before he got Rodman, Laimbeer, Dumars, Salley, Aguire u kidding me:biggums: :biggums:

U know that when Bad Boys was winning chips Isiah was losing All NBA selections to Mark Price and Dale Ellis:biggums: Isiah is one of most overrated players ever the Pistons defense and rebounding won them titles it was team effort

[moe94]

JKidd,Payton, Stockton, Magic, penny hardaway (before injuries) , Big O, Walt Frazier, Steve Nash are all better IMO.
Particularly laughed at Nash.

[Young X]

I agree.

[ABfor3]

Kidd:biggums: :biggums:
Payton, Stockton, Frazier:biggums: :biggums:
Nash is close but he an ass defender while CP3 is great for PG defense so NAsh is out too

I never saw Oscar play and neither did u:coleman:
Kidd is one of the best point guards in history, had the size of a 2 which gave him the vision unlike any other point guard. The way he controlled the game was better than CP3..Gary Payton was a much better defender than Paul and also led his team to the finals. John Stockton had the help from playing with one of the greatest PFs Karl Malone but the dude was gritty,hit big shots and played tough d..not to mention he's the all time leader in assists. Paul is better than Nash in defense but Nash was a lights out shooter, better passer and was more consistent. You're right about Big O but averaging a triple double for a season speaks for itself.

[ABfor3]

http://static0.therichestimages.com/wp-content/uploads/Isiah-Thomas2.jpg
Completely forgot about Zeke, I would take Zeke over CP3 anyday

[1987_Lakers]

I actually agree with the OP. People actually think Stockton was better than CP3? LMAO. GTFO.

I would also take CP3 over Zeke in a heartbeat, CP3 has more consistent jumper and is a better defender.

[1987_Lakers]

Kidd:biggums: :biggums:
Payton, Stockton, Frazier:biggums: :biggums:
Nash is close but he an ass defender while CP3 is great for PG defense so NAsh is out too

I never saw Oscar play and neither did u:coleman:

This guy gets it.

[ABfor3]

This guy gets it.
Please explain how you think CP3 is better than any of the guys I've listed.

[ABfor3]

CP3 has taken his teams no where, he posts up empty stats. When he actually wins a chip and not get bounced after the 1st round then he will be considered ranked over the guys I've mentioned.

[Marchesk]

CP3 has no case over Oscar. Get real. He's universally considered top 15 all-time, and was a GOAT candidate at one point. As for watching him play, there are still plenty of people alive today who saw him play. Just go look up what they had to say about him, or where they rank him all-time.

[1987_Lakers]

I don't think CP3 will ever reach Oscar in terms of greatness, but we have never seen him play. 1977-present the only PG that has performed at a higher level than CP3 is Magic. No Question.

Stockton? The guy was never considered elite, be real. CP3 has been a top 5 player countless years. To even compare peak Stockton to peak Paul is a travesty.

Payton & Kidd? Payton has defense over CP3, but let's not ignore that CP3 is a top defender from his position and he is miles better offensively. Kidd could run an offense at an elite level, but the guy was an inefficient scorer and he took 2 teams to the Finals when the East was a complete joke.

Nash? Both comparable offensively, you can even make a case that Nash was better on that end, but CP3 is 100x the defender.

Penny Hardaway? Just stop it.

Isiah? Like I said in my previous post I'll take CP3 because of his jumper and defense.

You say CP3 has taken teams no where? Empty stats? Now I know you're a retard. He took a New Orleans team with nothing but role players to 56 wins, he took the Clippers from a lottery team to a top team in the West.

[ABfor3]

I don't think CP3 will ever reach Oscar in terms of greatness, but we have never seen him play. 1977-present the only PG that has performed at a higher level than CP3 is Magic. No Question.

Stockton? The guy was never considered elite, be real. CP3 has been a top 5 player countless years. To even compare peak Stockton to peak Paul is a travesty.

Payton & Kidd? Payton has defense over CP3, but let's not ignore that CP3 is a top defender from his position and he is miles better offensively. Kidd could run an offense at an elite level, but the guy was an inefficient scorer and he took 2 teams to the Finals when the East was a complete joke.

Nash? Both comparable offensively, you can even make a case that Nash was better on that end, but CP3 is 100x the defender.

Penny Hardaway? Just stop it.

Isiah? Like I said in my previous post I'll take CP3 because of his jumper and defense.

You say CP3 has taken teams no where? Empty stats? Now I know you're a retard. He took a New Orleans team with nothing but role players to 56 wins, he took the Clippers from a lottery team to a top team in the West.
:roll: :roll: like I stated it was IMO, 56 wins and no chip? Low seed to high seed but still no chip in LA? Cp3 miles ahead of Payton in what? Dribbling probably, do you forget Payton once averaged 24 6re and 8apg. He could create his own shot, u must of never seen the Glove play, and he's the best defensive point ever. Jkidd was a triple double threat every night, he was the closest thing we've seen to Magic at the point, pass, rebound and shoot, a true floor general.
He has 100+ triple doubles only behind magic and big O all time. Have you seen Penny Hardaway play? I admit injuries detailed his career but before injuries, this guy was always being labeled the next Jordan and was apart of one of the best duos in the league along with shaq before he played for la. Penny was electric, at times a shutdown defender. And a great scorer. You're the retard if anything.

[BlackVVaves]

^^ Nash was better offensively.

C'mon, let's not let this shell of Steve cause us to forget what Nash was doing offensively during his peak. We're talking friggin 50%/47%/90% on 18 points per game stringing along 13 assists on top of that. Guy was so much of a ****ing wildcard because you literally didn't know how to best defend him.

Nash was Steph Curry but with less range (kid Curry can shoot near the half court line like its a 25 footer) and less handles, and infinite more savvy and IQ as a veteran and a greater playmaker for his team than Curry is. His orchestration of an offense was second only to Magic during his peak. I don't think he necessarily deserved the MVPs in 05 and 06, but at the same time I think his play during that stretch ... particularly with his team being a Top 3 team in the conference year in and year out ... was deserving of a MVP allocade to commemorate his unworldly play.

His defense has always been his Achilles heel, and man has he absolutely sucked on man defense throughout his career. And yes, Paul has him there, as well as almost all the top point guards in history. But offensively? Peak Nash is untouched by most point guards.

[Pacquiao]

CP3 is the most overrated player ever. He'll get his ass kicked by Memphis again.

There has beeen plenty of threads about CP3 and most of us already agreed that CP3 is one of the most overrated player ever.

[ABfor3]

^^ Nash was better offensively.

C'mon, let's not let this shell of Steve cause us to forget what Nash was doing offensively during his peak. We're talking friggin 50%/47%/90% on 18 points per game stringing along 13 assists on top of that. Guy was so much of a ****ing wildcard because you literally didn't know how to best defend him.

Nash was Steph Curry but with less range (kid Curry can shoot near the half court line like its a 25 footer) and less handles, and infinite more savvy and IQ as a veteran and a greater playmaker for his team than Curry is. His orchestration of an offense was second only to Magic during his peak. I don't think he necessarily deserved the MVPs in 05 and 06, but at the same time I think his play during that stretch ... particularly with his team being a Top 3 team in the conference year in and year out ... was deserving of a MVP allocate to commemorate his unworldly play.

His defense has always been his Achilles heel, and man has he absolutely sucked on man defense throughout his career. And yes, Paul has him there, as well as almost all the top point guards in history. But offensively? Peak Nash is untouched by most point guards.
Exactly , I thought it was pretty obvious that Nash was the better offensive player ..

[1987_Lakers]

^^ Nash was better offensively.

C'mon, let's not let this shell of Steve cause us to forget what Nash was doing offensively during his peak. We're talking friggin 50%/47%/90% on 18 points per game stringing along 13 assists on top of that. Guy was so much of a ****ing wildcard because you literally didn't know how to best defend him.

Nash was Steph Curry but with less range (kid Curry can shoot near the half court line like its a 25 footer) and less handles, and infinite more savvy and IQ as a veteran and a greater playmaker for his team than Curry is. His orchestration of an offense was second only to Magic during his peak. I don't think he necessarily deserved the MVPs in 05 and 06, but at the same time I think his play during that stretch ... particularly with his team being a Top 3 team in the conference year in and year out ... was deserving of a MVP allocade to commemorate his unworldly play.

His defense has always been his Achilles heel, and man has he absolutely sucked on man defense throughout his career. And yes, Paul has him there, as well as almost all the top point guards in history. But offensively? Peak Nash is untouched by most point guards.

You are pretty much repeating what I just said, I said you can make a good case Nash was better on offense, but Cp3 kills Nash defensively and that is the reason why I choose him. Useless post.

[LAZERUSS]

Oscar was averaging 30-10-10 seasons, in years in which assists were harder to come by (and winning apg titles by staggering margins), and in seasons in which he was only taking 22 FGAs per game. So, his scoring would hardly drop at all, (and likely he would have adapted to the 3pt line, and perhaps scored more.) His rebounding numbers would have dropped in this era, down to around 7-8 rpg, but a 30-8-10 stat-line would not be unrealistic in today's NBA.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Yeah I would say Magic is the only one who has been CLEARLY better (post Oscar). He's in that next group with: Stockton, Nash, Kidd, Thomas.

[Alan Ogg]

CP3 is one of the best point guards ever, but he won't get the respect until he does something meaningful in the post season. He's only played in 40 playoff games in his career!! Dude's been in the league 9 years.

I love CP3, and yeah regular season I'd probably put him up there in the top 5 area, definitely behind Magic and Oscar. But all the others mentioned had quite a bit of playoff success. Even Tony Parker has a way better legacy to this point.

[Dunaprenti]

Dribbling probably, do you forget Payton once averaged 24 6re and 8apg. He could create his own shot, u must of never seen the Glove play, and he's the best defensive point ever. Jkidd was a triple double threat every night, he was the closest thing we've seen to Magic at the point, pass, rebound and shoot, a true floor general.
Exactly what I was going to say.
People argued wether Chris Paul or Deron is the best guard no more than two years ago. Now its obvious whos better, but I wouldn't say that Paul has elevated his game that much and I would never put Deron in conversation with all time greats.
Paul is a fantastic playmaker with great handles. He is not "playoff scorer" and his D is overrated (he gambles too much for my liking).
In what way is he better than Kevin Johnson?

[East_Stone_Ya]

http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/vp/image/1364/99/1364992118471.jpg

[Nick Young]

Lettuce be real, Tony Parker is already playing at a higher level then CP3 for his whole career and has the rings and finals MVP to show for it.

[sportjames23]

CP3 is one of my favorite players in the game today, but I'm taking Magic, Isaiah, Stockton, Payton, Kidd and Nash over him. Hell, I might take Mark Price, Kevin Johnson and Tim Hardaway over him ,too.

[moe94]

Hell, I might take Mark Price, Kevin Johnson and Tim Hardaway over him ,too.
You don't like this era. You're a Jordan baby to the fullest. You'd take Price? Price?

[DMAVS41]

Kidd:biggums: :biggums:
Payton, Stockton, Frazier:biggums: :biggums:
Nash is close but he an ass defender while CP3 is great for PG defense so NAsh is out too

I never saw Oscar play and neither did u:coleman:

Yes, Kidd. For sure. Kidd in his prime was easily as good as current CP3. Kidd was dragging average teams to the finals back to back years dominating defensively and controlling games offensively.

Paul puts up great numbers, and I think he's an all time great pg, but he's done nothing to date to separate himself from prime Kidd...

[Thechosen1]

cp3 is the peyton manning of basketball....its all about the eye test..yea he doesnt have the rings, but your eyes will tell you how good the guy is at the sport....he just needs the postseason success to solidify it...IMO if he gets a ring or 2 in my opinion he is the best point guard ever....yea even over magic...I just never ever see how it makes sense to give someone with a physical advantage the edge over someone who doesnt have one and still performs at a high level...

[K Xerxes]

He has a case OP, and it's a shame we never see 08-09 CP3 keep going before that injury. The way he combined his athleticism with running the offense isn't something I've seen too often before. People say he hasn't done much in the playoffs, but the he was unreal with the Hornets, dragging his garbage (yes, it was garbage) team.

He's getting back to that level right now and is clearly still capable of carrying his team on his shoulders when necessary, especially when it gets to crunch time.

But, aside from Magic, I'd probably take peak Kidd over him. Not sure about peak Isiah or pre injury Penny (who was UNREAL). I wouldn't take Nash, Stockton or Payton over Paul though.

[pauk]

Isiah Thomas
John Stockton
Nate Archibald
Magic Johnson
Penny Hardaway
Tony Parker
Tim Hardaway
Dave Bing
Allen Iverson
Walt Frazier
Steve Nash
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Sidney Moncrief
Oscar Robertson
Bob Cousy

[Young X]

Every PG mentioned in this thread besides Magic and Oscar weren't the all around player Paul is. Paul can score, elite playmaker, great rebounder for a PG, solid defender at worst, extremely efficient, and better statistically/more productive than all of them. All the others have at least one major deficiency in their games, Paul doesn't and he's a much more well rounded and more productive player than them.

[Harison]

Oscar, Isiah and Stockton were clear cut better players than CP3. I would probably add Payton, Kidd and Nash too, these are borderline better though.

[Legends66NBA7]

Its time to be real tea. Magic had stacked casts every year of his career too. Can you imagine CP with that amount of help instead of low IQ/'unreliable teammates:eek: :eek: :eek:

I don't even know what the point is by mentioning Magic's teammates. Basically every PG in NBA history would have more success (in comparison to their own careers) if they had his teammates.

Whether they would all repeat the same success ? Probably not.

[DMAVS41]

Every PG mentioned in this thread besides Magic and Oscar weren't the all around player Paul is. Paul can score, elite playmaker, great rebounder for a PG, solid defender at worst, extremely efficient, and better statistically/more productive than all of them. All the others have at least one major deficiency in their games, Paul doesn't and he's a much more well rounded and more productive player than them.

Never made it out of 2nd round...and he's had some damn good teams. Best teams in the league? Nah, but teams good enough to at least get out of the 2nd round if you want to claim the dude is the clear 2nd best pg ever.

[moe94]

Oscar, Isiah and Stockton were clear cut better players than CP3. I would probably add Payton, Kidd and Nash too, these are borderline better though.
Paul was statistically better than Isiah and Isiah won with stacked teams. Present your argument as to how he's a better individual player, let alone "clear cut".

[sportjames23]

You don't like this era. You're a Jordan baby to the fullest. You'd take Price? Price?


You ever see Price play? No? Then sit your ass down.

[Young X]

Never made it out of 2nd round...and he's had some damn good teams. Best teams in the league? Nah, but teams good enough to at least get out of the 2nd round if you want to claim the dude is the clear 2nd best pg ever.He's had good teams in the regular season. His support in the playoffs is TRASH, David West in 08 is the best player he's played with.

WTF do team accomplishments have to do with how well he PLAYS ON THE COURT? If you replaced West/Griffin with Duncan would that make Paul better? No. Dumb logic.

[moe94]

You ever see Price play? No? Then sit your ass down.
Look at that, no real response. More inane BS from an era baby. Go find a LeBron thread to infuse with your sublime one liners.

[Legends66NBA7]

he just needs the postseason success to solidify it...IMO if he gets a ring or 2 in my opinion he is the best point guard ever....yea even over magic...

Yeah... Paul would have do something amazing to ever solidify that and he would also have to up against players better than him that are still around and upcoming.

To get over Magic, he would need some amazing playoff and finals moments, which I don't see happening. Let's see him take his teams to the Conference Finals first.

[Young X]

So CP is overrated because he couldn't beat:

56 win defending champ Spurs
54 win Nuggets
58 win defending champ Lakers
62 win Spurs
56 win Grizzlies

by himself with no help on historically terrible franchises in the western conference.

Stupid idiots.

[DMAVS41]

So CP is overrated because he couldn't beat:

56 win defending champ Spurs
54 win Nuggets
58 win defending champ Lakers
62 win Spurs
56 win Grizzlies

by himself with no help on historically terrible franchises in the western conference.

Stupid idiots.

Actually...YES!

CP3 is great...all time great. But you are calling him the clear cut 2nd best pg ever. So not ever getting out of the 2nd round is going to hurt him. He's had some solid teams...specifically the 08 team in which many believe was his peak.

So yes, he's over-rated by you hugely if you think the 2nd best pg ever playing on some good teams...and a very good team at his supposed peak...shouldn't be expected to get out of the 2nd round.

And on that team...he had a lackluster game 7 performance against the Spurs.

[Young X]

Actually...YES!

CP3 is great...all time great. But you are calling him the clear cut 2nd best pg ever. So not ever getting out of the 2nd round is going to hurt him. He's had some solid teams...specifically the 08 team in which many believe was his peak.

So yes, he's over-rated by you hugely if you think the 2nd best pg ever playing on some good teams...and a very good team at his supposed peak...shouldn't be expected to get out of the 2nd round.

And on that team...he had a lackluster game 7 performance against the Spurs.No, I said Oscar and Magic were the only PG's with better all round ability/productivity. Which is true.

Solid teams don't win sh!t in the west. You need good/great teams to go far in the west - which Paul hasn't had yet in his career. You don't get past Duncan/Kobe led teams without a good supporting cast. Every team Paul has lost to was better than his team.

He had 18/14/8 in that game. He didn't have his greatest game, but there are players better than CP with worse closeout games that I bet you still rank over him. Besides, you can't boil down an entire season of of great play to just one game.

[longtime lurker]

Lol this thread gets out up every single, year CP3 proceeds to do jack shit in the playoffs. Isiah, Payton, Stockton, Oscar!(you wanna talk about stats) at just as high or higher level than CP3. Then you have Kidd and Nash who have a strong case

[Young X]

Lol this thread gets out up every single, year CP3 proceeds to do jack shit in the playoffs. Isiah, Payton, Stockton, Oscar!(you wanna talk about stats) at just as high or higher level than CP3. Then you have Kidd and Nash who have a strong caseI've seen your posts on this topic before and you always ignore Paul's actual play in the playoffs and tie his teams performance to his play to make it seem like he's not a good playoff performer. Cool.

...bet you didn't know that Oscar took 10 years to get past the 2nd round and the only reason is because he teamed up with Kareem. You probably didn't know that he missed the playoffs twice in his prime. A player greater than Paul had worse team success in the playoffs than him, is he a mediocre playoff performer too?

[DMAVS41]

No, I said Oscar and Magic were the only PG's with better all round ability/productivity. Which is true.

Solid teams don't win sh!t in the west. You need good/great teams to go far in the west - which Paul hasn't had yet in his career. You don't get past Duncan/Kobe led teams without a good supporting cast. Every team Paul has lost to was better than his team.

He had 18/14/8 in that game. He didn't have his greatest game, but there are players better than CP with worse closeout games that I bet you still rank over him. Besides, you can't boil down an entire season of of great play to just one game.

So where do you rank Paul overall in terms of all time pg's? Because obviously he's more well rounded than Kidd, but I think peak Kidd was actually slightly better.

I thought you were saying he was the 2nd best pg ever. If not, then I have no issue.

But it depends on how people rate him. I wouldn't hold his playoff results against him unless people start claiming he's clearly better than modern guys like Stockton, Kidd, and to a guy like Payton as well. I'm really not sure CP3 is a ton better than a guy like Westbrook. If you want to claim WB isn't a pg...that's a different story, but just as players...Paul might be slightly better overall. And WB probably hasn't hit his true prime yet either.

[moe94]

08 Paul is much much better than Westbrook ever showed to be. He will never reach that level.

[Young X]

So where do you rank Paul overall in terms of all time pg's? Because obviously he's more well rounded than Kidd, but I think peak Kidd was actually slightly better.

I thought you were saying he was the 2nd best pg ever. If not, then I have no issue.Career wise top 10. Peak wise top 5.


But it depends on how people rate him. I wouldn't hold his playoff results against him unless people start claiming he's clearly better than modern guys like Stockton, Kidd, and to a guy like Payton as well. I'm really not sure CP3 is a ton better than a guy like Westbrook. If you want to claim WB isn't a pg...that's a different story, but just as players...Paul might be slightly better overall. And WB probably hasn't hit his true prime yet either.How do you rank players ability on the court?

Team success?
Accolades?
On court production?

If you mainly go by he does for his teams on the court like I do than he's definitely top 5. You probably don't though.

[DMAVS41]

Career wise top 10. Peak wise top 5.

How do you rank players ability on the court?

Team success?
Accolades?
On court production?

If you mainly go by he does for his teams on the court like I do than he's definitely top 5. You probably don't though.

I rank them using everything. Mainly impact though. So why is Paul better than prime Kidd or Stockton? I just don't think he's done anything to separate himself from those guys.

He's like somewhere in the top 10 range at pg to me. But I need to see him carry his team to victory. Come through huge in a game 7...etc. You can't just shrug off stuff like that when it's all we have to go off of. The best team he's had...at his peak...played a close game 7...and he didn't dominate. In fact, he was just average. They were down 3 with the ball with just over 1 minute to go. You want to reach legendary status? You make the plays to win that game. And if you don't...you do it at some other point in your career.

Right now the picture is just too incomplete to accurately place him in history. So I can only go off what we have seen...and to date he just hasn't done anything to separate himself from that group of the 10 or so best pg's ever.

[Young X]

I rank them using everything. Mainly impact though. So why is Paul better than prime Kidd or Stockton? I just don't think he's done anything to separate himself from those guys.

He's like somewhere in the top 10 range at pg to me. But I need to see him carry his team to victory. Come through huge in a game 7...etc. You can't just shrug off stuff like that when it's all we have to go off of. The best team he's had...at his peak...played a close game 7...and he didn't dominate. In fact, he was just average. They were down 3 with the ball with just over 1 minute to go. You want to reach legendary status? You make the plays to win that game. And if you don't...you do it at some other point in your career.

Right now the picture is just too incomplete to accurately place him in history. So I can only go off what we have seen...and to date he just hasn't done anything to separate himself from that group of the 10 or so best pg's ever.2 questions:

Considering the terrible way Bron closed out the 10 series vs the Celtics in the 2nd round, if that was his best season where would you rank it?

Same thing with KD last season, he was terrible in the last 3 games of the series against Memphis in the 2nd round (way worse than Paul in 08). Where would you rank it?

[DMAVS41]

2 questions:

Considering the terrible way Bron closed out the 10 series vs the Celtics in the 2nd round, if that was his best season where would you rank it?

Same thing with KD last season, he was terrible in the last 3 games of the series against Memphis in the 2nd round (way worse than Paul in 08). Where would you rank it?

Where would I rank it in the history of NBA seasons? I just have no idea how to do that without spending way too much time...

Lebron was clearly a better player in 10 than Paul has ever been in my opinion...so maybe that helps. Not sure.

[BlackVVaves]

You are pretty much repeating what I just said, I said you can make a good case Nash was better on offense, but Cp3 kills Nash defensively and that is the reason why I choose him. Useless post.

Useless, right. You claimed that Nash was possibly, maybe arguably, a better offensive player than CP3. I refuted that indecision, and highlighted exactly why there is no case for CP3 being as proficient, let alone better, than Nash was on offensive. Then, you return, wrapped in your stubborn satire, and once again deliver to us "you can make a good case," for Nash, while somehow carrying on as if that statement correlates with my opinion that Nash was most certainly was a more effective offensive talent than CP3 in his prime.

Useless. Lol, look in the mirror mate.

[Young X]

Where would I rank it in the history of NBA seasons? I just have no idea how to do that without spending way too much time...

Lebron was clearly a better player in 10 than Paul has ever been in my opinion...so maybe that helps. Not sure.I brought up Lebron because I wanted to see if his terrible closeout of the Celtics affected your opinion of him like it did for your opinion on Paul.

Durant basically had an identical season to Paul's 08 season last season. Exact same production, same team success, both 2nd in MVP, 2nd best in league (arguably for Paul), All NBA 1st, both lost in 2nd round. The only difference was Paul's Spurs series is far better than KD's Grizzlies series.

2 players recognized as better than Paul lost in the 2nd round with worse performances than Paul in some of their top seasons. What does that tell you?

Useless, right. You claimed that Nash was possibly, maybe arguably, a better offensive player than CP3. I refuted that indecision, and highlighted exactly why there is no case for CP3 being as proficient, let alone better, than Nash was on offensive.That's not true. Paul scores more, gets the same amount of assists with a much, much lower turnover rate, better penetrator, ballhandler, more efficient overall. There's definitely a case. Then add the much better defense/rebounding and Paul has a better case for being better than vice versa.

[DMAVS41]

I brought up Lebron because I wanted to see if his terrible closeout of the Celtics affected your opinion of him like it did for your opinion on Paul.

Durant basically had an identical season to Paul's 08 season last season. Exact same production, same team success, both 2nd in MVP, 2nd best in league (arguably for Paul), All NBA 1st, both lost in 2nd round. The only difference was Paul's Spurs series is far better than KD's Grizzlies series.

2 players recognized as better than Paul lost in the 2nd round with worse performances than Paul in some of their top seasons. What does that tell you?
That's not true. Paul scores more, gets the same amount of assists with a much, much lower turnover rate, better penetrator, ballhandler, more efficient overall. There's definitely a case. Then add the much better defense/rebounding and Paul has a better case for being better than vice versa.

I really don't know what you are getting at. Of course it impacted my view of Lebron in 2010...just like 2011 did.

With Durant...I don't think it's quite the same as the Thunder without WB. But again...Durant has already done shit.

Paul hasn't done anything from a historical perspective. Hasn't made the finals, hasn't made the WCF, hasn't won a MVP, hasn't played at the level Lebron or Durant has at their peaks imo.

So I really don't know the point...you can't shrug all that stuff off because Paul hasn't done anything yet. When he does...or if he does...it will be different.

It's hard to place a guy like Paul in the top 5 pg's of all time with him never getting out of the 2nd round. It just is...he puts up great stats and I think he's great, but so are other guys.

I'm watching Paul in his prime right now. Like I said above...is he clearly better than Westbrook? In my opinion...no.

[inclinerator]

ive watched nash and kidd, id have to say cp3 impresses me way more. It seems like he can get anything he wants at anytime

[DMAVS41]

ive watched nash and kidd, id have to say cp3 impresses me way more. It seems like he can get anything he wants at anytime

But getting anywhere a player wants isn't what made Kidd so great. I don't put Nash in that Kidd/CP3 range anyway....so I would also take CP3.

But I don't think CP3 is any better than prime Kidd. In fact, I would take Kidd slightly over CP3 to date.

[Young X]

I really don't know what you are getting at. Of course it impacted my view of Lebron in 2010...just like 2011 did.

With Durant...I don't think it's quite the same as the Thunder without WB. But again...Durant has already done shit.

Paul hasn't done anything from a historical perspective. Hasn't made the finals, hasn't made the WCF, hasn't won a MVP, hasn't played at the level Lebron or Durant has at their peaks imo.There's absolutely nothing objective that points towards Paul's 08 season not being on the level of Durant's 13 season.


So I really don't know the point...you can't shrug all that stuff off because Paul hasn't done anything yet. When he does...or if he does...it will be different.

It's hard to place a guy like Paul in the top 5 pg's of all time with him never getting out of the 2nd round. It just is...How has Paul not done anything? He's led the league in assists twice (possibly 3x this season), led the league in steals 5 times, All NBA 1st 3 times, All NBA D twice, 3rd all time in APG behind only Magic and Stockton in the regular season AND postseason, 6th all time in PER in the RS and PS also, one of the most unbelievable statistical seasons for a guard in league history. That's not doing anything?

[1987_Lakers]

Paul so far this season is averaging 20 ppg | 11.5 apg | 4.5 RPG | 2.5 SPG. Name 1 point guard in the last 20 years that was able to put up those numbers.

[Go Getter]

Isiah played with stacked teammates lets be real. What was he doing before he got Rodman, Laimbeer, Dumars, Salley, Aguire u kidding me:biggums: :biggums:

U know that when Bad Boys was winning chips Isiah was losing All NBA selections to Mark Price and Dale Ellis:biggums: Isiah is one of most overrated players ever the Pistons defense and rebounding won them titles it was team effort
Negged.

[DMAVS41]

There's absolutely nothing objective that points towards Paul's 08 season not being on the level of Durant's 13 season.

How has Paul not done anything? He's led the league in assists twice (possibly 3x this season), led the league in steals 5 times, All NBA 1st 3 times, All NBA D twice, 3rd all time in APG behind only Magic and Stockton in the regular season AND postseason, 6th all time in PER in the RS and PS also, one of the most unbelievable statistical seasons for a guard in league history. That's not doing anything?

Lets clear this up.

That is why I said...in my opinion.

Now, what you list is why Paul is great. I don't know what you are talking about honestly. You have Paul as only a top 10 guard of all time...so obviously you think something is missing. Might I ask what?

When I said..."not done anything"...I was talking about things that take you from a great player to a legend. Things like iconic playoff wins/moments. Carrying teams as the underdog. Winning the MVP. Winning the title...etc.

Nobody disputes the brilliance of Paul or his great play and stats.

I'm asking why you, a clearly huge Paul fan, doesn't put him in the top 5 pg's of all time. As you earlier listed him in the top 10.

Like...I don't see what you are disputing. We seem to both rank him similarly all time.

So, if you could, make your point...

[steve]

Paul so far this season is averaging 20 ppg | 11.5 apg | 4.5 RPG | 2.5 SPG. Name 1 point guard in the last 20 years that was able to put up those numbers.

When we talk in basic numbers, only 4 players in NBA history have averaged for their careers at least 18/8: Robertson, Isiah, Magic, and Paul. If Paul keeps up this season (which could likely be his third 20/10 season), he'll be the only player along with Magic to average at least 18/10 for their careers. It gets even more elite when we account for turnovers (which precludes Robertson) because Paul averages less than 3 turnovers a game for his career. We usually let high turnovers pass when it comes to point guards (both Isiah and Magic turned the ball over a lot) but Paul is takes care of the ball unlike any other high scoring/high assist point guard in history (we can even cast aside "high scoring" because there's no player in NBA history with an assist% of over 40% and a turnover% of under 15%). When a player starts crafting categories all by himself over 9 years of play, he's reached pretty elite status.

[Young X]

Lets clear this up.

That is why I said...in my opinion.

Now, what you list is why Paul is great. I don't know what you are talking about honestly. You have Paul as only a top 10 guard of all time...so obviously you think something is missing. Might I ask what?You're confusing ability and career, Paul to me is top 10 in terms of career - he's only played 7 full seasons and he needs more team success and longevity to be recognized as greater just like everybody else. I never said otherwise even though I slightly disagree with it.

What I said was Paul was just as good if not better than any point not named Magic or Oscar based on what he does to help his teams on the court individually. Team success is almost irrelevant to me in this area because he's not playing the other team by himself, his teammates have to contribute also and they've performed terribly in the postseason so far compared to the brutal competition he's faced. By doing this, you're automatically penalizing players who play on terrible franchises.

When I said..."not done anything"...I was talking about things that take you from a great player to a legend. Things like iconic playoff wins/moments. Carrying teams as the underdog. Winning the MVP. Winning the title...etc.Besides Magic, what PG has done all of this? And besides Magic and Oscar which PG's won MVP's or titles that Paul couldn't have?

[DMAVS41]

You're confusing ability and career, Paul to me is top 10 in terms of career - he's only played 7 full seasons and he needs more team success and longevity to be recognized as greater just like everybody else. I never said otherwise even though I slightly disagree with it.

What I said was Paul was just as good if not better than any point not named Magic or Oscar based on what he does to help his teams on the court individually. Team success is almost irrelevant to me in this area because he's not playing the other team by himself, his teammates have to contribute also and they've performed terribly in the postseason so far compared to the brutal competition he's faced. By doing this, you're automatically penalizing players who play on terrible franchises.
Besides Magic, what PG has done all of this? And besides Magic and Oscar which PG's won MVP's or titles that Paul couldn't have?

Okay. So I think you seriously over-rate Paul if you think he's the clear cut 3rd best pg ever.

I could flip it around and say I don't see how Stockton, Nash, Kidd, Payton, Penny and more couldn't have done what Paul has done at his peak...just to name guys that you might have seen.

We both agree that he's a top 10 pg ever and that it's too early to accurately rank his career.

Where we disagree is that you think he's clearly better than the likes of a Stockton or Kidd. I just don't. On the same level? Sure, I'd take Kidd over both. Probably would take Paul over Stockton, but it's tough. Is Paul better than a healthy Penny Hardaway? Nah...not in my opinion.

[SHAQisGOAT]

(Speaking of primes/peaks) I would pick Magic, Oscar, Isiah and Walt ahead of CP3.
With the likes of Stockton, Nash, Kidd and Payton it would be a really tough choice.. Then after you have dudes like Cousy, Penny or Tiny.
So yes, Paul is simply one of the greatest PG's ever.

[Project018]

Magic
Big O/Zeke
Kidd/CP3
Payton
Nash

[ninephive]

Lettuce be real, Tony Parker is already playing at a higher level then CP3 for his whole career and has the rings and finals MVP to show for it.
Tony Parker could literally beat him in multiple playoff series and sweep the teams that knock him out in other years and not be considered better. Oh, wait...

[ninephive]

You're confusing ability and career, Paul to me is top 10 in terms of career - he's only played 7 full seasons and he needs more team success and longevity to be recognized as greater just like everybody else. I never said otherwise even though I slightly disagree with it.

What I said was Paul was just as good if not better than any point not named Magic or Oscar based on what he does to help his teams on the court individually. Team success is almost irrelevant to me in this area because he's not playing the other team by himself, his teammates have to contribute also and they've performed terribly in the postseason so far compared to the brutal competition he's faced. By doing this, you're automatically penalizing players who play on terrible franchises.
Besides Magic, what PG has done all of this? And besides Magic and Oscar which PG's won MVP's or titles that Paul couldn't have?
Hahaahahahahahahahaahaha the 2013 Grizzlies! :lol :lol :lol So brutal!

[ninephive]

Hahaahahahahahahahaahaha the 2013 Grizzlies! :lol :lol :lol So brutal!
Playoff stats vs the Grizzlies:

Paul: 22.8 / 6.3 / 1.8 stl ... in a 2-4 LOSING EFFORT IN THE FIRST ROUND.

Parker: 24.5 / 9.5 / 2.0 stl ... in a 4-0 SWEEP IN THE WCF.

[ninephive]

Playoff stats vs the Grizzlies:

Paul: 22.8 / 6.3 / 1.8 stl ... in a 2-4 LOSING EFFORT IN THE FIRST ROUND.

Parker: 24.5 / 9.5 / 2.0 stl ... in a 4-0 SWEEP IN THE WCF.
Oh, sorry...forgot to note the defensive end (because of Chris Paul's great defense):

Conley (Spurs): 15.3 / 5.8

Conley (Clippers): 17.3 / 8.3

[Young X]

Tony Parker could literally beat him in multiple playoff series and sweep the teams that knock him out in other years and not be considered better. Oh, wait...You're not realizing that Parker wasn't beating those teams by himself, him along with his great teammates and coach beat those teams. Parker wasn't even the best player on his team lol.

The 2013 Grizzlies were the #2 defense, won 56 games in the stacked west, went to the WCF. Paul still had an extremely efficient series vs them and played well enough for his team to win.

Playoff stats vs the Grizzlies: That's only because Paul had 1 horrible game that dragged his averages down. Look at both series game to game and Paul clearly played better. He led the entire playoffs in PER just off of that series.

[ninephive]

You're not realizing that Parker wasn't beating those teams by himself, him along with his great teammates and coach beat those teams. Parker wasn't even the best player on his team lol.

The 2013 Grizzlies were the #2 defense, won 56 games in the stacked west, went to the WCF. Paul still had an extremely efficient series vs them and played well enough for his team to win.
That's only because Paul had 1 horrible game that dragged hi averages down. Look at both series game to game and Paul clearly played better.
Well then what does that say about Tony Parker who played statistically better ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL and ACTUALLY DID WIN?

[ninephive]

You're not realizing that Parker wasn't beating those teams by himself, him along with his great teammates and coach beat those teams. Parker wasn't even the best player on his team lol.

The 2013 Grizzlies were the #2 defense, won 56 games in the stacked west, went to the WCF. Paul still had an extremely efficient series vs them and played well enough for his team to win.
That's only because Paul had 1 horrible game that dragged his averages down. Look at both series game to game and Paul clearly played better. He led the entire playoffs in PER just off of that series.
Well, of course he did. Because when all you have to do it put up empty stats for ONE SERIES, especially when you lose in embarrassing fashion yet again in the first round, you can do things like LEAD THE ENTIRE PLAYOFFS IN PER. So basically we should come to one of 2 conclusions: Chris Paul had an AMAZING 2013 playoffs or WHO CARES ABOUT LEADING THE PLAYOFFS IN PER IN ONE SERIES?

[ninephive]

You're not realizing that Parker wasn't beating those teams by himself, him along with his great teammates and coach beat those teams. Parker wasn't even the best player on his team lol.

The 2013 Grizzlies were the #2 defense, won 56 games in the stacked west, went to the WCF. Paul still had an extremely efficient series vs them and played well enough for his team to win.
That's only because Paul had 1 horrible game that dragged his averages down. Look at both series game to game and Paul clearly played better. He led the entire playoffs in PER just off of that series.
How in the WORLD was Tony Parker not the best player on his team in the Memphis series?

[Young X]

Well, of course he did. Because when all you have to do it put up empty stats for ONE SERIES, especially when you lose in embarrassing fashion yet again in the first round, you can do things like LEAD THE ENTIRE PLAYOFFS IN PER. So basically we should come to one of 2 conclusions: Chris Paul had an AMAZING 2013 playoffs or WHO CARES ABOUT LEADING THE PLAYOFFS IN PER IN ONE SERIES?The point is he played well enough for his team to win, but the thing you and DMAVS don't get is you can't win without the help of your teammates. Parker had a great series, no doubt - arguably was the best player on the Spurs in that series, but he's not winning anything if his teammates play terrible like Paul's did.

How in the WORLD was Tony Parker not the best player on his team in the Memphis series?I'm talking about the enitire season. Duncan was the best/most impactful player on the Spurs for the majority of the season.

[DMAVS41]

This is where the Kevin Love "empty stats" shit comes from. I don't think they are empty nor do I think it's a comparison to Paul, but obviously we all know from watching that Kevin Love isn't as good as Dirk or Barkley, for example, but that stats tell us another story.

If we can't talk about stuff like that...I don't see the point of any debates and discussions.

And shit...I'm a huge stats guy, but at some point we have to talk about the simple fact that some players aren't as good as their numbers...and some are better.

[ninephive]

The point is he played well enough for his team to win, but the thing you and DMAVS don't get is you can't win without the help of your teammates. Parker had a great series, no doubt - arguably was the best player on the Spurs in that series, but he's not winning anything if his teammates play terrible like Paul's did.
I'm talking about the enitire season. Duncan was the best/most impactful player on the Spurs for the majority of the season.
Arguably? Arguably? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha, this just goes to show how ridiculous you are.

[ninephive]

The point is he played well enough for his team to win, but the thing you and DMAVS don't get is you can't win without the help of your teammates. Parker had a great series, no doubt - arguably was the best player on the Spurs in that series, but he's not winning anything if his teammates play terrible like Paul's did.
I'm talking about the enitire season. Duncan was the best/most impactful player on the Spurs for the majority of the season.
Be honest and tell me how many Spurs games you watch each season.

[DMAVS41]

The point is he played well enough for his team to win, but the thing you and DMAVS don't get is you can't win without the help of your teammates. Parker had a great series, no doubt - arguably was the best player on the Spurs in that series, but he's not winning anything if his teammates play terrible like Paul's did.

Please don't tell me what I get and don't get.

I'm well aware of not being able to win without help...comes standard as a Dirk/Mavs fan.

What you don't get...is that sometimes you have to upset teams...play a legendary game 7. You think Dirk would still be Dirk if he wasn't one of the best elimination game and game 7 players ever? That he'd still be the legend he is today if he didn't go for 37/15 on the road against the Spurs at the peak of their powers and win?

You have to do shit like that or...you are just another really good player. Paul is missing the things that make a player a true legend. To date he just hasn't done enough to separate himself from some of the guys we are talking about.

Seriously...is Kevin Love just as good as Dirk ever was?

26/14/4 on 59% TS...as good or better statistically than Dirk ever was in the regular season.

Do I think Paul is better than Parker? Yes, but Parker last year in the Western playoffs was better than you are giving him credit for.

[bizil]

Size and ability wise, Paul is on par EASILY with Tiny and Isiah. Between those three is damn close, but I will narrowly take Isiah peak value wise. Other than that, the only PG's peak value wise FOR SURE I would take over CP3 are Magic, Big O, Payton, and Frazier. And that's mainly due to size and versatility. Skill for skill or pound for pound, CP3 and Zeke are as good as any PG's ever.

[ninephive]

I simply don't understand how Chris Paul can lose a series to a common opponent as Tony Parker, put up worse offensive and defensive stats, and that being in a first-round series against a WCF series, and still have people that believe that Chris Paul is better than Parker in the playoffs. What more could Parker have done? Literally eliminated Chris Paul's team directly? He's done that twice? Maybe never lose in the playoffs to Paul? He's never done that. Maybe win a Finals MVP against Lebron? Done that...almost twice. Honestly, outside of being traded to a bottom feeder, what could Parker have possibly done this past year in the playoffs to prove that to you? Average 35/15 and hold Conley to like 10/5? Have bigger wins like instead of winning by a few points, make every game a blowout? Would those two things have proven it to you?

[bizil]

Please don't tell me what I get and don't get.

I'm well aware of not being able to win without help...comes standard as a Dirk/Mavs fan.

What you don't get...is that sometimes you have to upset teams...play a legendary game 7. You think Dirk would still be Dirk if he wasn't one of the best elimination game and game 7 players ever? That he'd still be the legend he is today if he didn't go for 37/15 on the road against the Spurs at the peak of their powers and win?

You have to do shit like that or...you are just another really good player. Paul is missing the things that make a player a true legend. To date he just hasn't done enough to separate himself from some of the guys we are talking about.

Seriously...is Kevin Love just as good as Dirk ever was?

26/14/4 on 59% TS...as good or better statistically than Dirk ever was in the regular season.

Do I think Paul is better than Parker? Yes, but Parker last year in the Western playoffs was better than you are giving him credit for.

I agree with u on Paul! Paul peak value wise in my book is a top 10 PG ever. But the main list is your resume for the GOAT. And as of now, u can't even rank him as high as guys like Nash, Tiny, Kidd, or Payton. Let alone Magic, Big O, Isiah, Frazier, or Stockton. But I feel CP3 is well on his way to accumulating the resume NECESSARY to pass some of those guys by.

[Straight_Ballin]

I laughed at thread title. CP3 isn't even better than Kevin Johnson.

[GoSpursGo1984]

I laughed at thread title. CP3 isn't even better than Kevin Johnson.


I agree I laugh when people say he is an all time great. Forget all time great what has he even done to be a Hall of Famer? He has no MVP, not even reached the Finals all he has done is put up stats in the regular season. If that is all it takes to be an all team great then I guess Kevin Love must be an all time great to.

[DMAVS41]

I laughed at thread title. CP3 isn't even better than Kevin Johnson.

I think Paul is probably better, but having said that...Imagine KJ playing with these joke rules of this era.

Seriously...he would be going nuts nightly. In the right situation I definitely think he could have a 25/13/4 type season...

[Young X]

Arguably? Arguably? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha, this just goes to show how ridiculous you are.It's not crazy when you take defensive impact into account. Parker was better, props to him for a great series, but with an injured Griffin in place of Duncan they're not winning that series at all.

Please don't tell me what I get and don't get.

I'm well aware of not being able to win without help...comes standard as a Dirk/Mavs fan.

What you don't get...is that sometimes you have to upset teams...play a legendary game 7.How many PG's did this (upset teams with legendary game 7's) annually?

You have to do shit like that or...you are just another really good player. Paul is missing the things that make a player a true legend. To date he just hasn't done enough to separate himself from some of the guys we are talking about.

Seriously...is Kevin Love just as good as Dirk ever was?

26/14/4 on 59% TS...as good or better statistically than Dirk ever was in the regular season.If Love did this in the postseason (like Paul), why wouldn't he at least have a small argument?

Damn near everything you're saying about Paul can be used against someone like Oscar Robertson who's a certified top 15-20 player all time.

[DMAVS41]

I agree I laugh when people say he is an all time great. Forget all time great what has he even done to be a Hall of Famer? He has no MVP, not even reached the Finals all he has done is put up stats in the regular season. If that is all it takes to be an all team great then I guess Kevin Love must be an all time great to.

I know I brought up Love, but I didn't want to compare the two. Paul has been on playoff teams. Teams that have exceeded expectations...won playoff games. Won playoff series.

Love hasn't even made the playoffs yet.

I don't think the two are comparable and I think Paul is a legit top 10 pg ever.

But I do think the overall point is valid...at what point do we stop ignoring all results? Kevin Love is simply not as good as his numbers. It's just really a fact at this point. If he was on par with some of the best pf's ever....his team would be winning 55 plus this year with what he has for help and coach.

It's just obvious at this point.

I want to make it clear that I don't view Paul the same, but at some point he has to actually do something in the playoffs...IF IF IF IF IF...he and his fans want to separate him from all the other great pg's we've mentioned.

[Young X]

I want to make it clear that I don't view Paul the same, but at some point he has to actually do something in the playoffs...IF IF IF IF IF...he and his fans want to separate him from all the other great pg's we've mentioned.What did Oscar Robertson, a player greater than Paul do in the playoffs the 10 years before Kareem? The exact same thing that Paul did, actually even worse because he missed the postseason twice in his prime. What does that tell you?

[DMAVS41]

What did Oscar Robertson, a player greater than Paul do in the playoffs the 10 years before Kareem? The exact same thing that Paul did, actually even worse because he missed the postseason twice in his prime. What does that tell you?

So what? I didn't get to see Oscar. So I can't really comment. You act like I'm only using team success. I'm not.

I'm saying that if Paul wants to separate himself from the guys that we are talking about...he has to do more. And the crazy thing is...YOU AGREE! Or why not just claim he's the clear cut 2nd or 3rd best pg ever? You don't do that...and you know why. Paul hasn't done enough to date in terms of his play and team success to warrant it.

I like how a guy like Kidd played more than Paul at the pg position. Has nothing to do with the Nets making it far in the playoffs...although it is nice to at least see what Kidd is like deep in the playoffs.

So in terms of Oscar...all I can go off of is listening to historians of the game speak on the subject. And it's near unanimous from what I've read and seen that Oscar was flat out a better player than Paul.

[GoSpursGo1984]

I know I brought up Love, but I didn't want to compare the two. Paul has been on playoff teams. Teams that have exceeded expectations...won playoff games. Won playoff series.

Love hasn't even made the playoffs yet.

I don't think the two are comparable and I think Paul is a legit top 10 pg ever.

But I do think the overall point is valid...at what point do we stop ignoring all results? Kevin Love is simply not as good as his numbers. It's just really a fact at this point. If he was on par with some of the best pf's ever....his team would be winning 55 plus this year with what he has for help and coach.

It's just obvious at this point.

I want to make it clear that I don't view Paul the same, but at some point he has to actually do something in the playoffs...IF IF IF IF IF...he and his fans want to separate him from all the other great pg's we've mentioned.

Maybe that was a bad example but I think you got the point. Players should not be considered all time greats if they can not even get to the Conference Finals. I think Carmelo Anthony may be a better example since he puts up big points numbers and has been to the Western Conference Finals.

[Legends66NBA7]

I laughed at thread title. CP3 isn't even better than Kevin Johnson.

90 Kevin Johnson's playoff run was pretty impressive. He got hurt in the WCF, right ?

[Young X]

In Barkley's first 7 seasons as the best player on his team he got passed the 2nd round 0 times.

Before he teamed up with Kareem, Oscar took 10 years to get past the 2nd round.

KG took 8 years to get past the 1st round.

At this point of their careers were these guys not top 5 players to play their position either (not talking career wise, just ability wise)?

Were they "not as good as their stats" either?

Or were their teams (because of lack of help) just in worse positions to win than the teams beating them in those seasons?

[DMAVS41]

In Barkley's first 7 seasons as the best player on his team he got passed the 2nd round 0 times.

Before he teamed up with Kareem, Oscar took 10 years to get past the 2nd round.

KG took 8 years to get past the 1st round.

At this point of their careers were these guys not top 5 players to play their position either (not talking career wise, just ability wise)?

Were they "not as good as their stats" either?

Or were their teams (because of lack of help) just in worse positions to win than the teams beating them in those seasons?

But you confuse the arguments. Who is saying Paul isn't as good as his stats? I said that about Love, but not about Paul. I just don't think Paul is better than his stats...while I think guys like Kidd and Payton were better than their stats.

Nobody is denying that Paul is an all time great guard...this is why I keep asking who you are debating with?

Also, actually...yes...KG shouldn't have been on par with Karl Malone before he showed what he could do in 04. Barkley needed to 93 to solidify his place among all time great power forwards...

Sometimes it's hard to get a read on guys until they play in the playoffs and play under at least the lights of a conference finals.

Again...just look at Kevin Love. We all know he doesn't deserve to be put on that level. Yet on your logic Love should be a top 5 or so pf of all time based on his play. Doesn't work like that. It's too easy to put up big stats on average teams...hell, even good teams, in the NBA.

But again...nobody is saying Paul isn't in that tier of pg's you claim he's in. Literally everyone is basically agreeing Paul is an all time great pg and at least top 10 or so.

What we are saying is simple. If he wants to separate himself from some of those guys...he needs to do something more than just put up great numbers. That is all.

[veilside23]

Playoff RONDO >>>>>>>>> cp3 ...

[DetroitPiston]

I like Chris Paul, but I'm not overlooking Zeke (Who changed his game so he could win), Magic, Kidd, Oscar, or Payton. If his career were to end today, he'd be another John Stockton, great in the regular season, but meh in the playoffs.