The idea that elite point guards can't win NBA championships is false

[blood yes]

Im starting to wonder if the dudes here even played rec league ball...

All the threads going around saying how "elite point guards cant win championships" proves right here that the majority of ISH has never played even high school basketball

Just because their player card on ESPN doesn't say "point guard" doesn't mean they aren't the point guard of the team.

If you ever played basketball, the point guard handles the team, and runs the offense.

Guys like LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, 06 dwyane wade, were the point guards of their teams.

Are you trying to say derek fisher, Mario charmers, and Jason Williams (the one that was washed up and spot up for 3s) were the floor generals for their teams?

Jeez, do you guys know anything bout ball?

By definition, those guys were point guards, and the best players on their teams

Im going on a rant because the majority of ISH thinks that elite point guards cant win championships, without even knowing what the hell a point guard is...

The funny things is, the majority of ISH isnt even trolling when saying this.
It disgusts me.

LeBron, Kobe, 06 Wade, were all the point guards on their championship team.

Chalmers/Fisher/Williams filled the wing slot on those teams, going through screens and waiting at the corners for 3s. These guys WERE NOT the point guards for their team!!!

Rant done

[insidehoops]

Bump because it's interesting enough to discuss

[Jameerthefear]

I would say they're the playmakers. Which is basically the same thing.

[blood yes]

Bump because it's interesting enough to discuss
Thanks Jeff

Unlike many here, I try to make good threads that actually have real debate:cheers:

My post got approved by Jeff!!!!!!!

[tgan3]

But their position are not point guards?

:confusedshrug:

Its more like an elite wing/forward running the point because they are the best player. it isn't the same as say CP3 running the point.

[blood yes]

But their position are not point guards?

:confusedshrug:

Its more like an elite wing/forward running the point because they are the best player. it isn't the same as say CP3 running the point.
But it is the same!

The only reason lebron, Kobe, wade, weren't starting at the actual point guard position would be because it would be too tiring guarding smaller players. It would be annoying

However, they were the point guards, ur getting mixed up here

Are you trying to say that melo is a point because he is an elite wing? Or durant? Or Paul George?

It's different. Kobe, lebron, wade, they actually literally run the offense.

What does cp3 do that lebron doesn't on the offense? Besides lebron looking for his shot more? If drose can be considered a point, isn't Kobe just a scoring point guard?

Remember. Height does not define your position, what you do does.

[redboy]

imo the thing is that there really hasn't been an under 6'3 "point guard" that has been good enough/had a good enough team in order to win. what i mean by that is that a pg will never be a versatile player like lebron/hakeem/duncan that can be a do it all guy for his team, but i do think that a point guard can be the best player on his team given the circumstances. the 07 suns, for example, may have won that year had it not been for circumstances. i think that they easily would have beat the jazz and especially the cavs. the same goes for 08 cp3. i think with a good enough supporting cast, 08 cp3 could have won the championship. it's just that there are too few pgs that are on a prime lebron/prime kobe status and thus we don't ever see a pg good enough to win a championship.

[Mr. Jabbar]

ppl overblow all this position things, basketball has hundreds of aspects and only 5 positions, at the end of the day some one has to fill in the lineup sheet, its not that serious

[blood yes]

imo the thing is that there really hasn't been an under 6'3 "point guard" that has been good enough/had a good enough team in order to win. what i mean by that is that a pg will never be a versatile player like lebron/hakeem/duncan that can be a do it all guy for his team, but i do think that a point guard can be the best player on his team given the circumstances. the 07 suns, for example, may have won that year had it not been for circumstances. i think that they easily would have beat the jazz and especially the cavs. the same goes for 08 cp3. i think with a good enough supporting cast, 08 cp3 could have won the championship. it's just that there are too few pgs that are on a prime lebron/prime kobe status and thus we don't ever see a pg good enough to win a championship.
If you bothered reading my post, you would see that your post makes no sense to what I'm trying to say

[VIntageNOvel]

nah more like, you cant win a ring with undersize/short player (usually at PG position) as your go to guy

[Jakeh008]

Can a elite point guard under 6'4 lead a team to a championship?

Parker and Billups are the only FMVPs in the last 20 years. But are they elite?

[blood yes]

nah more like, you cant win a ring with undersize/short player (usually at PG position) as your go to guy
Is dwade not short enough for you? He's literally the same height as many "official, it says so on espn" point guards

[Fudge]

Did people just forget about Rondo, or...?

[blood yes]

Did people just forget about Rondo, or...?
Rondo in 2008 was not an elite point guard. He was the 4th best player on his team:facepalm

[Fudge]

You're right, nvm. I always thought he had an excellent 08 Finals for some reason.

[9erempiree]

Im starting to wonder if the dudes here even played rec league ball...

All the threads going around saying how "elite point guards cant win championships" proves right here that the majority of ISH has never played even high school basketball

Just because their player card on ESPN doesn't say "point guard" doesn't mean they aren't the point guard of the team.

If you ever played basketball, the point guard handles the team, and runs the offense.

Guys like LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, 06 dwyane wade, were the point guards of their teams.

Are you trying to say derek fisher, Mario charmers, and Jason Williams (the one that was washed up and spot up for 3s) were the floor generals for their teams?

Jeez, do you guys know anything bout ball?

By definition, those guys were point guards, and the best players on their teams

Im going on a rant because the majority of ISH thinks that elite point guards cant win championships, without even knowing what the hell a point guard is...

The funny things is, the majority of ISH isnt even trolling when saying this.
It disgusts me.

LeBron, Kobe, 06 Wade, were all the point guards on their championship team.

Chalmers/Fisher/Williams filled the wing slot on those teams, going through screens and waiting at the corners for 3s. These guys WERE NOT the point guards for their team!!!

Rant done

You are mistaking the two and the two are not the same thing, PG and the likes of Kobe, MJ, or even Wade. Don't mistake them as PG's because they are not. They won a championship because they are the best player.

There is ad difference between best player in the league versus best PG in the league.

CP3 isn't considered or getting notoriety because he's one of the best players in the game. He gets his fame for being the best PG. Same thing with Nash. Nash can't win a championship and he's an elite PG but he's not the best player in the game.

Elite PG's job is to spread the ball and run the offense. Kobe, MJ and Wade are the best players in the game. They are the offense. Don't count on elite PG's like Nash and CP3 to takeover a game because those guys are PG's and they need teammates to hit open shots to be productive to their scoring.

[Mr. Jabbar]

maybe the correct phrasing would be "cant win a ring nowadays with a go-to guy that averages double digit assists"

[9erempiree]

PG position is highly overrated when it comes to winning a championship. Just because Kobe is THE offense of the team, it doesn't make him a PG.

They both have different roles.

Kobe can get the offense going with his scoring and then look for the open guy but no coaches teach that kind of offense. That would be called ISO and not very productive.

PG's role is to find open guys and hit the eventual open J. They look to get others involve so their scoring prowess suck in that sense. So when teammates are not hitting their shots, takes a team to win a ring, the lack of scoring from these PG will hinder the team's ability to win.

Elite PG will never win a ring by themselves compared to other more important and valuable positions.

[9erempiree]

maybe the correct phrasing would be "cant win a ring nowadays with a go-to guy that averages double digit assists"

Perfect and I agree.

Especially when the "go-to guy" is someone who's job, is to "pass" to another guy.

Can't have "go-to guy" go to another guy.

[blood yes]

You are mistaking the two and the two are not the same thing, PG and the likes of Kobe, MJ, or even Wade. Don't mistake them as PG's because they are not. They won a championship because they are the best player.

There is ad difference between best player in the league versus best PG in the league.

CP3 isn't considered or getting notoriety because he's one of the best players in the game. He gets his fame for being the best PG. Same thing with Nash. Nash can't win a championship and he's an elite PG but he's not the best player in the game.

Elite PG's job is to spread the ball and run the offense. Kobe, MJ and Wade are the best players in the game. They are the offense. Don't count on elite PG's like Nash and CP3 to takeover a game because those guys are PG's and they need teammates to hit open shots to be productive to their scoring.

I think what you're forgetting though is that a point guard's job is NOT to just pass the ball around, it is literally to run the offense

When I played ball in HS, the point guard of our team was not much of a pass first guy, but he ran the offense, and did it well.

Dross, Westbrook, kyrie, and others are considered point guards

Kobe, wade, lebron, they are all just point guards that play a diff position because it would destroy their legs defending 5'10 dudes. They run the offense.

Point guard doesn't equal passer, remember that

[SacJB Shady]

Curry will probably win

[mrRager]

I think what you're forgetting though is that a point guard's job is NOT to just pass the ball around, it is literally to run the offense

When I played ball in HS, the point guard of our team was not much of a pass first guy, but he ran the offense, and did it well.

Dross, Westbrook, kyrie, and others are considered point guards

Kobe, wade, lebron, they are all just point guards that play a diff position because it would destroy their legs defending 5'10 dudes. They run the offense.

Point guard doesn't equal passer, remember that
theyre playmakers. i agree that you can win with an elite pg but its not necessary to have a chris paul running the show. i'd much rather have lebron handling the ball. and in addition, you can be a pg without being the best player on your team. if anything, because of salary implications i would prefer to have a solid pg with a star big man that can play both ends if the court. do you honestly believe cp3 will win a title as the best player on his team when he has blake griffin only? i think this is where people miscommunicate that elite pgs cant win because its not likely to have the best pg and the best bigman on the same roster.

[SpanishACB]

Hey OP, you'd save twice the effort if you pressed enter once instead of twice.
Also when people say elite pgs don't win championships they're actually refering to the fact it's rare to see it happen without a true elite big.
Of course that's not true anymore due to the nature of current new generation superstar players (no balls, no ego, need to team up).

[MARLO]

While I agree with the Title of this thread, I think the OP is being a little too general...

You're saying that you can't win a ring if your best player isn't your point guard and that since Lebron and Kobe, etc. were running the offense on their respective championship teams, they should be considered point guards?

Theoretically, the position a certain player plays is not set in stone.
Magic Johnson could play the 1 or the 5 spot.
Many Players have switched between positions.

[knicksman]

never knew 5 apg is considered elite

[MMM]

Rondo in 2008 was not an elite point guard. He was the 4th best player on his team:facepalm

he was in 2010 and was a quarter away from a fMVP (not a great series but i doubt they would give it to Glen Davis or kobe on a losing team)

[Noyze]

Im starting to wonder if the dudes here even played rec league ball...

All the threads going around saying how "elite point guards cant win championships" proves right here that the majority of ISH has never played even high school basketball

Just because their player card on ESPN doesn't say "point guard" doesn't mean they aren't the point guard of the team.

If you ever played basketball, the point guard handles the team, and runs the offense.

Guys like LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, 06 dwyane wade, were the point guards of their teams.

Are you trying to say derek fisher, Mario charmers, and Jason Williams (the one that was washed up and spot up for 3s) were the floor generals for their teams?

Jeez, do you guys know anything bout ball?

By definition, those guys were point guards, and the best players on their teams

Im going on a rant because the majority of ISH thinks that elite point guards cant win championships, without even knowing what the hell a point guard is...

The funny things is, the majority of ISH isnt even trolling when saying this.
It disgusts me.

LeBron, Kobe, 06 Wade, were all the point guards on their championship team.

Chalmers/Fisher/Williams filled the wing slot on those teams, going through screens and waiting at the corners for 3s. These guys WERE NOT the point guards for their team!!!

Rant done

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321211

You just said the same shit in that thread. You say the same point the same way like a 12 year old.

[BoutPractice]

If you're defining players in terms of function instead of position, then you could say it's more a question of size than position: LeBron, Magic, Kobe, Pippen, Wade, Oscar, Jerry West, they're all 6-4 or more. You can add Dennis Johnson, Jason Kidd for actual PGs... Teams with taller playmakers whatever the position tend to win more historically. NBA fans often underestimate the importance of size because the obvious advantage of taller players seems somewhat "unfair" to them (even though things like athleticism are just as unfair). It's also easier to win if your playmaker isn't too ball dominant, though there are exceptions for truly elite players... but in particular the historical trend is that ball dominant playmakers around 6-0 almost never lead their teams to championships.

[VIntageNOvel]

If you're defining players in terms of function instead of position, then you could say it's more a question of size than position: LeBron, Magic, Kobe, Pippen, Wade, Oscar, Jerry West, they're all 6-4 or more. You can add Dennis Johnson, Jason Kidd for actual PGs... Teams with taller playmakers whatever the position tend to win more historically. NBA fans often underestimate the importance of size because the obvious advantage of taller players seems somewhat "unfair" to them (even though things like athleticism are just as unfair). It's also easier to win if your playmaker isn't too ball dominant, though there are exceptions for truly elite players... but in particular the historical trend is that ball dominant playmakers around 6-0 almost never lead their teams to championships.

tl dr version

nah more like, you cant win a ring with undersize/short player (usually at PG position) as your go to guy

[iTare]

What he's trying to say is that it doesn't matter how many assists or what 'position' they play. He's saying that the 'real' point guard is whoever the offense is going through. Which now a days is an elite wing player.

[I<3NBA]

look, Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole just won the championship so this thread is pointless.

[Da KO King]

I won't speak on your HS experience because I didn't see your team. I have watched the NBA examples you've given and NONE of those guys are PGs. You're confusing "running an offense" with handling the ball most frequently.

A PG controls the offense. He controls spacing, tempo, and keeps the team organized. He sets the transition and perimeter defense. None of the guys you named do that regularly, if at all. LeBron is an amazing passer and completely unselfish in terms of getting good shots for others over mediocre ones for himself; it doesn't make him a PG though.

Now what doesn't get spoken on enough is the fact that due to the nature of the NBA game (rules on the floor, total player development [ie lack thereof], and roster management) "traditional" PGs are all but useless. In Europe and in College you need a "floor coach" that knows to have a guy run a "pro cut to corner fill" to figure out if you are facing a zone or a m2m defense. In the NBA it doesn't matter because they have a defensive three second rule so all you need to do is space the floor with shooters and run a side PnR to get an open look.

[iamgine]

OP takes the idea out of context. When people say PG, they mean a PG. Lebron can play PG very well but he's not a PG.

Derek Fisher didn't do many PG jobs. Kobe probably did more PG jobs than Derek. That still doesn't make Kobe the PG. Derek is still the PG. Just like Chalmers is still the PG even though Lebron is doing more PG jobs.

[miles berg]

Seeing how it has been 24 years, since Isiah Thomas in 1990, since it has happened I think it is safe to say you can't.

[retaxis]

OP nitpicking the definitions. PG is a point guard which is usually the shortest man and the quickest man on your team. In the playoffs the ball stays in the post a lot more then on the perimeter (opposite in regular season) which is why elite point guards never win NBA championships.

[Bandito]

People are mistaken finding the open man and making the pass to PG. It is true that they do that but any idiot can do that consistently. PG is the floor general, they dictate the offense, defense and other things on the floor. They are the leaders, the coach behind the coach while being on the floor.

Also people tend to forget Magic,Isaih and Cousy existed...

[blood yes]

never knew 5 apg is considered elite
Just because they dont get assists doesnt mean they are not point guards!!!

A point guard RUNS THE OFFENSE, he does NOT have to pass

Kobe/Wade/LeBron are just SCORING point guards, like drose or kyrie is.

Passing does not equal point guard
Running the offense, being a leader=point guard

[HurricaneKid]

Just because they dont get assists doesnt mean they are not point guards!!!

A point guard RUNS THE OFFENSE, he does NOT have to pass

Kobe/Wade/LeBron are just SCORING point guards, like drose or kyrie is.

Passing does not equal point guard
Running the offense, being a leader=point guard

Houston played through Olajuwon.

So Olajuwon is a point guard.

Dumb position is dumb.

[Solefade]

uhm Isiah Thomas?

[blood yes]

Houston played through Olajuwon.

So Olajuwon is a point guard.

Dumb position is dumb.
Are you ****ing dumb? or are you just trying to act retarded?

Olajuwon never RAN the offense.

I never saw Hakeem run the ball down the court, or drive and kick out to a wide open shooter, you dumb****.

If you disagree with my opinion, fine, but dont try to troll me with this nonsense bullshit.

[Owl]

Im starting to wonder if the dudes here even played rec league ball...

All the threads going around saying how "elite point guards cant win championships" proves right here that the majority of ISH has never played even high school basketball

Just because their player card on ESPN doesn't say "point guard" doesn't mean they aren't the point guard of the team.

If you ever played basketball, the point guard handles the team, and runs the offense.

Guys like LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, 06 dwyane wade, were the point guards of their teams.

Are you trying to say derek fisher, Mario charmers, and Jason Williams (the one that was washed up and spot up for 3s) were the floor generals for their teams?

Jeez, do you guys know anything bout ball?

By definition, those guys were point guards, and the best players on their teams

Im going on a rant because the majority of ISH thinks that elite point guards cant win championships, without even knowing what the hell a point guard is...

The funny things is, the majority of ISH isnt even trolling when saying this.
It disgusts me.

LeBron, Kobe, 06 Wade, were all the point guards on their championship team.

Chalmers/Fisher/Williams filled the wing slot on those teams, going through screens and waiting at the corners for 3s. These guys WERE NOT the point guards for their team!!!

Rant done
Accepting your distinction between nominal, box-score pgs (Chalmers, Fisher, Williams) and the primary ball handler, play caller etc, out of curiosity do you agree with those who would argue that you can't win a title with a boxscore pg (historically including Robertson, Magic, Frazier, Payton, Kidd or if those are too big Archibald, Stockton, Nash, Thomas, Billups or presently Paul, Westbrook, Curry, Rose, Parker) as your best player?

My Take:
I think you can win with any position as your best player. The suggestion that you can't doesn't make sense to me, but I can sort of see where it comes from.

Coming from a much larger population the disparity between the best and the worst (or best and average) starting pgs is (you would expect) typically smaller than the distance between elite and worst (or average) for taller players (you might say only need to be in, say, the top 10% of 7 footers in the general playing age population to make the NBA, that percentage will be much, much smaller for 6-6'4 players). Given the larger advantage typically gained over opponents by having elite, larger players, it might be argued it is more important have them than elite pgs. Bigger players will also tend to have a larger impact on D.

All of which said, there are no hard and fast rules. You can with with offense or D; with superstars or an ensemble cast (though you'll need good D for the latter); with a nominal big, wing or pg as your best player. There's only one champ a year so you can pretend there are specific rule for a given era (and cutoff eras conveniently to "prove" your points), but there aren't.

[Xover]

BUMP. This topic has been discussed for the last decade