Elvin Hayes should have been the 1978 NBA Finals MVP over Wes Unseld

[Lebron23]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/elvin-hayes/elvin-hayes-300b.jpg

Elvin Hayes Finals Stats

20.7 ppg on 48 FG%, 11.9 rpg, 1.4 spg, 1.6 spg, 2.0 bpg

Wes Unseld


9.0 ppg on 55 FG%, 11.7 rpg, 3.9 apg, 0.6 spg, 0.1 bpg.

[KobesFinger]

Did you watch it? If you didn't you can't really say that, impact can go beyond stats.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Did you watch it? If you didn't you can't really say that, impact can go beyond stats.


/thread

[Lebron23]

Did you watch it? If you didn't you can't really say that, impact can go beyond stats.


I just read some thread from another forum. Hayes was the Bullet's most consistent player in the playoffs and in 7 games in the Finals.

I hope this series is available on youtube.

[Lebron23]

/thread


They always give the NBA Finals MVP to the leading scorer of a winning team in a 7 games series. That's why they gave it to Kobe in 2010 despite Gasol being having the most impact in that series.

But that's another topic for discussion.

[Doranku]

True LeBron fan here. Clearly has never seen a minute of gameplay from the series, yet makes an assumption from staring at box scores.

[moe94]

True LeBron fan here. Clearly has never seen a minute of gameplay from the series, yet makes an assumption from staring at box scores.

That's cold. :biggums:

[Lebron23]

True LeBron fan here. Clearly has never seen a minute of gameplay from the series, yet makes an assumption from staring at box scores.


Women Lie, men lie, Numbers don't lie. Hayes led his team in scoring, rebounding, and blocks per game.

You can talk to some older posters here. They are gonna say that Hayes was the best player of the Bullets against the Sonics.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

How many FMVPs in the history of the game scored less than 10 ppg?

[Doranku]

Women Lie, men lie, Numbers don't lie. Hayes led his team in scoring, rebounding, and blocks per game.

You can talk to some older posters here. They are gonna say that Hayes was the best player of the Bullets against the Sonics.

You're right.

Kevin Durant leads LeBron in scoring, rebounding, and blocks per game. Kevin Durant is a better player than LeBron. Numbers don't lie.

[Lebron23]

How many FMVPs in the history of the game scored less than 10 ppg?

Wes Unseld

This is like Dennis Rodman winning a Finals MVP over Mike in 1996.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

You're right.

Kevin Durant leads LeBron in scoring, rebounding, and blocks per game. Kevin Durant is a better player than LeBron. Numbers don't lie.

He has been playing better so far, yes.

[Lebron23]

You're right.

Kevin Durant leads LeBron in scoring, rebounding, and blocks per game. Kevin Durant is a better player than LeBron. Numbers don't lie.


I said in the other thread KD deserves the MVP Award over a coasting Lebron. Watch Lebron put's up much better stats in the 2nd half of the season just like last year.

[cos88]

True LeBron fan here. Clearly has never seen a minute of gameplay from the series, yet makes an assumption from staring at box scores.

bring lebron to a thread about elvin hayes and the mvp from 40 years ago. reported

[Lebron23]

Lebron is also saving his energy, and legs in the playoffs. He has nothing left to prove in the regular season. He's already a 4x NBA MVP, but I still love to see him spoil Durant's MVP chances.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Women Lie, men lie, Numbers don't lie. Hayes led his team in scoring, rebounding, and blocks per game.

You can talk to some older posters here. They are gonna say that Hayes was the best player of the Bullets against the Sonics.


There are lies, damned lies, and statistics

[steve]

Actually, if you talk to any long time Bullets fan, they'll tell you the most crucial player in the finals for them that year was Bobby Dandridge. He was the team's top defender, came up with a number of clutch shots for them in the most important parts of the series. Hayes by the way played terribly down the stretch for them and fouled out of two tight games (including Game 7 with the game very much in the balance). Unseld ended up getting the Finals MVP because he came up huge for them in Game 7 and he was primarily the team's rock during that entire playoff run.

[Lebron23]

Actually, if you talk to any long time Bullets fan, they'll tell you the most crucial player in the finals for them that year was Bobby Dandridge. He was the team's top defender, came up with a number of clutch shots for them in the most important parts of the series. Hayes by the way played terribly down the stretch for them and fouled out of two tight games (including Game 7 with the game very much in the balance). Unseld ended up getting the Finals MVP because he came up huge for them in Game 7 and he was primarily the team's rock during that entire playoff run.

Ok. I'll rep you later. But damn 9 ppg is still a terrible numbers for an NBA Finals MVP.

Can you imagine Lebron or even Kobe winning Finals MVP while averaging under 10 ppg? This forum is going to be flooded with that topics.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Yes he did, one of the biggest outrages in NBA history imo, that makes Hayes even more underrated.
Apart from Bullets fans, Hayes was really hated on, unlike Wes.

[steve]

Ok. I'll rep you later. But damn 9 ppg is still a terrible numbers for an NBA Finals MVP.

Can you imagine Lebron or even Kobe winning Finals MVP while averaging under 10 ppg? This forum is going to be flooded with that topics.

Except Hayes at that point in his career wasn't at that stature. He was 32, having arguably the worst season of his career on a team that pulled off two pretty monumental upsets. He didn't even make All NBA that season (and rightfully). So comparing him to the likes of Lebron and Kobe at that point in his career is a little disingenuous if you're trying to build an argument. That Bullets team matches much closer to the '04 Pistons. Granted, this title wouldn't even mean that much (and the subsequent Finals MVP) if Hayes hadn't laid an egg in the '75 Finals.

[dankok8]

I think the post from another forum Lebron23 was referring to may be my own post from Hoops-Nation. Anyways here it is below and giving the FMVP to Unseld instead of Hayes was inexcusable. Elvin Hayes was definitely the best player on the Bullets throughout the entire year as well.


Let's start with the stats shall we?

Elvin Hayes: 20.7 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 1.4 apg, 2.0 bpg, 1.6 spg on 48.0 %FG/50.9 %TS
Wes Unseld: 9.0 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 3.9 apg, 0.1 bpg, 0.6 spg on 52.0 %FG/53.6 %TS

Hayes scored more than double the points, rebounded better, and defended better. During the season Hayes had a 4.6 to 3.9 edge in DWS and a 2.0 to 0.6 edge in blocks per game. In the playoffs that margin only grew to 1.7 to 1.1 in DWS and 2.5 to 0.4 in blocks per game.

Unseld somehow got huge credit for his Game 7 performance (15/9/6 on 50% shooting in 45 minutes) compared to Elvin Hayes (12/8/1 on 50% shooting in 30 minutes). Late in the 3rd quarter with the Bullets leading comfortably by about 15 points Hayes fouled out on two consecutive phantom calls. Marvin Webster had a dominant final quarter and ended the game with 27 points 19 rebounds on 66.7 %FG with no Hayes around to guard him. Unseld's man and Seattle rookie Jack Sikma had 21 points and 11 rebounds. The Bullets' defense didn't just crash without the Big E but Unseld was terrible in the clutch. The Sonics cut the lead to four points with a minute left. Wes was fouled and missed both free throws, Silas scored and the lead was down to two. Unseld was fouled again and hit just one of two free throws but the Sonics couldn't buy a bucket and Washington escaped with a title thanks to Bob Dandridge and Mitch Kuptchak making some huge baskets late in the game. One could even say the real Finals MVP was Seattle's Dennis Johnson who shot 0-14 from the field in Game 7 and wasted such dominant efforts by their big man duo (dark humor I know!). Let's break it down game by game shall we?

Game 1 Hayes: 21/9/0 on 50.0 %FG Unseld: 6/7/4 on 71.4 %FG

Game 2 Hayes: 25/9/3 on 54.5 %FG Unseld: 2/15/5 on 12.5 %FG

Game 3 Hayes: 29/20/0 on 50.0 %FG Unseld: 2/12/2 on 25.0 %FG

Game 4 Hayes: 20/13/1 on 44.4 %FG Unseld: 15/11/4 on 70.0 %FG

Game 5 Hayes: 17/9/2 on 50.0 %FG Unseld: 13/14/3 on 62.5 %FG

Game 6 Hayes: 21/15/3 on 39.1 %FG Unseld: 6/14/5 on 60.0 %FG

So apart from Game 5 where it's about even Hayes is better in every game. Unseld was a total disaster in the first three games. And in the first six games with Hayes glued on him Webster could manage to put up 12.8 points and 15.0 rebounds per game on 41.6% from the field. A far cry from his Game 7 monster performance huh?

Hayes by 1978 was an exemplary teammate. Anyone who has read his press conferences would see how much he praises his teammates, deflects credit to others, and always says only the best things about Unseld despite their personal animosity.

The reason this is the biggest award travesty in NBA history is that a) it was a decision not even based on love of a certain player (Unseld) as much as it was based on irrational hate of another player (Hayes) and b) it was at least partly caused by controversial refereeing that took Hayes out of Game 7.

[steve]

If anyone got robbed of a Finals MVP in that series, it certainly wasn't Hayes. He was the Bullets best player that season but it wasn't exactly clear cut and even less so during that specific series. Keep in mind that Hayes didn't just foul out of Game 7 but he also fouled out of a pivotal Game 4 (and by the way, Hayes has always had the stigma of coming up short in big games and this certainly didn't help). Meanwhile the player who kept coming up big for the Bullets in that series was Dandridge. People who look at the stats tend to harp on Hayes but for anyone who's watched the series or remembers it, remembers Dandridge being the most important player on the floor for the Bullets during the Finals.

[L.Kizzle]

I've heard Elvin Hayes was an ass and Wes Unseld was very much liked. That might also be another reason.

[steve]

Hayes was a guy that Bill Fitch told a rookie Ralph Sampson to "stay the hell away from" like Hayes was some kind of '50 greaser trying to get into Fitch's daughter's pants.

[dankok8]

If anyone got robbed of a Finals MVP in that series, it certainly wasn't Hayes. He was the Bullets best player that season but it wasn't exactly clear cut and even less so during that specific series. Keep in mind that Hayes didn't just foul out of Game 7 but he also fouled out of a pivotal Game 4 (and by the way, Hayes has always had the stigma of coming up short in big games and this certainly didn't help). Meanwhile the player who kept coming up big for the Bullets in that series was Dandridge. People who look at the stats tend to harp on Hayes but for anyone who's watched the series or remembers it, remembers Dandridge being the most important player on the floor for the Bullets during the Finals.

You're right that Dandridge played a great series. But when Hayes fouled out with 10 min left in the 4th quarter the Bullets were up by 10. When he left the game the Bullets' defense went down the drain and Big E's man Marvin Webster in particular lit up the Bullets in the 4th quarter and ended up with 27/19. Unseld missed 3 (out of 4) key free throws in the final minute and it was only clutch buckets by Dandy and Kuptchak that kept Washington in front. And Dennis Johnson's 0-14 shooting helped a lot too. Anyways it's clear Hayes had a big impact defensively as well.

Yes he had a bad rep (and at times early in his career with SDR deservedly so) and in '75 Finals he choked no doubt but all year in 77-78 Hayes was the best player and good teammate for the Bullets. He was especially trancendent in the first two rounds of the playoffs when they dispatched Gervin's Spurs and then Dr J's Sixers making huge plays in key moments. It gets kind of forgotten but Washington won their last 3 series without HCA thanks largely to the heroics of Elvin Hayes.


Elvin Hayes - 1978 Playoffs

vs Spurs

G1: 26/15 (12/?, 2/4)
G2: 28/11 (13/?, 2/5)
G3: 27/12 (12/?, 3/5)
G4: 23/13 (10/18, 3/4) - made the last 2 baskets of the game and blocked Gervin’s game-winner
G5: 17/13 (7/?, 3/6)
G6: 25/15 (11/?, 3/7) - big in the fourth again

Series Average: 24.3 ppg, 13.2 rpg

vs. Sixers

G1: 28/18/?/6 (10/?, 8/11) – 9 pts in OT for the win
G2: 26/15 (7/?, 12/16)
G3: 16/12 (6/?, 4/9)
G4: 35/19 (17/?, 1/6)
G5: 12/16 (4/?, 4/6)
G6: 21/14 (8/?, 5/11)

Series Average: 23.0 ppg, 15.7 rpg

vs. Sonics

G1: 21/9/0/0 (9/18, 3/4)
G2: 25/9/3/4 (12/22, 1/2)
G3: 29/20/0/0 (12/24, 5/10)
G4: 20/13/1/2 (8/18, 4/5)
G5: 17/9/2/1 (6/12, 5/7)
G6: 21/15/3/5 (9/23, 3/4)
G7: 12/8/1/2 (5/10, 2/3) – in 30 min, fouled out on two BS calls

Finals Average: 20.7 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 1.4 apg, 2.0 bpg, 1.6 spg on 48.0 %FG/50.9 %TS

[magic chiongson]

http://lundberg.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/news_lebron-james-check-my-stats-1.jpg