Wade Is The Best SG of the Last 10 Years.

[NumberSix]

Dude doesn't get enough credit. 3 rings, a FMVP, epic performances and by far the most dominant finals. His 06 and 09 seasons by far the best of any guard in the last 10 years.

[Mr. Jabbar]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/105147/kobe-over-dwayne-wade-o.gif

[NumberSix]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/105147/kobe-over-dwayne-wade-o.gif
3 rings > 2 rings homeboy.

[Lebron23]

3 rings > 2 rings homeboy.


This

[Mr. Jabbar]

3 rings > 2 rings homeboy.

5 > 1

[G-Funk]

3 rings > 2 rings homeboy.

The Irony

[G-Funk]

5 > 1


This

[ABfor3]

Injuries and letting lebron come and take over his team kinda hurt his chances for that argument. Kobe>Wade

[NumberSix]

Injuries and letting lebron come and take over his team kinda hurt his chances for that argument. Kobe>Wade
Not talking about all time. Just the last 10 years.

In the last 10 years, Wade is unquestionably the best SG.

[G-Funk]

Didn't that ni99a average 16/5/5 with 3 turnovers in the playoffs?

[Mr. Jabbar]

Not talking about all time. Just the last 10 years.

In the last 10 years, Wade is unquestionably the best SG.

he wasn't even better than kobe last year :facepalm

this aint a knock on batman tho, being 2nd to kobe is something to be proud of

[NumberSix]

he wasn't even better than kobe last year :facepalm
Arguable, but there are 9 more years to consider.

[ABfor3]

Not talking about all time. Just the last 10 years.

In the last 10 years, Wade is unquestionably the best SG.

I know and everything Ive mentioned happened within the last 10 years...hes been injured the last few years and Lebron joined him and took over his team.

[G-Funk]

In last 10 years Kobe has made All NBA team 9 times to Wade's 2. NEXT

[NumberSix]

I know and everything Ive mentioned happened within the last 10 years...hes been injured the last few years and Lebron joined him and took over his team.
Wade's 2003-2013 is better than any other SG during the same time.

[NumberSix]

In last 10 years Kobe has made All NBA team 9 times to Wade's 2. NEXT
3 rings.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Wade's 2003-2013 is better than any other SG during the same time.

http://replygif.net/thumbnail/1049.gif

[DFish24]

Kobe 5>>Wade 3>Bran 2

[Heavincent]

In the last 10 years, Wade is unquestionably the best SG.

People on the internet love saying controversial things and then adding a word such as "unquestionably", as if that makes their dumb opinion more valid or something.

You can have your stupid opinion, but don't try to act like everyone agrees with you.

[NumberSix]

Wade's best finals: 34.7/7.8/3.8 46.8%
Kobe's best finals: 32..4/5.6/7.4 43%

[NumberSix]

Kobe 5>>Wade 3>Bran 2
In the lest 10 years.....

Wade 3>LeBron 2>Kobe 2

[Mr. Jabbar]

i think op knows he did wrong with this thread, i forgive you in the name of ish

[Heavincent]

LeBron 2>Kobe 2

So 2 is more than 2? Interesting.

[ABfor3]

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a113/balla94/wade_zps61761775.png

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a113/balla94/wade2_zpsfb419320.png

Kobe>Wade

[avonbarksdale]

http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/kobe_bryant_biography_3.jpeg

[NumberSix]

So 2 is more than 2? Interesting.
Yes.

1 lead his team in all categories and had an epic game 7. The other didnt show up in game 7 and has literally the worst stats of any FMVP in NBA history.

[NumberSix]

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a113/balla94/wade_zps61761775.png

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a113/balla94/wade2_zpsfb419320.png

Kobe>Wade
How you figure?

[chazzy]

05, 09, and 11 are the only years I'd say Wade definitely better, with 09 being the closest of the 3

[imnew09]

How you figure?

"You can talk about their greatness. This is a good era for basketball, and it would be led by Kobe Bryant

[imnew09]

F@ggot OP or Wade? ... hard choice

[ABfor3]

How you figure?
09 was probably the only year He had that was definitely better than Kobe

[ABfor3]

[QUOTE=imnew09]"You can talk about their greatness. This is a good era for basketball, and it would be led by Kobe Bryant

[TheMarkMadsen]

All NBA selections

2013: Kobe 1st team All NBA, Wade 3rd team

2012: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 3rd team

2011: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 2nd team

2010: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 1st team

2009: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 1st team

2008: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade not selected

2007: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 3rd team

2006: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 2nd team

2005: Kobe 3rd team All NBA Wade 2nd team

2004: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade not selected


http://thecensus.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/kobe.gif

[Jakeh008]

Most Points in a single game by a guard
Only player in NBA history to score at least 600 points in the postseason for three consecutive years
2x scoring champ (8th highest in NBA history)
4x NBA Finals
2x Champion/FMVP
MVP
9x Allstar
3x NBA All-Star Game MVP
7x 1st All-Defensive Team (1x 2nd)

28.1pts 5.5reb 5.2ast 1.5st 0.4blk .45/.33/.84%
.................................................. .....................................


1x All-Star Game MVP
1st player in NBA history to accumulate at least 2,000 points, 500 assists, 100 steals, and 100 blocks in a season
9x NBA All-Star
2x All NBA First Team
3x All-NBA Third Team
1x NBA Scoring Champion
2006 Best NBA Player ESPY Award
NBA All-Star Skills Challenge Champion
1x NBA Finals MVP
3x NBA Champion

24.6pts 5.1reb 6.1ast 1.8st 1.0blk .49/.29/.76%

[Jameerthefear]

#6 is trollin

[NumberSix]

#6 is trollin
I'm really not doe. Wade is da best.

[INDI]

Wade's 2003-2013 is better than any other SG during the same time.

Post his average for the past 10 years and we will put that up against Kobe to see if it's true

[K Xerxes]

Not even trolling this time, there is literally no case for Wade over Kobe. The only case that can be made is peak vs peak, but that's not 'the best SG of the last 10 years'.

[dr.hee]

http://cdn2.mocksession.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/KOBENO.gif

[DMAVS41]

Injuries and letting lebron come and take over his team kinda hurt his chances for that argument. Kobe>Wade

Injuries?

You mean when Kobe was hurt and missed the playoffs last year?

Or when Kobe was hurt in 05 and missed the playoffs with a good team around him?

Or when Kobe missed 17 games in 04 and then played one of the worst finals ever?

Hell, Kobe was hurt in 2010 in the first round and easily could have lost if not for having a great team around him.

Wade has been better the last 10 years imo...and I honestly have no clue how people hold injuries against Wade and then say Kobe was better last year. Last year the Heat would have had no chance with Kobe in place of Wade...he was hurt!

Just don't see how the argument makes much sense honestly.

[Bandito]

Not talking about all time. Just the last 10 years.

In the last 10 years, Wade is unquestionably the best SG.
You mean 2>1 because his last 2 rings are Lebron's.


Also there's nothing in Wade's resume that is better than Kobe's. Kobe was even a better sidekick than Wade is to Lebron...

[CelticBaller]

lol kobe

[DMAVS41]

09 was probably the only year He had that was definitely better than Kobe

He was definitely better than Kobe in 05 and 11.

[HylianNightmare]

After Kobe, yes

[HylianNightmare]

Post his average for the past 10 years and we will put that up against Kobe to see if it's true

This

[red1]

its close but i give it to jerry stackhouse by a mile

[Yao Ming's Foot]

All NBA selections

2013: Kobe 1st team All NBA, Wade 3rd team

2012: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 3rd team

2011: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 2nd team

2010: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 1st team

2009: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 1st team

2008: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade not selected

2007: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 3rd team

2006: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 2nd team

2005: Kobe 3rd team All NBA Wade 2nd team

2004: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade not selected


http://thecensus.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/kobe.gif

No SG has made an ALL NBA team ahead of Kobe Bryant in the last 14 years (since 99), but yeah Wade was better.

:roll:

[PJR]

Give me D.Wade on my team over Bryant all day day. Everyday.

If it's a similar situation, I'm getting the same results. And a better team player to boot. The petty Shaq/Kobe feud never happens with Wade.

And Wade would never help push Dwight Howard away to the point where he's willing to leave 30 million on the table to go elsewhere. It's only about winning with Wade. Bottom line. With Kobe? You have to operate on his terms, or he'll bitch about it. Ya, no thanks.

[red1]

Give me D.Wade on my team over Bryant all day day. Everyday.

If it's a similar situation, I'm getting the same results. And a better team player to boot. The petty Shaq/Kobe feud never happens with Wade.

And Wade would never help push Dwight Howard away to the point where he's willing to leave 30 million on the table to go elsewhere. It's only about winning with Wade. Bottom line. With Kobe? You have to operate on his terms, or he'll bitch about it. Ya, no thanks.
and then you have to factor in the chucking and the rape. ya, no thanks

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Give me D.Wade on my team over Bryant all day day. Everyday.

If it's a similar situation, I'm getting the same results. And a better team player to boot. The petty Shaq/Kobe feud never happens with Wade.

And Wade would never help push Dwight Howard away to the point where he's willing to leave 30 million on the table to go elsewhere. It's only about winning with Wade. Bottom line. With Kobe? You have to operate on his terms, or he'll bitch about it. Ya, no thanks.

Wins less with better players therefore is a better player. Strong logic.

[PJR]

and then you have to factor in the chucking and the rape. ya, no thanks

Don't forget name dropping and snitching to the police about another teammates extra marital affairs.

[red1]

Wins less with better players therefore is a better player. Strong logic.
i love how you ignored the chucking and the rape. yea good deflection buddy

[PJR]

Wins less with better players therefore is a better player. Strong logic.

Wins less with better players? He has the same amount of titles that Kobe had after 10 seasons dumbass. :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

i love how you ignored the chucking and the rape. yea good deflection buddy

The post I responded to doesn't mention "chucking" or "rape".

Strong reading comprehension.

[red1]

The post I responded to doesn't mention "chucking" or "rape".

Strong reading comprehension.
nice try, im not going to let you troll me. i dont fall for the bait that easy buddy

[Yao Ming's Foot]

nice try, im not going to let you troll me. i dont fall for the bait that easy buddy

:biggums:

[red1]

:biggums:
you keep this up and im going to have no choice but to put you on my ignore list. is that what you want? huh?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Only reason I'm not taking Wade over Kobe is because of injuries. 2009 Wade = better than Kobe ever was.

[Bandito]

you keep this up and im going to have no choice but to put you on my ignore list. is that what you want? huh?
First World Problems...

[DMAVS41]

Only reason I'm not taking Wade over Kobe is because of injuries. 2009 Wade = better than Kobe ever was.

I don't really get this argument. Kobe missed time in 04, was hurt in 05, was hurt in 10 and easily could have lost if not for a lot of help, and then was hurt in 13. He's hardly been a picture of health over the last 10 years.

Aren't Kobe fans also always claiming Kobe was hurt in 11 against the Mavs? Seems like Kobe was hurt a lot...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't really get this argument. Kobe missed time in 04, was hurt in 05, was hurt in 10 and easily could have lost if not for a lot of help, and then was hurt in 13. He's hardly been a picture of health over the last 10 years.

And yet, Wade is more injury prone. What's not to get?

[red1]

First World Problems...
:facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't really get this argument. Kobe missed time in 04, was hurt in 05, was hurt in 10 and easily could have lost if not for a lot of help, and then was hurt in 13. He's hardly been a picture of health over the last 10 years.

And he's still played more games than Wade over that timespan. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

And yet, Wade is more injury prone. What's not to get?

And yet...how?

[NumberSix]

I don't really get this argument. Kobe missed time in 04, was hurt in 05, was hurt in 10 and easily could have lost if not for a lot of help, and then was hurt in 13. He's hardly been a picture of health over the last 10 years.

Aren't Kobe fans also always claiming Kobe was hurt in 11 against the Mavs? Seems like Kobe was hurt a lot...
I think some folks are having difficulty understanding the concept of "the last 10 years".

[DMAVS41]

And he's still played more games than Wade over that timespan. :confusedshrug:

Yea, but what is the impact? Kobe lost the 05 season due to injuries. Wade lost the 08 season. Does it really matter that Kobe played 15 more games? They both missed the playoffs...so what does it really matter?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And he's still played more games than Wade over that timespan. :confusedshrug:

Exactly.

Wade missed 20 or so games his rookie year
Missed 40% of the 2006-07 season
Missed half of the 2007-08 season
Missed practically half of the 2011-12 season

Like, how is this even debatable?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yea, but what is the impact? Kobe lost the 05 season due to injuries. Wade lost the 08 season. Does it really matter that Kobe played 15 more games? They both missed the playoffs...so what does it really matter?

Does anything matter? Does it matter if Kobe misses this entire season? Are they going to win a title this year if he was healthy? What an inane argument.

[DMAVS41]

Exactly.

Wade missed 20 or so games his rookie year
Missed 30% of the 2006-07 season
Missed half of the 2007-08 season
Missed practically half of the 2011-12 season

Like, how is this even debatable?

Because Kobe also missed 17 games in 04...

And Kobe lost the 05 season to injury...and missed the playoffs. We really propping that up as better than Wade's 08? Why?

Kobe just missed an entire playoffs due to injury.

People claim he was hurt in 11 in the playoffs and that is why he wasn't good.

He was hurt in the first round in 10 and only got out because of a loaded team. If he had the kind of help Wade did in 07...he's losing in round 1.


If you really think Wade is better than Kobe ever was...injuries over the last 10 years should not be a big enough factor. Kobe has lost 2 seasons to injuries essentially...and again...many claim he lost in 11 because of injuries.

Just not that big of a difference at all really.

[PJR]

Kobe has durability over Wade. That's without question. But if Wade never had the freak shoulder injury in 2007, then even that wouldn't look like that big of a deal. That one injury robbed him a year n half of his prime.

Regardless, there is no objective piece of information you can point to that suggest that Kobe has a bigger impact on games. None whatsoever. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Does anything matter? Does it matter if Kobe misses this entire season? Are they going to win a title this year if he was healthy? What an inane argument.

What? So Kobe playing 15 more games in 05 vs Wade's 08 is such a big deal? Why? Why the **** does that matter? The point is that neither of them those years were doing anything...they did nothing.

So you want me to take Kobe over Wade because he's going to play a few more games 1 year and still miss the playoffs with a good team? LOL

So was Kobe hurt in 11? Or did he just suck? Because it was always the "hurt excuse"...

And do we have to ignore Kobe missing the playoffs due to injury last year...and now he's missing a ton of games this year as well.

Really?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What? So Kobe playing 15 more games in 05 vs Wade's 08 is such a big deal? Why? Why the **** does that matter? The point is that neither of them those years were doing anything...they did nothing.

So you want me to take Kobe over Wade because he's going to play a few more games 1 year and still miss the playoffs with a good team? LOL

I could give two shits who or why you take who you take. These guys get compared every year.

2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2012-13 NBA All-NBA (3rd)


2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2012-13 NBA All-NBA (1st)

But if deluding yourself into believing that the difference is a handful of meaningless games knock yourself out.

[tpols]

So in 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2011, 2012, 2013 Kobe was voted over Wade.. and they were both voted first team in 2009, 2010. There was never a year Wade was first and Kobe was second.

7>0..


Guys that watch and breathe basketball for a living concluded that Kobe was better in the large majority of the years.

[DMAVS41]

I could give two shits who or why you take who you take. These guys get compared every year.

2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2012-13 NBA All-NBA (3rd)


2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2012-13 NBA All-NBA (1st)

But if deluding yourself into believing that the difference is a handful of meaningless games knock yourself out.


I could give two shits about those meaningless awards...I care more about true impact.

Like Wade clearly being the better defender over that time;

http://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/


But yea, keep deluding yourself that popular opinion should mean more than facts and reality.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Because Kobe also missed 17 games in 04...

And Kobe lost the 05 season to injury...and missed the playoffs. We really propping that up as better than Wade's 08? Why?

Kobe just missed an entire playoffs due to injury.

People claim he was hurt in 11 in the playoffs and that is why he wasn't good.

He was hurt in the first round in 10 and only got out because of a loaded team. If he had the kind of help Wade did in 07...he's losing in round 1.


If you really think Wade is better than Kobe ever was...injuries over the last 10 years should not be a big enough factor. Kobe has lost 2 seasons to injuries essentially...and again...many claim he lost in 11 because of injuries.

Just not that big of a difference at all really.

I said Wade was better than Kobe ever was in 2009. Otherwise? They're about equal if we're talking the last 10 years. It's that close. I would probably lean towards Kobe though given his accomplishments (an MVP, 2 Finals MVPs, more first team selections etc.)

From 2003 - on, I think Bean has played about a full season more of games.

[chazzy]

Wade got injured in the playoffs in 05, regular season 07 and 08, playoffs in 09, finals in 11, reg season and playoffs in 12, playoffs in 13

[DMAVS41]

I said Wade was better than Kobe ever was in 2009. Otherwise? They're about equal if we're talking the last 10 years. It's that close. I would probably lean towards Kobe though given his accomplishments (an MVP, 2 Finals MVPs, more first team selections etc.)

From 2003 - on, I think Bean has played about a full season more of games.

Are you including Kobe missing the entire 13 playoffs and now missing a lot of time this season as well?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I could give two shits about those meaningless awards...I care more about true impact.

Like Wade clearly being the better defender over that time;

http://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/


But yea, keep deluding yourself that popular opinion should mean more than facts and reality.

Aren't those the same "facts" that say Magic Johnson had more of a defensive impact than Dennis Rodman for the entire decade of the 90s?


http://i.imgur.com/BjdlJqx.png

[tpols]

basically.. 03-05 is Kobe. Wade was a rook and wasnt established(wasnt even in the league for one of the years). 06-08 was Kobe again. 09 is Wade. 10 is a wash. 11 through 13 are a wash. Wade was better towards the start in 2011 but Kobe was definitely stronger towards the 13 side.

Overall its something like 5 to 2ish in Kobe's favor taking the draws out.

[DMAVS41]

Wade got injured in the playoffs in 05, regular season 07 and 08, playoffs in 09, finals in 11, reg season and playoffs in 12, playoffs in 13

Exactly.

And Kobe missed time in 04, got injured in 05, was hurt in the playoffs in 10, was hurt in the playoffs in 11, missed the playoffs entirely in 13 due to injury, and now is out a ton of time in the 14 season.

[DMAVS41]

basically.. 03-05 is Kobe. Wade was a rook and wasnt established(wasnt even in the league for one of the years). 06-08 was Kobe again. 09 is Wade. 10 is a wash. 11 through 13 are a wash. Wade was better towards the start in 2011 but Kobe was definitely stronger towards the 13 side.

Overall its something like 5 to 2ish in Kobe's favor taking the draws out.

I don't think that is fair at all. You also need to learn to count. 03 is absolutely not a part of this. Wade wasn't in the league and that would take it to 12 years. 04 shouldn't even be a part of this as this would be year 10.

04 Kobe
05 Wade
06 Wash
07 Kobe
08 Kobe
09 Wash
10 Wash
11 Wade
12 Wash
13 Wade
14 Wade

How can Kobe be better in 13 when he was injured? Isn't that the argument you guys are using against Wade in 07? 07 Wade was every bit as good as 07 Kobe when he played.

And I'm including 04 just to make it debatable. The prompt says last decade...and this would be year 11. So really it should start in 05 if we are being technical.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Are you including Kobe missing the entire 13 playoffs and now missing a lot of time this season as well?

Including this year, it's still more than half a season of games.

[poido123]

...

[DMAVS41]

Aren't those the same "facts" that say Magic Johnson had more of a defensive impact than Dennis Rodman for the entire decade of the 90s?


http://i.imgur.com/BjdlJqx.png

Better than an award that votes Kobe an elite defender.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

basically.. 03-05 is Kobe. Wade was a rook and wasnt established(wasnt even in the league for one of the years). 06-08 was Kobe again. 09 is Wade. 10 is a wash. 11 through 13 are a wash. Wade was better towards the start in 2011 but Kobe was definitely stronger towards the 13 side.

Overall its something like 5 to 2ish in Kobe's favor taking the draws out.

Nah. I'd take rookie and sophomore Wade over 2004 and 2005 Kobe (who was also injured).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7o6Yt5h_3s

Kobe ain't doing shit like this ...

[tpols]

Aren't those the same "facts" that say Magic Johnson had more of a defensive impact than Dennis Rodman for the entire decade of the 90s?


http://i.imgur.com/BjdlJqx.png
They also said that Wade is a 0 impact defender.. Kobe is negative on it:oldlol:


I dont know what to make of these stats man. Kobe isnt a defensive anchor by any means and his biggest value as a defender is his man defense which isnt going to show up in team defensive stats.

Like Gary Payton is a great man defender.. one of the best ever. And his impact does not show up in these stats.. because theyre team defense stats. They dont reflect one guy limiting a another and taking him off his game. Like what Payton did to MJ in 96.. that wouldnt be captured in the stats because Payton was being used to limit one guy who happened to be the head of the snake.

If Gary shuts Michael down and they both go to the bench, scrubs come in and dont score well on each other.. it looks like what replaced Payton was doing just as good a job defensively as he was. Except he was shutting down a premier player at critical points. The stat doesnt tell you that though.



I just dont know what one player going from -.5 to 0 or .5 is going to do for your defense. Kobe has already proven he can be a key piece on a top ranked defense. He's done it like 8 or 9 times. They switched an old Kobe onto Westbrook and Rondo because Fisher couldnt keep up with them. If he was that bad a defender whyd he draw the tougher assignments and actually limit them below their averages they put up with other players guarding them?


I just dont see the difference. Wade's .5 extra RAPM while being a worse man defender just isnt going to dramatically shift the way a defense plays. It's miniscule. If you want to talk a KG or Wallace or something sure.. theyre making an average defense elite almost by themselves. Wade? Not at all. It's such a little difference its not even funny.

I'd take the more dangerous and prolific offensive play that Kobe Bryant can offer over that difference. And the better clutch play by all measurable statistics. Kobe has been more clutch than Wade in basically every year according to 82 games crunchtime stats. Thats more meaningful to me than .3 more RAPM. Its real tangible stuff.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Better than an award that votes Kobe an elite defender.

Not everybody can be Derick Fisher.

[DMAVS41]

They also said that Wade is a 0 impact defender.. Kobe is negative on it:oldlol:


I dont know what to make of these stats man. Kobe isnt a defensive anchor by any means and his biggest value as a defender is his man defense which isnt going to show up in team defensive stats.

Like Gary Payton is a great man defender.. one of the best ever. And his impact does not show up in these stats.. because theyre team defense stats. They dont reflect one guy limiting a another and taking him off his game. Like what Payton did to MJ in 96.. that wouldnt be captured in the stats because Payton was being used to limit one guy who happened to be the head of the snake.

If Gary shuts Michael down and they both go to the bench, scrubs come in and dont score well on each other.. it looks like what replaced Payton was doing just as good a job defensively as he was. Except he was shutting down a premier player at critical points. The stat doesnt tell you that though.



I just dont know what one player going from -.5 to 0 or .5 is going to do for your defense. Kobe has already proven he can be a key piece on a top ranked defense. He's done it like 8 or 9 times. They switched an old Kobe onto Westbrook and Rondo because Fisher couldnt keep up with them. If he was that bad a defender whyd he draw the tougher assignments and actually limit them below their averages they put up with other players guarding them?


I just dont see the difference. Wade's .5 extra RAPM while being a worse man defender just isnt going to dramatically shift the way a defense plays. It's miniscule. If you want to talk a KG or Wallace or something sure.. theyre making an average defense elite almost by themselves. Wade? Not at all. It's such a little difference its not even funny.

I'd take the more dangerous and prolific offensive play that Kobe Bryant can offer over that difference. And the better clutch play by all measurable statistics. Kobe has been more clutch than Wade in basically every year according to 82 games crunchtime stats. Thats more meaningful to me than .3 more RAPM. Its real tangible stuff.

You miss the point. The point is that you can't claim Kobe is a better defender than Wade. Literally nothing supports it other than subjective defensive voting.

There is other stuff out there as well, but I'm too lazy to go find it all. Kobe makes more defensive errors, and isn't the kind of off ball defender or shot blocker Wade is.

So using an award to claim Kobe is a better defender is pointless. It's not an argument the Kobe side can make.

You want to make other arguments...go ahead...just don't make that one.

[tpols]

You miss the point. The point is that you can't claim Kobe is a better defender than Wade. Literally nothing supports it other than subjective defensive voting.

There is other stuff out there as well, but I'm too lazy to go find it all. Kobe makes more defensive errors, and isn't the kind of off ball defender or shot blocker Wade is.

So using an award to claim Kobe is a better defender is pointless. It's not an argument the Kobe side can make.

You want to make other arguments...go ahead...just don't make that one.
No.. the point is that even according to your heavy reliance on relatively obscure statistics Wade's impact on defense is still basically 0 and barely better than Kobe's.

According to RAPM, Wade and Kobe BOTH provide almost no impact defensively. Wade is higher, but its not by an amount that is game changing at all.


And according to RAPM Wade and Kobe's offense are very very important. So if 90% if their impact comes from the offensive side of the ball.. it should hold higher weight in a comparison. And their numbers are very similar except Kobe is more profilic and dominant with his 'big' games while Wade is more consistent. Their total efficiencies are about the same. Kobe is more clutch according to cruchtime stats(and just watchin games) and durable however especially in his championship runs.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You miss the point. The point is that you can't claim Kobe is a better defender than Wade. Literally nothing supports it other than subjective defensive voting.

There is other stuff out there as well, but I'm too lazy to go find it all. Kobe makes more defensive errors, and isn't the kind of off ball defender or shot blocker Wade is.

So using an award to claim Kobe is a better defender is pointless. It's not an argument the Kobe side can make.

You want to make other arguments...go ahead...just don't make that one.

"Subjective defensive voting" has been the standard for the entirety of NBA history. :confusedshrug:

[chazzy]

Exactly.

And Kobe missed time in 04, got injured in 05, was hurt in the playoffs in 10, was hurt in the playoffs in 11, missed the playoffs entirely in 13 due to injury, and now is out a ton of time in the 14 season.
Some of those aren't on the same scale of severity though. Like 2010 Kobe had a swollen knee for just a series and was fine the rest of the way. 05 Kobe actually put up solid numbers when he played and led the Lakers to the 7th best offense, but that team played 0 defense.

The season in play are 03-04 to 12-13 btw

[DMAVS41]

Some of those aren't on the same scale of severity though. Like 2010 Kobe had a swollen knee for just a series and was fine the rest of the way. 05 Kobe actually put up solid numbers when he played and led the Lakers to the 7th best offense, but that team played 0 defense.

Wait...07 Wade didn't put up solid numbers when he played? Wade in 07 averaged 27/8/5 in the 51 games he played.

Some of the ones you listed aren't anything either. How is Kobe's 11 any different than some of the Wade stuff? Or Wade coming back in 05 any different than Kobe in 10 against the Thunder.

[Mr. Jabbar]

04 Kobe
05 Wade
06 Wash
07 Kobe
08 Kobe
09 Wash
10 Wash
11 Wade
12 Wash
13 Wade
14 Wade



can it get any more biased than this? you basically wrote "wash" instead of kobe :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

No.. the point is that even according to your heavy reliance on relatively obscure statistics Wade's impact on defense is still basically 0 and barely better than Kobe's.

According to RAPM, Wade and Kobe BOTH provide almost no impact defensively. Wade is higher, but its not by an amount that is game changing at all.


And according to RAPM Wade and Kobe's offense are very very important. So if 90% if their impact comes from the offensive side of the ball.. it should hold higher weight in a comparison. And their numbers are very similar except Kobe is more profilic and dominant with his 'big' games while Wade is more consistent. Their total efficiencies are about the same. Kobe is more clutch according to cruchtime stats(and just watchin games) and durable however especially in his championship runs.


No...the point is that you can't claim Kobe is better defensively. The above is just 1 thing. Go look at all the other stuff...

That is the point. I don't care what you do with the above or how you put Wade vs Kobe together. I'm just saying that listing Kobe as the superior defender is not possible.

That is the point. You missed it yet again.

[Alan Ogg]

http://i.imgur.com/87zf5Ow.jpg

[DMAVS41]

can it get any more biased than this? you basically wrote "wash" instead of kobe :facepalm

Explain to me how Kobe was better in 06, 09, or 10...he just wasn't. And then on injuries alone...Wade takes 11, 13, and 14 to date. See...you Kobe guys can't have it both ways. You can't talk about how Kobe was better in 07 and then turn around and not talk about the injuries to Kobe since 10. Sorry.

You could argue Kobe was better in 12, but I don't really think Kobe's total abandonment of any semblance of defense can go without notice.

[tpols]

No...the point is that you can't claim Kobe is better defensively. The above is just 1 thing. Go look at all the other stuff...

That is the point. I don't care what you do with the above or how you put Wade vs Kobe together. I'm just saying that listing Kobe as the superior defender is not possible.

That is the point. You missed it yet again.

But it all doesnt matter.

Ive never said Kobe is a better defender than Wade. Most people who say they prefer Wade over Kobe have one reason in common. And that is they think Wade's extra effort defensively makes him more valuable.

But according to your stats, Wade does essentially nothing to make a defense elite. He's a 0 to like .8 while guys like Paul Millsap post 3.5s. Is Paul Millsap triple the defender Wade is?


It's just silly. My main thing is why are you focusing on such a small impact category in a comparison of these two guys? They both, according to your measures not mine, have waaaaaay more value offensively than defensively. So why is defense the deciding factor in so many Wade fans minds?

[Mr. NBA]

I think the answer is pretty clear who has been the better SG. You can't penalize a guy for having a " stacked " team. Kobe had Pau and who else exactly? I would not consider Ariza, Fisher, injured Bynum, Metta, Sasha, Farmar a stacked team.

Kobe has carried crap teams to the playoffs as has Wade. As the man, Wade has 1 ring. Kobe has at least 2. You can compare averages, but let's also remember Kobe had to run through the West against OKC, Spurs, Denver, Hornets. Although Orlando was weak as hell, Boston was just as capable if not for injuries.

Wades run as the man he played Bulls, aging Nets, and the end of the Pistons.

Now if you go by this format, Kobe has had more success while being in the stacked West. Even by statistics, Kobe has an advantage. No homer shades on at all.

[moe94]

can it get any more biased than this? you basically wrote "wash" instead of kobe :facepalm

How is it even a wash, much less Kobe for 09? 09 Wade, his peak, is arguably better than Kobe's peak

[tpols]

I think the answer is pretty clear who has been the better SG. You can't penalize a guy for having a " stacked " team. Kobe had Pau and who else exactly? I would not consider Ariza, Fisher, injured Bynum, Metta, Sasha, Farmar a stacked team.

Kobe has carried crap teams to the playoffs as has Wade. As the man, Wade has 1 ring. Kobe has at least 2. You can compare averages, but let's also remember Kobe had to run through the West against OKC, Spurs, Denver, Hornets. Although Orlando was weak as hell, Boston was just as capable if not for injuries.

Wades run as the man he played Bulls, aging Nets, and the end of the Pistons.

Now if you go by this format, Kobe has had more success while being in the stacked West. Even by statistics, Kobe has an advantage. No homer shades on at all.
It's also interesting what came of the super duper frontcourt of Odom-Bynum-Gasol...

Gasol 0-20 in the playoffs w/o Kobe and some pathetic numbers/showings since 2010.. just a guy with no balls at all/needs someone else to step up for him to thrive alongside

Odom turning into a crackhead and quitting basketball right after he was included in a trade to ship his ass out of LA to New Orleans..

Bynum missing like 100 straight games and quitting on every subsequent team he joined..


Really amazing people can call Kobe a chemistry killer, non-leader, etc. Look at how these guys played under his leadership and then how they performed after. It's clear as day he got more out of them than what they wouldve mustered up had they been on their own.

[DMAVS41]

But it all doesnt matter.

Ive never said Kobe is a better defender than Wade. Most people who say they prefer Wade over Kobe have one reason in common. And that is they think Wade's extra effort defensively makes him more valuable.

But according to your stats, Wade does essentially nothing to make a defense elite. He's a 0 to like .8 while guys like Paul Millsap post 3.5s. Is Paul Millsap triple the defender Wade is?


It's just silly. My main thing is why are you focusing on such a small impact category in a comparison of these two guys? They both, according to your measures not mine, have waaaaaay more value offensively than defensively. So why is defense the deciding factor in so many Wade fans minds?


It's not.

I simply responded to someone using defense in favor of Kobe. I'm not focused on it at all. All I said is that it can't be used in favor of Kobe.

It this really that hard?

I like Wade because of how he plays the game...I do think he is better defensively, I think he's a better and more willing passer, I like how he plays against the best defenses in the playoffs, I like his unselfishness on the court more, I think he was harder to stop in the playoffs at his peak, I think he's a better finals performer. i think he's a better leader as well.

And that is the on court stuff. With Wade I don't think you worry about him and Shaq co-existing, Howard leaving arguably the best market in all of sports, behind the scenes beefs, coaches writing books about how hard he is to coach...etc.

I never have ever said it isn't close, but give me Wade.

[Dro]

I can't believe this went 7 pages. I can't believe people agree with OP, lol...

[Mr. Jabbar]

I can't believe this went 7 pages. I can't believe people agree with OP, lol...

if you look closely, those are the same ppl that always hate on kobe. shocking..

[red1]

after reviewing all of the information presented I give it to kobe with wade a close second. predictably jerry stackhouse is third

[DMAVS41]

if you look closely, those are the same ppl that always hate on kobe. shocking..

See...it's just not hating to take Wade over Kobe since 05...it's just not.

That is the big problem.

[Mr. Jabbar]

well, lets not forget what this thread is all about: draw attention away from lebron-less heat on a b2b beating up portland at their own court :applause:

[red1]

well, lets not forget what this thread is all about: draw attention away from lebron-less heat on a b2b beating up portland at their own court :applause:
wow so you are saying he coached his team to victory from the sidelines? looks like coachbe has some competition

[NumberSix]

well, lets not forget what this thread is all about: draw attention away from lebron-less heat on a b2b beating up portland at their own court :applause:
Why would I of all people want to draw attention away from that?:confusedshrug:

[Mr. Jabbar]

wow so you are saying he coached his team to victory from the sidelines? looks like coachbe has some competition

could be, xmas mvp may end up being a good coach, who knows, if dantoni can do it, theres hope for everyone

[FPJ]

Meanwhile, in LA...

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m520/Avionols/dribbling1_zps60d96e03.jpg (http://s1129.photobucket.com/user/Avionols/media/dribbling1_zps60d96e03.jpg.html)

[kNIOKAS]

I saw him blatantly fouling the shooter twice in wanning seconds yesterday. You saw him. That's Wade.

[DMAVS41]

Some of those aren't on the same scale of severity though. Like 2010 Kobe had a swollen knee for just a series and was fine the rest of the way. 05 Kobe actually put up solid numbers when he played and led the Lakers to the 7th best offense, but that team played 0 defense.

The season in play are 03-04 to 12-13 btw

Why? Who stated that we aren't counting this year....seems like this year is absolutely relevant to this discussion.

Put it this way...do you think it would be valid to use injuries against Kobe in a comparison between him and Dirk from 00 through 10?

Kobe missed 81 games during that time

Dirk missed 29 games during that time

Injuries really going to play such a big role in determining the better player here as well?

[moe94]

well, lets not forget what this thread is all about: draw attention away from lebron-less heat on a b2b beating up portland at their own court :applause:

The "wit" of jabbar on full display.

[BlackVVaves]

Arguable, but there are 9 more years to consider.

How was last year arguable?

[fpliii]

All NBA selections

2013: Kobe 1st team All NBA, Wade 3rd team

2012: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 3rd team

2011: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 2nd team

2010: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 1st team

2009: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 1st team

2008: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade not selected

2007: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 3rd team

2006: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade 2nd team

2005: Kobe 3rd team All NBA Wade 2nd team

2004: Kobe 1st team All NBA Wade not selected


http://thecensus.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/kobe.gif

Why would you cite this as if those selections mean anything at all?

Kobe is higher all-time, but when both he and Wade were at their respective peaks or both healthy in their primes, don't front and pretend they're not on the same level.

[moe94]

Kobe Bryant has the most first team all D selections for a guard. Think about that the next time you use those teams as evidence of anything but popularity.

[fpliii]

Aren't those the same "facts" that say Magic Johnson had more of a defensive impact than Dennis Rodman for the entire decade of the 90s?


http://i.imgur.com/BjdlJqx.png

No, because RAPM doesn't exist prior to play-by-play data (meaning before 00-01 until recently, when the NBA released the rest of its data, going back to 96-97). Those are regression-based numbers, NOT RAPM.

[DMAVS41]

No, because RAPM doesn't exist prior to play-by-play data (meaning before 00-01 until recently, when the NBA released the rest of its data, going back to 96-97). Those are regression-based numbers, NOT RAPM.

Thank you!

I've been trying to explain that to them for months now.

[The Iron Fist]

Wade's 2003-2013 is better than any other SG during the same time.
So lebron can't win without Wade or a stacked team.


:applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No, because RAPM doesn't exist prior to play-by-play data (meaning before 00-01 until recently, when the NBA released the rest of its data, going back to 96-97). Those are regression-based numbers, NOT RAPM.

Link says "RAPM of the entire 90s" :confusedshrug:

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

[The Iron Fist]

I don't think its possible for Kobe to lead a team to 15 wins, especially in the east.

15 wins.

In the east.

Awesome job Wade!

Has any fmvp ever done that before?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Thank you!

I've been trying to explain that to them for months now.

Please explain the difference between regression based numbers and RAPM specifically when it comes to comparing the defensive metrics of Dennis Rodman and Magic Johnson.

[DMAVS41]

Link says "RAPM of the entire 90s" :confusedshrug:

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

We've been over this. It used to have a disclaimer saying it wasn't actually RAPM..and then it got taken down.

I'll let the other guy speak to it because he obviously knows more than I do.

[The Iron Fist]

We've been over this. It used to have a disclaimer saying it wasn't actually RAPM..and then it got taken down.

I'll let the other guy speak to it because he obviously knows more than I do.
Which guy? We all know more than you.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Why would you cite this as if those selections mean anything at all?

Kobe is higher all-time, but when both he and Wade were at their respective peaks or both healthy in their primes, don't front and pretend they're not on the same level.

They certainly mean more than RAPM.

If two players were at the same level and had relevant peaks at around the same time we would expect an even representation on all league teams. We would not expect one player to never place ahead of the other over the course of the entire decade.

[DMAVS41]

Please explain the difference between regression based numbers and RAPM specifically when it comes to comparing the defensive metrics of Dennis Rodman and Magic Johnson.

I can't, what I can tell you...and have told you. Is that site used to have a disclaimer saying that those were not actual RAPM numbers because the data wasn't available.

That is all. I don't know what the other guy is talking about, but he seems to know more about it.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

We've been over this. It used to have a disclaimer saying it wasn't actually RAPM..and then it got taken down.

I'll let the other guy speak to it because he obviously knows more than I do.


So you blindly and desperately cling to statistics you don't understand.

Sounds about right.

[DMAVS41]

They certainly mean more than RAPM.

If two players were at the same level and had relevant peaks at around the same time we would expect an even representation on all league teams. We would not expect one player to never place ahead of the other over the course of the entire decade.

Too much subjectivity comes into play...you know this. Even coaches readily admit that when they vote for Kobe for all-defense...they say it's because that is who they would want guarding a guy with the ball the last play of the game.

They aren't looking into actual defensive impact in detail or anything.

[PJR]

I don't think its possible for Kobe to lead a team to 15 wins, especially in the east.

15 wins.

In the east.

Awesome job Wade!

Has any fmvp ever done that before?

Is this all the ammunition you got? Wade was coming off knee and shoulder operations in 2007, and was a shell of himself. And the team was terrible all together (started the season 1-8 without Wade).

Riley traded Shaq for Shawn Marion's contract, and proceeded to tank the latter portion of the season to get the worst record.

What Kobe did in 2005 was not all that much better. 28-38 in the 66 games he played. You Kobe stans have nothing. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

So you blindly and desperately cling to statistics you don't understand.

Sounds about right.

What? I said I don't know what the 90's stuff is. So I don't ever post that.

Stop shifting the goal posts...

[DMAVS41]

Is this all the ammunition you got? Wade was coming off knee and shoulder operations in 2007, and was a shell of himself the team was terrible all together (started the season 1-8 without Wade).

Riley tanked the latter portion of the season to get the worst record.

What Kobe did in 2005 was not all that much better. 28-38 in the 66 games he played. You Kobe stans have nothing. :oldlol:

This. It's the worst argument ever to pretend like there is some massive gap between those years as if it means anything. No team led by 05 Kobe or 08 Wade was doing anything in the playoffs or anything meaningful...now we need to get caught up in Kobe playing 15 more games or some other nonsense?

LOL

[The Iron Fist]

Is this all the ammunition you got? Wade was coming off knee and shoulder operations in 2007, and was a shell of himself the team was terrible all together (started the season 1-8 without Wade).

Riley tanked the latter portion of the season to get the worst record.

What Kobe did in 2005 was not all that much better. 28-38 in the 66 games he played. You Kobe stans have nothing. :oldlol:


28 in the west>15

[BlackVVaves]

05, 09, and 11 are the only years I'd say Wade definitely better, with 09 being the closest of the 3

Yeah, this. Not sure if OP is serious with the whole, last year was arguable.

But, for those of us that have been here long enough, we know what NumberSix is conjuring in this thread, right? This is his feeble and facetious attempt to troll the **** out of dubious Kobe stans who use the argument "5>2" to justify their belief that Kobe is superior to LeBron. Because, by that logic, Wade's 3 titles in the last 10 years means he's better than Kobe and his 2.

Serving them a taste of their own medicine. I don't blame you OP, but come now, why join Kobetards in their flawed intellect? Besides, in that same 10 year span, Kobe has a MVP, and 2 FMVPs, while Wade has no MVPs and only 1 FMVP.

Also, for comparison's sake, Wade was a much more inferior 2nd option during the playoffs in his last two championship runs than Kobe was during the 3 peat years (the last two championships of those years, I should say). To the effect that, Kobe was more of a 1B per his elite production offensively and defensively, while Wade was clearly the second option (and sometimes outperformed by Bosh).

In any case, no, Wade has not been the best guard of the last 10 years. But, for those of you who are jumping in madness yet stubbornly support the same sentiments when applied to LeBron and Kobe's comparison, maybe you should look into the mirror. While I don't think Bron should be ranked higher than Kobe All Time yet, I do think he has been playing at a level over the last two seasons that Kobe never reached.

In other words, LeBron's prime > Kobe's prime. LeBron's peak > Kobe's peak. You really can't be an objective individual and argue it anymore. Especially if you are solely analyzing their production.

[PJR]

28 in the west>15

Well you got me there. Only 13 more wins than a team purposely trying to tank(playing guys like Chris Quinn and Kasib Powell) Congrats.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Too much subjectivity comes into play...you know this. Even coaches readily admit that when they vote for Kobe for all-defense...they say it's because that is who they would want guarding a guy with the ball the last play of the game.

They aren't looking into actual defensive impact in detail or anything.

We are talking about all defensive team awards AND all league awards.

Are you under the impression that Kobe Bryant's defensive reputation was earned in a different way than any other defensive player in the history of the NBA?

Why is Dennis Rodman considered one of the greatest defensive players of all time? His defensive impact measured by defensive metrics?

[fpliii]

Link says "RAPM of the entire 90s" :confusedshrug:

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

It's "Fake RAPM":

http://www.apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8067

The play-by-play data doesn't exist.


They certainly mean more than RAPM.

If two players were at the same level and had relevant peaks at around the same time we would expect an even representation on all league teams. We would not expect one player to never place ahead of the other over the course of the entire decade.

The bolded is unquestionably not the case, especially when comparing players in similar roles of similar calibers. I know you don't truly believe this my good man, I've interacted with you on here before and know you're not naive/dense. I'm a big Kobe fan, but all-NBA/all-defense selections are useless. I'd still go with Kobe at his best probably, but he's not on another tier in terms of level of play (not talking about careers/legacy lists, which I don't bother with at all).

[The Iron Fist]

Well you got me there. Only 13 more wins than a team purposely trying to tank(playing guys like Chris Quinn and Kasib Powell) Congrats.


Winning 28 in the west under two head coaches, new system and new players>>>15 while, lol, "trying to tank".

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What? I said I don't know what the 90's stuff is. So I don't ever post that.

Stop shifting the goal posts...

Based on the titles used by the author its RAPM of the 90s or at the very worst the closest estimation of that data. :confusedshrug:

[fpliii]

Anyhow, we're not having this discussion if Kobe peaks at the same time offensively and defensively. I know he made his own bed, but if you give him a better second scorer than Odom, he'd roll off three more (well, more likely two since he'd still get hurt in 04-05) seasons like 07-08 or better. :pimp:

[DMAVS41]

05, 09, and 11 are the only years I'd say Wade definitely better, with 09 being the closest of the 3

And 04, 07, and 08 Kobe was definitely better.

06, 10, and 12 are a wash...and then I don't get how you can claim Kobe was better in 13 when you clearly factor in injuries so heavily.

Seems pretty damn even to me...and of course Wade is definitely better this year so far as well.

Maybe you aren't saying this, but why is it crazy to take Wade over the last 10 years again?

[pegasus]

This thread is a trolling attempt to distract people from discussing how Lebron's super stacked team beat the hottest team in the league on the road without Lebron.

Bosh >>> Lebron

[Element]

Wade's 2003-2013 is better than any other SG during the same time.

Lemme check

2003: Wade wasn't even in the league. Meanwhile, Kobe was busy having a 30/7/6 season and had his first huge scoring binge, the 9 game 40-point streak.

2004: Kobe was better than rookie Wade not even close lol.

2005: Kobe. Check the $tatss. Not only that, but Wade wasn't even a consistently good defensive player yet.

2006: I know Wade stans are trying to argue that his whistle-fest against the Mavericks somehow outweighs everything else, but nope. Kobe easily. Every perimeter star feasted on the Mavs that year.

2007: is there even a point in going on with this.

2008: :sleeping

2009: Hey! Dwyane Wade was actually better that year :applause:

2010: Wade... :pimp: LOL NO PLOT TWIST

2011: Kobe old and on one leg, plus a minute restriction as well as turrible defense. Wade meanwhile beasting in the RS on both ends and shredding both Boston and Mavs to pieces in playoffs. Should've gotten another ring.

2012: Tie

2013: Kobe clearly. Kobe scored way more on better efficiency, was a great playmaker and Wade only played good defense for what, 2 months? Not enough to outweigh Kobe's advantages.

Kobe wins what? 7 or 8 times here? Lol.

[PJR]

Winning 28 in the west under two head coaches, new system and new players>>>15 while, lol, "trying to tank".

Like I said. You got nothing.

The almighty Kobe missed the playoffs a year in his absolute prime. And he wasn't exactly coming off knee and shoulder surgery. Pathetic. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

We are talking about all defensive team awards AND all league awards.

Are you under the impression that Kobe Bryant's defensive reputation was earned in a different way than any other defensive player in the history of the NBA?

Why is Dennis Rodman considered one of the greatest defensive players of all time? His defensive impact measured by defensive metrics?

To put Kobe on the level of Rodman is idiotic. Kobe played way better defense before the last 10 years. Way better.

Stop shifting so much. This is about the last 10 years...you are basically admitting he wasn't great on defense and got it off rep.

That is our ****ing point!

[k0kakw0rld]

Dude doesn't get enough credit. 3 rings, a FMVP, epic performances and by far the most dominant finals. His 06 and 09 seasons by far the best of any guard in the last 10 years.
Wade is that dude but Kobe is clearly the best SG of the last decade.

[Heavincent]

He was hurt in the first round in 10 and only got out because of a loaded team. If he had the kind of help Wade did in 07...he's losing in round 1.


I love how you always spew this bullshit while ignoring the fact that Kobe's defense on Westbrook was probably the biggest key to the Lakers winning.

[fpliii]

Last note on RAPM...it's unreliable without a prior (initial distribution used to treat the data). So, from the data previously available, 01-02 is the first season for which it's useful. Here is all of the data J.E. put out there on real RAPM (not the fake RAPM regression):

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/

I've spoken to him via e-mail a few times, he's handcuffed right now because he's working for a team. User acrossthecourt from RealGM and APBRmetrics has started working with the older data (starting with 96-97), and is putting true RAPM out there:

ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com

So far he has released 96-97 and 97-98 NPI (non-prior informed), and just recently 97-98 (with a prior). RAPM analysis will be complete for the available data when he releases prior-informed 98-99, 99-00, 00-01 datasets. Those will be useful for this conversation, since they include Kobe's best defensive years. I certainly expect him to rate very well in those seasons.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

To put Kobe on the level of Rodman is idiotic. Kobe played way better defense before the last 10 years. Way better.

Stop shifting so much. This is about the last 10 years...you are basically admitting he wasn't great on defense and got it off rep.

That is our ****ing point!

Kobe dominated all defensive teams because

A) there is a superstar bias (applies to everyone)
B) other big name SGs ( Mcgrady, Carter, Roy, Manu (not so much but didnt play enough minutes), Johnson etc...) were notoriously bad on defense
C) Wade was frequently injured

Even if anybody cared about RAPM they would look at Wade missing 20+ games a season and not just shrug their shoulders at it and rationalize why that doesn't matter.

[DMAVS41]

I love how you always spew this bullshit while ignoring the fact that Kobe's defense on Westbrook was probably the biggest key to the Lakers winning.

Did I say Kobe didn't play a role? Nope.

I said he was lucky enough to have a championship team around him. Otherwise they are losing with Kobe struggling with his knee.

Which is just true.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Did I say Kobe didn't play a role? Nope.

I said he was lucky enough to have a championship team around him. Otherwise they are losing with Kobe struggling with his knee.

Which is just true.

Except they lost every game Kobe struggled in. :facepalm

Do you ever learn anything when you repeat the same exact talking points every 6 months?

[BlackVVaves]

And 04, 07, and 08 Kobe was definitely better.

06, 10, and 12 are a wash...and then I don't get how you can claim Kobe was better in 13 when you clearly factor in injuries so heavily.

Seems pretty damn even to me...and of course Wade is definitely better this year so far as well.

Maybe you aren't saying this, but why is it crazy to take Wade over the last 10 years again?

Let's be sensible here. Both players missed time due to injury last year. But, are you really trying to say that only playing in 76 of 82 games eradicates the fact that Kobe was CLEARLY playing at a Top 5 player in the league level, while Wade for large portions of the season was resembling a super-role player?

Dude missed 6 games bro. Not 16, not 30. He missed 6 games.

I agree that overall it's closer than many people are letting on in regards to Wade and Kobe over the last decade, but Kobe still was the better player in that span overall, and was most definitely the better player last season.

I can't believe last season is even up for debate :facepalm

27, 6, 6 on 57 TS% vs. 21, 5, 5 on 57 TS%

Wade was as good/better than Kobe last year? REALLY??

[DMAVS41]

Kobe dominated all defensive teams because

A) there is a superstar bias (applies to everyone)
B) other big name SGs ( Mcgrady, Carter, Roy, Manu (not so much but didnt play enough minutes), Johnson etc...) were notoriously bad on defense
C) Wade was frequently injured

Even if anybody cared about RAPM they would look at Wade missing 20+ games a season and not just shrug their shoulders at it and rationalize why that doesn't matter.

Dude. I just care about what actually happens on the court. I don't care about a subjective voting.

It was clear to anyone watching and looking at defensive measures that Kobe was not playing elite defense over the last decade.

You just want to ignore that and use defense for Kobe. And it's a joke to do so....sorry.

And you now finally learned that the 90's stuff is fake. So STFU about it and just admit you were wrong.

[Droid101]

Like I said. You got nothing.

The almighty Kobe missed the playoffs a year in his absolute prime. And he wasn't exactly coming off knee and shoulder surgery. Pathetic. :oldlol:
Wow, you are a terrible poster.

[DMAVS41]

Let's be sensible here. Both players missed time due to injury last year. But, are you really trying to say that only playing in 76 of 82 games eradicates the fact that Kobe was CLEARLY playing at a Top 5 player in the league level, while Wade for large portions of the season was resembling a super-role player.

Dude missed 6 games bro. Not 16, not 30. He missed 6 games.

I agree that overall it's closer than many people are letting on in regards to Wade and Kobe over the last decade, but Kobe still was the better player in that span overall, and was most definitely the better player last season.

I can't believe last season is even up for debate :facepalm

27, 6, 6 on 57 TS% vs. 21, 5, 5 on 57 TS%

Wade was as good/better than Kobe last year? REALLY??


Listen please.

Kobe missed the entire playoffs! Wade played in the playoffs. That difference is huge on the standard set by Chazzy and other Kobe fans. Huge.

Wade was the 2nd best player on a title winning team. Kobe didn't play a playoff game.

If these injuries are this big of a factor...I don't see how we can ignore that. Because in 07...Wade was great when he played. And I'm hearing that Kobe's 05 was better than Wade's 07...why again?

If we just compared regular seasons? Of course I go with Kobe. I've said that repeatedly.

But what do we do to stay consistent with the injury thing? Just shrug off Kobe missing the playoffs due to injury? And then turn around and hammer Wade for 07? Doesn't seem fair...

[PJR]

Wow, you are a terrible poster.

Suck my dick.

[fpliii]

Dude. I just care about what actually happens on the court. I don't care about a subjective voting.

It was clear to anyone watching and looking at defensive measures that Kobe was not playing elite defense over the last decade.

You just want to ignore that and use defense for Kobe. And it's a joke to do so....sorry.

And you now finally learned that the 90's stuff is fake. So STFU about it and just admit you were wrong.

He was a good defender at his position in 07-08 and 08-09 though:

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2008-rapm
https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm

and slightly above-average in 01-02 and 02-03:

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2002-rapm
https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2003-rapm

He wasn't a great defensive player from 03-04 through 06-07, but he was doing more offensively those seasons. I think he'll probably rate as one of the best defensive non-bigs when 98-99, 99-00, 00-01 RAPM comes out, among non-specialists.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Let's be sensible here. Both players missed time due to injury last year. But, are you really trying to say that only playing in 76 of 82 games eradicates the fact that Kobe was CLEARLY playing at a Top 5 player in the league level, while Wade for large portions of the season was resembling a super-role player?

Dude missed 6 games bro. Not 16, not 30. He missed 6 games.

I agree that overall it's closer than many people are letting on in regards to Wade and Kobe over the last decade, but Kobe still was the better player in that span overall, and was most definitely the better player last season.

I can't believe last season is even up for debate :facepalm

27, 6, 6 on 57 TS% vs. 21, 5, 5 on 57 TS%

Wade was as good/better than Kobe last year? REALLY??

Yeah. I normally don't defend Kobe, but some of the shit people say on here is crazy :biggums:

Revisionism....is a pet peeve of mine. Doesn't matter who the player and team is.

[DMAVS41]

He was a good defender at his position in 07-08 and 08-09 though:

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2008-rapm
https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm

and slightly above-average in 01-02 and 02-03:

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2002-rapm
https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2003-rapm

He wasn't a great defensive player from 03-04 through 06-07, but he was doing more offensively those seasons. I think he'll probably rate as one of the best defensive non-bigs when 98-99, 99-00, 00-01 RAPM comes out, among non-specialists.

08 for sure. He was very good.

[Heavincent]

Kobe is more durable and plays through injuries better than Wade. I don't really see how you could argue otherwise.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Dude. I just care about what actually happens on the court. I don't care about a subjective voting.

It was clear to anyone watching and looking at defensive measures that Kobe was not playing elite defense over the last decade.

You just want to ignore that and use defense for Kobe. And it's a joke to do so....sorry.

And you now finally learned that the 90's stuff is fake. So STFU about it and just admit you were wrong.

It was clear to everyone watching besides the coaches that vote for all defensive teams every year you mean. Shooting guards don't have large defensive impact. That's why when you are trying to carry yourself as non biased stats blogger instead of comparing Kobe to other SGs you compare him to legendary bigmen and forwards and pretend that Kobe won his awards over them.

I don't know why you are getting angry. I provided the closest approximation to RAPM available to us at this time for that time period. You should be thanking me.

[DMAVS41]

It was clear to everyone watching besides the coaches that vote for all defensive teams every year you mean. Shooting guards don't have large defensive impact. That's why when you are trying to carry yourself as non biased stats blogger instead of comparing Kobe to other SGs you compare him to legendary bigmen and forwards and pretend that Kobe won his awards over them.

I don't know why you are getting angry. I provided the closest approximation to RAPM available to us at this time for that time period. You should be thanking me.

I compared him to WADE!!!!

[Heavincent]

Did I say Kobe didn't play a role? Nope.

I said he was lucky enough to have a championship team around him. Otherwise they are losing with Kobe struggling with his knee.

Which is just true.

Is there a legitimate point buried somewhere in this post? Because I don't see it.

Kobe was "lucky enough" to play a 50 win team in the first round, while Wade gets to play some shitty 35-40 win team in the first round every year :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Yeah. I normally don't defend Kobe, but some of the shit people say on here is crazy :biggums:

Revisionism....is a pet peeve of mine. Doesn't matter who the player and team is.

So what do we do with the fact that Wade played 22 playoff games and Kobe played 0 due to injury.

That means less than Wade playing 15 less regular season games in 07 vs 05?

See how absurd this is getting?

[PJR]

Let's gloss over the fact that Kobe last season was an absolute SIEVE defensively. A sieve.

Wade 2013 Per: 24
Bryant 2013 Per: 23

Not even close? :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Is there a legitimate point buried somewhere in this post? Because I don't see it.

Kobe was "lucky enough" to play a 50 win team in the first round, while Wade gets to play some shitty 35-40 win team in the first round every year :oldlol:

It's about the injury moron. That injury just can't be shrugged off because the Lakers won that series. In another circumstance that injury could have cost Kobe and his team.

Just like Wade in 13. On a different team...Wade's injuries would have sent him packing.

This injury shit is useless and absolutely inconsistent on the part of Kobe fans.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I compared him to WADE!!!!

Not you the blogger you linked to.

[Brokenbeat]

So what do we do with the fact that Wade played 22 playoff games and Kobe played 0 due to injury.

That means less than Wade playing 15 less regular season games in 07 vs 05?

See how absurd this is getting?


:biggums:


It was absurd a few pages ago, lol. :roll:

[Heavincent]

It's about the injury moron. That injury just can't be shrugged off because the Lakers won that series. In another circumstance that injury could have cost Kobe and his team.

Just like Wade in 13. On a different team...Wade's injuries would have sent him packing.

This injury shit is useless and absolutely inconsistent on the part of Kobe fans.

This comparison makes no sense. Wade had the luxury of playing with Lebron ****ing James, Chris Bosh, and also had Ray Allen as his backup. Kobe in 2010 was obviously the best player on his team and was the only superstar.

Stupid comparison.

[BlackVVaves]

Listen please.

Kobe missed the entire playoffs! Wade played in the playoffs. That difference is huge on the standard set by Chazzy and other Kobe fans. Huge.

Wade was the 2nd best player on a title winning team. Kobe didn't play a playoff game.

If these injuries are this big of a factor...I don't see how we can ignore that. Because in 07...Wade was great when he played. And I'm hearing that Kobe's 05 was better than Wade's 07...why again?

If we just compared regular seasons? Of course I go with Kobe. I've said that repeatedly.

But what do we do to stay consistent with the injury thing? Just shrug off Kobe missing the playoffs due to injury? And then turn around and hammer Wade for 07? Doesn't seem fair...

Like I said, be sensible. I think people hammer Wade for being injured because overall, he has been injury prone throughout his career. Kobe has not, or rather, Kobe has played through his injuries much more which had an adverse effect on some of his seasons (2010 mostly, but 2011 he played with a ****ed up wrist that got injured during the pre-season. He should have let it heal, but he didn't. His FG% was even lower than usual as a result).

For me, Wade's injuries are a factor because they have been a constant throughout the decade. If it was one or two years, I wouldn't really care, everyone has injuries. But, Wade will forever be notorious for being injury prone. That must be weighted in the comparison.

I don't weigh it as heavily as others, but it definitely is a factor. Regardless, Kobe was better than Wade last season. It's not arguable, it's not comparable. Kobe missing 4-6 games of the regular season and a post-season sweep does not change that. At all.

[aj1987]

Haven't gone through the thread, but are people seriously trying to say that Wade > Kobe? :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Let's gloss over the fact that Kobe last season was an absolute SIEVE defensively. A sieve.

Wade 2013 Per: 24
Bryant 2013 Per: 23

Not even close? :oldlol:

Wade held opposing SGs to a PER of 14.4 last year

Kobe held them to a PER of 12.8.

:confusedshrug:

[BlackVVaves]

Let's gloss over the fact that Kobe last season was an absolute SIEVE defensively. A sieve.

Wade 2013 Per: 24
Bryant 2013 Per: 23

Not even close? :oldlol:

This is true, Wade was much a better defender last year. But again, overall, Kobe was the superior player. I've never been a slave to PER, and I won't start now.

More points, assists, boards, same TS%. I really can't believe some of you are arguing this, this is the most severe instance of revisionism I've seen on this board yet. Shit was just LAST season :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Like I said, be sensible. I think people hammer Wade for being injured because overall, he has been injury prone throughout his career. Kobe has not, or rather, Kobe has played through his injuries much more which had an adverse effect on some of his seasons (2010 mostly, but 2011 he played with a ****ed up wrist that got injured during the pre-season. He should have let it heal, but he didn't. His FG% was even lower than usual as a result).

For me, Wade's injuries are a factor because they have been a constant throughout the decade. If it was one or two years, I wouldn't really care, everyone has injuries. But, Wade will forever be notorious for being injury prone. That must be weighted in the comparison.

I don't weigh it as heavily as others, but it definitely is a factor. Regardless, Kobe was better than Wade last season. It's not arguable, it's not comparable. Kobe missing 4-6 games of the regular season and a post-season sweep does not change that. At all.

Then you simply can't hammer Wade for 07 on that criteria.

And you don't get...you be sensible. While Kobe was at home. Wade was playing 22 playoff games. 22 to 0. That is a lot more important than some regular season games.

Sorry. Kobe last year was absurdly over-rated if you think him getting injured and missing the entire playoffs still nets him an easy victory of a better year than Wade.

Kobe played absolutely horrendous defense and shot a lot more than Wade. That was really it. If a few games is no big deal...as you say...then you can't even use Wade playing a handful less games against him.

I would give Kobe the nod if it was just regular season, but to miss an entire playoffs while the guy you are being compared to goes on to play 22 playoff games and win a title...sorry, can't ignore that.

Wade played so much better in the 13 regular season than he's given credit for here. As ususal lets just reward a player for shooting a lot more while his team crumbles...

Be sensible...yes...I agree. Lets not ignore a player missing the playoffs entirely because of injury.

[MetsPackers]

OP must have received infinite negs for this thread. Within minutes Kobe ******gers had already posted 3 pages of gifs to make it look like anyone actually cares about their opinions. OPs statement may not have been true, but they missed the purpose completely. Its the "3>2" argument, a parody of the "5>2" argument, to demonstrate how fvcking retarded it is. Not surprised that none of those 14yos got it though. If this has already been pointed out my bad I only read 2 page

[DMAVS41]

This is true, Wade was much a better defender last year. But again, overall, Kobe was the superior player. I've never been a slave to PER, and I won't start now.

More points, assists, boards, same TS%. I really can't believe some of you are arguing this, this is the most severe instance of revisionism I've seen on this board yet. Shit was just LAST season :oldlol:

No, you are just ignoring the entire ****ing playoffs.

Wade was good last year in the regular season. Clearly not as good as Kobe, but the gap is not nearly as big as you are making it out to be.

And then Kobe doesn't play the playoffs while Wade does and wins a title. And we are supposed to give Kobe the year. When Kobe fans want Kobe's 05 to be ranked higher than Wade's 07 because of a 15 game regular season difference?

What the **** is sensible about that?

Wade in 07 was great when he played...yet that season is rendered meaningless by the side you are supporting.

Do you really not see the flaw?

If the reason people are using is "injuries"...it makes absolutely no sense to give Kobe 13. If, however, one were to not cling to the "injuries" notion...then that is a different story.

But Wade is not getting enough credit for his regular season or even his playoffs (while clearly hurt)...

[PJR]

Wade held opposing SGs to a PER of 14.4 last year

Kobe held them to a PER of 12.8.

:confusedshrug:

There's something called team defense and weak side recovery. And there is no stat you can refer to in this case. Kobe was terrible at it by all accounts.

[fpliii]

Wade held opposing SGs to a PER of 14.4 last year

Kobe held them to a PER of 12.8.

:confusedshrug:

You realize that they're not always guarding guys at their positions, right? Opponent PER doesn't draw that distinction. It just compares SG to SG, even if they aren't guarding each other. Defensive RAPM (not fake RAPM) and Synergy stats are more useful. This is ignorant at best, disingenuous at worst.

C'mon man, you're a good/smart poster but stop trying to make a case when it isn't there. I like Kobe, but he sucked on D last year, bottom line.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

There's something called team defense and weak side recovery. And there is no stat you can refer to in this case. And Kobe was terrible at it by all accounts.

That sounds awfully subjective to me. Shouldn't you have an individual metric measuring impact on team defense and weak side recovery before making such inflamatory comments?

[PJR]

This is true, Wade was much a better defender last year. But again, overall, Kobe was the superior player. I've never been a slave to PER, and I won't start now.

More points, assists, boards, same TS%. I really can't believe some of you are arguing this, this is the most severe instance of revisionism I've seen on this board yet. Shit was just LAST season :oldlol:

Meh, I'll take Wade. I am bias, though. Wade's level of play during the Heat's 27 game winning streak was sensational. Played much better defense. Kobe had the higher usage yet still had a lower PER.

It's not nearly of big of gap as your making it seem.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You realize that they're not always guarding guys at their positions, right? Opponent PER doesn't draw that distinction. It just compares SG to SG, even if they aren't guarding each other. Defensive RAPM (not fake RAPM) and Synergy stats are more useful. This is ignorant at best, disingenuous at worst.

C'mon man, you're a good/smart poster but stop trying to make a case when it isn't there. I like Kobe, but he sucked on D last year, bottom line.

He cited PER so I cited opposing PER. I don't have a notebook filled with each individual poster's preference for advanced metrics. 99% of the time they prefer whatever statistic appears to support their argument and have no idea what it actually measures.

[DMAVS41]

Meh, I'll take Wade. I am bias, though. Wade's level of play during the Heat's 27 game winning streak was sensational. Played much better defense. Kobe had the higher usage yet still had a lower PER.

It's not nearly of big of gap as your making it seem.


Basically...this is how absurd it's gotten.

Why is Kobe better than Wade?

Kobe fan;

Because Wade is always injured.


But what about 13 when Kobe blew out his achilles and then missed the playoffs due to injury while Wade played 22 playoff games to 0?

Kobe fan;

Nah...still give it to Kobe. Dat ppg average in the regular season!


But what about the other years in which you claim injuries are the key factor?

Kobe fan;

Oh ****...

[fpliii]

He cited PER so I cited opposing PER. I don't have a notebook filled with each individual poster's preference for advanced metrics. 99% of the time they prefer whatever statistic appears to support their argument and have no idea what it actually measures.

Dude don't argue with trolls then. You're being baited.

[DMAVS41]

He cited PER so I cited opposing PER. I don't have a notebook filled with each individual poster's preference for advanced metrics. 99% of the time they prefer whatever statistic appears to support their argument and have no idea what it actually measures.

No, what you want to do is ignore reality and try to invalidate any metric. Because that is what Kobe fans do.

You'd all be the biggest stat whores ever if they favored Kobe.

Imagine if Kobe was like 60% on game winning shots in his career. You think we'd ever hear the ****ing end of it?

[BlackVVaves]

Then you simply can't hammer Wade for 07 on that criteria.

And you don't get...you be sensible. While Kobe was at home. Wade was playing 22 playoff games. 22 to 0. That is a lot more important than some regular season games.

Sorry. Kobe last year was absurdly over-rated if you think him getting injured and missing the entire playoffs still nets him an easy victory of a better year than Wade.

Kobe played absolutely horrendous defense and shot a lot more than Wade. That was really it. If a few games is no big deal...as you say...then you can't even use Wade playing a handful less games against him.

I would give Kobe the nod if it was just regular season, but to miss an entire playoffs while the guy you are being compared to goes on to play 22 playoff games and win a title...sorry, can't ignore that.

Wade played so much better in the 13 regular season than he's given credit for here. As ususal lets just reward a player for shooting a lot more while his team crumbles...

Be sensible...yes...I agree. Lets not ignore a player missing the playoffs entirely because of injury.

I never commented on 2007, so not sure what you're referring to with that.

I'm saying, Wade's injuries OVERALL are a factor. Not his injuries in individual seasons. But, his durability, which is a considerable facet of player assessment.

Kobe played horrid defense, agreed. He shot more than Wade, agreed. He was still more productive though, and was the sole reason the Lakers were even positioned to make the post-season at the time of his injury. No Kobe, and that Lakers team implodes like we are watching with the Nets. No Wade, and the Heat still make the post-season, and still make it to the ECF at bare minimal.

While both players played, Kobe was the better player. I don't hold him being injured against him, just like I don't hold Wade being injured in 07 against him. What I DO hold against Wade is him being injury prone throughout his career. Durability matters when assessing someone's career, and that's why overall it factors into the decade. But individual years when he was injured, I don't use as a measuring stick.

We all know you have disdain for Kobe, and the way his stans fly about this place, sometimes I don't blame you at all. But you are letting that cloud your judgement I think; Wade was not a better player than Kobe last year bro.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Dude don't argue with trolls then. You're being baited.

I'm on ISH to argue with trolls. That's the point.

[chazzy]

Wade's level of play during the Heat's 27 game winning streak was sensational.
22.8/5.6/5.7 on 56.8 TS%? Almost as good as Kobe for the season :lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No, what you want to do is ignore reality and try to invalidate any metric. Because that is what Kobe fans do.

You'd all be the biggest stat whores ever if they favored Kobe.

Imagine if Kobe was like 60% on game winning shots in his career. You think we'd ever hear the ****ing end of it?

:roll:

99% of the ink online is dedicated to the stat revolution is dedicated to "proving "Kobe isn't clutch or a good defender.

Its as if no other player in NBA history have earned those descriptors without passing a dissertation before hand.

[DMAVS41]

I never commented on 2007, so not sure what you're referring to with that.

I'm saying, Wade's injuries OVERALL are a factor. Not his injuries in individual seasons. But, his durability, which is a considerable facet of player assessment.

Kobe played horrid defense, agreed. He shot more than Wade, agreed. He was still more productive though, and was the sole reason the Lakers were even positioned to make the post-season at the time of his injury. No Kobe, and that Lakers team implodes like we are watching with the Nets. No Wade, and the Heat still make the post-season, and still make it to the ECF at bare minimal.

While both players played, Kobe was the better player. I don't hold him being injured against him, just like I don't hold Wade being injured in 07 against him. What I DO hold against Wade is him being injury prone throughout his career. Durability matters when assessing someone's career, and that's why overall it factors into the decade. But individual years when he was injured, I don't use as a measuring stick.

We all know you have disdain for Kobe, and the way his stans fly about this place, sometimes I don't blame you at all. But you are letting that cloud your judgement I think; Wade was not a better player than Kobe last year bro.

You aren't listening though. You are jumping in without even knowing the context of these discussions.

And I've repeatedly agree with you that in the regular season Kobe was better. You are just wrong about how much better.

So just stop there if you like.

The problem, however, is that Wade's injuries in specific years are being held against him.

And even broadly, actually, now that Kobe is getting hurt more...that line is dwindling. So over the last 10 years...I don't think the injury argument is holding much weight. Especially when Wade missed games in 07 and 08 on teams that didn't prevent him from winning anything...especially 08 (a 15 win team)

The reason I'm making a big deal out of the 13 playoffs is precisely that in response to other people.

You can't just jump in and start your own conversation about a post that wasn't even directed at you...and then ignore the context with which it was said.

But I will say, that you are over-rating Kobe's season last year. He was a gunner. Played no defense whatsoever...and when doing that...it's easy to put up numbers. Wade was better than his stats...and Kobe was worse than his last year. And while I do think Kobe was better in the regular season...you are off on how much better.

[BlackVVaves]

No, you are just ignoring the entire ****ing playoffs.

Wade was good last year in the regular season. Clearly not as good as Kobe, but the gap is not nearly as big as you are making it out to be.

And then Kobe doesn't play the playoffs while Wade does and wins a title. And we are supposed to give Kobe the year. When Kobe fans want Kobe's 05 to be ranked higher than Wade's 07 because of a 15 game regular season difference?

What the **** is sensible about that?

Wade in 07 was great when he played...yet that season is rendered meaningless by the side you are supporting.

Do you really not see the flaw?

If the reason people are using is "injuries"...it makes absolutely no sense to give Kobe 13. If, however, one were to not cling to the "injuries" notion...then that is a different story.

But Wade is not getting enough credit for his regular season or even his playoffs (while clearly hurt)...

This isn't Game of Thrones dude :oldlol: I'm not supporting a "side." I could give a **** what other illogical cats murmur here, I speak for myself and any other rational observer. I never ONCE faulted Wade for missing games in 07, so stop bunching me in with that bag of whimpering neanderthals.

If you want to use troll and homer logic to build your argument, be my guest. I've never fallen so far that I would resort to making serious statements using the rationale that some of ISH's most infamous Kobetards/LeBron fanboys utilize in their idiotic fury, and I never will. If you want to take the NumberSix path of debate, go right ahead.

I'm done arguing this notion that Wade was a better player than Kobe last year. If you think that, it's your opinion, you're entitled to it. Just know I don't agree, and most objective posters who aren't Heat fans or known Kobe haters won't either.

And for the record, while I think Kobe was the better guard over the last decade, and over both their careers, the thread separating the two is tremendously thin.

[DMAVS41]

This isn't Game of Thrones dude :oldlol: I'm not supporting a "side." I could give a **** what other illogical cats murmur here, I speak for myself and any other rational observer. I never ONCE faulted Wade for missing games in 07, so stop bunching me in with that bag of whimpering neanderthals.

If you want to use troll and homer logic to build your argument, be my guest. I've never fallen so far that I would resort to making serious statements using the rationale that some of ISH's most infamous Kobetards/LeBron fanboys utilize in their idiotic fury, and I never will. If you want to take the NumberSix path of debate, go right ahead.

I'm done arguing this notion that Wade was a better player than Kobe last year. If you think that, it's your opinion, you're entitled to it. Just know I don't agree, and most objective posters who aren't Heat fans or known Kobe haters won't either.

And for the record, while I think Kobe was the better guard over the last decade, and over both their careers, the thread separating the two is tremendously thin.

Check the above post.

You are talking something completely differently.

[PJR]

22.8/5.6/5.7 on 56.8 TS%? Almost as good as Kobe for the season :lol

Yeah, while being an integral piece to a team that won 27 games in a row, and had the best record in the league.

You guys honestly think it's not close? Give me a ****ing break.

They had different roles. Factor in that Wade was a #2 option and took 15.9 shots a game vs Kobe 20.4 shots a game. Despite Kobe having the higher usage, Wade had a better PER, negligibly better TS%, slightly better eFG%. And while his defense wasn't all word, it wasn't the trainwreck that was Kobe's attempt at defense was last year.

You want to say Kobe was better? Fine by me, I don't care. But don't be silly and say it's not close. You mu****as stay overstating Kobe's ability and impact. It's hilarious.

[aj1987]

Why is Kobe better than Wade?
Better stats, better accomplishments, better personal accolades, etc.

Sure, Wade had a couple of seasons which were better than Kobe's best season, but overall, Kobe > Wade.

Why is this even a discussion?

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, while being an integral piece to a team that won 27 games in a row, and had the best record in the league.

You guys honestly think it's not close? Give me a ****ing break.

They had different roles. Factor in that Wade was a #2 option and took 15.9 shots a game vs Kobe 20.4 shots a game. Despite Kobe having the high usage, Wade had a better PER, negligibly better TS%, slightly better eFG%. And while his defense wasn't all word, it wasn't the trainwreck that was Kobe's attempt at defense was last year.

You want to say Kobe was better? Fine by me, I don't care. But don't be silly and say it's not close. You mu****as stay overstating Kobe's ability and impact. It's hilarious.

I'd link to Wade's far better drapm, but we don't want to hear how that means nothing, but gunning for points rather than wins should.

Kobe was better in the regular season, I think that is clear. How much better though? Not a big gap at all if you factor in everything.

But I'm still trying to figure out why we have to ignore Kobe going down and missing the entire playoffs due to injury...when the main argument against Wade has been injuries.

:wtf:

[DMAVS41]

Better stats, better accomplishments, better personal accolades, etc.

Sure, Wade had a couple of seasons which were better than Kobe's best season, but overall, Kobe > Wade.

Why is this even a discussion?

Are you talking all time career ranking...or last 10 years or so?

The two are hugely different.

I agree that Kobe should be ranked over Wade all time...and should end that way unless something crazy happens.

But from like 04 or 05 to present. I'd rather have Wade...and I don't think it's hating or trolling on any level to say so.

[aj1987]

Are you talking all time career ranking...or last 10 years or so?

The two are hugely different.

I agree that Kobe should be ranked over Wade all time...and should end that way unless something crazy happens.

But from like 04 or 05 to present. I'd rather have Wade...and I don't think it's hating or trolling on any level to say so.
My bad! I was comparing their careers. :facepalm

IMO, '03-'13 Kobe is better than Wade and I'm a HUGE Wade stan.

Wade does have a couple of seasons than are better than Kobe's best though.

[red1]

Upon further review I bump wade up from second place and he is now tied with kobe for 1st. The tie breaker to determine best shooting guard of the last 10-years will be total ring count and highest-scoring regular season game scoring game. Im just gonna check it out quick and will be back with my final verdict

[3LiftHeatCurse]

My bad! I was comparing their careers. :facepalm

IMO, '03-'13 Kobe is better than Wade and I'm a HUGE Wade stan.

Wade does have a couple of seasons than are better than Kobe's best though.

You're not a huge wade stan, you ****ing poser. This is the 2nd time you are shitting on Wade in favor of a non heat player. it is obvious you're a new post-decision 2010 "heat fan", which is why you keep saying stupid shit about wade, followed by "and this is coming from a huge wade stan!". full of shit you are.

Wade's 10 year run has been the best of any SG the past 10 years. This is true. Wade's 3 rings, compared to Kobe's 2. Wade's 06 Finals shits on anything Kobe did in his 3 finals appearances.

And Wade's 09 season is better than Kobe's 06.

[Young X]

Wade was IMO the best in:

05
09
10
11
12
14 so far

[red1]

Ok so it looks like kobe holds the edge in both categories with the greater total ring count and higher scoring regular season game. Unfortunately I've had no choice but to disqualify him for violating the no-rape clause back in 04. Sadly I also had to disqualify wade for playing sidekick to that bitch-n*gga with the fivehead. Best shooting guard goes to jerry stackhouse by default

[aj1987]

You're not a huge wade stan, you ****ing poser. This is the 2nd time you are shitting on Wade in favor of a non heat player. it is obvious you're a new post-decision 2010 "heat fan", which is why you keep saying stupid shit.

Wade's 10 year run has been the best of any SG the past 10 years. This is true. Wade's 3 rings, compared to Kobe's 2. Wade's 06 Finals shits on anything Kobe did in his 3 finals appearances.

And Wade's 09 season is better than Kobe's 06.
Lol! When have I EVER "shit" on Wade? Oh, and if you really think I'm a Lebron fan, you should seriously consider reading my previous posts, ****tard.

The guy is an all time great, but it's not unfathomable that people might want to rank Kobe over Wade. The dude did have an epic playoff run in '09 and a very good one in '10. Also, a 35+ PPG season on 56% TS.

I do agree with you that '09 Wade > '06 Kobe, but '06 Kobe > every other version of Wade.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

That 35 ppg season was on 45% shooting. Go **** yourself with that kobetard "TS%" garbage.


April 2013 join date, claims to be a "huge wade stan" but never ever correctly defends wade, constantly giving props to people ahead of Wade.

You're full of shit, bandwagon new fan. I can smell you a mile away. No legit Heat fan, who watched Wade for years before 2010 Big 3, would say the shit you say. I KNOW Wade and watched him for years before 2010. Wade's a better SG than Kobe. Point blank.

But that's another discussion, and it's harder to prove. BUT as far as Wade being the best SG the past 10 years, that's no ****ing question. Of course it's true.

[DMAVS41]

I'm still waiting to hear how injuries are such a factor...but missing the entire playoffs last year and then now being out until like February isn't a factor.

Oh how hard must it be to try and juggle the inconsistencies of being a Kobe stan.

[tpols]

That 35 ppg season was on 45% shooting. Go **** yourself with that kobetard "TS%" garbage.


April 2013 join date, claims to be a "huge wade stan" but never ever correctly defends wade, constantly giving props to people ahead of Wade.

You're full of shit, bandwagon new fan. I can smell you a mile away. No legit Heat fan, who watched Wade for years before 2010 Big 3, would say the shit you say. I KNOW Wade and watched him for years before 2010. Wade's a better SG than Kobe. Point blank.

But that's another discussion, and it's harder to prove. BUT as far as Wade being the best SG the past 10 years, that's no ****ing question. Of course it's true.
:oldlol:
Its just the internet sir, no need to get rustled.


Funny how players dont give a shit about any of this.. they just pay respects to those who made their mark. If someone made a torll thread titled 'Best SG of the last 10 years' in 2007 Kobe would rank over Jordan but what would it prove?

You're cutting out a big piece of someones career and comparing it to someone elses entire body of work.. its as skewed as it comes aka the mark of a troll thread.

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol:
Its just the internet sir, no need to get rustled.


Funny how players dont give a shit about any of this.. they just pay respects to those who made their mark. If someone made a torll thread titled 'Best SG of the last 10 years' in 2007 Kobe would rank over Jordan but what would it prove?

You're cutting out a big piece of someones career and comparing it to someone elses entire body of work.. its as skewed as it comes aka the mark of a troll thread.

For sure, but in this case it's a legit debate. The MJ vs Kobe thing obviously is Kobe.

This is actually a legit discussion and it's reasonable to take Kobe and reasonable to take Wade. That is what makes it fun.

With Wade declining like he has...and the Lebron choke in 11. Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...

[aj1987]

That 35 ppg season was on 45% shooting. Go **** yourself with that kobetard "TS%" garbage.


April 2013 join date, claims to be a "huge wade stan" but never ever correctly defends wade, constantly giving props to people ahead of Wade.

You're full of shit, bandwagon new fan. I can smell you a mile away. No legit Heat fan, who watched Wade for years before 2010 Big 3, would say the shit you say. I KNOW Wade and watched him for years before 2010. Wade's a better SG than Kobe. Point blank.

But that's another discussion, and it's harder to prove. BUT as far as Wade being the best SG the past 10 years, that's no ****ing question. Of course it's true.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

****** alert. Claims to be from Miami, join date: May 2011. :oldlol:

[knicksman]

3 rings > 2 rings homeboy.

So now its clear that lebron has 0:lol

[Brokenbeat]

Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...
Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...Then just stop already. :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Then just stop already. :facepalm

Stop what?

Discussing something I find interesting on a basketball forum in a thread I didn't start?

Okay...

[3LiftHeatCurse]

With Wade declining like he has...and the Lebron choke in 11. Wade can't catch Kobe all time anymore in terms of career ranking...

Disagree. Wade didn't choke, Wade played very well vs Mavericks. LeBron choked, as you said. Meanwhile, Kobe choked and destroyed his own team in the 2004 Finals. That's worse. After that, you can then throw in Kobe's terrible 2008 loss in the Finals vs Boston. So in regards to Wade losing, Kobe has lost more, and lost in a bigger, more shameful fashion.


As for total rings, depends on how much the Heat win. If Wade reaches 5 or even 6 rings, and has good seasons, he passes Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

Disagree. Wade didn't choke, Wade played very well vs Mavericks. LeBron choked, as you said. Meanwhile, Kobe choked and destroyed his own team in the 2004 Finals. That's worse. After that, you can then throw in Kobe's terrible 2008 loss in the Finals vs Boston. So in regards to Wade losing, Kobe has lost more, and lost in a bigger, more shameful fashion.


As for total rings, depends on how much the Heat win. If Wade reaches 5 or even 6 rings, and has good seasons, he passes Kobe.

Yea, but Wade lost out on another title and finals MVP.

He'd be sitting on 4 titles and 2 finals MVP's right now and his career ranking wouldn't be so far behind Kobe.

But now? It's going to take absurd stuff...and the problem is that there is no way Wade can get another title as the best player unless Lebron leaves and Wade resurges.

I don't see any realistic way Wade can catch Kobe at this point. It would take something like 2 or 3 more titles and 2 finals mvp's or something. Possible? Sure, but not realistic in my opinion.

This year Wade will need to play great in the playoffs and win finals mvp. He's going to have to have great longevity as well. 2011 unfortunately just sets him way back....because he could have easily wound up with 5 titles and 3 finals mvp's if he was at 4/2 right now.

[Brokenbeat]

Stop what?

Discussing something I find interesting on a basketball forum in a thread I didn't start?

Okay...


:oldlol:
Its just the internet sir, no need to get rustled.


Funny how players dont give a shit about any of this.. they just pay respects to those who made their mark. If someone made a torll thread titled 'Best SG of the last 10 years' in 2007 Kobe would rank over Jordan but what would it prove?

You're cutting out a big piece of someones career and comparing it to someone elses entire body of work.. its as skewed as it comes aka the mark of a troll thread.

Summed up for you. This has been going on for pages now. You look dumb... stop THAT.

[K Xerxes]

I wouldn't take 3LiftHeatCurse seriously, he thinks peak Wade is better than peak Olajuwon. Clown of the highest order. :lol

[3LiftHeatCurse]

I wouldn't take 3LiftHeatCurse seriously, he thinks peak Wade is better than peak Olajuwon. Clown of the highest order. :lol

Olajuwon has become grossly overrated in recent years.

[Bandito]

Olajuwon has become grossly overrated in recent years.
Wade is even more overrated along with Love, Lebron and Lin.

[Bandito]

Disagree. Wade didn't choke, Wade played very well vs Mavericks. LeBron choked, as you said. Meanwhile, Kobe choked and destroyed his own team in the 2004 Finals. That's worse. After that, you can then throw in Kobe's terrible 2008 loss in the Finals vs Boston. So in regards to Wade losing, Kobe has lost more, and lost in a bigger, more shameful fashion.


As for total rings, depends on how much the Heat win. If Wade reaches 5 or even 6 rings, and has good seasons, he passes Kobe.
He didn't choke, he lost to a better team. Sometimes that happens:facepalm

[3LiftHeatCurse]

He didn't choke, he lost to a better team. Sometimes that happens:facepalm

Kobe's 2004 Finals was a chokejob of the highest order. Worse than 2011 LeBron. Kobe straight up shot his team out of the Finals in effort to win FMVP over Shaq, even with Phil yelling at Kobe to play within the team. Look at Kobe's numbers and FG% in that series. It caused the Lakers to break up, and Phil to call Kobe uncoachable. Absolutely horrible chokejob from Kobe in 2004.

and didn't the Lakers, in 2008 vs Boston, suffer the worst loss in any NBA finals game in history? and it was on the home floor in staples too.

[jstern]

5 > 1

We're talking about the the last 10 years. And using Kobe stan logic, 3 rings > 2.

[tpols]

Kobe's 2004 Finals was a chokejob of the highest order. Worse than 2011 LeBron. Kobe straight up shot his team out of the Finals in effort to win FMVP over Shaq, even with Phil yelling at Kobe to play within the team. Look at Kobe's numbers and FG% in that series. It caused the Lakers to break up, and Phil to call Kobe uncoachable. Absolutely horrible chokejob from Kobe in 2004.

and didn't the Lakers, in 2008 vs Boston, suffer the worst loss in any NBA finals game in history? and it was on the home floor in staples too.
Except the 2008 Celtics and 2004 pistons are much much better teams than the 2011 Mavs especially defensively.. Which is important if we're comparing numbers. Mavs were an elite defensive team for the year 2011.. The Cs and pistons are elite defensively for the whole history of basketball.. Two teams with claims for defensive GOAT. It's not a fair comparison

[fpliii]

I wouldn't take 3LiftHeatCurse seriously, he thinks peak Wade is better than peak Olajuwon. Clown of the highest order. :lol

Wow, I'm a big Wade stan, but...damn.

Hakeem's one of the GOAT peaks. Probably the most underrated all-time great player.

[DMAVS41]

Except the 2008 Celtics and 2004 pistons are much much better teams than the 2011 Mavs especially defensively.. Which is important if we're comparing numbers. Mavs were an elite defensive team for the year 2011.. The Cs and pistons are elite defensively for the whole history of basketball.. Two teams with claims for defensive GOAT. It's not a fair comparison

The Mavs were definitely not an elite defensive team for even the year 2011 at all.

They had the 8th best drtg in the playoffs...and the 8th best drtg in the regular season.

Good to very good (especially in certain situations), but absolutely not elite.

And yes, the 08 Celtics and 04 Pistons were better teams...at least on paper. Much much better...not sure about that.

I know you want them to be something they weren't for some strange reason, but the 11 Mavs were a pretty good defensive team and a super elite offensive team in the playoffs...that saw their two best offensive players catch fire for pretty much every close game they played. They won off the offense...not the defense

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Lets see who was better each year

04-Kobe
05-Wade b/c of Kobes injury
06-Kobe
07-Kobe
08-Kobe
09-Tossup
10-Wade
11-Wade
12-Wade
13-Kobe

In conclusion OP is a fakkit

[DMAVS41]

Lets see who was better each year

04-Kobe
05-Wade b/c of Kobes injury
06-Kobe
07-Kobe
08-Kobe
09-Tossup
10-Wade
11-Wade
12-Wade
13-Kobe

In conclusion OP is a fakkit

You do realize you gave 5 years to Kobe and 4 years to Wade...right? LOL...

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

You do realize you gave 5 years to Kobe and 4 years to Wade...right? LOL...
Yeah but OP said Wade was UNQUESTIONABLY better which isnt true

[DMAVS41]

Yeah but OP said Wade was UNQUESTIONABLY better which isnt true

Now that I agree with.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

Wade is even more overrated along with Love, Lebron and Lin.

That's what winning multiple championships on a stacked team do for you. You should know all about it, as you're a Kobe fan.

[NumberSix]

That's what winning multiple championships on a stacked team do for you. You should know all about it, as you're a Kobe fan.
Oh snap

[coin24]

Kobe's 2004 Finals was a chokejob of the highest order. Worse than 2011 LeBron. Kobe straight up shot his team out of the Finals in effort to win FMVP over Shaq, even with Phil yelling at Kobe to play within the team. Look at Kobe's numbers and FG% in that series. It caused the Lakers to break up, and Phil to call Kobe uncoachable. Absolutely horrible chokejob from Kobe in 2004.

and didn't the Lakers, in 2008 vs Boston, suffer the worst loss in any NBA finals game in history? and it was on the home floor in staples too.



:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Nice try, but LeBrons 2011 chokejob was THE WORST showing in the finals from a "superstar" ever..

[Yao Ming's Foot]

That's what winning multiple championships on a stacked team do for you. You should know all about it, as you're a Kobe fan.

Only player with 5 rings with only 1 all star or HOF teammate per title team. :confusedshrug:

[riseagainst]

3 rings > 2 rings homeboy.

Bookmarked for future usage.

[dannywpt]

Clearly an agenda driven thread against Joe Johnson

[imnew09]

That's what winning multiple championships on a stacked team do for you. You should know all about it, as you're a Kobe fan.


Coming from a Heat fan with 4 HOF on the same team. 3 super stars on their PEAK :lol