USA Today's GOAT ranking system

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

Article was made in 2003 and I added modern players on to the list using their rating scale. Apparently they were way off adding their numbers in my opinion, but try it yourself.

MJ - 149 pts (I calculated 144)
Wilt - 124 pts (I calculated 117)
Russell - 118 pts (I calculated 115)
Kareem - 114 pts (I calculated 116)
Magic - 102 pts (I calculated 98)
Shaq - 89 pts
Mikan - 88 pts (Don't know how they calculated this)
Kobe - 88 pts
Cousy - 86 pts
Erving - 84 pts (I calculated 83)
Duncan - 79 pts
Bird - 75 pts (I calculated 77)
Havlicek - 72 pts (I calculated 68)
Barry - 70 pts (I calculated 75)
Oscar - 65 pts (I calculated 63)
Lebron - 62 pts
Moses - 57 pts

Their ranking scale:

The top 10 players from each NBA/ABA decade (1950s, '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s, '00s), picked subjectively, were awarded points in 10 categories that were weighted to best reflect overall skill and accomplishments. The categories are also how to compare players across eras. The totals were added to pick the greatest player and the greatest All-Star teams. The categories include NBA and ABA awards.
Categories used:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads

What do you guys think is the best ranking scale?

Fill in the point total you think is the best value for each accomplishment. Put 0 if you think it should not be used. I added a couple of more categories.

Championship Ring =
Finals MVP =
League MVP =
All-NBA first team =
All-Defensive first team =
All-Star team =
Season statistical title =
Playoff statistical title =
Career average leader =
Career playoff average leader =
Career total leader =
Career playoff total leader =

Here's to make it easy to calculate the GOAT list once you come up with your own formula.

MJ
6

[TheMarkMadsen]

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

Article was made in 2003 and I added modern players on to the list using their rating scale. Apparently they were way off adding their numbers in my opinion, but try it yourself.

MJ - 149 pts (I calculated 148)
Wilt - 124 pts (I calculated 151)
Russell - 118 pts (I calculated 117)
Kareem - 114 pts (I calculated 116)
Magic - 102 pts (I calculated 98)
Shaq - 89 pts
Mikan - 88 pts (Don't know how they calculated this)
Kobe - 88 pts
Cousy - 86 pts
Erving - 84 pts (I calculated 88)
Duncan - 79 pts
Bird - 75 pts (I calculated 77)
Havlicek - 72 pts
Barry - 70 pts (I calculated 77)
Oscar - 65 pts
Lebron - 64 pts
Moses - 61 pts

Their grading scale:


What do you guys think is the best ranking scale?

All star game MVP which is an exhibition game, is worth the same amount as being on an all defensive first team that is voted on by COACHES over an 82 game regular season..

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121023213160/degrassi/images/b/b3/Snape-walks-away.gif

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Strong lack of Mikan as GOAT means this system is crap.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Strong lack of Mikan as GOAT means this system is crap.
There were no NBL Finals MVPs, BAA MVPs, BAA Finals MVPs, NBA MVPs, NBA Finals MVPs, or All-Defensive teams during Mikan's prime.

[IncarceratedBob]

Finals MVP should be worth 5
All Star MVP should be worth 0

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt

4 MVPs=20
2 Championships=10
13 All-Star Games=13
7 All-NBA first teams=14
2 All-Defensive first teams=2
1 Finals MVP=2
1 All-Star MVP=1
11 Rebounding titles=22
9 Field goal percentage titles=18
7 Scoring titles=14

Total=117 points

They somehow came up with 124 points though.

Edit: they didn't use minutes leader.

[fpliii]

Even though he was trolling at the time, TripleOchoDagger was spot on back on the old ESPN boards when he proclaimed it was all about "rings and skills".

Really, the point of the sport is to win as often as possible. The greater your ability to help a team attain that goal, the better a player you are. Accolades don't mean much, at all (unless they help fill in the gap when ample tape and/or anecdotes are not available), and box score stats don't tell us that much in a vacuum.

Rings and skills, skills and rings. :pimp:

[Marchesk]

The greater your ability to help a team attain that goal, the better a player you are.

Does that mean Hondo was better than Oscar Robertson and Jerry West? How do we go about determining objectively who helps their team better attain championships?

Can we be sure Wilt wouldn't have the same number of titles had he been drafted a Celtic as Russell ended up with? How many rings would Olajuwon have if Sampson stayed healthy or was traded to Portland for their 2nd pick that draft (Olajuwon + Jordan on the Rockets)?

How many titles does Magic win without Kareem?

Are we penalizing Karl Malone and John Stocton because the Bulls had a better team with a third HOFer (Rodman second three-peat)?

[JohnFreeman]

NBA finals MVP is only two points? Stupid poll.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Since there were no NBL Finals MVPs, BAA MVPs, BAA Finals MVPs, NBA MVPs, NBA Finals MVPs, or All-Defensive teams during Mikan's prime, let's give him some obvious awards

2 NBA Finals MVPs
1 BAA Finals MVP
4 NBA Finals MVPs
Give him at least 1 NBA MVP

That's 19 points, and that is giving him the bare minimum since he would have won more NBA MVPs.

19 points +

5

[fpliii]

Does that mean Hondo was better than Oscar Robertson and Jerry West? How do we go about determining objectively who helps their team better attain championships?

Can we be sure Wilt wouldn't have the same number of titles had he been drafted a Celtic as Russell ended up with? How many rings would Olajuwon have if Sampson stayed healthy or was traded to Portland for their 2nd pick that draft (Olajuwon + Jordan on the Rockets)?

How many titles does Magic win without Kareem?

Are we penalizing Karl Malone and John Stocton because the Bulls had a better team with a third HOFer (Rodman second three-peat)?

That's where the fun is, it's all speculation. Discussing hypotheticals is the most subjective and enjoyable aspect of fandom. I don't know the answer to any of those questions, but I'd love to have discussions regarding all of them.

[Psileas]

Player with 5 ASG's+5 All-NBA+5 All-D=20 points
Robert Horry=35 points

Yeah, it only lasted that much...
Next.

[Riley Martin]

Even though he was trolling at the time, TripleOchoDagger was spot on back on the old ESPN boards when he proclaimed it was all about "rings and skills".

Really, the point of the sport is to win as often as possible. The greater your ability to help a team attain that goal, the better a player you are. Accolades don't mean much, at all (unless they help fill in the gap when ample tape and/or anecdotes are not available), and box score stats don't tell us that much in a vacuum.

Rings and skills, skills and rings. :pimp:

Unfortunately you can't really quantify skills.

[longtime lurker]

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

Article was made in 2003 and I added modern players on to the list using their rating scale. Apparently they were way off adding their numbers in my opinion, but try it yourself.

MJ - 149 pts (I calculated 144)
Wilt - 124 pts (I calculated 117)
Russell - 118 pts (I calculated 115)
Kareem - 114 pts (I calculated 116)
Magic - 102 pts (I calculated 98)
Shaq - 89 pts
Mikan - 88 pts (Don't know how they calculated this)
Kobe - 88 pts
Cousy - 86 pts
Erving - 84 pts (I calculated 83)
Duncan - 79 pts
Bird - 75 pts (I calculated 77)
Havlicek - 72 pts (I calculated 68)
Barry - 70 pts (I calculated 75)
Oscar - 65 pts (I calculated 63)
Lebron - 62 pts
Moses - 57 pts

Their ranking scale:


What do you guys think is the best ranking scale?

All star game MVP should be worth 0(like really who cares?) All defensive team should be worth the same as 1st team. Also where's defensive player of the year?

[cos88]

the all star game mvp should get more points

[MP.Trey]

What a joke of a list. They don't even factor Xmas MVP in. :facepalm

[fpliii]

Unfortunately you can't really quantify skills.
I suppose not, but who says you need to quantify them? No point to rankings IMO.

[Riley Martin]

I suppose not, but who says you need to quantify them? No point to rankings IMO.

Surely you can appreciate the appeal in the quantification of performance/skill/talent in sports, considering the website you run. I suppose we don't need to quantify any part of basketball, but we will continue to because we like to compare and rank different players and teams. Humans like ranking things I guess.

[fpliii]

Surely you can appreciate the appeal in the quantification of performance/skill/talent in sports, considering the website you run. I suppose we don't need to quantify any part of basketball, but we will continue to because we like to compare and rank different players and teams. Humans like ranking things I guess.
idk man.

[rmt]

Duncan is at 84 , not 79. Do they differentiate between off, def or total rebound. If so add, 5 more for most playoff def rebounds.

Stupid point system Anything with all-star game should get 0 points - totally meaningless

[Deuce Bigalow]

Duncan is at 84 , not 79. Do they differentiate between off, def or total rebound. If so add, 5 more for most playoff def rebounds.

Stupid point system Anything with all-star game should get 0 points - totally meaningless
This doesn't count playoff statisical titles. Only counts career average leader, in the playoffs not yearly leader, and its only total rebounds since that is they way they have been tracking it since the beginning. Career rpg leader in the playoffs is Bill Russell and he gets 5 point for that.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I think a better ranking would be if we add yearly playoff leader in a main category, like playoff ppg in '93 for example would be 2 points like being the '93 regular season ppg leader. Also if you have the most of something like Kareem for total points, that deserves points. Allstar MVP should be zero I agree. Finals MVP should be at least 4 points instead of just 2.

Improving their scale I would add these:

Allstar MVP=0
Finals MVP=4
Career totals leader in either pts, reb, ast in regular season=6
Career totals leader in either pts, reb, ast in the Playoffs=5
Leader in either ppg, rpg, apg for a year in the Playoffs=2 or 1

We should create ISH's GOAT ranking system.

[rmt]

I think a better ranking would be if we add yearly playoff leader in a main category, like playoff ppg in '93 for example would be 2 points like being the '93 regular season ppg leader. Also if you have the most of something like Kareem for total points, that deserves points. Allstar MVP should be zero I agree. Finals MVP should be at least 4 points instead of just 2.

Improving their scale I would add these:

Allstar MVP=0
Finals MVP=4
Career totals leader in either pts, reb, ast in regular season=6
Career totals leader in either pts, reb, ast in the Playoffs=5
Leader in either ppg, rpg, apg for a year in the Playoffs=2 or 1

We should create ISH's GOAT ranking system.

Zero points for anything all-star - appearance or MVP - why should a player get anything for a popularity contest? Why would some one get double credit for any ONE year when that's already credited for in career total/average?

[Mr. Jabbar]

cute ranking, but you know its a joke when mikan or shaq are above kobe

[Deuce Bigalow]

Zero points for anything all-star - appearance or MVP - why should a player get anything for a popularity contest? Why would some one get double credit for any ONE year when that's already credited for career total/average?
The best players still make the all-star team so its still an honor, and fans did not vote for them for a big part of the early NBA era. Why just reward a player for leading in scoring for one year in the regular season ie scoring titles. Why not reward a player if he can do it in the playoffs?

[rmt]

The best players still make the all-star team so its still an honor, and fans did not vote for them for a big part of the early NBA era. Why just award a player for leading the scoring for one year in the regular season? Why not award a player if he can do it in the playoffs?

Why reward a player for casual fans voting in him into a meaningless, exhibition all-star game (see Kobe's undeserving spot this year - is he supposed to get a point for GOAT ranking for the little/bad play he's done this year - ridiculous) but nothing for defensive player of the year? Agenda much?

Where on that list do you see any points for scoring champ?

[kshutts1]

A few points:

I know that I am in the VAST minority, but I struggle to count many team-oriented goals on a personal basis.

1) Why such a heavy weight to a championship? Twelve players and multiple coaches had a hand in that victory. Some shares larger than others, but we're talking an individual ranking, yet we use team results? Doesn't make sense.

2) Then if doing away with "team results", obviously Finals MVP has to be gone. Can't be Finals MVP if your team is not good enough to make the Finals in the first place.

3) All star game inclusion? Really? I realize it has not always been the joke that it currently is, but it has always been an exhibition show.

4) Regular season career leaders are worth more points (6) than playoff career leaders (5)? I thought playoffs were more important? Was this done because of the possible weighting issue (less playoff games)?

Mind you, I have no serious issue with championships and other team-related things being counted in, but perhaps lessen the point total.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Why reward a player for casual fans voting in him into a meaningless, exhibition all-star game (see Kobe's undeserving spot this year - is he supposed to get a point for GOAT ranking for the little/bad play he's done this year - ridiculous) but nothing for defensive player of the year? Agenda much?

Where on that list do you see any points for scoring champ?
DPOY's is a relatively new award to factor for ALL-TIME rankings don't you think ?
Scoring, rebounding, assist, fg%, ft% champ in the regular season:
[quote]Individual statistical titles (two points each)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Fill in the point total you think is the best value for each accomplishment. Put 0 if you think it should not be used.

Championship Ring-
Finals MVP-
League MVP-
All-NBA first team-
All-Defensive first team-
All-Star team-
Season statistical title-
Playoff statistical title-
Career average leader-
Career playoff average leader-
Career total leader-
Career playoff total leader-

Something to add (Keep in mind that this is trying to rank players from the '50s, '60s, ect.)-

[Mr. Jabbar]

everything is so subjective when assigning points to categories, the best goat ranking to date is based on eye-test averages

[kshutts1]

Championship Ring- 1
Finals MVP- 1
League MVP- 3
All-NBA first team- 5
All-Defensive first team- 4
All-Star team- 0
Season statistical title- 2
Playoff statistical title- 3
Career average leader- 3
Career playoff average leader- 4
Career total leader- 0 (only reason to add totals is to reward longevity, but that is already "included" with all-nba teams)
Career playoff total leader- 0

[Deuce Bigalow]

Here's to make it easy to calculate the GOAT list once you come up with your own formula.

MJ
6

[bdreason]

Stopped reading at 'points for All-Star selections'.

[rmt]

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]
Duncan
4

[Deuce Bigalow]

Using YOUR playoff statistical titles, wouldn't Duncan also have:

3x playoff points titles (99, 03, 05)
4x playoff rebound titles (99, 03, 05, 07)
Those are yearly playoff totals.

Statistical "titles" is highest per game.

[FrobeShaw]

Stopped reading at 'points for All-Star selections'.

Absolutely. :cheers: :oldlol:

[Rodmantheman]

What a joke of a list. They don't even factor Xmas MVP in. :facepalm

:oldlol:

[Lebron23]

NBA finals MVP is only two points? Stupid poll.


This

Stupid ranking system

Championship as the no.1 = 5 points
Championship as a sidekick 2 1/2
championship as a 3rd scoring option = 1.5

[Deuce Bigalow]

Let me give examples to these so people know what I'm talking about.

Season statistical title = ex. Wilt in '62 led the league in PPG
Playoff statistical title = ex. MJ in '93 led the playoffs in PPG
Career average leader = ex. Magic has the highest regular season career APG
Career playoff average leader = ex. Russell has the highest playoff career RPG
Career total leader = ex. Kareem has the most career regular season points
Career playoff total leader = ex. MJ has the most career playoff points

[Ed Wachter]

What a joke of a list. They don't even factor Xmas MVP in. :facepalm

Xmas as in Christmas? Never heard of that award.

[Deuce Bigalow]

How does this look?

Championship Ring = 5
Finals MVP = 4
League MVP = 5
All-NBA first team = 2
All-Defensive first team = 1
All-Star team = 0 Since everybody doesn't want it
Season statistical title = 2
Playoff statistical title = 2
Career average leader = 6
Career playoff average leader = 6
Career total leader = 6
Career playoff total leader = 6

[guy]

Winning a championship should be worth less. Just winning a championship shouldn't be the equivalent of winning a regular season MVP. I'd say FMVP + championship should be worth more then the regular season MVP, but not by themselves.

And FMVP should be worth more relative to the championship. The FMVP should not be getting 7 points total while every other player on a championship team gets 5 points. There should be a wider gap.

All-Star MVPs should literally not even be included. Its irrelevant.

Statistical titles and career leaders should not be included. That literally means a player could be second in EVERYTHING and wouldn't get shit for it. I'd say it should just be based on the actual stats. For example, if a player averaged 30 or more ppg he gets 5 points, 25-30 he gets 4 points, 20-25 points he gets 3 points, etc.

And I'm just responding to the idea. I don't actually think there's a good way to do this. So much context is left out in these.

[Milbuck]

How many points for playing with the Bucks? Kareem's gotta be the gOAT

[Rodmantheman]

How many points for playing with the Bucks? Kareem's gotta be the gOAT

screw the bucks:oldlol:

[rmt]

Those are yearly playoff totals.

Statistical "titles" is highest per game.

So by your criteria, if some one scores/rebounds/assists a lot in only one game and doesn't even play in the other games and/or their team loses (gets swept in the 1st round), they'd get x amount of points toward a GOAT system. That shows how flawed your criteria is - at least going by totals instead would mean that he got to the Finals or won.

[Pacer24]

That list is terrible. Where's Olajuwon and West, And Bird should be way higher

[Deuce Bigalow]

So by your criteria, if some one scores/rebounds/assists a lot in only one game and doesn't even play in the other games and their team loses (gets swept in the 1st round), they'd get x amount of points toward a GOAT system. That shows how flawed that criteria is - at least going by totals instead would mean that they got to the Finals or won.
Then that would mean that they gets points because they played a couple more games than everyone else allowing them to amass a bigger total, and the reason why they play more games is because their team is one of the best, just using your logic against you. You want yearly playoff totals on a GOAT ranking then go ahead and use it and post results.

[Deuce Bigalow]

That list is terrible. Where's Olajuwon and West, And Bird should be way higher
Hakeem and West are under 60 points using the article's ranking. Oscar's on there.

[rmt]

Then that would mean that they gets points because they played a couple more games than everyone else allowing them to amass a bigger total, and the reason why they play more games is because their team is one of the best, just using your logic against you. You want yearly playoff totals on a GOAT ranking then go ahead and use it and post results.

It's not my criteria - it's YOURS - you're the one stuck on using yearly playoff averages. I think that's double counting when they already get credit for career (a much better measure) playoff stats. Just pointing out the flaw in using a playoff ppg/rpg/apg for only one year for GOAT purposes.

[Deuce Bigalow]

It's not my criteria - it's YOURS - you're the one stuck on using yearly playoff averages. I think that's double counting when they already get credit for career (a much better measure) playoff stats. Just pointing out the flaw in using a playoff ppg/rpg/apg for only one year for GOAT purposes.
It's not a flaw. How is leading a category in the playoff bad? And it doesn't "double count" because being the career leader is for career average not an average for a year, and only one player has the career average title while dozens of different players have been a yearly leader. I want players like Baylor, West, and Pettit to get credit for leading the playoffs in scoring. Anybody can use whatever criteria they want, go ahead and use whatever you like :confusedshrug:

[TheCorporation]

Xmas as in Christmas? Never heard of that award.

:coleman:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Using this scale

Championship Ring = 5
Finals MVP = 4
League MVP = 5
All-NBA first team = 2
All-Defensive first team = 1
Season statistical title = 2
Playoff statistical title = 2
Career average leader = 6
Career playoff average leader = 6
Career total leader = 6
Career playoff total leader = 6
MJ-166
Wilt-138
Russell-123
Kareem-121
Magic-101
Cousy-97
Mikan-82
Kobe-79
Shaq-79
Duncan-70
Barry-66
Bird-64
Oscar-60
Lebron-59
Erving-58
Havlicek-57
Moses-53
West-51
Hakeem-50

I think maybe MVP voting would improve this.
MVP-5
2nd place-4
3rd place-3
4th place-2
5th place-1

Maybe a 1 point for a finals appearance too.

[pauk]

The five points for championship part is what makes that whole ranking system fail miserably, there has to be CONTEXT.... because if its five points for a championship, that means its five points nevertheless of how/who that championship was accumulated by.... meaning Robert Horry > Reggie Miller....

Also when we value a players career using that team accomplishment (rings) we are NEVER looking at the quantity... but the quality....

Five points for MVP is acceptable because the context/quality is always unmistakable, only one special player gets the MVP... but literally anybody can get a Championship, even me and i dont even have to lift a finger.... but i still have 5 points as the MVP guy....?

You can still use this points system, but based on context, categories/exceptions, something like:

Championship as the man/best player & preferably FMVP: 5 Points, because YOU were mostly accountable for that championship.
Championship as a sidekick: 3 Points, because you were honorably accountable.
Championship as a roleplayer: 1 Point, because you were partially accountable or not accountable at all.

[pauk]

NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won as the man (five points each)
NBA championships won as a sidekick (three points each)
NBA championships won as a roleplayer (one point each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads


Thats the correct way to go..... try that and your list will be much closer to being correct....

[Mr Feeny]

The five points for championship part is what makes that whole ranking system fail miserably, there has to be CONTEXT.... because if its five points for a championship, that means its five points nevertheless of how/who that championship was accumulated by.... meaning Robert Horry > Reggie Miller....

Also when we value a players career using that team accomplishment (rings) we are NEVER looking at the quantity... but the quality....

.

Agreed. Based on that criteria, Horry would have 35 points:facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

Championship Ring = 5
Finals appearance = 1
Finals MVP = 4
League MVP = 5
2nd place MVP = 4
3rd place MVP = 3
4th place MVP = 2
5th place MVP = 1
All-NBA first team = 2
All-Defensive first team = 1
Season statistical title = 2
Playoff statistical title = 2
Career average leader = 6
Career playoff average leader = 6
Career total leader = 6
Career playoff total leader = 6

MJ-190
Wilt-159
Kareem-149
Russell-153
Magic-130
Cousy-111
Kobe-108
Shaq-104
Duncan-92
Bird-90
Mikan-87
West-82
Oscar-80
Lebron-73
Barry-72
Erving-71
Hakeem-63
Moses-62

[Mr Feeny]

Championship Ring = 5
Finals appearance = 1
Finals MVP = 4
League MVP = 5
2nd place MVP = 4
3rd place MVP = 3
4th place MVP = 2
5th place MVP = 1
All-NBA first team = 2
All-Defensive first team = 1
Season statistical title = 2
Playoff statistical title = 2
Career average leader = 6
Career playoff average leader = 6
Career total leader = 6
Career playoff total leader = 6

MJ-190
Wilt-159
Kareem-149
Russell-153
Magic-130
Cousy-111
Kobe-108
Shaq-104
Duncan-92
Bird-90
Mikan-87
West-82
Oscar-80
Lebron-73
Barry-72
Erving-71
Hakeem-63
Moses-61

Deuce, you're a good poster, but is it possible that your Kobe bias is clouding your judgement a bit? Any list with Bob Cousy and Kobe Bryant ahead of Larry bird and Lebron surely must be flawed on some level. What does your own personal top ten list look like btw?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Deuce, you're a good poster, but is it possible that your Kobe bias is clouding your judgement a bit? Any list with Bob Cousy and Kobe Bryant ahead of Larry bird and Lebron surely must be flawed on some level. What does your own personal top ten list look like btw?
1-MJ
2-Russell
3-Kareem
4-Magic
5-Bird
6-Shaq
7-Kobe
8-Duncan
9-Mikan
10-West
11-Wilt
12-Hakeem
13-Lebron
14-Oscar

[Lebron23]

[QUOTE=pauk]NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won as the man (five points each)
NBA championships won as a sidekick (three points each)
NBA championships won as a roleplayer (one point each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each)

[Lebron23]

and a player with 4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP will always be better than a player with only 2x NBA Finals MVP, and 1x MVP. That player also have better overall stats in the regular season, playoffs, and in the finals.

[Deuce Bigalow]

and a player with 4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP will always be better than a player with only 2x NBA Finals MVP, and 1x MVP. That player also have better overall stats in the regular season, playoffs, and in the finals.
Not if that guy is a 5x champion, been to 7 finals, 2x scoring champion, Lakers alltime leading scorer, 4th on the alltime scoring list, 3rd on the alltime playoff scoring list, 11x all-nba first team, 15x allstar, 9x all-defensive first team, top 5 in mvp voting 11x, top 3 in mvp voting 5x, has the 3rd most 40 point games alltime, 3rd most 50 point games alltime, and the 3rd most 30 point playoff games alltime.

[Lebron23]

Not if that guy is a 5x champion, been to 7 finals, 2x scoring champion, Lakers alltime leading scorer, 4th on the alltime scoring list, 3rd on the alltime playoff scoring list, 11x all-nba first team, 15x allstar, 9x all-defensive first team, top 5 in mvp voting 11x, top 3 in mvp voting 5x, has the 3rd most 40 point games alltime, 3rd most 50 point games alltime, and the 3rd most 30 point playoff games alltime.


Lebron with 3 NBA Finals MVP will be rank higher than Kobe. Only four or five NBA players have more than 2 NBA Finals MVP Trophy. (Jordan (6), Russell ( 6 or 7 if the awards exist during his era), Magic, Duncan and shaq (3 NBA Finals MVP).

[Mr Feeny]

It's hard to go wrong because pretty much everyone has the same players in their top 12-14 lists, albiet in different orders. But im with Lebron23 here. I just can't objectively rank Kobe Bryant ahead of Lebron James, even though a considerable bunch might genuinely believe that to be the case.
I know that Lebron comes across as a juvenile irreverent pr'ick but the fact that he has 6 total mvps (including finals mvp's) at the age of 29 is remarkable. I believe that he is tied for third most all time with Magic, beind only Kareem (8) and Jordan (11)

[Lebron23]

Where would you rank 8x NBA Champion John Havlicek and Bob Cousy, and 6x NBA Champion Scottie Pippen???

[BoutPractice]

There are no objective GOATs. The best you can come up with is some sort of consensus ranking that most people would consider "reasonable", even as they might disagree about the order.

My preferred system would be to gather as much data as possible on who were considered the top 3/5 best players in the league each given year, taking into account both regular season and playoffs... then render it in the form of a point system such that both longevity and peak are rewarded (longevity because it's season by season, and peak because the more evidence in your favour for each particular season, the more points you'd get in that season).
This would probably yield a list most would agree with that would be based on more than subjective opinions. There would still be a few problems, such as how to weigh the ABA vs the NBA, and you would have the hardcore "weak era" proponents complaining that the earlier eras need some kind of discount, but I suspect this would be a minority opinion and the goal would be consensus, not unanimity which is impossible.

Edit: In fact the problem with such a ranking is that, if anything, earlier eras would be at a disadvantage if you put too much data into the system, because certain stats weren't being kept track of, there were less awards, less surveys etc. So the system would need to account for that.

[stanlove1111]

Finals MVP should be worth 5
All Star MVP should be worth 0

Why would finals MVP be worth 5 points. The obsession with finals MVP on this board is about the dumbest thing I have come across on the internet.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Where would you rank 8x NBA Champion John Havlicek and Bob Cousy, and 6x NBA Champion Scottie Pippen???
Cousy is a 6x champ btw. I don't know exactly where I'd rank them but they would not make my top 20. Havlicek and Cousy have a good case for top 25 though.

[Deuce Bigalow]

There are no objective GOATs. The best you can come up with is some sort of consensus ranking that most people would consider "reasonable", even as they might disagree about the order.

My preferred system would be to gather as much data as possible on who were considered the top 3/5 best players in the league each given year, taking into account both regular season and playoffs... then render it in the form of a point system such that both longevity and peak are rewarded (longevity because it's season by season, and peak because the more evidence in your favour for each particular season, the more points you'd get in that season).
This would probably yield a list most would agree with that would be based on more than subjective opinions. There would still be a few problems, such as how to weigh the ABA vs the NBA, and you would have the hardcore "weak era" proponents complaining that the earlier eras need some kind of discount, but I suspect this would be a minority opinion and the goal would be consensus, not unanimity which is impossible.

Edit: In fact the problem with such a ranking is that, if anything, earlier eras would be at a disadvantage if you put too much data into the system, because certain stats weren't being kept track of, there were less awards, less surveys etc. So the system would need to account for that.
The newest ranking that I did factored in top 5 in MVP voting. MVP is 5 pts, 2nd place is 4, 3rd is 3, 4th is 2, and 5th is 1 point. MVP doesn't mean best player obviously but I think using the top 5 MVP players each year includes the top 3/5 players for that given year.

I found this from another thread by Alan Ogg. Makes calculating top 5 MVP points very easy.

http://i.imgur.com/mmskUBi.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PbMmLQP.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/K8h7BjH.jpg

You need to look up '73-'79 and '01 on bball reference. I could not find the top 5 in ABA MVP voting, they only have the winner it seems.

[BoutPractice]

The problem is that MVP voting doesn't necessarily equate to "best player" voting, as you can see in the case of Nash and Rose. It's probably better than some alternatives, but it would have been so much simpler if there had been a survey on who the best player in the league was, conducted after the end of a season (regular season + playoffs, but not right after the Finals in order to avoid overreaction) among say, players, coaches, execs, and fans, which you could then average.

Instead I'd rather settle for a retrospective evaluation of who the best player in the league was any given year, but the problem is who's doing the evaluating. It needs to be somewhat knowledgeable people otherwise they'll just look for stats awards and titles, disregarding the other subtle evidence. There was a good year by year "best player" topic on ISH but I forgot who did it. Maybe if you take a topic like that, and add era-translatable stats to distinguish the extent of dominance from the best player, converting the two into a point system, you'd have a nice looking list.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The problem is that MVP voting doesn't necessarily equate to "best player" voting, as you can see in the case of Nash and Rose. It's probably better than some alternatives, but it would have been so much simpler if there had been a survey on who the best player in the league was, conducted after the end of a season (regular season + playoffs, but not right after the Finals in order to avoid overreaction) among say, players, coaches, execs, and fans, which you could then average.

Instead I'd rather settle for a retrospective evaluation of who the best player in the league was any given year, but the problem is who's doing the evaluating. It needs to be somewhat knowledgeable people otherwise they'll just look for stats awards and titles, disregarding the other subtle evidence. There was a good year by year "best player" topic on ISH but I forgot who did it. Maybe if you take a topic like that, and add era-translatable stats to distinguish the extent of dominance from the best player, converting the two into a point system, you'd have a nice looking list.
You can't really find that list though. We can only go by what we have. I think the ranking turned out pretty good though. 9 of what we know as "consensus" top 10 players made the top 10. The only real outlier was Bob Cousy.

MJ-190
Wilt-159
Kareem-149
Russell-153
Magic-130
Cousy-111
Kobe-108
Shaq-104
Duncan-92
Bird-90

[Dr.J4ever]

Finally, a ranking system where Erving>Bird. Yes! If you include ABA stats, Doc is really better than Bird.