Add Lin to your/most nba team, would they improve? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

VIntageNOvel

01-01-2014, 12:51 PM

lin was so overrated that now he is become underrated,
i read in this thread that his defense somehow become good to great

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320882&page=2

You're retarded.

Here's Parker's last 4 games:

23 pts
26 pts
6 pts (against Lin)
23 pts

Here's Holiday's last 4:

13 pts
17 pts
17 pts
3 pts (against Lin)

Never really liked Lin but his D on Isaiah Thomas who has been on tear was impressive today kept Thomas to 6/17 and made him airball like 3-4 times.

i never understand the hate, but he was above average/solid player

dude can shoot 3 well, can drive and finish, decent passer too
the problem with lin is always the turn over (anyone can tell me how his TOV lately?),

now he become great defender, does it mean he > rubio?
would your team improve with the addition of lin?

:cheers:

niko

01-01-2014, 01:07 PM

As a Knick fan our PG's defense is poor to ultra poor. So if you are arguing Lin is average to slightly below average, then yes, he would improve us.

Basically, is the PG alive? Then he improves us.

I<3NBA

01-01-2014, 01:10 PM

Lakers and Knicks definitely.

Brujesino

01-01-2014, 01:34 PM

Yes he could come off the bench for the warriors and score a little bit.

PotOdds

01-01-2014, 02:39 PM

It depends on the teams' needs. Watched most of Lin's games. He's definitely a scorer. A high percentage at that. But that wasn't worth as much to Houston since they are now loaded with scorers.

Which is why Beverley took the starting job. Bev had a hot shooting pre-season plus displayed great defensive prowess. Since then, regular season reality has taken hold. Bev isn't much of a scorer. And his defensive tenacity hasn't been as much a game changer since teams are more wary of him. I don't think the coaches make Bev a starter if they had foresight up to this point.

As for Lin, he's definitely capable of 50% fg, shown that throughout his career. One of the best, scoring in the paint. What seems to have been overblown is his 3pt shooting. He was hot in the beginning of the year but seems to regress recently. The high arcing shot is back. Earlier in the season, he shot 9 of 15 3s in a game. The shot then was much smoother.

So his strengths are his driving and high percentage scoring. He hasn't proven that he has great playmaking ability. He has decent playmaking ability but sometimes he brings the ball up and just gives it up to Harden or whoever. Great playmaking ability requires breaking down the defense, causing chaos so that you can find the open man. He will drive into paint sometimes and have nowhere to go, so he will give up but thus giving the receiver a tough shot with little time on the shot clock.

Godzuki

01-01-2014, 02:55 PM

yes. Lin is surprisingly good, and can play with other chuckers which a lot of chucker stars can't. he's like a star role player.

Pra

01-01-2014, 04:09 PM

It would be interesting to see him on the Pacers running the pick & roll w/ Hibbert.

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 04:13 PM

posters always take a few good games from Lin and get all worked up.

niko

01-01-2014, 04:51 PM

It would be interesting to see him on the Pacers running the pick & roll w/ Hibbert.
Yes that's what the Pacers need, a ball dominant pg who isn't as good as any of their other starters.

KungFuJoe

01-01-2014, 05:06 PM

posters always take a few good games from Lin and get all worked up.

He's been pretty damn solid all season even though hurt with injuries.

Remember he plays with the biggest cancer in the nba (Haren) and dumping it down low to Howard doesn't result in a lot of assists because Howard takes a full minute and twenty dribbles to make a move.

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 06:10 PM

He's been pretty damn solid all season even though hurt with injuries.

Remember he plays with the biggest cancer in the nba (Haren) and dumping it down low to Howard doesn't result in a lot of assists because Howard takes a full minute and twenty dribbles to make a move.

Did I say he sucked? No. I said when he has a couple of good games people go overboard and start talking like he is an elite player.

Harden is a much better player than Lin. I don't see how you say players like Harden and Howard who are clearly a cut above Lin are bringing him down somehow.

Lin needs to learn how to play the point guard position better and work on his left hand and his consistency. Every NBA starter has a few good games. To be considered a top player you have to string together good seasons.

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 06:13 PM

I get most of my negs for critiquing Lin:oldlol:

It's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not trolling or being disrespectful yet my opinion gets some people all riled up.

EnoughSaid

01-01-2014, 06:20 PM

To Miami? I don't know how well he'd fit in. Chalmers is a better shooter, and Cole is great at effort and ball handling. We wouldn't gain anything by adding Lin.

The Knicks could use him though. How ironic is that. :lol

j3lademaster

01-01-2014, 06:20 PM

Did I say he sucked? No. I said when he has a couple of good games people go overboard and start talking like he is an elite player.

Harden is a much better player than Lin. I don't see how you say players like Harden and Howard who are clearly a cut above Lin are bringing him down somehow.

Lin needs to learn how to play the point guard position better and work on his left hand and his consistency. Every NBA starter has a few good games. To be considered a top player you have to string together good seasons.This. The morons in this thread need to stop comparing Lin to prime Magic and saying he's better than Howard and Harden. Oh wait, no one said that in here....

redhonda76

01-01-2014, 07:01 PM

Knicks - yes. The Knicks does not have anyone in their roster who can penetrate and break down the defense. To make matters worse, our PGs situation suck balls big time. Every Knick fans now knows they missed Lin.

KungFuJoe

01-01-2014, 07:29 PM

This. The morons in this thread need to stop comparing Lin to prime Magic and saying he's better than Howard and Harden. Oh wait, no one said that in here....

:biggums:

Find ONE person in this thread who even IMPLIED Lin was an elite player.

Strawmen are running rampant around here.

moe94

01-01-2014, 07:39 PM

:biggums:

Find ONE person in this thread who even IMPLIED Lin was an elite player.

Strawmen are running rampant around here.

He's mocking that idea...:facepalm

KungFuJoe

01-01-2014, 07:55 PM

He's mocking that idea...:facepalm

I quoted the wrong post. Meant to reply to Go Getter's post:

"Did I say he sucked? No. I said when he has a couple of good games people go overboard and start talking like he is an elite player.

Harden is a much better player than Lin. I don't see how you say players like Harden and Howard who are clearly a cut above Lin are bringing him down somehow.

Lin needs to learn how to play the point guard position better and work on his left hand and his consistency. Every NBA starter has a few good games. To be considered a top player you have to string together good seasons."

No one said he was elite...no one said he was a top player.

moe94

01-01-2014, 07:57 PM

No one said he was elite...no one said he was a top player.

You're not allowed to discuss players that cannot be considered top players. What's wrong with you? Even discussing anyone outside Durant/LeBron is considered somewhat taboo. :coleman:

KungFuJoe

01-01-2014, 08:03 PM

You're not allowed to discuss players that cannot be considered top players. What's wrong with you? Even discussing anyone outside Durant/LeBron is considered somewhat taboo. :coleman:

I'm not sure if we're on the same page.

Whoever started this thread simply asked, "Does Lin make your team better?". Niko said that ANYONE would be better than Felton (hard to disagree)...someone said he would be "interesting" on the Pacers. One guy said he was surprisingly good. That's it. Then Go Getter comes in with "People get all worked up cuz he had a few good games" and "Lin is not elite, Harden is better" and I'm like WTF who even said anything remotely like that.

Thus the strawman.

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 08:06 PM

lin was so overrated that now he is become underrated,
i read in this thread that his defense somehow become good to great

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320882&page=2

i never understand the hate, but he was above average/solid player

dude can shoot 3 well, can drive and finish, decent passer too
the problem with lin is always the turn over (anyone can tell me how his TOV lately?),

now he become great defender, does it mean he > rubio?
would your team improve with the addition of lin?

:cheers:

Saying a player is a GREAT defender at the point guard position due to a few games? That's what I's talking about. I'm not ready to go there...no disrespect to those that do.

moe94

01-01-2014, 08:07 PM

I know what you're saying and I agree completely. I was just making a joke.

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 08:07 PM

This. The morons in this thread need to stop comparing Lin to prime Magic and saying he's better than Howard and Harden. Oh wait, no one said that in here....

The next post is what I was referring to. Saying Harden is a cancer and how passing the ball to Howard is restricting his assist totals as if Lin is being held back by playing with them. Having Dwight Howard protecting the rim is one of the biggest assets a PG can have defensively.

And while I agree Lin is a solid PG, he still can't run the pick and roll better than Harden...true or false?

He's been pretty damn solid all season even though hurt with injuries.

Remember he plays with the biggest cancer in the nba (Haren) and dumping it down low to Howard doesn't result in a lot of assists because Howard takes a full minute and twenty dribbles to make a move.

moe94

01-01-2014, 08:09 PM

People hate Harden so much they call him a cancer, when he's among the greatest individual assets to any team in the league.

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 08:09 PM

I know what you're saying and I agree completely. I was just making a joke.
I discuss payers that aren't top players all the time I just made a thread about Chuck Persons but I'm not in there calling him a great SF and pumping him up for a few games.

moe94

01-01-2014, 08:15 PM

I discuss payers that aren't top players all the time I just made a thread about Chuck Persons but I'm not in there calling him a great SF and pumping him up for a few games.

People overtly upset. It wasn't that big of a deal.

KungFuJoe

01-01-2014, 08:17 PM

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 08:22 PM

I never said Lin was great. I think he's good. There's potential, but he needs to develop better handles...that's his biggest weakness.

Have you guys been watching Rockets games? I've watched nearly every single game this season and pretty much all last season as well.

Harden IS a cancer. I don't care how he fills a stat sheet. He is talented as hell...one of the top in the league in terms of talent. But he's a ball stopping chucker. And he plays NO defense and it's impossible to hide that fact anymore. Even commentators are starting to pick up on it. Against Sacramento last night he got LIT up by Thornton. Commentators were basically saying that Harden is going to have to start playing D at some point. He's just lazy as **** out there on D. Scored 38 but blew the game at the end with turnovers and trying to force the issue.

Houston is 4-2 WITHOUT Harden.
James Harden is a better basketball player than Jeremy Lin. I don't know how you could argue that. Just like you didn't give up on Lin after bad games when he was getting taken to school by Chalmers and Cole or when he was shooting up airballs and turning it over, you don't give up on Harden.

He's a player that thrives with the ball in his hands but the thing is the coach would put the ball in a superior PG's hands so he could play off the ball more. That's not Harden's fault, that's Lin's fault for not being a better ball handler at the PG position.

Every player gets schooled once in awhile and costs his team the game brother.

moe94

01-01-2014, 08:27 PM

James Harden is a better basketball player than Jeremy Lin. I don't know how you could argue that..

He never once argued this. In fact, he flat out said he believes Harden is among the most talented and best players in the league. He just believes he's also a cancer.

KungFuJoe

01-01-2014, 08:27 PM

Scholar

01-01-2014, 08:30 PM

Well, Lakers could use a PG right now.
Even a sack of potatoes would be better than nothing.

gyu

01-01-2014, 08:45 PM

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 08:49 PM

He never once argued this. In fact, he flat out said he believes Harden is among the most talented and best players in the league. He just believes he's also a cancer.
Calling someone a ball hogging chucker who plays no defense after calling him one of the most talented guys in the league puts him in the same category as guys like JR Smith and Nick Young.

Harden is one of the best SGs in the league and if Lin was a better pure PG he wouldn't have to handle the ball as much.

If Lin knew how to throw lobs and run the pick and roll better he could average many more assists with weapons like Dwight, Harden, and Parsons.

gyu

01-01-2014, 08:51 PM

James Harden is a better basketball player than Jeremy Lin. I don't know how you could argue that. Just like you didn't give up on Lin after bad games when he was getting taken to school by Chalmers and Cole or when he was shooting up airballs and turning it over, you don't give up on Harden.

He's a player that thrives with the ball in his hands but the thing is the coach would put the ball in a superior PG's hands so he could play off the ball more. That's not Harden's fault, that's Lin's fault for not being a better ball handler at the PG position.

Every player gets schooled once in awhile and costs his team the game brother.
In terms of play making Jeremy is better than Harden. You criticize Lin for his turnovers and say it's largely because of Dwight that these opposing PG's have bad games but Harden turns the ball over way more (assist/turnover ratio is pretty much 1:1) and Harden's man pretty much always goes off. How come Dwight can stop Lin's guy but can't stop Harden's guy from going off?

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 08:55 PM

GoGetter,

I'm not saying Lin is a better basketball player than Harden. In terms of talent and skill, Harden is one of the best in the entire league.

I don't even know why you're bringing this up...I'm not comparing Lin to Harden...or Lin to ANYONE.

I'm saying two separate things.

Lin is a good player.

Harden is a cancer.

The two are not related.
Harden is not a cancer. Define what a cancer is because right now all I see is you spewing cliches. Harden brings more positive things to a team in the overall scheme of things than Jeremy Lin does. 30 out of 30 teams pick Harden over Lin.

Wait, maybe I am missing something. How does Harden slowly alter the framework of a team ultimately leading to it's demise?

KungFuJoe

01-01-2014, 08:56 PM

Calling someone a ball hogging chucker who plays no defense after calling him one of the most talented guys in the league puts him in the same category as guys like JR Smith and Nick Young.

Harden is one of the best SGs in the league and if Lin was a better pure PG he wouldn't have to handle the ball as much.

If Lin knew how to throw lobs and run the pick and roll better he could average many more assists with weapons like Dwight, Harden, and Parsons.

Lin does know how to throw lobs. That was pretty much all he did with Tyson Chandler. Even Fields got some love. And Lin is a very good PnR pg. That's all he ran during Linsanity. It just so happens that Howard SUCKS at the PnR. He is horrible. And I like Howard, but all he can really do is post up on offense.

No offense, but it sounds like you haven't watched much of Harden nor Howard and are just going based on stats.

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 08:59 PM

In terms of play making Jeremy is better than Harden. You criticize Lin for his turnovers and say it's largely because of Dwight that these opposing PG's have bad games but Harden turns the ball over way more (assist/turnover ratio is pretty much 1:1) and Harden's man pretty much always goes off. How come Dwight can stop Lin's guy but can't stop Harden's guy from going off?

He helps both guys of course. And I'm not defending shoddy defense from Harden. From what I have heard, in the PICK and ROLL, Harden is among the best in the league. Am I mistaken? Ball handling is Lin's weakness. Is it not?

So it would stand to logic that if Lin improved his ball handling he could get the ball out of Harden's hands more, limit his [JH] turnovers, and allow him to concentrate on other things.

KungFuJoe

01-01-2014, 09:00 PM

Harden is not a cancer. Define what a cancer is because right now all I see is you spewing cliches. Harden brings more positive things to a team in the overall scheme of things than Jeremy Lin does. 30 out of 30 teams pick Harden over Lin.

Wait, maybe I am missing something. How does Harden slowly alter the framework of a team ultimately leading to it's demise?

He's a cancer because he negatively impacts the team. He gets his points not in the flow of the game, but by ball hogging and taking away touches from other guys ESPECIALLY Howard. And his guy almost always has a career night against him, so that also negates his positive impact. He is also very turnover prone...led the league in TOs last year and I believe he's still among the league leaders this year.

The last game against Sacramento was a microcosm. He scored 38, but ignored Howard in the end, and cost the game the end by forcing the issue, taking ill advised threes early in the shot clock, then committed two bad turnovers at the end sealing the Rockets' fate.

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 09:01 PM

Lin does know how to throw lobs. That was pretty much all he did with Tyson Chandler. Even Fields got some love. And Lin is a very good PnR pg. That's all he ran during Linsanity. It just so happens that Howard SUCKS at the PnR. He is horrible. And I like Howard, but all he can really do is post up on offense.

No offense, but it sounds like you haven't watched much of Harden nor Howard and are just going based on stats.
I'm not basing it on stats, I'm basing it on the fact that you argued that Howard doesn't help Lin get assists and Harden is a cancer.

I argue that it is the point guard's job to meld the team together and be the type of PG the team needs whether it be scoring, passing, pressuring the ball handlers, etc.

All I see is you deflecting what I say before you try to understand it.

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 09:03 PM

He's a cancer because he negatively impacts the team. He gets his points not in the flow of the game, but by ball hogging and taking away touches from other guys ESPECIALLY Howard. And his guy almost always has a career night against him, so that also negates his positive impact. He is also very turnover prone...led the league in TOs last year and I believe he's still among the league leaders this year.

The last game against Sacramento was a microcosm. He scored 38, but ignored Howard in the end, and cost the game the end by forcing the issue, taking ill advised threes early in the shot clock, then committed two bad turnovers at the end sealing the Rockets' fate.

A player that negatively impacts the team and ball hogs is a bad player. You're calling James Harden a bad player here. I disagree, so I guess this is where we'll end this. Nice choppin' it up with you though.

moe94

01-01-2014, 09:06 PM

In terms of play making Jeremy is better than Harden.
https://p.gr-assets.com/540x540/fit/hostedimages/1380222758/569683.gif

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 09:08 PM

Oh and to answer the OP, yes, I do think Lin would improve the Bulls.:D

gyu

01-01-2014, 09:12 PM

He helps both guys of course. And I'm not defending shoddy defense from Harden. From what I have heard, in the PICK and ROLL, Harden is among the best in the league. Am I mistaken? Ball handling is Lin's weakness. Is it not?

So it would stand to logic that if Lin improved his ball handling he could get the ball out of Harden's hands more, limit his [JH] turnovers, and allow him to concentrate on other things.
If he helps both guys then you should give Lin some credit for his improved defense.
If you're strictly looking at pick and roll, Harden is also better than CP3 but that doesn't mean he's a better play maker or ball handler. His success in the pick and roll isn't him feeding the roller, but him driving to the basket or stepping back for an open 3. The reason he has the ball in his hands so much is because he knows how to score better than anyone else (see Melo). Harden doesn't play off the ball well.

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 09:19 PM

If he helps both guys then you should give Lin some credit for his improved defense.
If you're strictly looking at pick and roll, Harden is also better than CP3 but that doesn't mean he's a better play maker or ball handler. His success in the pick and roll isn't him feeding the roller, but him driving to the basket or stepping back for an open 3. The reason he has the ball in his hands so much is because he knows how to score better than anyone else (see Melo). Harden doesn't play off the ball well.

A few games doesn't signify improved defense. Seems like you guys are pointing out all of Harden's flaws while glossing over Lin's. It's just like in NY where Melo was holding him back, smh.

gyu

01-01-2014, 09:23 PM

redhonda76

01-01-2014, 09:25 PM

I remember the good ol days when Felton >>> Lin especially when factoring in the contracts

Yeah, but the problem is that Felton had already reached his potential and you know what he can give you. Lin is an unknown with many untapped potentials plus he was the only Knick play that can penetrate and got his team involved. Now the Knicks, without a pg that can penetrate and break down the defense. The whole Knicks offense is stagnant and almost zero ball movement.

Thank you James Dolan for screwing up my Knicks. It's why Donnie Walsh left. You should just let the people you hired do their job and stay out of this.

KungFuJoe

01-01-2014, 09:27 PM

A few games doesn't signify improved defense. Seems like you guys are pointing out all of Harden's flaws while glossing over Lin's. It's just like in NY where Melo was holding him back, smh.

It's not just a few games...he's been improved in ALL areas the entire season. I don't think you'll find many people who disagree.

As for pointing out Harden's flaws and glossing over Lin's...there's a HUGE difference between something like better handles (something that is not from lack of trying) to just plain not playing any defense. And it's not like Harden is just below average, or even just bad at defense. He's atrocious. He might be the worst backcourt defender in the entire league.

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 09:28 PM

Seems like you're doing the same with Harden. Smh.

He is a ball dominant player
He can hurt a team when he presses and his shot is off
He lacks defensive intensity
For an athletic player, needs to disrupt passing lanes more
Not the best rebounder at the 2
Really needs to limit turnovers

The guy said Harden NEGATIVELY impacts a team and is a ball hog who stuck no d....that is the definition of a bad player. I said Lin would help my Bulls. What thread are you reading homie?

Go Getter

01-01-2014, 09:28 PM

It's not just a few games...he's been improved in ALL areas the entire season. I don't think you'll find many people who disagree.

As for pointing out Harden's flaws and glossing over Lin's...there's a HUGE difference between something like better handles (something that is not from lack of trying) to just plain not playing any defense. And it's not like Harden is just below average, or even just bad at defense. He's atrocious. He might be the worst backcourt defender in the entire league.
:facepalm

KungFuJoe

01-01-2014, 09:35 PM

I think Harden DOES negatively impact a team. Look, I know the object of the game is to score more points than the other team. So, obviously, a guy that can score a bunch of points...he's gonna get more of a "pass" for not playing defense as much as a role player would.

But, has Harden really helped this team much? Unless I'm mistaken, the Rockets were the 9th seed the season before Harden joined. Last year, they were the 8th seed and a first round exit. This season, they got Howard and TJones has emerged as a very good player. Yet, the Rockets are currently the 6th seed and ONLY one game away from the 8th spot. And they are playing pretty badly as of late.

They are 4-2 without Harden this season.

Take away Harden and NO, the Rockets aren't better. But replace Harden with a 15/5 type SG who plays defense and gets Howard touches? Yes, I think Houston becomes a LOT better.

And again...I saw nearly every single Rockets game last season and this so I'm definitely not basing what I say on stats or a few games.

KungFuJoe

01-01-2014, 09:37 PM

:facepalm

Nice counterpoints. Will consider.

gyu

01-01-2014, 09:49 PM

He is a ball dominant player
He can hurt a team when he presses and his shot is off
He lacks defensive intensity
For an athletic player, needs to disrupt passing lanes more
Not the best rebounder at the 2
Really needs to limit turnovers

The guy said Harden NEGATIVELY impacts a team and is a ball hog who stuck no d....that is the definition of a bad player. I said Lin would help my Bulls. What thread are you reading homie?
And I also said Harden is the team's best scorer. That's a plus!

dgaras

01-02-2014, 12:49 AM

As a Knick fan our PG's defense is poor to ultra poor. So if you are arguing Lin is average to slightly below average, then yes, he would improve us.

Basically, is the PG alive? Then he improves us.

i thought you said felton was better and lin cant play d?

what happened to all the knick fans that said i was wrong when i said lin was good at defending.

Micku

01-02-2014, 01:07 AM

I think Lin could help out a bunch of teams either as a solid back up or a starter. I think he would be the most useful with the Lakers, Bulls or the Knicks. I think he'll develop faster with the Spurs with Tony Parker and Pop teaching him the ropes, but they already have enough talent over there. I think he could fit ok with the Pacers, but they don't need anymore turnovers than they already have especially when they face the Heat.

Lin seemed to be the type of person who needs to the ball to be effective. According to statistics, he is one of the best drivers in the game. He's also a very good finisher. He worked on his off ball movement this year, but still needs to ball to get the most out of his potential. Everything about him improved except for his turnovers. His shot seemed to improved in the beginning of the season, but now he is back to old habits with the high arc as someone already mentioned.

I wouldn't call him great defensively until he does it for a whole season, but it does show that he could defend pretty well for short stretches like this one.

I still don't know Lin's potential, but he definitely could help some teams as a starter. He is a scorer. Very good driver, good finisher and solid shooter. He is a good playmaker, but he often make clumsy mistakes.

So, I think a lot of teams would like to have him the way he is playing now and they would improve, but only a few teams could use him to his full potential. Whatever that may be.

strifed169

01-02-2014, 01:54 AM

Calling someone a ball hogging chucker who plays no defense after calling him one of the most talented guys in the league puts him in the same category as guys like JR Smith and Nick Young.

Harden is one of the best SGs in the league and if Lin was a better pure PG he wouldn't have to handle the ball as much.

If Lin knew how to throw lobs and run the pick and roll better he could average many more assists with weapons like Dwight, Harden, and Parsons.

That all depends on his usage rate, Harden and his ISOs take up the majority of the Rocket's possessions, so Lin's really not able to show his true potential as a PG, matter of fact, he probably has the worst luck of being coached by the worst coach in the league for PGs in Mcfail.