Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Tim Duncan

[Lebron23]

Rank these players from Best to Worst.

[plowking]

Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson

[Alan Ogg]

Magic
Bird
Duncan

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Bird
Magic
Duncan

[SHAQisGOAT]

Peak:
Bird
Magic
Duncan
(all close but extremely between Magic and Duncan because of defense, but I still would got Magic higher)

For (my) all-time list, it would be the same.

[moe94]

Bird
Duncan
Magic

[MMM]

Bird
Duncan
Magic

[Harison]

By impact and peak:

Bird
Duncan
Magic

By ranking:

Bird/Magic
Duncan

[Odinn]

Peak wise;
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson

Career wise;
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Tim Duncan

[ripthekik]

All above Lebron.

[fpliii]

Bird
Duncan
Magic

My ordering used to be flipped, but since learning more about these guys I've settled on the above. I don't think there's much else out there that would force me to reevaluate again, but I'm open to hearing any case.

[B-hoop]

Bird
Duncan
Magic

My ordering used to be flipped, but since learning more about these guys I've settled on the above. I don't think there's much else out there that would force me to reevaluate again, but I'm open to hearing any case.

What's your top 10 Goat list? Just curious

[Pointguard]

Magic had more control of the game than any player ever. No other player comes close in controlling pace, getting easy baskets and getting teammates involved. People talk about his defense but his record against great offensive teams was crazy because they knew an open style game meant Magic's powers would be unleashed. Even a disciplined Celtic offense made mistakes worrying about Magic"s defense to offense capability.

Duncan along with Magic and Russell should have the winning category over hyped. These guys had a real relationship with winning so it should be a real factor in evaluating them.

Bird had the most impressive peak but it was only three years and Magic"s pacing beat them once in that three year span. Bird was one the games most deadly offensive weapons ever.

That's my order.

[scm5]

It's crazy how little respect Magic is getting in this thread.

[fpliii]

What's your top 10 Goat list? Just curious

Don't have one, sorry.

[DMAVS41]

Magic
Duncan
Bird

[hateraid]

Magic- Clear cut greatest at his position. The ability to play 5 positions and a true winner

Duncan
Bird

[inclinerator]

bird
magic
duncan

[Odinn]

Magic- Clear cut greatest at his position. The ability to play 5 positions and a true winner

Duncan
Bird
With this kinda logic, Magic and Jordan above all. Right?:facepalm Magic should be ranked over Russell, Wilt, KAJ, Shaq, Hakeem, and even Moses because he was the greatest at his position by a larger margin compared to other 3 positions?:facepalm :facepalm

[Alan Ogg]

Magic had more control of the game than any player ever. No other player comes close in controlling pace, getting easy baskets and getting teammates involved. People talk about his defense but his record against great offensive teams was crazy because they knew an open style game meant Magic's powers would be unleashed. Even a disciplined Celtic offense made mistakes worrying about Magic"s defense to offense capability.

Duncan along with Magic and Russell should have the winning category over hyped. These guys had a real relationship with winning so it should be a real factor in evaluating them.

Bird had the most impressive peak but it was only three years and Magic"s pacing beat them once in that three year span. Bird was one the games most deadly offensive weapons ever.

That's my order.

Bird's peak was only three years?
http://i.imgur.com/D5YRbPA.jpg

[hateraid]

With this kinda logic, Magic and Jordan above all. Right?:facepalm Magic should be ranked over Russell, Wilt, KAJ, Shaq, Hakeem, and even Moses because he was the greatest at his position by a larger margin compared to other 3 positions?:facepalm :facepalm

Relax, that wasn't my main criteria. Kind of nit picky there. I'm not one to make long winded points.
But yeah, I rank Magic over those players NOT because he's the GOAT at his position but by his credentials, his play on the court, and he's a winner

[Sarcastic]

1 Magic
2 Bird

4 Duncan


Duncan is an all time great, but honestly he doesn't belong in the same category as Bird and Magic. He's been more of an opportunistic winner (winning in down years). Spurs have never won back to back, and never even been to back to back finals. He was never the undisputed best player in the game, the way Magic and Bird were. Shaq was always better.

They are all top 10 players, but Bird and Magic and at a different level.

[Odinn]

Relax, that wasn't my main criteria. Kind of nit picky there. I'm not one to make long winded points.
But yeah, I rank Magic over those players NOT because he's the GOAT at his position but by his credentials, his play on the court, and he's a winner
Let's not act like Bird or Duncan aren't winners. How many names you can list in the consensus top 10-12 without being a winner? Or how many of them didn't have a low point?

If I remember correctly, Bird lost 9 times with HCA.
Tragic Johnson in 1984. The Lakers should have been in the NBA Finals in 1986.
Duncan missed a critical shot in 2013 NBA Finals. He lost a series from 2-0 lead in 2004 against the Lakers. You can add 2012 WCF but he wasn't in his prime tho.

All three names are winners with some doubtful memories. It's nothing like 'Bill Russell is greater than Wilt Chamberlain because Russell was a winner'.

[Champ]

Bird's peak was only three years?
http://i.imgur.com/D5YRbPA.jpg

Good graphic.

While most regard Bird's absolute peak as his three MVP years, he played at an elite level throughout the first 9 years of his career (pre-injury), and could easily have had one and possibly two more MVPs to his credit.

Beginning as far back as the 80-81 season, Bird was at least in the conversation as the game's best player, even though that wasn't something he achieved consensus on until 83-84.

[Harison]

Magic had more control of the game than any player ever. No other player comes close in controlling pace, getting easy baskets and getting teammates involved. People talk about his defense but his record against great offensive teams was crazy because they knew an open style game meant Magic's powers would be unleashed. Even a disciplined Celtic offense made mistakes worrying about Magic"s defense to offense capability.

Duncan along with Magic and Russell should have the winning category over hyped. These guys had a real relationship with winning so it should be a real factor in evaluating them.

Bird had the most impressive peak but it was only three years and Magic"s pacing beat them once in that three year span. Bird was one the games most deadly offensive weapons ever.

That's my order.

I actually started watching NBA because of Magic vs Bird, and it wasnt 3 years Bird was better - he was better from the 1st day in NBA till he succumbed to back injury, i.e. most if his career. And it was an unanimous opinion of vast majority of fans and experts, much like almost everyone have Jordan as GOAT now. Only after Bird's back issues Magic was begun to be considered as better at that point.

I dont know why you so high on Magic, he was never considered as good as Bird in their primes (or even as rookies). Yes he is a GOAT PG, but Bird is GOAT SF.

Speaking about GOAT offensive players, Bird is right up there with Jordan, Magic trails a bit behind, and Bird was clearly better defender too.

[Black and White]

Glad to see Bird getting some love here, for me it's:

Bird
Magic
Duncan

[tpols]

Bird
Magic
Duncan

[Thorpesaurous]

I go Bird Magic Duncan, but I grew up watching Bird in the Garden, and have almost no objectivity at all.

That said, Magic is perhaps the games all time most unique player, and is hard to put up against other players like this. Both guys are better defensively than they're historically regarded, because neither was a stopper, but Bird was instinctively a great defender, and Magic doesn't get credit for simply occupying space.

I also think there will come a day when someone spits out some defensive metric and people start looking at Duncan in an even higher regard, as his impact seems to be beyond most traditional measures on that end.

But to me, it's Bird's peak that seperates him. And one of the things that I've always argued in Bird's favor is that I feel he's perhaps the best building block on the truely elite list, because even more than Magic, Larry is able to play without the ball. He can act as a spacer, he can work in the post, he can work off the dribble, he can facilitate offense, he can play in the high post, he can work out of wing isolation. He has more fittability, which is not a word, than all the other greats who dominated their spots so much they didn't get around much.


All of them are in the truely unique group of guys who won multiple MVPs, AND multiple Titles, which to me is where I cut off my list from first tier to second. And it requires some tough cuts, but it's odd how much that list tends to align with the traditional Big 6 of Magic, Bird, Jordan, Wilt, Russ, Kareem, and seems almost silly to me to cut Bron and Duncan off of it because of a personal preference for Shaq or Kobe or whoever. There's no shame in that second tier. But only a handfull of guys got that accomplishment done.

[NumberSix]

Bird
Duncan
Magic

[magic chiongson]

magic
duncan
bird


y'all should listen to an unbiased guy like me

[Pointguard]

I actually started watching NBA because of Magic vs Bird, and it wasnt 3 years Bird was better - he was better from the 1st day in NBA till he succumbed to back injury, i.e. most if his career. And it was an unanimous opinion of vast majority of fans and experts, much like almost everyone have Jordan as GOAT now. Only after Bird's back issues Magic was begun to be considered as better at that point.

I dont know why you so high on Magic, he was never considered as good as Bird in their primes (or even as rookies). Yes he is a GOAT PG, but Bird is GOAT SF.

Speaking about GOAT offensive players, Bird is right up there with Jordan, Magic trails a bit behind, and Bird was clearly better defender too.
Before '84 Birds playoff performances weren't good while Magics were at times great. While Bird was a notch above Magic in the regular season, Magic was more than a notch above Bird in the postseason. Magic controlled how the postseason games were played. Bird was inconsistent til 84 and you couldn't count on him in the playoffs.

If you consider control of pace part of defense and defense to offense part of defense -as Magic dictated the game better than anyone, Magic was far better than Bird defensively.

[Harison]

Before '84 Birds playoff performances weren't good while Magics were at times great. While Bird was a notch above Magic in the regular season, Magic was more than a notch above Bird in the postseason. Magic controlled how the postseason games were played. Bird was inconsistent til 84 and you couldn't count on him in the playoffs.

If you consider control of pace part of defense and defense to offense part of defense -as Magic dictated the game better than anyone, Magic was far better than Bird defensively.

Very strange post, Bird was clearly better in the RS, and usually improved his play in PO as well. And considering Magic had his "Tragic" performances (Bird never had such bad meltdowns), I dont see how you can say you can rely more on Magic than Bird in the Playoffs. The opposite is true.

Speaking about games on the line, Bird is the only one All-time who can challenge Jordan as GOAT clutch. Magic? Not so much. :(

And defense... if you really want to claim "Magic was far better than Bird defensively", then I rest my case, its a lost cause :confusedshrug: You are better poster than this.

[moe94]

Magic was far better than Bird defensively.
:roll:

[Legends66NBA7]

Another thread that shows that the "two-way player" logic doesn't always mean much. Although, I think it's pretty close between all these guys.

[moe94]

Another thread that shows that the "two-way player" logic doesn't always mean much. Although, I think it's pretty close between all these guys.

Give me Duncan over both in a draft. :confusedshrug:

[Legends66NBA7]

Give me Duncan over both in a draft. :confusedshrug:

This doesn't mean anything either.

Just because you would take Duncan in a draft over both, doesn't mean the majority does. That's my point. Regardless of how great Duncan is as a two-player, pretty much the majority of this thread considers Bird the better player. Duncan's been coming 3rd more often than 1st.

[moe94]

This doesn't mean anything either.

Just because you would take Duncan in a draft over both, doesn't mean the majority does. That's my point. Regardless of how great Duncan is as a two-player, pretty much the majority of this thread considers Bird the better player. Duncan's been coming 3rd more often than 1st.

You have it twisted. I have Bird ranked the highest, too. The thing is, regardless of Bird peaking higher and having a great career, I feel as if Duncan would be a lot easier to build around. Basically, I'd take my chances with Duncan every time.

[Legends66NBA7]

You have it twisted. I have Bird ranked the highest, too. The thing is, regardless of Bird peaking higher and having a great career, I feel as if Duncan would be a lot easier to build around. Basically, I'd take my chances with Duncan every time.

That's understandable. I can't blame anyone for taking a big first. Another reason I would see Duncan getting drafted first because he has more longevity over the 2 and last year proved he can still play at an elite level which almost got his team another title.

[tpols]

That's understandable. I can't blame anyone for taking a big first. Another reason I would see Duncan getting drafted first because he has more longevity over the 2 and last year proved he can still play at an elite level which almost got his team another title.
He also has benefitted hugely from his team and modern medicine though.. guy was at role player level at one point before 2013 then resurged just this past year. Who knows what theyre pumping into their blood but I guarantee its better than what larry and magic had

[bizil]

GOAT wise:

Magic
Bird
Duncan

Peak:

Magic-Bird (tie)
Duncan

I think what hurts Duncan to a degree is that when compared to guys like Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, and Hakeem, he doesn't come across quite as individually dominant as those guys. And in terms of Russell, he's the ultimate winner. Even though Timmy was clearly a beast and dominant player. And his resume is on par in many ways with those guys. And due to the fact he's a 7 footer, ultimately in the top 10 GOAT annuals, he's gonna be put against centers. Hell since the days of Bob Pettit, there weren't any PF's regarded in the top 10 GOAT until Tim accumulated his resume. As great as Mailman, Barkley, Hayes, and McHale were, I don't think any of them were regarded as top 10 GOAT. So Tim basically is going up against the most dominant position in the annuals of NBA history.

[DMAVS41]

He also has benefitted hugely from his team and modern medicine though.. guy was at role player level at one point before 2013 then resurged just this past year. Who knows what theyre pumping into their blood but I guarantee its better than what larry and magic had

Longevity between eras is very difficult because of exactly what you say.

However, Duncan really only dipped in 11 and honestly it had more to do with minutes per game and the role he played on offense. Duncan was still Duncan. Give 11 Duncan 3 more shots a game and 2 more minutes per game (like he had in 13)...and you are going to get somewhere around 17/10/3.

Point being...the supposed "drop off" for Duncan is not nearly as big as people make it out to be.

[The Real JW]

Magic
Bird
Duncan

[tpols]

Longevity between eras is very difficult because of exactly what you say.

However, Duncan really only dipped in 11 and honestly it had more to do with minutes per game and the role he played on offense. Duncan was still Duncan. Give 11 Duncan 3 more shots a game and 2 more minutes per game (like he had in 13)...and you are going to get somewhere around 17/10/3.

Point being...the supposed "drop off" for Duncan is not nearly as big as people make it out to be.
I mean.. he played less minutes for a reason. And that is because he was pretty much broken down. His knees are/were shot.

They had to have had him on a new regimen last year.. or maybe he wanted to prove that he wasnt done and got some motivation. Either way 13/9, 15/9 is a clear dip from prime duncan..

[Psileas]

Very strange post, Bird was clearly better in the RS, and usually improved his play in PO as well. And considering Magic had his "Tragic" performances (Bird never had such bad meltdowns), I dont see how you can say you can rely more on Magic than Bird in the Playoffs. The opposite is true.

Speaking about games on the line, Bird is the only one All-time who can challenge Jordan as GOAT clutch. Magic? Not so much. :(

And defense... if you really want to claim "Magic was far better than Bird defensively", then I rest my case, its a lost cause :confusedshrug: You are better poster than this.

Magic did not have "tragic performances", more like "unclutch moments". Yes, he came off as unclutch in 1984. But, seeing the overall picture, Magic would one way or the other deliver in the playoffs. The only series that he visibly struggled seems to be the short 1981 series (who knows what would happen if the series had its modern length), and even then he averaged 17/14/7, but on bad percentages, mainly due to one of his worst playoff games (game 3).
In the "tragic" series, he averaged 18/8/14/56% FG. That's still a way better series than, say, LeBron's in 2007 or Kobe's in 2004, which were legitimately bad series for superstar players. Magic had no such Finals. There wasn't a series where he wouldn't stand out in something, apart from his brief 1996 comeback.

BTW, if Magic wasn't also one of the game's GOAT clutch players, people wouldn't make such a huge deal out of moments like those 1984 ones. What makes it special is exactly the fact that Magic was among the last players you'd expect to perform a crucial mistake - and that he seemingly performed in that series more crucial mistakes than in the rest of his career.

[rmt]

1 Magic
2 Bird

4 Duncan


Duncan is an all time great, but honestly he doesn't belong in the same category as Bird and Magic. He's been more of an opportunistic winner (winning in down years). Spurs have never won back to back, and never even been to back to back finals. He was never the undisputed best player in the game, the way Magic and Bird were. Shaq was always better.

They are all top 10 players, but Bird and Magic and at a different level.

Bird's Celtics also never won back to back.

Depends on what one values (peak, career, etc).

My ranking:
1. Magic
2. Duncan
3. Bird

For me, I don't put as much stock in peak, I prefer to look at the entire career. As long as a player does whatever it takes to win, I'm okay with that. The Finals game that Magic played center when KAJ went down sticks out. I feel that Magic and Duncan (together with Russell) were great "winners." For me, Duncan's defense puts him slightly ahead of Bird. Also, Bird and Magic both played only 13 years. From the drafting point of view, Duncan will be at 18 years when his contract ends next year, and maybe he'll play beyond that. He's still one of the best bigs in the game at almost 38.

[DMAVS41]

I mean.. he played less minutes for a reason. And that is because he was pretty much broken down. His knees are/were shot.

They had to have had him on a new regimen last year.. or maybe he wanted to prove that he wasnt done and got some motivation. Either way 13/9, 15/9 is a clear dip from prime duncan..

From prime? Oh...of course...he's old.

By dip I meant something other than the gradual decline we see in virtually all players around 35 years old.

Sometimes players have worse years and then bounce back. Kobe, for example, declined a bit in 11 numbers wise. But he was also playing less minutes.

Duncan played 28 minutes in 11...in his prime he was playing 6 or 7 more minutes a game...and he was more the focal point like he was in 13. He lost touches and minutes based on how the Spurs were playing.

I don't think it's that crazy to see a player battle some age/injury issues for a year or two...and then come back with a great year. Especially if the team changes how it plays a bit in the process as well.

Virtually all players have declined noticeably by the time they hit 34 years old. Even if it doesn't show up in the numbers that much...

[Iceman#44]

1 Bird 2 Magic 3 Duncan

[MJistheGOAT]

1 Bird 2 Magic 3 Duncan

[SHAQisGOAT]

Before '84 Birds playoff performances weren't good while Magics were at times great. While Bird was a notch above Magic in the regular season, Magic was more than a notch above Bird in the postseason. Magic controlled how the postseason games were played. Bird was inconsistent til 84 and you couldn't count on him in the playoffs.

If you consider control of pace part of defense and defense to offense part of defense -as Magic dictated the game better than anyone, Magic was far better than Bird defensively.

Weren't good? Gtfoh.
In 1980 led a team that had previously the 2nd worst record in the league to the ECF.
In 1981 he majorly outplayed the MVP Julius Erving, winning the ECF (true Finals) coming down from Philly's 3-1 lead. Then in the Finals against the Rockets, imho the true FMVP, only player in history to put up 15 or more points, 15 or more rebounds and 7 or more assists, in a Finals series.
In 1982 yeah, you can say he had a sub-par post-season.
In 1983 I won't talk much because he was injured.

And don't forget Magic was drafted into a pretty good, established team, with a top3 GOAT, still in his prime, to lead them, all-time great Jamal Wilkes, with a really good PG to learn from in Norm Nixon, Cooper started playing at the same time. Take someone like Kareem out of the Lakers, replace with someone at Parish's level or so, and they most likely ain't winning during those years. Better yet, can you imagine Bird being drafted to that Lakers' team? :eek:
Bird was drafted into a team full of "problems", one of the worst in the league, and he was their best player, leading them. McHale only started his prime like in 84 and Parish was already 27 when he joined the C's, never considered much at all before.

Magic better than Bird defensively? :wtf: :wtf: :facepalm :facepalm :lol
You just showed your knowledge there, no need to keep on with this.

[LAZERUSS]

Very strange post, Bird was clearly better in the RS, and usually improved his play in PO as well. And considering Magic had his "Tragic" performances (Bird never had such bad meltdowns), I dont see how you can say you can rely more on Magic than Bird in the Playoffs. The opposite is true.

Speaking about games on the line, Bird is the only one All-time who can challenge Jordan as GOAT clutch. Magic? Not so much. :(

And defense... if you really want to claim "Magic was far better than Bird defensively", then I rest my case, its a lost cause :confusedshrug: You are better poster than this.

Hmmm...

Thanks to Colts18 BTW...


Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, if you include the post-seasons...

Bird was the better player in '81 (although even his Finals were nothing to write home about), '84 (again...BARELY), and '86.

Magic was better in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, and '91...

And Magic was CLEARLY the better post-season player.

[Round Mound]

Put Them On Bad Teams

1-Duncan
2-Bird
3-Magic

[Sarcastic]

Put Them On Bad Teams

1-Duncan
2-Bird
3-Magic

Another garbage post from Round Mound.

What are you basing that on? The number of sharts you blew today?

[DMAVS41]

Another garbage post from Round Mound.

What are you basing that on? The number of sharts you blew today?

Why is that garbage? Duncan can probably do the most with the least out of them. A legit top 10 defensive big of all time to go along with a beast offensively as well?

Definitely think Duncan is best suited to win the most with the least out of the 3.

[wakencdukest]

Magic
Bird
Duncan

[moe94]

Another garbage post from Round Mound.

What are you basing that on? The number of sharts you blew today?

Duncan is the easiest to build around, clearly. You can make a case for either Bird and Magic for second place. Exactly what possessed you to attack him as if he was being controversial? Did he shit on you in another thread? :confusedshrug:

[Lebron23]

Duncan is the easiest to build around, clearly. You can make a case for either Bird and Magic for second place. Exactly what possessed you to attack him as if he was being controversial? Did he shit on you in another thread? :confusedshrug:



Melo and Knicks fan.

[Sarcastic]

Duncan is the easiest to build around, clearly. You can make a case for either Bird and Magic for second place. Exactly what possessed you to attack him as if he was being controversial? Did he shit on you in another thread? :confusedshrug:

Of course not. He just so happens to be one of the most agenda driven posters here. 99% of his posts are to boost Barkley as being better than he was.

[moe94]

Of course not. He just so happens to be one of the most agenda driven posters here. 99% of his posts are to boost Barkley as being better than he was.

He's a gimmick poster. He's always respectful, something that is rare for gimmick posters. He's pretty damn funny sometimes. He's a major Barkley stan in a sea of boring stans. I like him. :confusedshrug:

[Sarcastic]

Why is that garbage? Duncan can probably do the most with the least out of them. A legit top 10 defensive big of all time to go along with a beast offensively as well?

Definitely think Duncan is best suited to win the most with the least out of the 3.

I mean that is just your opinion with nothing factual to back it up.

In my opinion Magic lifted his teammates more than anyone in history.

Again nothing factual to back it up. But tomato-tohmahto I guess.

[moe94]

I mean that is just your opinion with nothing factual to back it up. .

Well, you can make it a bit more objective when you take into account teammates, records, how much help they needed to compete, how long they were able to anchor teams, etc

Just feel as if Duncan is a favorite.

[Sarcastic]

Well, you can make it a bit more objective when you take into account teammates, records, how much help they needed to compete, how long they were able to anchor teams, etc

Just feel as if Duncan is a favorite.

It's not a disrespect to Duncan to say he is behind Bird and Magic. He is a top 10 player easily.

It's just that Bird and Magic are basketball royalty. They are more likely to be on the Mt Rushmore of bball than Duncan.

[Round Mound]

[B]Stop The Hate! Im Just Saying The Truth. Put Them On Bad Teams and Duncan Would Have More Impact Individually, same with Barkley. Out of Them 3 1st Its Duncan, Then Bird. Magic Had Everybody To Make Better: Kareem (Best Laker Player Till 1985), McAdoo, Nixon, Cooper, Worthy, Scott, Ac Green, Divac, Wooldridge..etc. Bird also Had a Good Cast But McHale Wasn

[moe94]

Round Mound stays GOAT. Tell em.

[Black and White]

[QUOTE=Round Mound]Stop The Hate! Im Just Saying The Truth. Put Them On Bad Teams and Duncan Would Have More Impact Individually, same with Barkley. Out of Them 3 1st Its Duncan, Then Bird. Magic Had Everybody To Make Better: Kareem (Best Laker Player Till 1985), McAdoo, Nixon, Cooper, Worthy, Scott, Ac Green, Divac, Wooldridge..etc. Bird also Had a Good Cast But McHale Wasn

[Sarcastic]

I knew the "Barkley > Magic" crap was coming.

[moe94]

I knew the "Barkley > Magic" crap was coming.

It came because you baited him. :oldlol:

[Sarcastic]

It came because you baited him. :oldlol:

The intention was always there. It ALWAYS is with him.

[Legends66NBA7]

Come to think of it, which of these players have had bad teams during their careers ?

[Anaximandro1]

1. Duncan

2. Magic

3. Bird


Duncan+Kareem+Worthy would be absurd. I think Duncan and Shaq are underrated, tbh


-Advanced stats do a good job when put in context.


PLAYOFFS
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sY0kBkzBngU/UdiDZU-Gs6I/AAAAAAAACVE/_vJw4LXmXLM/s1600/1.jpg


-ATGs have immense ORtg-DRtg,PER,WS/48,USG% and TS%, regardless of their position

-Jordan is the GOAT

-Duncan is a two way player, so he has an inmense ORtg-DRtg, WS/48, PER, TRB%, BLK%.

-Shaq is a beast.

[red1]

I'll go with

bird
duncan
magic

[Pointguard]

Very strange post, Bird was clearly better in the RS, and usually improved his play in PO as well. And considering Magic had his "Tragic" performances (Bird never had such bad meltdowns), I dont see how you can say you can rely more on Magic than Bird in the Playoffs. The opposite is true.


I am always very specific in what I say.

Before '84 just name me the year that Bird played consistently good in the playoffs. Simple task. Bird was very erratic before '84 in the playoffs.

In '80 he was 20/11/5 which is pretty good but he wasn't consistent. The next year they win it all but Cedric Maxwell wins FMVP??? Cedric was a hustle forward with little skill.

In '82 he's 18 and 12.5 but shot 43% from the field.

In '83 first round against the Hawks he shot 40% for 22ppg on rookie Dominique. Second round against the Bucks 44% for 19ppg (M. Johnson 23ppg on 513%). Over the playoffs he shoots 42% at 20.5 ppg 12.5 rebounds. I see Lazeruss has just posted a more thorough study of this.

Those Bird shooting percentages at that time, were bad. Magic shot a lot better from the field than Bird did in the playoffs overall, about 30 percentage points higher and in the early years he was just more efficient despite being a more risk type of player.




Speaking about games on the line, Bird is the only one All-time who can challenge Jordan as GOAT clutch. Magic? Not so much. :(

And defense... if you really want to claim "Magic was far better than Bird defensively", then I rest my case, its a lost cause :confusedshrug: You are better poster than this.


Magic better than Bird defensively?
You just showed your knowledge there, no need to keep on with this.


All great defensive coaches in Basketball, Soccer and American Football, say controlling the pace a major key in winning the game. Look at the Celtic dynasties. Aurabach and Russell absolutely knew the value of it. There was/is nobody better in the game than controlling tempo than Magic. Offense is the execution of points. All other forms of control are considered defense. Pace is considered defense.

If you want to see horrendous shooting numbers look at the Celtics perimeter shooters numbers near the end of all of their series. Why? Because Magic ran them to death and made them play HIS game. In game six 1985 Dennis Johnson and Ainge shoot 6 for 31 (19%). Bird shot 40%. You can't say it was Kareem because McHale was the only guy shooting well.

Even in '84 DJ and Bird were shooting horribly by the end of the series because they were winded (39 and 33% respectively). These bad shooting percentages were in direct relation to Magic's control on pace.

In 1987 Dennis Johnson and Ainge (shot 1 for 9) shoot 12 for 31 (38%). Bird shot 37%. Before the last game they shot much better in all of the series above. But part of LA's strategy was to tire Boston out through pace. All three of the primary perimeter players were victims of pace. Magic had them winded.

Tony Parker and Kidd were also great controllers of pace - which is why Pop like/liked them.

If you don't understand the concept of pace as being part of defense then say so. Don't dismiss what you don't know.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Hmmm...

Thanks to Colts18 BTW...


Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.


How about (already posted before):

1980 - Drafted as a big hope and the main man of a troubled franchise, leading the team to a 32-wins improvement and the ECF, with basically the same roster, one of the worst to one of the best and the ECF. 4th in MVP voting. Had some great playoff games as a rookie leading the team, even in game3 of the ECF he had a clutch three, then they were going for the tie but Cowens fumbled a pass.

1981 - With Cowens gone and the main addition of Robert Parish, who was already 27 and never considered much at all, led them to a championship as a sophomore. Majorly outplayed the RS MVP Julius Erving in the ECF, coming down from a 3-1 deficit. Struggled with his shooting in the Finals but still the rightful FMVP imo, great and clutch game6, only player to average 15+/15+/7+ in a Finals series, with really good D.

1982 - Played below his standards in the playoffs, no denying that.

1983 - Was injured during the playoffs, basically didn't get swept because he missed one game, and you know that for him not to have been playing it must've been something serious, he was not the one to cry and make a fuss about it though.
Guess whoever wrote that didn't even know about it. :facepalm

1984 - Teammates underperforming all throughout the playoffs, Bird stepped up and led the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT%.
In the Finals, more of the same as he demolished the migthy Lakers.

1985 - Was playing with an injured elbow and injured his hand in bar fight, even know that? Still it took a GOAT-level performance for Kareem to win, as a far from 100% Bird still had some great games. With healthy Bird they most likely get beaten again.

1986 - Leading one of the GOAT teams, when McHale was injured he even managed to make them better somehow. Easily killed teams in the PS and played some of the greatest basketball ever seen. Averaged a triple-double in the Finals.

1987 - Walton and Wedman gone, Sitchting not the same, Celtics with virtually no bench. Bird already with back issues had to log major minutes like never before, same for their starters. Still led them over some gruelsome series, especially against the Bad Boys, as the Lakers with one of the GOAT teams had a relatively easy road to the Finals. McHale playing on a broken foot, Parish and Ainge playing also with some nagging injuries, no bench, team beaten down, Bird couldn't do more.

1988 - Similar situation to before, even worse. Team getting old and filled with injuries, Bird with back and heels troubles, by the time the PS came around he was not the same.

After 1989 Bird was a shell, after major surgeries, and still carrying the team, won't comment on that.

--->>> And Bird was the main man from the start, the leader, the best player, drafted into a shitty team. Magic was drafted into a pretty good team, with top3 GOAT in his prime still to lead the way, all-time great SF Wilkes, really good PG in Nixon to learn from, Cooper too. That can't be nelgected.

Don't you get tired of always posting the same bullshit? You're a known Bird hater and that post as been exposed as bullshit through and through. Even basing lots of things off of stats, whoever posted that was clearly a geek, not even understanding anything about basketball and has 0 knowledge of its history.
Just stop. :facepalm Go write some big ass essays about Wilt now...
Ignorance of some people, posting the biggest piles of crap. :facepalm

[SHAQisGOAT]

1. Duncan

2. Magic

3. Bird


Duncan+Kareem+Worthy would be absurd. I think Duncan and Shaq are underrated, tbh


-Advanced stats do a good job when put in context.


PLAYOFFS
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sY0kBkzBngU/UdiDZU-Gs6I/AAAAAAAACVE/_vJw4LXmXLM/s1600/1.jpg


-ATGs have immense ORtg-DRtg,PER,WS/48,USG% and TS%, regardless of their position

-Jordan is the GOAT

-Duncan is a two way player, so he has an inmense ORtg-DRtg, WS/48, PER, TRB%, BLK%.

-Shaq is a beast.


Comparing advanced stats across eras can't be done. Compare them to their peers, how they did in a certain season.

Notice that the leaders in PER have all mostly played in the last 10 years.
It's like saying the best rebounders ever are the top10 in rpg, mostly from the 60's when the pace was higher.

[Pointguard]

BTW, if you include the post-seasons...

Bird was the better player in '81 (although even his Finals were nothing to write home about), '84 (again...BARELY), and '86.

Magic was better in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, and '91...

And Magic was CLEARLY the better post-season player.
Yes, exactly the way I see it.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I am always very specific in what I say.

Before '84 just name me the year that Bird played consistently good in the playoffs. Simple task. Bird was very erratic before '84 in the playoffs.

In '80 he was 20/11/5 which is pretty good but he wasn't consistent. The next year they win it all but Cedric Maxwell wins FMVP??? Cedric was a hustle forward with little skill.

In '82 he's 18 and 12.5 but shot 43% from the field.

In '83 first round against the Hawks he shot 40% for 22ppg on rookie Dominique. Second round against the Bucks 44% for 19ppg (M. Johnson 23ppg on 513%). Over the playoffs he shoots 42% at 20.5 ppg 12.5 rebounds. I see Lazeruss has just posted a more thorough study of this.

Those Bird shooting percentages at that time, were bad. Magic shot a lot better from the field than Bird did in the playoffs overall, about 30 percentage points higher and in the early years he was just more efficient despite being a more risk type of player.





All great defensive coaches in Basketball, Soccer and American Football, say controlling the pace a major key in winning the game. Look at the Celtic dynasties. Aurabach and Russell absolutely knew the value of it. There was/is nobody better in the game than controlling tempo than Magic. Offense is the execution of points. All other forms of control are considered defense. Pace is considered defense.

If you want to see horrendous shooting numbers look at the Celtics perimeter shooters numbers near the end of all of their series. Why? Because Magic ran them to death and made them play HIS game. In game six 1985 Dennis Johnson and Ainge shoot 6 for 31 (19%). Bird shot 40%. You can't say it was Kareem because McHale was the only guy shooting well.

Even in '84 DJ and Bird were shooting horribly by the end of the series because they were winded (39 and 33% respectively). These bad shooting percentages were in direct relation to Magic's control on pace.

In 1987 Dennis Johnson and Ainge (shot 1 for 9) shoot 12 for 31 (38%). Bird shot 37%. Before the last game they shot much better in all of the series above. But part of LA's strategy was to tire Boston out through pace. All three of the primary perimeter players were victims of pace. Magic had them winded.

Tony Parker and Kidd were also great controllers of pace - which is why Pop like/liked them.

If you don't understand the concept of pace as being part of defense then say so. Don't dismiss what you don't know.

Lmao, such a bullshit explanation.

Guess you know more than those coaches who've praised Bird's D (never seen the same for Magic, in fact the opposite), or the ones who were actually watching the games and voted him to 3 all-defensive teams (and deserved more), while Magic with 0.
I guess it's just a fluke that he led the league in DWS like 4 times and was always at the top, that he was always at the top in DRtg, that the Celtics became one of the greatest defensive teams when he got there, opposed to the previous season, and that the only other forwards who can claim such things are guys like Pippen, Rodman, Duncan, B. Jones, KG...

Show me Magic doing these types of stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s

Keep on talking about control of the pace though.

Seriously a discussion between Bird and Magic about defense? Lol.

[Replay32]

Magic Johnson's defense is underrated. Just like Bird, he wasn't a great individual defender. However, Magic was an excellent team defender who knew good positioning and was great at rotating within the lakers defensive schemes. Riley ran a lot of 1-3-1 zone/traps. Magic wasn't a weak leak and his rotations were always on point.

Bird was a really good team defender also. Bird was better at blocking shots help side. Where Magic was really good at getting steals and tying players up for jump balls. I believe Magic led the league in steals a couple of times and is top 20 "ALL TIME" in steals in only 12 seasons. He's 17th ALL TIME.

Anybody who watched those laker team's in the 80's knows magic was very active defensively within the team's concepts. Bunch of ignorant haters posting non sense. Magic wasn't a terrible defender. Basketball is a team game. Anyway...

1) Magic
2) Duncan
3) Bird

[Pointguard]

[B]
How about (already posted before):

1980 - Drafted as a big hope and the main man of a troubled franchise, leading the team to a 32-wins improvement and the ECF, with basically the same roster, one of the worst to one of the best and the ECF. 4th in MVP voting. Had some great playoff games as a rookie leading the team, even in game3 of the ECF he had a clutch three, then they were going for the tie but Cowens fumbled a pass.
Wow you are picking out individual plays? That's when you know you are reaching. Magic replaced Kareem to clinch the championship. Stay on topic.



1981 - With Cowens gone and the main addition of Robert Parish, who was already 27 and never considered much at all, led them to a championship as a sophomore. Majorly outplayed the RS MVP Julius Erving in the ECF, coming down from a 3-1 deficit. Struggled with his shooting in the Finals but still the rightful FMVP imo, great and clutch game6, only player to average 15+/15+/7+ in a Finals series, with really good D.

Once again Maxwell was a hustle, non skilled forward. His game was non-nondescript. He was what they called a garbage man and was considered classless... They didn't give it to him undeserving. He worked for it. Believe me they wanted to give it to Bird.



1983 - Was injured during the playoffs, basically didn't get swept because he missed one game, and you know that for him not to have been playing it must've been something serious, he was not the one to cry and make a fuss about it though.
Guess whoever wrote that didn't even know about it. :facepalm
Overall there are playoff problems for him. Which is what I wrote from the beginning and you denied it. If you got excuses, it's just that - an excuse of why he wasn't better in the post season.



1985 - Was playing with an injured elbow and injured his hand in bar fight, even know that? Still it took a GOAT-level performance for Kareem to win, as a far from 100% Bird still had some great games. With healthy Bird they most likely get beaten again.

We are six years deep and there is only one maybe two years where no there is no excuse. Sorry, but this isn't going to fly. We are comparing him to Magic who is doing work.


1986 - Leading one of the GOAT teams, when McHale was injured he even managed to make them better somehow. Easily killed teams in the PS and played some of the greatest basketball ever seen. Averaged a triple-double in the Finals.
This is my favorite year of his. Greatness assured. Like I said he had one of the greatest peaks.

The rest is Magic pretty easily and the decade was Magic's. It wasn't shared, Bird rocked his three years, one of which Magic got the chip in.

[IGOTGAME]

I'd go Duncan, Magic, Bird. I really think Duncan is underrated, especially on defense. I've always found him to be a superior defender to anyone I've watched in the 2000s, including KG and Ben Wallace. Give me a big to lock down the paint and that I can the offense through over anything else.

[KevinNYC]

Bird's peak was only three years?
http://i.imgur.com/D5YRbPA.jpg
That Malone cat must have been pretty good.

[plowking]

Bird was considered the better player pretty much their whole playing career. Magic for some reason has benefited after their careers because of his extra championships, and the fact hes on TV constantly for the world to see.

[Pointguard]

Lmao, such a bullshit explanation.

Guess you know more than those coaches who've praised Bird's D (never seen the same for Magic, in fact the opposite), or the ones who were actually watching the games and voted him to 3 all-defensive teams (and deserved more), while Magic with 0.

I guess it's just a fluke that he led the league in DWS like 4 times and was always at the top, that he was always at the top in DRtg, that the Celtics became one of the greatest defensive teams when he got there, opposed to the previous season, and that the only other forwards who can claim such things are guys like Pippen, Rodman, Duncan, B. Jones, KG...

Show me Magic doing these types of stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s

Keep on talking about control of the pace though.

Seriously a discussion between Bird and Magic about defense? Lol.
Bird's hype on defense is truly crap. He played a handicap position. Might have been the first player to do that? He got on an all defensive team and Mchale didn't when Mchale was guarding his man much better than Bird ever could. Most powerforward's were not scorers at that time and if there was one that could score he didn't guard him. They were the center position of today.

[zoom17]

Bird
Magic
Duncan

[Pointguard]

Bird was considered the better player pretty much their whole playing career. Magic for some reason has benefited after their careers because of his extra championships, and the fact hes on TV constantly for the world to see.
Not true at all. Magic had two FMVPs before Bird played consistently good in the post season in '84. And then from '87 on you would have to be crazy to give Bird any of those years.

[KevinNYC]

Once again Maxwell was a hustle, non skilled forward. His game was non-nondescript. He was what they called a garbage man and was considered classless... They didn't give it to him undeserving. He worked for it. Believe me they wanted to give it to Bird.
I actually think that worked against Bird. Because his poor shooting was the story so they overlooked the other things he was doing. Maxwell's big scoring games came as more of a surprise. Remember they hardly talked about triple doubles back then, so I think they discounted the 15 rebounds and 7 assists. When you see the boxscores, they used to publish, you can see why people didn't talk rebounds and assists.
http://001-jk-files.s3.amazonaws.com/images/boxscores/198105070BOS.jpg

If you line up Bird's and Maxwell's stat line, I think Bird's is simply more impressive. The only place Maxwell really had it over Bird was field goal percentage and to a lesser extent blocks. Bill Fitch was surprised Bird didn't win. Bird was far and away the best player in the clinching game.

The other thing to remember about that series, is Maxwell didn't play well every game either. He had a couple of off night too, including 6 points in a game the Celtics lost by 2. If had been consistently good that series, there wouldn't be a debate.

[KevinNYC]

Bird's hype on defense is truly crap. He played a handicap position. Might have been the first player to do that? He got on an all defensive team and Mchale didn't when Mchale was guarding his man much better than Bird ever could. Most powerforward's were not scorers at that time and if there was one that could score he didn't guard him. They were the center position of today.

Something I had mentioned before in another thread. Bird was an impact player on defense.

Hubie Brown on Bird.


Here's what Coach Hubie Brown said after his Knicks lost game 2 of the 1984 ECSF to Boston 116 to 102. Bird went hit 16 of 22 and scored 37 points, but after the game Hubie Brown singled out his defense. (Bird had 4 steals in the game.)


"The entire Boston team played great defense, but the one man the purists noticed was Bird. He's the real key to their defense. Bird reminded us tonight of a middle line-backer the way he roamed around out there. His ability to clog the lane, double team and strip the ball were the keys to their defense."

[wakencdukest]

Bird's peak was only three years?
http://i.imgur.com/D5YRbPA.jpg



Where's Magics 1988-89 MVP at? Where did you find this chart?

[DMAVS41]

I mean that is just your opinion with nothing factual to back it up.

In my opinion Magic lifted his teammates more than anyone in history.

Again nothing factual to back it up. But tomato-tohmahto I guess.

I saw Duncan lead scrubs to the title in 03. I love Magic, and rank him higher than Duncan, but if I have a crap team...I'm taking Duncan.

Even Magic can't make scrubs good...Duncan could simply do more.

Again though...Magic was better in my opinion. The question was which player would do the best on a terrible team.

And I think facts back up the dominant two way player that can anchor an elite defense would be best.

[DMAVS41]

Why again do we have to make excuses for all of Bird's playoff performances? The same was done in the Dirk thread about how Dirk wouldn't have won a title on those Celtics team.

Bird was great. Top 8 all time great and probably higher at his peak, but he was not the best playoff performer of the era. His team lost like 7 times with HCA...acting like those don't exist is absurd.

If Bird played in this era he would be hammered for some of those performances.

Just the way it is.

[Pointguard]

For the series Maxwell shot 57% Bird 42%. Max 17.7 ppg Bird 15.3. Maxwell held Robert Reid to 37% shooting when he was usually over 50% might have also been what sealed the deal. But there were few redeeming qualities about Maxwell. The atmosphere at that time was to hype the rivalry. They wanted Bird to win it. But he didn't look good.

[Pointguard]

Something I had mentioned before in another thread. Bird was an impact player on defense.

Hubie Brown on Bird.

To be fair, we can all pick out one game on any ten year player where that article exist. Magic lead the league twice in steals, and the postseason twice. And when Magic steals the impact is greater than any other player after a steal save maybe Lebron/Jordan.

[SHAQisGOAT]

For the series Maxwell shot 57% Bird 42%. Max 17.7 ppg Bird 15.3. Maxwell held Robert Reid to 37% shooting when he was usually over 50% might have also been what sealed the deal. But there were few redeeming qualities about Maxwell. The atmosphere at that time was to hype the rivalry. They wanted Bird to win it. But he didn't look good.

Go ahead and say that Bird held Paultz to 40% too, but guess what? You don't even know who guarded who because you never watched those games. (and from watching them, I'm sure of this). You must've checked bball-reference to see Bird's "listed" position and went on from that lol.
You're just letting your ignorance show by hating on someone while talking shit you don't even know nothing about. Sad :facepalm
Discussion with you about this is pointless, you already let that show.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird was considered the better player pretty much their whole playing career. Magic for some reason has benefited after their careers because of his extra championships, and the fact hes on TV constantly for the world to see.

:applause:

[Micku]

I saw Duncan lead scrubs to the title in 03. I love Magic, and rank him higher than Duncan, but if I have a crap team...I'm taking Duncan.

Even Magic can't make scrubs good...Duncan could simply do more.

Again though...Magic was better in my opinion. The question was which player would do the best on a terrible team.

And I think facts back up the dominant two way player that can anchor an elite defense would be best.

To be fair, we don't know how well Magic could work in a crap team because he never was on a crappy team. He could take a crappy team to be one of the high tier teams and compete in the playoffs or he could suck. Who knows.

With Bird we have more of an idea of his impact from his rookie year to the stacked Celts team.

[miles berg]

Bird
Magic
Duncan

[KevinNYC]

Where's Magics 1988-89 MVP at? Where did you find this chart?

Considering Bird is highlighted, it's a Bird centric chart. He was injured for practically the whole 1988-89 season. So they left that year out.

[Pointguard]

Go ahead and say that Bird held Paultz to 40% too, but guess what? You don't even know who guarded who because you never watched those games. (and from watching them, I'm sure of this). You must've checked bball-reference to see Bird's "listed" position and went on from that lol.
You're just letting your ignorance show by hating on someone while talking shit you don't even know nothing about. Sad :facepalm
:lol Paultz was an aging jump shooting center. He shot 45% in the playoffs and averaged 7 ppg that year. I know, that we both know, Bird wasn't guarding Malone or Reid. Lets use common sense sense, I don't remember the games like that anyway. Paultz was bumped up because I think Rudy TJanovic got punched in the face that year??? But it is kind of funny that you brought up Bird holding a bench player to 40% shooting.

[KevinNYC]

To be fair, we can all pick out one game on any ten year player where that article exist. Magic lead the league twice in steals, and the postseason twice. And when Magic steals the impact is greater than any other player after a steal save maybe Lebron/Jordan.

The point wasn't it was one game. The point was what one the best students of the game was saying. Even Bird just shot 73% and had 37 points against his team, he wanted to talk about Bird's defense and how it was key to the entire Celtics's defense and talked about subtleties only the "purists" would notice. It was a prefect example of how Bird played defense and it's impact.

The point was people act like Bird was a liability on defense and he simply wasn't. Before his injuries he was an impact player on defense. The way the Celtics played defense maximized his impact too, because it played to his strengths, his ability to know where the ball was going. I mentioned a bunch more in that old ISH thread with the Hubie Brown quote (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230228&page=3) and found some old game clips to show exactly what I was talking about, but youtube took the clips down, unfortunately. Maxwell or McHale often guarded the quicker forward, but they also could not do the stuff that Bird did off the ball.

[KevinNYC]

They wanted Bird to win it. But he didn't look good.

Because they were basing it entirely off shooting/scoring, but Bird did put up 15-15-7 along with over 2 steals.

Nobody has had 15-15-7 in the NBA finals since. I think if it was few years later when reporters and fans were paying attention to triple doubles, it would have been Bird's.

[Psileas]

To be fair, we don't know how well Magic could work in a crap team because he never was on a crappy team. He could take a crappy team to be one of the high tier teams and compete in the playoffs or he could suck. Who knows.

With Bird we have more of an idea of his impact from his rookie year to the stacked Celts team.

He'd do as fine as a PG could do. Scoring-wise, Magic, at least midway and on in his career, was capable of scoring big when he wanted. He played with his back as well as any guard ever, he drove a lot, despite his relative lack of athleticism and could draw tons of fouls. When he added a more reliable perimeter shot, he became a legit potential scorer whenever he was needed to. Gve him a crap team and he averages 25 ppg easily.
As a PG, his non-boxscore strength is how he inspired his teammates, how vocal and enthusiastic he was and how his team approach would prove contageous to his teammates. Add to this his phenomenal basketball IQ and passing ability and...really, I don't care how crap his team is, a team with prime Magic leading them is not going to suck, period. They may not be championship contenders, but you won't see a basketball mess bound for the lottary.
We've never seen Magic play for a sucky team. But we have seen him play for the 1996 Lakers, at the age of 36+, after a 4.5 year absense. He got there with the Lakers at 24-18. They finished the season at 53-29.

[SHAQisGOAT]

:lol Paultz was an aging jump shooting center. He shot 45% in the playoffs and averaged 7 ppg that year. I know, that we both know, Bird wasn't guarding Malone or Reid. Lets use common sense sense, I don't remember the games like that anyway. Paultz was bumped up because I think Rudy TJanovic got punched in the face that year??? But it is kind of funny that you brought up Bird holding a bench player to 40% shooting.


You don't even know nothing about Reid or Paultz, so just stop.
Reid was being guarded by Max primarly yes but Bird also had his fair share, also since Bird played 5 more mpg than Cornbread (which is another reason he should've gotten FMVP) and Paultz didn't play over 32. And Bird's team D > any type of defense Maxwell "had". Kareem's impact over 5 games, in the 1980 Finals, was simply greater than Magic's over 6, without Kareem they are not even close to being in that situation, without Magic not the same, and Jabbar would've most likely returned to the same in game7. Plus let's not forget Wilkes terrific game6 too. Magic being FMVP, Bird should've easily been too.
Common sense? Lol, I rather go with actual facts. I've seen some people here make ridiculous claims off of thin air, like you, stuff like "Erving was guarding Bird but Larry never guarded Julius" lmao.
Rudy T was punched in 1977, he retired in 81.

You even mentioned McHale was guarding the best player instead of Bird, when Kevin only became a full time starter in 1986 and was only playing more than 30 min since 84, Bird won defensive honors since 82, just an example.
I will post it again:
Guess you know more than those coaches who've praised Bird's D (never seen the same for Magic, in fact the opposite), or the ones who were actually watching the games and voted him to 3 all-defensive teams (and deserved more), while Magic with 0.
I guess it's just a fluke that he led the league in DWS like 4 times and was always at the top, that he was always at the top in DRtg, that the Celtics became one of the greatest defensive teams when he got there, with the same roster, opposed to the previous season, and that the only other forwards who can claim such things are guys like Pippen, Rodman, Duncan, B. Jones, KG...

Show me Magic doing these types of stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s

Then you come here talking about Bird's Playoff series when it's clear you don't know what you're talking about. :lol What I've posted about each year of his post-season runs was basically what happened and then you refute it with some bullshit/ignorant claims.

Ignorant kids, man :facepalm

[BlackVVaves]

Reflecting my personal Top 10 All Time list?

Magic
Bird
Duncan

In that order.

[Alan Ogg]

Where's Magics 1988-89 MVP at? Where did you find this chart?


That Malone cat must have been pretty good.


Thanks. I have the MVPs laid out like that from the first to now. It must have been an older version. My bad. Let me know if you find any other mistakes. Changed Bird to green too.

http://i.imgur.com/1i1zsLx.jpg

[Alan Ogg]

Considering Bird is highlighted, it's a Bird centric chart. He was injured for practically the whole 1988-89 season. So they left that year out.

That must have been why. Thanks KevinNYC. I have the entire timeline of MVPs and I've also broken it down for each player's career. Did change that last Malone to Karl though, :::hat tip::: Although, perhaps I should change the remaining Malones to Moses.

[LAZERUSS]

How about (already posted before):

1980 - Drafted as a big hope and the main man of a troubled franchise, leading the team to a 32-wins improvement and the ECF, with basically the same roster, one of the worst to one of the best and the ECF. 4th in MVP voting. Had some great playoff games as a rookie leading the team, even in game3 of the ECF he had a clutch three, then they were going for the tie but Cowens fumbled a pass.

1981 - With Cowens gone and the main addition of Robert Parish, who was already 27 and never considered much at all, led them to a championship as a sophomore. Majorly outplayed the RS MVP Julius Erving in the ECF, coming down from a 3-1 deficit. Struggled with his shooting in the Finals but still the rightful FMVP imo, great and clutch game6, only player to average 15+/15+/7+ in a Finals series, with really good D.

1982 - Played below his standards in the playoffs, no denying that.

1983 - Was injured during the playoffs, basically didn't get swept because he missed one game, and you know that for him not to have been playing it must've been something serious, he was not the one to cry and make a fuss about it though.
Guess whoever wrote that didn't even know about it. :facepalm

1984 - Teammates underperforming all throughout the playoffs, Bird stepped up and led the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT%.
In the Finals, more of the same as he demolished the migthy Lakers.

1985 - Was playing with an injured elbow and injured his hand in bar fight, even know that? Still it took a GOAT-level performance for Kareem to win, as a far from 100% Bird still had some great games. With healthy Bird they most likely get beaten again.

1986 - Leading one of the GOAT teams, when McHale was injured he even managed to make them better somehow. Easily killed teams in the PS and played some of the greatest basketball ever seen. Averaged a triple-double in the Finals.

1987 - Walton and Wedman gone, Sitchting not the same, Celtics with virtually no bench. Bird already with back issues had to log major minutes like never before, same for their starters. Still led them over some gruelsome series, especially against the Bad Boys, as the Lakers with one of the GOAT teams had a relatively easy road to the Finals. McHale playing on a broken foot, Parish and Ainge playing also with some nagging injuries, no bench, team beaten down, Bird couldn't do more.

1988 - Similar situation to before, even worse. Team getting old and filled with injuries, Bird with back and heels troubles, by the time the PS came around he was not the same.

After 1989 Bird was a shell, after major surgeries, and still carrying the team, won't comment on that.

--->>> And Bird was the main man from the start, the leader, the best player, drafted into a shitty team. Magic was drafted into a pretty good team, with top3 GOAT in his prime still to lead the way, all-time great SF Wilkes, really good PG in Nixon to learn from, Cooper too. That can't be nelgected.

Don't you get tired of always posting the same bullshit? You're a known Bird hater and that post as been exposed as bullshit through and through. Even basing lots of things off of stats, whoever posted that was clearly a geek, not even understanding anything about basketball and has 0 knowledge of its history.
Just stop. :facepalm Go write some big ass essays about Wilt now...
Ignorance of some people, posting the biggest piles of crap. :facepalm


I post FACTUAL information which clearly shows that Bird was the biggest CHOKER of the Top-10 GOAT candidates...and you come back with this NONSENSE.

Bird flat out choked!

He played with THREE-FOUR HOFers almost his entire career, and was constantly carried by McHale, who was FAR more efficient, and yet only won THREE rings. And in one of those Finals, he was simply AWFUL. Had he actually been GIVEN that FMVP it would clearly have been the WORST FMVP in NBA history.

Magic was FAR more CLUTCH. Carried his teams much further.

The Bird-lovers never bring up the fact that after KAJ retired, Magic led them to an even BETTER record than his last season, and in fact, it was LA"s second best record of the 80's. And he carried an injured-riddled shell of a roster to the Finals in his last season in '91.

BTW, Magic could have scored far more in his career. I find it fascinating that in their career H2H's, it was MAGIC who had the two highest scoring games. '

And, of course, Magic was a FAR greater player in HIS Finals, than Bird was in his.

And one more time, Bird was one play, and one FT away from being SWEPT in '84. Think about that. Magic SHOULD have had a 3-0 H2H Finals margin, and a 6-2 edge in rings.

Then again, he absolutely DOMINATED the '87 Celtics in a one-sided blowout series in which Bird was not even the best player on his own team, and was actually about the 5th best player in the series. Which was the exact same scenario as '85, when, again, it was MCHALE who was Boston's best player, and Bird the 5th best player in the series.

And I find it interesting that Bird has his greatest statistical REGULAR season in 87-88, and then blew chunks all over the floor against the Pistons in the EDF's (a .341 FG%!!!!!!!). Oh, and then Magic shelled that same Piston team with a 21 ppg .550 series in which, unlike Bird in '81, Magic DESERVED the FMVP, and didn't win it.

Magic>>>>>>>>>>>>> bird

[Pointguard]

You don't even know nothing about Reid or Paultz, so just stop.

I have posts, several post about Reid on this board, about his shooting percentage. I brought up Reid in a totally different discussion with YOU about Moses Malone on this board.


Reid was being guarded by Max primarly yes but Bird also had his fair share, also since Bird played 5 more mpg than Cornbread (which is another reason he should've gotten FMVP) and Paultz didn't play over 32. And Bird's team D > any type of defense Maxwell "had". Kareem's impact over 5 games, in the 1980 Finals, was simply greater than Magic's over 6, without Kareem they are not even close to being in that situation, without Magic not the same, and Jabbar would've most likely returned to the same in game7. Plus let's not forget Wilkes terrific game6 too. Magic being FMVP, Bird should've easily been too.
Common sense? Lol, I rather go with actual facts. I've seen some people here make ridiculous claims off of thin air, like you, stuff like "Erving was guarding Bird but Larry never guarded Julius" lmao.
I never make absolute statements so it wasn't me. But Bird more often than not did not guard high scoring SF's.



Rudy T was punched in 1977, he retired in 81.
Paultz replaced him. He wasn't as prolific as Rudy either.


You even mentioned McHale was guarding the best player instead of Bird, when Kevin only became a full time starter in 1986 and was only playing more than 30 min since 84, Bird won defensive honors since 82, just an example.

So now you are implying a lie.

You know full well Maxwell was in Kevin's role before. Its a lie to act like Bird had it covered before McHale. That didn't happen.



Then you come here talking about Bird's Playoff series when it's clear you don't know what you're talking about. :lol What I've posted about each year of his post-season runs was basically what happened and then you refute it with some bullshit/ignorant claims.

Ignorant kids, man :facepalm
:lol I never refuted your claims about the post season - I called them excuses which is exactly what they are. You just aren't very bright. If Magic played better a majority of the seasons, it is what it is. Excuses won't affect that. I can find articles about Greg Oden playing great defense one game but its not a great look into his career. But you won't find an article about how KG plays defense with his feet. How he plays to stop the play before it gets to the rim, which is what all coaches really want. The media feeds the dumbed down version. I can talk about pace and nobody knows what I'm talking about here? Go to any coach type conference and pace is a major agenda item. The dumbed down media doesn't go there.

Football, soccer, boxing fans know about pace better than basketball fans do. Russell talks about it a lot but, apparently, who cares about what he says. If you make somebody play your game (see Dallas in 2011) you can win the Chip. SA, a pace master team, could overcome tremendous talent gaps by making them play their game. No matter how good a fighter is they fight Mayweather's fight after the third round. If you dictate pace and action, you have a much better chance.

[LAZERUSS]

I have posts, several post about Reid on this board, about his shooting percentage. I brought up Reid in a totally different discussion with YOU about Moses Malone on this board.

I never make absolute statements so it wasn't me. But Bird more often than not did not guard high scoring SF's.


Paultz replaced him. He wasn't as prolific as Rudy either.

So now you are implying a lie.

You know full well Maxwell was in Kevin's role before. Its a lie to act like Bird had it covered before McHale. That didn't happen.

:lol I never refuted your claims about the post season - I called them excuses which is exactly what they are. You just aren't very bright. If Magic played better a majority of the seasons, it is what it is. Excuses won't affect that. I can find articles about Greg Oden playing great defense one game but its not a great look into his career. But you won't find an article about how KG plays defense with his feet. How he plays to stop the play before it gets to the rim, which is what all coaches really want. The media feeds the dumbed down version. I can talk about pace and nobody knows what I'm talking about here? Go to any coach type conference and pace is a major agenda item. The dumbed down media doesn't go there.

Football, soccer, boxing fans know about pace better than basketball fans do. Russell talks about it a lot but, apparently, who cares about what he says. If you make somebody play your game (see Dallas in 2011) you can win the Chip. SA, a pace master team, could overcome tremendous talent gaps by making them play their game. No matter how good a fighter is they fight Mayweather's fight after the third round. If you dictate pace and action, you have a much better chance.

You simply can't argue with these Bird-lovers. I have seen topics comparing Bird to Lebron, and despite the fact that Lebron has already surpassed Bird in every way, they flat out will deny it. Lebron has more MVPs, as many FMVPs, and has been a MUCH better scorer in both the regular season AND post-season, with nowhere near the meltdowns that Bird had. Oh, and these Bird-zealots will rip Magic for his defense, but they quietly ignore the fact that Lebron has been a FAR greater defender in his career.

And I will guarantee you this...even if Lebron goes on to win five rings, five MVPs, and five FMVPs, the Bird-fanatics will still argue that Bird was better.

[davehos]

A top 5 PG? A top 5 SF? A top 5 PF?

Yeah, why rank them. Combine to form Voltron and dominate.

What's more relevant ...

Prime Bird vs. LeBron ... last shot of the game ... who do you make the play for?

Just kidding .. it's obvious ... Bird.

[LAZERUSS]

A top 5 PG? A top 5 SF? A top 5 PF?

Yeah, why rank them. Combine to form Voltron and dominate.

What's more relevant ...

Prime Bird vs. LeBron ... last shot of the game ... who do you make the play for?

Just kidding .. it's obvious ... Bird.

But, who would you take for a full game? A prime Bird, or a prime Lebron. The answer is pretty clear. Lebron was simply the better player. And Lebron's peak and prime have been better and longer.

[shaq2000]

A top 5 PG? A top 5 SF? A top 5 PF?

Yeah, why rank them. Combine to form Voltron and dominate.

Top 1 PG. Top 1 SF. Top 1 PF.

[davehos]

Top 1 PG. Top 1 SF. Top 1 PF.

I was trying not the feed the trolls. I agree with that assessment.

I'd round out this team with Jordan (SG) and Olajuwon (C) ...

Duncan and Olajuwon in the paint (in their prime) ... incredible rim defense.

Bird and Jordan perimeter ... money.

Magic could always find the open player . . even when he wasn't looking.

[Rolando]

I was trying not the feed the trolls. I agree with that assessment.

I'd round out this team with Jordan (SG) and Olajuwon (C) ...

Duncan and Olajuwon in the paint (in their prime) ... incredible rim defense.

Bird and Jordan perimeter ... money.

Magic could always find the open player . . even when he wasn't looking.

Unbeatable team. Very tall team too with Jordan as the shortest player.

[Lebron23]

A top 5 PG? A top 5 SF? A top 5 PF?

Yeah, why rank them. Combine to form Voltron and dominate.

What's more relevant ...

Prime Bird vs. LeBron ... last shot of the game ... who do you make the play for?

Just kidding .. it's obvious ... Bird.


I actually take Lebron over Duncan in clutch situation in the playoffs, and the superior player in a do or die game.

[Out_In_Utah]

I have Bird on top, but I struggle between Duncan and Magic.

[Lebron23]

I have Bird on top, but I struggle between Duncan and Magic.


Where would you rank LBJ if he wins his 3rd straight finals MVP, and 5th Regular season MVP at age 29??

LBJ has better numbers in the regular season, playoffs, and almost the same stats as Bird in the Finals.

[Out_In_Utah]

Where would you rank LBJ if he wins his 3rd straight finals MVP, and 5th Regular season MVP at age 29??

LBJ has better numbers in the regular season, playoffs, and almost the same stats as Bird in the Finals.

I'd have LBJ as 4th. LeBron got bailed from losing to elderly Duncan, he'd have no chance against prime Duncan.

I do think LBJ will surpass some of them, if not all.

[Lebron23]

I'd have LBJ as 4th. LeBron got bailed from losing to elderly Duncan, he'd have no chance against prime Duncan.

I do think LBJ will surpass some of them, if not all.


37 points, and 12 rebounds in game 7. The 2013 spurs were actually a very solid and deeper team in the playoffs. Duncan was Missing in action in the 2nd half of game 7, and he missed an easy layup. He choked.

Look at Duncan's past opponents in the Finals. The 2005 Pistons were the only good team.

The 1999 knicks sucks, the 2003 nets was just an average team, and the 2007 Cavaliers were the worst finals team of all time.

2012 and 2013 Heat beat much better teams in the Finals. 2012 OKC Thunder, and 2013 Spurs >> 1999 Knicks, 2003 Nets, 2005 Pistons, and 2007 Cavaliers.

[Champ]

A lot of stat-mongering in this thread. Stats are important, but are also much more useful when placed in their proper context.

Seems like a lot of posters never watched the actual series being discussed, or have a good understanding what the league was like in the 1980s.

It's really difficult to compartmentalize Magic and Bird's playoff successes and failures through mere statistics or championships because each measure oversimplifies the comparison - and neither does any of them justice (Duncan included).

Lastly, what often makes players of this caliber so great are the kinds of intangibles that don't show up in the box scores - beginning the fast break, the pass that leads to the assist, the clutch play that swings momentum, mental toughness, leadership...I could go on.

Sadly, with threads like these, it becomes clear that many posters have never seen the games or series or seasons being discussed, which is such a big part of the overall picture. What was the important moment or moments in that game or series that significantly impacted the outcome? What injuries played a roll? What were the playoff matchups leading up to the championships, or the relative strengths of the conferences at the time?

These are all questions to consider and warrant further research.

[Champ]

I post FACTUAL information which clearly shows that Bird was the biggest CHOKER of the Top-10 GOAT candidates...and you come back with this NONSENSE.

Bird flat out choked!

He played with THREE-FOUR HOFers almost his entire career, and was constantly carried by McHale, who was FAR more efficient, and yet only won THREE rings. And in one of those Finals, he was simply AWFUL. Had he actually been GIVEN that FMVP it would clearly have been the WORST FMVP in NBA history.

Magic was FAR more CLUTCH. Carried his teams much further.

The Bird-lovers never bring up the fact that after KAJ retired, Magic led them to an even BETTER record than his last season, and in fact, it was LA"s second best record of the 80's. And he carried an injured-riddled shell of a roster to the Finals in his last season in '91.

BTW, Magic could have scored far more in his career. I find it fascinating that in their career H2H's, it was MAGIC who had the two highest scoring games. '

And, of course, Magic was a FAR greater player in HIS Finals, than Bird was in his.

And one more time, Bird was one play, and one FT away from being SWEPT in '84. Think about that. Magic SHOULD have had a 3-0 H2H Finals margin, and a 6-2 edge in rings.

Then again, he absolutely DOMINATED the '87 Celtics in a one-sided blowout series in which Bird was not even the best player on his own team, and was actually about the 5th best player in the series. Which was the exact same scenario as '85, when, again, it was MCHALE who was Boston's best player, and Bird the 5th best player in the series.

And I find it interesting that Bird has his greatest statistical REGULAR season in 87-88, and then blew chunks all over the floor against the Pistons in the EDF's (a .341 FG%!!!!!!!). Oh, and then Magic shelled that same Piston team with a 21 ppg .550 series in which, unlike Bird in '81, Magic DESERVED the FMVP, and didn't win it.

Magic>>>>>>>>>>>>> bird

Your egregious exaggerations hurt your arguments, which could be a lot more valid if you changed your approach. I sense you have a real dislike for one of the three players in this discussion - never a good thing when trying to make unbiased comparisons. It really waters down what you're trying to say.

A discussion between Magic and Bird, two of the all-time greats and arguable the most dynamic team players in NBA history, deserves better.

[Euroleague]

Anyone that says Duncan is better than Bird or Magic is nuts.

[TheBigVeto]

Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson

This.