Was the ABA getting better than the NBA?

[Dr.J4ever]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABA%E2%80%93NBA_merger

This article from Wikipedia was an eye opener for me. For some of you who are lazy, I will give some quotes below. The link basically detailed what happened during the ABA NBA merger, including the talks before and after. Since I was too young, for the longest time, I have been relying on the opinion of other people I respected, so this link quotes respectable people, and some of their opinions surprised even me.

From Wiki:
" Gradually, the ABA began to prove itself superior, going 15-10 against the NBA in 1973, 16-7 in 1974, and 31-17 in 1975. Overall, the ABA won more of these interleague games than the NBA did, and in EVERY MATCHUP OF REIGNING CHAMPIONS from the two leagues, the ABA champion WON."

Wiki quotes Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe:

" ....those NBA ABA games were intense.."

Larry Brown:

" When some exhibition games were arranged in the 1970's to make some money and we beat them, the NBA said they weren't up for the games. Come on. When I coached Carolina, we played the Knicks after they won a championship and we went out and beat NY. We also played the Celtics a couple of times and beat them. Heinsohn would say that we were playing to win and they weren't, but I'd check the box score at the end of the game and see that Tommy played his regulars 35-40 minutes, so what does that tell you?"

From Wikipedia:

" Interest in the ABA vs NBA rivalry extended beyond the two leagues management. In 1976, CBS sought to establish a post season Playoff between the ABA and NBA, and to win the right to broadcast those games."

From Wikipedia on the 1st Post Merger Season:

* of the 84 players in the ABA, 63 played in the NBA
* in the NBA Finals, 5 of the 10 starting 5 were former ABA players
* 4 of the NBA's top 10 scorers were from the ABA
* Don Buse with the Pacers led the league in steals and assist
* The Denver Nuggets(beaten by the NY Nets in the last ABA Finals) won the Midwest Division with the leagues 2nd best record. Just a game back of the best record(the Lakers)
* Spurs who could never get past the 1st round in the ABA playoffs, won their own division in their 1st year and won it 5 of their first 6 seasons in the NBA

From Wikipedia on the ABA's legacy:

* slam dunk contest
* pressing and trapping defense(see the article and what Hubie Brown comments about this aspect
* faster pace of play
* drafting of underclassmen

Wiki quotes Doug Moe:

" ..the NBA now plays like the old ABA. Guys play hard. They show their enthusiasm and there is a closeness in the league. Hell, the NBA might have won the battle, but we won the war. The NBA now plays our kind of basketball"

Wiki quotes Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe:

" When writers such as Jim O'Brien and Peter Vecsey wrote the two leagues were very close, that some ABA teams were top 5 in basketball, I thought they had no objectivity and were too close to the teams. Then came the merger and San Antonio and Denver win their divisions. What could I say? Guys like Jim O'Brien were right ."

There are a lot of very interesting things in the article. If you are into the true history of pro basketball, you have to read it because it should affect discussions of GOATS in my humble opinion.
Plus, can we please include the ABA stats officially into the NBA. Are we just gonna throw out Doc's 11,000 points in the ABA? Really?

We want justice.

[Euroleague]

The NBA has repeatedly dodged the Euroleague in the proposed FIBA world championship that would have the NBA champ play against the Euroleague champ.

It was scheduled to happen, then Barca beat the Lakers and Stern cancelled it.

The NBA are *******.

PERIOD.

Why the hell is any of this a revelation to you? As an NBA only fan you should know this is standard operating procedure. The NBA never ever allows itself to face any actual real competition EVER.

[Dr.J4ever]

The NBA has repeatedly dodged the Euroleague in the proposed FIBA world championship that would have the NBA champ play against the Euroleague champ.

It was scheduled to happen, then Barca beat the Lakers and Stern cancelled it.

The NBA are *******.

PERIOD.

Why the hell is any of this a revelation to you? As an NBA only fan you should know this is standard operating procedure. The NBA never ever allows itself to face any actual real competition EVER.

Sorry, not a good comparison. The NBA dominates the Euroleague in H2H, and NBA players have dominated international competition, not just TEAM USA vs the world, but France winning the Eurobasket. The NBA should not take these challenges seriously, and me personally, I would not want any Sixers joining these so called "world championships" today or in the future.

[Black and White]

The NBA has repeatedly dodged the Euroleague in the proposed FIBA world championship that would have the NBA champ play against the Euroleague champ.

It was scheduled to happen, then Barca beat the Lakers and Stern cancelled it.

The NBA are *******.

PERIOD.

Why the hell is any of this a revelation to you? As an NBA only fan you should know this is standard operating procedure. The NBA never ever allows itself to face any actual real competition EVER.


Hmm..........

CP3
George
Durant
LeBron
Howard

would destroy any lineup Euroleague would put fourth


Hell this line-up would touch the Euroleague best aswell:

Lillard
Wade
Rudy Gay
LaMarcus
Anthony Davis

[ABfor3]

The NBA has repeatedly dodged the Euroleague in the proposed FIBA world championship that would have the NBA champ play against the Euroleague champ.

It was scheduled to happen, then Barca beat the Lakers and Stern cancelled it.

The NBA are *******.

PERIOD.

Why the hell is any of this a revelation to you? As an NBA only fan you should know this is standard operating procedure. The NBA never ever allows itself to face any actual real competition EVER.
You're name is the reason why I can never take you serious.

[MavsSuperFan]

The NBA has repeatedly dodged the Euroleague in the proposed FIBA world championship that would have the NBA champ play against the Euroleague champ.

It was scheduled to happen, then Barca beat the Lakers and Stern cancelled it.

The NBA are *******.

PERIOD.

Why the hell is any of this a revelation to you? As an NBA only fan you should know this is standard operating procedure. The NBA never ever allows itself to face any actual real competition EVER.
I have never watched euroleague, but anthony parker proves NBA> Euroleague

3

[Dr.J4ever]

Below might be a good description of the difference between the ABA and the NBA:

"The NBA had better centers (KAJ, Wilt, Cowens, Unseld >> Gilmore, Haywood, McGinnis) and the broader (!= better) talent base. However, the NBA was reactionary, static and full of "vanilla" game, i.e. running EVERYTHING thru the C, and heavy usage of pick and roll and lay ups. Dunking was frowned upon, and forwards were thuggy enforcers (Kermit Washington).

The ABA was smaller, more chaotic, but very innovative. They compensated the relative lack of good centers with strong forward play (Erving, Hawkins, Barry, Bobby Jones etc), run and gun, aggressive dunking, 3pt shooting (they actually HAD a 3pt line) and of course the Slam Dunk Contest. The players were sometimes WACKY and were paid less, but they also had a strong "we belong together" feel."

Fair? If you read very carefully the ABA game, it's style of play is well represented in today's era, maybe more than the pre-merger NBA style. People often talk about the NBA from 1976- 1977 onwards, as if it was the same league before that year. It absolutely wasn't.

It couldn't have been. The influx of the ABA players from top players to role players, to coaches and their distinct coaching philosophies were already gradually changing the NBA. The NBA after 1976 was a stronger league(team wise,talent wise), than the NBA before that season. This is just common sense. So a distinction must be made pre- merger and post merger.

After reading up on many of the observers at the time, many have said some of the ABA teams like the Kentucky Colonels and Denver Nuggets were talented enough to win titles in the NBA during the mid 70s. Teams like the Nets who won ABA titles(led by Dr.J) played a more finesse game, and might have struggled more in the pre merger NBA, some said.

Still, NBA champs at the time like Barry's Warriors and Havlicek's Celtics didn't look all that imposing, and I've wondered if there ever had been some kind of "Super Bowl", would the ABA have gotten the better of the NBA. sometime from 1974-1976 before the merger? After all, a star-less Phoenix Suns team pushed that Celtic team to the brink in a classic series. Would a talented Nets team led by a prime Doc have beaten that Celtic team?

When some people say, Doc's Sixers lost to Bill Walton and Portland in the 1st post merger NBA, they forget this is already in the REINFORCED NBA. Indeed, I've seen the discussions here on this board on how key a role Lucas played in winning the title for Portland.

An NBA champ vs. ABA champ would have been just that. The NBA team would have no reinforcements of talent, and the ABA teams would have all that younger talent and innovative coaching (Larry Brown, Hubie Brown) at their disposal. Indeed, CBS wanted this ABA vs. NBA playoff format to happen. Oh how different history would have been if Doc's Nets were given a chance, and defeated the Celtics.

Alas, the NBA would have none of it. After sensing financial weakness, the NBA went for the kill with the merger talks. ABA teams were punished for entry into the NBA by not getting their share of top draft picks in the 1st few years after the merger, but teams like Denver and San Antonio did well anyway winning their divisions.

I was just too young to have seen all these legendary ABA exploits of the Doctor, but the implications of what the ABA represented are potentially enormous in NBA history. All these GOAT discussions have to consider Doc's 2 other ABA titles, and 2 other scoring titles in his prime.

Doc's total would then be 6 Finals appearances(2 in the ABA, 4 in the NBA), and 3 Titles(2 in the ABA, 1 in the NBA). This is still more than Lebron, to this point, and tied with Bird with 3 Titles among SF's.

At the very least, the NBA, in honor of the ABA and it's legacy, should finally count ABA stats. We lift the greats like Erving up their proper place in history, and honor other ABA players who did well but never reached the merger year.

[Dragic4Life]

Personally I exclude any ABA accolades from GOAT discussion.

[nycelt84]

The ABA was on the verge of going out of business in 1976 with teams like the Denver Nuggets applying for NBA membership to escape the sinking ship. Merger or no merger 1975-76 was going to be the ABA's final year.

[bizil]

Below might be a good description of the difference between the ABA and the NBA:

"The NBA had better centers (KAJ, Wilt, Cowens, Unseld >> Gilmore, Haywood, McGinnis) and the broader (!= better) talent base. However, the NBA was reactionary, static and full of "vanilla" game, i.e. running EVERYTHING thru the C, and heavy usage of pick and roll and lay ups. Dunking was frowned upon, and forwards were thuggy enforcers (Kermit Washington).

The ABA was smaller, more chaotic, but very innovative. They compensated the relative lack of good centers with strong forward play (Erving, Hawkins, Barry, Bobby Jones etc), run and gun, aggressive dunking, 3pt shooting (they actually HAD a 3pt line) and of course the Slam Dunk Contest. The players were sometimes WACKY and were paid less, but they also had a strong "we belong together" feel."

Fair? If you read very carefully the ABA game, it's style of play is well represented in today's era, maybe more than the pre-merger NBA style. People often talk about the NBA from 1976- 1977 onwards, as if it was the same league before that year. It absolutely wasn't.

It couldn't have been. The influx of the ABA players from top players to role players, to coaches and their distinct coaching philosophies were already gradually changing the NBA. The NBA after 1976 was a stronger league(team wise,talent wise), than the NBA before that season. This is just common sense. So a distinction must be made pre- merger and post merger.

After reading up on many of the observers at the time, many have said some of the ABA teams like the Kentucky Colonels and Denver Nuggets were talented enough to win titles in the NBA during the mid 70s. Teams like the Nets who won ABA titles(led by Dr.J) played a more finesse game, and might have struggled more in the pre merger NBA, some said.

Still, NBA champs at the time like Barry's Warriors and Havlicek's Celtics didn't look all that imposing, and I've wondered if there ever had been some kind of "Super Bowl", would the ABA have gotten the better of the NBA. sometime from 1974-1976 before the merger? After all, a star-less Phoenix Suns team pushed that Celtic team to the brink in a classic series. Would a talented Nets team led by a prime Doc have beaten that Celtic team?

When some people say, Doc's Sixers lost to Bill Walton and Portland in the 1st post merger NBA, they forget this is already in the REINFORCED NBA.
Indeed, I've seen the discussions here on this board on how key a role Lucas played in winning the title for Portland.

An NBA champ vs. ABA champ would have been just that. The NBA team would have no reinforcements of talent, and the ABA teams would have all that younger talent and innovative coaching (Larry Brown, Hubie Brown) at their disposal. Indeed, CBS wanted this ABA vs. NBA playoff format to happen. Oh how different history would have been if Doc's Nets were given a chance, and defeated the Celtics.

Alas, the NBA would have none of it. After sensing financial weakness, the NBA went for the kill with the merger talks. ABA teams were punished for entry into the NBA by not getting their share of top draft picks in the 1st few years after the merger, but teams like Denver and San Antonio did well anyway winning their divisions.

I was just too young to have seen all these legendary ABA exploits of the Doctor, but the implications of what the ABA represented are potentially enormous in NBA history. All these GOAT discussions have to consider Doc's 2 other ABA titles, and 2 other scoring titles in his prime.

Doc's total would then be 6 Finals appearances(2 in the ABA, 4 in the NBA), and 3 Titles(2 in the ABA, 1 in the NBA). This is still more than Lebron, to this point, and tied with Bird with 3 Titles among SF's.

At the very least, the NBA, in honor of the ABA and it's legacy, should finally count ABA stats. We lift the greats like Erving up their proper place in history, and honor other ABA players who did well but never reached the merger year.

Great post! I've always said that Bird or Bron is the GOAT NBA SF BUT the Dr. is the GOAT SF in PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL HISTORY! Doc's total career resume is STILL the most impressive of all time in my book. And the NBA absorbed ABA teams and concepts and took them to the next level.

The ABA guys were LARGELY responsible for the evolution of SG, SF, and PF positions. Thompson redefined the SG spot in terms of a 6'4 (a smaller kind of SG today) freakish athlete who had a great scoring skillset. Gervin redefined the SG spot by being a 6'7 or 6'8 and having an EPIC scoring skillset. Guys like MJ, Wade, T-Mac, Kobe, etc. evolved what those guys brought to the table. I mean SHIT Skywalker was Jordan's presenter at the HOF! That says a lot about the ABA and that talent pool. Other than PG and C, the ABA was just as good as the NBA in my opinion. It would have been EPIC to see Pistol Pete, Tiny Archibald, and Earl Monroe in the ABA!

[Dr.J4ever]

The ABA was on the verge of going out of business in 1976 with teams like the Denver Nuggets applying for NBA membership to escape the sinking ship. Merger or no merger 1975-76 was going to be the ABA's final year.

Uhh..no...You never do your business adversary a favor. You take advantage of weakness and gobble it up.The NBA didn't do the ABA a favor in 1976. They must have seen an emerging threat somewhere. Either directly from the ABA, possibly from getting a favorable CBS deal and reviving interest in it, or because they knew the best younger players were in the ABA.

Perhaps, the NBA itself was struggling, and they thought getting the ABA's Julius Erving, the best all around player in the game at the time, could help revitalize their fortunes.

[Dr.J4ever]

Great post! I've always said that Bird or Bron is the GOAT NBA SF BUT the Dr. is the GOAT SF in PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL HISTORY! Doc's total career resume is STILL the most impressive of all time in my book. And the NBA absorbed ABA teams and concepts and took them to the next level.

The ABA guys were LARGELY responsible for the evolution of SG, SF, and PF positions. Thompson redefined the SG spot in terms of a 6'4 (a smaller kind of SG today) freakish athlete who had a great scoring skillset. Gervin redefined the SG spot by being a 6'7 or 6'8 and having an EPIC scoring skillset. Guys like MJ, Wade, T-Mac, Kobe, etc. evolved what those guys brought to the table. I mean SHIT Skywalker was Jordan's presenter at the HOF! That says a lot about the ABA and that talent pool. Other than PG and C, the ABA was just as good as the NBA in my opinion. It would have been EPIC to see Pistol Pete, Tiny Archibald, and Earl Monroe in the ABA!

You're so right. The legacy of the ABA is so ignored historically, I think I know the reason why.

Part of it is politics and there is still a lot of ill will from NBA old hands who remember. The owners of the St.Louis franchise were able to get a coup of a deal that lasted until a settlement was finally reached with the NBA just a year or two ago. Can you imagine the former owners of the franchise have been receiving a % of the vast TV money the NBA has been getting all these years? In 1976, they(NBA) never could have imagined how much money they would be throwing away, just to absorb these 4 ABA teams, and the other players from the other ABA teams. This deal has destroyed much of the nostalgia many NBA executives might have attributed to the ABA by now, if not for this deal. It's hard to feel good for your now defunct former rival if they are still benefiting from you today financially.

The other part is NBA marketing. The NBA would love us to believe that the NBA started in 1980 when the Bid-Magic rivalry was starting to develop.After all,it was during the 80s when the NBA started taking off again. The 70s were a dark age in NBA basketball, despite Doc rejuvenating the league.

The NBA was perceived, during the 70s, as too black, no defense, too selfish, and too much cocaine. The Magic-Bird era during the 80s changed much of that. Much of the history and legacy of the 70s has been thrown by the wayside.

[Iceman#44]

Its a same that Doc and Pistol Pete Maravich were divided after 2 preseason games...together they couldve a ring in the 70's

[nycelt84]

Uhh..no...You never do your business adversary a favor. You take advantage of weakness and gobble it up.The NBA didn't do the ABA a favor in 1976. They must have seen an emerging threat somewhere. Either directly from the ABA, possibly from getting a favorable CBS deal and reviving interest in it, or because they knew the best younger players were in the ABA.

Perhaps, the NBA itself was struggling, and they thought getting the ABA's Julius Erving, the best all around player in the game at the time, could help revitalize their fortunes.

The ABA was not about to receive any TV deals. I suggest you do some reading from ABA insiders at the time. The league's final year the goal of al the higher ups was to accept a favorable merger deal with the NBA which was hard because the league was on the verge of folding. There was no future for the ABA. Even the league's teams wanted out.

[jlip]

I have to agree with NYCelts84. Check out the last 11 minutes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0OuHgr18Cc#t=48m08s) of this documentary on the ABA entitled, "Longshots: The Life and Times of the American Basketball Association." While the basketball talent was there, all signs point to the ABA's demise being inevitable due to them being financially strapped.

[LAZERUSS]

While I would agree that a peak Erving played in the ABA, the reality was, by even around the 72-73 season, the best players that had been in the ABA, were back in the NBA. True, there were a small handful that still resided in the ABA. Dr. J, Gilmore, Issel, and David Thompson, as well as a Gervin who would explode in his NBA career. But overall, the NBA had, BY FAR, the most talented players.

And even with the merger, the ABA added just FOUR teams to the NBA.

[Dr.J4ever]

While I would agree that a peak Erving played in the ABA, the reality was, by even around the 72-73 season, the best players that had been in the ABA, were back in the NBA. True, there were a small handful that still resided in the ABA. Dr. J, Gilmore, Issel, and David Thompson, as well as a Gervin who would explode in his NBA career. But overall, the NBA had, BY FAR, the most talented players.

And even with the merger, the ABA added just FOUR teams to the NBA.

Laz, go back and read the earlier posts I made in this thread on the impact the ABA had in the 1st year of the reinforced NBA. The ABA clearly had an enormous impact with 10 of the 24 all stars coming from the ABA in it's first year. Five of the 10 starters in the NBA Finals were from the ABA. Don Buse of Indiana led the league in steals and assists, besides the obvious exploits form Gervin, Erving, and the rest. If anything, despite just 4 teams making the NBA and most of the players from the other teams, the ABA had a disproportionate impact in the reinforced NBA.

This is a quote from "Remember the ABA" :

"However, in the later years of the rivalry, the tide began to turn. Buoyed by younger, better talent and (in many cases) the home court advantage, ABA teams began winning most of the games. Over the last three seasons of the rivalry, the ABA steadily pulled ahead: 15-10 (in 1973), 16-7 (in 1974), and 31-17 (in 1975). The ABA won the overall interleague rivalry, 79 games to 76."

Really what you are talking about is your opinion regarding the more talented players, and that is difficult to disprove either way, but I will go with the facts. In the last year before the merger, the ABA won 64% of the inter league games. In games that were characterized as "intense" and with big name stars playing heavy minutes and players getting thrown out of games, I would put more stock in those games than just ordinary exhibitions. Was it really a coincidence that during the 1st years of the games, the NBA dominated? And then during the last 3 years before the merger, the ABA started pulling ahead? Were those just coincidences? Or did the ABA pull ahead in talent?

A good case can be made that the ABA was getting better in top tier talent.

[Dr.J4ever]

I have to agree with NYCelts84. Check out the last 11 minutes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0OuHgr18Cc#t=48m08s) of this documentary on the ABA entitled, "Longshots: The Life and Times of the American Basketball Association." While the basketball talent was there, all signs point to the ABA's demise being inevitable due to them being financially strapped.

It's a good video. Nothing in it disproves any of my contentions. Was the ABA getting weaker financially? Yes. Did the NBA seize on this for altruistic reasons? No. Did the NBA want the ABA's cache of some of the best players in the game? Yes.

Think about it though, why didn't the NBA just wait for the ABA to collapse? Why absorb teams, and get the majority of the other players? In business, there is always a reason.

[el gringos]

I can't believe the Flint Tropics aren't still around

[duskovujosevic]

what is the main reason for ABA demise? is it finance, bad menagement, owners?

[InspiredLebowski]

nobody gonna talk about how the NBA tried to cripple the 4 merger teams once they had no choice but to accept them?

[Dr.J4ever]

what is the main reason for ABA demise? is it finance, bad menagement, owners?

It's a combination of all those 3 thing you mentioned. Plus, the 70s were not good years, in terms of fan support and thus revenue, for either the NBA or the ABA. As I said, pro basketball had declined and was in flux with the retirement of guys like Wilt, Russel, West, and the great Celtic and Laker teams.

Race became a factor as Stern himself said the NBA was perceived to be too black, there were reports of cocaine abuse, and just a dark age from a business point of view.

In this back drop, there really wasn't enough of a market to support 2 leagues.

[Dr.J4ever]

nobody gonna talk about how the NBA tried to cripple the 4 merger teams once they had no choice but to accept them?

Yes, the NBA absolutely tried to cripple the 4 ABA teams with heavy fines and penalties for entering the NBA. The Nets basically had to give up Erving to enter the NBA. Imagine if Doc entered the NBA with a full Nets team coming off an ABA Title?

In addition, the 4 ABA teams couldn't be reinforced by the ABA dispersal draft, and they couldn't have draft picks in their first couple of years. Despite all this, Denver and San Antonio were excellent teams, and Indiana was okay. The Nets, playing without their superstar in Doc, were horrible.

[Threethrows]

I can't believe the Flint Tropics aren't still around

Inventors of the alley-oop :bowdown:

[MiseryCityTexas]

You're so right. The legacy of the ABA is so ignored historically, I think I know the reason why.

Part of it is politics and there is still a lot of ill will from NBA old hands who remember. The owners of the St.Louis franchise were able to get a coup of a deal that lasted until a settlement was finally reached with the NBA just a year or two ago. Can you imagine the former owners of the franchise have been receiving a % of the vast TV money the NBA has been getting all these years? In 1976, they(NBA) never could have imagined how much money they would be throwing away, just to absorb these 4 ABA teams, and the other players from the other ABA teams. This deal has destroyed much of the nostalgia many NBA executives might have attributed to the ABA by now, if not for this deal. It's hard to feel good for your now defunct former rival if they are still benefiting from you today financially.

The other part is NBA marketing. The NBA would love us to believe that the NBA started in 1980 when the Bid-Magic rivalry was starting to develop.After all,it was during the 80s when the NBA started taking off again. The 70s were a dark age in NBA basketball, despite Doc rejuvenating the league.

The NBA was perceived, during the 70s, as too black, no defense, too selfish, and too much cocaine. The Magic-Bird era during the 80s changed much of that. Much of the history and legacy of the 70s has been thrown by the wayside.

The quality of basketball was probably good in the 70s. Whites were just mad because blacks were dominating 70s basketball, and white people didn't like that, and ratings went down as a result of that.

[GimmeThat]

"Potential investors were told that they could get an ABA team for half of what it cost to get an NBA expansion team at the time."


If they weren't hoping for a successful merger, tell me this doesn't sound like a stupid business idea.


If more college teams decided to play for the NIT instead of the NCAA. while I guess on a pure basketball perspective you may argue NIT level would then become closer to the NCAA tournament. But in terms of stability, people will be watching and be thinking "what exactly are those college teams thinking?"

[The JKidd Kid]

Yes, the NBA absolutely tried to cripple the 4 ABA teams with heavy fines and penalties for entering the NBA. The Nets basically had to give up Erving to enter the NBA. Imagine if Doc entered the NBA with a full Nets team coming off an ABA Title?

In addition, the 4 ABA teams couldn't be reinforced by the ABA dispersal draft, and they couldn't have draft picks in their first couple of years. Despite all this, Denver and San Antonio were excellent teams, and Indiana was okay. The Nets, playing without their superstar in Doc, were horrible.

This the crippling of the ABA teams, set them back for years and in the Nets case, decades. On top of the fines and lack of draft picks, the Knicks also pulled a fast one on the Nets and used their leverage as the NBAs star child to fine the Nets extra for entering their territory, even though the spurs didn't have to pay for entering Houston's territory and the Nets weren't playing in the city. They knew that the Nets wouldn't be able to afford to keep Julius Erving after all the fines and were hopeful that the Nets would sell him to the Knicks, however the Nets basically said f you and sold him to the 76ers for pennies on the dollar. If they had managed to keep Julius Erving, that Nets team would've been considered one of the favorites to win the NBA title that season. This, along with injuries to star players like Nate "Tiny" Archibald crippled the franchise for years until Drazen Petrovic came along, but sadly he died in a car accident shortly after the Nets acquired him. The Nets never really recovered until the Jason Kidd trade which was the teams first real success after being ****ed over by the NBA and the Knicks.

[jongib369]

Was there a big surge in talent in the ABA during the early 70s? Or a major change in pace or SOMETHING to explain why Dr.J was able to average 15 rebounds a game his rookie year yet never able to match it again

Not knocking the ABA though they obviously had a lot of talent and were able to beat NBA teams quite often

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUqkuCic3GA


:applause:

[Dr.J4ever]

This the crippling of the ABA teams, set them back for years and in the Nets case, decades. On top of the fines and lack of draft picks, the Knicks also pulled a fast one on the Nets and used their leverage as the NBAs star child to fine the Nets extra for entering their territory, even though the spurs didn't have to pay for entering Houston's territory and the Nets weren't playing in the city. They knew that the Nets wouldn't be able to afford to keep Julius Erving after all the fines and were hopeful that the Nets would sell him to the Knicks, however the Nets basically said f you and sold him to the 76ers for pennies on the dollar. If they had managed to keep Julius Erving, that Nets team would've been considered one of the favorites to win the NBA title that season. This, along with injuries to star players like Nate "Tiny" Archibald crippled the franchise for years until Drazen Petrovic came along, but sadly he died in a car accident shortly after the Nets acquired him. The Nets never really recovered until the Jason Kidd trade which was the teams first real success after being ****ed over by the NBA and the Knicks.

Absolutely true.

[Dr.J4ever]

Was there a big surge in talent in the ABA during the early 70s? Or a major change in pace or SOMETHING to explain why Dr.J was able to average 15 rebounds a game his rookie year yet never able to match it again

Not knocking the ABA though they obviously had a lot of talent and were able to beat NBA teams quite often

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUqkuCic3GA


:applause:

I don't want to sound like a fake expert here. I never saw these games, to be honest. I am going here on pure research, and my own personal knowledge of Julius Erving's career.

Let me try to explain this. Other than the obvious that Doc was young and had a livelier body in 1972 when he averaged 15 boards for the Squires, perhaps these can help explain that "anomaly".

1. The ABA had a faster pace.
2. Doc's rebounding numbers gradually declined anyway in the ABA when he was with the Nets. He was averaging around 10 boards a game with the Nets.
3. ABA centers improved during that 1972 to 1976 era.
4. In Doc's first year in the reinforced NBA, he still averaged 8.5 boards.So his rebounding consistently declined as he aged, and perhaps as the ABA changed and the level of physicality changed from the ABA to the NBA.

Just my take on that issue.

[GimmeThat]

Was there a big surge in talent in the ABA during the early 70s? Or a major change in pace or SOMETHING to explain why Dr.J was able to average 15 rebounds a game his rookie year yet never able to match it again

Not knocking the ABA though they obviously had a lot of talent and were able to beat NBA teams quite often

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUqkuCic3GA


:applause:

ABA rules may have just favored Dr. J over the NBA rules

I tend to believe that the statistics a player puts up generally has more to do with its team make up more than the competition over the long haul.

and those were 70/80 game seasons.

[Marchesk]

Uhh..no...You never do your business adversary a favor. You take advantage of weakness and gobble it up.

Because it's all a zero-sum game, the pie can't get bigger, and customers tend to not want choice?

[Dr.J4ever]

Because it's all a zero-sum game, the pie can't get bigger, and customers tend to not want choice?

I don't want to be involved in a capitalist vs. socialist economic theory type thing here on this board.

But no, I don't believe in a zero sum game. The pie can get bigger, but that's not what I'm talking about with the ABA/NBA merger. The other poster commented that the ABA would have died a natural death without the merger. Maybe so, even though CBS urged both leagues to have an ABA vs. NBA playoff format in 1976. So who knows if an investor or white knight came along. Could that have been a threat to the NBA?

What I'm saying is there is a reason the NBA absorbed the ABA, and it wasn't because they were just trying to be nice. The NBA wanted the ABA dead, and they were willing to absorb it to get it done right away.

There were business reasons for it. That's it and that's all.

[Dr.J4ever]

I apologize for the scrambled results of the last year of exhibition games between the ABA vs NBA in 1975-76. You can make the outline and results of the games. Notice the main stars scoring heavily in most of the games.

In addition, Wiki said this:

"Boston Globe sportswriter Bob Ryan said of the ABA-NBA exhibition games: "When those exhibition games began, the view in the NBA was, 'Now we'll show those guys.' But then you know what happened - the ABA teams won nearly as often as the NBA did .... Those NBA-ABA games were intense."[21] Longtime NBA coach Larry Brown said of the ABA vs. NBA games, "When some exhibition games were arranged in the 1970s to make some money and we (the ABA) beat them, the NBA said they weren't up for the games. Come on. When I coached Carolina, we played the Knicks after they won a championship. I looked at their guys shooting around and I looked at my guys and I didn't want my players to take off their warm-ups because they looked so scrawny next to the Knicks - and we went out and beat New York. We also played the Celtics a couple of times and beat them. (Celtics coach) Tommy Heinsohn would say that we were playing to win and they weren't, but I'd check the box score and see that Tommy played his regulars 35 to 40 minutes, so what does that tell you?"[22]


Date Game Score
October 1, 1975 Chicago Bulls (NBA) vs. Kentucky Colonels (ABA)
at Cincinnati, OH COLONELS 95
Bulls 86
Utah Stars (ABA) vs. Philadelphia 76ers (NBA)
at Philadelphia, PA (The Palestra) 76ERS 116
Stars 111
Houston Rockets (NBA) vs. Virginia Squires (ABA)
at Norfolk, VA ROCKETS 117
Squires 112
October 4, 1975 New Orleans Jazz (NBA) vs. Denver Nuggets (ABA)
at Charlotte, NC
Maravich 33 pts; Thompson 19 pts NUGGETS 94
Jazz 79
Buffalo Braves (NBA) vs. Indiana Pacers (ABA)
at Indianapolis, IN
McAdoo 29 pts; Elmore 22 pts PACERS 106
Braves 105
Kentucky Colonels (ABA) vs. New York Knicks (NBA)
at Landover, MD (Capital Centre)
Monroe 26 pts; Dampier 23 pts KNICKS 107
Colonels 102
Atlanta Hawks (NBA) vs. San Antonio Spurs (ABA)
at San Antonio, TX
Silas 33 pts; Gervin 27 pts; Drew (Hawks) 25 pts; Kenon 22 pts SPURS 115
Hawks 111
New York Nets (ABA) vs. Washington Bullets (NBA)
at Landover, MD (Capital Centre)
Erving 36 pts; Hayes 25 pts; Chenier 24 pts BULLETS 109
Nets 108
Philadelphia 76ers (NBA) vs. Virginia Squires (ABA)
at Hampton, VA
McGinnis 25 pts; Norman (76ers) 25 pts; D. Collins 20 pts; Mack Calvin (Squires) tears knee tendon, out two months 76ERS 130
Squires 113
October 5, 1975 New Orleans Jazz (NBA) vs. Denver Nuggets (ABA)
at Raleigh, NC
Attendance 12,400; Thompson 30 pts; Bibby (Jazz) 22 pts; Maravich 18 pts; R. Kelley 14 pts JAZZ 115
Nuggets 101
Detroit Pistons (NBA) vs. Kentucky Colonels (ABA)
at Cincinnati, OH
Gilmore 22 pts; Lanier 17 pts; Travis Grant 17 pts & winning jumper with 4 seconds left in game COLONELS 114
Pistons 113
Atlanta Hawks (NBA) vs. San Antonio Spurs (ABA)
at San Antonio, TX
Silas 35 pts; Drew (Hawks) 22 pts; Kenon 20 pts SPURS 129
Hawks 118
October 7, 1975 San Antonio Spurs (ABA) vs. Kansas City-Omaha Kings (NBA)
at Kansas City, MO SPURS 101
Kings 97
Seattle Supersonics (NBA) vs. Utah Stars (ABA)
at Salt Lake City, UT
Two teams combine for 119 shots from free-throw line; Boone 23 points; Leonard Gray (Sonics) ejected for punching Steve Green (Stars) STARS 122
Sonics 119
October 8, 1975 Seattle Supersonics (NBA) vs. Denver Nuggets (ABA)
at Denver, CO
First basketball game at Denver's McNichols Arena; Haywood 41 pts; Thompson 31 pts NUGGETS 115
Sonics 110
Golden State Warriors (NBA) vs. Kentucky Colonels (ABA)
at Louisville, KY
Matchup of previous season's NBA & ABA Champions; Attendance 8,806; Marv Roberts 20 pts; Gilmore 14 pts & 11 rebounds; Barry 9 pts (3 for 11 from the field) & 3 pt. air ball with 31 seconds left in game COLONELS 93
Warriors 90
New York Knicks (NBA) vs. New York Nets (ABA)
at Uniondale, NY NETS 110
Knicks 104
San Antonio Spurs (ABA) vs. Atlanta Hawks (NBA)
at New Orleans, LA SPURS 109
Hawks 107
October 9, 1975 Kansas City-Omaha Kings (NBA) vs. Spirits of St. Louis (ABA)
at Columbia, MO
Barnes 24 pts & 14 rebounds; Archibald 24 pts SPIRITS 95
Kings 90
October 10, 1975 Denver Nuggets (ABA) vs. Golden State Warriors (NBA)
at Oakland, CA
Issel 26 pts including basket & two free throws to break 105-105 tie in final minute; B. Jones (Nuggets) 14 pts & 15 rebounds; Wilkes 27 pts; Barry 16 pts; C. Ray (Warriors) 17 pts & 22 rebounds NUGGETS 111
Warriors 107
Milwaukee Bucks (NBA) vs. Kentucky Colonels (ABA)
at Louisville, KY
COLONELS 96
Bucks 91
October 11, 1975 Kansas City-Omaha Kings (NBA) vs. Utah Stars (ABA)
at Denver, CO
Wedman 30 pts; Boone 40 pts (18 in 1st quarter) STARS 114
Kings 111
Golden State Warriors (NBA) vs. Denver Nuggets (ABA)
at Denver, CO
Attendance 17,018 (at the time, a record crowd for a basketball game in Colorado); Wilkes 28 pts & 12 rebounds; P. Smith 27 pts; Thompson 22 pts; Barry 4 pts, 4 personal fouls, 3 technical fouls in second period (ejected from game by referee Ed Middleton) WARRIORS 115
Nuggets 100
Milwaukee Bucks (NBA) vs. Indiana Pacers (ABA)
at Indianapolis, IN
Flynn 22 pts; Winters 21 pts; McGlocklin 21 pts PACERS 92
Bucks 87
New York Nets (ABA) vs. Buffalo Braves (NBA)
at Buffalo, NY
Attendance 15,000; McMillian (Braves) 23 pts; B. Taylor 17 pts; Erving 16 pts; McAdoo DNP NETS 109
Braves 83
Houston Rockets (NBA) vs. San Antonio Spurs (ABA)
at San Antonio, TX
Murphy 37 pts; Kenon 22 pts & 15 rebounds ROCKETS 108
Spurs 85
Baltimore Claws (ABA) vs. Philadelphia 76ers (ABA)
at Cherry Hill, NJ
One of only three games the Claws played; D. Collins (76ers) 28 pts 76ERS 103
Claws 82
October 12, 1975 Kentucky Colonels (ABA) vs. Detroit Pistons (NBA)
at Detroit, MI
Porter (Pistons) 24 pts; Eberhard (Pistons) 20 pts; Averitt 21 pts PISTONS 115
Colonels 107 (OT)
Chicago Bulls (NBA) vs. Virginia Squires (ABA)
at Norfolk, VA
T. Burden 28 pts; Wise 19 pts; Bulls later file suit against Squires, claiming that Virginia failed to pay Chicago a guaranteed $13,000 for playing the game at Scope SQUIRES 105
Bulls 102
October 14, 1975 Buffalo Braves (NBA) vs. Kentucky Colonels (ABA)
at Louisville, KY COLONELS 120
Braves 116
Washington Bullets (NBA) vs. New York Nets (ABA)
at New Haven, CT NETS 122
Bullets 114
New Orleans Jazz (NBA) vs. San Antonio Spurs (ABA)
at San Antonio, TX JAZZ 105
Spurs 104
Chicago Bulls (NBA) vs. Utah Stars (ABA)
at Salt Lake City, UT
Bulls later file suit against Stars, claiming that Utah failed to pay Chicago a guaranteed $17,000 for playing the game at the Salt Palace BULLS 122
Stars 119 (OT)
October 15, 1975 New York Knicks (NBA) vs. Indiana Pacers (ABA)
at Indianapolis, IN KNICKS 103
Pacers 98
Golden State Warriors (NBA) vs. New York Nets (ABA)
at Uniondale, NY
Barry 49 pts; Erving 43 pts WARRIORS 119
Nets 114
Portland Trailblazers (NBA) vs. San Diego Sails (ABA)
at San Diego, CA
Caldwell Jones (Sails) 27 pts & 27 rebounds; Bill Walton (Blazers) 6 pts & 11 rebounds; Petrie (Blazers) 22 pts BLAZERS 98
Sails 85
Utah Stars (ABA) vs. Seattle Supersonics (NBA)
at Seattle, WA
Roche (Stars) 33 pts; Watts (Sonics) 21 pts STARS 108
Sonics 98
October 16, 1975 Buffalo Braves (NBA) vs. San Antonio Spurs (ABA)
at San Antonio, TX
Silas 22 pts; Gervin 22 pts; McAdoo 22 pts & 16 rebounds SPURS 101
Braves 90
October 17, 1975 Boston Celtics (NBA) vs. Denver Nuggets (ABA)
at Denver, CO
Attendance 16,898; Thompson 33 pts; Havlicek 24 pts; Charlie Scott 4 pts, 4 personal fouls, 2 technicals fouls in second period (ejected from game by referee John Vanak) NUGGETS 124
Celtics 114
Philadelphia 76ers (NBA) vs. Kentucky Colonels (ABA)
at Cincinnati, OH
Gilmore 25 pts; McGinnis 25 pts; D. Collins 20 pts COLONELS 112
76ers 110
New York Nets (ABA) vs. Buffalo Braves (NBA)
at Seton Hall, NJ
McAdoo 31 pts; Williamson 21 pts; DiGregorio 20 pts NETS 117
Braves 97
Kansas City-Omaha Kings (NBA) vs. Spirits of St. Louis (ABA)
at St. Louis, MO (Kiel Auditorium) KINGS 114
Spirits 108
October 18, 1975 New York Nets (ABA) vs. New York Knicks (NBA)
at New York, NY (Madison Square Garden)
Erving 33 pts & jump shot at buzzer to win game; Frazier 22 pts NETS 103
Knicks 101
Philadelphia 76ers (NBA) vs. Spirits of St. Louis (ABA)
at Carbondale, IL
Lucas (Spirits) 21 pts & 15 rebounds; Cunningham (76ers) 15 pts SPIRITS 107
76ers 91
San Antonio Spurs (ABA) vs. Houston Rockets (NBA)
at Edinburg, TX
Silas 31 pts; Murphy 28 pts ROCKETS 113
Spurs 109 (OT)
October 19, 1975 Philadelphia 76ers (NBA) vs. Indiana Pacers (ABA)
at Indianapolis, IN
McGinnis 27 pts (faces Pacers for first time as 76ers player); Knight 29 pts; Mix 24 pts; F. Carter (76ers) 22 pts; Roundfield 21 pts 76ERS 131
Pacers 129 (2OT)
Washington Bullets (NBA) vs. Kentucky Colonels (ABA)
at Lexington, KY
Gilmore 23 pts; Chenier 18 pts COLONELS 121
Bullets 111
October 21, 1975 Milwaukee Bucks (NBA) vs. Utah Stars (ABA)
at Salt Lake City, UT STARS 106
Bucks 101

[feyki]

http://www.apbr.org/bbowl.html

ABA were arguably as good as NBA about 72,73 . And then They were better at 74-76 .

[CuterThanRubio]

The ABA invented the 3 point line, I'll always view them favorably for that, a very future forward organization, if I war around in the 70s I'd be anti-NBA without a doubt!

[fourkicks44]

http://www.apbr.org/bbowl.html

ABA were arguably as good as NBA about 72,73 . And then They were better at 74-76 .

Great post. I found this list

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abastatistics/abanbaexhibitions.html

Which has some conflicting/missing information and dates.

I feel the apbr.org seems more legit due to it's detailed descriptions of games.


On a side note by the time the ABA was in it's final years it actually had the majority of young talent as teams focused on picking up the youngest players with the most potential (eg. Moses) and giving them large contracts. This was in attempt to get the best rookies before the NBA did. If the leagues didn't merge it would have been and interesting 5-10 years with the talent in the ABA making it stronger than the NBA.

[JBSptfn]

Yes, the NBA absolutely tried to cripple the 4 ABA teams with heavy fines and penalties for entering the NBA. The Nets basically had to give up Erving to enter the NBA. Imagine if Doc entered the NBA with a full Nets team coming off an ABA Title?

In addition, the 4 ABA teams couldn't be reinforced by the ABA dispersal draft, and they couldn't have draft picks in their first couple of years. Despite all this, Denver and San Antonio were excellent teams, and Indiana was okay. The Nets, playing without their superstar in Doc, were horrible.

That's probably why Indiana had to have a telethon in the summer of 1977 just to get season tickets up and save their team (look it up on You Tube. ESPN did a 30 for 30 about it).

[feyki]

Great post. I found this list

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abastatistics/abanbaexhibitions.html

Which has some conflicting/missing information and dates.

I feel the apbr.org seems more legit due to it's detailed descriptions of games.


On a side note by the time the ABA was in it's final years it actually had the majority of young talent as teams focused on picking up the youngest players with the most potential (eg. Moses) and giving them large contracts. This was in attempt to get the best rookies before the NBA did. If the leagues didn't merge it would have been and interesting 5-10 years with the talent in the ABA making it stronger than the NBA.

Yes , i know that list ; it's fun to read . But those games weren't really competitive . ABA had not a dozen good competitive teams like NBA . And NBA teams were hiding their stars in those game , generally .

But basket bowl wasn't like that . If Bill Russell can get mvp of the game , that game must be competitive . And look at other mvp's ; Hondo,Frazier(with 34,11 and also with %54 ) etc .

And interesting points is that to me , NBA players can hit the 3's almost in everygame :D . Of course , not as good as Louie Dampier :D .

[Psileas]

The more I look into it, the less the "ABA>NBA" idea seems to hold water.

Like I had mentioned a few years ago, with the exception of the games for the 1971-72 season (1st season) the average ABA team (I used weighed averages, to respond to games given for each team) had a better league record than the average NBA team in each of the other seasons. So, the ABA was using per average better teams than the NBA.

Now, I just counted the number of games hosted by ABA teams and by NBA teams. The result? 15 games were played at NBA arenas and 97 (!) at ABA arenas (I counted the Knicks vs Nets games as neutral). The NBA had a 10-5 home court record and a 48-49 visitor record, a weighed 58% winning record. Against "superior" teams. And these were the golden years of the ABA.

[eliteballer]

The ABA was on the verge of folding.

[feyki]

The more I look into it, the less the "ABA>NBA" idea seems to hold water.

Like I had mentioned a few years ago, with the exception of the games for the 1971-72 season (1st season) the average ABA team (I used weighed averages, to respond to games given for each team) had a better league record than the average NBA team in each of the other seasons. So, the ABA was using per average better teams than the NBA.

Now, I just counted the number of games hosted by ABA teams and by NBA teams. The result? 15 games were played at NBA arenas and 97 (!) at ABA arenas (I counted the Knicks vs Nets games as neutral). The NBA had a 10-5 home court record and a 48-49 visitor record, a weighed 58% winning record. Against "superior" teams. And these were the golden years of the ABA.

Do you really think NBA was better in 75 and 76 ?

[Psileas]

Do you really think NBA was better in 75 and 76 ?

Probably. In 1976, you have practically a 7 team league that overused their best teams against an NBA that used a multitude of teams, mostly on ABA courts, as was the case in every season. This is like the current East using mostly its best teams against the whole West (including its weak teams), with most games happening in the East. East's record is going to be better, but it doesn't mean East>West.
Even bigger was the difference in 1975, when the adjusted average record of ABA teams facing NBA teams was 55-29 vs 45-37, with only 3 games happening in NBA arenas. So, is it really a surprise that the ABA had a clearly better record?

[feyki]

Probably. In 1976, you have practically a 7 team league that overused their best teams against an NBA that used a multitude of teams, mostly on ABA courts, as was the case in every season. This is like the current East using mostly its best teams against the whole West (including its weak teams), with most games happening in the East. East's record is going to be better, but it doesn't mean East>West.
Even bigger was the difference in 1975, when the adjusted average record of ABA teams facing NBA teams was 55-29 vs 45-37, with only 3 games happening in NBA arenas. So, is it really a surprise that the ABA had a clearly better record?

I'm not talking about ABA vs NBA exhibition games . Look at their finals , ABA's are looking much better as level of players .

[Kiddlovesnets]

ABA started about as good as NBDL, but in the later years it was actually better than NBA, before it was merged into NBA. The reason why the 70s was such a weak era is that ABA stole a great deal of talents.

[pudman13]

Dunking was frowned upon

I'm tired of this myth. There was plenty of dunking in the NBA throughout the 60s and 70s. Watch the 1975 finals for example...almost as many dunks as in a modern game. It's just that it wasn't really something people did in a stylish way very often (not never--as some 1971 footage of Randy Smith shows). The ABA turned it into an art form.

[Stringer Bell]

Thanks for this thread.

I started watching basketball as a little kid due to Dr. J. He was at the end of his career, but I try to find more of his ABA games. The 1976 ABA finals was his peak.

[SteveJRogers]

The ABA was on the verge of going out of business in 1976 with teams like the Denver Nuggets applying for NBA membership to escape the sinking ship. Merger or no merger 1975-76 was going to be the ABA's final year.

There is that of course. But the question is, what it a better product, not whether or not it was sustainable beyond 1976.

An example from pro wrestling, one could make a case that in late 2000-early 2001 that ECW was putting on a better product than what the WWF was doing at the same time (debatable, Austin and Undertaker's returns and the red hot tag scene were taking the company out of early 2000's doldrums) but they were still hemorrhaging money and folded around the end of January of 2001.

Just because a company is failing in their marketplace, doesn't mean it wasn't a superior product as compared to its competitors.

[Lebron23]

ABA is wcw while nba is wwe.

[fourkicks44]

The NBA has tried to bury the ABA history.

There are more racial undertones to this story than the NBA would like to admit.

Plus Doc and Moses where the best players in the world coming out of the merger into the 80's.

Wilt was gonna jump to the ABA but the bitch ass Lakers threatened to take him to court.

[Lebron23]

Love to see them use the ABA Ball in the 2021 All Star Game

[tanibanana]

Below might be a good description of the difference between the ABA and the NBA:

"The NBA had better centers (KAJ, Wilt, Cowens, Unseld >> Gilmore, Haywood, McGinnis) and the broader (!= better) talent base. However, the NBA was reactionary, static and full of "vanilla" game, i.e. running EVERYTHING thru the C, and heavy usage of pick and roll and lay ups. Dunking was frowned upon, and forwards were thuggy enforcers (Kermit Washington).

The ABA was smaller, more chaotic, but very innovative. They compensated the relative lack of good centers with strong forward play (Erving, Hawkins, Barry, Bobby Jones etc), run and gun, aggressive dunking, 3pt shooting (they actually HAD a 3pt line) and of course the Slam Dunk Contest. The players were sometimes WACKY and were paid less, but they also had a strong "we belong together" feel."

Fair? If you read very carefully the ABA game, it's style of play is well represented in today's era, maybe more than the pre-merger NBA style. People often talk about the NBA from 1976- 1977 onwards, as if it was the same league before that year. It absolutely wasn't.

It couldn't have been. The influx of the ABA players from top players to role players, to coaches and their distinct coaching philosophies were already gradually changing the NBA. The NBA after 1976 was a stronger league(team wise,talent wise), than the NBA before that season. This is just common sense. So a distinction must be made pre- merger and post merger.

After reading up on many of the observers at the time, many have said some of the ABA teams like the Kentucky Colonels and Denver Nuggets were talented enough to win titles in the NBA during the mid 70s. Teams like the Nets who won ABA titles(led by Dr.J) played a more finesse game, and might have struggled more in the pre merger NBA, some said.

Still, NBA champs at the time like Barry's Warriors and Havlicek's Celtics didn't look all that imposing, and I've wondered if there ever had been some kind of "Super Bowl", would the ABA have gotten the better of the NBA. sometime from 1974-1976 before the merger? After all, a star-less Phoenix Suns team pushed that Celtic team to the brink in a classic series. Would a talented Nets team led by a prime Doc have beaten that Celtic team?

When some people say, Doc's Sixers lost to Bill Walton and Portland in the 1st post merger NBA, they forget this is already in the REINFORCED NBA. Indeed, I've seen the discussions here on this board on how key a role Lucas played in winning the title for Portland.

An NBA champ vs. ABA champ would have been just that. The NBA team would have no reinforcements of talent, and the ABA teams would have all that younger talent and innovative coaching (Larry Brown, Hubie Brown) at their disposal. Indeed, CBS wanted this ABA vs. NBA playoff format to happen. Oh how different history would have been if Doc's Nets were given a chance, and defeated the Celtics.

Alas, the NBA would have none of it. After sensing financial weakness, the NBA went for the kill with the merger talks. ABA teams were punished for entry into the NBA by not getting their share of top draft picks in the 1st few years after the merger, but teams like Denver and San Antonio did well anyway winning their divisions.

I was just too young to have seen all these legendary ABA exploits of the Doctor, but the implications of what the ABA represented are potentially enormous in NBA history. All these GOAT discussions have to consider Doc's 2 other ABA titles, and 2 other scoring titles in his prime.

Doc's total would then be 6 Finals appearances(2 in the ABA, 4 in the NBA), and 3 Titles(2 in the ABA, 1 in the NBA). This is still more than Lebron, to this point, and tied with Bird with 3 Titles among SF's.

At the very least, the NBA, in honor of the ABA and it's legacy, should finally count ABA stats.We lift the greats like Erving up their proper place in history, and honor other ABA players who did well but never reached the merger year.

:cheers:

[Kiddlovesnets]

NBA was better until 1972, and ABA was the better league from 1973 to 1976.

[clipps]

That's why they merged. The NBA couldn't handle that they were the 2nd rate league.

[getting_old]

The NBA was better, it could have used a lot of talent that the ABA brought over.

The ABA was a lot more fun, but fun doesn't win titles.

[light]

The ABA saved the NBA. Along with Magic and Bird.

When I was growing up Dr. J was the bee's knees - he was the only player to win MVP in both leagues.