Wilt Chamberlain's free-throw shooting in Elimination Games

[Deuce Bigalow]

'60 Playoffs
EDS Gm 3- 5/16
EDF Gm 5- 6/18
EDF Gm 6- 10/16

'61 Playoffs
EDS Gm 3- 7/14

'62 Playoffs
EDS Gm 5- 12/22
EDF Gm 6- 8/10
EDF Gm 7- 8/9

'63 Playoffs
Missed Postseason

'64 Playoffs
WDF Gm 7- 1/6
Finals Gm 7- 6/13

'65 Playoffs
EDF Gm 6- 4/8
EDF Gm 7- 6/13

'66 Playoffs
EDF Gm 5- 8/25

'67 Playoffs
No elimination games

'68 Playoffs
EDF Gm 7- 6/15

'69 Playoffs
Finals Gm 7- 4/13

'70 Playoffs
WDS Gm 5- 12/19
WDS Gm 6- 4/12
WDS Gm 7- 8/17
Finals Gm 6- 5/14
Finals Gm 7- 1/11

'71 Playoffs
WDS Gm 7- 11/17
WDF Gm 5- 3/9

'72 Playoffs
No elimination games

'73 Playoffs
WDS Gm 7- 1/1
Finals Gm 5- 5/14

Career
23 games- 141/333 (42.3%)

Source: http://nbastats.net/01NBA/07playerlogs/Chamberlain.xls

[b1imtf]

Damn don't do 'em like that :oldlol:

[MP.Trey]

Brutal. Someone do Shaq's.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Brutal. Someone do Shaq's.

Shaq career elimination games ft shooting:

1994 game 3 vs Indiana - 5/10 - L
1995 game 7 Indiana - 3/11 - W
1995 game 4 Houston - 3/8 - L
1996 game 4 chicago - 6/9 - L
1997 game 5 utah - 5/9 - L
1998 game 4 utah - 10/18 - L
1999 game 4 san antonio - 12/23 - L
2000 game 7 portland - 8/12 - W
2002 game 6 sac - 13/17 - W
2002 game 7 sac - 11/15 - W
2003 game 6 spurs - 5/10 - L
2004 game 5 detroit - 6/16 - L
2005 game 7 detroit - 5/10 - L
2007 game 4 chicago - 0/7 - L
2008 game 4 spurs - 5/10 - W
2008 game 5 spurs - 9/20 - L
2010 game 6 celtics - 3/6 - L
2011 game 5 miami - 0/0 - L

Total: 109/211 = 51.7%
Career shooting: 52.7%

Shaq with 10% higher and over 50% :applause:

If you only look at Shaq's prime (ends in '05) it's 92/168 (54.8%). Wilt didn't play past his prime so it's only fair to look at Shaq's prime.

[LAZERUSS]

Nice fresh topic...

Now do one with Wilt's rebounding and his opposing centers's rebounding in his elimination games. And then another one with Wilt's FG%'s and his opposing centers' FG%'s in elimination games.

[kurple]

why do you hate wilt so much? 2nd hate thread today

[LAZERUSS]

And while you are at, why not start a topic on Kobe's Finals FG%'s, and especially his FG%s in his Finals elimination and clinching games?

Bird's too.

[LAZERUSS]

And why don't you start a topic with Kobe's performances in his very last game of each of his post-seasons, too, including the score.

[b1imtf]

And while you are at, why not start a topic on Kobe's Finals FG%'s, and especially his FG%s in his Finals elimination and clinching games?

Bird's too.
2:oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

And while you are at it...post KAJ's team's post-season runs in the 70's, when as you know, only winning a ring counted.

Oh, and don't forget about Hakeem too. Let's post his team's playoff runs in his 15 post-seasons. And please don't give me any B.S. about his surrounding talent, or how they played, either, since you don't give Chamberlain the same benefit either.

[Deuce Bigalow]

And while you are at, why not start a topic on Kobe's Finals FG%'s, and especially his FG%s in his Finals elimination and clinching games?

Bird's too.
Kobe

:bowdown: :bowdown::bowdown:
:bowdown:
:bowdown: :bowdown:
::::::bowdown:
::::::bowdown:
:bowdown: :bowdown:

[K Xerxes]

And while you are at it...post KAJ's team's post-season runs in the 70's, when as you know, only winning a ring counted.

Oh, and don't forget about Hakeem too. Let's post his team's playoff runs in his 15 post-seasons. And please don't give me any B.S. about his surrounding talent, or how they played, either, since you don't give Chamberlain the same benefit either.

Better team mates means you shoot better on the FT line? Damn, and here is me thinking that you shoot FTs on your own. Thanks for the revelation.

[LAZERUSS]

Kobe

:bowdown: :bowdown::bowdown:
:bowdown:
:bowdown: :bowdown:
::::::bowdown:
::::::bowdown:
:bowdown: :bowdown:

Yep...


How about Kobe and his regular season FG%, and his Finals' FG%'s...

99-00 .468 -- .367
00-01 .464 -- .415
01-02 .469 -- .514 (oh wait...against the star-studded Nets)
03-04 .438 -- .381
07-08 .459 -- .405
08-09 .467 -- .430
09-10 .456 -- .409

Kobe in the clinching games of those seven Finals...

99-00 -- .296
00-01 -- .389
01-02 -- .438
03-04 -- .333
07-08 -- .318
08-09 -- .435
09-10 -- .250


Consistent. The bigger the game, the worse he shot...

[Deuce Bigalow]

And while you are at, why not start a topic on Kobe's Finals FG%'s, and especially his FG%s in his Finals elimination and clinching games?

Bird's too.
Bird

:bowdown: :bowdown:
:::::::bowdown:
:::::::bowdown:
:bowdown::bowdown:
:::::::bowdown:
:::::::bowdown:
:bowdown::bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt

2:oldlol:

[coin24]

Wilt McGee

[LAZERUSS]

Bird

:bowdown: :bowdown:
:::::::bowdown:
:::::::bowdown:
:bowdown::bowdown:
:::::::bowdown:
:::::::bowdown:
:bowdown::bowdown:

And thanks to Colts18 for this gem...


Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

Bird played in an NBA that shot about .485 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .472. Which is bad enough, BUT, wait...it gets worse. He shot a CAREER .455 in his five FINALS. In fact, he shot UNDER .399 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .499...ELEVEN times (including TWO games of under .299!) His HIGH Finals series was only .488, and his LOW was .419.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in TWO of them, and in fact, lost out to a TEAMMATE in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the SECOND best player on the floor in TWO more ('85 and '87 Finals.)

[Psileas]

Shaq with a 5-13 elimination record, which makes even Wilt's FT's look decent. Expected, of course, if you consider he's been swept around 1.6 gazillion times...
Wilt at 12-11.

[BBallZen83]

Quote:
How about Kobe and his regular season FG%, and his Finals' FG%'s...

99-00 .468 -- .367
00-01 .464 -- .415
01-02 .469 -- .514 (oh wait...against the star-studded Nets)
03-04 .438 -- .381
07-08 .459 -- .405
08-09 .467 -- .430
09-10 .456 -- .409

Kobe in the clinching games of those seven Finals...

99-00 -- .296
00-01 -- .389
01-02 -- .438
03-04 -- .333
07-08 -- .318
08-09 -- .435
09-10 -- .250


Consistent. The bigger the game, the worse he shot...

YIKES! I knew Kobe 's clutch gene was exaggerated but wow...

[dr.hee]

Is Jlauber actually Wilt's ghost protecting his legacy?

[Alan Ogg]

There is no other great player in the history of the NBA who dropped off so much in FT% in the playoffs than Wilt. It's actually not even close.

Regular / Playoffs / Differential
Jordan 83.5 82.8 -0.7
Russell 56.1 60.3 4.2
Kareem 72.1 74 1.9
Magic 84.8 83.8 -1
Bird 88.6 89 0.4
Wilt 51.1 46.5 -4.6
Lebron 74.7 74.9 0.2
Shaq 52.7 50.4 -2.3
Duncan 69.4 68.7 -0.7
Kobe 83.8 81.6 -2.2
Hakeem 71.2 71.9 0.7
Moses 76 75.6 -0.4
Pettit 76.1 77.4 1.3
Oscar 83.8 85.5 1.7
West 81.4 80.5 -0.9
Dr. J. 77.7 78.4 0.7
Karl Malone 74.2 73.6 -0.6
Dirk 87.8 89.3 1.5
Baylor 78 76.9 -1.1
Garnett 79 79.1 0.1
Robinson 73.6 70.8 -2.8

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yep...
Did you take away his 5 cookies? No, no you didn't.

Kobe :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Wilt :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

And thanks to Colts18 for this gem...



Bird played in an NBA that shot about .485 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .472. Which is bad enough, BUT, wait...it gets worse. He shot a CAREER .455 in his five FINALS. In fact, he shot UNDER .399 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .499...ELEVEN times (including TWO games of under .299!) His HIGH Finals series was only .488, and his LOW was .419.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in TWO of them, and in fact, lost out to a TEAMMATE in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the SECOND best player on the floor in TWO more ('85 and '87 Finals.)
STILL

Bird 3
Wilt 2

Both are retired so its forever going to be that way.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Shaq with a 5-13 elimination record, which makes even Wilt's FT's look decent. Expected, of course, if you consider he's been swept around 1.6 gazillion times...
Wilt at 12-11.
You think a better elimination record and worse FT% > Shaq's more rings and better FT% numbers?

[SHABBA]

I genuinely don't think Wilt should be considered a big part of b-ball history. So much of his legend is exaggerated or just plain made up.

When you look at what we know for sure, he's not even top 25 all-time.

[Marchesk]

STILL

Bird 3
Wilt 2

Both are retired so its forever going to be that way.

Hondo 8
Mikan 5

What is the point of this?

[Psileas]

You think a better elimination record and worse FT% > Shaq's more rings and better FT% numbers?

I think Wilt > Shaq and that's all.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Hondo 8
Mikan 5

What is the point of this?
Hondo as great as he was doesn't belong in the GOATs discussion.

[moe94]

Hondo as great as he was doesn't belong in the GOATs discussion.

Neither does Mikan.

I'm joking, Mikan is clearly the greatest to ever play.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I think Wilt > Shaq and that's all.
Better than 00-02 Shaq?

Shaq had Kobe and won 3 in a row and a 4th with Wade. Wilt had Jerry West and managed only 1 title. Why?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Neither does Mikan.

I'm joking, Mikan is clearly the greatest to ever play.
I almost lost my shit man.

[Marchesk]

I genuinely don't think Wilt should be considered a big part of b-ball history. So much of his legend is exaggerated or just plain made up.

When you look at what we know for sure, he's not even top 25 all-time.

Luckily, mountain lions thrown and female conquests aren't basketball stats.

Wilt led the league in scoring 7 times, FG% 8 times, rebounding 11 times, and is the only center to lead it in assists. His rookie season, he led the league in scoring and rebounding. His two title teams are considered two of the greatest teams ever. He averaged 24/24/8 on 68.3% shooting for a 68 win team that is the only one to beat a healthy Russell's Celtics. Wilt owns the record books. It's not just his scoring records. It's that 55 rebound game against Russell. It's the 72.7 FG%. It's averaging slightly more minutes per game than there are the regular season (because of OT play).

MJ might be the consensus goat, Russell has the rings, Kareem and Kobe have the longevity, Oscar has the tripple doubles, but nobody had the stastical dominance that Wilt had in the entire history of the game.

It's not even close. And that's simply an objective statement. That's why most people have Wilt in their top 5. Wilt should be in everyone's top 10 because of his enormous influence on the game.

The only thing keeping Wilt from consensus GOAT is era and that he wasn't drafted by the Celtics. We'll never know what would have been if Russell doesn't get traded by the Hawks and Aureback decides to go get Wilt's pick a couple years later. We do know that when Wilt played for the right coaches, his teams excelled.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe Finals' FG%'s...

99-00 .468 -- .367
00-01 .464 -- .415
01-02 .469 -- .514 (oh wait...against the star-studded Nets)
03-04 .438 -- .381
07-08 .459 -- .405
08-09 .467 -- .430
09-10 .456 -- .409

Kobe in the clinching games of those seven Finals...

99-00 -- .296
00-01 -- .389
01-02 -- .438
03-04 -- .333
07-08 -- .318
08-09 -- .435
09-10 -- .250


Consistent. The bigger the game, the worse he shot...
:biggums:

[Deuce Bigalow]

There is no other great player in the history of the NBA who dropped off so much in FT% in the playoffs than Wilt. It's actually not even close.

Regular / Playoffs / Differential
Jordan 83.5 82.8 -0.7
Russell 56.1 60.3 4.2
Kareem 72.1 74 1.9
Magic 84.8 83.8 -1
Bird 88.6 89 0.4
Wilt 51.1 46.5 -4.6
Lebron 74.7 74.9 0.2
Shaq 52.7 50.4 -2.3
Duncan 69.4 68.7 -0.7
Kobe 83.8 81.6 -2.2
Hakeem 71.2 71.9 0.7
Moses 76 75.6 -0.4
Pettit 76.1 77.4 1.3
Oscar 83.8 85.5 1.7
West 81.4 80.5 -0.9
Dr. J. 77.7 78.4 0.7
Karl Malone 74.2 73.6 -0.6
Dirk 87.8 89.3 1.5
Baylor 78 76.9 -1.1
Garnett 79 79.1 0.1
Robinson 73.6 70.8 -2.8
Am I wrong to conclude this as evidence for choking?

[LAZERUSS]

Am I wrong to conclude this as evidence for choking?

If you value FT% (and without the scoring....Chamberlain outscored all of his opposing centers in evert Final series from the line)...

BUT, how about FG%'s, which are valued at twice a FT%, and were are generally also taken about twice as often (which would make them 4x as valuable)?

Or the fact that Chamberlain's TS% against the post-season league average, was almost always way over the post-season league average.

Or the fact that Wilt almost always reduced the efficiency of his opposing centers in the post-season, and many times by huge margins?

Or the fact that Wilt outrebounded everyone in every one of his 29 post-season series, and usually by overwhelming margins?

Or that Chamberlain was outscoring his opposing centers in the vast majority of his 29 post-season series, and often by massive margins?

But, no, let's just focus on FT shooting...

And if we do JUST focus on FT shooting...then players like Kareem, Hakeem, Russell, and Shaq would be near the bottom of an all-time Top-200 GOAT list...

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Quote:
How about Kobe and his regular season FG%, and his Finals' FG%'s...

99-00 .468 -- .367
00-01 .464 -- .415
01-02 .469 -- .514 (oh wait...against the star-studded Nets)
03-04 .438 -- .381
07-08 .459 -- .405
08-09 .467 -- .430
09-10 .456 -- .409

Kobe in the clinching games of those seven Finals...

99-00 -- .296
00-01 -- .389
01-02 -- .438
03-04 -- .333
07-08 -- .318
08-09 -- .435
09-10 -- .250


Consistent. The bigger the game, the worse he shot...

YIKES! I knew Kobe 's clutch gene was exaggerated but wow...

:eek:

[riseagainst]

Quote:
How about Kobe and his regular season FG%, and his Finals' FG%'s...

99-00 .468 -- .367
00-01 .464 -- .415
01-02 .469 -- .514 (oh wait...against the star-studded Nets)
03-04 .438 -- .381
07-08 .459 -- .405
08-09 .467 -- .430
09-10 .456 -- .409

Kobe in the clinching games of those seven Finals...

99-00 -- .296
00-01 -- .389
01-02 -- .438
03-04 -- .333
07-08 -- .318
08-09 -- .435
09-10 -- .250


Consistent. The bigger the game, the worse he shot...

YIKES! I knew Kobe 's clutch gene was exaggerated but wow...

nice copy and paste from page 1.

[Deuce Bigalow]

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Bird
6. Kobe
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Mikan
10. West
11. Wilt
12. Hakeem
13. Lebron

Find a better top 13 than that tbh.

Wilt is still a great player. I'm not hating.

[LAZERUSS]

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Bird
6. Kobe
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Mikan
10. West
11. Wilt
12. Hakeem
13. Lebron

Find a better top 13 than that tbh.

Wilt is still a great player. I'm not hating.

Wilt, MJ, Magic, and Russell in tier one.

Kareem at #5.

Shaq and Duncan at 6-7.

Kobe, Bird, Hakeem, Moses, Dr. J. , Lebron at 8-13.

West and Oscar at 14-15...

after that it doesn't really matter. Too many great players that you could lump together. Pettit, Hondo, Barry, Dirk, KG, Baylor, Barkley, Robinson, and some I probably missed...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt, MJ, Magic, and Russell in tier one.

Kareem at #5.

Shaq and Duncan at 6-7.

Kobe, Bird, Hakeem, Moses, Dr. J. at 8-12.

West and Oscar at 13-14...

after that it doesn't really matter. Too many great players that you could lump together. Pettit, Hondo, Barry, Dirk, KG, Baylor, Barkley, Robinson, and some I probably missed...
You need to have a handful of rings to be considered tier one. Can't be calling a two timer the GOAT now.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt's two rings make him in the category of other two timers like Hakeem and Lebron. Let's not forget Mr Clutch Jerry West's '69 and '70 years where he should have back to back championships to his name but a certain teammate did not live up to his regular season expectations.

[LAZERUSS]

You need to have a handful of rings to be considered tier one. Can't be calling a two timer the GOAT now.

Nope...the RECORD BOOK suggests otherwise. As well as the fact that Wilt was the best player on the floor in some 25 of his 29 post-season series...

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's two rings make him in the category of other two timers like Hakeem and Lebron. Let's not forget Mr Clutch Jerry West's '69 and '70 years where he should have back to back championships to his name but a certain teammate did not live up to his regular season expectations.

You're right about '69, if Baylor would have produced at all in the Finals, he would have won a ring that season. And then even West choked in game seven of the '70 Finals. Had it not been for Chamberlain, on one leg mind you, putting up a 45-27 game six, that series would never have gone to a game seven. And, of course, Chamberlain was easily their best player in that game seven.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Nope...the RECORD BOOK suggests otherwise. As well as the fact that Wilt was the best player on the floor in some 25 of his 29 post-season series...
In the regular season. Guess who retired with the Playoff record book in his hands? Thats right Mr Clutch. He retired with the most playoff - points, 20 pt games, 30 pt games, 40 pt games, and in the NBA Finals - most points, 30 pt games, 40 pt games, and 50 pt games. And did I forget, NBA record playoff PPG at over 29 a game for his playoff career. And the highest ppg in a playoff series with over 45 ppg which still stands today. These records were of course later broken by Jordan but it was West who retired the man.

[LAZERUSS]

In the regular season. Guess who retired with the Playoff record book in his hands? Thats right Mr Clutch. He retired with the most playoff - points, 20 pt games, 30 pt games, 40 pt games, and in the NBA Finals - most points, 30 pt games, 40 pt games, and 50 pt games. And did I forget, NBA record playoff PPG at over 29 a game and 30.5 Finals ppg record. These records were of course later broken by Jordan but it was West who retired the man.

Oh wait, in one thread you bash Wilt because he supposedly could not lead a team in scoring to a title, but then you praise West who couldn't win a title in leading his team in scoring in the post-season, either?

[Deuce Bigalow]

You're right about '69, if Baylor would have produced at all in the Finals, he would have won a ring that season. And then even West choked in game seven of the '70 Finals. Had it not been for Chamberlain, on one leg mind you, putting up a 45-27 game six, that series would never have gone to a game seven. And, of course, Chamberlain was easily their best player in that game seven.
Talk about producing...

At the time Wilt's 8.8 ppg drop from his 69 regular season ppg to 69 finals ppg was the NBA record which would stand for over 40 years later being broken by Lebron's infamous 2011 finals drop of -8.9

Meanwhile Jerry just averaged 37.9 ppg along with over 7 assists per game...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Oh wait, in one thread you bash Wilt because he supposedly could not lead a team in scoring to a title, but then you praise West who couldn't win a title in leading his team in scoring in the post-season, either?
West at least made the Finals as alpha scorer many more times than Wilt. Wilt made it what? Once? West I'm guessing at least 6 times

[LAZERUSS]

Regarding West and Chamberlain...

the two played together for five season, but only four times in the post-season. West played brilliantly in '69, no doubt, but his COACH cost them a title. West again played brilliantly in the first five games of the '70 Finals, but then Chamberlain carried them to a game six, where...West puked all over the floor.

West did not play at all in the '71 post-season.

In the '72 post-season, West was simply awful, and shot a career low .376 from the field, including a horrific .325 in the Finals...and yet Chamberlain, with a 19 ppg, 23 rpg, .600 Final, which included a dominating clinching game five, led the Lakers to a title despite West's pathetic series, and of course, won the FMVP.

Then, West was simply ordinary in the '73 Finals, and in fact, was atrocious in the clinching game five loss, with a 5-17 game ( a game in which Chamberlain, in his last NBA game, put up a 23 point, 9-16, 21 rebound performance.)

[LAZERUSS]

West at least made the Finals as alpha scorer many more times than Wilt. Wilt made it what? Once? West I'm guessing at least 6 times

West's record against Russell's Celtics was worse, when leading his team as the "alpha" scorer, than what Chamberlain's was.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Regarding West and Chamberlain...

the two played together for five season, but only four times in the post-season. West played brilliantly in '69, no doubt, but his COACH cost them a title. West again played brilliantly in the first five games of the '70 Finals, but then Chamberlain carried them to a game six, where...West puked all over the floor.

West did not play at all in the '71 post-season.

In the '72 post-season, West was simply awful, and shot a career low .376 from the field, including a horrific .325 in the Finals...and yet Chamberlain, with a 19 ppg, 23 rpg, .600 Final, which included a dominating clinching game five, led the Lakers to a title despite West's pathetic series, and of course, won the FMVP.

Then, West was simply ordinary in the '73 Finals, and in fact, was atrocious in the clinching game five loss, with a 5-17 game ( a game in which Chamberlain, in his last NBA game, put up a 23 point, 9-16, 21 rebound performance.)
One things is clear - Chamberlain was the better player in the regular season, and West the better player in the postseason. This is not arguable.

[Deuce Bigalow]

West's record against Russell's Celtics was worse, when leading his team as the "alpha" scorer, than what Chamberlain's was.
I'm supposed to be impressed with ONE win over Bill? Please.

[LAZERUSS]

One things is clear - Chamberlain was the better player in the regular season, and West the better player in the postseason. This is not arguable.

Oh it isn't is it?

Chamberlain won more rings (and really, West would not have won even one without Chamberlain.)

Chamberlain shot a much higher FG%. And a "scoring" Wilt averaged 33 ppg on a .505 FG% in his first six post-seasons. Hell, he averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, probably 8+ bpg, and on a .515 FG% (in post-seasons that shot .425 BTW) over the course of his first seven post-seasons.

Where are West's FOUR 50+ point playoff games, including three in "must-win" situations? Chamberlain even had a 45 point game in a "must-win" game with a shot-jacking West for cryingoutloud.

Of course, West never beat Russell in the post-season, while Chamberlain not only beat him, he slaughtered him. My god, Wilt single-handedly carried his Warror teams as far as a prime West and Baylor did together.

[LAZERUSS]

I'm supposed to be impressed with ONE win over Bill? Please.

Well, one dominating win over Russell, while a prime West and Baylor, together, couldn't beat him. And, then West wouldn't have his lone ring had Chamberlain not carried them in '72.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Wilt, MJ, Magic, and Russell in tier one.

Kareem at #5.

Shaq and Duncan at 6-7.

Kobe, Bird, Hakeem, Moses, Dr. J. at 8-12.

West and Oscar at 13-14...

after that it doesn't really matter. Too many great players that you could lump together. Pettit, Hondo, Barry, Dirk, KG, Baylor, Barkley, Robinson, and some I probably missed...

:lol
One of the most delusional dudes ever.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Oh it isn't is it?

Chamberlain won more rings (and really, West would not have won even one without Chamberlain.)

Chamberlain shot a much higher FG%. And a "scoring" Wilt averaged 33 ppg on a .505 FG% in his first six post-seasons. Hell, he averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, probably 8+ bpg, and on a .515 FG% (in post-seasons that shot .425 BTW) over the course of his first seven post-seasons.

Where are West's FOUR 50+ point playoff games, including three in "must-win" situations? Chamberlain even had a 45 point game in a "must-win" game with a shot-jacking West for cryingoutloud.

Of course, West never beat Russell in the post-season, while Chamberlain not only beat him, he slaughtered him. My god, Wilt single-handedly carried his Warror teams as far as a prime West and Baylor did together.
FG% is one part of efficiency. Jerry West was actually MORE efficient than Wilt.

Playoffs
West- 29.1 ppg on 54.1 TS%
Wilt- 22.5 ppg on 52.2 TS%

Finals
West- 30.5 ppg on 53.3 TS%
Wilt- 18.6 ppg on 52.8 TS%

And the scoring...not even close.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Well, one dominating win over Russell, while a prime West and Baylor, together, couldn't beat him. And, then West wouldn't have his lone ring had Chamberlain not carried them in '72.
Well we all know what happened in '69 though don't we? Wilt prevented and cost West a championship after West put up the greatest Finals series since an MJ or Shaq Finals.

[LAZERUSS]

FG% is one part of efficiency. Jerry West was actually MORE efficient than Wilt.

Playoffs
West- 29.1 ppg on 54.1 TS%
Wilt- 22.5 ppg on 52.2 TS%

Finals
West- 30.5 ppg on 53.3 TS%
Wilt- 18.6 ppg on 52.8 TS%

Interesting, so you know for a FACT that Wit's ACTUAL post-season TS% was "only" .522...in an era when the NBA had 2-for-1's, and 3-for-2"s? Ask Fpliii about Chamberlain's ACTUAL TS%'s, which he has researched to have been at least 2% higher.

And, BTW, Chamberlain was actually being guarded by Russell (and his swarming Celtics) in eight of his post-season series, as well as Thurmond in three, and a prime Kareem in two.

[Alan Ogg]

Interesting, so you know for a FACT that Wit's ACTUAL post-season TS% was "only" .522...in an era when the NBA had 2-for-1's, and 3-for-2"s? Ask Fpliii about Chamberlain's ACTUAL TS%'s, which he has researched to have been at least 2% higher.

And, BTW, Chamberlain was actually being guarded by Russell (and his swarming Celtics) in eight of his post-season series, as well as Thurmond in three, and a prime Kareem in two.

You guys are actually comparing and arguing about the shooting %s between a center and a guard?

[LAZERUSS]

Well we all know what happened in '69 though don't we? Wilt prevented and cost West a championship after West put up the greatest Finals series since an MJ or Shaq Finals.

Not at all...Chamberlain put up a 12 ppg, 25 rpg, .500 FG% series, while Baylor single-handedly cost them games three, four, and seven with his atrocious shooting. But here again, if West was the supposed leader, then he deserves the blame just like you give to Wilt in '60, '62, '64, '65, and '66.

[LAZERUSS]

You guys are actually comparing and arguing about the shooting %s between a center and a guard?

Well, how about Wilt's DEFENSE against his OPPOSING centers io the post-season, then? Russell probably shot below 40% against Wilt in their eight post-season series. Nate shot about .375 in his three against Chamberlain. And a peak KAJ shot about .465 against Wilt in his two.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Well we all know what happened in '69 though don't we? Wilt prevented and cost West a championship after West put up the greatest Finals series since an MJ or Shaq Finals.
Wilt in game 4: Pathetic 8 points on 3-8 FG, 2-11 FT in a 1 point loss costing his team a 3-1 series lead :facepalm That's a "tier one" player? Not on my list.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt in game 4: Pathetic 8 points on 3-8 FG, 2-11 FT in a 1 point loss costing his team a 3-1 series lead :facepalm That's a "tier one" player? Not on my list.

Of course that was just ONE game...but let's take a closer look at that game shall we? Russell shot 2-12 from the field, and 2-4 from the line, and Wilt ourebounded him, 31-29. And Baylor, in the same game, shot 2-14 from the field, AND 1-6 from the line.

Nice try though...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not at all...Chamberlain put up a 12 ppg, 25 rpg, .500 FG% series, while Baylor single-handedly cost them games three, four, and seven with his atrocious shooting. But here again, if West was the supposed leader, then he deserves the blame just like you give to Wilt in '60, '62, '64, '65, and '66.
Hahahaha 12 ppg while averaging 21 ppg in the regular season, and what was his pathetic FT%? I'm guessing 34%? 50 Fg% while he shot over 58% in the regular season. Oh lawd. No West doesn't get blame because he RAISED his game in the playoffs and especially the NBA Finals while Wilt became The "Big Dipper" while West became "Mr. Clutch".

[Deuce Bigalow]

Of course that was just ONE game...but let's take a closer look at that game shall we? Russell shot 2-12 from the field, and 2-4 from the line, and Wilt ourebounded him, 31-29. And Baylor, in the same game, shot 2-14 from the field, AND 1-6 from the line.

Nice try though...
Baylor was on his last legs and was the 3rd option. 2-11 FT by Wilt though. Two for eleven lol.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW Duece, how did Russell beat Chamberlain in the '65 EDF's? In a series in which Chamberlain outscored him, per game, 30.1 ppg to 15.6 ppg; outrebounded Russell, 31.4 rpg to 25.2 rpg; outshot Russell from the LINE, .583 to .472 (and OUTSCORED him from the LINE, 49-17); outshot him from the field by a .555 to .447 margin; outshot him in terms of a true TS% of .560 to .450; and even outblocked him in the games we have by a solid margin? In a series that went seven games, and the 7th game was decided by one point?

Let me guess...Wilt shot 6-13 from the line in that 7th game, right? But let's forget that Chamberlain shot 12-15 from the field, while Russell shot 1-2 from the line, and 7-16 from the field, too, right?

[LAZERUSS]

Baylor was on his last legs and was the 3rd option. 2-11 FT by Wilt though. Two for eleven lol.

Obviously the Lakers would have been better off without Baylor at all in that series, don't you think? Incidently, that "third wheel" took far more shots than Chamberlain did in that series.

[LAZERUSS]

Hahahaha 12 ppg while averaging 21 ppg in the regular season, and what was his pathetic FT%? I'm guessing 34%? 50 Fg% while he shot over 58% in the regular season. Oh lawd. No West doesn't get blame because he RAISED his game in the playoffs and especially the NBA Finals while Wilt became The "Big Dipper" while West became "Mr. Clutch".

Again, West in the '72 post-season...vs. Wilt in the '72 post-season. Who was the "dipper" and who was "Mr. Clutch" in THAT post-season?

[Deuce Bigalow]

BTW Duece, how did Russell beat Chamberlain in the '65 EDF's? In a series in which Chamberlain outscored him, per game, 30.1 ppg to 15.6 ppg; outrebounded Russell, 31.4 rpg to 25.2 rpg; outshot Russell from the LINE, .583 to .472 (and OUTSCORED him from the LINE, 49-17); outshot him from the field by a .555 to .447 margin; outshot him in terms of a true TS% of .560 to .450; and even outblocked him in the games we have by a solid margin? In a series that went seven games, and the 7th game was decided by one point?

Let me guess...Wilt shot 6-13 from the line in that 7th game, right? But let's forget that Chamberlain shot 12-15 from the field, while Russell shot 1-2 from the line, and 7-16 from the field, too, right?
Impressive by The Big Dipper. I'm sure the minutes per game were different by a large margin but nonetheless impressive. Russell might have been a troll and made Wilt think he could win, seriously, that laugh that he has is not normal that is for sure...

[LAZERUSS]

Impressive by The Big Dipper. I'm sure the minutes per game were different by a large margin but nonetheless impressive. Russell might have been a troll and made Wilt think he could win, seriously, that laugh that he has is not normal that is for sure...

Russell played exactly one minute less than Chamberlain did in that entire series (Wilt played every minute BTW.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Obviously the Lakers would have been better off without Baylor at all in that series, don't you think? Incidently, that "third wheel" took far more shots than Chamberlain did in that series.
Baylor had 32 points and scored the last 12 points for LA in game 2 according to webuns and had 26 points in game 6. So no. And Wilt could have taken more shots if he wanted, after all this guy was the king of taking shots as we all know he had seasons of over 30+ FGA and under 3 APG.

[LAZERUSS]

Baylor had 32 points and scored the last 12 points for LA in game 2 according to webuns and had 26 points in game 5. So no. And Wilt could have taken more shots if he wanted, after all this guy was the king of taking shots as we all know he had seasons of over 30+ FGA and under 3 APG.

Maybe you should ask Van Breda Kolff why he had Baylor shooting 102 more FGAs in that post-season then.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Again, West in the '72 post-season...vs. Wilt in the '72 post-season. Who was the "dipper" and who was "Mr. Clutch" in THAT post-season?
West's 71-72 season was the last of prime West.

[LAZERUSS]

West's 71-72 season was the last of prime West.

He had a great regular season, though. In fact, somehow he finished ahead of Wilt in the MVP voting (2nd to Chamberlain's third, and both behind Kareem.)

But, in that post-season, it was WILT who came up huge, while West was atrocious.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Maybe you should ask Van Breda Kolff why he had Baylor shooting 102 more FGAs in that post-season then.
Maybe you should ask Wilt why he averaged only 11.7 ppg in the Finals while averaging 20.5 ppg in the regular season. Or why Wilt only shot 24-66 from the line in the series.

[LAZERUSS]

Maybe you should ask Wilt why he averaged only 11.7 ppg in the Finals while averaging 20.5 ppg in the regular season. Or why Wilt only shot 24-66 from the line in the series.

About his scoring...again, ask his COACH.

About his FT shooting? Hell, he was awful in '67 and '72, and yet he still won two rings.

[Deuce Bigalow]

He had a great regular season, though. In fact, somehow he finished ahead of Wilt in the MVP voting (2nd to Chamberlain's third, and both behind Kareem.)

But, in that post-season, it was WILT who came up huge, while West was atrocious.
West gave it his all. A remarkable playoff career '62 to '70.
31.8 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 5.9 apg, 48.3 fg%, 81.3 ft%, 55.6 ts% in 108 playoff games from '62-'70 :bowdown:
Retired with basically every playoff scoring record :bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

About his scoring...again, ask his COACH.

About his FT shooting? Hell, he was awful in '67 and '72, and yet he still won two rings.
This time, along with MANY other times, his freethrow shooting bit him in the ass.

[LAZERUSS]

West gave it his all. A remarkable playoff career '62 to '70.
31.8 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 5.9 apg, 48.3 fg%, 81.3 ft%, 55.6 ts% in 108 playoff games from '62-'70 :bowdown:

I am not arguing your take on West.

But, Chamberlain from '60 thur '68...

29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, .518 FG%, .477 FT%, .522 TS% (again, his ACTUAL TS% was probably about 54-55 %) in 80 playoff games. BTW, his PER was 27.0 to West's 23.7 in that comparison.

And again, in those 80 games, Chamberlain faced Russell in 42 of them, and Thurmond in six more. And he easily outrebounded both of them, and held them to a probably a collective .390 FG% in that span.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I am not arguing your take on West.

But, Chamberlain from '60 thur '68...

29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, .518 FG%, .477 FT%, .522 TS% (again, his ACTUAL TS% was probably about 54-55 %) in 80 playoff games. BTW, his PER was 27.0 to West's 23.7 in that comparison.

And again, in those 80 games, Chamberlain faced Russell in 42 of them, and Thurmond in six more. And he easily outrebounded both of them, and held them to a probably a collective .390 FG% in that span.
Wilt's regular season numbers were 36.0 ppg on 53.8 TS% during that span so he declined by a large margin, while West improved.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's regular season numbers were 36.0 ppg on 53.8 TS% during that span so he declined by a large margin, while West improved.

wait...he missed the playoffs in his '63 season, in a season in which he averaged 45 ppg and on a TS% of .550. So, you have to subtract that season from your "post-season" numbers.

And again, Chamberlain faced RUSSELL in 42 of his 80 playoff games to that point (as well as Thurmond in six more.)

To give you a better perspective, what were Shaq's post-season averages against the Spurs in his six playoff series against them, as compared to his regular season NBA averages? I can guarantee you they were MUCH lower.

[Deuce Bigalow]

wait...he missed the playoffs in his '63 season, in a season in which he averaged 45 ppg and on a TS% of .550. So, you have to subtract that season from your "post-season" numbers.

And again, Chamberlain faced RUSSELL in 42 of his 80 playoff games to that point (as well as Thurmond in six more.)

To give you a better perspective, what were Shaq's post-season averages against the Spurs in his six playoff series against them, as compared to his regular season NBA averages? I can guarantee you they were MUCH lower.
Yeah he led his team to a 31-49 record. His "scoring prime" stats were overrated and did not have as much impact as you would think.

[LAZERUSS]

Yeah he led his team to a 31-49 record. His "scoring prime" stats were overrated and did not have as much impact as you would think.

Funny thing, ...

The very next season, his new coach, Alex Hannum, conducted a pre-season scrimmage with the veterans, sans Wilt, against a bunch of rookies and retreads, and guess who won?

BTW, Chamberlain then took that same basic roster to a 48-32 record, and a seven game playoff series win against a Hawks team that was vastly superior, players 2-6, and then to the Finals, where they lost 4-1 to the Celtics and their EIGHT HOFers (and with the last two losess decided in the waning seconds.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Funny thing, ...

The very next season, his new coach, Alex Hannum, conducted a pre-season scrimmage with the veterans, sans Wilt, against a bunch of rookies and retreads, and guess who won?

BTW, Chamberlain then took that same basic roster to a 48-32 record, and a seven game playoff series win against a Hawks team that was vastly superior, players 2-6, and then to the Finals, where they lost 4-1 to the Celtics and their EIGHT HOFers (and with the last two losess decided in the waning seconds.)
Then a year later he took his team to a 10-28 record and was luckily traded to a playoff team. So he led his team to two well below sub .500 records in three years. Kind of shows proof that his stats are more due to volume than impact.

[LAZERUSS]

Then a year later he took his team to a 10-28 record and was luckily traded to a playoff team. So he led his team to two well below sub .500 records in three years. Kind of shows proof that his stats are more due to volume than impact.

Wait...this was an ILL Chamberlain (who still averaged 39 ppg before the trade BTW)...who was traded for THREE players mid-season, to a Sixer team that had gone 34-46 the year before, and missed the playoffs.

Chamberlain then took that 40-40 team past the 48-32 Royals in the first round of the playoffs, and then guided them to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-18 Celtics...with a 30-31 .555 series.

BTW, in his 63-64 season, on his 48-32 team...Wilt's second best player was Tom Meschery, who averaged 13 ppg.

Think about this...

Chamberlain was traded away, and his Warriors went 7-36 without him.

They then moved Nate Thurmond to his natural center position, where he would be a HOFer, AND, they drafted Rick Barry. How did the team of Nate and Barry do that season? They went 35-45.

But, it gets better. The Warriors added Jeff Mullins, and Clyde Lee to their 65-66 roster. Rick Barry would go on to average 35.6 ppg in that 66-67 season, and Nate Thurmond would have the greatest season of his career (an 18-20 season, and he would finsih behind Wilt in the MVP voting.)

So, here was a Warrior team with a peak Barry and Thurmond, and with Meschery averaging 11 ppg...and as their SEVENTH best player...and they could only go 44-37. Oh, and they were blown out by Wilt's 68-13 Sixers in the Finals.

How come a LOADED Warriors team in 66-67, couldn't produce a better record than Chamberlain's pathetic 63-64 squad?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wait...this was an ILL Chamberlain (who still averaged 39 ppg before the trade BTW)...who was traded for THREE players mid-season, to a Sixer team that had gone 34-46 the year before, and missed the playoffs.

Chamberlain then took that 40-40 team past the 48-32 Royals in the first round of the playoffs, and then guided them to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-18 Celtics...with a 30-31 .555 series.

BTW, in his 63-64 season, on his 48-32 team...Wilt's second best player was Tom Meschery, who averaged 13 ppg.

Think about this...

Chamberlain was traded away, and his Warriors went 7-36 without him.

They then moved Nate Thurmond to his natural center position, where he would be a HOFer, AND, they drafted Rick Barry. How did the team of Nate and Barry do that season? They went 35-45.

But, it gets better. The Warriors added Jeff Mullins, and Clyde Lee to their 65-66 roster. Rick Barry would go on to average 35.6 ppg in that 66-67 season, and Nate Thurmond would have the greatest season of his career (an 18-20 season, and he would finsih behind Wilt in the MVP voting.)

So, here was a Warrior team with a peak Barry and Thurmond, and with Meschery averaging 11 ppg...and as their SEVENTH best player...and they could only go 44-37. Oh, and they were blown out by Wilt's 68-13 Sixers in the Finals.

How come a LOADED Warriors team in 66-67, couldn't produce a better record than Chamberlain's pathetic 63-64 squad?
10-28 is on pace for 22-60. Ouch. Has any star player led a team to a lesser record? Maybe, maybe not. This is from the supposed "tier one" player lol. And lets not forget he played every game too. How about being swept by a losing team while having HCA in '61?

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, between 98-99 and 03-04, Shaq averaged about 27.5 ppg, 12.0 rpg, and shot about .575 from the field in the regular season.

And in those seasons, he faced the Spurs five times in the playoffs, and averaged about 24 ppg, 13.5 rpg, and shot about .530. Much like Chamberlain against Russell, his post-season offensive numbers declined from his regular seasons...especially his FG%. (Although, to his credit, and also like Chamberlain, he rebounded better.)

But, keep in mind that Chamberlain faced Russell in 49 post-season games, while Shaq faced the Spurs in 30 playoff games (25 in those years between '99 and '04.)

Also keep in mind that the post-season eFG% was considerably higher in those post-seasons than what it was in Wilt's post-seasons against Russell.

And, as a sidenote, while Chamberlain's numbers declined in the post-season against Russell as compared to his regular season numbers against the rest of the NBA, in his first six post-season series against Russell, he still averaged about 29 ppg, 29 rpg, and shot about 50% (in post-seasons in which the NBA shot about .425) against him. All while badly outscoring, outrebounding, and outshooting him.