Apart from stats, what has CP3 accomplished?

[Nick Young]

On the Hornets, he had Tyson Chandler, one of the best defensive bigs, and David West one of the best post scorers in the league. What did CP3 accomplish with the Hornets?

In LA, CP3 has one of the most stacked teams in the league. What has CP3 accomplished?

What has CP3 done to prove himself to be the #1 PG in the league right now and an all time great?

:confusedshrug:

[Frozen1]

He has accomplished the excuse that his teamates sucks on any team he plays, so his lack of winning success in playoffs is not his fault.

[Nick Young]

He has accomplished the excuse that his teamates sucks on any team he plays, so his lack of winning success in playoffs is not his fault.
David West and Tyson Chandler are really good doe:confusedshrug:

[Jameerthefear]

always kind of felt this way about Paul. We'll see after this season though. Solid team, not horrible coach, and some good players (Griffin really improving, JJ playing well when he wasn't hurt, and DJ improving defensively)
I think he needs to make a good playoff run this year.

[Brook(lyn)Lopez]

He helped State Farm increase their annual revenue by 2.356%, and made their stock portfolio more attractive to investors than ever.
Thank you Cliff Paul.

[cos88]

exact what kobe accomplished without phil jackson

[Kblaze8855]

These topics are always annoying. About anyone. "Other than ____ what has ____ even done!" as if the _____ isn't omitted just because reality as it is doesn't paint the picture the person is looking for. If you need qualifiers or to omit anything....you probably don't have a good point to make.

Nobody is gonna disregard that hes third behind Stockton and Magic in assists per game. Or that hes led the NBA in steals 5 times. Hes 5 times all NBA and all D team. Hes a 6 time all star at 27. His resume looks better half way through his career than some HOF points look completed.

Which has nothing to do with the fact that hes on a short list of the best pick and roll runners of all time behind Stockton and Mark Price. Or that hes one of the best points ever when it comes to doing what his team needs at the moment....hes about as capable a scorer as the point guard position has seen in 20 years but hes also as good a playmaker as any have been in that time. Hes a good defender. Has a great command of his team...the respect of his teammates...and hes performed well in the playoffs. He can run the break like few ever and operate in the halfcourt like few ever.

There is nothing you can say about his team success you cant say about Oscar Robertsons. Neither won more than one playoff series in a season as their teams best player. But Oscar is considered all time great for the same reason Paul will be.

An appreciation of basketball not being clouded by nonsense and hate.

Wanna know why Paul is going down as an all time great point guard?

He plays basketball better than most point guard ever did.

How is that hard to grasp?

[Young X]

These topics are always annoying. About anyone. "Other than ____ what has ____ even done!" as if the _____ isn't omitted just because reality as it is doesn't paint the picture the person is looking for. If you need qualifiers or to omit anything....you probably don't have a good point to make.

Nobody is gonna disregard that hes third behind Stockton and Magic in assists per game. Or that hes led the NBA in steals 5 times. Hes 5 times all NBA and all D team. Hes a 6 time all star at 27. His resume looks better half way through his career than some HOF points look completed.

Which has nothing to do with the fact that hes on a short list of the best pick and roll runners of all time behind Stockton and Mark Price. Or that hes one of the best points ever when it comes to doing what his team needs at the moment....hes about as capable a scorer as the point guard position has seen in 20 years but hes also as good a playmaker as any have been in that time. Hes a good defender. Has a great command of his team...the respect of his teammates...and hes performed well in the playoffs. He can run the break like few ever and operate in the halfcourt like few ever.

There is nothing you can say about his team success you cant say about Oscar Robertsons. Neither won more than one playoff series in a season as their teams best player. But Oscar is considered all time great for the same reason Paul will be.

An appreciation of basketball not being clouded by nonsense and hate.

Wanna know why Paul is going down as an all time great point guard?

He plays basketball better than most point guard ever did.

How is that hard to grasp?Exactly. Finally somebody gets it besides myself.

[Kblaze8855]

If asked what is lacking in Chris Pauls game as a point guard you know what a lot of his haters would have to say?

"Making it past the second round"

Which really says it all. There is no basketball argument against Chris Paul being an all time great. Hes a half step from flawless far as his point guard skillset.


Chris Paul is a brilliant....just...****ing brilliant point guard.

The rest is just people mad on the internet because that's how people on the internet act.

[TylerOO]

Absolutely nothing...

[DMAVS41]

If asked what is lacking in Chris Pauls game as a point guard you know what a lot of his haters would have to say?

"Making it past the second round"

Which really says it all. There is no basketball argument against Chris Paul being an all time great. Hes a half step from flawless far as his point guard skillset.


Chris Paul is a brilliant....just...****ing brilliant point guard.

The rest is just people mad on the internet because that's how people on the internet act.

But the only time anyone says that is when people place Paul as the clear cut 2nd best pg ever....or clearly better than the likes of Kidd or Stockton...etc.

I don't see many people, if any, deny the brilliance of Chris Paul. I think he could go down as the 2nd best pg ever. But he actually has to do stuff....like get past the 2nd round with more than capable teams. Every other player in history is judged on that...not sure why Paul wouldn't be.

He wants to be known and better than Kidd and Stockton...make some noise in the playoffs. I think that is fair...

[1987_Lakers]

These topics are always annoying. About anyone. "Other than ____ what has ____ even done!" as if the _____ isn't omitted just because reality as it is doesn't paint the picture the person is looking for. If you need qualifiers or to omit anything....you probably don't have a good point to make.

Nobody is gonna disregard that hes third behind Stockton and Magic in assists per game. Or that hes led the NBA in steals 5 times. Hes 5 times all NBA and all D team. Hes a 6 time all star at 27. His resume looks better half way through his career than some HOF points look completed.

Which has nothing to do with the fact that hes on a short list of the best pick and roll runners of all time behind Stockton and Mark Price. Or that hes one of the best points ever when it comes to doing what his team needs at the moment....hes about as capable a scorer as the point guard position has seen in 20 years but hes also as good a playmaker as any have been in that time. Hes a good defender. Has a great command of his team...the respect of his teammates...and hes performed well in the playoffs. He can run the break like few ever and operate in the halfcourt like few ever.

There is nothing you can say about his team success you cant say about Oscar Robertsons. Neither won more than one playoff series in a season as their teams best player. But Oscar is considered all time great for the same reason Paul will be.

An appreciation of basketball not being clouded by nonsense and hate.

Wanna know why Paul is going down as an all time great point guard?

He plays basketball better than most point guard ever did.

How is that hard to grasp?

:applause: Someone who gets it.

It's a shame how people treat all-time great players who are still in the league, it isn't until that player is in their mid 30's when they truly realize how great of a player he really is. In the past 12 hours I have heard some say how Price and Stockton were better players than CP3 which is ridiculous, some feel like these past players have no flaws. It's ok, 10-20 years from now people will truly realize how great CP3 was/is. It's a shame some can't recognize true greatness in the moment.

[1987_Lakers]

But the only time anyone says that is when people place Paul as the clear cut 2nd best pg ever....or clearly better than the likes of Kidd or Stockton...etc.

I don't see many people, if any, deny the brilliance of Chris Paul. I think he could go down as the 2nd best pg ever. But he actually has to do stuff....like get past the 2nd round with more than capable teams. Every other player in history is judged on that...not sure why Paul wouldn't be.

He wants to be known and better than Kidd and Stockton...make some noise in the playoffs. I think that is fair...

Paul is CLEARLY better than Stockton, open your eyes.

[Inferno]

These topics are always annoying. About anyone. "Other than ____ what has ____ even done!" as if the _____ isn't omitted just because reality as it is doesn't paint the picture the person is looking for. If you need qualifiers or to omit anything....you probably don't have a good point to make.

Nobody is gonna disregard that hes third behind Stockton and Magic in assists per game. Or that hes led the NBA in steals 5 times. Hes 5 times all NBA and all D team. Hes a 6 time all star at 27. His resume looks better half way through his career than some HOF points look completed.

Which has nothing to do with the fact that hes on a short list of the best pick and roll runners of all time behind Stockton and Mark Price. Or that hes one of the best points ever when it comes to doing what his team needs at the moment....hes about as capable a scorer as the point guard position has seen in 20 years but hes also as good a playmaker as any have been in that time. Hes a good defender. Has a great command of his team...the respect of his teammates...and hes performed well in the playoffs. He can run the break like few ever and operate in the halfcourt like few ever.

There is nothing you can say about his team success you cant say about Oscar Robertsons. Neither won more than one playoff series in a season as their teams best player. But Oscar is considered all time great for the same reason Paul will be.

An appreciation of basketball not being clouded by nonsense and hate.

Wanna know why Paul is going down as an all time great point guard?

He plays basketball better than most point guard ever did.

How is that hard to grasp?

:applause:

[avonbarksdale]

agreed, before me and my buddy were arguing cp3 vs westbrook i told him call me when cp gets to an nba finals

[DMAVS41]

Paul is CLEARLY better than Stockton, open your eyes.

Uhhh...no, he really isn't.

[moe94]

Kblaze went in.

[Solefade]

legacy is overrated. you got game or you don't.

is anyone going to argue that eli manning is a better quarterback than dan marino or jim kelly? or even peyton manning? **** no. those are the same people that are like "kobe is better than ________ cus he has more rings" but when you say "robert horry has more rings than kobe" it doesn't apply for some reason.

[1987_Lakers]

Paul in his 8 year career has already made more All-NBA First Teams than Stockton who played 19 seasons.

BTW Stockton would probably never have sniffed an All-NBA First Team if Jordan didn't retire in the mid 90's

[Young X]

The problem is these idiots don't know how to separate team success from individual play.

Tony Parker had way more team success than Oscar Robertson. Does that mean he's better? No, it just means he was in a better winning situation.

If Paul played with Malone or Duncan his whole career, would that make him a better player or just a luckier player?

[moe94]

Paul in his 8 year career has already made more All-NBA First Teams than Stockton who played 19 seasons.

BTW Stockton would probably never have sniffed an All-NBA First Team if Jordan didn't retire in the mid 90's

Paul might be better, but that literally has no bearing on anything. Wade only has 2 first teams, iirc. Wonderful argument.

[bdreason]

What did Charles Barkley accomplish outside of stats?

What did Karl Malone accomplish outside of stats?

What did John Stockton accomplish outside of stats?

What did Patrick Ewing accomplish outside of stats?

What did Steve Nash accomplish outside of stats?

What did Clyde Drexler accomplish outside of stats?

What did Dominque Wilkins accomplish outside of stats?

What did Reggie Miller accomplish outside of stats?

What has Kevin Durant accomplished outside of stats?

[longtime lurker]

What did Charles Barkley accomplish outside of stats?

What did Karl Malone accomplish outside of stats?

What did John Stockton accomplish outside of stats?

What did Patrick Ewing accomplish outside of stats?

What did Steve Nash accomplish outside of stats?

What did Clyde Drexler accomplish outside of stats?

What did Dominque Wilkins accomplish outside of stats?

What did Reggie Miller accomplish outside of stats?

What has Kevin Durant accomplished outside of stats?

There are literally only 2 guys on this list that haven't made the finals as the best player.

[Young X]

There are literally only 2 guys on this list that haven't made the finals as the best player.And they all played on better squads than Paul with much better teammates and coaching.

[get these NETS]

cp3 is a great player


but if you grew up seeing prime kj, prime tim hardaway young gp, prime stockton in the league(and conference) at roughly the same time

be hard for you to get say that cp is is an alltime great


especially since deron williams has his way with cp every game.....the dudes listed above would feast on cp

[1987_Lakers]

Paul might be better, but that literally has no bearing on anything. Wade only has 2 first teams, irrc. Wonderful argument.

That would only help my argument, Wade only making 2 All-NBA First teams shows you how stacked the guard position was. CP3 had to battle with Kobe, Wade, Nash, Parker, Westbrook, Rose (the year he won MVP).

Stockton made an All-NBA First team the same year Latrell Sprewell made it. BTW Stockton NEVER made an All-NBA First team when Jordan was in the league for a full season.

[gts]

legacy is overrated. you got game or you don't.

is anyone going to argue that eli manning is a better quarterback than dan marino or jim kelly? or even peyton manning? **** no. those are the same people that are like "kobe is better than ________ cus he has more rings" but when you say "robert horry has more rings than kobe" it doesn't apply for some reason.:facepalm
Context

[Solefade]

:facepalm
Context

oh so context finally comes into play when it comes to horry > kobe :lol why isn't there context for kobe's first 3 rings?

anyway not trying to make this thread about Kobe but CP3 is a top 5 PG of all time regardless of how his final NBA resume turns out.

[Dolphin]

agreed, before me and my buddy were arguing cp3 vs westbrook i told him call me when cp gets to an nba finals

This is why I separate career success from how good a player is/was.

For career success you can simply look at awards, rings and the like (I'd argue that Paul would still win this regardless of Westbrook's one finals appearance). Even a lazy person or someone with low bball IQ can have a decent opinion on this.

But when discussing how good a player is/was, and to have a good discussion at that, you can't be lazy and throw out one finals appearance as a counter point. You have to use the eye test season to season as well as in specific high importance moments (ALL facets of a player's game). You need to look at stats to a certain extent (whether old and/or new age stats). If a player's team had success, who was on the team? If you put that player on another compared player's team, how would they do? How would the team's success be altered? You have to look at the level of talent in the league at the time the player was playing (if applicable) and gauge if said player's greatness was a product of the times or if his game was transferable to any generation. What are the leadership qualities of the player? There are other things I'm not thinking of I'm sure.

Some people here imo overrated Paul especially in his NO days, but if you're asking me as a GM, who would I pick to be on my team between Paul and Westbrook, I'd choose Paul.

[DMAVS41]

The problem is these idiots don't know how to separate team success from individual play.

Tony Parker had way more team success than Oscar Robertson. Does that mean he's better? No, it just means he was in a better winning situation.

If Paul played with Malone or Duncan his whole career, would that make him a better player or just a luckier player?

Very few people, if any, take Parker over Paul.

So again I don't see the validity of this argument. Nobody is asking for titles from Paul...but at least a conference finals would be nice from a guy that is supposed to be as good as you guys claim.

I'm sure he'll eventually do it, but all we have so far is his career to date. And it puts him somewhere in the top 10 pg's of all time. I honestly have no clue where. He's just in that grouping...and hasn't done enough to separate himself from some of the past greats.

So again...what is the point here? That Paul is clearly better than guys like Penny, Stockton, Kidd? Is that what you are saying?

[Kblaze8855]

But he actually has to do stuff....like get past the 2nd round with more than capable teams. Every other player in history is judged on that...not sure why Paul wouldn't be.

There isnt one player in NBa history ive ever heard "Never got past the second round" about. Its a nothing argument.

Who has ever given a shit about a 3rd round loss as opposed to a second? Ive been watching and arguing about basketball all my life and I never once heard the term "Get past the second round" until people on the internet wanted to hate on Chris Paul.

And no people have not been waiting for some arbitrary thing like this to point out greatness. Michael Jordan was called the best ever by more than a few people before he had won anything Chris Paul has not. Same for Oscar Robertson. Larry Bird got GOAT talk as a rookie in the first round of the playoffs. I could show you articles on Kareem being the best center ever as a rookie and second year player before he won.

You know why? Exceptional basketball playing.

All that legacy shit is mostly for places like this where people have gone so far into arguing they dont appreciate the game in front of them anymore.

Chris Paul goes to the WCF his bounce passes wont be any more crisp and his playcalling no more apt. But people who for the most part argue points like:



agreed, before me and my buddy were arguing cp3 vs westbrook i told him call me when cp gets to an nba finals

...will be more impressed....because they are ****ing idiots and dont care about the game they are talking about.

Its little better than my young cousin who says Melo is better than Jordan because "They aint play no defense back in the day...and that ***** Melo too cold!"

When the argument comes down to "Yea but what round did he go out? Second or third?" like that carries the day it might as well be "That ***** too cold!" to me.

Players either win or they dont. Falling 3 rounds short as opposed to 2 has never been what decided if a player is a winner or not and it never should be.

We gotta throw things like that in at least use finals trips....

Not that going to the finals would make Chris Paul anything he isnt right now anyway.....

[flipogb]

What did Charles Barkley accomplish outside of stats?

What did Karl Malone accomplish outside of stats?

What did John Stockton accomplish outside of stats?

What did Patrick Ewing accomplish outside of stats?

What did Steve Nash accomplish outside of stats?

What did Clyde Drexler accomplish outside of stats?

What did Dominque Wilkins accomplish outside of stats?

What did Reggie Miller accomplish outside of stats?

What has Kevin Durant accomplished outside of stats?

getting deep into the playoffs/ getting to the finals

[DMAVS41]

There isnt one player in NBa history ive ever heard "Never got past the second round" about. Its a nothing argument.

Who has ever given a shit about a 3rd round loss as opposed to a second? Ive been watching and arguing about basketball all my life and I never once heard the term "Get past the second round" until people on the internet wanted to hate on Chris Paul.

And no people have not been waiting for some arbitrary thing like this to point out greatness. Michael Jordan was called the best ever by more than a few people before he had won anything Chris Paul has not. Same for Oscar Robertson. Larry Bird got GOAT talk as a rookie in the first round of the playoffs. I could show you articles on Kareem being the best center ever as a rookie and second year player before he won.

You know why? Exceptional basketball playing.

All that legacy shit is mostly for places like this where people have gone so far into arguing they dont appreciate the game in front of them anymore.

Chris Paul goes to the WCF his bounce passes wont be any more crisp and his playcalling no more apt. But people who for the most part argue points like:




...will be more impressed....because they are ****ing idiots and dont care about the game they are talking about.

Its little better than my young cousin who says Melo is better than Jordan because "They aint play no defense back in the day...and that ***** Melo too cold!"

When the argument comes down to "Yea but what round did he go out? Second or third?" like that carries the day it might as well be "That ***** too cold!" to me.

Players either win or they dont. Falling 3 rounds short as opposed to 2 has never been what decided if a player is a winner or not and it never should be.

We gotta throw things like that in at least use finals trips....

Not that going to the finals would make Chris Paul anything he isnt right now anyway.....

The difference is that CP3 isn't that kind of player. Like...you really think is better than Jason Kidd ever was? I sure as hell don't.

It's about where you rate him for that argument...which you obviously missed...or just disregarded. If you rate him somewhere in the top 10 pg's ever...then it's not a valid argument.

But if people start saying he's the best pg ever after Magic...I have some issues giving that title to a guy that hasn't really ever done anything in the playoffs. I haven't seen him play under the pressure of conference finals or nba finals. I haven't seen how he handles deep playoff runs on and off the court. I haven't seen if he can consistently come through in clutch playoff moments...etc.

To act like what happens in the playoffs is meaningless is silly. The game is different. No more feasting against crap teams. Tons of pressure. Physical beatings...etc.

Sorry if I need to see a bit more from Paul before I crown him the best pg ever after Magic.

[Kblaze8855]

Ive noticed you often ask me questions about things I have never even brought up. Or said a word about. Im not sure why.....but I notice you do that like every third time I speak t you. You ask me "So you really think ___?" as if I said I thought it or as if something I replied to was even on the subject. Where do you even get Jason Kidd out of anything ive said?

What in my words brings you to ask me:

"Like...you really think is better than Jason Kidd ever was? I sure as hell don't."


Where does the "really" come from? its as if I said it...and you are now asking me to reiterate it. When I dont think its anywhere in anything I said...in my life.

Its hard to do this when im asked to answer for things so far out of left field. I dont know how anything in here:




What has CP3 done to prove himself to be the #1 PG in the league right now and an all time great?

And my responses to that idiotic question even lead you to ask me some of these questions.

[DMAVS41]

Ive noticed you often ask me questions about things I have never even brought up. Or said a word about. Im not sure why.....but I notice you do that like every third time I speak t you. You ask me "So you really think ___?" as if I said I thought it or as if something I replied to was even on the subject. Where do you even get Jason Kidd out of anything ive said?

What in my words brings you to ask me:

"Like...you really think is better than Jason Kidd ever was? I sure as hell don't."


Where does the "really" come from? its as if I said it...and you are now asking me to reiterate it. When I dont think its anywhere in anything I said...in my life.

Its hard to do this when im asked to answer for things so far out of left field. I dont know how anything in here:





And my responses to that idiotic question even lead you to ask me some of these questions.


I'm asking you questions because you rarely just state your position. You responded to Paul never getting past the 2nd round as a nothing argument. I of course hugely disagree...I think how players play in the playoffs matters a lot more than you do clearly.

Not to mention my response about the 2nd round stuff was in response to your post claiming it just doesn't matter, but it actually really does. You really think if Paul never gets out of the 2nd round for his career....that it shouldn't impact where we place him in history?

I asked about Kidd because I would like to know where you actually rank, because now I am having to say this for the third time;

Where you rank him matters for this discussion. Could you just state where you rank Paul all time as a pg? That shouldn't be too difficult...

[Young X]

Very few people, if any, take Parker over Paul.

So again I don't see the validity of this argument. Nobody is asking for titles from Paul...but at least a conference finals would be nice from a guy that is supposed to be as good as you guys claim.If getting to the conference finals without context is your berometer than why wouldn't you take Parker over Paul? After all Parker's an all star caliber player who's been to 9 conference finals right? I'm just going by your logic.

[DMAVS41]

:applause: Exactly. Thought I was the only person that's gets it.

But you don't get it and you aren't doing that.

Haven't seen you once mention how the current league is basically designed for pg's. It's absurdly easy right now to get anywhere you want on the court as perimeter player...especially a pg.

The game has changed so much...and if "stats" are the basis of your argument...it's horribly flawed because of what a joke the perimeter defense rules have been since 04...

Doesn't seem like you are factoring that shit in at all.

[Al Thornton]

the clippers have never been stacked u dumb ****

[Mass Debator]

All-star MVP :pimp:

[Kblaze8855]

I rarely state my position either way in an argument because what most often catches my eye is an absurd statement made by someone on one side or the other. I rarely even care which side is right or what they are talking about. Dumb statements catch my eye.

Far as where I rank Paul....you think I have a numbered top 16 point guards list I adjust now and then or what?

Magic Johnson is the best point guard ive seen.

Oscar may have been as good or better. I dont have enough evidence to argue it.

Them aside...

Paul isnt any worse than anyone ive seen with the possible exception of Isiah Thomas who like Paul I felt could just do anything he wanted....

Numbers? Eh.

I dont know how to put Chris Paul 4th and Jason Kidd 7th or what to do with John Stockton.

I could tell you player vs player easier than giving a list.

[DMAVS41]

If getting to the conference finals without context is your berometer than why wouldn't you take Parker over Paul? After all Parker's an all star caliber player who's been to 9 conference finals right? I'm just going by your logic.

It's not without context moron.

It's not my logic at all. Stop acting like Paul has never had a chance to get out of the 2nd round. He has...he just didn't get it done. He either couldn't come through in a game 7 or was playing hurt or whatever excuse you want to throw out.

I don't consider Parker on the level of Paul for all the same reasons you don't. You just under-rate the **** out of all time greats that played in much tougher eras for pg's. Seriously....just look at what happened to Nash after the rules changed. Dude went from being really good....to ****ing all time great. If you want to ignore shit like that...go ahead, but don't come back saying..."nobody gets it"

You probably didn't see a lot of these guys play in their primes...and going off of just stats...and ignoring Paul's inability to do anything of note in the playoffs to date is silly.

I guess in 3 years we'll be crowning Curry as the 4th best pg ever clear cut...LOL

[DMAVS41]

I rarely state my position either way in an argument because what most often catches my eye is an absurd statement made by someone on one side or the other. I rarely even care which side is right or what they are talking about. Dumb statements catch my eye.

Far as where I rank Paul....you think I have a numbered top 16 point guards list I adjust now and then or what?

Magic Johnson is the best point guard ive seen.

Oscar may have been as good or better. I dont have enough evidence to argue it.

Them aside...

Paul isnt any worse than anyone ive seen with the possible exception of Isiah Thomas who like Paul I felt could just do anything he wanted....

Numbers? Eh.

I dont know how to put Chris Paul 4th and Jason Kidd 7th or what to do with John Stockton.

I could tell you player vs player easier than giving a list.


See. That is my point. And I agree by the way.

My response about the 2nd round stuff was that Paul needs something to separate himself from the players after Magic/Oscar...if someone were to say what you did above...I wouldn't bring that up because I don't know how to separate them either, but I think we all agree they are more or less on the same level.

If, however, someone wants to say Paul is the clear cut 2nd or 3rd best pg ever. I think it's more than valid to say that we simply haven't seen enough of him in the playoffs to separate him from the other guys in the top 10 or so.

That was my point.

[rock la familia]

When you have fagge.t haters, hating on you 24/7, you've had to have accomplished something.

[Kblaze8855]

Points are an unusual group to even judge on shit like this. Points dont lead teams to real winning because teams built to suit a point dont play playoff basketball.

It isnt by chance that only 2 teams have been led to the title by a point and one was 6'9'' and played center to win his first one and one was on a team with 5 all stars, the GOAT D to that point, 2 elite rebounders, and an all time great coach.


Want to talk about shit Parker won with Duncan, Westbrook with Durant, Stockton with Malone, Magic with Kareem, Isiah with half the talent in the eastern conference, Oscar with Kareem, Tiny with Larry Bird/Mchale/Parish, Cousy with Russell, Frazier with Reed(73 was probably his team...though Reed won finals MVP anyway)....I have to point out some of those players.

We have to go back to the likes of Bob Davies before a point flat out led a team that wasnt crazy loaded to real success without a better player on the roster. Points dont tend to be the guy to bring together a rag tag group of good players and make a run like a bigman or great enough swingman can do.

One reason all these "But what did he do in the playoffs" posts fall on deaf ears at least to me.

I dont care what Bob Cousy won when he didnt do it till Russell got there and I dont care what Oscar won with Kareem, or Tiny on the Celtics with Larry, or Tony Parker while Duncan is putting in work. I dont care what Westbrook does when Durant is dropping 40 twice a series or what Walt Frazier did with 6 hall of famers one of them the MVP.

I care to know....but im not gonna judge guys who had David West the same way.

Few points have had the big gap between them and their teams next most important player and just made it happen anyway. I dont expect Paul to do any more than most of the elites do when it all really falls on them.


Most of what great points did was while playing off superior players. Paul plays with one ill judge him by those standards.

[DMAVS41]

Points are an unusual group to even judge on shit like this. Points dont lead teams to real winning because teams built to suit a point dont play playoff basketball.

It isnt by chance that only 2 teams have been led to the title by a point and one was 6'9'' and played center to win his first one and one was on a team with 5 all stars, the GOAT D to that point, 2 elite rebounders, and an all time great coach.


Want to talk about shit Parker won with Duncan, Westbrook with Durant, Stockton with Malone, Magic with Kareem, Isiah with half the talent in the eastern conference, Oscar with Kareem, Tiny with Larry Bird/Mchale/Parish, Cousy with Russell, Frazier with Reed(73 was probably his team...though Reed won finals MVP anyway)....I have to point out some of those players.

We have to go back to the likes of Bob Davies before a point flat out led a team that wasnt crazy loaded to real success without a better player on the roster. Points dont tend to be the guy to bring together a rag tag group of good players and make a run like a bigman or great enough swingman can do.

One reason all these "But what did he do in the playoffs" posts fall on deaf ears at least to me.

I dont care what Bob Cousy won when he didnt do it till Russell got there and I dont care what Oscar won with Kareem, or Tiny on the Celtics with Larry, or Tony Parker while Duncan is putting in work. I dont care what Westbrook does when Durant is dropping 40 twice a series or what Walt Frazier did with 6 hall of famers one of them the MVP.

I care to know....but im not gonna judge guys who had David West the same way.

Few points have had the big gap between them and their teams next most important player and just made it happen anyway. I dont expect Paul to do any more than most of the elites do when it all really falls on them.


Most of what great points did was while playing off superior players. Paul plays with one ill judge him by those standards.

That would make sense if I was doing that.

I think you have it backwards. It's the pro Paul side claiming certainty about him being better than guys like Kidd and Stockton. I'm not claiming that Kidd and Stockton are clearly better than Paul.

I'm saying that Paul hasn't done enough to separate himself from guys like that. When I evaluate them as just players...I don't look at Paul and see a player clearly better than Kidd was. In fact, I'd rather have Kidd as my guard in vacuum.

My argument is that if Paul wants to separate himself from that group...he has to do more. Which I think is more than fair.

But I'm still confused as to what the real argument is here...everyone outside of blatant trolls seem to have Paul somewhere in the top 10 pg's of all time.

I'd probably have him in the top 6 or so honestly if you made me rank them.

So who is really under-rating him? Who is really denying his greatness?

[1987_Lakers]

See. That is my point. And I agree by the way.

My response about the 2nd round stuff was that Paul needs something to separate himself from the players after Magic/Oscar...if someone were to say what you did above...I wouldn't bring that up because I don't know how to separate them either, but I think we all agree they are more or less on the same level.

If, however, someone wants to say Paul is the clear cut 2nd or 3rd best pg ever. I think it's more than valid to say that we simply haven't seen enough of him in the playoffs to separate him from the other guys in the top 10 or so.

That was my point.

What exactly did Oscar do in the playoffs before he started playing with Kareem?

[Young X]

It's not without context moron.1st of all, why are you calling me a moron? I never insulted you at all. Calm down. :oldlol:

It's not my logic at all. Stop acting like Paul has never had a chance to get out of the 2nd round. He has...he just didn't get it done. He either couldn't come through in a game 7 or was playing hurt or whatever excuse you want to throw out.I'd say he had one realistic chance in 2008. He lost to the defending champ Spurs that won the same amount of games as his team. He brought his team well beyond what anybody thought they could go and had a brilliant MVP caliber season up to that point. He didn't have the best game and didn't take over in the last minutes, but neither did players I know you rank much higher than Paul in the same situation. Lebron in 2010 for example was clearly better than Paul yet he fared worse in the same situation.

And I'm not just talking about stats, I'm talking about all around play. The combination of scoring, passing, efficiency, defense, rebounding, clutch play, skill is better than any of the PG's you mentioned and he sees no drop off in the playoffs despite facing really tough teams in the west every season. His contribution to his teams is the only thing he has control over and that's what I'm judging him by. Simple.

[DMAVS41]

1st of all, why are you calling me a moron? I never insulted you at all. Calm down. :oldlol:

I'd say he had one realistic chance in 2008. He lost to the defending champ Spurs that won the same amount of games as his team. He brought his team well beyond what anybody thought they could go and had a brilliant MVP caliber season up to that point. He didn't have the best game and didn't take over in the last minutes, but neither did players in the same situation that I know you rank much higher than Paul. Lebron in 2010 for example was clearly better than Paul yet he fared worse in the same situation.

And I'm not just talking about stats, I'm talking about all around play. The combination of scoring, passing, efficiency, defense, rebounding, clutch play, skill is better than any of the PG's you mentioned and he sees no drop off in the playoffs despite facing really tough teams in the west every season. His contribution to his teams is the only thing he has control over and that's what I'm judging him by. Simple.


And all around play does not equal better. I've already tried to explain this to you. Paul is clearly a better all around player in the qualities you listed than Jason Kidd...yet I'd take Kidd over Paul prime vs prime from what I've seen to date.

And I don't think it's remotely controversial to do so.

But again...nobody is refuting Paul's greatness. A blatant troll might, but that is it.

What is in dispute is whether or not Paul should be known as better than some of the guys mentioned. And I just don't think he should. You obviously do.

And if you don't think it's valid for me to want Paul to actually do something of significance in the most important games of his career...then this is pointless.


Again...this is about where you are ranking Paul...not me. I have no issue with what Kblaze has said and the range he ranks Paul. But that isn't what you are saying...you are now saying he's the clear cut 3rd best pg ever. And I just don't see how Paul is any better than Thomas, Stockton, Kidd, and Penny...and it's hard to gauge some players with the joke rules of this era. Nash was true greatness once the rules changed.

[Young X]

And all around play does not equal better. I've already tried to explain this to you. Paul is clearly a better all around player in the qualities you listed than Jason Kidd...yet I'd take Kidd over Paul prime vs prime from what I've seen to date.Can you please explain why besides "he got his team to the finals and Paul hasn't gotten past the 2nd round"?

Again...this is about where you are ranking Paul...not me. I have no issue with what Kblaze has said and the range he ranks Paul. But that isn't what you are saying...you are now saying he's the clear cut 3rd best pg ever. And I just don't see how Paul is any better than Thomas, Stockton, Kidd, and Penny...and it's hard to gauge some players with the joke rules of this era. Nash was true greatness once the rules changed.No. I said he's as good/better than the PG's not named Magic or Oscar which is exactly what he said also. I never said anything about "clear cut", someone like Payton or Nash could be ranked above him, nothing wrong with that.

[DMAVS41]

Can you please explain why besides "he got his team to the finals and Paul hasn't gotten past the 2nd round"?
No. I said he's as good/better than the PG's not named Magic or Oscar which is exactly what he said also. I never said anything about "clear cut", someone like Payton or Nash could be ranked above him, nothing wrong with that.

Why? Because I like how Kidd manages a game more than Paul. I think he makes his teammates better. I think Kidd was a far better defensive force as well...not just some shrug it off better defender....like played such good team defense that it's hard to score on them stuff.

Then who are you arguing with? Who is disrespecting Paul? Seems to me we all agree he's somewhere in the top 10 pg's ever and hasn't done enough to separate himself from guys like Kidd, Nash, Payton...etc.

[GoSpursGo1984]

What makes Paul better then someone like Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Walt Frazier, Bob Couy, Gary Payton before we talk about him with Stockton or Kidd he needs to differentiate himself from those players.

[Flash31]

You know DMAVS apart from stats what did DIRK do before the Finals most memorable moment was losing to an 8th seed FIRST ROUND after winning 67+ games and then choking up 2-0 and Wade went for 40,6,7 the next 4 games.

Without Tyson Chandler Dirk would just be known as a S-O-F-T jump shootin euro,no d,Big.


You're lumping team success and individual talent into one like it's the same.

Oscar Robertson,one of goat if not goat PGs and Players didn't win much but people recognize talent and aren't as supid as his "TEAM",keyword TEAM
didn't win.

You've clearly been watching espn too much LeBron's team,KD's team,CP3's team,Jodan's Bulls,and so on.

Contrary to popular belief Jordan didnt win jack,his team did,same with Magic,Kobe,Shaq,DIRK.

And when you're best player ws David West,and now Blake Griffin with DJ and Crawford compared to everybody else,come on.



Without a solid team unless you're Wilt Chamerlain,LeBron YOU ARE NOT GOING VERY FAR.
There's only so much a player can do.

Think about it,without Chandler,withouTerry getting hot from 3,and the whole Mavs team playing beyond expectations and what they usually peform,and without LJ playing like a 6th man,they don't win.

Without Chandler,the Mavs don't even make it to Finals.Dirk wasn't exactly putting up Wade 06 finals numbers ever,or MJ,Hakeem,Shaq performances.
It was as much team effort as there was one.


CP3 is the BEST PG in NBA and one of the GOAT pG in History.


Jordan,Bird,Wilt,Oscar,Kareem wre getting called goat before any finals,
Jordan went 6 years before sniffng a finals,Wiltis called GOAT andl he won twice,

Teams win,not players
CP3 asn't playing like LJ6th man in 11 finals that you can say it's his fault.
He put up 34/16 and STILL LOST,like WTF more can he do.
He single handidly went 'basically toe to toe with the Lakers in the playoffs not long ago



Though let me guess,he didn't have the will,the killer insinct,he couldnt lead his team to the win right?

[DMAVS41]

You know DMAVS apart from stats what did DIRK do before the Finalsmost memorable moment was losian 8th seed FIRST ROUND after winning 67+ games and then choking Hup 2-0 and Wade went for 40,6,7 the next 4 games.

Without Tyson Chandler Dirk would just be known as a S-O-F-Tump shootin euro,no d,Big.


You're lumping team success and individual talent into one like it's the same.

Oscar Robertson,one of goat if not goat PGs and Players didn't win much but people recognize talent and aren't as supid as his "TEAM",keyword TEAM
didn't win.

You're clearly teen watching espn too much LeBron's team,KD's team,CP3's team,Jodan's Bulls,and so on.

Contrary to popular belief Jordan didnt win jack,his team did,ame with Magic,Kobe,Shaell,DIRK.

And when you're best player ws David West,and now Bfin with DJ and Crawford compared to everybody else,come on.



Without a solid tanless you're Wilt Chamerlain,LeBron YOU ARE NOT GOING VERY FAR.
There's only so much a player can do.

Think about it,without Chandler,withouTerry getting hot from 3,and the whole Mavs team playing beyond expectations and what they ually peform,and without LJ playing like a 6th man,they don't win.

Without andler,the Mavs don't evee it to Finals.Dirk wasn't exactly putting up Wae 06 finals numbers ever,oJon,Hakeem,Shaq pperformances.
It was as much team effort as there was one.


CP3 is the EST PG in NBA and one of the GOAT G in History.


Jordan,Bird,Wilt,Oscar,Kareem wre getting cal before any finals,
Jodwent 6 year before sniffng a finals,Wiltis called GOAT andl twice,

Teams win,not players
CP3 asn't playing like LJ6th man in 11 finals that you can say it's his fault.
He pt up 34/16 and STILL LOST,like WTF more can he do.
He sigle handidly went 'basically toe to toe with the Lakers iplayoffs not lng ago



Though let me guess,he didn't have the will,the killer insinc,he couldnt lead his team to the win right?


What? I'll try to respond to the above chicken scratch.

Dirk led his team to 11 straight 50 win seasons. Had made the WCF 3 times. The finals twice. Led a team to 67 wins (one of the like 8 best records ever)...and with crap compared to the others in help. Won a MVP...

Not comparable at all. And was one of the best elimination game players in NBA history...while posting an undefeated record in game 7's...(5-0)...with three of those 5 games going for over 30/10. Including a 37/15 game against the Spurs at the peak of their powers on the road while making the game saving play to force overtime.

Not comparable. Dirk had done stuff before 2011 to get legend status. I really don't see how Paul not getting out of the 2nd round is remotely comparable to Dirk.

But whatever...

Not to mention the following;

Paul had Chandler! David West was better than Terry! Had Peja when he was still actually good!

LOL...

[GoSpursGo1984]

You know DMAVS apart from stats what did DIRK do before the Finalsmost memorable moment was losian 8th seed FIRST ROUND after winning 67+ games and then choking Hup 2-0 and Wade went for 40,6,7 the next 4 games.

Without Tyson Chandler Dirk would just be known as a S-O-F-Tump shootin euro,no d,Big.


You're lumping team success and individual talent into one like it's the same.

Oscar Robertson,one of goat if not goat PGs and Players didn't win much but people recognize talent and aren't as supid as his "TEAM",keyword TEAM
didn't win.

You're clearly teen watching espn too much LeBron's team,KD's team,CP3's team,Jodan's Bulls,and so on.

Contrary to popular belief Jordan didnt win jack,his team did,ame with Magic,Kobe,Shaell,DIRK.

And when you're best player ws David West,and now Bfin with DJ and Crawford compared to everybody else,come on.



Without a solid tanless you're Wilt Chamerlain,LeBron YOU ARE NOT GOING VERY FAR.
There's only so much a player can do.

Think about it,without Chandler,withouTerry getting hot from 3,and the whole Mavs team playing beyond expectations and what they ually peform,and without LJ playing like a 6th man,they don't win.

Without andler,the Mavs don't evee it to Finals.Dirk wasn't exactly putting up Wae 06 finals numbers ever,oJon,Hakeem,Shaq pperformances.
It was as much team effort as there was one.


CP3 is the EST PG in NBA and one of the GOAT G in History.


Jordan,Bird,Wilt,Oscar,Kareem wre getting cal before any finals,
Jodwent 6 year before sniffng a finals,Wiltis called GOAT andl twice,

Teams win,not players
CP3 asn't playing like LJ6th man in 11 finals that you can say it's his fault.
He pt up 34/16 and STILL LOST,like WTF more can he do.
He sigle handidly went 'basically toe to toe with the Lakers iplayoffs not lng ago



Though let me guess,he didn't have the will,the killer insinc,he couldnt lead his team to the win right?

David West was an All Star Player, Chandler a good defensive player and Peja a great shooter they may not had a great team but it was far from bad.

[Flash31]

What? I'll try to respond to the above chicken scratch.

Dirk led his team to 11 straight 50 win seasons. Had made the WCF 3 times. The finals twice. Led a team to 67 wins (one of the like 8 best records ever)...and with crap compared to the others in help. Won a MVP...

Not comparable at all. And was one of the best elimination game players in NBA history...while posting an undefeated record in game 7's...(5-0)...with three of those 5 games going for over 30/10. Including a 37/15 game against the Spurs at the peak of their powers on the road while making the game saving play to force overtime.

Not comparable. Dirk had done stuff before 2011 to get legend status. I really don't see how Paul not getting out of the 2nd round is remotely comparable to Dirk.

But whatever...


Yeah I mean,a team winning 60 plus games and 50 plus for 15 years is Dirk leading his team and not him having solid players.He put up LJ type stats right?

You're honestly comparing CP3's Hornets and Clippers teams to Dirk's Mavericks teams and think they're one and the same?

It'll be one thing if CP3 played below expectations or just his usual in the playoffs but he didn't.He upped his game and yet the teams still lost.

Hell just look at the 2011 finals and tell me Dirk had a great series and it WASN'T A GREAT Team effort.


You're confusing team,keyword TEAM Sucess with individual accomplishments.
It'll be like blaming LeBron for the Cavs losing to the Magic in 09 or Wil;t for losing to the Celtics.

Jordan,one of if not the GOAT Player EVER Didn't go very far without a solid good team,but you know it's just his fault right?


Dirk before the 2011 finals was seen as a soft jump shooting big.There were absolutely 0 talks or discussions of him even coming close to top 5 PF,much less one of the GOAT PF like some say now.

Stop confusing team success with individual accomplishments.

[Flash31]

David West was an All Star Player, Chandler a good defensive player and Peja a great shooter they may not had a great team but it was far from bad.

That's like saying Mo Williams was an all-star,Gibson a great shooter,Varejao a good double double machine,or Wade had a good team with former all-star Jermaine O'Neal and 19,8 avg Beasley with a great shooter in Posey,or
the Pistons are a good team with all-star J-Smith and good d big in drummond.


Compared to the teams in the West then,the NOH weren't as good.
And now on the Clippers,it is literally CP3 Carrying and Leading the team.Without CP3,the Clipps offense,playmaking are BEYOND AWFUL.

It's like OKC without DURANT or WB,good yes,winning against playoff contenders NO.

Without CP3,LAC would struggle to win 35-40 games,if that much less be a top 4 team in West.

And they weren't exactly healthy(West) in NO when CP3 was there and Chandler wasn't yet DPOY yet and Peja wasn't SAC 20 ppg scorer either now,come on.

[Nashty]

He had impact on his teams.

Hornets with Paul: 236-189 (.555)
Hornets without Paul: 29-38 (.433)

Clippers with Paul: 87-63 (.669)
Clippers without Paul: 9-9 (.500)

[DMAVS41]

Yeah I mean,a team winning 60 plus games and 50 plus for 15 years is Dirk leading his team and not him having solid players.He put up LJ type stats right?

You're honestly comparing CP3's Hornets and Clippers teams to Dirk's Mavericks teams and think they're one and the same?

It'll be one thing if CP3 played below expectations or just his usual in the playoffs but he didn't.He upped his game and yet the teams still lost.

Hell just look at the 2011 finals and tell me Dirk had a great series and it WASN'T A GREAT Team effort.


You're confusing team,keyword TEAM Sucess with individual accomplishments.
It'll be like blaming LeBron for the Cavs losing to the Magic in 09 or Wil;t for losing to the Celtics.

Jordan,one of if not the GOAT Player EVER Didn't go very far without a solid good team,but you know it's just his fault right?


Dirk before the 2011 finals was seen as a soft jump shooting big.There were absolutely 0 talks or discussions of him even coming close to top 5 PF,much less one of the GOAT PF like some say now.

Stop confusing team success with individual accomplishments.

I don't care what perception was. It's about reality. Reality is that Dirk did way more in his career pre 2011 than Paul has to date. It's not even remotely close.

And actually...look at Paul's Hornets team in 08. Don't you think it's silly propping up Terry/Chandler/Marion...etc?

I'll say it again. Paul had CHANDLER! He had David West who is just flat out better than Terry. He had Peja when he was good. That was a good team.

I just love it. Chandler and Terry are used against Dirk...but somehow Chandler and West aren't used against Paul? West was a 21/9/3 beast in the 08 playoffs that defended well. Easily better than 11 Terry...like not even close overall to be honest. Nobody would rather have Terry than West.

And I'm not even using that against Paul...I'm saying that in order for Paul to get on that legendary status...it's going to take doing something legendary. Like Paul dominating a game 7. Winning as an underdog...doing shit. Otherwise I see no reason to vault him over guys I feel were just as good.

[Replay32]

Yeah I mean,a team winning 60 plus games and 50 plus for 15 years is Dirk leading his team and not him having solid players.He put up LJ type stats right?

You're honestly comparing CP3's Hornets and Clippers teams to Dirk's Mavericks teams and think they're one and the same?

It'll be one thing if CP3 played below expectations or just his usual in the playoffs but he didn't.He upped his game and yet the teams still lost.

Hell just look at the 2011 finals and tell me Dirk had a great series and it WASN'T A GREAT Team effort.


You're confusing team,keyword TEAM Sucess with individual accomplishments.
It'll be like blaming LeBron for the Cavs losing to the Magic in 09 or Wil;t for losing to the Celtics.

Jordan,one of if not the GOAT Player EVER Didn't go very far without a solid good team,but you know it's just his fault right?


Dirk before the 2011 finals was seen as a soft jump shooting big.There were absolutely 0 talks or discussions of him even coming close to top 5 PF,much less one of the GOAT PF like some say now.

Stop confusing team success with individual accomplishments.

:applause:

Great Post.

Anyway CP3 is an absolute beast. One the greatest PG's I've seen in my lifetime.

And this thread (and thread title) is dumb.

[DMAVS41]

:applause:

Great Post.

Anyway CP3 is an absolute beast. One the greatest PG's I've seen in my lifetime.

And this thread (and thread title) is dumb.

:facepalm