Kobe Bryant vs. Tim Duncan

[Lebron23]

Who rank higher in the NBA All time lists??

Who was the better player during their PEAK/Prime?

Who's the more consistent player in the regular season, playoffs, and in the finals??

http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/274855-2/Kobe+Bryant+has+a+laugh+with+Tim+Duncan.JPG

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0906/si.cover.history.may31/images/kobe-bryant-tim-duncan.jpg

[fpliii]

I don't do all-time lists. In general, it's too hard to compare bigs to non-bigs.

OP, who are your top ten bigs? What about your top 10 points+wings?

[longhornfan1234]

Kobe slightly.

Duncan's peak is better than Kobe's. Kobe's consistency pushes him a tad.

[Lebron23]

I don't do all-time lists. In general, it's too hard to compare bigs to non-bigs.

OP, who are your top ten bigs? What about your top 10 points+wings?


Top 10 bigs.

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Moses Malone
8. Bob Pettit
9. Karl Malone
10. Charles Barkley ( He's only 6'5", but he's the 2nd GOAT PF).

[longhornfan1234]

I don't do all-time lists. In general, it's too hard to compare bigs to non-bigs.

OP, who are your top ten bigs? What about your top 10 points+wings?

Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Moses
Charles
Robinson
KG

That order.


MJ
Magic
Kobe
West
Oscar
Isiah
Wade
Stockton
Drexler
Cousy


That order.

[Jameerthefear]

Top 10 bigs.

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Tim Duncan
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Moses Malone
7. Karl Malone
8. Charles Barkley ( He's only 6'5", but he's the 2nd GOAT PF).
9. Dirk Nowitzki
10. Kevin Garnett
...shaq?

[secund2nun]

Duncan by miles.

[Lebron23]

...shaq?


I forgot about the big fellow. I put him above Wilt, and Duncan. Just look at his finals stats, and playoffs stats during his prime. Shaq could have been a 3x NBA MVP ( finished 2nd in the MVP voting in 1995, and 2005),

[Odinn]

I wish you'll get banned OP. You are no different from a troll any more.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kobe+bryant+vs.+tim+duncan+insidehoops

[Lebron23]

I wish you'll get banned OP. You are no different from a troll any more.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kobe+bryant+vs.+tim+duncan+insidehoops


STFU

[Odinn]

STFU
Great attitude.:oldlol:

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Kobe

[Element]

Laker fan here

Very slight edge Timmy for career
Clearly Timmy for peak
Kobe for Prime, factoring in longevity. 06-09 Kobe is arguably eqaul to 01-04 Duncan all things considered, too.

Consistency? Well, Timmy wasn't exactly a stunner in the 05 Finals. It's almost never brought up when discussing him because Manu, Horry and Rasheed Wallace saved his ass. Otherwise, he's a model of consistency. Kobe, though, has been a Top 5 player for over a decade now, while Duncan hasn't. Dude has been out of any Top 5 lists since the 2007-2008 season and fell off significantly before losing weight and fixing his dreaded inconsistency at the stripe in 2012. Even had his best shot blocking season out of nowhere last year.

That's my take. I'm neutral about San Antonio as a team (why would I dislike them considering how we handed their asses to them en route to Finals appearences?) but I respect and like Pops and crew.

[Bandito]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Lebron23 again.:facepalm

[Lebron23]

Kobe is more consistent than Duncan. He beats him in that category. This season is the only time Kobe averages less than 15 ppg since the 1998-99 NBA Season due to injury.

[Uncle Drew]

Kobe is more consistent than Duncan. He beats him in that category. This season is the only time Kobe averages less than 15 ppg since the 1998-99 NBA Season due to injury.

http://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads7/52c0ed95cf9f2/52c0ed95c59ca-kobe-hilariously-confused-reaction-gif.gif

Tim Duncan is the model of consistency.

[NumberSix]

There isn't a legit argument to have Kobe ahread of Duncan.

That being said. Duncan isn't ahead by a mile like some say. Just by enough that there is really no need to discuss it.

[joeyjoejoe]

Kobes got longevity on Tim but Tim had the superior peak and was a better playoffs/finals performer so Duncan is higher imo

[DMAVS41]

Kobes got longevity on Tim but Tim had the superior peak and was a better playoffs/finals performer so Duncan is higher imo

That longevity edge that Kobe had is nonexistent really at this point...

It's not a huge gap all time between them, but Kobe is clearly behind...and last year and this year aren't helping

[NumberSix]

Kobes got longevity on Tim but Tim had the superior peak and was a better playoffs/finals performer so Duncan is higher imo
Kobe has been in the NBA one season longer than Duncan. ONE!

You really gonna act like Kobe's 1 extra season as a crappy bench player gives him some kind of longevity edge? Timmy is older and seems to be holding up better.

[Jameerthefear]

Kobe has been in the NBA one season longer than Duncan. ONE!

You really gonna act like Kobe's 1 extra season as a crappy bench player gives him some kind of longevity edge? Timmy is older and seems to be holding up better.
...how? Kobe was still considered a top 5 player by some before his injury. Timmy is arguably not even top 5 in his position...

[alec613]

Kobe higher all-time ; Duncan the better player

[NumberSix]

...how? Kobe was still considered a top 5 player by some before his injury. Timmy is arguably not even top 5 in his position...
Duncan was a legit DPOY candidate last season and was 28 seconds away from a FMVP.

Kobe was wildly regarded as one of the worst defensive liabilities in the NBA last season. Couldn't play nice with his team mates which ran Dwight out of town and made Nash irrelevant because god forbid somebody touch the ball more than KoMe.

And.... Nobody legitimately thought Kobe was a top 5 player last season. Stop it.

[alec613]

And.... Nobody legitimately thought Kobe was a top 5 player last season. Stop it.

Well ESPN did put Kobe at top 4 in the middle of the season last season.

Yeah, ESPN is shit

[DMAVS41]

...how? Kobe was still considered a top 5 player by some before his injury. Timmy is arguably not even top 5 in his position...

On the whole, Duncan had a better year than Kobe last year. And is better this year as well.

Not to mention if you took the best 12 seasons of each player...Duncan comes out ahead as well.

The longevity thing really never played much to begin with as Kobe's first 2 years are essentially meaningless...and it took him until year 5 to become elite.

The problem with Duncan seems to be that people don't understand that his true impact comes from his defense/rebounding....way more than his scoring. Outside of 11...I just don't think Duncan has dipped all that much at all in his later years. He's still an elite defender for the most part. Still great on the glass as well.

I kind of got caught up in Kobe's regular season last year as well, but the more I thought about it...see no reason how Kobe was more valuable than Duncan...and then of course Duncan played great in the playoffs and was 1 made ft away from the title.

Even Kobe fans have acknowledged last year favors Duncan.

[Magic 32]

All things considered its a wash.

But Kobe has a 4-2 edge in playoffs series (the most important way to compare two neck-and-neck players IMO).

Kobe's play against the best team of the century is one of the backbones of his legacy. He did better at 21 against the Spurs than Lebron did at his peak.

2001 Western Conference Finals versus Spurs: 4 gms, 42.0 mpg, 33.3 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 7.0 apg, 1.5 spg, .514 fg%. Lakers win 4-0.

2008 Western Conference Finals versus Spurs: 5 gms, 40.4 mpg, 29.2 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.6 spg, .533 fg%. Lakers win 4-1.

Kobe wins.

[Jameerthefear]

On the whole, Duncan had a better year than Kobe last year. And is better this year as well.

Not to mention if you took the best 12 seasons of each player...Duncan comes out ahead as well.

The longevity thing really never played much to begin with as Kobe's first 2 years are essentially meaningless...and it took him until year 5 to become elite.

The problem with Duncan seems to be that people don't understand that his true impact comes from his defense/rebounding....way more than his scoring. Outside of 11...I just don't think Duncan has dipped all that much at all in his later years. He's still an elite defender for the most part. Still great on the glass as well.

I kind of got caught up in Kobe's regular season last year as well, but the more I thought about it...see no reason how Kobe was more valuable than Duncan...and then of course Duncan played great in the playoffs and was 1 made ft away from the title.

Even Kobe fans have acknowledged last year favors Duncan.
I was mostly discussing regular season. Overall Duncan definitely had the better year, but I'm pretty no one really thought that until the finals.

[DMAVS41]

All things considered its a wash.

But Kobe has a 4-2 edge in playoffs series (the most important way to compare two neck-and-neck players IMO).

Kobe's play against the best team of the century is one of the backbones of his legacy. He did better at 21 against the Spurs than Lebron did at his peak.

2001 Western Conference Finals versus Spurs: 4 gms, 42.0 mpg, 33.3 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 7.0 apg, 1.5 spg, .514 fg%. Lakers win 4-0.

2008 Western Conference Finals versus Spurs: 5 gms, 40.4 mpg, 29.2 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.6 spg, .533 fg%. Lakers win 4-1.

Kobe wins.

I think head to head...especially players that play a different position...is one of the worst things to look at honestly.

[Magic 32]

I think head to head...especially players that play a different position...is one of the worst things to look at honestly.

maybe if they played once or twice.

But 6 times?

No.

[DMAVS41]

I was mostly discussing regular season. Overall Duncan definitely had the better year, but I'm pretty no one really thought that until the finals.

I think more people than you think did. I was caught up in Kobe as well and really didn't pay a lot of attention to Duncan. But he was a 18/10/3 player that might have been the best defensive player in the league.

That is just more valuable than what Kobe did in the regular season while missing the playoffs entirely. Doesn't mean Kobe was bad or something...just that what Duncan did last year was pretty special. And then he carried it into the playoffs and played great in the finals.

Like I said...he's a manu/leonard ft away from his 5th title and 4th finals mvp...while playing great in the finals. That is legend stuff...even in the loss. A 30/17 game 6...followed up with a 24/12 game 7.

Not enough is made about how the Spurs let down Duncan those last 2 games. Parker and Green and Manu were all a joke...Green shoots 2 of 16 in the final 2 games? Games in which he just makes 1 more shot and it changes everything...sad on so many levels.

[DMAVS41]

maybe if they played once or twice.

But 6 times?

No.


Terrible argument in my opinion. All I can say.

5 of those times Kobe had Shaq...who happens to be the player Duncan had to deal with...not Kobe.

Kobe is 18-12 against Duncan in the playoffs.

Duncan is 27-20 against Kobe in the regular season.

Just not enough...

[Magic 32]

Terrible argument in my opinion. All I can say.

5 of those times Kobe had Shaq...who happens to be the player Duncan had to deal with...not Kobe.

You must have missed the way Shaq played in 2002.

And Horace Grant was the guy who stopped Duncan in 2001, not Shaq.

Oh and Kobe outplayed Shaq in the 2001 series, especially on the road (and Shaq played pretty good).

[tpols]

I think head to head...especially players that play a different position...is one of the worst things to look at honestly.
It just goes to show that if you were to pick Duncan for your team, and I were to pick Kobe, and we both got great supporting casts, it would at the very least be a close race to see who wins the most.


Duncan is coming off a prime 07 season, has manu and parker dead in their primes.. Kobe has a frontcourt comparable to Duncans backcourt.. but Kobe destroys his competition(Duncans backcourt) more than Duncan destroys his(Kobe's frontcourt).

And of course Kobe has done this more than one time in a Duncan series.. hes been the best player on the court and taken over games in a way that Duncan couldnt overcome. Duncan could give you great rebounding and defense but when Kobe's killing you with bunches of midrange shots in a row to build a lead.. there are no rebounds and his defense doesnt matter anymore. And series can be quick.. there are knockout punches and I would argue Kobe is George Foreman or Joe Frazier to Duncans Ali.. theyve got more knockout power and could potentially win at any time. Though in real life Kobe won more than those guys did.

The more I think about it, Kobe really is the anti-Duncan.. his game is just built to beat a Duncan led team because of his midrange/general shooting ability.. where bigs cant contribute much to stop it.

[DMAVS41]

You must have missed the way Shaq played in 2002.

And Horace Grant was the guy who stopped Duncan in 2001, not Shaq.

Oh and Kobe outplayed Shaq in the 2001 series (and Shaq played pretty good).


So what? Duncan outplayed both Kobe and Shaq in 03...LOL

My point is that it's not enough to put Kobe ahead of Duncan all time...especially when Kobe actually has a losing record against Duncan all time. He's 38-39.

[Magic 32]

especially when Kobe actually has a losing record against Duncan all time. He's 38-39.

lol

Now you just trying too hard.

[DMAVS41]

It just goes to show that if you were to pick Duncan for your team, and I were to pick Kobe, and we both got great supporting casts, it would at the very least be a close race to see who wins the most.


Duncan is coming off a prime 07 season, has manu and parker dead in their primes.. Kobe has a frontcourt comparable to Duncans backcourt.. but Kobe destroys his competition(Duncans backcourt) more than Duncan destroys his(Kobe's frontcourt).

And of course Kobe has done this more than one time in a Duncan series.. hes been the best player on the court and taken over games in a way that Duncan couldnt overcome. Duncan could give you great rebounding and defense but when Kobe's killing you with bunches of midrange shots in a row to build a lead.. there are no rebounds and his defense doesnt matter anymore. And series can be quick.. there are knockout punches and I would argue Kobe is George Foreman or Joe Frazier to Duncans Ali.. theyve got more knockout power and could potentially win at any time. Though in real life Kobe won more than those guys did.

The more I think about it, Kobe really is the anti-Duncan.. his game is just built to beat a Duncan led team because of his midrange/general shooting ability.. where bigs cant contribute much to stop it.

You really going to call 08 Duncan's prime?

And you really going to ignore that Manu was hurt that series?


Look...a 4-2 series record in the playoffs...18-12 in terms of games...with Shaq for 25 of those games is not a good indication of anything.

Kobe has a losing record against Duncan overall as well.

Of course Duncan vs Kobe with equal supporting casts is going to be a good series. You act like it wouldn't. Dirk with an equal supporting cast is going to be a good series. Doesn't mean Dirk is on Duncan's level...

[DMAVS41]

lol

Now you just trying too hard.

Yea...because we should factor in Kobe getting Shaq for 25 of the 30 playoff games. With the other 5 coming with Kobe at his peak...Duncan out of his prime...and Manu hobbled (they guy that plays Kobe's position)

Yep...18-12...LOL

Duncan averaged 25/14/4 in the playoffs for his career against Kobe. All while providing elite defense.

Yea...give me that over Kobe's 28/6/5

Pretty sure if we give Duncan a top 8 player of all time for 25 of those games that record would look awfully different.

[tpols]

So what? Duncan outplayed both Kobe and Shaq in 03...LOL

My point is that it's not enough to put Kobe ahead of Duncan all time...especially when Kobe actually has a losing record against Duncan all time. He's 38-39.
Both in their primes, in the playoffs, they have played 26 games against each other. Kobe's team is 18-8 overall and 4-1 in the games w/o Shaq.

If you want to count 99 too its still 18-12.. which is a sizeable difference. Once Kobe entered his prime spurs were toast though. Lost 4 of the next 5 series.


Kobes destroyed Duncan head to head quite a few times in the playoffs..

[tpols]

You really going to call 08 Duncan's prime?

And you really going to ignore that Manu was hurt that series?


Look...a 4-2 series record in the playoffs...18-12 in terms of games...with Shaq for 25 of those games is not a good indication of anything.

Kobe has a losing record against Duncan overall as well.

Of course Duncan vs Kobe with equal supporting casts is going to be a good series. You act like it wouldn't. Dirk with an equal supporting cast is going to be a good series. Doesn't mean Dirk is on Duncan's level...
Whats the point in levels then? :oldlol:

If I give a player A and I get player B, and theres pretty much an even chance either of us win holding supporting cast constant and even chances at beating other teams holding all else constant how can you say one player is better than the other.


If Dirk played in Spurs well managed system surrounded first by David Robinson(basically super charged tyson chandler), and a bunch of shooters and defensive players for half his career than prime manu and parker for the other half, hed have just as many titles as Duncan.. easily. Honestly I dont think Duncan is all that much better than Dirk.

[Magic 32]

Kobe owned the Alamodome.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=game&year_min=1999&year_max=2002&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=LAL&opp_id=SAS&is_playoffs=Y&round_is_eds=Y&round_is_edf=Y&round_is_ec1=Y&round_is_ecs=Y&round_is_ecf=Y&round_is_wds=Y&round_is_wdf=Y&round_is_wc1=Y&round_is_wcs=Y&round_is_wcf=Y&round_is_fin=Y&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=21&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts

[DMAVS41]

Both in their primes, in the playoffs, they have played 26 games against each other. Kobe's team is 18-8 overall and 4-1 in the games w/o Shaq.

If you want to count 99 too its still 18-12.. which is a sizeable difference. Once Kobe entered his prime spurs were toast though. Lost 4 of the next 5 series.


Kobes destroyed Duncan head to head quite a few times in the playoffs..

Destoys him? Duncan is averaging 25/14/4 against Kobe's teams in the playoffs.

It's absurd to boil it down to so few games....especially with Kobe getting the benefit of Shaq for 25 of the 30 playoff games.

Kobe has a losing record overall against Duncan...sorry. Honestly...I can't believe the record isn't better. Shaq for 25 games and then a peak Kobe against a past prime Duncan with an injured Manu for the next 5....LOL

[DMAVS41]

Whats the point in levels then? :oldlol:

If I give a player A and I get player B, and theres pretty much an even chance either of us win holding supporting cast constant and even chances at beating other teams holding all else constant how can you say one player is better than the other.


If Dirk played in Spurs well managed system surrounded first by David Robinson(basically super charged tyson chandler), and a bunch of shooters and defensive players for half his career than prime manu and parker for the other half, hed have just as many titles as Duncan.. easily. Honestly I dont think Duncan is all that much better than Dirk.

And you'd be wrong. And this coming from a huge Dirk fan. There is a clear difference in them.

This is why putting such a huge emphasis on titles is flawed. But what do you expect? Kobe and Dirk are two of the best players ever. You think they can't compete with Duncan? Why?

And please stop pretending like Duncan had remotely equal help to Kobe during when these games were played. When you have prime/peak Shaq...not much else matters.

Stop and think for a second. Imagine if Duncan had a top 8 player of all time in his prime for 25 of the games. You really think Duncan isn't getting at least a 18-12 record.

Jesus...imagine Duncan and Bird...against a Kobe team with similar talent to those Spurs teams. Duncan and Bird would probably win like 22 of the 25 games. It would be a joke.

[Magic 32]

Stop and think for a second. Imagine if Duncan had a top 8 player of all time in his prime for 25 of the games. You really think Duncan isn't getting at least a 18-12 record.


Imagine if Kobe had played more than one series against Timmy in his peak..

BLOODBATH!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv_wKwanldc

4-2 with home court in only two of the 2 series.

[DMAVS41]

Imagine if Kobe had played more than one series against Timmy in his prime..

BLOODBATH!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv_wKwanldc

4-2 with home court in only two of the 2 series.

Imagine if Duncan had Larry Bird for 25 of the 30 games and Kobe was all alone with no other superstar...

BLOODBATH

It would be insulting to Duncan and Bird to think they'd go even close to 14-11. At worst they go 20-5.

So lets get this straight...Kobe is better than Duncan because Kobe went 14-11 against Duncan in the playoffs with prime/peak Shaq on his team. While Duncan didn't even have an all nba player.

And we have to ignore that Kobe has a losing record overall to Duncan counting the regular season and playoffs.

Hmmm....

[Magic 32]

Imagine if Duncan had Larry Bird for 25 of the 30 games and Kobe was all alone with no other superstar...

BLOODBATH

It would be insulting to Duncan and Bird to think they'd go even close to 14-11. At worst they go 20-5.

If this is as good as it gets....i'm out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkvpnmAk2xU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8HgzXLQCTM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPWvJ2wr44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Wb9fSzefk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICpiCZxB_0Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QWdsVQN_BE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj_CuS2KCz4

[tpols]

Jesus...imagine Duncan and Bird...against a Kobe team with similar talent to those Spurs teams. Duncan and Bird would probably win like 22 of the 25 games. It would be a joke.
If Kobe was on the best coached team and had a frontcourt grow with him like Duncan had a backcourt grow with him hed win just as much. Duncan had manu parker and the best gameplanning and well executed system in the league. If Kobe had a comparable combo like Odom/Pau for 10+ years.. wed see those teams win a ton.


The Lakers had almost just as much success with a Pau/Odom + Kobe combo as they did with a Kobe+Shaq combo.. in fact, the combo with Pau/Odom faced less resistance in winning than did the one with Shaq where they shouldve and couldve been eliminated in the Portland and Kings series.


So if Kobe was on a team like the one hes already championship proven with, and faced a two headed monster like Bird/Duncan, hed probably fare just like Duncan fared against Kobe/Shaq... lose every year while Bird/Duncan stack chips until they get tired and burnt out from so many long playoff runs and then a kobe led team would beat them once and go on to face a relatively weaker finals opponent to win it all.. then lose some more until Bird/Duncan got old/injured/disband and then have another 6+ years to take over the league once theyre gone.

[DMAVS41]

If this is as good as it gets....i'm out.

Of course you are. You want to pretend like Shaq doesn't exist.

[DMAVS41]

If Kobe was on the best coached team and had a frontcourt grow with him like Duncan had a backcourt grow with him hed win just as much. Duncan had manu parker and the best gameplanning and well executed system in the league. If Kobe had a comparable combo like Odom/Pau for 10+ years.. wed see those teams win a ton.


The Lakers had almost just as much success with a Pau/Odom + Kobe combo as they did with a Kobe+Shaq combo.. in fact, the combo with Pau/Odom faced less resistance in winning than did the one with Shaq where they shouldve and couldve been eliminated in the Portland and Kings series.


So if Kobe was on a team like the one hes already championship proven with, and faced a two headed monster like Bird/Duncan, hed probably fare just like Duncan fared against Kobe/Shaq... lose every year while Bird/Duncan stack chips until they get tired and burnt out from so many long playoff runs and then a kobe led team would beat them once and go on to face a relatively weaker finals opponent to win it all.. then lose some more until Bird/Duncan got old/injured/disband and then have another 6+ years to take over the league once theyre gone.


Again.

Nobody is denying that Kobe or any other elite player is going to win titles playing on quality teams.

We differ here though. Switch out Kobe/Shaq for Duncan/Bird for those 8 years. And give Kobe the kind of teams Duncan had...

I think Kobe wins 2 titles. He sure as hell isn't ever winning a title with a team like the 03 Spurs. And I doubt he wins in 05 either. Definitely wins in 07. Do you realize Duncan won 2 titles before really having Parker/Manu? 03 Parker/Manu were not special yet.

Just don't think there are many other legit years Kobe for him if he had to watch Bird/Duncan play on the same team for 8 years of his prime without a all nba player on his team.

I think you are seriously discounting what Duncan did.

Like...how many years of Kobe's career could he have been the best player on championship team? Like 9 or 10 years? 01, 02, 03 (debatable), 04 (debatable), 06, 07, 08, 09, 10...

That is 9 years...and really it is 7 because we watched Kobe in 03 and 04 lose with plenty of help. And keep in mind that if you make it the same as Duncan...Kobe would have to spend a good portion of those years against the Duncan/Bird tandem. As Duncan spent at least 5 years of his prime/peak during that time. 6 if you count 99...although he did sweep Kobe that year.

I really don't want to hate on Kobe, but the truth is...how is he even winning in 01 or 02 as the best player? That would mean he'd have to go through Shaq and not have him on his team.

I don't know...even prime Kobe on a team like the 99 Spurs. Am I confident they win it? Hell no. He'd have to go through Shaq with an all-star type sg like Kobe was. I mean...don't you think you are selling Duncan a little short on some of this stuff?

[Dbrog]

I don't see an argument for Kobe. Idk why people are even posting Kobe vs Spurs numbers. It's not like he was facing Duncan. Hell, even then, HTH matchups don't matter in terms of alltime ratings. D-Will would always light up CP3. Nobody in their right mind would rate him as better. Kobe has less rings as the leader and has never had the impact that Duncan had. Still like others have said, Kobe's resume is quite impressive and can't really be left out of the top10 these days. Truly a legend of the game...just not quite as great as Duncan.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Give me duncan, he is easier to build around, is a defensive anchor and doesnt have an ego so large that he becomes a bad teammate.
Plus he is a straight up better basketball player.
Also, all in all, his finals performances are better than kobe's.

[tpols]

I think Kobe wins 2 titles. He sure as hell isn't ever winning a title with a team like the 03 Spurs. And I doubt he wins in 05 either. Definitely wins in 07.

I think you are seriously discounting what Duncan did.

Like...how many years of Kobe's career could he have been the best player on championship team? Like 9 or 10 years? 01, 02, 03 (debatable), 04 (debatable), 06, 07, 08, 09, 10...

To the first bold, where's 06? 08? 09? 10? shit even 11 and 12? If Kobe had Pau/Odom lasting all those years like Duncan had Parker/Manu/etc., his team has a great chance at winning many titles. Kobe with Pau in 06 and 07 gets past the suns and is for sure favored against the Mavs and/or Spurs.. would wreck Lebron's cavs and have a good shot at beating the Heat with Shaq slumping and Lakers frontcourt flexing. Plus Kobe would cancel out Wade better than Jason Terry.


To the second point, the funny thing is, Duncan would arguably not be the best player on his team, if he were to play with Bird. Bird is inarguably the better scorer/shooter/offensive player and would likely get more of the FMVP trophies because of that and be seen as the man.

If Duncan were to play with Shaq he would inarguably win zero FMVP trophies because shaq would dominate on offense. Youre making a silly argument here.. Nobody outside of a peak MJ, Wilt, or Kareem would be considered the best player on a team with Shaq on it.

[DMAVS41]

To the first bold, where's 06? 08? 09? 10? shit even 11 and 12? If Kobe had Pau/Odom lasting all those years like Duncan had Parker/Manu/etc., his team has a great chance at winning many titles. Kobe with Pau in 06 and 07 gets past the suns and is for sure favored against the Mavs and/or Spurs.. would wreck Lebron's cavs and have a good shot at beating the Heat with Shaq slumping and Lakers frontcourt flexing. Plus Kobe would cancel out Wade better than Jason Terry.


To the second point, the funny thing is, Duncan would arguably not be the best player on his team, if he were to play with Bird. Bird is inarguably the better scorer/shooter/offensive player and would likely get more of the FMVP trophies because of that and be seen as the man.

If Duncan were to play with Shaq he would inarguably win zero FMVP trophies because shaq would dominate on offense. Youre making a silly argument here.. Nobody outside of a peak MJ, Wilt, or Kareem would be considered the best player on a team with Shaq on it.


I'll go in reverse order. That is why I picked Bird! A player that might be better than Duncan. With Kobe...Shaq was for sure better...which actually makes my point for me. Thanks...

To the other stuff. Kobe doesn't have that many years...you have to understand that Duncan's prime was basically 98 through 07.

So much of Duncan's best years were during the Kobe/Shaq time...which turns into the Duncan/Bird time in our hypothetical. So you don't get all those years.

Kobe has at most 9 years in which he could be the best player on a title winning team. So plug him in those years Duncan was fighting for titles.

So just assume you have prime Kobe;

99? Doubtful (so just to explain..this would be prime Kobe on a team like the 99 Spurs playing the competition Duncan had to face...then just continue that down the line)

00-02? Nope Duncan/Bird take them

03? No version of Kobe is winning with a team like the 03 Spurs
04? Don't see how Kobe beats the 04 Pistons
05? Same thing as above although I guess it's possible
06? Good shot...although Duncan was a beast in the playoffs and still lost
07? Yep
08? Nope...we saw Kobe at his near best lose to the Celtics

That's about it...you've wasted all of Kobe's years up. Like I said above...Kobe isn't good enough his first 4 years, wasn't good enough in 05, and hasn't been good enough since 10...certainly not in 11 or 13. I'll let you add another year for 12. So that gives you the 10 years above.

And that is assuming the likes of Bird/Duncan only win 3 titles...which is laughable to me.

Have you really not noticed what Duncan went through?

He wins in 99. Then two top 11 players ever...with an arguable GOAT peak in Shaq play the next 5 years together. Duncan doesn't have near the kind of team they do. He somehow beats them in 03...wins the title. Loses to them in 04. Wins the title in 05. Loses to another all time great playing out of his mind the last few games in 06. Wins the title in 07.

Seriously. If Shaq/Kobe aren't together those 5 years. Duncan could easily have 6 titles right now.

You don't get to just place Kobe with championship help for 10 years without at least 4 of them or more having to face off against a Shaq/Kobe/Phil type threat.

That is what you are missing. Half of Duncan's prime and his peak was spent fighting Kobe/Shaq.

That is why I asked you how many years Kobe could have been the best player on a title team. Like...was 03 Kobe capable of that? I gave you that year, but I honestly don't think he was.

You say Kobe would be favored in 06 with the kind of help Duncan had. But Duncan averaged 32/12/4 on 57% fg against the Mavs in 06 with home court and still lost. Yet I'm supposed to assume that Kobe just wins it all in 06? And he'd have to beat Wade/Shaq if he makes the finals. Again I think you diminish what Duncan has done.

[tpols]

...

To the other stuff. Kobe doesn't have that many years...you have to understand that Duncan's prime was basically 98 through 07.

And this is where the problem is.. Kobe's prime didnt start until two years later, but it lasted a bit longer. Kobe would get 01-10... and if by some odd chance he doesnt win like he proven he could in 09 and 10, he would be gunning harder in 2011 2012 etc.

It's like MJ quitting after three in a row, Shaq coming into camp fat and unmotivated after his threepeat.. Pau/Kobe playing uninspired and like shit in 2011 after their two peat, almost getting beat singlehandedly by Chris Paul then getting wrecked by a hungry Dallas.



Teams that constantly win get tired of winning and eventually lose.. and teams that constantly lose while being contenders get hungry and eventually win.

Thats why I dont look in awe at Duncans 03 title.. he beat a team that didnt care anymore, a team that lost its best player to injury, and a team that had a comparably weaker supporting cast around him in the Nets/Kidd.

[longtime lurker]

Who rank higher in the NBA All time lists??

Who was the better player during their PEAK/Prime?

Who's the more consistent player in the regular season, playoffs, and in the finals??

http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/274855-2/Kobe+Bryant+has+a+laugh+with+Tim+Duncan.JPG

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0906/si.cover.history.may31/images/kobe-bryant-tim-duncan.jpg

Both miles better than Lebron

[DMAVS41]

And this is where the problem is.. Kobe's prime didnt start until two years later, but it lasted a bit longer. Kobe would get 01-10... and if by some odd chance he doesnt win like he proven he could in 09 and 10, he would be gunning harder in 2011 2012 etc.

It's like MJ quitting after three in a row, Shaq coming into camp fat and unmotivated after his threepeat.. Pau/Kobe playing uninspired and like shit in 2011 after their two peat, almost getting beat singlehandedly by Chris Paul then getting wrecked by a hungry Dallas.



Teams that constantly win get tired of winning and eventually lose.. and teams that constantly lose while being contenders get hungry and eventually win.

Thats why I dont look in awe at Duncans 03 title.. he beat a team that didnt care anymore, a team that lost its best player to injury, and a team that had a comparably weaker supporting cast around him in the Nets/Kidd.


It wasn't really longer. Duncan was clearly capable of being the best player on a title team from 98 like 08 honestly.

Kobe has how many years? 01,02, 03,04, 06,07,08,09,10...Lets just give them both 10 so it's even.

This is my point. Kobe would have to spend some of those years fighting against a Shaq/Kobe type duo...coached by Phil. It's not fair to have Kobe in this hypotheticla not have to face what Duncan did. If Shaq/Kobe don't exist...Duncan might have 6 titles.

So put Kobe through what Duncan had to face....or just give Kobe a championship team each year...which is misleading because Duncan didn't have that each of his 10 years he was a legit clear cut first option.

Even using Kobe's prime and giving him help each year as the best player;

01? Is he beating Shaq? No. Might not beat Iverson.
02? Same thing or Kings.
03? Is he beating Duncan at his peak? Highly doubtful
04? Just don't see him beating a Pistons team that killed him
06? Definitely a chance, but again...the 06 Mavs were damn good and Duncan lost with a 32/12/4 57% fg series
07? Definitely wins
08? No...we saw it happen
09? Yep
10? Yep

So even if we give Kobe championship help each year of his prime...which is not even remotely realistic...he wins 3 or 4 times.

And no, sorry, Kobe was not good enough in 11 to win a title. We can't ignore that. And he's not beating Lebron in 12. Obviously 13 isn't debatable.

So there you have it. And again...that is with Duncan level help or better every year of his 10 best years in his career.

Still not impressed with Duncan winning 4 while also having to deal with Shaq/Kobe for like 5 years?

[Riley Martin]

I don't do all-time lists. In general, it's too hard to compare bigs to non-bigs.

OP, who are your top ten bigs? What about your top 10 points+wings?

Top 10 Bigs


Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Moses
Barkley
Karl
Ewing


Top 10 Non-Bigs


Jordan
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Oscar
Julius
West
LeBron
Stockon
Pippen

[tpols]

It wasn't really longer. Duncan was clearly capable of being the best player on a title team from 98 like 08 honestly.

Kobe has how many years? 01,02, 03,04, 06,07,08,09,10...Lets just give them both 10 so it's even.

This is my point. Kobe would have to spend some of those years fighting against a Shaq/Kobe type duo...coached by Phil. It's not fair to have Kobe in this hypotheticla not have to face what Duncan did. If Shaq/Kobe don't exist...Duncan might have 6 titles.

So put Kobe through what Duncan had to face....or just give Kobe a championship team each year...which is misleading because Duncan didn't have that each of his 10 years he was a legit clear cut first option.

Even using Kobe's prime and giving him help each year as the best player;

01? Is he beating Shaq? No. Might not beat Iverson.
02? Same thing or Kings.
03? Is he beating Duncan at his peak? Highly doubtful
04? Just don't see him beating a Pistons team that killed him
06? Definitely a chance, but again...the 06 Mavs were damn good and Duncan lost with a 32/12/4 57% fg series
07? Definitely wins
08? No...we saw it happen
09? Yep
10? Yep

So even if we give Kobe championship help each year of his prime...which is not even remotely realistic...he wins 3 or 4 times.

And no, sorry, Kobe was not good enough in 11 to win a title. We can't ignore that. And he's not beating Lebron in 12. Obviously 13 isn't debatable.

So there you have it. And again...that is with Duncan level help or better every year of his 10 best years in his career.

Still not impressed with Duncan winning 4 while also having to deal with Shaq/Kobe for like 5 years?
A lot of the things youre saying here are widely circumstantial.

Like 01 is he beating Shaq.. depends who Shaqs playing with. According to advanced stats Kobe was on par with Shaq in the playoffs those years.. he was a two way beast.

03 hes already destroyed Duncan while he was at his peak with his midrange game. Check 01 when he dominated and clearly outplayed a peak level Duncan. Duncan cant affect Kobe Bryant. Hes a rim protector and rebounder first and foremost.. those areas arent going to help slow down Kobe. Rather have a KG like roamer who can close out. Its just different skills like a game of chess.

04 the only reason they killed him is he was coming to the end of a giant fued with Shaq.. Kobe never fueded with Pau and Odom so why would we assume an equal lack of chemistry like what happened with Shaq? It just wouldnt play out the same in two totally different situations

06 LA would be heavily favored against the Mavs and Kobe was considered better than Duncan that year. Kobe would also have a better supporting cast than Dirk. Theyd be heavy favorites.

08 through 10 hes winning at least two, and if one doesnt go his way, could get up for 2011 or 2012.


Were gonna have to agree to disagree on this whole literal interpretation thing. If a player like Kobe lost early say in 2010.. he would come out much harder in 2011. So would Pau. The fire was lost once they proved they could win multiple times in a row. If they had been losing, the level of hunger would be different in subsequent years.

[secund2nun]

The fact that this is even a debate shows how much the media has corrupted the fan's perception of reality.

Please tell me how a Tmac style first round loser like Kobe is anywhere close to Duncan? Then to top it off Duncan's playoff and finals performances are far superior to Kobe's performances.

[secund2nun]

Bigs and non bigs should not be separated. Bigs are easily better except for only a couple of non big players (which Kobe is not one of them).

[avonbarksdale]

5>4

[Riley Martin]

Please tell me how a Tmac style first round loser like Kobe is anywhere close to Duncan?

7 finals appearances with 5 rings. Definitely similar to McGrady. :lol

[Artillery]

7 finals appearances with 5 rings. Definitely similar to McGrady. :lol

How many top ten HOFers has McGrady played with?

[DMAVS41]

A lot of the things youre saying here are widely circumstantial.

Like 01 is he beating Shaq.. depends who Shaqs playing with. According to advanced stats Kobe was on par with Shaq in the playoffs those years.. he was a two way beast.

03 hes already destroyed Duncan while he was at his peak with his midrange game. Check 01 when he dominated and clearly outplayed a peak level Duncan. Duncan cant affect Kobe Bryant. Hes a rim protector and rebounder first and foremost.. those areas arent going to help slow down Kobe. Rather have a KG like roamer who can close out. Its just different skills like a game of chess.

04 the only reason they killed him is he was coming to the end of a giant fued with Shaq.. Kobe never fueded with Pau and Odom so why would we assume an equal lack of chemistry like what happened with Shaq? It just wouldnt play out the same in two totally different situations

06 LA would be heavily favored against the Mavs and Kobe was considered better than Duncan that year. Kobe would also have a better supporting cast than Dirk. Theyd be heavy favorites.

08 through 10 hes winning at least two, and if one doesnt go his way, could get up for 2011 or 2012.


Were gonna have to agree to disagree on this whole literal interpretation thing. If a player like Kobe lost early say in 2010.. he would come out much harder in 2011. So would Pau. The fire was lost once they proved they could win multiple times in a row. If they had been losing, the level of hunger would be different in subsequent years.

Dude. You can't just start giving Kobe titles...especially against players clearly better than him at their peaks like Shaq and Duncan.

03 Kobe was not better than 03 Duncan...it's just a fact.

Why would Shaq not have a contender or at least 01 and 02? Duncan had to face Shaq/Kobe on the same ****ing team. Now you want Kobe to not have to face Shaq on a contender.

And honestly. Kobe as the best player on his own team in 01 is probably not even beating the Sixers...let alone a contender with Shaq.

And no way is he beating the 02 Kings with his own team...no way.

And you can claim 03 Kobe is beating 03 Duncan with similar help all you want, but 03 Duncan played at a level Kobe never touched. You under-rate the **** out of him. They actually played in 03 you know. But of course...Kobe wasn't hungry...LOL

04? Put together a team for Kobe that is beating the 04 Pistons please.

06? Again...i don't care about perception. Duncan had a 32/12/4 series against the Mavs and lost...Kobe would have his hands full. He's at best 50/50 in that series...then he'd have to deal with Shaq/Wade in the finals.

08? Again...we saw what happened...


And I'll say it again. This is all without having to face an incredible duo at the heart of his prime like Duncan did.

To actually do this. You'd have to put Duncan/Bird together for like 5 years from 01 through 06.

Also, the stuff about the 03 Lakers not caring..etc. Part of the blame goes on Kobe for hijacking the offense and caring more about making a statement about him "arriving" as he's admitted. He's not free of blame by a long shot.

The truth is. Give Kobe the kind of help Duncan has had...while playing against a Bird/Duncan/Phil Jackson tandem for 5 or 6 years...and he'd be lucky to win a couple titles.

There isn't one year other than 07 in which Duncan won where I think Kobe is likely to win honestly.

This is why Kobe has so many haters. You just start giving him shit he didn't earn. The guy has played with easily the most help of this era and he's won 5 titles...1 coming as a glorified role player. 3 coming with a top 8 player of all time with an argument for GOAT peak. And he's just going to win 4 or 5 playing with his own team having to go up against an all time great duo instead of being part of one?

And the stuff post 2010 is a joke. Lebron is clearly better...and so was Dirk in 11. I don't care how hungry Kobe was...he wasn't beating Dirk in 11...

This is all with Kobe having a legit championship team around him his 10 best years of his career. Realistically? Duncan didn't have that...so not sure why Kobe should.

[secund2nun]

7 finals appearances with 5 rings. Definitely similar to McGrady. :lol

With elite front courts.

We saw prime Kobe without elite front courts...he had 3 seasons (before Gasol and after Shaq) and he failed to even win a playoff series in that 3 season span and the max he could muster up was a 7th seed.

Kobe=Tmac=Wade

[Artillery]

5>4

3 of those are sidekick rings tbqh

Again, how many top ten HOFers has Duncan played with?

[Artillery]

This will probably end up like every other Kobe vs ______ thread. People will bring up legitimate stats and other advanced data but it will all be ignored due to ring count. These comparisons are always hard because Kobe's reputation is larger than his actual ability/impact on the game. Guys like Lebron or Duncan are obviously better but Kobe has that reputation in the media that has fooled people into thinking he's the second coming of MJ.

[secund2nun]

This will probably end up like every other Kobe vs ______ thread. People will bring up legitimate stats and other advanced data but it will all be ignored due to ring count. These comparisons are always hard because Kobe's reputation is larger than his actual ability/impact on the game. Guys like Lebron or Duncan are obviously better but Kobe has that reputation in the media that has fooled people into thinking he's the second coming of MJ.

True words. It is sad to see top 10 lists corrupted by such an unworthy player like Kobe. Kobe is a fraud who is nowhere as good as they say. Comparing Kobe to a real top 10 GOAT or even top 15 GOAT is a disgrace to knowledge, but people have been trained to base their views and "reality" off of what the media says. Some will try to slightly turn their head to fool themselves into thinking they are being "reasonable" by viewing the media's Kobe hype as slightly off....but in reality they live in the Kobe matrix and cannot see the complete media created fraud of Kobe.

Kobe is the true representation of the benefit of playing for the massive LA market...hype hype hype.

[tpols]

And he's just going to win 4 or 5 playing with his own team having to go up against an all time great duo instead of being part of one?
What? Duncan had since 2005 until 2013, one of the BEST supporting casts in the league and thats with no superduo to face since shaq went to miami.

Great coach
Manu
Parker
a host of great role/system players that have carried the Spurs to multiple 60 win seasons while Duncans throws up a 13/9 statline.

If you gave Kobe a similar supporting cast.. like Pau/Odom and some good role players, thats the same level of talent on both supporting casts. And we saw 3 straight Finals appearances at the tail end of Kobe's prime. If you gave him Pau since 05 through 2011 and Odom, they are a title favorite damn near every year.


You underrate Duncan's supporting casts.. he has had the opportunity to repeat but has never even made the Finals twice in a row let alone win back to backs. Kobe's done it twice with retarded numbers. Hes got the head to head, beats him in most career accomplishments, awards, any kind of total besides rebounding you can think of(although they getting close).. more records broken I would wager just based off all his peak scoring.. more rangz etc.

Duncans has had ridiculous supporting casts since 05ish stacked and with the most consistent coaching. Theyve been just as good if not better than some of Kobe's after 05. Yet Kobe won more.. because 06-12 Kobe was consistently a better player than Duncan

[DMAVS41]

What? Duncan had since 2005 until 2013, one of the BEST supporting casts in the league and thats with no superduo to face since shaq went to miami.

Great coach
Manu
Parker
a host of great role/system players that have carried the Spurs to multiple 60 win seasons while Duncans throws up a 13/9 statline.

If you gave Kobe a similar supporting cast.. like Pau/Odom and some good role players, thats the same level of talent on both supporting casts. And we saw 3 straight Finals appearances at the tail end of Kobe's prime. If you gave him Pau since 05 through 2011 and Odom, they are a title favorite damn near every year.


You underrate Duncan's supporting casts.. he has had the opportunity to repeat but has never even made the Finals twice in a row let alone win back to backs. Kobe's done it twice with retarded numbers. Hes got the head to head, beats him in most career accomplishments, awards, any kind of total besides rebounding you can think of(although they getting close).. more records broken I would wager just based off all his peak scoring.. more rangz etc.

Duncans has had ridiculous supporting casts since 05ish stacked and with the most consistent coaching. Theyve been just as good if not better than some of Kobe's after 05

Dude. Stop it.

Duncan wasn't in his prime after 07. Stop ignoring that Duncan's best years were 98 through 07...

Put prime Duncan in the league from 05 to present and it's a completely different story.

I swear...it's like you Kobe fans can't process reality.

Duncan's best years were 98 through 07. Not 05 through 13. You really think Duncan is losing in 12 or 13 in his prime? Jesus man...

The majority of Duncan's prime was spent not having a great team and playing against Shaq/Kobe

But in your absurd world...Kobe gets better help and doesn't have to play against a duo.

Do you really not comprehend.

You said Kobe had 01 through 10. So you'd have to map those years onto Duncan's to be fair.

So 01 Kobe on the 98 Spurs (not the identical team of course)
So 02 Kobe on the 99 Spurs

And so on... What years is he winning?

This is where the Bird/Duncan thing comes into play. Kobe would have to go up against that duo for 5 or 6 years of his 10 years at a legit first guy.

LOL

[NumberSix]

If you gave Kobe a similar supporting cast.. like Pau/Odom and some good role players, thats the same level of talent on both supporting casts. And we saw 3 straight Finals appearances at the tail end of Kobe's prime. If you gave him Pau since 05 through 2011 and Odom, they are a title favorite damn near every year.
What if you give him Dwight Howard, Pau, Nash, Jordan Hill, Earl Grant, Blake Mamba, Meeks & Metta? :confusedshrug:

[oolalaa]

10) Kobe
11) Duncan

As close as it gets.

[tpols]

Dude. Stop it.

Duncan wasn't in his prime after 07. Stop ignoring that Duncan's best years were 98 through 07...

Put prime Duncan in the league from 05 to present and it's a completely different story.

I swear...it's like you Kobe fans can't process reality.

Duncan's best years were 98 through 07. Not 05 through 13. You really think Duncan is losing in 12 or 13 in his prime? .
Duncans best years are from 99 to 07.. that would be his prime. Let him have Bird until 05ish, Kobe enters prime in 01ish, teams lose eventually dude. Bird/Duncan might threepeat from 99 to 01, lose once, win again, lose again and be done.

Kobe would only get a few chances in that time span, but he would have a bunch of time after it to feast on a weaker league where Dirk and Jason Terry are not beating a prime Kobe and Pau team.



Saying Kobe couldnt win 4 titles is absurd though. He won 2 back to back with Gasol within a year of getting the dude. Now you give them Gasol early back in 06 when Kobe was much better than in 2010.. Lakers are clear title favorites. Every year. And 4 titles isnt out of the picture. They were already half way there.

[DMAVS41]

What if you give him Dwight Howard, Pau, Nash, Jordan Hill, Earl Grant, Blake Mamba, Meeks & Metta? :confusedshrug:

Got to give it to Kobe stans. Dude is talking about Duncan's teams from 05 through 13...when since 08 at the latest he was out of his prime for sure.

Just comical.

[DMAVS41]

Duncans best years are from 99 to 07.. that would be his prime. Let him have Bird until 05ish, Kobe enters prime in 01ish, teams lose eventually dude. Bird/Duncan might threepeat from 99 to 01, lose once, win again, lose again and be done.

Kobe would only get a few chances in that time span, but he would have a bunch of time after it to feast on a weaker league where Dirk and Jason Terry are not beating a prime Kobe and Pau team.



Saying Kobe couldnt win 4 titles is absurd though. He won 2 back to back with Gasol within a year of getting the dude. Now you give them Gasol early back in 06 when Kobe was much better than in 2010.. Lakers are clear title favorites. Every year. And 4 titles isnt out of the picture. They were already half way there.


Dude. Kobe doesn't have enough years to do that.

99 through 07 is 9 years!...Kobe only has 10 years of his career at most he was good enough to win a title as the first option.

He's not winning 4 titles in place of Duncan with Duncan's kind of help from 99 through 08...or whatever stretch you want to pick for Duncan.

Stop it. Duncan didn't have great help back then. He's had better teams from 05 to present then he had from 98 through 04 (a large portion of his prime)...while having to face the Shaq/Kobe duo.

And no, Kobe/Gasol is absolutely not more than 50/50 to beat the 06 Mavs. Stop giving Kobe the 06 title when the dude quit in a game 7 against the ****ing Suns...and the Mavs beat a Spurs team with Duncan going for 32/12/4 for the series.

[Vienceslav]

There isn't
And the stuff post 2010 is a joke. Lebron is clearly better...and so was Dirk in 11. I don't care how hungry Kobe was...he wasn't beating Dirk in 11...


Just say it Dirk > Kobe all time.:roll:

[Heavincent]

The guy has played with easily the most help of this era and he's won 5 titles...1 coming as a glorified role player.

This is even more absurd than most of the other crap you spew.

[DMAVS41]

Just say it Dirk > Kobe all time.:roll:

Don't derail the thread please...but if we can't all agree that 11 Dirk was better than 11 Kobe...

Then this place has become an even bigger joke

[DMAVS41]

This is even more absurd than most of the other crap you spew.

Which part? The glorified role player? Or the most help of this era? 8 years with prime Shaq...and another 4 with legit championship help. What more do you ****ing want?

[Vienceslav]

Don't derail the thread please...but if we can't all agree that 11 Dirk was better than 11 Kobe...

Then this place has become an even bigger joke
You know you want to, it unfair that you have to try to look intelligent and keep the debate civil while you believe Dirk should be ranked higher than Kobe and you won't say it just because you'd be laughed at.
Such is the life of a niche stan.
To not derail the thread as you put it,
Kobe was obviously a better player if you look at his skill level and what he could do, if you take accolades into account, he has the edge also, but w/e, I'm pretty sure if you rank both guys anywhere from 7-9 you can get away with it.

[DMAVS41]

You know you want to, it unfair that you have to try to look intelligent and keep the debate civil while you believe Dirk should be ranked higher than Kobe and you won't say it just because you'd be laughed at.
Such is the life of a niche stan.
To not derail the thread as you put it,
Kobe was obviously a better player if you look at his skill level and what he could do, if you take accolades into account, he has the edge also, but w/e, I'm pretty sure if you rank both guys anywhere from 7-9 you can get away with it.

Dirk should not be ranked higher than Kobe all time.

The only laughing should be at tpols that thinks Kobe had a 15 year stretch of being a legit championship first option.

Or that he's too stupid to realize that Duncan wasn't in his prime for all the teams he keeps listing as so good from 08 through 13.

It would be like me listing Kobe's 97 and 98 teams as great teams (which they were by the way)...makes no sense

[tpols]

Dude. Kobe doesn't have enough years to do that.

99 through 07 is 9 years!...Kobe only has 10 years of his career at most he was good enough to win a title as the first option.

He's not winning 4 titles in place of Duncan with Duncan's kind of help from 99 through 08...or whatever stretch you want to pick for Duncan.

Stop it. Duncan didn't have great help back then. He's had better teams from 05 to present then he had from 98 through 04 (a large portion of his prime)...while having to face the Shaq/Kobe duo.

And no, Kobe/Gasol is absolutely not more than 50/50 to beat the 06 Mavs. Stop giving Kobe the 06 title when the dude quit in a game 7 against the ****ing Suns...and the Mavs beat a Spurs team with Duncan going for 32/12/4 for the series.
I'd say any year from 01 through 13 Kobe's team has a chance.. He was a top 5 player rated by YOU last season I remember. That was at the time of his injury and was common consensus at the time. He was good enough to win if he had the right pieces and a tragedy didnt occur like what happened with Dwight.. Kobe's been a top 5 candidate for best player like 13 years straight dude. Duncan has not.



f Kobe had Pau/Odom on your scale, 12 years from 1999 hed be done as a top 5 candidate in 2011. If he had weaker casts like early Duncan had from 99 to 04/05ish he wouldnt even have Pau/Odom yet. Hed have some shittier teammates not win anything for his first three years.

Then theyd get Gasol/Odom and have them for the next 8+ years of his prime with Duncan/Bird gone for at least half that time. That could be 4 titles.



Why are you freaking out over the years dude? Kobe lasted a bit longer than Duncan did. Duncan just resurged but Kobe hasnt been at a 2011 duncan level since like 99.

[tpols]

The only laughing should be at tpols that thinks Kobe had a 15 year stretch of being a legit championship first option.
lol

[Heavincent]

Which part? The glorified role player? Or the most help of this era? 8 years with prime Shaq...and another 4 with legit championship help. What more do you ****ing want?

Shaq played his entire ****ing career with championship help :oldlol: He played with Penny Hardaway (pre-injury), Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Nash, Rondo, Allen, Garnett, and Pierce. You could make a 2000's legends team just with the guys Shaq played with :oldlol: Granted, he did play with a lot of those guys when he was old and going on his ring chasing campaign, but the point still stands.

The part about Kobe being a role player is utterly ridiculous, even for you. 23/6/5 with elite perimeter defense. Pretty sure role players can't do that. I knew you were stupid, but not so stupid to make such a ludicrous claim. You outdid yourself there.

[NumberSix]

Which part? The glorified role player? Or the most help of this era? 8 years with prime Shaq...and another 4 with legit championship help. What more do you ****ing want?
Kobe had at least 12 seasons with a roster capable of being legit championship contenders. I can't think of anyone else outside of Bill Russell you can say that for.

[Vienceslav]

Dirk should not be ranked higher than Kobe all time.

The only laughing should be at tpols that thinks Kobe had a 15 year stretch of being a legit championship first option.
Well if that won't work then consider this,
Everybody who post ITT is agenda drive, meaning that they mold their argument around what they believe not letting facts mold their arguments, nobody who post here will change their opinion or even consider it.
We'll have this thread multiple times in 2014 and nobody will move an inch.
Everybody here knows how many rings and apps in the finals both guys have,
they remember the years, they know about the rosters, some guys can even recite statlines from memory.
It just seem that you are the only person who tries to be civil about it and won't even let my meek attempts to troll you get to you.
I'm pretty sure there's a happier place to discuss ball on the internet.:lol

[DMAVS41]

I'd say any year from 01 through 13 Kobe's team has a chance.. He was a top 5 player rated by YOU last season I remember. That was at the time of his injury and was common consensus at the time. He was good enough to win if he had the right pieces and a tragedy didnt occur like what happened with Dwight.. Kobe's been a top 5 candidate for best player like 13 years straight dude. Duncan has not.



f Kobe had Pau/Odom on your scale, 12 years from 1999 hed be done as a top 5 candidate in 2011. If he had weaker casts like early Duncan had from 99 to 04/05ish he wouldnt even have Pau/Odom yet. Hed have some shittier teammates not win anything for his first three years.

Then theyd get Gasol/Odom and have them for the next 8+ years of his prime with Duncan/Bird gone for at least half that time. That could be 4 titles.



Why are you freaking out over the years dude? Kobe lasted a bit longer than Duncan did. Duncan just resurged but Kobe hasnt been at a 2011 duncan level since like 99.

Kobe was absolutely not good enough in 05, 11, 12, and 13 (dude was ****ing injured for the playoffs)

And 03 and 04 are debatable.

On my scale? I think Duncan was ready in 98. So we can go 98 through 08...so I'll give you 11 years just for you bud!

Kobe isn't winning in 98. Is he beating Shaq and an all-star sg in 99?
He obviously isn't winning from 00 through 02.

03 is unlikely as Duncan was clearly better than Kobe ever was.

04? unlikely
05? possible, but unlikely
06? legit chance
07? for sure win
08? nope

So there you go tpols...your 11 years in place of Duncan. He's not touching 4 titles.

And oh my god to the Gasol/Odom 8 plus years of his prime....Duncan didn't have Manu/Parker for 8 plus years of his prime. Those guys literally did not get great until 05. He had them for 4 years of his prime if you take him through 08 on his prime. he won 2 titles and came within seconds of likely winning another if not for the Mavs upset. In 08 Manu was hurt.

Even if Kobe gets to the finals in 05...he still has to beat a Pistons team that raped him...and there would be no Shaq this time either...LOL

[NumberSix]

Kobe was absolutely not good enough in 05, 11, 12,
I actually disagree with this. He was good enough to win a FMVP in those years. I mean, worse players have. In all of those seasons he was certainly better than 2004 Billups. Fcuking Danny Green could have won a FMVP in 2013.

[Deuce Bigalow]

"To me, he's the no. 1 player [Bryant] over the 15 years I've been in this league."
-Dirk Nowitzki

"This is a good era for basketball, and it would be led by Kobe Bryant

[BlackVVaves]

There isn't a legit argument to have Kobe ahread of Duncan.

That being said. Duncan isn't ahead by a mile like some say. Just by enough that there is really no need to discuss it.

Pretty much this.

[DMAVS41]

I actually disagree with this. He was good enough to win a FMVP in those years. I mean, worse players have. In all of those seasons he was certainly better than 2004 Billups. Fcuking Danny Green could have won a FMVP in 2013.

It's about being the best player on a title winning team. Not a finals mvp.

[Heavincent]

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]"To me, he's the no. 1 player [Bryant] over the 15 years I've been in this league."
-Dirk Nowitzki

"This is a good era for basketball, and it would be led by Kobe Bryant

[tpols]

And 03 and 04 are debatable.

On my scale? I think Duncan was ready in 98. So we can go 98 through 08...so I'll give you 11 years just for you bud!

Kobe isn't winning in 98. Is he beating Shaq and an all-star sg in 99?
He obviously isn't winning from 00 through 02.

03 is unlikely as Duncan was clearly better than Kobe ever was.

04? unlikely
05? possible, but unlikely
06? legit chance
07? for sure win
08? nope

So there you go tpols...your 11 years in place of Duncan. He's not touching 4 titles.

You listed two legit chances.. which are actually pretty much certainties, one possible which idk what to make of.:lol and a few subjective unlikelies.

Whose to say that happens if Kobe gets Pau three years into his 12 year prime in 02? Duncan/Bird out by 04.. they have 05 through 2010(on you scale) to be title favorites every year. And of course Bird/Duncan wont win every year from 99 to 04.. theyll let 2 rings slip at a minimum. Kobe/Pau would have a chance then as well.

[DMAVS41]

You listed two legit chances.. which are actually pretty much certainties, one possible which idk what to make of.:lol and a few subjective unlikelies.

Whose to say that happens if Kobe gets Pau three years into his 12 year prime in 02? Duncan/Bird out by 04.. they have 05 through 2010(on you scale) to be title favorites every year.

He doesn't get to go to 2010 because Kobe didn't have 13 years of his career in which he was capable of being the man on a champion. I'll give you 11 years because I'm being nice...it's actually less than that.

So that is 98 through 08. Which lines up with Duncan's 11 best years.

So I'm asking you which years Kobe wins with the kind of help Duncan had.

We can cross off 98 (MJ), 99 would have to beat Shaq with a legit team, 00-02 (Bird/Duncan duo), 03 would have to win with a far weaker supporting cast than he's ever won with, 04 (Kobe ain't beating the pistons...nothing supports it), 05 unlikely, 06 possible but nothing more than a team equal to Mavs/Heat, 07 for sure, 08...of course not...we saw it.

There is 1 for sure win on that list. 07.

Which years do you disagree with? I'm curious...

[tpols]

He doesn't get to go to 2010 because Kobe didn't have 13 years of his career in which he was capable of being the man on a champion. I'll give you 11 years because I'm being nice...it's actually less than that.

So that is 98 through 08. Which lines up with Duncan's 11 best years.
..
I disagree.. I think his window was 01 to 13 because those are the years he was considered a top 5 player in the league. If you are a top 5 player and have one of the best supporting casts.. you will have great chances at winning.

I also dont agree with you listing 98 as part of duncans prime.. felt he started being tim duncan we know in 99 playoffs. So give Kobe 12 years from 99 it stretches to 2011.

Duncan/Bird out by 2004. They get full reign 05 to 11 to get 4 titles and could always sneak one in the duncan/bird era too. Pick up a quick scavenger title you know?

[BlackVVaves]

For his sheer impact on both ends of the floor, peak (03) Duncan > peak (06 or 07 or 08? :confusedshrug: ) Kobe.

Kobe has been able to maintain his high level of play for a longer span. I wouldn't say he was more consistent than Duncan, for with Duncan at the helm the Spurs have never won less than 50 games (which is both an impressive, yet at times overrated feat [when using to assess which team dominated the 2000s]), but I'd say he was able to maintain the production of a Top 10, Top 5 player for longer than Duncan was.

But, being an elite passing, defending, and scoring big simply outweighs anything a guard or otherwise wing player could do, unless their names end with Jordan, Johnson, or Bird....and possibly James.

[tpols]

For his sheer impact on both ends of the floor, peak (03) Duncan > peak (06 or 07 or 08? :confusedshrug: ) Kobe.

Kobe has been able to maintain his high level of play for a longer span. I wouldn't say he was more consistent than Duncan, for with Duncan at the helm the Spurs have never won less than 50 games (which is both an impressive, yet at times overrated feat [when using to assess which team dominated the 2000s]), but I'd say he was able to maintain the production of a Top 10, Top 5 player for longer than Duncan was.

But, being an elite passing, defending, and scoring big simply outweighs anything a guard or otherwise wing player could do, unless their names end with Jordan, Johnson, or Bird....and possibly James.
Bingo.

This is what Ive been saying all along and this dmavs dude isnt understanding. Kobe platued a bit lower than peak duncan but has been better than him for like 7 out of the last 8 years. Duncan dipped and came back up last year. Kobes never dropped below all nba level and has a longer more consistent prime.. which gives him more years to win titles in

[DMAVS41]

I disagree.. I think his window was 01 to 13 because those are the years he was considered a top 5 player in the league. If you are a top 5 player and have one of the best supporting casts.. you will have great chances at winning.

I also dont agree with you listing 98 as part of duncans prime.. felt he started being tim duncan we know in 99 playoffs. So give Kobe 12 years from 99 it stretches to 2011.

Duncan/Bird out by 2004. They get full reign 05 to 11 to get 4 titles and could always sneak one in the duncan/bird era too. Pick up a quick scavenger title you know?

For starters...Kobe was hurt in the 13 playoffs so that year is automatically removed.

11 is a joke. His team was not the problem.

And you counting 05...in which he was not good enough either. Again...his team was not the only problem. LOL

I'm being generous giving you 11 years. And no, Duncan in 98 was better than Duncan in 09. Sorry...

Have you actually looked at some of these rosters? Even if we take it through 09...Manu didn't play in the 09 playoffs...he was hurt. So Kobe has no chance that year either in place of Duncan. So **** it....I'll give you 98 through 09 and you still can't do shit with it. The 09 Spurs were playing Michael Finley 30 minutes a game. If you really think that team was a contender...I give up.

So I'll ask again...what years from 98 through 09 is Kobe winning playing with the kind of help Duncan had?

[DMAVS41]

Bingo.

This is what Ive been saying all along and this dmavs dude isnt understanding. Kobe platued a bit lower than peak duncan but has been better than him for like 7 out of the last 8 years. Duncan dipped and came back up last year. Kobes never dropped below all nba level and has a longer more consistent prime.. which gives him more years to win titles in

But he really hasn't dude.

That is your problem. You just ignore how good Duncan was right off the bat. Duncan was easily good enough to be the man from 98 through 08...that is 11 years.

You are just ignoring all the evidence in 11 and 13...still can't believe you are trying to count 13 as a possible title year for Kobe as the man.

And even then...I've now given you 12 years. Which is ****ing absurd. And you still can't get more titles because in 09....Duncan didn't have championship help in the playoffs. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Bingo.

This is what Ive been saying all along and this dmavs dude isnt understanding. Kobe platued a bit lower than peak duncan but has been better than him for like 7 out of the last 8 years. Duncan dipped and came back up last year. Kobes never dropped below all nba level and has a longer more consistent prime.. which gives him more years to win titles in

I'll break it down for you...now giving you 12 years...which is a joke, but we'll do it anyway

98 - Not beating MJ of course

99 - Has to get through Shaq on a quality team...and then get through the Knicks. Kobe's roster would like something like...Old Robinson, avery, elliot, elie, jaren Jackson. Doesn't seem likely

00 - 02 (not happening as we talked about)

03 - Has to get by Shaq/all nba guard coached by Phil...with a 15 ppg 47% TS tony Parker as his 2nd option. Also has to beat a Nets team that is actually way better than they are normally given credit for.

04 - Has to beat the Pistons in the finals with a team actually worse than the team he had in 04

05 - Has to beat the Suns and the Pistons ( a team clearly with his number)

06 - Has to beat a Mavs team that beat the Spurs with Duncan going for 32/12/4 and beat the Wade/Shaq Heat

07 - Wins for sure

08 - No...we already saw this play out in reality

09 - No...manu got hurt and Duncan didn't have championship help in the playoffs


That is giving him 12 years in place of Duncan...he's not winning 4. Hell, I could actually give you 13 years and nothing changes. Duncan's team in 10 wasn't good enough for Kobe to win with. Duncan put up 20/11/3 55% fg against the Suns in 10 and got swept. And that is ignoring that Kobe getting hurt in the first round if they played the Mavs is likely a loss as well.

So fine...take it to 13 years...hahahah

[Odinn]

I can not believe there are almost 100 responds...

A LeBron-stan throws a thread (much more like a bait) about Kobe and Duncan, and Kobe-stans come out from their caves with Kobe-haters.

Carry on. These things discussed like a hundred times. Use the search.

[Haks]

Tough one tbh
I think people saying Duncan>Kobe last year need to just stop hating
When you have a player on your team averaging 21/6 and top 5 in mvp voting and literally carried the team you cant tell me you would take him over Kobe. People are soo blinded by his finals performance when quite clearly he really wasn't visible in rd1-rd3 so stop bring stupid.
Anyway give me Duncan better to build around more impactful on defense with good offense

[rmt]

Kobe has had the benefit of better owner who was willing to go way over salary cap into luxury tax area, better city to attract free agents, coaches (PJ - coach with 6 rings to his name before Kobe/Shaq vs Pop - coach with 73-73 NBA record before 1st championship season), team mates (Shaq - top 10er, MDE) during his championship runs.

Duncan has done more with less. His owner Peter Holt is so cheap he'd trade away a talent like Scola just to get rid of Jackie Butler's contract. Don't even start on how the Spurs would have done since 08 with Scola instead of ancient McDyess, Bonner and Blair. It's a disgrace the big man help that Duncan's had as he ages. Even though he's soft as hell (offensively), thank god for Splitter - now SAS has returned to top 10 defense instead of the middle of the pack with Dice/Bonner/Blair.

Under Kobe's "this is still MY team," nobody will develop, nobody will grow when Kobe wants ALL of the attention. Who wants to play with that type of team mate? Who would get the touches needed to mature into players like Parker and Manu? And is the goal to jack up as many shots as possible to pass MJ and reach KAJ or is it for your team to grow/develop so that the team can win as much as possible? Give me the player who lays back (and lets others shine), does only what's necessary for the benefit of the team and when it's really important (like games 6 and 7 of the NBA Finals) steps up when team mates are struggling.

[rmt]

Tough one tbh
I think people saying Duncan>Kobe last year need to just stop hating
When you have a player on your team averaging 21/6 and top 5 in mvp voting and literally carried the team you cant tell me you would take him over Kobe. People are soo blinded by his finals performance when quite clearly he really wasn't visible in rd1-rd3 so stop bring stupid.
Anyway give me Duncan better to build around more impactful on defense with good offense

And who do you think was defending against Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph? There's a reason why Spurs struggle against perimeter-scoring teams like GSW and MIA (6 and 7 games) and they don't against big man teams like (playoff lakers) and MEM (SWEEPS). Duncan's elite defense against big men teams is maximized while Manu/Parker must play (and get burned by Curry, Thompson, Westbrook, etc.) Duncan averaged 18.1 pts / 10.2 rebs and 1.6 blks for the ENTIRE playoffs - it wasn't just in the Finals (18.9/12.1/1.4)

[Himan12]

Duncan was the better player. Had better impact, was more efficient, won more with less, and wasn't involved in drama with teammates and coaches.

Not sure how kobe can be considered the better player...

[DMAVS41]

I can not believe there are almost 100 responds...

A LeBron-stan throws a thread (much more like a bait) about Kobe and Duncan, and Kobe-stans come out from their caves with Kobe-haters.

Carry on. These things discussed like a hundred times. Use the search.

Because tpols and I were actually in a different type of discussion that I know we haven't had before.

I think it's an insult to Duncan to act like it's easy to rack up 4 titles with the kind of teams he's had and the circumstances he's played in. But that is just me.

07 is the only cakewalk year he's had...and years like 99 and 03 are under-rated for me. I don't think Kobe just steps into similar teams and wins all that often.

[Solid Snake]

Kobe has been in the NBA one season longer than Duncan. ONE!

You really gonna act like Kobe's 1 extra season as a crappy bench player gives him some kind of longevity edge? Timmy is older and seems to be holding up better.


Longevity isn't just about length of time played. It's length of time played at a high level. Duncan played FAAAAAAR below is standard for the past several years, obviously still a great player. Kobe on the other hand didn't dip too far, not counting this year, he's consistently put up numbers every single year more or less.

[Stringer Bell]

Duncan gets the edge in peak, and also career wise. Not like it's a big margin between the 2.

[DMAVS41]

Longevity isn't just about length of time played. It's length of time played at a high level. Duncan played FAAAAAAR below is standard for the past several years, obviously still a great player. Kobe on the other hand didn't dip too far, not counting this year, he's consistently put up numbers every single year more or less.

You can't ignore the first few years of his career. It took Kobe until his 5th year (01) to reach the level Duncan was basically at from day 1. Championship first option.

The decline of Duncan is one of the biggest myths on here. He had basically 98 through 08 without any dip.

The first true small dip was in 09 and 10...when he still was playing elite defense and giving you like 20/10/3. Then he started his decline in 11 and 12. But then had another elite season in 13 where he was the best player on a team that was a legit contender.

Seriously...that is like 11 straight years of beasting....2 more of being really good...then another elite season...then this year.

Compare that to Kobe...Kobe's 2 first seasons sucked. In 99/00 he wasn't as good as prime Duncan...it wasn't until 01 that Kobe reached championship first option status. Then he was that from 01 through 10. Assuming you grant him 05...which I don't see why you would. In 11 he dipped as he stopped playing defense and was hurt. 12 he played better, but still absolutely not as good as his prime. 13 he resurged a bit like Duncan, but again played no defense and got hurt. Now he's hurt again.

Duncan has actually had better longevity counting this year...and Duncan is clearly better suited at playing a different role on a team as well. He doesn't have the ego of Kobe and his game is better suited to not have to be "the man" on a team.

Total myth. Take a look at Duncan's per 36 numbers for his career. They are basically identical every year outside of 11, 12, and 14. And those years he was very good as well. It's the model of consistency actually. And he's done still playing high level defense throughout.

Kobe, on the other hand, too 4 years to become a first option type guy...and then has clearly not been one post 2010 because of age/injuries.

And lets use the Kobe argument vs Wade...games missed.

Duncan has missed 87 games in his career to date (did it by hand so double check)

Kobe has missed 131 games in his career to date

I hate that argument, but would like to see Kobe stans stay consistent as that is the biggest reason they take Kobe over Wade

[DMAVS41]

Also, the 08 series needs to be put into context.

Not only did Duncan actually play really well, but the Spurs were basically missing their 2nd best player in Manu. He was hurt and was awful...he had 1 good game that skews his series averages...

It was a 5 game series and Manu had games of 3/13, 2/8, 2/8, 3/9...

3 of the spurs 4 losses came by a total of 14 points. It was a very close series actually...even with Manu hurt.

We really supposed to ignore that? Flip that around and how do you think it plays out? Give Duncan a healthy Manu and have Gasol play injured.

And then Manu missed the entire 09 playoffs...and was hurt again in 11 when they lost in the first round.

The point is...you can't just give Kobe fully healthy squads those years and have it be remotely fair...it's like tpols wants to ignore reality and grant Kobe fully healthy contenders every single year of his prime...and then to make things even worse...wants to claim Kobe was a championship first option from 01 through 13...

So somehow Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Artest with Phil Jackson coaching isn't enough? But the 11 Spurs would be? Makes no sense...

[Stringer Bell]

Why is it when Kobe is compared historically to a big guy like Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, the longevity of the big guys are always underplayed?

Kobe has had 13, maybe 14 seasons as an elite player (2000-01 was his true breakout year, but he was still an excellent player in 1999-00).

Duncan was an elite player as soon as he entered the league in 1997-98, and he was an elite last year in 2012-13. That spans 16 seasons, he had a couple seasons before last year in which he sort of fell of. The difference in longevity as a top player is minimal.

[DMAVS41]

Why is it when Kobe is compared historically to a big guy like Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, the longevity of the big guys are always underplayed?

Kobe has had 13, maybe 14 seasons as an elite player (2000-01 was his true breakout year, but he was still an excellent player in 1999-00).

Duncan was an elite player as soon as he entered the league in 1997-98, and he was an elite last year in 2012-13. That spans 16 seasons, he had a couple seasons before last year in which he sort of fell of. The difference in longevity as a top player is minimal.

Don't you get it? We have to ignore any year Kobe dipped as well. Apparently Kobe didn't dip in 05 or 11...and he also apparently could have won the title in 13 with a blown achilles.

And he could have won the title in 09 in place of Duncan with Manu missing the playoffs...GODBE!!!!

Dat Kobe Stan logic...

[Harison]

Duncan Top9, Kobe Top10 (arguably 11 now, since Lebron has a good case over him).

[TheBigVeto]

Duncan >>>>>>>>>>> Kobe
/thread

[air mamba]

this is close, but Duncan edges out in the end

Jordan
kareem
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Shaq
Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Lebron

Duncan & Kobe are pretty much set all time unless something crazy happens
Lebrons going to overtake everyone not named Michael Jordan by 2018

[K]

Is this really a debate? I couldn't tell someone with a straight face that I'd take Kobe Bryant over Tim Duncan.

I don't see him (Tim Duncan) as worse offensively, all things considered, and defensively it's a blow out.

[tpols]

[QUOTE=K

[PickernRoller]

Who rank higher in the NBA All time lists??

Who was the better player during their PEAK/Prime?

Who's the more consistent player in the regular season, playoffs, and in the finals??

http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/274855-2/Kobe+Bryant+has+a+laugh+with+Tim+Duncan.JPG

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0906/si.cover.history.may31/images/kobe-bryant-tim-duncan.jpg

Laker's killer Tim Duncan....:oldlol: :oldlol: :roll:

There is only one killer between those two and that's Kobe. Raping the Spurs since the stone age.