Star a franchise : K.Bryant or D.Robinson ?

[Tycriss]

Star a franchise :

K.Bryant
http://www.basket-jusqua-pas-dheure.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/KobeBryant-pic.bmp

or

D.Robinson
http://basket-infos.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/spurs13_resize.jpg

[Nets fan 93]

Kobe Bryant.

[LeBron 06]

Kobe Bryant

[imdaman99]

Kobe Bryant

[Bob Dole]

David Robinson and it's honestly not that hard of a choice. Kobe is a great player and definitely one of the 10 best perimeter players of all time. Saying that, he still doesn't impact a game on the level that any great big man does.

I would reserve that for MJ, magic, larry, lebron, and probably oscar. David Robinson was an extremely talented big man and honestly until Hakeem's great 2 year run (where he easily outplayed David) many people at that time would take him before Hakeem.

I'll wait for the kobe ******gers to come in and talk about rings but if you know anything about impact on basketball, David is above Kobe.

[kc16]

The Black Mamba a.k.a Kobe Bryant.

[Bandito]

Big man >>>

[kurple]

d-rob

[Eye Test]

the better looking one

[Mr Exlax]

D Rob I think. I could with Kobe just as well though. I often have a big man bias.

[cos88]

if i'm not getting phil or shaq i'll pick d-rob and watch him average 35 and 15 vs miles plumbee or spencer hawes.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

d-Rob is the better player and would have been higher all time too with a few more ships( if him and duncan played together longer)

[highwhey]

The big man. Look what indiana is doing with Roy Hibbert, a lesser talented big. That tells you everything you need to know about the current state of the league. Big men can have a bigger impact, especially if your team can anchor their defense through him. Nowadays, perimeter players are available on every corner, obviously kobe is on a whole different tier but with a big man like Drob you won't need kobe

[Akrazotile]

The smart peoples answer is Robinson.

The average fan who buys whatever the NBA sells answer is Kobe.

[Rose'sACL]

The big man. Look what indiana is doing with Roy Hibbert, a lesser talented big. That tells you everything you need to know about the current state of the league. Big men can have a bigger impact, especially if your team can anchor their defense through him. Nowadays, perimeter players are available on every corner, obviously kobe is on a whole different tier but with a big man like Drob you won't need kobe
exactly what does hibbert do offensively that u guys underrate big man defense in current league?
he only goes off against miami which plays small.
there are enough big men in current league that are good defensively. they are not that good offensively. if hibbert was averaging 20 ppg then i would get your point. he averages 12.5 ppg. his defense is great.
big men from any presvious era would feast on heat and a few teams like heat but would only average may be 2 ppg more in current league.
the only big men who would play better in current league would be the ones who played well close as well as away from basket. duncan is the best example of that kind of player. he can still play well in current league because he can hit those mid range jumpers because you will be doubled in post if you can't hit jumpers.
i would take robinson because it is way easier to build around a big man. kobe still is the better player of the two.

[freshperry]

If I was a poor franchise I would choose D.Rob for basketball reasons above. You always go with the bigman because they just have more of an impact and are a lot harder to find. However if I was a mega rich franchise like the Lakers, I would definitely choose Kobe because he is so marketable. He easily pays for his own contract through tv ratings and sold out games, which allows me to focus on the role players to construct a very good team.

[Uncle Drew]

Robinson. Always go big. Unless the name of the other player is Michael Jordan.

[uber]

exactly what does hibbert do offensively that u guys underrate big man defense in current league?
he only goes off against miami which plays small.
there are enough big men in current league that are good defensively. they are not that good offensively. if hibbert was averaging 20 ppg then i would get your point. he averages 12.5 ppg. his defense is great.


You do realise that he isn't their go to scorer? Other than George who's avg 22 ppg the rest of the pacers starting 5 is avg pretty similar numbers (between 10 and 13 ppg). He could score more but they don't need him to.

[Rose'sACL]

You do realise that he isn't their go to scorer? Other than George who's avg 22 ppg the rest of the pacers starting 5 is avg pretty similar numbers (between 10 and 13 ppg). He could score more but they don't need him to.
he can at max average 15 ppg for whole season without making pacers losing a lot of games. any more and pacers can say good bye to may be even 50+ wins.

[Crafty]

The big man.

Also, David Robinson agains today's centers ...

[fandarko]

David Robinson and it's honestly not that hard of a choice. Kobe is a great player and definitely one of the 10 best perimeter players of all time. Saying that, he still doesn't impact a game on the level that any great big man does.

I would reserve that for MJ, magic, larry, lebron, and probably oscar. David Robinson was an extremely talented big man and honestly until Hakeem's great 2 year run (where he easily outplayed David) many people at that time would take him before Hakeem.

I'll wait for the kobe ******gers to come in and talk about rings but if you know anything about impact on basketball, David is above Kobe.


It's a tough choice, but Robinson was like 24 when he joined the NBA and Kobe was 18.

Robinson was projected as the next big center and a perrenial all-star, no miss great big, while Kobe was a high risk-high reward prospect who was not guaranteed to pan out like he did.

Without knowing the future, I would definitely take D-Rob as a cornerstone of a franchise. With a time machine, I would seriously consider taking Kobe, guaranteeing me success at the counter, advertizing revenue and the whole thing. Depends on the approach.

But I think no way anyone's taking 18-year old high school wing phenom over a 7-1 absolute monster of a big man.

[HurricaneKid]

People repeatedly fail to acknowledge the impact of an elite rim protector and until his back went DRob was that.

RAPM is a great stat; it measures the complete impact of a player on both sides of the court. It is measured in regard to the impact per 100 possessions on team points. DRob led the NBA in 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 97. I think the highest Kobe was ever ranked was #20.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

[FrobeShaw]

Robinson and it's not even close.

[Milbuck]

We kinda need a 2. We have Giannis, Henson, and Sandman in the backcourt, and BKnight needs a backcourt partner. I'll take Kobe

[New Order]

Kobe if you want to sell jerseys. D-rob if you want to win games.

[alec613]

Bigs > Guards.

Doesn't matter who the better player is, always go for bigs

[andgar923]

there's no easy or more delicate way to put it...

Anybody that picks Kobe is an idiot.

Specially basing a franchise on rookie Kobe, a recipe for disaster.

[Im Still Ballin]

d-rob and it aint even close.

[IncarceratedBob]

If you give me pop and Duncan I'll take Robinson

[sundizz]

exactly what does hibbert do offensively that u guys underrate big man defense in current league?
he only goes off against miami which plays small.
there are enough big men in current league that are good defensively. they are not that good offensively. if hibbert was averaging 20 ppg then i would get your point. he averages 12.5 ppg. his defense is great.
big men from any presvious era would feast on heat and a few teams like heat but would only average may be 2 ppg more in current league.
the only big men who would play better in current league would be the ones who played well close as well as away from basket. duncan is the best example of that kind of player. he can still play well in current league because he can hit those mid range jumpers because you will be doubled in post if you can't hit jumpers.
i would take robinson because it is way easier to build around a big man. kobe still is the better player of the two.

This is actually quite true. Even though we seem to hate on the current era of big men a lot...they stack up pretty well. They don't have nearly the offensive capabilities, but overall they are pretty solid defenders. For anyone that thinks otherwise name the top 15 defensive centers during Robinson's prime to compare against the current ones:

1. Dwightmare
2. Roy Hibbert
3. Marc Gasol
4. Joakim Noah
5. Andrew Bogut
6. Andre Drummond
7. Omer Asik
8. Tim Duncan
9. Deandre Jordan
10. Nikola Pekovic
11. Martin Gortat

Larry Sanders (when healthy)
Tyson Chandler (when healthy)
Andrew Bynum (when healthy)

**these are regular season personal rankings. Duncan would of course step it up in the playoffs (as would Noah).

[FrobeShaw]

This is actually quite true. Even though we seem to hate on the current era of big men a lot...they stack up pretty well. They don't have nearly the offensive capabilities, but overall they are pretty solid defenders. For anyone that thinks otherwise name the top 15 defensive centers during Robinson's prime to compare against the current ones:

1. Dwightmare
2. Roy Hibbert
3. Marc Gasol
4. Joakim Noah
5. Andrew Bogut
6. Andre Drummond
7. Omer Asik
8. Tim Duncan
9. Deandre Jordan
10. Nikola Pekovic
11. Martin Gortat

Larry Sanders (when healthy)
Tyson Chandler (when healthy)
Andrew Bynum (when healthy)

**these are regular season personal rankings. Duncan would of course step it up in the playoffs (as would Noah).


:roll:

[coolhandsteve]

If I was a poor franchise I would choose D.Rob for basketball reasons above. You always go with the bigman because they just have more of an impact and are a lot harder to find. However if I was a mega rich franchise like the Lakers, I would definitely choose Kobe because he is so marketable. He easily pays for his own contract through tv ratings and sold out games, which allows me to focus on the role players to construct a very good team.

:applause: This. The Admiral generally gets a damper on his rep because of the '95 WCF and Duncan helping him get 2 rings & people forget just how good he was. Aside from the '95 WCF where the Dream dominated him for like 5 of the 6 games D-Rob did very well against Hakeem if I'm not mistaken.

Kobe's my favorite now, so no added explanation there. It's just hard to pass up on a guy who can average 35 PPG in his prime.

[SexSymbol]

Kobe, pretty easily.
Greater player, great leader, one of the best money makers for your club ever

[avonbarksdale]

kobe...come on

[pegasus]

Easily Kobe.

[SexSymbol]

This is actually quite true. Even though we seem to hate on the current era of big men a lot...they stack up pretty well. They don't have nearly the offensive capabilities, but overall they are pretty solid defenders. For anyone that thinks otherwise name the top 15 defensive centers during Robinson's prime to compare against the current ones:

1. Dwightmare
2. Roy Hibbert
3. Marc Gasol
4. Joakim Noah
5. Andrew Bogut
6. Andre Drummond
7. Omer Asik
8. Tim Duncan
9. Deandre Jordan
10. Nikola Pekovic
11. Martin Gortat

Larry Sanders (when healthy)
Tyson Chandler (when healthy)
Andrew Bynum (when healthy)

**these are regular season personal rankings. Duncan would of course step it up in the playoffs (as would Noah).
Defensively Hibbert, noah, duncan, Marc >DH

[Swedish Chef]

Yuoo poot Jeffffery Teylur es yuoor ster pleyer...yuoo cunnut luse-a. Bork Bork Bork!

[tragicbronson]

Those who pick Kobe obviously ignore that kobe, and every other player/team needed a big to win titles, there are exceptions like 90s bulls and heat but that's another conversion. As many in this thread said, you always want to start a franchise with a big dominant cornerstone and build around him. Kobe done many things himself but he won titles with Shaq and Gasol...

[Cold soul]

Kobe easily. Kobe was the greater player and had munch better career.

[Smoke117]

Robinson.

[Anaximandro1]

Robinson

:applause:

[HurricaneKid]

RAPM is a great stat; it measures the complete impact of a player on both sides of the court. It is measured in regard to the impact per 100 possessions on team points. DRob led the NBA in 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 97. I think the highest Kobe was ever ranked was #20.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

All these people saying Kobe was the greater player did not watch basketball in the early 90s. PERIOD.

7 years top 3 in PER (during peak MJ, Barkley, Shaq, etc) for the Admiral, including leading the league 3 straight years. ONE for Kobe (3rd in 06).

On TOP of his remarkable RAPM.

Kobe's statistical achievements simply don't stand up under any scrutiny.

[christian1923]

The guy who won 5 rings.

[chazzy]

Kobe didnt drop off as frequently as DRob did in the playoffs and had better longevity

[King Jane]

Kobe. Robinson is a more primitive and slightly less athletic version of Dwight, and he played In the era before defenses even understood what fronting the post was so not sure how well he would do in todays era however we know Kobe can hang with today's athletes. So Kobe just to avoid all the uncertainties.

[Mure]

D-Rob.

[TheMarkMadsen]

If the topic has to do with Paul George being a top player in the league, the same people picking Robinson are the same people who claim Hibbert is the best player on the best team in the NBA

who will then in a totally unrelated discussion turn around and pick 20 other players in the league they'd rather have over Hibbert..

ISH in a nut shell

[Element]

Kobe and its not close lmfao

Watch admiral suck offensively in the playoffs when his easy baskets stop being handed to him

[G-Funk]

Kobe

[HurricaneKid]

Kobe didnt drop off as frequently as DRob did in the playoffs

This is laughably inaccurate.

[PJR]

All the dominant centers of the modern era of basketball, I'm taking over any perimeter player to start my franchise. And the only perimeter players that would even be in that discussion are Michael, LBJ, and Magic due to the fact those three either had freak athleticism and or size for their position. Dominant big man are just far too easier to build around, and they literally effect every possession on both ends when they're on the court. No perimeter player has that type of impact.

[HurricaneKid]

Kobe and its not close lmfao

Watch admiral suck offensively in the playoffs when his easy baskets stop being handed to him

I just went to look up their career playoff stats and its DRob. By a lot. PER, efficiency, TS%, whatever you want. And that doesn't even address that DRob was an all time great defender and Kobe... wasn't.

[chazzy]

This is laughably inaccurate.
Look at Drobs TS% drop off year by year and the amount of times he lost with HCA. It's well known that his offense isn't as dominant when the game slows down in the playoffs. And longevity? Seriously

[Element]

I just went to look up their career playoff stats and its DRob. By a lot. PER, efficiency, TS%, whatever you want. And that doesn't even address that DRob was an all time great defender and Kobe... wasn't.

during his playoff prime, he averages 21.8 ppg on .546 TS%. That is, by all accounts, horrible for a first option. You can't run your offense through this guy. Kobe is at 28.8 @ .545 TS% as a wing player. And those numbers are heavily surpressed by the early 00s, aka the GOAT defensive era, whereas Robinson's are inflated by the high pace early 90's (he's best as a transition scorer, not a go to guy down low).

Give Kobe Pau Gasol and he wins two straight lol. Give Robinson the wing equivalent, which would be a higher scoring Nicolas Batum...does he win anything? Individual O>Individual D in the playoffs.

[Clyde]

do we draft knowing that Robinson is in the Navy and wont play for 1-2 years?

[PJR]

Give Kobe Pau Gasol and he wins two straight lol. Give Robinson the wing equivalent, which would be a higher scoring Nicolas Batum...does he win anything? Individual O>Individual D in the playoffs.


Pau Gasol = Nic Batum?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[rmt]

Kobe. Robinson is a more primitive and slightly less athletic version of Dwight, and he played In the era before defenses even understood what fronting the post was so not sure how well he would do in todays era however we know Kobe can hang with today's athletes. So Kobe just to avoid all the uncertainties.

More primitive? DRob was more polished than Dwight Howard. And as far as athletic ability, DRob was no slouch himself - plus he's much bigger without giving up much if anything on speed, quickness, agility. For bball IQ, leadership, team work, unselfishness, DRob is way ahead of DH.

Anyway, I'd pick DRob over Kobe - hard to pass up a two-way BIG man especially in today's league.

[FrobeShaw]

More primitive? DRob was more polished than Dwight Howard. And as far as athletic ability, DRob was no slouch himself - plus he's much bigger without giving up much or anything on speed, quickness, agility. For bball IQ, leadership, team work, unselfishness, DRob is way ahead of DH.

Anyway, I'd pick DRob over Kobe - hard to pass up a two-way BIG man especially in today's league.

He's a troll. 100%. Read his posts and never reply again. His gimmick is to shit on everyone who's not in the league anymore.

[rmt]

Pau Gasol = Nic Batum?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

LOL - Nic Batum - when has he ever been one of the best wings in the league? Kobe stans fail to acknowledge that Kobe hasn't won anything without one of the best bigs in the game - whether it be Shaq or Gasol. But sure let's give DRob a higher scoring Nic Batum and call it even.

[King Jane]

He's a troll. 100%. Read his posts and never reply again. His gimmick is to shit on everyone who's not in the league anymore.
Gimmick? No. I'm just sick of all you nostalgic fools acting like past players could hang in today's era. Basketball and athletes now are better than they ever have been. Just look at 100 meter times. Jesse Owens wouldn't beat most inner city kids in a foot race today let alone compete for a country. In basketball look at seventh woods. Already more athletic than any past player ever and he's only 14. Evolution. Learn about it.

[PJR]

LOL - Nic Batum - when has he ever been one of the best wings in the league? Kobe stans fail to acknowledge that Kobe hasn't won anything without one of the best bigs in the game - whether it be Shaq or Gasol. But sure let's give DRob a higher scoring Nic Batum and call it even.

Here's the funny thing,

When Kobe actually had an actual "higher scoring Nic Batum" as his next best player, that being Lamar Odom, the Lakers went to the lottery one year, and had two first round exits. :oldlol:

Kobe fanatics are so hilarious I tell ya.

[Xiao Yao You]

Admiral

[rmt]

Gimmick? No. I'm just sick of all you nostalgic fools acting like past players could hang in today's era. Basketball and athletes now are better than they ever have been. Just look at 100 meter times. Jesse Owens wouldn't beat most inner city kids in a foot race today let alone compete for a country. In basketball look at seventh woods. Already more athletic than any past player ever and he's only 14. Evolution. Learn about it.

If players of the past had access to the same medical treatment, nutrition, hyperbaric chambers, diets, training equipment, masseuses, shooting coaches, statistical data, private jets, etc., they'd probably be performing at better levels too. And even with all this modern technology, nothing changes how DUMB some of these players are today.

Same with tennis players today - travelling coach, masseuse, personal trainer, chef, gluten-free diets, etc.

And evolution, if you believe in it, doesn't happen in an 80 year span.

1. How long does evolution take?

Even though evolution is taking place all around us, for many species the process operates so slowly that it is not observable except over thousands or hundreds of thousands of years -- much too long to witness in a human lifetime.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat06.html

[Combat Wombat]

Unless their name is Magic, MJ or Bird then you're always going to build around a bigman.

[thefatmiral]

i'm obviously bias towards robinson, but kobe is the better player individually but at this current time dropping in a prime robinson would be a bomb. no c is athletically on his level, you pick robinson, you should.

[16X]

Robinson needed the GOAT PF to get to the Finals. Bryant only needed Pau, and made more Finals with Pau (not even mentioning the other four he went to without Pau). Give me Bryant.

[DaOldLion]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GR0ovnh9-U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qnhjlEZdwo

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/9988/kobe.gif

[rmt]

Robinson needed the GOAT PF to get to the Finals. Bryant only needed Pau, and made more Finals with Pau (not even mentioning the other four he went to without Pau). Give me Bryant.

Oh, you mean the four he needed the MDE for. LOL.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Oh, you mean the four he needed the MDE for. LOL.


The "MDE" who went to 2 finals w/o Kobe and won 1

Kobe who went to 3 finals w/o Shaq and won 2

LOL

[PJR]

Robinson needed the GOAT PF to get to the Finals. Bryant only needed Pau, and made more Finals with Pau (not even mentioning the other four he went to without Pau). Give me Bryant.

I like how you say "Only Pau" as if Pau wasn't a marquee player at his respective position.

Gasol was a featured player on those Memphis Grizzlies teams that made the post-season four times in the West, including 50 and 49 win teams most talented were James Posey, Mike Miller, Shane Battier, Stromile Swift, and White Chocolate Jason Williams. Basically a bunch of role players.

"Only Pau"...Ya Pau is a great friggin basketball player, and is going to the hall of fame. Dumbasses. :oldlol:

[Illuminati]

Not sure if troll thread. D-Rob, by a fairly large margin too.

[AnaheimLakers24]

kobe.

[Keno]

I choose Robinson too.

[Combat Wombat]

I like how you say "Only Pau" as if Pau wasn't a marquee player at his respective position.

Gasol was a featured player on those Memphis Grizzlies teams that made the post-season four times in the West, including 50 and 49 win teams most talented were James Posey, Mike Miller, Shane Battier, Stromile Swift, and White Chocolate Jason Williams. Basically a bunch of role players.

"Only Pau"...Ya Pau is a great friggin basketball player, and is going to the hall of fame. Dumbasses. :oldlol:

How many post-season wins did Pau have prior to joining Kobe?

[rmt]

The "MDE" who went to 2 finals w/o Kobe and won 1

Kobe who went to 3 finals w/o Shaq and won 2

LOL

16x and I are talking about "the other four (Finals) he went to without Pau" - meaning those he went to with Shaq, of which he got 3 of his 5 titles. The team mate argument doesn't fly. Shaq, at his very peak vs a 2nd year Duncan. 03 Duncan, yes, but DRob was 38 years old with a bad back then - hardly comparable to any year (except maybe the first) that Kobe went to the Finals.


Robinson needed the GOAT PF to get to the Finals. Bryant only needed Pau, and made more Finals with Pau (not even mentioning the other four he went to without Pau). Give me Bryant.

[16X]

I like how you say "Only Pau" as if Pau wasn't a marquee player at his respective position.

Gasol was a featured player on those Memphis Grizzlies teams that made the post-season four times in the West, including 50 and 49 win teams most talented were James Posey, Mike Miller, Shane Battier, Stromile Swift, and White Chocolate Jason Williams. Basically a bunch of role players.

"Only Pau"...Ya Pau is a great friggin basketball player, and is going to the hall of fame. Dumbasses. :oldlol:
Pau Gasol is my favourite big man of all time. I'm just saying with Kobe you need less help to win, seeing as Pau is not exactly in the argument for GOAT PF (beautifully skilled game in his prime though. I'll always love Pau).

Robinson is not likely to win you a championship as first option. He was a better defender, but Kobe was just simply a better two way player and could do way more than Robinson could on offense. Two FMVPs to D-Robs zero.

[rmt]

Pau Gasol is my favourite big man of all time. I'm just saying with Kobe you need less help to win, seeing as Pau is not exactly in the argument for GOAT PF (beautifully skilled game in his prime though. I'll always love Pau).

Robinson is not likely to win you a championship as first option. He was a better defender, but Kobe was just simply a better two way player and could do way more than Robinson could on offense. Two FMVPs to D-Robs zero.

Don't know what to say if you truly think that Kobe is a better defensive player than DRob.

DRob / Kobe

Defensive Win Shares 80.1 (10th best ever) / 49.6 (46th)
Defensive Rating 95.6 (4th) / didn't even make the list
Block Pct 5.7 (9th) /
Blks Per Game 3.0 (5th) /
Blocks 2954 (6th) /

Don't be fooled by those undeserving all-defensive teams gifted to Kobe.

[Bigsmoke]

I don't even like Kobe but he is the answer

[Bigsmoke]

Don't know what to say if you truly think that Kobe is a better defensive player than DRob.

DRob / Kobe

Defensive Win Shares 80.1 (10th best ever) / 49.6 (46th)
Defensive Rating 95.6 (4th) / didn't even make the list
Block Pct 5.7 (9th) /
Blks Per Game 3.0 (5th) /
Blocks 2954 (6th) /

Don't be fooled by those undeserving all-defensive teams gifted to Kobe.

Robinson isn't someone to ride with in the playoffs :confusedshrug:

[rmt]

Robinson isn't someone to ride with in the playoffs :confusedshrug:

I have no problem with 16x (or anyone) picking Kobe to start a franchise, but to say he's a better two-way player (meaning a better defensive player) than DRob, that I can't keep quiet about.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Don't know what to say if you truly think that Kobe is a better defensive player than DRob.

DRob / Kobe

Defensive Win Shares 80.1 (10th best ever) / 49.6 (46th)
Defensive Rating 95.6 (4th) / didn't even make the list
Block Pct 5.7 (9th) /
Blks Per Game 3.0 (5th) /
Blocks 2954 (6th) /

Don't be fooled by those undeserving all-defensive teams gifted to Kobe.


how exactly were they gifted :lol

Media bias?

[rmt]

how exactly were they gifted :lol

Media bias?

C'mon, you know better than that - they are chosen by the head coaches and in the last few years, it's been purely on reputation.

Do you really in your heart of hearts believe that he deserved 2nd team all-defensive in 12? Or that Kobe deserved 1st team all-defensive 09, 10, 11 over defensive specialists like Tony Allen, Battier, etc.

[16X]

Don't know what to say if you truly think that Kobe is a better defensive player than DRob.

DRob / Kobe

Defensive Win Shares 80.1 (10th best ever) / 49.6 (46th)
Defensive Rating 95.6 (4th) / didn't even make the list
Block Pct 5.7 (9th) /
Blks Per Game 3.0 (5th) /
Blocks 2954 (6th) /

Don't be fooled by those undeserving all-defensive teams gifted to Kobe.
I said in my post that Robinson was a better defender. Kobe was the better two way player, not meaning that he was better at everything, but meaning that he was by a decent margin the better offensive first option and facilitator and still very good on defense (so many First teams. Were they all undeserved? I guess they should let ISH forum members vote rather than coaches :confusedshrug: ).

[fpliii]

Robinson.

No slight to my man Kobe, he'd be my answer over almost any non-big (and possibly all of them). Can't teach size.

[AnaheimLakers24]

C'mon, you know better than that - they are chosen by the head coaches and in the last few years, it's been purely on reputation.

Do you really in your heart of hearts believe that he deserved 2nd team all-defensive in 12? Or that Kobe deserved 1st team all-defensive 09, 10, 11 over defensive specialists like Tony Allen, Battier, etc.
cause you say so huh

[TheMarkMadsen]

C'mon, you know better than that - they are chosen by the head coaches and in the last few years, it's been purely on reputation.

Do you really in your heart of hearts believe that he deserved 2nd team all-defensive in 12? Or that Kobe deserved 1st team all-defensive 09, 10, 11 over defensive specialists like Tony Allen, Battier, etc.


100% yes

Tony Allen in 09 & 10 never averaged more than 19 minutes per game.

are you going to tell me his 16-19 minutes per game of defense is worth more than Kobe's 37-39 mpg? Give me a break

If Kobe was playing 17 minutes per game and only had to focus on defense he'd considered an even better defender, the fact that he was logging nearly 40mpg back then and NBA coaches (the guys planning the their teams offensive approach every night) still saw his defense as being top notch worthy of 1st team ALL NBA speaks volumes..

Shane Battier.. in those years was logging starter minutes, so lets compare..

Battier 09: 0.8 steals per game/.9 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 2.9

Kobe 09: 1.5 steals per game/ .5 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.0


Battier 10: .8 steals per game/ 1.1 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 2.1

Kobe 10: 1.5 steals per game/ .3 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.0


Coaches got it right

[rmt]

100% yes

Tony Allen in 09 & 10 never averaged more than 19 minutes per game.

are you going to tell me his 16-19 minutes per game of defense is worth more than Kobe's 37-39 mpg? Give me a break

If Kobe was playing 17 minutes per game and only had to focus on defense he'd considered an even better defender, the fact that he was logging nearly 40mpg back then and NBA coaches (the guys planning the their teams offensive approach every night) still saw his defense as being top notch worthy of 1st team ALL NBA speaks volumes..

Shane Battier.. in those years was logging starter minutes, so lets compare..

Battier 09: 0.8 steals per game/.9 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 2.9

Kobe 09: 1.5 steals per game/ .5 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.0


Battier 10: .8 steals per game/ 1.1 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 2.1

Kobe 10: 1.5 steals per game/ .3 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.0


Coaches got it right

So where's all his stats backing up his 1st team all-defensive in 11 and 2nd team in 12?

[fpliii]

100% yes

Tony Allen in 09 & 10 never averaged more than 19 minutes per game.

are you going to tell me his 16-19 minutes per game of defense is worth more than Kobe's 37-39 mpg? Give me a break

If Kobe was playing 17 minutes per game and only had to focus on defense he'd considered an even better defender, the fact that he was logging nearly 40mpg back then and NBA coaches (the guys planning the their teams offensive approach every night) still saw his defense as being top notch worthy of 1st team ALL NBA speaks volumes..

Shane Battier.. in those years was logging starter minutes, so lets compare..

Battier 09: 0.8 steals per game/.9 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 2.9

Kobe 09: 1.5 steals per game/ .5 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.0


Battier 10: .8 steals per game/ 1.1 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 2.1

Kobe 10: 1.5 steals per game/ .3 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.0


Coaches got it right

Kobe in 09 put in admirable effort on that end, and I don't mind the selection. I haven't missed a Lakers game in years, and can definitely say Kobe was not an all-defensive player thereafter. I also have a big problem with the selections in 06 and 07 (03 and 04 were questionable, but he was still above-average defensively in those seasons).

The coaches definitely did not get it right in 06, 07, 10, 11, 12. No question my man.

[TheMarkMadsen]

So where's all his stats backing up his 1st team all-defensive in 11 and 2nd team in 12?


Once again, Tony Allen playing 20 mpg isn't going to get the nod over Kobe playing 35+. Great defense for 20 minutes isn't as valuable as very good defense
for 35+


Kobe's defense slipped in 2012 due to age and the lock out, Allen became a starter and makes e first team over Kobe while Kobe makes second :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe in 09 put in admirable effort on that end, and I don't mind the selection. I haven't missed a Lakers game in years, and can definitely say Kobe was not an all-defensive player thereafter. I also have a big problem with the selections in 06 and 07 (03 and 04 were questionable, but he was still above-average defensively in those seasons).

The coaches definitely did not get it right in 06, 07, 10, 11, 12. No question my man.

then tell my why the coaches are voting for him?

While we watch the games these coaches game plan for them, study tape, and know more about opposing players, tendencies and weakness's than we could ever pretend too know.

[gts]

I'll take 18 years plus with Kobe over 11 with Robinson.

[gts]

then tell my why the coaches are voting for him?

While we watch the games these coaches game plan for them, study tape, and know more about opposing players, tendencies and weakness's than we could ever pretend too know.

this is true but they don't post on ISH and as you know ISH knows infinitely more about the NBA than a professional coach does

[rmt]

Oh, the beauty of stats:

Rondo 09: 1.9 steals per game/.1 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 5.1

Kobe 09: 1.5 steals per game / .5 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.0

Rondo 10: 2.3 steals per game/ .1 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.7

Kobe 10: 1.5 steals per game / .3 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.0

Rondo 11: 2.3 steals per game/ .2 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.8

Kobe 11: 1.2 steals per game / .1 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: not even in the top 20

Coaches DID NOT get it right. Mark, do you still maintain that Kobe deserved 1st team all-defensive in 09, 10 and 11? And I haven't even looked up Wade's or Paul's stats yet.

[fpliii]

then tell my why the coaches are voting for him?

While we watch the games these coaches game plan for them, study tape, and know more about opposing players, tendencies and weakness's than we could ever pretend too know.

Reputation, partially, and some politics. It's not as egregious as it could be, because Kobe's not the only one getting the same benefit of the doubt (MJ for one, later on in his career), but it's still pretty bad.

I think prior to 09, Kobe on any given night could be the best man defender in the league when he wanted to be. That's why he got the most votes from coaches in 07-08. The thing is, consistency and effort has to play a part in it.

From 04-05 through 06-07, Kobe just didn't play much defense. He couldn't expend effort on that end, because he didn't have a secondary scorer. I don't know how we can reward him for being an all-league defender, when guys were putting in effort every night, and produced results.

I have zero problem with Kobe winning in 99, 00, 01, 02, 03, 04, 08, 09. None at all.

I do agree that it's hard to give Tony Allen the nod in limited minutes. If you're not on the floor at least half of the time, it's a tough sell.

EDIT: On second thought, Kobe still gambled a bit much in the lockout season. Take that off the list.

[gts]

Oh, the beauty of stats:

Rondo 09: 1.9 steals per game/.1 blocks per game.[/B] Defensive Win Share: 5.1[/B]

Kobe 09: 1.5 steals per game / .5 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.0

Rondo 10: 2.3 steals per game/ .1 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.7[/B]

Kobe 10: 1.5 steals per game / .3 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.0

Rondo 11: 2.3 steals per game/ .2 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.8[/B]

Kobe 11: 1.2 steals per game / .1 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: not even in the top 20

Coaches DID NOT get it right. Do you still maintain that Kobe deserved 1st team all-defensive in 09, 10 and 11? And I haven't even looked up Wade's stats yet.

As soon as you started using just stats as your argument about who's a better defender you lost.. defensive stats are one of the all time greats at being misleading

[navy]

How did Kobe deserve first team defensive selections over prime Dwayne Wade?

[rmt]

As soon as you started using just stats as your argument about who's a better defender you lost.. defensive stats are one of the all time greats at being misleading

I'm not the one who started using stats.



100% yes

Tony Allen in 09 & 10 never averaged more than 19 minutes per game.

are you going to tell me his 16-19 minutes per game of defense is worth more than Kobe's 37-39 mpg? Give me a break

If Kobe was playing 17 minutes per game and only had to focus on defense he'd considered an even better defender, the fact that he was logging nearly 40mpg back then and NBA coaches (the guys planning the their teams offensive approach every night) still saw his defense as being top notch worthy of 1st team ALL NBA speaks volumes..

Shane Battier.. in those years was logging starter minutes, so lets compare..

Battier 09: 0.8 steals per game/.9 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 2.9

Kobe 09: 1.5 steals per game/ .5 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.0


Battier 10: .8 steals per game/ 1.1 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 2.1

Kobe 10: 1.5 steals per game/ .3 blocks per game. Defensive Win Share: 4.0


Coaches got it right

If MarkMadsen uses the stats vs Battier and Allen, then he should accept the stats with Rondo.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I'm not the one who started using stats.




If MarkMadsen uses the stats vs Battier and Allen, then he should accept the stats with Rondo.


YOU'RE the one who asked if Kobe deserved it specifically over Battier & Tony Allen

[JohnFreeman]

Height > anything.

[rmt]

YOU'RE the one who asked if Kobe deserved it specifically over Battier & Tony Allen

I fully admit that I was wrong to use Battier and Allen in those years - shoulda used Rondo (and too lazy to look it up - Wade and Paul?). But the gist of the argument is still did Kobe deserve 1st all-defensive honors in those years - regardless of my stupidity.

[Good Ol JR]

anybody picking David Robinson should have a mud-hole stomped through them dry

[plowking]

I would say Robinson, but the dude was just a pssy when it came down to it. Hes the best example of a great player, playing small when it mattered.

I'd take Kobe.

[rmt]

anybody picking David Robinson should have a mud-hole stomped through them dry

I guess 30 out of 53 of us should have a mud-hole stomped through us dry. What exactly does that mean?

That's a rough count - don't hold me to it if someone double-voted.

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe and his non stop will to win titles are far better than Drob and his stats:rockon:

[SamuraiSWISH]

I choose Kobe, for the superior longevity, toughness, heart and playoff performance. The Admiral was prone to shrink from the moment in the playoffs. At heart, he was kind of a softie.

But D-Rob is definitely easier to build a winning franchise around for immediate contention. Being a big man and all. Especially if you transplanted him to today's NBA game. There is ultra select few perimeter superstars I'd take over any big man.

I'd take these guys definitely over ANY big man:

MJ
LeBron
Bird

And then these guys in SELECT cases over big men:

Kobe
Magic
Wade

Now, onto this nonsense from a newbie:


Robinson is a more primitive and slightly less athletic version of Dwight
No, D-Rob was just as athletic as Dwight, but in a much larger, longer, taller, stronger body. Clearly you never saw prime David Robinson. Maybe you saw the guy crippled by injuries after 1999.


he played In the era before defenses even understood what fronting the post was so not sure how well he would do in todays era
Wait, what? Did you seriously just suggest fronting in the post didn't exist until post 2003 after Robinson retired?

How dumb can you be?

:oldlol:

[Heavincent]

Wait, what? Did you seriously just suggest fronting in the post didn't exist until post 2003 after Duncan retired?

How dumb can you be?

:oldlol:

That dude acting like Robinson played in the ****ing stone age :oldlol:

[comerb]

D-Rob no hesitation.

[MJistheGOAT]

Give me the big man with elite D, as other poster say very few perimeter players are better than elite bigs to start a franchise.

Kobe is not one of them.

[rmt]

I choose Kobe, for the superior longevity, toughness, heart and playoff performance. The Admiral was prone to shrink from the moment in the playoffs. At heart, he was kind of a softie.

But D-Rob is definitely easier to build a winning franchise around for immediate contention. Being a big man and all. Especially if you transplanted him to today's NBA game. There is ultra select few perimeter superstars I'd take over any big man.

I'd take these guys definitely over ANY big man:

MJ
LeBron
Bird

And then these guys in SELECT cases over big men:

Kobe
Magic
Wade

Now, onto this nonsense from a newbie:


No, D-Rob was just as athletic as Dwight, but in a much larger, longer, taller, stronger body. Clearly you never saw prime David Robinson. Maybe you saw the guy crippled by injuries after 1999.


Wait, what? Did you seriously just suggest fronting in the post didn't exist until post 2003 after Robinson retired?

How dumb can you be?

:oldlol:

I'd take what 20? years of KAJ before Lebron and Bird.

[King Jane]

I choose Kobe, for the superior longevity, toughness, heart and playoff performance. The Admiral was prone to shrink from the moment in the playoffs. At heart, he was kind of a softie.

But D-Rob is definitely easier to build a winning franchise around for immediate contention. Being a big man and all. Especially if you transplanted him to today's NBA game. There is ultra select few perimeter superstars I'd take over any big man.

I'd take these guys definitely over ANY big man:

MJ
LeBron
Bird

And then these guys in SELECT cases over big men:

Kobe
Magic
Wade

Now, onto this nonsense from a newbie:


No, D-Rob was just as athletic as Dwight, but in a much larger, longer, taller, stronger body. Clearly you never saw prime David Robinson. Maybe you saw the guy crippled by injuries after 1999.


Wait, what? Did you seriously just suggest fronting in the post didn't exist until post 2003 after Robinson retired?

How dumb can you be?

:oldlol:
Oh look a Jordan Stan offended by someone bringing up modern athleticism knowledge an training :rolleyes:

This is what 14 year old players can do today http://youtu.be/If7Hrcf04Dw

That kid alone is better than anyone who played in the 80s and 90s. Welcome to the present day, try and keep up.

[Milbuck]

Oh look a Jordan Stan offended by someone bringing up modern athleticism knowledge an training :rolleyes:

This is what 14 year old players can do today http://youtu.be/If7Hrcf04Dw

That kid alone is better than anyone who played in the 80s and 90s. Welcome to the present day, try and keep up.

http://cdn.niketalk.com/8/83/83061ada_kobe-hilariously-confused-reaction-gif.gif