What do you have to lose if you love God? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

IamRAMBO24

12-28-2013, 08:49 AM

What about the clear distinctions between various gods and their doctrines that they have bestowed upon the human race as a means to meet them in the afterlife?

Good point.

My definition of God means a universal spirtiual essence that permeates all of mankind. Mankind inteprets him based on his own image, but they all worship the same God, hence why I'm not big on a one sided religion (which I believe is antithetical to his intent) and just the idea his existence is out there and we should recognize it just because we don't know for sure Science can disprove it otherwise.

IamRAMBO24

12-28-2013, 08:49 AM

If there is a higher power or higher powers, I doubt very much they care if you do or do not believe in their exist. You're aware of the ant farm analogy, I'm sure.

If we created ants, of course we would care about them.

miller-time

12-28-2013, 09:23 AM

Why not just be safe and show a bit of respect for him? See it as a contigency plan.

How can you love or respect something if you don't believe in it? What if you manage to overcome that hurdle but end up loving a false god? It might be worse to love the wrong god than to abstain.

dr.hee

12-28-2013, 09:27 AM

How can you love or respect something if you don't believe in it? What if you manage to overcome that hurdle but end up loving a false god? It might be worse to love the wrong god than to abstain.

This. Also...how can you consciously decide to feel "love" for someone? Especially given the fact OP considers this a way to be "on the safe side". Dumb thread. Trolling, I know...but also just devoid of any sense at all.

cuad

12-28-2013, 09:31 AM

Learn some ****in' math. http://www.math.niu.edu/~richard/Math101/implies.pdf

Relevant statement:
Logicians have decided to take an "innocent until proven guilty" stance on this issue.

Im so nba'd out

12-28-2013, 09:42 AM

dr.hee

12-28-2013, 09:45 AM

If this is how you feel i don't believe you truly love GOD.I would be worried if i was you that doesn't sound like love at all.

OP's gonna burn in hell...

K Xerxes

12-28-2013, 09:51 AM

Read about Pascal's Wager OP. You have a lot to lose by going with this dumb strategy and hoping for the best.

dr.hee

12-28-2013, 09:55 AM

Read about Pascal's Wager OP. You have a lot to lose by going with this dumb strategy and hoping for the best.

Are there still people around who take Pascal's Wager seriously?

Kblaze8855

12-28-2013, 10:32 AM

You don't think that "god" would have the power to know your love is just you hedging your bets?

K Xerxes

12-28-2013, 11:13 AM

Are there still people around who take Pascal's Wager seriously?

Aside from OP? Loads. It crept up every once in a while in forums with a God debate that I was once a part of.

Hell some of the Christians that have tried to convert me IRL have resorted to this argument once their love bs is exhausted. If you know the two main flaws, it's easy to destroy.

It's come to the point where I pretty much consider it a litmus test for how well a person has thought about beliefs, like I would for someone's views about evolution etc.

nathanjizzle

12-28-2013, 12:00 PM

most people use religion to one up people

chosen_one6

12-28-2013, 01:05 PM

IamRAMBO24

12-28-2013, 01:11 PM

To answer the original question: your sanity.

I personally know people that have turned into religious zealots and talk to themselves on facebook about some god that they worship relentlessly. I'd delete them but besides their lunatic like rants they're ok people.

What if they're right and you're wrong? What if we don't truly die and our consciousness passes into a different realm where we will have to answer to God.

I think it is a very shallow view of reality to only see yourself as nothing more than a body.

Is He Ill

12-28-2013, 01:33 PM

What if they're right and you're wrong? What if we don't truly die and our consciousness passes into a different realm where we will have to answer to God.

I think it is a very shallow view of reality to only see yourself as nothing more than a body.

:oldlol: What if? So we should all just believe in God out of fear so that the batshit crazy overlord doesn't punish us for not bowing down to him, despite there being absolutely no evidence that it actually exists? Like taking out afterlife insurance? Nah, I'm not wasting time trying to please an imaginary entity. If religious nutbags actually turned out to be correct, I would simply be dumbstruck at how asinine the creator of the universe is. I actually am open to the possibility of there being some kind of higher power. If anything, I'm probably a pantheist. That said, you're advocating Pascal's Wager and that is just ridiculous.

Scholar

12-28-2013, 02:35 PM

Myth

12-28-2013, 02:39 PM

Read about Pascal's Wager OP. You have a lot to lose by going with this dumb strategy and hoping for the best.

Was going to bring this up if somebody else did not.

pauk

12-28-2013, 03:03 PM

So OP, do tell: what God do you think we should believe in to be on the "safe side"? Is it the Jewish God? Is it the Muslim God? Is it the Christian God? Is it the Catholic God? Should we believe in Zeus just to avoid disrespecting him?

I mean, there are just so many gods to choose from... Which one should I go with? Should I love them all to keep all bases covered? Because I'd love to be on the 'safe side' (whatever that means). I just need an enlightened path set before me. I'm a mindless sheep just like the rest of 'em, so please tell me where to go!

All those religions essentially believe in the same one and only god and same things, they just differ somewhat in details.... even in Islam, "Allah" is only an arabic word for God... same gray haired dude in white pyjamas Christians believe in, they believe in Jesus aswell, lots of Islam is based on Jesus "enlightment", but they believe in him as a prophet just like Mohammed etc.... they are not so super different religions... same goes with those other religions....

You could go with any of those religions you mentioned and you will be safe.... just be a good guy, dont become some psychotic extremist and you will be good.. :P

MavsSuperFan

12-28-2013, 03:15 PM

I'm not talking about loving religion; I'm talking about the idea of loving God.

If you have a scientfic mind and refuse to believe what you can't prove, then why not love God for the hell of it because you can't disprove him either? Either way you're going to die, so how would you know if he exist or not? Why not just be safe and show a bit of respect for him? See it as a contigency plan.

Because in practice a belief in god deters scientific progress.

Atheism among elite scientists is far more prevalent than among the general population

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oxTMUTOz0w
The Erosion of Progress by Religions

Here Neil deGrasse Tyson explains why so many stars have arabic names, and how islam allowed white europeans to overtake the arab world scientifically.

The original sin in the bible was when eve ate a fruit from the tree of knowledge... The bible is basically teaching that the greatest sin is to search for knowledge.

Swaggin916

12-28-2013, 03:46 PM

What do you have to gain?

Hmm the apple and knowledge thing is interesting... One would like to think the elite weren't just hoarding all the knowledge and money (therefore power) and deterring others from trying to get it, but it definitely seems that way.

Edit: Oh yea it was called the tree of knowledge... I mean how obvious can you get? Bunch of bastards.

Scholar

12-28-2013, 03:51 PM

pauk

12-28-2013, 04:46 PM

I'm already aware of all that.
I grew up a Muslim.

Ah ok, cool, where are you from? I am from Bosnia/Croatia, catholic/muslim parents, aint actively religious at all though... well, i dont eat pork... :P

OhNoTimNoSho

12-28-2013, 05:20 PM

chosen_one6

12-28-2013, 06:15 PM

What if they're right and you're wrong? What if we don't truly die and our consciousness passes into a different realm where we will have to answer to God.

I think it is a very shallow view of reality to only see yourself as nothing more than a body.

I don't worry about what if's. I worry about what I can control, which is my body and where I go in life.

It's funny to me that people have to have some sort of religion or god to justify moral behavior. I'm a generally good person (we all make mistakes) and I've never believed in any higher being, despite it being forced down my throat as a child (which I think is wrong.)

This whole concept of fearing a god so you don't go to some horrible afterlife is meant to keep the sheep that believe that BS in their lanes.

Scholar

12-28-2013, 07:49 PM

Ah ok, cool, where are you from? I am from Bosnia/Croatia, catholic/muslim parents, aint actively religious at all though... well, i dont eat pork... :P

California.
I'm not religious at all (in fact, the complete opposite) but for whatever reason I cannot eat pork. I guess it's been instilled in my brain so much that now even after denouncing my religious affiliations I still find myself preferring being hungry over eating pork. Weird. It's a running joke with my Atheist in-laws now.

K Xerxes

12-28-2013, 08:07 PM

All those religions essentially believe in the same one and only god and same things, they just differ somewhat in details.... even in Islam, "Allah" is only an arabic word for God... same gray haired dude in white pyjamas Christians believe in, they believe in Jesus aswell, lots of Islam is based on Jesus "enlightment", but they believe in him as a prophet just like Mohammed etc.... they are not so super different religions... same goes with those other religions....

You could go with any of those religions you mentioned and you will be safe.... just be a good guy, dont become some psychotic extremist and you will be good.. :P

All those 'same' religions = the three Abrahamic ones. And I honestly doubt that Jews and Christians believe that their 'successors' believe in the same God. Only Muslims believe that all three believe in the exact same God, with the Torah and Gospels being barstardised versions of the Qur'an.

Now, you've got how many other religions that aren't Abrahamic? Polytheistic ones? What about religions that died off? Hell, can you be sure that the true religion is one that has been revealed to mankind?

What about a God who values logic and rationality, and thus decides to throw those who believe in God to hell for having 'faith' while rewarding atheists heaven for using common sense. I mean, it's possible.

There is an infinite amount of supreme beings who *could* exist and they may all use different criteria for reward and punishment (if at all). Probability says that it's not worth wasting your life believing in a specific God for that reason. If you're gonna believe, fine, just don't let it be Pascal's Wager.

gigantes

12-28-2013, 08:22 PM

there are specific meditations based on sending out love (or metta) to the cosmos and/or receiving love from the cosmos. no middle-god required.

of course it takes practice, effort and learned skill, but my sense is that such a thing truly does strengthen a person in mind and body.

the point is that it seems artificial and strained at first. that's the part you have to work through over time.

Inactive

12-28-2013, 08:26 PM

All those 'same' religions = the three Abrahamic ones. And I honestly doubt that Jews and Christians believe that their 'successors' believe in the same God. Only Muslims believe that all three believe in the exact same God, with the Torah and Gospels being barstardised versions of the Qur'an. They all recognize that they worship the God of Abraham. It would be pretty hard to argue that they worship different gods, given that they all share the old testament.

Josh

12-28-2013, 08:28 PM

The sun rises providing natural life giving light and I look at the world around it. I marvel at the splendor of the universe; the night sky above me and the stars it encompasses. I Adore love, and while I do not feel the same about death, hate or any other evil within this place, I do understand it and why it exists. I look at the good, and the bad. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I love the creative being that created it all. I call Him God. You can call him whatever you choose. I love Him, and if that means I have to lose something in order to gain the bond only Him and I share, then so be it.

-p.tiddy-

12-28-2013, 08:37 PM

To answer the original question: your sanity.

I personally know people that have turned into religious zealots and talk to themselves on facebook about some god that they worship relentlessly. I'd delete them but besides their lunatic like rants they're ok people.
Yeah there are religious nut jobs but on average those without any spiritual beliefs are less"sane" and more likely to suffer from depression or commit suicide.

Spirtuality is even used to heal some mental disorders.

Believing in a higher power has shown to be better for mental health than not believing.

Josh

12-28-2013, 08:38 PM

This. Also...how can you consciously decide to feel "love" for someone? Especially given the fact OP considers this a way to be "on the safe side". Dumb thread. Trolling, I know...but also just devoid of any sense at all.

Stop being so negative. Sure-shot atheist attribute right there. Someone says something about God, etc and you (the common atheist) will do anything to tear it down. God must be on your mind a lot, hard. You post in every single thread/discussion/debate there is about God, etc. It's OK, I'm guilty of it too. God has mind-raped the both of us.

Let me ask you this... since you don't believe in God, why do you find your way into every single God discussion? You find all this "God stuff" very interesting. Now why would someone spend so much time on something they entirely don't believe in?

:confusedshrug:

You call things such as this thread, dumb or trolling but if it weren't for these threads you'd have little to do. The short while I've known you or seen you post any or damn near all of it has been God bashing. I think it's a bit obvious, like many atheists, you say you don't believe in God, but you're endlessly searching for validation of there being no God at all. You simply just won't quit until God has been proven to not exist.

Until then, you'll keep searching. You viewing and posting in these types of threads is a small but crucial means of you validating (or just feeling better / more confident). You think showing off some false sense of mental prowess as you discredit God or the existence of Him will somehow bring you one inch closer to your goal. You don't think of this in your mind on a conscience level, but if you really, really think about it, that's exactly what's going on.

You can reply in here and deny it all you want to, but it's obvious.

Josh

12-28-2013, 08:40 PM

most people use religion to one up people

Most people use atheism to one up people.

K Xerxes

12-28-2013, 08:44 PM

They all recognize that they worship the God of Abraham. It would be pretty hard to argue that they worship different gods, given that they all share the old testament.

Take Christians and Muslims.

Muslims believe that the Gospels was once the word of God but has been changed for various reasons (editing, translation etc etc). Thus now it's not the absolute word of God, but the scripture still represents the teachings of the same God.

Christianity came first, so it would seem as if Islam is just a copy of Christianity (and Judaism) with major differences inserted for whatever reason. It was never the same. Hell, some Christians even believe that Islam is the work of the devil, and that Muslims are worshipping the devil.

See the difference?

Yeah there are religious nut jobs but on average those without any spiritual beliefs are less"sane" and more likely to suffer from depression or commit suicide.

Spirtuality is even used to heal some mental disorders.

Believing in a higher power has shown to be better for mental health than not believing.

Where is the evidence for this bullshit?

miller-time

12-28-2013, 09:02 PM

Where is the evidence for this bullshit?

I think it is one of those correlation causation things. It isn't the religious belief itself that helps but rather the sense of belonging and community that comes along with it.

K Xerxes

12-28-2013, 09:09 PM

I think it is one of those correlation causation things. It isn't the religious belief itself that helps but rather the sense of belonging and community that comes along with it.

For sure, but I'd like to see some solid evidence that:

1) Those without any spiritual beliefs are more likely to suffer from depression or commit suicide.

2) Spirtuality can heal some mental disorders.

3) Believing in a higher power has shown to be better for mental health than not believing.

First of all.

dr.hee

12-28-2013, 09:16 PM

I think it is one of those correlation causation things. It isn't the religious belief itself that helps but rather the sense of belonging and community that comes along with it.

There's not too much research on the variables that mediate the relationship between religiosity and mental health. But I like your idea of a sense of belonging having a positive influence. What I don't know is if there are studies comparing affiliation with a religious community ( e.g. going to church regularly) and other social activities regarding their positive influence on stuff like clinical depression and so on.

I could also imagine rigidly following certain religious doctrines having a positive impact. Say you're a bit on the conservative/fundamentalist side and really take your holy book literally. Makes sense to me that certain rules are more persuasive when you literally think there's a bearded dude above you who'll punish you for the tiniest shit. Could be one of the advantages of believing the most outlandish stuff...you won't do some unhealthy things because of peer pressure and maybe just fear of punishment from sky daddy.

Josh

12-28-2013, 09:18 PM

For sure, but I'd like to see some solid evidence that:

1) Those without any spiritual beliefs are more likely to suffer from depression or commit suicide.

2) Spirtuality can heal some mental disorders.

3) Believing in a higher power has shown to be better for mental health than not believing.

First of all.

"Prove this!" ... "Prove that!"

Gosh, can't you just be a good little boi and believe in magic like the rest of normal society? If someone had a neat shinny piece of paper that said if you jumped off the Empire State Building you'd live you'd probably be the first one to take the plunge.

You don't think spirituality in some cases heals or corrects some mental disorders? Seriously? Sure it's not the end all be all for everyone's mental disorder, but for some it works. Please, don't be so shallow minded you need some mental health text book to tell you that in writing before you'll believe it.

Josh

12-28-2013, 09:20 PM

Show me proof there's a gay gene and that homosexuals have no personal choice in their sexual orientation.

Inactive

12-28-2013, 09:26 PM

Is He Ill

12-28-2013, 09:38 PM

Yeah there are religious nut jobs but on average those without any spiritual beliefs are less"sane" and more likely to suffer from depression or commit suicide.

Spirtuality is even used to heal some mental disorders.

Believing in a higher power has shown to be better for mental health than not believing.

I can see that. I don't know if those statements are backed by solid evidence, but, in my experience, the belief in a higher power definitely provides hope for certain people. That said, no matter how hard I try, I would never be able to convince myself that there is a higher power that I can communicate with.

pauk

12-28-2013, 10:16 PM

Take Christians and Muslims.

Muslims believe that the Gospels was once the word of God but has been changed for various reasons (editing, translation etc etc). Thus now it's not the absolute word of God, but the scripture still represents the teachings of the same God.

Christianity came first, so it would seem as if Islam is just a copy of Christianity (and Judaism) with major differences inserted for whatever reason. It was never the same. Hell, some Christians even believe that Islam is the work of the devil, and that Muslims are worshipping the devil.

See the difference?

Where is the evidence for this bullshit?

Interesting, yea, but all muslims today have roots to either christianity or judaism or polytheism. Depending on where you are coming from... arabs/middle-easterns for example were entirely polytheistic or christians/jewish before Islam, there are still very many arabic christians or even arabic christian countries in middle-east like Syria, Lebanon and Palestine somewhat.... once Islam came it spread into other parts of the world, Islam here in Balkan for example we got it i believe from the turks/ottomans, we were 100% christians or somewhat agnostic before that as all slavs were/are, not even that long time ago actually... thats why in Balkan Islam is extremly different from the middle-east due to the culture/past, you wouldnt be able to see a difference between a christian/muslim, i mean the women are not covered and so on (scarf/"hijab" is actually a cultural thing, just like christians in mexico run around with sombreros lol)...

gigantes

12-28-2013, 10:18 PM

There's not too much research on the variables that mediate the relationship between religiosity and mental health. But I like your idea of a sense of belonging having a positive influence. What I don't know is if there are studies comparing affiliation with a religious community ( e.g. going to church regularly) and other social activities regarding their positive influence on stuff like clinical depression and so on.

I could also imagine rigidly following certain religious doctrines having a positive impact. Say you're a bit on the conservative/fundamentalist side and really take your holy book literally. Makes sense to me that certain rules are more persuasive when you literally think there's a bearded dude above you who'll punish you for the tiniest shit. Could be one of the advantages of believing the most outlandish stuff...you won't do some unhealthy things because of peer pressure and maybe just fear of punishment from sky daddy.
good thoughts.

i think much of what you say can be articulated / supplemented / completed via pondering what functions we HSS's evolved to perform best.

now of course, very few do this... often preferring to hammer themselves on the rocks of the technology of civilisation... competing with people who've locked themselves in to boxes... often academically for a separate set of reasons.

but the question remains-- what functions did our current minds and bodies evolve to perform? and is such in any conflict with modern civ?

K Xerxes

12-28-2013, 10:38 PM

Christians believe pretty much the same thing about the old testament.
Christians and Jews consider Muhammed to be a false prophet. Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet, but not an incarnation of God. Jews consider Jesus to be either a prophet, or a false prophet, rather than the messiah, or an incarnation of God.

But they all recognize that the God to whom those (false)prophets are purporting to speak is YHWH. And they all revere the old testament patriarchs, and prophets.

I see where you're coming from here. Having said that, it hardly makes a difference to my initial point that Pascal's Wager is rubbish. Nor does it take into account the possibility that God may want his believers to follow exact commandments rather than just believing in him.

"Prove this!" ... "Prove that!"

Gosh, can't you just be a good little boi and believe in magic like the rest of normal society? If someone had a neat shinny piece of paper that said if you jumped off the Empire State Building you'd live you'd probably be the first one to take the plunge.

You don't think spirituality in some cases heals or corrects some mental disorders? Seriously? Sure it's not the end all be all for everyone's mental disorder, but for some it works. Please, don't be so shallow minded you need some mental health text book to tell you that in writing before you'll believe it.

I come from a scientific (medical) background and have looked into mental health quite a bit. While it is true that there is a bunch of stuff we don't understand about mental health (the brain & nervous system is possibly the most complicated thing... in the universe), that doesn't mean we chalk it up to Goddidit. It's far more plausible that there is a placebo effect to spirituality (if there is any proven correlation at all), but that doesn't mean that it is right. If deluding yourself that there is something out there makes you feel better, go for it.

Show me proof there's a gay gene and that homosexuals have no personal choice in their sexual orientation.

So much wrong in only one sentence...

I can't be bothered to explain why proof does not and cannot exist in science, so I'll assume you mean 'evidence' here.

No credible scientist espouses the idea of a 'gay gene'. Genetics rarely works on the basis of Mendellian concepts (i.e. one gene for one phenotype), even though that's probably what you learnt at school. The genetic basis for a phenotype will be polygenic... and even then, you're probably going to get a mix of environment and genetics (as a side note on this, look up epigenetics). Sexuality probably works in the same way. It's probably worth considering sexual orientation as a scale with multiple different genes and other environmental factors moving the slider up and down slightly.

And the reason scientists haven't found specific genes for homosexuality is because it's almost ****ing impossible to pinpoint specific genes. One may mask the other, or influence the other through a series of intermediates etc etc.

ROCSteady

12-28-2013, 10:39 PM

Both the mental health field and the religion that is organized and conducted through a human mouthpiece require a leap of faith to accept what the 'expert' either doctor/psychiatrist or preacher/pastor are trying to save you with. Both environments are highly subjective and work better on people that are looking to be fed solutions rather than rely on individual critical analysis.

In short, I don't trust either arena that are commonly the avenues to save people from themselves.

Scholar

12-28-2013, 10:50 PM

What do I have to lose if I love God?

My self-respect.

SpecialQue

12-28-2013, 10:55 PM

Jackass18

12-28-2013, 11:44 PM

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lf4rof2DZD1qauafro1_500.gif

You stand to lose everything

MavsSuperFan

12-28-2013, 11:48 PM

Show me proof there's a gay gene and that homosexuals have no personal choice in their sexual orientation.
Even if people arent born gay, its obviously not a choice.

No one chooses a life where they will be hated by their parents, community, etc.

There are gay people in countries where they are stoned to death. Why would anyone choose to do that?

miller-time

12-29-2013, 12:54 AM

It's hilarious when kids are really into their religion and start using those hoary old tricks that have been used for decades and pretend that they came up with them. It's like when someone loses their virginity and then starts talking like they've mastered the art of pleasuring a woman.

In fairness, it's equally funny when jackasses take a philosophy 101 course and start tearing into the bible.

But that happens with atheists too. When I was a kid I would spout nonsense all day about how ridiculous religion is and that. I think religious or atheist most people mellow with age and experience. Unfortunately for both sides some do not.

SpecialQue

12-29-2013, 01:51 AM

But that happens with atheists too. When I was a kid I would spout nonsense all day about how ridiculous religion is and that. I think religious or atheist most people mellow with age and experience. Unfortunately for both sides some do not.

I agree with this.

97 bulls

12-29-2013, 03:27 AM

Because in practice a belief in god deters scientific progress.

Atheism among elite scientists is far more prevalent than among the general population

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oxTMUTOz0w
The Erosion of Progress by Religions

Here Neil deGrasse Tyson explains why so many stars have arabic names, and how islam allowed white europeans to overtake the arab world scientifically.

The original sin in the bible was when eve ate a fruit from the tree of knowledge... The bible is basically teaching that the greatest sin is to search for knowledge.
Actually, it was called the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It had nothing to do with God attempting to eliminate humans ability to learn.

97 bulls

12-29-2013, 03:36 AM

I do believe in God. But I don't worship him in fear of dying. Simply because were not worthy. I worship God because I appreciate how much he has blessed me.

miller-time

12-29-2013, 03:42 AM

I do believe in God. But I don't worship him in fear of dying. Simply because were not worthy. I worship God because I appreciate how much he has blessed me.

Blessed you how?

97 bulls

12-29-2013, 03:46 AM

Blessed you how?
Life.

gigantes

12-29-2013, 04:12 AM

uh.... saint jeffery just enabled the old avatars?

cause for ce-e-elebrate, my friend?

gigantes

12-29-2013, 04:15 AM

Life.
your degenerate god can kiss my ass and apologise especially for creating sorry sacks of hypnotised excrement such as yourself.

i mean, if you don't mind. very politely. :cheers:

97 bulls

12-29-2013, 04:23 AM

your degenerate god can kiss my ass and apologise especially for creating sorry sacks of hypnotised excrement such as yourself.

i mean, if you don't mind. very politely. :cheers:
Id like to know, what was the reason for this post? I mean, you've gone way past questioning the validity of a deity. And went straight into hate. And no part of society should accept that.

Theres something wrong with you.

miller-time

12-29-2013, 04:23 AM

Life.

Lots of people have lives that suck, life in itself is not a blessing.

gigantes

12-29-2013, 04:40 AM

Id like to know, what was the reason for this post? I mean, you've gone way past questioning the validity of a deity. And went straight into hate. And no part of society should accept that.

Theres something wrong with you.
so are you attempting to ask me something or attempting to judge me for something...?

by your own remarks, you sound pretty confused.

maybe you need more god in your life?

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 04:52 AM

:oldlol: What if? So we should all just believe in God out of fear so that the batshit crazy overlord doesn't punish us for not bowing down to him, despite there being absolutely no evidence that it actually exists? Like taking out afterlife insurance? Nah, I'm not wasting time trying to please an imaginary entity. If religious nutbags actually turned out to be correct, I would simply be dumbstruck at how asinine the creator of the universe is. I actually am open to the possibility of there being some kind of higher power. If anything, I'm probably a pantheist. That said, you're advocating Pascal's Wager and that is just ridiculous.

Idiots like you don't understand what true Science is about.

Science is a search for knowledge, which means, the purpose of Science is to disprove what is known to be true. What is known to be true can't be a fact of certainty because even Science itself is a product of the mind since it starts with a theory (a by product of the mind). Einstein with the aid of a philosopher (Karl Popper) established this as the new foundation of seeking truth.

So new premise:

1. So if you can't disprove the existence of a God, how do you know for sure he doesn't exist?

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 04:56 AM

What do I have to lose if I love God?

My self-respect.

Respect of what? Your intelligence?

Personally I find those with a materialistic view of reality (which has already been disproven) to be behind the times.

Reality is consciousness, not body. Fact. For a scholar, you sure are lacking in the intellectual department.

miller-time

12-29-2013, 05:06 AM

Reality is consciousness, not body. Fact. For a scholar, you sure are lacking in the intellectual department.

Consciousness manifests itself from the body. It is a mechanism that allows an organism (composed of physical matter) to navigate reality and posses an advantage over other organisms with inferior or no sentience. Conscious experience is an approximation of certain aspects of reality that are important to the organism, it fits in to reality as opposed to creating it.

Trentknicks

12-29-2013, 05:07 AM

Idiots like you don't understand what true Science is about.

Science is a search for knowledge, which means, the purpose of Science is to disprove what is known to be true. What is known to be true can't be a fact of certainty because even Science itself is a product of the mind since it starts with a theory (a by product of the mind). Einstein with the aid of a philosopher (Karl Popper) established this as the new foundation of seeking truth.

So new premise:

1. So if you can't disprove the existence of a God, how do you know for sure he doesn't exist?
I flew to the moon last night, can you prove I didn't?

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 05:10 AM

Consciousness manifests itself from the body. It is a mechanism that allows an organism (composed of physical matter) to navigate reality and posses an advantage over other organisms with inferior or no sentience. Conscious experience is an approximation of certain aspects of reality that are important to the organism, it fits in to reality as opposed to creating it.

Consciousness manifests itself from the body? Wow talk about ancient knowledge. This is full proof education and Science has failed miserably revealing truth.

Consciousness creates the body, not the other way around. If you really want to take on this argument, go right ahead .. just make sure you do your homework before you engage any further.

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 05:11 AM

I flew to the moon last night, can you prove I didn't?

Absolutely .. with the right kind of NSA data tracking, I can pinpoint where you were last night, which space shuttle launched off, and not to mention, your broke a*s can't even fly to the next state, let alone the moon.

travelingman

12-29-2013, 05:17 AM

just make sure you do your homework before you engage any further.

Yes, you've learned this lesson before, I'm sure. Probably from that time you ventured into a thread composed of educated posters debating the George Zimmerman trial and posted this golden nugget: "Trayvon's lawyer is probably some sh*tty public defender"

#NeverForget

Trentknicks

12-29-2013, 05:18 AM

Absolutely .. with the right kind of NSA data tracking, I can pinpoint where you were last night, which space shuttle launched off, and not to mention, your broke a*s can't even fly to the next state, let alone the moon.
Think about it this way, if it turns out that their is no god, how much time of your life have you wasted? You act as if atheists are the ones missing out on life and that our life isn't as purposeful. If anything, our life is more purposeful. We don't believe in an afterlife and have everything to live for.

There are so many religions in the world that dictate if you don't follow them you're going to hell. Seeing as you can't be a member of all of them, doesn't that mean theoretically if they are true we are all going to hell? Besides, if God is as forgiving and merciless as all the zealots would have you believe, I'm sure he would forgive us for not believing, and send us on our way up to heaven.

miller-time

12-29-2013, 05:20 AM

Consciousness creates the body, not the other way around. If you really want to take on this argument, go right ahead .. just make sure you do your homework before you engage any further.

So organisms with simple or no nervous systems create their bodies how?

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 05:28 AM

So organisms with simple or no nervous systems create their bodies how?

Start with Berkeley, then move on to Hume, end with Kant, and use Popper as a stepping stone.

Even Einstein had to concede with the philosophers and created a whole new foundation of Science (falsification of objective reality) because he knew full well they were right and he can't prove them wrong.

It is pathetic wannabe Scienctists like you are laying claim you are superior to Einstein.

travelingman

12-29-2013, 05:30 AM

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 05:34 AM

Think about it this way, if it turns out that their is no god, how much time of your life have you wasted? You act as if atheists are the ones missing out on life and that our life isn't as purposeful. If anything, our life is more purposeful. We don't believe in an afterlife and have everything to live for.

There are so many religions in the world that dictate if you don't follow them you're going to hell. Seeing as you can't be a member of all of them, doesn't that mean theoretically if they are true we are all going to hell? Besides, if God is as forgiving and merciless as all the zealots would have you believe, I'm sure he would forgive us for not believing, and send us on our way up to heaven.

Stick to the premise dumbsh*t. The first line I said was "NOT THE LOVE OF RELIGION ..."

There is a difference between the love of religion (a bias perspective) and the love of God (a universal perspective).

I like how idiots like you keep downplaying my premise by attacking religion when I have clearly defined my intent in my first argument.

Trentknicks

12-29-2013, 05:36 AM

Stick to the premise dumbsh*t. The first line I said was "NOT THE LOVE OF RELIGION ..."

There is a difference between the love of religion (a bias perspective) and the love of God (a universal perspective).

I like how idiots like you keep downplaying my premise by attacking religion when I have clearly defined my intent in my first argument.
You viewpoints and anger over an internet forum clearly show your quite unstable. I could waste time in debating with you, but then i'd just be wasting my time.

miller-time

12-29-2013, 05:40 AM

Start with Berkeley, then move on to Hume, end with Kant, and use Popper as a stepping stone.

Even Einstein had to concede with the philosophers and created a whole new foundation of Science (falsification of objective reality) because he knew full well they were right and he can't prove them wrong.

It is pathetic wannabe Scienctists like you are laying claim you are superior to Einstein.

This isn't anything. It is just a list of philosophers, a half statement about objective reality, and a claim that I am claiming to be superior to Einstein - someone that I haven't mentioned up until this point.

Instead of deflecting the question by directing me to non-specific works of various 18th or 19th century philosophers why don't you lay down your sage knowledge and tell me how organisms without complex nervous systems exist in reality if they themselves do not posses consciousness?

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 05:42 AM

You viewpoints and anger over an internet forum clearly show your quite unstable. I could waste time in debating with you, but then i'd just be wasting my time.

Ad hoc.

I presented a strong premise and you're just copping out of it. Take it on if you have the intellectual capacity to do so .. of course, do your research, read every topic you can google, and ponder it for a month or so before you respond. Thanks.

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 05:43 AM

This isn't anything. It is just a list of philosophers, a half statement about objective reality, and a claim that I am claiming to be superior to Einstein - someone that I haven't mentioned up until this point.

Instead of deflecting the question by directing me to non-specific works of various 18th or 19th century philosophers why don't you lay down your sage knowledge and tell me how organisms without complex nervous systems exist in reality if they themselves do not posses consciousness?

Like I said, do your homework before you respond and stop asking stupid questions. Thanks.

travelingman

12-29-2013, 05:48 AM

Like I said, do your homework before you respond and stop asking stupid questions. Thanks.

Avoiding the issue

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 05:53 AM

Avoiding the issue

Being a troll.

How can I possibly further the discussion if they can't even do the proper research? They are basically asking me to be their 5th grade elementary teacher; I mean how the f*ck are you going to be challenging someone when you can't even take on their premise?

travelingman

12-29-2013, 05:56 AM

Being a troll.

How can I possibly further the discussion if they can't even do the proper research? They are basically asking me to be their 5th grade elementary teacher; I mean how the f*ck are you going to be challenging someone when you can't even take on their premise?

Respond to the following point made by miller-time:

"So organisms with simple or no nervous systems create their bodies how?"

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 06:00 AM

Respond to the following point made by miller-time:

"So organisms with simple or no nervous systems create their bodies how?"

He challenged my premise. I would expect him to know his sh*t. I don't feel like being a panzy a*s teacher and teaching him sh*t he should already know before he took on the premise.

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 06:11 AM

And trust me, Miller is completely lost and can't come up with a proper rebuttal (other than ad hocs) as we speak. My guess is he'll prob copy and paste a semi intellectual counter argument and claim it as his own.

This is usually the last resort for those who don't know what the hell they are talking about.

miller-time

12-29-2013, 06:16 AM

He challenged my premise. I would expect him to know his sh*t. I don't feel like being a panzy a*s teacher and teaching him sh*t he should already know before he took on the premise.

Because you never established your premise. You made a claim and called it fact. I quote:

Reality is consciousness, not body. Fact. For a scholar, you sure are lacking in the intellectual department.

If someone challenges your premise you then either rise to the occasion and demonstrate your claim or you admit you are too lazy to do so. You don't tell people to read a couple of hundred years of philosophy and hope that will solve everything.

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 06:19 AM

Because you never established your premise. You made a claim and called it fact. I quote:

If someone challenges your premise you then either rise to the occasion and demonstrate your claim or you admit you are too lazy to do so. You don't tell people to read a couple of hundred years of philosophy and hope that will solve everything.

Disprove my claim then. Period. If you know what you are talking about, then present your argument to counter this claim.

That's how intellectual conversations work homeboy. Stop copping out and asking me to be your teacher.

travelingman

12-29-2013, 06:27 AM

miller-time

12-29-2013, 06:34 AM

Disprove my claim then. Period. If you know what you are talking about, then present your argument to counter this claim.

That's how intellectual conversations work homeboy. Stop copping out and asking me to be your teacher.

What do you think my question about organisms without complex nervous systems was countering to? You stated consciousness manifests reality, I demonstrated organisms that exist within reality but do not possess consciousnesses and that consciousness is a by-product of the evolutionary process (i.e. the body (and reality) exists before the mind).

dr.hee

12-29-2013, 07:49 AM

Here is my claim...

http://imageshack.us/a/img152/9988/kobe.gif

Anybody wanna disprove that?

97 bulls

12-29-2013, 10:15 AM

Lots of people have lives that suck, life in itself is not a blessing.
And more often than not if it sucks, its due to their own decisions. I guarantee if they only strived to adhere to Bible standards set for us, it wouldn't be as bad.

97 bulls

12-29-2013, 10:21 AM

so are you attempting to ask me something or attempting to judge me for something...?

by your own remarks, you sound pretty confused.

maybe you need more god in your life?
I didn't attempt anything. And I'm definitely not your judge. I plainly stated that your post was uncalled for and ignorant. Because you had no reason to respond in such a flippant manner.

I didn't say God was going to get you or punish you. Or say your gonna die in a fiery Hell forever if you don't convert.

97 bulls

12-29-2013, 10:29 AM

He challenged your claim.

"So organisms with simple or no nervous systems create their bodies how?"
I believe a better question is how did this all begin? We can answer how it continues, but how it began? Thats where it gets crazy.

dr.hee

12-29-2013, 10:33 AM

And more often than not if it sucks, its due to their own decisions. I guarantee if they only strived to adhere to Bible standards set for us, it wouldn't be as bad.

Any evidence for that?

I mean come on, most humans that ever existed were never even given the opportunity to live and make good/bad decision due to our reproductive system being flawed to a degree where the majority of people gets aborted by nature before they're even born. And that's not speculation, but a biological fact. And only go back in time a few thousand years...for the lucky ones that make it out of their mother's womb, infant mortality will reach an unheard percentage as well. In short...nature itself has killed far more innocent human life than all wars we could even possibly fight against each other. That's simple math, whether you like it or not. Do humans f*ck up a lot? Of course we do. But creation itself isn't doing much better. And I haven't even started on other species that suffer as well.

If you want to be in for a special treat, just google a few things like maybe Anencephaly and tell me where exacly the blessing is in life that is suffering miserably from just having bad luck in the genetic lottery you all loving god is forcing us all to play...and the Christian narrative of God able and willing to personally impregnate a woman to have a healthy child makes this even more cynical.

97 bulls

12-29-2013, 10:45 AM

Any evidence for that?

I mean come on, most humans that ever existed were never even given the opportunity to live and make good/bad decision due to our reproductive system being flawed to a degree where the majority of people gets aborted by nature before they're even born. And that's not speculation, but a biological fact. And only go back in time a few thousand years...for the lucky ones that make it out of their mother's womb, infant mortality will reach an unheard percentage as well. In short...nature itself has killed far more innocent human life than all wars we could even possibly fight against each other. That's simple math, whether you like it or not. Do humans f*ck up a lot? Of course we do. But creation itself isn't doing much better. And I haven't even started on other species that suffer as well.

If you want to be in for a special treat, just google a few things like maybe Anencephaly and tell me where exacly the blessing is in life that is suffering miserably from just having bad luck in the genetic lottery you all loving god is forcing us all to play...and the Christian narrative of God able and willing to personally impregnate a woman to have a healthy child makes this even more cynical.
Who am I to say whose life "sucks" and whose doesn't? Even for people that are emotionally and physically challenged. And who are you to do the same? It seems to me that you are the one thats passing judgement my friend.

As far as the rest of your cynical view, if you were to read the bible and study it, you'd have a much bette understanding as to how and why things must happen the way it does.

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 10:47 AM

What do you think my question about organisms without complex nervous systems was countering to? You stated consciousness manifests reality, I demonstrated organisms that exist within reality but do not possess consciousnesses and that consciousness is a by-product of the evolutionary process (i.e. the body (and reality) exists before the mind).

Body can't exist before the mind. The mind creates the reality we live in. Even Science itself is a construct of the mind.

How do you find truth in Science? You start with a theory. What is a theory? A thought.

Matter itself is pure energy. It is the mind that constructs your senses into a living perception.

Matter doesn't exist. Period.

travelingman

12-29-2013, 11:01 AM

Matter doesn't exist. Period.

Logic ≠ Reality

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 11:36 AM

Do you even understand logic?

What I said about matter is a fact. What are we made of? Atoms. What are atoms made of? Electrons, protons, and neutrons. What are those? Electrical charges.

Explain to me how consciousness came out of matter when matter itself does not exist.

CeltsGarlic

12-29-2013, 11:43 AM

lol funny thing yesterday, electricity went off, so there is just me and my friend staying in my room. After ~30min i prayed for it to come back, all this for the lulz kind of, and the lights went on after 5 secs :lol

I was stunned I might say.. Felt really strange for 5 mins.

dr.hee

12-29-2013, 11:48 AM

Who am I to say whose life "sucks" and whose doesn't? Even for people that are emotionally and physically challenged. And who are you to do the same? It seems to me that you are the one thats passing judgement my friend.

Before though...

And more often than not if it sucks, its due to their own decisions. I guarantee if they only strived to adhere to Bible standards set for us, it wouldn't be as bad.

So I could've simply done the "Who are you to say why the life of others sucks?" thing, too. But let's talk about the topic instead, that's way too cheap. I'm not talking about the nice oh so inspirational stories of disabled people overcoming the odds, but instead about the billions (literally) of humans that died before ever being born due to the human reproductive system being fundamentally flawed. I'm talking about children born without a functioning brain at all. Children dying from a stroke in their mother's womb.

Or...what about the thousands of people that had to die because your Messiah only wanted to appear once in human history...to give his disciples orders to share his message with the world, even though the all knowing god must've been very aware that taking the gospel to different continents must consequentally lead to mass dyings because of a lack of immune responses to diseases that are introduced by the missionaries. All foreseen and approved by Yahweh? Maybe, but to me it seems like Stockholm syndrome to worship the guy for his overall managing style.

As far as the rest of your cynical view, if you were to read the bible and study it, you'd have a much bette understanding as to how and why things must happen the way it does.

Grew up Christian, and I know the bible well. The funny thing is, even the most respected biblical scholars differ hugely on interpretations of the scriptures, and you act like you've figured the whole thing out. So since I'm aware of the way mainstream Christian denominations think about suffering and the state of creation as well as what studied theologians interpret into it, I just can't take your statement that seriously.

If you go all fundie and take the book of Genesis literally, you could try to interpret something along the lines of humans being responsible for the state of creation ( even though this is not convincing at all if you want to present Yahweh as a moral authority)...but with more modern theologial approaches that are more cautious about taking biblical stories literally? Then it's really difficult to come up with a good reason for the way the universe looks.

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 11:55 AM

You're not helping 97 bulls. Just shut up and let the big boys handle this argument. Thanks.

dr.hee

12-29-2013, 11:57 AM

You're not helping 97 bulls. Just shut up and let the big boys handle this argument. Thanks.

I'm not really interested in your opinion though. Mainly because I'm god and created the universe. Can you disprove this? No? GTFO!

travelingman

12-29-2013, 12:00 PM

Electrons, protons, and neutrons. What are those? Electrical charges.

They aren't electrical charges. They HAVE electrical charges. All three of those are defined as matter because they have rest mass.

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 12:02 PM

I'm not really interested in your opinion though. Mainly because I'm all powerful and created the universe. Can you disprove this? No? GTFO!

Absolutely. What a stupid blanket statement.

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 12:04 PM

They aren't electrical charges. They HAVE electrical charges. All three of those are defined as matter because they have rest mass.

:roll:

Protons, neutons, and electrons are nothing more than energy dumbsh*t. Matter is energy; the world you see is energy; your small d*ck is energy .. matter doesn't exist. It is a self made delusional concept to keep idiots like you entrap in a minuscule existence.

Why?

Perception creates environment. Your environment alters base on the conditions of your mind.

dr.hee

12-29-2013, 12:05 PM

Absolutely. What a stupid blanket statement.

If you don't love me, you'll burn in hell. Your decision :confusedshrug:

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 12:27 PM

If you don't love me, you'll burn in hell. Your decision :confusedshrug:

http://anticache.img3.joyreactor.com/pics/post/internet-argument-542613.gif

travelingman

12-29-2013, 12:32 PM

:roll:

Protons, neutons, and electrons are nothing more than energy dumbsh*t. Matter is energy; the world you see is energy; your small d*ck is energy .. matter doesn't exist. It is a self made delusional concept to keep idiots like you entrap in a minuscule existence.

Why?

Perception creates environment. Your environment alters base on the conditions of your mind.

1) To say they are nothing more than energy is highly simplistic. They have rest mass, therefore they are matter. Matter, while closely related to energy, is not the same thing as energy. Mass and energy are equivalent, but not the same. Matter (that which has rest mass) can have inertia and exert gravitational pull, for example.

2) Try to hold back on calling another person an idiot before you make a grammatical error just three words later. Oh, and "Trayvon's lawyer".

dr.hee

12-29-2013, 12:32 PM

http://anticache.img3.joyreactor.com/pics/post/internet-argument-542613.gif

You're right. Pulling claims out of one's ass and telling others they can't falsify it is a stupid way to start a conversation. What is this topic about again?

:oldlol:

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 12:40 PM

1) To say they are nothing more than energy is highly simplistic. They have rest mass, therefore they are matter. Matter, while closely related to energy, is not the same thing as energy. Mass and energy are equivalent, but not the same. Matter (that which has rest mass) can have inertia and exert gravitational pull, for example.

2) Try to hold back on calling another person an idiot before you make a grammatical error just three words later. Oh, and "Trayvon's lawyer".

That is like saying ice is not water.

If an atom is nothing more than a bundle of eletrical charges, then guess what, that's energy.. Just because a particle is at rest, it doesn't change the fact it is still an eletrical charge.

Matter doesn't exist; it is energy. The true definition of matter is REST energy.

IamRAMBO24

12-29-2013, 12:50 PM

1) To say they are nothing more than energy is highly simplistic. .

True understanding is the ability to take hard subjects and simplify it.

97 bulls

12-29-2013, 01:54 PM

Before though...

So I could've simply done the "Who are you to say why the life of others sucks?" thing, too. But let's talk about the topic instead, that's way too cheap. I'm not talking about the nice oh so inspirational stories of disabled people overcoming the odds, but instead about the billions (literally) of humans that died before ever being born due to the human reproductive system being fundamentally flawed. I'm talking about children born without a functioning brain at all. Children dying from a stroke in their mother's womb.

Or...what about the thousands of people that had to die because your Messiah only wanted to appear once in human history...to give his disciples orders to share his message with the world, even though the all knowing god must've been very aware that taking the gospel to different continents must consequentally lead to mass dyings because of a lack of immune responses to diseases that are introduced by the missionaries. All foreseen and approved by Yahweh? Maybe, but to me it seems like Stockholm syndrome to worship the guy for his overall managing style.

Grew up Christian, and I know the bible well. The funny thing is, even the most respected biblical scholars differ hugely on interpretations of the scriptures, and you act like you've figured the whole thing out. So since I'm aware of the way mainstream Christian denominations think about suffering and the state of creation as well as what studied theologians interpret into it, I just can't take your statement that seriously.

If you go all fundie and take the book of Genesis literally, you could try to interpret something along the lines of humans being responsible for the state of creation ( even though this is not convincing at all if you want to present Yahweh as a moral authority)...but with more modern theologial approaches that are more cautious about taking biblical stories literally? Then it's really difficult to come up with a good reason for the way the universe looks.
You could've. But why? I'm showing you why I love and worship God. Love. That's what Jesus law is about. Love. And forgiveness. Serving God solely for what I can get out of him isn't love.

And if you realise why God allows bad things to happen to good people, you wouldn't question it.

97 bulls

12-29-2013, 01:59 PM

You're not helping 97 bulls. Just shut up and let the big boys handle this argument. Thanks.
Funny thing is. Im trying to figure out how a topic you made "what's wrong with loving God" has evolved into arguing over atoms and matter.

travelingman

12-29-2013, 02:17 PM

That is like saying ice is not water.

If an atom is nothing more than a bundle of eletrical charges, then guess what, that's energy.. Just because a particle is at rest, it doesn't change the fact it is still an eletrical charge.

Matter doesn't exist; it is energy. The true definition of matter is REST energy.

Ice and water have the same chemical compositions, but different molecular structures. So, in this sense, they are both the same and different. Not many people would say that the carbon allotropes graphite and diamond are the same thing, although chemically speaking, they are.

Continuing, there is a distinction between matter and energy. Energy is not believed to be an object (which would be matter), but rather a characteristic of "stuff" (a more broad term than matter, even) has.

Also, you keep saying that protons, neutrons, and electrons are charges. Again, atoms are composed of particles WHICH HAVE charge. Charge is a property of the particles in the same manner (or roughly the same) that energy, the ability to work, and mass are characteristics of "stuff".

travelingman

12-29-2013, 02:19 PM

True understanding is the ability to take hard subjects and simplify it.

But you were oversimplifying to the point of erring when it came to the representation of your claim.

dr.hee

12-29-2013, 02:26 PM

And if you realise why God allows bad things to happen to good people, you wouldn't question it.

Could you maybe explain your opinion on why you think the god you're believing in is allowing "bad things to happen to good people"? Honest question, I'm really interested in hearing your take on the issue.

K Xerxes

12-29-2013, 02:28 PM

Is this argument going to develop into one about quantum mechanics and wave-particle duality? Just what you'd expect on a bball forum. :lol

This IamRAMBO24 is completely clueless.

travelingman

12-29-2013, 02:31 PM

Is this argument going to develop into one about quantum mechanics and wave-particle duality? Just what you'd expect on a bball forum. :lol

This IamRAMBO24 is completely clueless.

That seems to be where this is heading. His cluelessness knows no bounds.

dr.hee

12-29-2013, 02:36 PM

That seems to be where this is heading. His cluelessness knows no bounds.

In the end, he will congratulate himself for the "controversy". Which is pretty much like running naked around people in a public place while jacking off furiously...afterwards Rambo is proud of himself because people were laughing at him. So the joke's on them, right?

travelingman

12-29-2013, 02:38 PM

like running naked around people in a public place while jacking off furiously

Probably not too alien of an example for Rambo, eh? :oldlol:

dr.hee

12-29-2013, 02:58 PM

Probably not too alien of an example for Rambo, eh? :oldlol:

He's probably whipping his d!ck into people's faces and when being told that's pretty gay, he's screaming "Ad hominem! Stop it! That's not my d!ck. Matter doesn't exist. It's pure energy!"...

travelingman

12-29-2013, 03:00 PM

He's probably whipping his d!ck into people's faces and when being told that's pretty gay, he's screaming "Ad hominem! Stop it! That's not my d!ck. Matter doesn't exist. It's pure energy!"...

I'm just trying to imagine the tangents he could go off on with that logic of his.

97 bulls

12-29-2013, 04:47 PM

Could you maybe explain your opinion on why you think the god you're believing in is allowing "bad things to happen to good people"? Honest question, I'm really interested in hearing your take on the issue.
Because God's enemy the Devil. Made the claim that the only reason man serves him is because of what they can get out of him. Not out of love. God denied that claim.

This is as simplified as I can make it.

miller-time

12-30-2013, 03:02 AM

Body can't exist before the mind. The mind creates the reality we live in. Even Science itself is a construct of the mind.

You are right, the mind takes information from the sensory organs and turns it into useful data (albeit at a limited and lower resolution) but to do that it needs to have sensory input before it can create perception. Some aspects of perception are structurally innate but most if not all still require real world experience to develop. For example; experiments have shown that kittens raised in environments where they can only see vertical lines for several months were only capable of seeing vertical lines and not horizontal ones for the rest of their lives. This demonstrates that perception is dependent on external information and not just innate properties of the "mind".

How do you find truth in Science? You start with a theory. What is a theory? A thought.

Matter itself is pure energy. It is the mind that constructs your senses into a living perception.

Matter doesn't exist. Period.

It doesn't matter (no pun intended) what properties energy within the universe take but the fact that energy exists independent of the mind. Another way to put it is that minds can only exist in places where energy already exists, whereas the existence of energy is not dependent on the mind.

IamRAMBO24

12-30-2013, 03:11 AM

Ice and water have the same chemical compositions, but different molecular structures. So, in this sense, they are both the same and different. Not many people would say that the carbon allotropes graphite and diamond are the same thing, although chemically speaking, they are.

Continuing, there is a distinction between matter and energy. Energy is not believed to be an object (which would be matter), but rather a characteristic of "stuff" (a more broad term than matter, even) has.

Also, you keep saying that protons, neutrons, and electrons are charges. Again, atoms are composed of particles WHICH HAVE charge. Charge is a property of the particles in the same manner (or roughly the same) that energy, the ability to work, and mass are characteristics of "stuff".

Philosophical approach:

The mind takes the energy to construct matter (touch, taste, vision)r; the ear takes vibrations to create music and sound. You can see this in your dreams where all the 5 senses are at play.

Scientific approach:

The world exist in a particle-wave duality unified in a field of energy. In the world of Quantum Physics, particles like electrons don't even exist at all. Under scientific experiments, the wave reacts to the observer. A particle only becomes a particle when someone is looking at it, thus the basic elements of matter are nothing more than a creation of your perception.

IamRAMBO24

12-30-2013, 03:20 AM

You are right, the mind takes information from the sensory organs and turns it into useful data (albeit at a limited and lower resolution) but to do that it needs to have sensory input before it can create perception. Some aspects of perception are structurally innate but most if not all still require real world experience to develop. For example; experiments have shown that kittens raised in environments where they can only see vertical lines for several months were only capable of seeing vertical lines and not horizontal ones for the rest of their lives. This demonstrates that perception is dependent on external information and not just innate properties of the "mind".

.

I agree.

Light is colorless; all the colors of the spectrum is within a white light. The eye takes the white light and converts it into color and vision. It is the mind that constructs perception. Without the mind, there is no matter; everything will be pure light, vibration, and energy. Matter can't exist independent of the mind, thus it goes back to my original argument that the body can't possibly create consciousness since it can't exist without the mind.

miller-time

12-30-2013, 03:52 AM

A particle only becomes a particle when someone is looking at it, thus the basic elements of matter are nothing more than a creation of your perception.

I'm not sure how far you can take that argument though? This may work for sub atomic particles and even atoms and molecules but if there is an lower limit on when particles act like particles whether there is an observer or not then consciousness does not matter in regards to the creation of matter (as you put it earlier).

IamRAMBO24

12-30-2013, 04:02 AM

I'm not sure how far you can take that argument though? This may work for sub atomic particles and even atoms and molecules but if there is an lower limit on when particles act like particles whether there is an observer or not then consciousness does not matter in regards to the creation of matter (as you put it earlier).

It is a fact.

The raw material of this universe is light, vibration, and energy. If a wave turns into a particle when someone observes it, it goes to reason the act of an observation is what creates matter.

Again, you have full proof of this when you go to sleep. You can see,hear, taste, touch and smell. That is reality; this is why you are not aware it is a dream until you wake up.

travelingman

12-30-2013, 04:58 AM

In the world of Quantum Physics, particles like electrons don't even exist at all. Under scientific experiments, the wave reacts to the observer. A particle only becomes a particle when someone is looking at it, thus the basic elements of matter are nothing more than a creation of your perception.

It's not by simply looking at it...it's how the experiment that is set up to observe the particle interferes with the state of the particle. What was happening in Young's double-slit experiment was the means of observing the particles was actually interfering with the state of the particles under observation. It was the semi-primitive nature of the conduction of the experiment that ultimately interfered with the outcome. It was much like hitting a billiard ball with another billiard ball while blindfolded to see where the former billiard ball was located. It's a Catch-22 situation. However, by introducing more sophisticated methods of observing the particles under scrutiny, we have been able to observe these particles in their wave-like states (I believe the experiment was conducted in 2012, but several other experiments have changed our understanding of wave-particle duality in recent decades as well).

IamRAMBO24

12-30-2013, 05:08 AM

It's not by simply looking at it...it's how the experiment that is set up to observe the particle interferes with the state of the particle. What was happening in Young's double-slit experiment was the means of observing the particles was actually interfering with the state of the particles under observation. It was the semi-primitive nature of the conduction of the experiment that ultimately interfered with the outcome. It was much like hitting a billiard ball with another billiard ball while blindfolded to see where the former billiard ball was located. It's a Catch-22 situation. However, by introducing more sophisticated methods of observing the particles under scrutiny, we have been able to observe these particles in their wave-like states (I believe the experiment was conducted in 2012, but several other experiments have changed our understanding of wave-particle duality in recent decades as well).

Interference only happens when no one is watching. It is the act of observation that makes the electrons behave like particles.

They had to use a machine to view the waves untainted. Once the mind sees that wave, it automatically constructs that into a form of matter.

travelingman

12-30-2013, 05:16 AM

Once the mind sees that wave, it automatically constructs that into a form of matter.

Elaborate on this view of yours.

IamRAMBO24

12-30-2013, 05:30 AM

Elaborate on this view of yours.

It is a study done by Weizmann institute researchers.

In the experiment, the Scientists set up 2 barriers to either slow down or stop an electron wave. Using a machine first, they were able to detect the electrons passing through the barriers with no restraint, but when a person actually looks at the electrons, it started changing its behavior and slowed down when it passed through the barrier.

This is because the act of observation is creating mass within the wave.

IamRAMBO24

12-30-2013, 05:40 AM

Funny thing is. Im trying to figure out how a topic you made "what's wrong with loving God" has evolved into arguing over atoms and matter.

The first step is to destroy their perception of reality. They believe in a materialistic universe. It is hard to comprehend a spirtual energetic field when someone is restricted to this field of thought. It is a roadblock to the realm of God. It is not by coincidence the foundation of atheism is materialism.

If you destroy the materialism from under them, they no longer have any foundation. The irony is you can use the one thing they cherish the most (Science) to destroy their sense of reality - even the ideology they uphold now contradicts the foundation they stand on (Quantum Physics).

travelingman

12-30-2013, 06:04 AM

It is a study done by Weizmann institute researchers.

In the experiment, the Scientists set up 2 barriers to either slow down or stop an electron wave. Using a machine first, they were able to detect the electrons passing through the barriers with no restraint, but when a person actually looks at the electrons, it started changing its behavior and slowed down when it passed through the barrier.

This is because the act of observation is creating mass within the wave.

Was this experiment conducted in the late 1990s?

IamRAMBO24

12-30-2013, 06:07 AM

Was this experiment conducted in the late 1990s?

No.

It is one of the newest developments in Science.

travelingman

12-30-2013, 06:11 AM

No.

It is one of the newest developments in Science.

Oh, ok. I'll need a link, then. I was thinking of an experiment conducted in the late 90s by a group of Weizmann researchers that was only slightly similar to the one you mentioned.

IamRAMBO24

12-30-2013, 06:22 AM

Oh, ok. I'll need a link, then. I was thinking of an experiment conducted in the late 90s by a group of Weizmann researchers that was only slightly similar to the one you mentioned.

Nm you're right. It was in the late 90s.

IamRAMBO24

12-30-2013, 06:29 AM

I will quote John Wheeler. If you don't know who he is, think A Beautiful Mind and John Nash.

"Our observations influence the universe at the most fundamental levels."

travelingman

12-30-2013, 06:32 AM

Nm you're right. It was in the late 90s.

Ok, here's the study I was alluding to, for reference:

http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/05/disentangling-the-wave-particle-duality-in-the-double-slit-experiment/

dr.hee

12-30-2013, 08:05 AM

Because God's enemy the Devil. Made the claim that the only reason man serves him is because of what they can get out of him. Not out of love. God denied that claim.

This is as simplified as I can make it.

Hope you don't take this the wrong way...but I have no idea what you want to say. So correct me if I got that wrong...you think that suffering exists because Yahweh ( all powerful, all knowing, all loving) had his pride hurt by comments of the "Devil" ( a less powerful and knowing being he created himself), so he decided to let random people suffer miserably in order to prove a point?

No offense, but that's what you're going with? After 2000 years of Christianity and quite a lot of efforts to make their doctrine more sane ( from my perspective of course, not meant to offend you), that's what you believe in? Parts of my family affiliate with Catholicism and Protestantism, and I've never heard them going with such a statement. I of course don't agree with any Christian premises at all, but there are much more sophisticated way to interpret the scriptures. But maybe you're part of an evangelical community or something along those lines, no idea.

Basically, doctrines similar to your idea about the cause of suffering while accepting the premise of an all loving god existing, where a major reason for me personal to reject Christianity altogether. On the most basic level, I reject the premise itself, but even hypothetically conceding the existence of Yahweh, I couldn't agree with his actions based on my subjective sense of morality.

But whatever, we'll disagree anyway. But it would be nice if you at least acknowledged that there are non Christians out there which don't believe in your religion precisely because they've read the bible. I did. Not impressed at all. If the book provides a sense of meaning to people, good for them.
:cheers:

shlver

12-30-2013, 08:44 AM

Interference only happens when no one is watching. It is the act of observation that makes the electrons behave like particles.

They had to use a machine to view the waves untainted. Once the mind sees that wave, it automatically constructs that into a form of matter.
"Observation" is jargon for measurement or detection. The wave function collapses when a photon from the measurement apparatus interacts with the signal particle. your butchered misinterpretation and misapplication of particle wave duality is not a description of reality, rather quantum physics and wave function collapses are a mathematical tool to approximate probabilities. They are not mechanistic models that happen in the real world.

poido123

12-30-2013, 09:43 AM

We cannot see gravity, but we know it exists right?

We cannot see an outcome in basketball before it has played out, but we believe before a game that we can win it and put in the training to get the best result?

What I am saying is, having faith takes work and it takes letting all your doubts go and putting your faith in God.

There's a lot of reasons people look for to avoid putting the effort in to believe in God, it's not meant to be easy, God tests everyone on this.

Don't you guys ask yourself why everyone has a different personality? How we got here? What makes us feel emotions? Who made such a complex world?

For all the reasons for you to not believe, I can find a heaps of reasons to have faith. I mean, there is evidence of God if you look hard enough...

Here's a bit about the crossing of the Red Sea discovery:

http://www.squidoo.com/redseacrossing

IamRAMBO24

12-30-2013, 10:15 AM

"Observation" is jargon for measurement or detection. The wave function collapses when a photon from the measurement apparatus interacts with the signal particle. your butchered misinterpretation and misapplication of particle wave duality is not a description of reality, rather quantum physics and wave function collapses are a mathematical tool to approximate probabilities. They are not mechanistic models that happen in the real world.

1. Weizmann (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980227055013.htm)

2. John Wheeler (http://discovermagazine.com/2002/jun/featuniverse)

3. Copenhagen Interpretation (http://books.google.com/books?id=pgPjD0YFHyEC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=copenhagen+interpretation+bohr+observation+affe cts+reality&source=bl&ots=un0qwsChO2&sig=PDrJ2xkxk55fViLKbEXETJpv60I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AX_BUsPuJ7SCyAHUhoHgCw&ved=0CGMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=copenhagen%20interpretation%20bohr%20observation %20affects%20reality&f=false)

IamRAMBO24

12-30-2013, 10:40 AM

"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such."

- Max Planck (founder of Quantum Physics)

rufuspaul

12-30-2013, 10:50 AM

Oh great, another God/Science thread! :rolleyes:

travelingman

12-30-2013, 11:02 AM

2. John Wheeler (http://discovermagazine.com/2002/jun/featuniverse)

There seems to be a contradiction in this article. It says that, in one of its examples, a certain particle is not real until it interacts with something, and in this example it interacts with a piece of mica...so what the article is saying that a piece of mica, being an inanimate object, is capable of collapsing a quantum state function into a result, but the cat, a sentient being, cannot...it could be that it was just a careless example, but still worth noting.

shlver

12-30-2013, 11:06 AM

1. Weizmann (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980227055013.htm)

2. John Wheeler (http://discovermagazine.com/2002/jun/featuniverse)

3. Copenhagen Interpretation (http://books.google.com/books?id=pgPjD0YFHyEC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=copenhagen+interpretation+bohr+observation+affe cts+reality&source=bl&ots=un0qwsChO2&sig=PDrJ2xkxk55fViLKbEXETJpv60I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AX_BUsPuJ7SCyAHUhoHgCw&ved=0CGMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=copenhagen%20interpretation%20bohr%20observation %20affects%20reality&f=false)
So you give me articles that basically repeat and confirm observation collapses the wave function and then you reference a book that talks about "quantum metaphysics" and then label it copenhagen interpretation? Complete waste of time.
2nd link is speculation and says so in the article...

shlver

12-30-2013, 11:15 AM

Instead of linking speculative articles and metaphysical nonsense, can you please tell me what quantum mechanics actually is and what it's used for? The math portion, not the metaphysical and philosophical implications. If you can't tell me what quantum physics actually is, you're just pulling shit out your ass as usual.

EDIT: Which reminds me of the time you said "einstein ripped apart newton" and "einstein plagiarized." Then you conveniently ignored my request "No... Argue what you said is arguable. That gr and newtonian gravity are identical in the lower limit of gravitational fields and velocities." Always pulling the same bullshit, having zero idea what you're talking about.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=286032&page=6

dr.hee

12-30-2013, 11:22 AM

So you give me articles that basically repeat and confirm observation collapses the wave function and then you reference a book that talks about "quantum metaphysics" and then label it copenhagen interpretation? Complete waste of time.
2nd link is speculation and says so in the article...

You shouldn't be so hard on Rambo. Looks like he has discovered Wikipedia recently and now every article he's randomly clicking on is giving him the impression of being able to make very deep and original thoughts that surely have never been articulated before :rolleyes:

If he was educated enought to attend university, he'd be one of those annoying freshmen who ask retardedly trivial questions during lectures while pretending to be oh so profound, thinking they've reinvented the history of everything. You know, one of those kids who were a tiny bit above average at school but get completely lost when faced with another level of education. That's why he's writing his bullshit on a basketball message board...he'd be even more clueless around more serious people and hopes this environment might give him the possibility to delude himself into feeling intellectually superior, but the truth is...even some random knuckleheads on ISH are way over his head :oldlol:

shlver

12-30-2013, 11:36 AM

I agree.

Light is colorless; all the colors of the spectrum is within a white light. The eye takes the white light and converts it into color and vision. It is the mind that constructs perception. Without the mind, there is no matter; everything will be pure light, vibration, and energy. Matter can't exist independent of the mind, thus it goes back to my original argument that the body can't possibly create consciousness since it can't exist without the mind.
Have you ever shared your ideas outside of insidehoops? You should share your ideas with your local university biophysics professors. I'm sure they'll appreciate your insight. Well I'm done here.

dr.hee

12-30-2013, 11:44 AM

97 bulls

12-30-2013, 02:21 PM

Hope you don't take this the wrong way...but I have no idea what you want to say. So correct me if I got that wrong...you think that suffering exists because Yahweh ( all powerful, all knowing, all loving) had his pride hurt by comments of the "Devil" ( a less powerful and knowing being he created himself), so he decided to let random people suffer miserably in order to prove a point?

No offense, but that's what you're going with? After 2000 years of Christianity and quite a lot of efforts to make their doctrine more sane ( from my perspective of course, not meant to offend you), that's what you believe in? Parts of my family affiliate with Catholicism and Protestantism, and I've never heard them going with such a statement. I of course don't agree with any Christian premises at all, but there are much more sophisticated way to interpret the scriptures. But maybe you're part of an evangelical community or something along those lines, no idea.

Basically, doctrines similar to your idea about the cause of suffering while accepting the premise of an all loving god existing, where a major reason for me personal to reject Christianity altogether. On the most basic level, I reject the premise itself, but even hypothetically conceding the existence of Yahweh, I couldn't agree with his actions based on my subjective sense of morality.

But whatever, we'll disagree anyway. But it would be nice if you at least acknowledged that there are non Christians out there which don't believe in your religion precisely because they've read the bible. I did. Not impressed at all. If the book provides a sense of meaning to people, good for them.
:cheers:
I could go much more in depth. But it's kind hard doing it over the internet.

God created us with free will. Without that there isnt love. Gods Angels also have free will. Satan decided to use that will, turn against God and commence to an effort of turning everyone against him as well.

I assume youve read the book of Job. In it, you'll find a conversation between God and the Devil in which Satan says the only reason why man serves you is because of the rewards they can get from you. Not out of love. You do realize there's a difference right? If God has to put the love and appreciation and respect for him in our hearts, then we're no different than a doll that says I love you when the pull its string.

I mean, isnt this pretty much what youre saying? Why serve a God that wont reward you for doing it? And whats so hard about what he expects? Love one another and try not to do bad things. I see nothing wrong with that

dr.hee

12-30-2013, 02:50 PM

I assume youve read the book of Job. In it, you'll find a conversation between God and the Devil in which Satan says the only reason why man serves you is because of the rewards they can get from you. Not out of love. You do realize there's a difference right? If God has to put the love and appreciation and respect for him in our hearts, then we're no different than a doll that says I love you when the pull its string.

So...no reason to worship god if you aren't "blessed" then?

I worship God because I appreciate how much he has blessed me.

Besides...you take the book of Job literally?

Love one another and try not to do bad things.

Christianity hasn't invented these values though. And I kind of figured them out on my own as well. Is this something I should be impressed with? The very moment you concede that humans are capable of inventing these standards on their own, the only reason you have left for Yahweh being the original source is that he'll provide eternal happiness if you follow some simple rules.

IamRAMBO24

12-31-2013, 04:52 AM

IamRAMBO24

12-31-2013, 04:58 AM

You shouldn't be so hard on Rambo. Looks like he has discovered Wikipedia recently and now every article he's randomly clicking on is giving him the impression of being able to make very deep and original thoughts that surely have never been articulated before :rolleyes:

If he was educated enought to attend university, he'd be one of those annoying freshmen who ask retardedly trivial questions during lectures while pretending to be oh so profound, thinking they've reinvented the history of everything. You know, one of those kids who were a tiny bit above average at school but get completely lost when faced with another level of education. That's why he's writing his bullshit on a basketball message board...he'd be even more clueless around more serious people and hopes this environment might give him the possibility to delude himself into feeling intellectually superior, but the truth is...even some random knuckleheads on ISH are way over his head :oldlol:

There is not one intellectual seminal thing coming out of this blanket response. This is a discussion for adults.

At least Miller and Travel took the time out to do their homework. You and Shiver are nothing more than a bunch of tools.

My argument still stands: the act of observation affects the basic elements that make up this universe.

1. I supported this statement with experiments.

2. I used a strong logic foundation (Kantian metaphysics) to explain my reasoning.

3. I cited some of the most influential Scientist this century that supported this claim.

That is a strong f*ckin argument. Do your homework and take it on. Brushing off Kant, John Wheeler, Planck, and Quantum Physics just because it contradicts your perception of reality is just ignorant and stupid. Period.

travelingman

12-31-2013, 07:00 AM

Rambo, what say you on this explanation of the apparent implications of Wheeler's delayed choice experiment?

http://www7b.biglobe.ne.jp/~kcy05t/dcqe.html

IamRAMBO24

12-31-2013, 12:46 PM

Rambo, what say you on this explanation of the apparent implications of Wheeler's delayed choice experiment?

http://www7b.biglobe.ne.jp/~kcy05t/dcqe.html

What do you mean?

IamRAMBO24

12-31-2013, 01:12 PM

It looks like a gateway to time travel. It is nothing new photons can affect each other at vast distances (including the future and the past).

We live in a world of energy and conscousness; our perception of the world affects it, and since there are no physical matter it is not suprising the state of the past can be changed in the future and vice versa.

niko

12-31-2013, 01:29 PM

Did any of you ever watchi In Living Color? Where the guy used big words and just rambled on and on but it really meant nothing. For some reason that is popping into my mind here.

dr.hee

12-31-2013, 01:37 PM

Did any of you ever watchi In Living Color? Where the guy used big words and just rambled on and on but it really meant nothing. For some reason that is popping into my mind here.

I don't see Rambo using big words though. Trivial ramblings by a simple minded guy :oldlol:

IamRAMBO24

12-31-2013, 01:42 PM

I don't see Rambo using big words though. Trivial ramblings by a simple minded guy :oldlol:

The only way you truly understand something is when you can put the thought into it's most simplistic form.

I don't use big words on purpose nor do I regurgitate technical jargon (they block off conceptual thinking), but niko understands the concepts I'm talking about are indeed big.

IamRAMBO24

12-31-2013, 01:47 PM

I bet it also irks the f*ck out of you guys the stuff I'm talking about is out there but yet you can't prove me wrong.

In fact, no one in here probably can.

These are some of the best ideas known by philosophers for over 500 years; it is an established TRUTH; Science is only beginning to catch up with philosophy using Quantum Physics.

Thank god they got rid of the sh*t you nerds were studying back in highschool. How does it feel staying up late at night, tearing your hair out, giving up on your social life, girls, with your d*ck getting smaller from all the stress, only to find out all the Science they taught were completely wrong?

Should of been a philosopher, this is elementary stuff for us. It is hard for you guys to fully grasp its meaning because it contradicts everything you have been raised to believe in.

travelingman

12-31-2013, 03:38 PM

gts

12-31-2013, 04:09 PM

ForeverHeat

12-31-2013, 05:24 PM

Things I learned in this thread.

Doubters seem to be awfully invested in being right. I never got this, if you don't believe in a higher power why spend so much time on the subject? Some highly intelligent people spending an awful amount of time researching a topic they deny exists.

Believers seem to think believing makes them right which is wrong

Both sides rely way to much on the past works of others and avoid speaking from the heart

IamRambo is the Hamilton Burger of ISH.

This is the thing that pissed me off the most. There are some Atheists that wanna burn it into a religious persons mind that God is a silly fictional story and that they are completely retarded for believing in it. Its like they think they are right and everyone else is stupid and they need to let them know they are stupid. **** those guys. You may not be religious, and there is nothing wrong with that since everyone should have a choice but there is nothing that makes it okay to ridicule someone else's beliefs. Even if you forget the fact that there are people whose rights you are infringing on by ridiculing their beliefs, it is just stupid to completely disregard religion. Religions along with philosophy and science is a major foundation in the history of our world, and it served to shape many of the morals and societal factors we have and observe today. Certain atheists think they are smart but they really need to be educated to more than one side of the story.

IamRAMBO24

01-01-2014, 01:59 AM

This is the thing that pissed me off the most. There are some Atheists that wanna burn it into a religious persons mind that God is a silly fictional story and that they are completely retarded for believing in it. Its like they think they are right and everyone else is stupid and they need to let them know they are stupid. **** those guys. You may not be religious, and there is nothing wrong with that since everyone should have a choice but there is nothing that makes it okay to ridicule someone else's beliefs. Even if you forget the fact that there are people whose rights you are infringing on by ridiculing their beliefs, it is just stupid to completely disregard religion. Religions along with philosophy and science is a major foundation in the history of our world, and it served to shape many of the morals and societal factors we have and observe today. Certain atheists think they are smart but they really need to be educated to more than one side of the story.

True.

Personally I find Scientific fundamentalism to be worst than religious fervor.

The thing is, at least religion has a platform to stand on; these materialistic atheists have absolutely nothing to stand on. The Science they believe in is being destroyed as we speak: when Quantum Physics is better understood and the mainstream finally catches up to it, it will replace every scientific fact we know today.

IamRAMBO24

01-01-2014, 02:04 AM

IamRambo is the Hamilton Burger of ISH.

Hamilton Burger must be one of the most influential posters on ISH.

IamRAMBO24

01-01-2014, 02:07 AM

Rambo, how much of Berkeley's ideas do you buy into? By the way, that link was a critique of the apparent implications of Wheeler's delayed choice experiment. The author was arguing against the idea of a delayed choice by analyzing the very experiment that brought about that type of thinking.

I am more of a Kantian, but I have great respect for Berkeley for being the first to destroy the idea of matter. Sorry I didn't even read that article because I thought you were linking me to an experiment I have already studied before.

IamRAMBO24

01-01-2014, 02:13 AM

Both sides rely way to much on the past works of others and avoid speaking from the heart

I'm not a genius. I am a student. I study the greats and use their platform as the basis of my arguments, hence why I can speak with an air of confidence since I've done my homework and I know for damn sure a regular poster can't possibly be as great as Kant, Planck, Berkeley, Wheeler, etc.

I don't claim any credit; I give it where it is due. What these posters don't realize when they try to counter my claim is they are not arguing with me, they are arguing against some of the best minds that ever lived.

Randy

01-01-2014, 02:23 AM

IamRAMBO24

01-01-2014, 02:27 AM

Holy shit dude, you're a huge douche.

Explain your reasons why you think this. This truly hurts my feelings.

travelingman

01-01-2014, 03:07 AM

I'm not a genius. I am a student. I study the greats and use their platform as the basis of my arguments, hence why I can speak with an air of confidence since I've done my homework and I know for damn sure a regular poster can't possibly be as great as Kant, Planck, Berkeley, Wheeler, etc.

I don't claim any credit; I give it where it is due. What these posters don't realize when they try to counter my claim is they are not arguing with me, they are arguing against some of the best minds that ever lived.

But then again, for every Berkeley there is a Russell, or, to make things more interesting, I could take Planck's quote of "a conscious and intelligent mind" and apply that to an extreme form of solipsism, with the aforementioned "mind" being my own subconscious and the concept of other minds just being something that had arisen from my own subconscious, with nothing really existing except my own mind (including others or even a creator). In that case, my everyday interactions with other people would just be ideas and conceptualizations, my own thoughts composing my *true* and complete reality.

IamRAMBO24

01-01-2014, 03:38 AM

But then again, for every Berkeley there is a Russell, or, to make things more interesting, I could take Planck's quote of "a conscious and intelligent mind" and apply that to an extreme form of solipsism, with the aforementioned "mind" being my own subconscious and the concept of other minds just being something that had arisen from my own subconscious, with nothing really existing except my own mind (including others or even a creator). In that case, my everyday interactions with other people would just be ideas and conceptualizations, my own thoughts composing my *true* and complete reality.

The beauty of Kant is his ability to combine Science and the mind.

To him, Science is real. There is a universe apart of us, but this universe is not a world of matter, but rather a field of energy. It is seperate from us; we take the raw energies to formulate our perception of reality. Although the brain creates our reality, it can't exist without the energies that surround us.

Solipsism and Berkeley only takes into consideration the aspects of the mind, but the truth is we live in a dualistic reality. Science is just as important as philosophy. Science looks for the concrete while Philosophy looks at the bigger picture: you need both to have a fully developed mind.