Let's compare Kobe and Lebron's championship teams

[SpecialQue]

Let's start from 2008 and 2011, where each had their own loss in their first finals appearances (I'm skipping the Kobe/Shaq years since no one here gives Kobe credit for those anyway). Which player overall had the better team, better second option, and more difficult finals match-up? Who had a harder road to the finals in their conference for each three appearances?

An interesting fact about both teams is that both Kobe and Lebron had series-saving shots by role players (Artest and Allen) in elimination games, had a relatively easy match-up in their second finals appearances, and had a third appearance that went to seven games against an older team.

[riseagainst]

woot this gon be good.

[IllegalD]

Let's start from 2008 and 2011, where each had their own loss in their first finals appearances (I'm skipping the Kobe/Shaq years since no one here gives Kobe credit for those anyway). Which player overall had the better team, better second option, and more difficult finals match-up? Who had a harder road to the finals in their conference for each three appearances?

An interesting fact about both teams is that both Kobe and Lebron had series-saving shots by role players (Artest and Allen) in elimination games, had a relatively easy match-up in their second finals appearances, and had a third appearance that went to seven games against an older team.

The Artest shot WASNT a series-saving shot as the Lakers were already ahead at that point. His shot just put them up by more and was memorable because of the circumstances and it being Artest. Ray Allen's shot is LITERALLY a series/legacy saving shot that the same LeBron Stans who overhyped the Artest shot will try to underplay.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Lebron had better teams but faced harder competition in the finals. That magic team was the worst finals team since 07 cavs (worst of all time)

[IllegalD]

Not to mention that LeBron's third option is a first-option allstar thats capable of puttinf up 37 and 10 when he gets the ball instead of being marginalized in the LeBrob offense an has carried his own squad to the playoffs while Kobe's 3rd option is an underachieing crackhead who is out of the league.

[Mr. Jabbar]

lebron had 20x times more help and its not rlly up for debate so dont bother replying

[alec613]

Artest's shot was the dagger ; Allen's shot saved that franchise

[DMAVS41]

Lebron's 11 team was better than any team Kobe has had post Shaq.

[CelticBaller]

Lebron's 11 team was better than any team Kobe has had post Shaq.
Pretty much

[PJR]

No one with any sense of objectivity thinks Kobe is as impactful of a basketball player as LeBron.

Why this continues to be a discussion is beyond me.

[NumberSix]

lebron had 20x times more help and its not rlly up for debate so dont bother replying
I won't.

















FCUK!

[Solefade]

Lebron's 11 team was better than any team Kobe has had post Shaq.


you can argue that because wade, bosh, and bron were all healthy but they had bottom tier role players and spolestra was still trying to figure out.

can't really argue that bron's 12 and 13 team is better than kobe's 08-10 though because of the health of wade and bosh.



also Durant's 12 team is so under the radar. They had KD, WB, Harden, and Ibaka w/ a nice bench.

[K Xerxes]

Bron's had the better help, but he's had to do just as much - if not more -heavy lifting than Kobe due to various injuries (Bosh and Wade) and team chemistry problems. In reality the Heat are a poorly constructed team that wins due to incredible talent, not because they particularly mesh well together. Any team with size can fully exploit their well documented weakness.

In terms of competition, 2008 Celtics is the best team either faced. 09 Magic is the worst. However, the two teams match up differently with different opposition. Lakers would struggle less against bigger opposition with Gasol, and would have beaten the Spurs in 13 in less than 7 games.

In the end, they both have 2 rings in 3 finals appearances. Don't really think Kobe could have done more, especially with that Boston defense in 08. LeBron could certainly have done more in 2011, although whether he can continue to win is yet to be seen.

Also, there is no way we should discount Kobe's contribution in the three peat, particularly in 01 and 02 where he was a top 3 player in the league himself.

[PJR]

We're not comparing players here, we're comparing teams and match ups.

Try to keep up.

You are comparing them, though. The title doesn't say "Let's compare the Lakers and Heat championship teams". It says Kobe and LeBron. Who do you think you're fooling here, brah? :oldlol:

[Mr. Jabbar]

Artest's shot was the dagger ; Allen's shot saved that franchise

brans mansion

http://imageshack.us/a/img707/9973/auzf.png

[Illuminati]

The Artest shot WASNT a series-saving shot as the Lakers were already ahead at that point. His shot just put them up by more and was memorable because of the circumstances and it being Artest. Ray Allen's shot is LITERALLY a series/legacy saving shot that the same LeBron Stans who overhyped the Artest shot will try to underplay.

:facepalm

First of all, that Artest shot happened in Game 7, where the pressure is at an all-time high, and he did bailout Kobe who shot 6-24 that game, if Kobe took that shot the chances of him making it were very, very slim.

Now that LeBron "bailout" happened during Game 6 (not taking credit away from it) but LeBron scored 16 points in the fourth quarter, including a clutch 3 to bring his team within 5 points. Kobe only scored 10 points in the fourth quarter and 8 points came from the freethrow line.

Now, Game 7, where the pressure is at the highest, LeBron had one of the greatest Game 7 performance in recent memory.

[NumberSix]

Lebron's 11 team was better than any team Kobe has had post Shaq.
Is this a troll post? With Bibby and Joel starting?


Outside of the big 3, who do the Heat have right now? Battier, Birdman, Cole, Ray, Haslem..... Notice something. None of them were on the 2011 team.


And don't say Haslem was. He was out nearly the entire year. Chalmers was a well below average PG in 2011. Joel Anthony, Dampier and Macgloire at center. Mike Miller was ALWAYS hurt.


The 2011 Heat was the big 3 and a trash supporting cast.

[DMAVS41]

you can argue that because wade, bosh, and bron were all healthy but they had bottom tier role players and spolestra was still trying to figure out.

can't really argue that bron's 12 and 13 team is better than kobe's 08-10 though because of the health of wade and bosh.



also Durant's 12 team is so under the radar. They had KD, WB, Harden, and Ibaka w/ a nice bench.

I don't know how I'd rank the some of them, but I'd put 11 Heat the best for sure. 13 Heat the worst.

So it would be

11 Heat
10 Lakers
12 Heat
09 Lakers
08 Lakers
13 Heat

Something like that. but the middle could be changed.

[SpecialQue]

You are comparing them, though. The title doesn't say "Let's compare the Lakers and Heat championship teams". It says Kobe and LeBron. Who do you think you're fooling here, brah? :oldlol:

I deleted that post because I realized it came off as unnecessarily dickish. I used that because both won FMVP and were the unquestioned leaders of these teams. Plus more people seem to want to discuss Kobe and Lebron topics than team topics.

Full disclosure: I could give two shits about Kobe's legacy, despite being a Laker fan.

[DMAVS41]

Is this a troll post? With Bibby and Joel starting?


Outside of the big 3, who do the Heat have right now? Battier, Birdman, Cole, Ray, Haslem..... Notice something. None of them were on the 2011 team.


And don't say Haslem was. He was out nearly the entire year. Chalmers was a well below average PG in 2011. Joel Anthony, Dampier and Macgloire at center. Mike Miller was ALWAYS hurt.


The 2011 Heat was the big 3 and a trash supporting cast.

Yet they were the best team because you had Wade still at or near his peak. You discount that way too much. 12 on paper is easily the best, but Bosh missed too many games. As much as I like Gasol...he's no prime/peak Wade.

2011 was the best team...the only reason they aren't considered that easily is the Lebron choke. If Lebron plays normal the Heat win in 5...

And end up going 16-4 for the playoffs...while dominating 3 good to great teams in the Celtics, Bulls, and Mavs.

[Mr Exlax]

Give me Bynum and Gasol in my frontcourt and I think the rest is a wrap.

[Solefade]

we've never really seen the heat truly play to the potential of the talent they have. 2011, bron sucked it up role players were really ****ing trash.

they finally have good role players in 2012 and 2013 but Wade/Bosh hurt.

[NumberSix]

you can argue that because wade, bosh, and bron were all healthy but they had bottom tier role players and spolestra was still trying to figure out.

can't really argue that bron's 12 and 13 team is better than kobe's 08-10 though because of the health of wade and bosh.



also Durant's 12 team is so under the radar. They had KD, WB, Harden, and Ibaka w/ a nice bench.
I would argue that LeBron's teams were better than Kobe's straight up, but relative to the league of their time frames, Kobe's were better. 12 thunder or 13 Spurs would beat any of those 2008-2010 Lakers teams.

[SpecialQue]

we've never really seen the heat truly play to the potential of the talent they have. 2011, bron sucked it up role players were really ****ing trash.

they finally have good role players in 2012 and 2013 but Wade/Bosh hurt.

Didn't we get something close to that when they were on that streak last season? They seemed invincible.

[Solefade]

Didn't we get something close to that when they were on that streak last season? They seemed invincible.

yeah we got flashes of that but wade has never been healthy in the playoffs with this group of role players

[Solefade]

I would argue that LeBron's teams were better than Kobe's straight up, but relative to the league of their time frames, Kobe's were better. 12 thunder or 13 Spurs would beat any of those 2008-2010 Lakers teams.

that's a better way to put it

[riseagainst]

:facepalm

First of all, that Artest shot happened in Game 7, where the pressure is at an all-time high, and he did bailout Kobe who shot 6-24 that game, if Kobe took that shot the chances of him making it were very, very slim.

Now that LeBron "bailout" happened during Game 6 (not taking credit away from it) but LeBron scored 16 points in the fourth quarter, including a clutch 3 to bring his team within 5 points. Kobe only scored 10 points in the fourth quarter and 8 points came from the freethrow line.

Now, Game 7, where the pressure is at the highest, LeBron had one of the greatest Game 7 performance in recent memory.

:facepalm
game 6 was just as pressured as game 7, aka win or go home.
twisting things around to fit your own agenda. :oldlol:

[PJR]

Yet they were the best team because you had Wade still at or near his peak. You discount that way too much. 12 on paper is easily the best, but Bosh missed too many games. As much as I like Gasol...he's no prime/peak Wade.

2011 was the best team...the only reason they aren't considered that easily is the Lebron choke. If Lebron plays normal the Heat win in 5...

And end up going 16-4 for the playoffs...while dominating 3 good to great teams in the Celtics, Bulls, and Mavs.

2011 was not the best Heat team. Sorry you're wrong. As a longtime season ticket holder, and someone has who literally probably watched every Heat game for the last 10 years. I simply cannot agree with that.

2011 was not the best version of the James, Wade, Bosh era Heat.

Just because the top end talent were all playing at a high level, doesn't mean it's the best team.

The brand of basketball the Heat were playing in 2011 compared to the last couple years is night and day. James, Wade, and Bosh were literally taking turns iso-ing on the wing. Phil Jackson made a wisecrack in 2010 saying the Heat's offense looked like it came out of an XBOX. :oldlol: Not to mention they had little to depth with Miller and Haslem being ravaged by injuries.

Once Spoelstra put a premium on floor spacing, started to maximize LeBron's versatility, and the hierarchy was established between the Big Three, that's when the Heat took off. Not to mention the Heat's depth increased significantly. James Jones was getting major clock in 2011. Now he can't get off the bench. Enough said.

When it comes to winning, Continuity matters. As does depth. And Heat needed to gel just like any other team. People always say the only reason the Heat lost to the Mavs is because LeBron choked in the Finals, well guess what? The reason LeBron choked because he was never truly felt comfortable on the floor. And it came to a head in the Finals.

And some of the shots LeBron was hitting in the series against the Celtics and Bulls were ridiculous. That shit wasn't sustainable.

[Bandito]

Give me Bynum and Gasol in my frontcourt and I think the rest is a wrap.
You mean Gasol and a wheeling chair?

[Micku]

2011 was not the best Heat team. Sorry you're wrong. As a longtime season ticket holder, and someone has who literally probably watched every Heat game for the last 10 years. I simply cannot agree with that.

2011 was not the best version of the James, Wade, Bosh era Heat.

Just because the top end talent were all playing at a high level, doesn't mean it's the best team.

The brand of basketball the Heat were playing in 2011 compared to the last couple years is night and day. James, Wade, and Bosh were literally taking turns iso-ing on the wing. Phil Jackson made a wisecrack in 2010 saying the Heat's offense looked like it came out of an XBOX. :oldlol: Not to mention they had little to depth with Miller and Haslem being ravaged by injuries.


This is true. But they were the most healthy in 2011. They played better as a team in 2013 when healthy, but Wade was injured throughout the playoffs and Bosh got injured with the Pacers. If they weren't injured, then they may have performed better.

2012 was the same. Wade was injured throughout the playoffs, but still performed much better than 2013, and Bosh was injured. If they weren't injured, then the Celtics and Pacers series probably wouldn't have lasted so long.

I would say that the 2011 and 2012 were probably their best team in the playoffs. 2011 because Wade/LeBron/Bosh were all healthy and they just beat them with talent than actual teamplay. They did have solid role players tho. I would say that the 2011 was the best playoff team, but LeBron choked the finals away.

2012 Heat was better, but they were dealing with injuries. And 2013 Heat team was the best team they ever had so far when healthy.

[Mr Exlax]

You mean Gasol and a wheeling chair?

Bynum was healthy one season iirc. I just really really really don't like the way Miami is constructed. I hate that LeBron has to carry so much of the load. That's why this team isn't an alltime great to me. Even the one last season on the winning streak. I'd just much rather the Lakers teams that Kobe had. I have a big man bias too though.

[DMAVS41]

2011 was not the best Heat team. Sorry you're wrong. As a longtime season ticket holder, and someone has who literally probably watched every Heat game for the last 10 years. I simply cannot agree with that.

2011 was not the best version of the James, Wade, Bosh era Heat.

Just because the top end talent were all playing at a high level, doesn't mean it's the best team.

The brand of basketball the Heat were playing in 2011 compared to the last couple years is night and day. James, Wade, and Bosh were literally taking turns iso-ing on the wing. Phil Jackson made a wisecrack in 2010 saying the Heat's offense looked like it came out of an XBOX. :oldlol: Not to mention they had little to depth with Miller and Haslem being ravaged by injuries.

Once Spoelstra put a premium on floor spacing, started to maximize LeBron's versatility, and the hierarchy was established between the Big Three, that's when the Heat took off. Not to mention the Heat's depth increased significantly. James Jones was getting major clock in 2011. Now he can't get off the bench. Enough said.

When it comes to winning, Continuity matters. As does depth. And Heat needed to gel just like any other team. People always say the only reason the Heat lost to the Mavs is because LeBron choked in the Finals, well guess what? The reason LeBron choked because he was never truly felt comfortable on the floor. And it came to a head in the Finals.

And some of the shots LeBron was hitting in the series against the Celtics and Bulls were ridiculous. That shit wasn't sustainable.


Sorry, but you are wrong...the 13 Heat in the playoffs don't even get by the 11 Celtics. LOL...

Lebron choked. Wasn't sustainable? It's not sustainable to ask Lebron not to completely choke? Shit, they beat the Bulls in 5...with Wade not even playing all that well to be honest. Not sustainable? They beat the Bulls in 5 with Wade going for 19/6/2 on 41% shooting...rofl. How the **** is that not sustainable.

The only thing that could have kept the Heat from winning the title in 11 was an epic choke. And that is what happened. It wasn't some flaw in the team...it wasn't lack of depth. It was the best player on the team literally shitting himself on the biggest stage in the basketball world. So when you compare supporting casts...that doesn't matter. Because this is about Lebron's help.

Like I said...the 12 team when healthy was clearly the best, but they weren't healthy for enough of the playoffs.

The 11 Heat would have gone 16-4 against the best competition of the Heat era if Lebron doesn't choke. And this is about Lebron's help...not Lebron himself.

11 Wade is being severely under-rated here...

You put that 11 supporting cast up against 12 and 13 without Lebron...and it's not even competitive. Again...Bosh out in 12.

Like...do people realize that Lebron was better in the 13 finals than he was in 11...and the Heat should have still lost in 6 to a Spurs team not as good and certainly not playing nearly as well as the 11 Mavs?

They should have lost game 6 with Parker/Green/Manu shooting a combined 9 of 35...and needed two missed ft's at the end to have a chance.

GTFO with this 13 Heat better than the 11 Heat. You put those two teams minus Lebron against each other and the 11 Heat beat the 13 Heat in 5...likely a sweep.

[Bandito]

Bynum was healthy one season iirc. I just really really really don't like the way Miami is constructed. I hate that LeBron has to carry so much of the load. That's why this team isn't an alltime great to me. Even the one last season on the winning streak. I'd just much rather the Lakers teams that Kobe had. I have a big man bias too though.
And that season was in 2012 when the Lakers lost against the Thunder when he got shooked.

[Micku]

Sorry, but you are wrong...the 13 Heat in the playoffs don't even get by the 11 Celtics. LOL...


Yeah they would've. The 11 Celtics would've made it closer, but I think the Heat would've won. The 11 Celts team was dealing with a bunch of injures. Rondo was injured, I think Ray or PP was dealing with an injury but I'm not sure, Shaq was dealing with injuries and was done, they couldn't play to their full potential in the playoffs and the 12 Celts team was better. KG was better, Rondo was better,

The Heat 13 had better role players to cut the slack with Wade and Bosh being injured. But the Heat 13 was better healthy.

[PJR]

Sorry, but you are wrong...the 13 Heat in the playoffs don't even get by the 11 Celtics. LOL...

Lebron choked. Wasn't sustainable? It's not sustainable to ask Lebron not to completely choke? Shit, they beat the Bulls in 5...with Wade not even playing all that well to be honest.

Like I said...the 12 team when healthy was clearly the best, but they weren't healthy for enough of the playoffs.

The 11 Heat would have gone 16-4 against the best competition of the Heat era if Lebron doesn't choke. And this is about Lebron's help...not Lebron himself.

11 Wade is being severely under-rated here...

You put that 11 supporting cast up against 12 and 13 without Lebron...and it's not even competitive. Again...Bosh out in 12.

I follow your post from time to time, and I must say the way you analyze basketball is pretty silly. You are brainwashed by ESPN.

You have no concept of team synergy and chemistry. You think basketball is as simple is put this player with that player and then BOOM championship.:oldlol:

It doesn't work that way. Continuity, among both the coaching staff and players matters. Depth does too.

[branslowski]

This thread is dumb. Outside of Kobe and Gasol, Lakers players during those title runs weren't "stacked talents producing".

Bynum 09' Playoff Run: 6ppg average..(avg 3reb)
Odom 09' Playoff Run 12ppg average

Bynum 10' playoff Run: 8ppg average
Odom 10' playoff Run: 9ppg average
Artest 10' playoff Run: 11ppg 4reb 40%fg

Used ppg because Bron fans bring up Bosh avg 12ppg and Wade avg 15ppg, call that trash, and then prop up Bynum, Odom and Artest.:biggums:

Shits funny how uniformed posters are when they're trying to discredit Kobe.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

This thread is dumb. Outside of Kobe and Gasol, Lakers players during those title runs weren't "stacked talents producing".

Bynum 09' Playoff Run: 6ppg average..(avg 3reb)
Odom 09' Playoff Run 12ppg average

Bynum 10' playoff Run: 8ppg average
Odom 10' playoff Run: 9ppg average
Artest 10' playoff Run: 11ppg 4reb 40%fg

Used ppg because Bron fans bring up Bosh avg 12ppg and Wade avg 15ppg, call that trash, and then prop up Bynum, Odom and Artest.:biggums:

Shits funny how uniformed posters are when they're trying to discredit Kobe.

The only one I've seen doing that is Silk. Is that what you're trolling about for weeks? Because one troll is in your head :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

I follow your post from time to time, and I must say the way you analyze basketball is pretty silly. You are brainwashed by ESPN.

You have no concept of team synergy and chemistry. You think basketball is as simple is put this player with that player and then BOOM championship.:oldlol:

It doesn't work that way. Continuity, among both the coaching staff and players matters. Depth does too.


Great comeback. It is you that is brainwashed.

Tell me how the Heat were better in 13...when they needed 7 to beat a Pacers team not as good as the 11 Bulls? When they should have lost in 6 again in the finals to an inferior Spurs team compared to the 11 Mavs...with Parker/Manu/Green absolutely choking? With Lebron playing better in 13 than he did in 11.

The only reason the 11 team isn't looked at as an utterly dominant team is the choke by Lebron.

They won 58 games afters starting 9-8. Think about this please. That means they went 49-16 after the shaky start in which chemistry actually was an issue. It wasn't by the time of the playoffs. And then they blew through the playoffs with ease. Then were about to go up 2-0 against the Mavs and enter the Lebron choke.

That is what happened. Not some nonsense about chemistry...etc.

It was Lebron choking. If he plays as bad as he did in 11 in 13...loss in 5...to a ****ing worse Spurs team.

You are brainwashed dude...all because your team lost. When in fact...11 was the strongest they've ever been...Lebron was their weakness. And luckily when comparing supporting casts...you don't include the player who is not part of the supporting cast.

[Heavincent]

Kobe won just as much with less help. Gasol was excellent, but Odom and Bynum aren't exactly guys I would want playing major roles on a team that's competing for a championship. Odom is an overly emotional crackhead, while Bynum has glass knees and just doesn't really give a shit anyway.

[Heavincent]

No one with any sense of objectivity thinks Kobe is as impactful of a basketball player as LeBron.

Why this continues to be a discussion is beyond me.

Yet Kobe won just as much with less help.

[Mr Exlax]

And that season was in 2012 when the Lakers lost against the Thunder when he got shooked.

See I don't blame that on him. He was beasting that series. They should have fed him the ball more. Even when OKC started fronting the post, all it would take is 2 quick skip passes and dump it down to him instead of taking jumpers.

[PJR]

Great comeback. It is you that is brainwashed.

Tell me how the Heat were better in 13...when they needed 7 to beat a Pacers team not as good as the 11 Bulls? When they should have lost in 6 again in the finals to an inferior Spurs team compared to the 11 Mavs...with Parker/Manu/Green absolutely choking? With Lebron playing better in 13 than he did in 11.


It's called matchups. And they do matter in basketball. Chris Bosh matches up far better with Joakim Noah than he does with Roy Hibbert who has 4 inches, and 70lbs on him. The Pacers are far more capable of punishing Miami in the front court, than that Chicago team could.

But you can believe whatever you want. Not going to go back and fourth on this. Dan LeBatard said Pat Riley privately told him (after James and Bosh agreed to sign with the Heat),"Teams better get us the first year, because that's going to be the worst verison" :oldlol:



Yet Kobe won just as much with less help.

He didn't have "less help". First of all the team composition of both the Heat and Lakers are entirely different. The Lakers advantage was quality size in the front court in addition to the talents of Kobe. Ask any coach, and they'll tell you the greatest equalizer in basketball is quality size in the front court.

That's the main reason why people think Indiana will pose issues against Miami, despite Miami having the best player on the court. *shrugs*

[Element]

Ranking the supporting casts behind LeBron/Kobe, in terms of postseason performance:

11 Heat
12 Heat
09 Lakers
10 Lakers
13 Heat
08 Lakers

Ranking the difficulty of opponents before Finals:

08 Lakers
11 Heat
09 Lakers
10 Lakers
12 Heat
13 Heat

Finals opponents:

08 Celtics
10 Celtics
13 Spurs
11 Mavs
12 Thunder
09 Magic

[Droid101]

People, stop responding to PJR. He is a 100% troll and brings nothing to the table.

[PJR]

People, stop responding to PJR. He is a 100% troll and brings nothing to the table.

:oldlol: Shut the **** up. How am I troll? Because I'm not a Laker/Kobe fanatic like you are? :oldlol: Sit your ass down, *****.

[Mr. Jabbar]

gasol odom and bynum would be handing gatorades in the miami heat, kobe was not only their teammate but their babysitter, these are guys who would have never ever dream of a championship if it weren't for godbe...look at them now, odumb doesnt know shit bout anything in life much less bball, pau could increase his kobeless 0-20 playoff record if anyone wants him at this point, bynum is about to retire and go full bowling :facepalm

[pegasus]

There's nothing to discuss here. Kobe's cast should be compared to Hakeem's and Dirk's, and Lebron's to the Monstars' in Space Jam.

[magnax1]

The only thing that could have kept the Heat from winning the title in 11 was an epic choke. And that is what happened. It wasn't some flaw in the team...it wasn't lack of depth. It was the best player on the team literally shitting himself on the biggest stage in the basketball world. So when you compare supporting casts...that doesn't matter. Because this is about Lebron's help.
This is true. They had the two best players in the world, they were top 5 in defense, rebounding, and offense (they've been worse in defense and much worse in rebounding every year since) and Wade was playing like the best player in the finals. They lost because of Lebron. Plain and simple. In 2012 it was almost the complete opposite though.

[DMAVS41]

It's called matchups. And they do matter in basketball. Chris Bosh matches up far better with Joakim Noah than he does with Roy Hibbert who has 4 inches, and 70lbs on him. The Pacers are far more capable of punishing Miami in the front court, than that Chicago team could.

But you can believe whatever you want. Not going to go back and fourth on this. Dan LeBatard said Pat Riley privately told him (after James and Bosh agreed to sign with the Heat),"Teams better get us the first year, because that's going to be the worst verison" :oldlol:



He didn't have "less help". First of all the team composition of both the Heat and Lakers are entirely different. The Lakers advantage was quality size in the front court in addition to the talents of Kobe. Ask any coach, and they'll tell you the greatest equalizer in basketball is quality size in the front court.

That's the main reason why people think Indiana will pose issues against Miami, despite Miami having the best player on the court. *shrugs*


No...what it's called is an inept/shell Bosh and an injured Wade. That is what you call it.

Of course you don't want to go back and forth. You'll lose.

How can you sit here and claim 13 was better when Lebron actually played better in the 13 finals and they still should have lost to an inferior team to the 11 Mavs in 6. It took chokes by the Spurs and Ray Allen hitting arguably the biggest shot in NBA history for them to force OT.

It's so absurd. This is why Lebron fans are becoming borderline Kobe stan level. They want to pretend 11 was something other than their hero having the worst finals performance ever by a star player.

The guy literally shit himself in front of the basketball world. If not...the 11 Heat after the 9-8 start would be known as an utter powerhouse team all time and rightfully so.

Seriously...the 11 Heat minus Lebron are murdering the 12 Heat with an injured Bosh and the 13 Heat wouldn't even be competitive. Don't see how they'd win a game...

[red1]

gasol odom and bynum would be handing gatorades in the miami heat, kobe was not only their teammate but their babysitter, these are guys who would have never ever dream of a championship if it weren't for godbe...look at them now, odumb doesnt know shit bout anything in life much less bball, pau could increase his kobeless 0-20 playoff record if anyone wants him at this point, bynum is about to retire and go full bowling :facepalm
:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

This is true. They had the two best players in the world, they were top 5 in defense, rebounding, and offense (they've been worse in defense and much worse in rebounding every year since) and Wade was playing like the best player in the finals. They lost because of Lebron. Plain and simple. In 2012 it was almost the complete opposite though.

Exactly. 12 was the best they were as a total team when Bosh was healthy, so that year is hard to factor in.

[r15mohd]

Sorry, but you are wrong...the 13 Heat in the playoffs don't even get by the 11 Celtics. LOL...

Lebron choked. Wasn't sustainable? It's not sustainable to ask Lebron not to completely choke? Shit, they beat the Bulls in 5...with Wade not even playing all that well to be honest. Not sustainable? They beat the Bulls in 5 with Wade going for 19/6/2 on 41% shooting...rofl. How the **** is that not sustainable.

The only thing that could have kept the Heat from winning the title in 11 was an epic choke. And that is what happened. It wasn't some flaw in the team...it wasn't lack of depth. It was the best player on the team literally shitting himself on the biggest stage in the basketball world. So when you compare supporting casts...that doesn't matter. Because this is about Lebron's help.

Like I said...the 12 team when healthy was clearly the best, but they weren't healthy for enough of the playoffs.

The 11 Heat would have gone 16-4 against the best competition of the Heat era if Lebron doesn't choke. And this is about Lebron's help...not Lebron himself.

11 Wade is being severely under-rated here...

You put that 11 supporting cast up against 12 and 13 without Lebron...and it's not even competitive. Again...Bosh out in 12.

Like...do people realize that Lebron was better in the 13 finals than he was in 11...and the Heat should have still lost in 6 to a Spurs team not as good and certainly not playing nearly as well as the 11 Mavs?

They should have lost game 6 with Parker/Green/Manu shooting a combined 9 of 35...and needed two missed ft's at the end to have a chance.

GTFO with this 13 Heat better than the 11 Heat. You put those two teams minus Lebron against each other and the 11 Heat beat the 13 Heat in 5...likely a sweep.

You are an idiot

[magnax1]

Exactly. 12 was the best they were as a total team when Bosh was healthy, so that year is hard to factor in.
I think for stretches of the regular season 12 was the best, but they had huge problems. For one Battier was god awful and they relied on him way to much for playing time, and Bosh didn't do nearly as much in 12 as 11. He was huge in the ECF against the Bulls. Wade wasn't 2011 Wade either. When he was 100% that was probably the best team though.

[DMAVS41]

You are an idiot…put these two against each other (in any scenario you want to as well) and it’s the complete opposite. All you do is rank the 2011 Heat squad up to try and make your Mavs look like they did the inevitable by beating them. NEWS FLASH: the Mavs didn’t win that series by beating the Heat (and I give great credit to Dirk this series because he played GREAT!) The Heat beat themselves, more so Lebron let them down by going absent, and with that the Mavs were crowned a title.


-2011 without Lebron:
Anthony
Bosh
Miller
Wade
Bibby

Howard
Haslem
Jones
Chalmers

-2013 without Lebron:
Bosh
Birdman/Haslem
Miller/Battier
Wade
Chalmers

Cole
Allen
Haslem/Birdman
Battier/Miller
Jones





You love coming on here and touting the Mavs as some iconic team EVERY SINGLE TIME! Please see above, as my Mavs rant relates to this post of yours too. They, the Mavs, had a good run in 2011, but stop fooling yourself in thinking they’re some powerhouse squad that is invincible…they aren’t beating the 2013 Spurs…much less a 2013 Pacers teams, or even a 2012 Thunder’s squad. The reason they won is because Lebron went absent…that reason, and be it, the only reason they won! Had Lebron put up even his low 2013 Finals stats against them in 2011, they were losing.

and if you think chemistry isn't an intricate part of a teams success...you've never played organized team sports, or I should say, never had much success in playing organized team sports. it's warranted, and it's spanned across every team sport worldwide...in very rare instances do you ever have thrown together teams winning out at inception, only one that comes to mind is the recent Celtics' title.


I love when people make my exact point for me. That is my point! The 11 Heat lost because of Lebron...nothing else.

Chemistry? You mean the chemistry of a team that was elite offensively and defensively....and great rebounding compared to the 13 team. That had gone 49-16 after the 9-8 start...and then blew through the East going 12-3?

Like...do you realize that the 13 Heat were injured and slumping? That Wade was hobbled and Bosh was a shell?

You play that 11 supporting cast in the playoffs against the 13 supporting cast in the playoffs and it's not even a series. It's a joke to compare them. Wade and Bosh in 11 wipe the floor with that team...doesn't even matter the other players.

Seriously...you are a ****ing idiot.

People listing the players as if Wade in 11 vs 13 was even remotely the same. Same deal for Bosh.

It's not about propping up the Mavs at all. It's about proving to Lebron fans that your arguments suck ass.

It wasn't chemistry. It wasn't time. It wasn't lack of depth.

It was Lebron that cost them the title..and what is funny....YOU ****ING AGREE WITH ME. Because you just said as much above.

It's straight up comedy that we have to ignore so much...

[PJR]

No...what it's called is an inept/shell Bosh and an injured Wade. That is what you call it.

Of course you don't want to go back and forth. You'll lose.

How can you sit here and claim 13 was better when Lebron actually played better in the 13 finals and they still should have lost to an inferior team to the 11 Mavs in 6. It took chokes by the Spurs and Ray Allen hitting arguably the biggest shot in NBA history for them to force OT.

It's so absurd. This is why Lebron fans are becoming borderline Kobe stan level. They want to pretend 11 was something other than their hero having the worst finals performance ever by a star player.

The guy literally shit himself in front of the basketball world. If not...the 11 Heat after the 9-8 start would be known as an utter powerhouse team all time and rightfully so.

Seriously...the 11 Heat minus Lebron are murdering the 12 Heat with an injured Bosh and the 13 Heat wouldn't even be competitive. Don't see how they'd win a game...

Lose to you? Please. I forgot more basketball than you ever knew. :oldlol:

I'd be willing to guarantee that you've never played a competitive sport a day in your life. It's pretty obvious. Like I said before, the way you analyze basketball is silly. And you are brainwashed by ESPN.

:oldlol: The pathetic thing about some basketball fans like you is how easily they buy the psychoanalysis crap that's been spoon fed to them. For any knowledgeable basketball fan who understands the strategies of the game, they would never pin an entire series loss on one player "choking", "shying away", etc. Only simpletons buy that nonsense.

And you are a simpleton.

[branslowski]

Lose to you? Please. I forgot more basketball than you ever knew. :oldlol:

I'd be willing to guarantee that you've never played a competitive sport a day in your life. It's pretty obvious. Like I said before, the way you analyze basketball is silly. And you are brainwashed by ESPN.

:oldlol: The pathetic thing about some basketball fans like you is how easily they buy the psychoanalysis crap that's been spoon fed to them. For any knowledgeable basketball fan who understands the strategies of the game, they would never pin an entire series loss on one player "choking", "shying away", etc. Only simpletons buy that nonsense.

And you are a simpleton.

But didn't you just say Heat lost because LeBron was absent?:coleman:

[Mr Exlax]

He didn't have "less help". First of all the team composition of both the Heat and Lakers are entirely different. The Lakers advantage was quality size in the front court in addition to the talents of Kobe. Ask any coach, and they'll tell you the greatest equalizer in basketball is quality size in the front court.

That's the main reason why people think Indiana will pose issues against Miami, despite Miami having the best player on the court. *shrugs*


This is the exact reason why I don't consider this an alltime great team. I value size in the frontcourt. If Bynum was healthy he'd be the second best center in the NBA.

[DMAVS41]

Lose to you? Please. I forgot more basketball than you ever knew. :oldlol:

I'd be willing to guarantee that you've never played a competitive sport a day in your life. It's pretty obvious. Like I said before, the way you analyze basketball is silly. And you are brainwashed by ESPN.

:oldlol: The pathetic thing about some basketball fans like you is how easily they buy the psychoanalysis crap that's been spoon fed to them. For any knowledgeable basketball fan who understands the strategies of the game, they would never pin an entire series loss on one player "choking", "shying away", etc. Only simpletons buy that nonsense.

And you are a simpleton.


You can call it whatever you want. The fact remains that the only way the 11 Heat lose is if Lebron struggles and plays horribly. Which is what he did. We can and should give the Mavs credit for part of that....but the same thing through 5.75 games happened in 13 as well.

And it's about facts.

49-16 coming into the playoffs. 12-3 against the East (two very good teams in Celtics and Bulls)

About to go up 2-0 on Mavs...then what happened? The Mavs exposed some huge flaw in the Heat? No...Lebron choked...and Dirk/Terry went off.

What you are doing is understanding that Lebron had more flaws in his game in 11 than he did in 13. Not many more, but enough to matter.

Here's a hint...Lebron isn't part of the supporting cast. That is what you can't seem to grasp.

Lebron played better in 12 and 13...and even in 13 in the finals he really didn't play a ton better until the end of game 6 and game 7...and that had very little to do with anything other than Lebron himself.

Do you really not realize that if Lebron makes just a few more plays in those close 4th qtrs...you'd be sitting here talking about the 11 Heat as an all time great team with 3 superstars in their prime/peak. Dominating the league after the 9-8 start.

On what ****ing planet does the supposed best player in the world choking...and then choking even more in close games...not the reason a team with prime Wade/Bosh loses? Yea...it's chemistry...:facepalm :facepalm ...but that chemistry didn't impact them over the previous games in which they went 61-19...12-3 in the playoffs

[r15mohd]

I love when people make my exact point for me. That is my point! The 11 Heat lost because of Lebron...nothing else.

Chemistry? You mean the chemistry of a team that was elite offensively and defensively....and great rebounding. That had gone 49-16 after the 9-8 start...and then blew through the East going 12-3?

Like...do you realize that the 13 Heat were injured and slumping? That Wade was hobbled and Bosh was a shell?

You play that 11 supporting cast in the playoffs against the 13 supporting cast in the playoffs and it's not even a series. It's a joke to compare them. Wade and Bosh in 11 wipe the floor with that team...doesn't even matter the other players.

Seriously...you are a ****ing idiot.

People listing the players as if Wade in 11 vs 13 was even remotely the same. Same deal for Bosh.

It's not about propping up the Mavs at all. It's about proving to Lebron fans that your arguments suck ass.

It wasn't chemistry. It wasn't time. It wasn't lack of depth.

It was Lebron that cost them the title..and what is funny....YOU ****ING AGREE WITH ME. Because you just said as much above.

It's straight up comedy that we have to ignore so much...

SMH

[Element]

As for the LeBron vs Kobe debate, here are some stats and my take on the whole thing. Obviously I can further elaborate my stance if anyone wants me to do it.

Kobe from 08-10 playoffs:

29.8 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.6 spg @ 57 TS%

LeBron from 11-13 playoffs:

26.7 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 6.0 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.9 bpg @ 57.5 TS%


Injuries:

- Kobe got his knee drained 6 games into the 2010 first round.
Averages after that: 31.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 5.7 apg, 1.3 spg @ 58.5 TS% through 18 games.

Overall Finals stats for both players:

Kobe:

29.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.4 apg, 2.1 spg @ 53.3 TS%

LeBron:

23.7 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 7.0 apg, 1.7 spg @ 54.1 TS%

Considering level of competition and (as weird as it might sound, though I can certainly prove it) defensive play, I'm taking Kobe while running away was fast as I can. LeBron does have the single best performance of those runs, and arguably the second best as well (Game 6 @ Boston, Game 7 vs Spurs) but after that Kobe has him beat, imo. As far as their personal low points, I'd rather have 6-24 with 15 rebounds and great defense over a single digit scoring game with complete invisibility on either side of the floor in the Finals.

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=r15mohd]SMH

[chazzy]

As for the LeBron vs Kobe debate, here are some stats and my take on the whole thing. Obviously I can further elaborate my stance if anyone wants me to do it.

Kobe from 08-10 playoffs:

29.8 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.6 spg @ 57 TS%

LeBron from 11-13 playoffs:

26.7 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 6.0 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.9 bpg @ 57.5 TS%


Injuries:

- Kobe got his knee drained 6 games into the 2010 first round.
Averages after that: 31.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 5.7 apg, 1.3 spg @ 58.5 TS% through 18 games.

Overall Finals stats for both players:

Kobe:

29.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.4 apg, 2.1 spg @ 53.3 TS%

LeBron:

23.7 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 7.0 apg, 1.7 spg @ 54.1 TS%

Considering level of competition and (as weird as it might sound, though I can certainly prove it) defensive play, I'm taking Kobe while running away was fast as I can. LeBron does have the single best performance of those runs, and arguably the second best as well (Game 6 @ Boston, Game 7 vs Spurs) but after that Kobe has him beat, imo. As far as their personal low points, I'd rather have 6-24 with 15 rebounds and great defense over a single digit scoring game with complete invisibility on either side of the floor in the Finals.
Those numbers are surprising, especially the finals stats.


DMAVS is right. 2013 was the best regular season team and best when healthy. But they were a different team in the playoffs. Wade was doing his best 2000 Kobe finals impression for the playoffs as a whole and Bosh was frequently absent. What's so hard to understand? Look at Wade in 2011 compared to 2013 playoffs. He was sub 50 TS% on 16ppg for the entire run. Good lord

[pegasus]

As for the LeBron vs Kobe debate, here are some stats and my take on the whole thing. Obviously I can further elaborate my stance if anyone wants me to do it.

Kobe from 08-10 playoffs:

29.8 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.6 spg @ 57 TS%

LeBron from 11-13 playoffs:

26.7 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 6.0 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.9 bpg @ 57.5 TS%


Injuries:

- Kobe got his knee drained 6 games into the 2010 first round.
Averages after that: 31.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 5.7 apg, 1.3 spg @ 58.5 TS% through 18 games.

Overall Finals stats for both players:

Kobe:

29.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.4 apg, 2.1 spg @ 53.3 TS%

LeBron:

23.7 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 7.0 apg, 1.7 spg @ 54.1 TS%

Considering level of competition and (as weird as it might sound, though I can certainly prove it) defensive play, I'm taking Kobe while running away was fast as I can. LeBron does have the single best performance of those runs, and arguably the second best as well (Game 6 @ Boston, Game 7 vs Spurs) but after that Kobe has him beat, imo. As far as their personal low points, I'd rather have 6-24 with 15 rebounds and great defense over a single digit scoring game with complete invisibility on either side of the floor in the Finals.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[r15mohd]

Dude. Come on now. The 13 Heat of the streak were not the 13 Heat in the playoffs. You people have lost your minds. Wade was ****ing injured...Bosh was in a terrible slump.

I think the main reason the Mavs beat the Heat was Lebron's play. I think the Mavs deserve credit, but to ignore Lebron's choke would be dishonest. He played passive, was terrible late in games, played horrible defense (something people don't mention), and was a terrible leader.

The problem with the 11 Heat was Lebron. We can nitpick other issues, but that was the main issue. The 13 Heat's problems were literally everything but Lebron...and they still almost lost against an inferior Spurs team...with their players falling apart in the biggest moments of the games.

You put 12 or 13 Lebron on the 11 Heat and they win the title. You put 11 Lebron on the 13 Heat and they lose in 5.

Again...you are agreeing with me. The problem was Lebron...and to a lesser extent his poor matchup against the Mavs.

It isn’t an agreement if my view is different from yours, no matter if I agree with you 99.9% of it…part of my comment taken out to fit your agenda doesn’t mean we agree, it means you are being arbitrary with what you take as “context,”and again, to make it fit your agenda in having the 2011 Mavs title seem as if they beat the 72-10 Bulls team, just wearing a Heat uniform in 2011.

As far as the Heat streak in 2013 not being in the playoffs…I understand that completely, but you were the one using it as a foundation to indicate how good the 2010-2011 Heat were, OVERALL. I only combatted you with like scenarios, in this case, the regular season. The 2010-11 Heat playoff squad was nothing like the regular season squad…just as the 2012-13 Heat regular season squad was nothing like the playoff squad. I’m using your analogy here, not mine…smart guy! :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

I don't know how I'd rank the some of them, but I'd put 11 Heat the best for sure. 13 Heat the worst.

So it would be

11 Heat
10 Lakers
12 Heat
09 Lakers
08 Lakers
13 Heat

Something like that. but the middle could be changed.


08 Lkaers are easily the worst. They had some scrubs starting & playing thanks to Ariza & Bynums injuries

[DMAVS41]

Those numbers are surprising, especially the finals stats.


DMAVS is right. 2013 was the best regular season team and best when healthy. But they were a different team in the playoffs. Wade was doing his best 2000 Kobe finals impression for the playoffs as a whole and Bosh was frequently absent. What's so hard to understand? Look at Wade in 2011 compared to 2013 playoffs. He was sub 50 TS% on 16ppg for the entire run. Good lord


You have to take Kobe over that stretch because he actually gives you 3 chances to win. I think Kobe winning in 13 might be a stretch, but at least possible.

It's impossible to win in 11 with Lebron...that is why 08 to 10 Kobe is better. That one series alone prevents it from being really a debate.

And yes...hopefully you can convince people that the 13 Heat in the playoffs were a completely different team than the one in the regular season..and especially the streak.

Shit...Battier was at like 62% TS in the regular season. And he was at like 48% TS in the playoffs iirc. The whole team was slumping...

[DMAVS41]

08 Lkaers are easily the worst. They had some scrubs starting & playing thanks to Ariza & Bynums injuries

I think it's debatable...but that really doesn't matter much. The are the two clear worst teams in my opinion.

[r15mohd]

You have to take Kobe over that stretch because he actually gives you 3 chances to win. I think Kobe winning in 13 might be a stretch, but at least possible.

It's impossible to win in 11 with Lebron...that is why 08 to 10 Kobe is better. That one series alone prevents it from being really a debate.

And yes...hopefully you can convince people that the 13 Heat in the playoffs were a completely different team than the one in the regular season..and especially the streak.

Shit...Battier was at like 62% TS in the regular season. And he was at like 48% TS in the playoffs iirc. The whole team was slumping...

yet idiots on here claim a Bosh rebound and an Allen 3 was the reason for the Heat title against the Spurs...not you, unless you claim that too :coleman:

[SewerUrchin]

Some basic stats compiled from http://www.basketball-reference.com/ comparing the Heat playoff runs of the past 3 years, and then breaking out the contributions of the rest of the team from the big 3.

Sorry it doesn't include steals, blocks, rebounds or other defense-related stats... I didn't have all day to do this. :lol

Anyway, don't know if it will settle any arguments or only add further fuel to the fire, but it looks to me (statistically, as well as from the eye test) that the team beyond the big 3 has been steadily improving from one year to the next. And it's pretty obvious that the 2013 Heat team outside of the big 3 performs significantly better (on offense anyway) than the 2011 team.

2011 Heat Playoffs ====================
76ers PTS FG FGA FG%
Lebron: 121 38 81 .469
Wade: 111 39 89 .438
Bosh: 99 37 77 .481
Others: 139 49 136 .360

Celtics PTS FG FGA FG%
Lebron: 140 51 108 .472
Wade: 151 51 97 .526
Bosh: 64 21 52 .404
Others: 122 41 107 .383

Bulls PTS FG FGA FG%
Lebron: 129 42 94 .447
Wade: 94 32 79 .405
Bosh: 116 42 70 .600
Others: 108 40 101 .396

Mavs PTS FG FGA FG%
Lebron: 107 43 90 .478
Wade: 159 59 108 .546
Bosh: 111 38 92 .413
Others: 177 62 158 .392


2012 Heat Playoffs ====================
Knicks PTS FG FGA FG%
Lebron: 139 43 90 .478
Wade: 105 43 85 .506
Bosh: 75 25 49 .510
Others: 165 54 138 .391

Pacers PTS FG FGA FG%
Lebron: 180 70 139 .504
Wade: 157 58 123 .472
Bosh*: 13 6 11 .545
Others: 216 77 190 .405

Celtics PTS FG FGA FG%
Lebron: 235 87 165 .527
Wade: 150 56 126 .444
Bosh*: 35 14 26 .538
Others: 259 93 223 .417

Thunder PTS FG FGA FG%
Lebron: 143 51 108 .472
Wade: 113 40 92 .435
Bosh: 73 28 62 .452
Others: 181 59 122 .484


2013 Heat Playoffs ====================
Bucks PTS FG FGA FG%
Lebron: 98 37 59 .627
Wade*: 41 14 38 .368
Bosh: 51 21 39 .538
Others: 210 76 162 .469

Bulls PTS FG FGA FG%
Lebron: 118 35 80 .438
Wade: 63 29 57 .509
Bosh: 68 27 54 .500
Others: 238 82 165 .497

Pacers PTS FG FGA FG%
Lebron: 203 73 143 .510
Wade: 108 41 94 .436
Bosh: 77 26 69 .377
Others: 280 101 231 .437

Spurs PTS FG FGA FG%
Lebron: 177 67 150 .447
Wade: 137 60 126 .476
Bosh: 83 36 78 .462
Others: 282 99 217 .456

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=r15mohd]It isn

[Element]

yet idiots on here claim a Bosh rebound and an Allen 3 was the reason for the Heat title against the Spurs...not you, unless you claim that too :coleman:

Thing is, LeBron himself was underwhelming as well. He put up great stats against the sub-40 win Bucks, big deal. Got shut down by Jimmy Buckets and the Bulls and Round 2 and was forced to pass way more. He DID light up Paul George, though. Wade and Bosh sucked dick throughout the series and guys like Haslem were his 2nd best players at times. I'll give him credit for that. Again really underwhelming against the Spurs, though, unless 2 games and a quarter somehow makes it a legendary performance or whatever.

[r15mohd]

Thing is, LeBron himself was underwhelming as well. He put up great stats against the sub-40 win Bucks, big deal. Got shut down by Jimmy Buckets and the Bulls and Round 2 and was forced to pass way more. He DID light up Paul George, though. Wade and Bosh sucked dick throughout the series and guys like Haslem were his 2nd best players at times. I'll give him credit for that. Again really underwhelming against the Spurs, though, unless 2 games and a quarter somehow makes it a legendary performance or whatever.


he gets three games by me because he contributed plentiful to Wade's final appearance in game 2 or 4,cant rmbr...then games 6 and 7, Lebron went MVP mode.

only other player to have a consistent series more than Lebron (and his was inconsistent) in the Finals was probably Duncan

[Element]

he gets three games by me because he contributed plentiful to Wade's final appearance in game 2 or 4,cant rmbr...then games 6 and 7, Lebron went MVP mode.

only other player to have a consistent series more than Lebron (and his was inconsistent) in the Finals was probably Duncan

It was Game 4. He had a very good game, but the Big 3 as a whole scored 90+ iirc and LeBron got like 9 straight points in garbage time on uncontested shots with all starters out in the 4th quarter (after Wade had put up the Heat +15 and left the game for good). He had a better stat line than D-Wade but even Breen and Van Gundy mentioned that Wade was the clear cut catalyst for the Heat that night.

I actually counted that game. When I said 2 games and a quarter, I meant Games 4 and 7, as well as the 4th of Game 6.

[Solefade]

people are actually saying 2011 is the best of all the heat teams since lebron era? :lol

anyone who says that greatly underrates team chemistry, 2011 heat was still a work in progress while 2012/2013 heat were a more finished and better product.

Even though Dirk has one of the all time great finals performances, the competition in 2011 finals < 2012 thunder and 2013 spurs. Heat shoulda clearly won in 2011 if LeBron's head was on right.

[DMAVS41]

people are actually saying 2011 is the best of all the heat teams since lebron era? :lol

anyone who says that greatly underrates team chemistry, 2011 heat was still a work in progress while 2012/2013 heat were a more finished and better product.

Even though Dirk has one of the all time great finals performances, the competition in 2011 finals < 2012 thunder and 2013 spurs. Heat shoulda clearly won in 2011 if LeBron's head was on right.

You realize you shoot yourself in the foot with the bold...right? I swear it's straight comedy on here...

"Heat should have won if not for Lebron's head"

LOL...no shit...that's the point.

The 2011 Heat had an elite offense, an elite defense, and were actually pretty good on the glass. They went 49-16 after the 9-8 start (where chemistry actually was an issue)...then went 12-3 in the Eastern playoffs...including 8-2 combined against 2 very good teams in the Bull/Celtics. Then won game 1 against the Mavs and were up 15 in the 4th qtr until the Lebron meltdown happened. Even with the Lebron meltdown...the Heat still could have won with just a few more plays.

That team was clearly better than the 13 team and clearly better than the 12 team when they were missing Bosh. With Bosh? The 12 team was the best...everyone pretty much agrees with that.

You play that 11 supporting cast against the 13 supporting cast and it's not even competitive...I can't believe people are debating this.

[Suguru101]

Sorry, but you are wrong...the 13 Heat in the playoffs don't even get by the 11 Celtics. LOL...

Lebron choked. Wasn't sustainable? It's not sustainable to ask Lebron not to completely choke? Shit, they beat the Bulls in 5...with Wade not even playing all that well to be honest. Not sustainable? They beat the Bulls in 5 with Wade going for 19/6/2 on 41% shooting...rofl. How the **** is that not sustainable.

The only thing that could have kept the Heat from winning the title in 11 was an epic choke. And that is what happened. It wasn't some flaw in the team...it wasn't lack of depth. It was the best player on the team literally shitting himself on the biggest stage in the basketball world. So when you compare supporting casts...that doesn't matter. Because this is about Lebron's help.

Like I said...the 12 team when healthy was clearly the best, but they weren't healthy for enough of the playoffs.

The 11 Heat would have gone 16-4 against the best competition of the Heat era if Lebron doesn't choke. And this is about Lebron's help...not Lebron himself.

11 Wade is being severely under-rated here...

You put that 11 supporting cast up against 12 and 13 without Lebron...and it's not even competitive. Again...Bosh out in 12.

Like...do people realize that Lebron was better in the 13 finals than he was in 11...and the Heat should have still lost in 6 to a Spurs team not as good and certainly not playing nearly as well as the 11 Mavs?

They should have lost game 6 with Parker/Green/Manu shooting a combined 9 of 35...and needed two missed ft's at the end to have a chance.

GTFO with this 13 Heat better than the 11 Heat. You put those two teams minus Lebron against each other and the 11 Heat beat the 13 Heat in 5...likely a sweep.

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:


:facepalm

[K Xerxes]

DMAVS41 is just a terrible poster.

[DMAVS41]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:


:facepalm

Really?

26/10/2 54% TS Dirk...and super clutch play
18/2/3 61% TS Terry...and super clutch play

Then guys like Kidd, Marion, Chandler, Barea, and Stevenson all coming through in key moments.

18/12/1 55% TS Duncan...
16/2/6 47% TS Parker...awful in the two biggest games

Leonard played great (so was Marion though), and Green did at times...although he completely choked the last 2 games.

Manu sucked at the end to.

The Mavs were clearly the better team and clearly playing better.

How it's even debatable is beyond me...

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS41 is just a terrible poster.

Ad hominem...how you know you are winning.

:cheers:

[Solefade]

[/B]

You realize you shoot yourself in the foot with the bold...right? I swear it's straight comedy on here...

"Heat should have won if not for Lebron's head"

LOL...no shit...that's the point.

The 2011 Heat had an elite offense, an elite defense, and were actually pretty good on the glass. They went 49-16 after the 9-8 start (where chemistry actually was an issue)...then went 12-3 in the Eastern playoffs...including 8-2 combined against 2 very good teams in the Bull/Celtics. Then won game 1 against the Mavs and were up 15 in the 4th qtr until the Lebron meltdown happened. Even with the Lebron meltdown...the Heat still could have won with just a few more plays.

That team was clearly better than the 13 team and clearly better than the 12 team when they were missing Bosh. With Bosh? The 12 team was the best...everyone pretty much agrees with that.

You play that 11 supporting cast against the 13 supporting cast and it's not even competitive...I can't believe people are debating this.

how is that shooting myself in the foot? i'm making an objective point. just because they were heavy favorites in 2011 doesn't mean that team is better than 2012 and 2013 because they weren't heavy favorites in those years. What I said in bold just points out how weak the competition was, what does that have to do with 2011 team being the best?

the big thing you always seem to be missing in your posts ITT is that you heavily underrate chemistry and there was a dramatic improvement in that in 2012 and 2013, how is 1-2 extra years of playing together and having better role players (aside from wade's health) make a team crappier than the previous year?

[DMAVS41]

how is that shooting myself in the foot? i'm making an objective point. just because they were heavy favorites in 2011 doesn't mean that team is better than 2012 and 2013 because they weren't heavy favorites in those years.

the big thing you always seem to be missing in your posts ITT is that you heavily underrate chemistry and there was a dramatic improvement in that in 2012 and 2013.

But you are looking at the regular season in 13...not the playoffs. Wade was hobbled and Bosh was a shell.

You can't just ignore that.

And again...what chemistry issues by the time of the 11 playoffs? They had gone 49-16 after the 9-8 start. Finished with the 3rd best offense, 5th best defense, and a top 10 rebounding team. Then went 13-3 in the playoffs before the Lebron choke.

What issues? Other than having a team that was so good that even Wade playing well below his level in the ECF...still won in 5?

Where are these issues? They seem to only show up when Lebron had the worst finals in NBA history for a star player....

When will you people get it? The 13 Heat in the playoffs was a completely different team than the healthy regular season team. Wade was injured, Bosh was a shell, Battier was in a terrible shooting slump...jesus man

[r15mohd]

how is that shooting myself in the foot? i'm making an objective point. just because they were heavy favorites in 2011 doesn't mean that team is better than 2012 and 2013 because they weren't heavy favorites in those years.

the big thing you always seem to be missing in your posts ITT is that you heavily underrate chemistry and there was a dramatic improvement in that in 2012 and 2013.


he does this so it makes the Mavs look like some Godly team for him, you'll notice he is the ONLY one who debates this over and over and over again :facepalm

in the end the Mavs didn't "win" the title, Lebron lost the Heat that chance at a ring. that's why the Mavs have hardware to show for it...I'm reluctant to give them credit to them knowing they weren't really playing any spectacular D through that playoff run that would indicate a star like Lebron was "shut down". the WCF that year is factual to this...KD, Westbrook and Harden ran with their averages against the Mavs, the Mavs just out performed them offensively to get to the finals off of Dirks 4th qtr heroics.

[DMAVS41]

he does this so it makes the Mavs look like some Godly team for him, you'll notice he is the ONLY one who debates this over and over and over again :facepalm

in the end the Mavs didn't "win" the title, Lebron lost the Heat that chance at a ring. that's why the Mavs have hardware to show for it...I'm reluctant to give them credit to them knowing they weren't really playing any spectacular D through that playoff run that would indicate a star like Lebron was "shut down". the WCF that year is factual to this...KD, Westbrook and Harden ran with their averages against the Mavs, the Mavs just out performed them offensively to get to the finals off of Dirks 4th qtr heroics.

Actually my line, as I explained before, takes away credit from my Mavs. Not the opposite.

So that argument falls flat against me.

It's called just being honest and objective. The Mavs of course deserve credit, but to blame Lebron's play on bad chemistry and vault the Mavs defense to all time great status is absurd.

[Solefade]

But you are looking at the regular season in 13...not the playoffs. Wade was hobbled and Bosh was a shell.

You can't just ignore that.

And again...what chemistry issues by the time of the 11 playoffs? They had gone 49-16 after the 9-8 start. Finished with the 3rd best offense, 5th best defense, and a top 10 rebounding team. Then went 13-3 in the playoffs before the Lebron choke.

What issues? Other than having a team that was so good that even Wade playing well below his level in the ECF...still won in 5?

Where are these issues? They seem to only show up when Lebron had the worst finals in NBA history for a star player....

When will you people get it? The 13 Heat in the playoffs was a completely different team than the healthy regular season team. Wade was injured, Bosh was a shell, Battier was in a terrible shooting slump...jesus man

you have good points here but what i was trying to say was 2012 and 2013 would have been obviously better teams than 2011 with a healthy wade.

[DMAVS41]

you have good points here but what i was trying to say was 2012 and 2013 would have been obviously better teams than 2011 with a healthy wade.

well of course. if the 12/13 Heat were perfectly healthy and Bosh was playing normal they'd be better...

but that isn't what happened.

[knicksman]

bosh>>>>gasol