where does Kevin Garnett rank in the best players of all time/PF list?

[LeBron 06]

Title

[fpliii]

I'll get flamed for this, but I have him as 1a/1b with Duncan, because of his versatility on defense. If I need scoring though, I'd take Timmy's D (which isn't far off), since he's one of the few bigs through whom you can run your offense in the postseason on championship contending rosters. Either way, KG's a top 2 PF.

Dirk is number 3 IMO with Pettit not far off (I have Dirk slightly ahead because of his range, but they can be flipped). Barkley probably finishes out my top 5, in no small part thanks to the research done by PHILA, which reveals tremendous post/finishing ability.

Not a big Karl Malone fan, even though I started watching in the early 90s and saw a lot of his best. I credit Stockton and Sloan a lot more than most though, so there is that.

[coolhandsteve]

All time: Top 25, maybe 20

Power Forwards: 4th behind Barkley, Duncan & Malone

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Best PF ever. Timmy played center mostly even Pop admitted it. Top 15 ever.

[Det the Threat]

1. duncan
2. dirk
3. garnett

[fpliii]

Best PF ever. Timmy played center mostly even Pop admitted it. Top 15 ever.
Dude, serious question, why don't you like my man Anthony Davis? We seem to agree about a lot of other shit, let's work this out.

:cheers:

[ABfor3]

Right behind Duncan, and Malone. I have him fighting for that 3rd spot with Dirk depending on how they both finish their careers. All time? I'll say top 20, I initially was gonna put him in top 25 but that MVP season got him through.

[QuebecBaller]

#1 = Duncan
#2a = Sir Charles
#2b = Malone
#2c = Garnett

[gyu]

Right behind Duncan, and Malone. I have him fighting for that 3rd spot with Dirk depending on how they both finish their careers. All time? I'll say top 20, I initially was gonna put him in top 25 but that MVP season got him through.
Depending on how both finish their careers? KG looks done already while Dirk dropped 40 on Anthony Davis the other night :roll:

[Det the Threat]

Depending on how both finish their careers? KG looks done already while Dirk dropped 40 on Anthony Davis the other night :roll:

:rockon:

[Black and White]

Best PF ever. Timmy played center mostly even Pop admitted it. Top 15 ever.

What is your top 15?

[plowking]

Hes not better than Barkley, Malone, Duncan or Dirk.

[Odinn]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Karl Malone or Dirk Nowitzki
4. Dirk Nowitzki or Karl Malone
5. Kevin Garnett

His offensive skills and versatility was great but he didn't have enough scoring volume. It is hard to say he was a 'dominant' offensive weapon on the court.

[Audio One]

Hes not better than Barkley, Malone, Duncan or Dirk.

I disagree w/ Barkley, although that's certainly debatable. What's NOT debatable is Nowitzki being ahead of any of the 4's listed ITT. :no:

[Brook(lyn)Lopez]

It's a shame he had to waste his prime playing for the T-Wolves who squandered his abilities and he had to carry a team of scrubs to make the post season if even that all the while freezing his ass off in freakin' Mini-soda.
Top 2 PF of all time if he got to play for an organization like Spurs for example.

[the mesiah]

#4 behind timmeh, mailman,barkley,top 20 all time..

[The JKidd Kid]

#1 Duncan is a Center and Dirk and Malone are nowhere near Garnett defensively.

[Milbuck]

When it's all said and done, somewhere between Ilyasova and John Henson

[T_L_P]

Even if we're calling Duncan a center from 2005 onward, he established himself as the GOAT PF after 6 years :roll:

I have Garnett second on the PF list, and he's around the top 15-17

[Round Mound]

[B]Top 10.

From the Players I

[mr.big35]

Top 10 PF all time. I like his intensity and how is a tough guy

[Bernie Nips]

Second best PF, about ~15 all time.

[EricGordon23]

I haven't watched a lot of basketball since before 2003. So from the guys I have seen in my time I have Dirk and duncan ahead of him

[Cold soul]

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Dirk

All time? Top 15-20.

[Cone]

4th after tim dirk barkley

top 25 all time

[Round Mound]

Top 10 PF all time. I like his intensity and how is a tough guy

Intensity Yes. But Tough? :no: :facepalm Tough Guys Never Pick On Smaller and Those Who Know They Can Bully.

[$LakerGold]

I disagree w/ Barkley, although that's certainly debatable. What's NOT debatable is Nowitzki being ahead of any of the 4's listed ITT. :no:

Barkley Top 5.

I've always said that KG was far better than Timmy D, but Duncan's longevity seals the deal, TOP 1 IMO. Peak-wise? I'd still take KG, though, no one was just ever like him, athleticism-wise.

1. Tim Duncan
2. KG
3. Dirk
4. Malone
5. Charles

I'd like to think that KG still has it if he just digs in & not worry about his injury, but it'll never happen. Such a rare breed of individuals, the peak 2000's players, really.

I ranked Dirk at #3 over them 2 just because of his 1 ring, & the level of skillset he has. With that skillset, who knew he would have lasted this long? & get a win over the Heat. Just WOW. So, I'd like to think that Dirk is top 3.

Dirk defeated his Jordan, Malone didn't.

[Castor Troy]

Barkley Top 5.

I've always said that KG was far better than Timmy D, but Duncan's longevity seals the deal, TOP 1 IMO. Peak-wise? I'd still take KG, though, no one was just ever like him, athleticism-wise.

1. Tim Duncan
2. KG
3. Dirk
4. Malone
5. Charles

I'd like to think that KG still has it if he just digs in & not worry about his injury, but it'll never happen. Such a rare breed of individuals, the peak 2000's players, really.

I ranked Dirk at #3 over them 2 just because of his 1 ring, & the level of skillset he has. With that skillset, who knew he would have lasted this long? & get a win over the Heat. Just WOW. So, I'd like to think that Dirk is top 3.

Dirk defeated his Jordan, Malone didn't.

Reason why Dirk is better than Malone for me too. But I loved the Mailman, so for sentiments purposes:

1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Malone
4. Dirk

[LAZERUSS]

I'll get flamed for this, but I have him as 1a/1b with Duncan, because of his versatility on defense. If I need scoring though, I'd take Timmy's D (which isn't far off), since he's one of the few bigs through whom you can run your offense in the postseason on championship contending rosters. Either way, KG's a top 2 PF.

Dirk is number 3 IMO with Pettit not far off (I have Dirk slightly ahead because of his range, but they can be flipped). Barkley probably finishes out my top 5, in no small part thanks to the research done by PHILA, which reveals tremendous post/finishing ability.

Not a big Karl Malone fan, even though I started watching in the early 90s and saw a lot of his best. I credit Stockton and Sloan a lot more than most though, so there is that.

Agree with 99%.

IMHO, Duncan is #1, and after that, probably KG, but I believe you could throw a blanket over KG, Pettit, Dirk, Barkley, and K Malone. In terms of most versatility, and defense, KG has a case for even #1.

BTW, McHale and even Lucas should get some mention in these discussions...

[K Xerxes]

I'll get flamed for this, but I have him as 1a/1b with Duncan, because of his versatility on defense. If I need scoring though, I'd take Timmy's D (which isn't far off), since he's one of the few bigs through whom you can run your offense in the postseason on championship contending rosters. Either way, KG's a top 2 PF.

Dirk is number 3 IMO with Pettit not far off (I have Dirk slightly ahead because of his range, but they can be flipped). Barkley probably finishes out my top 5, in no small part thanks to the research done by PHILA, which reveals tremendous post/finishing ability.

Not a big Karl Malone fan, even though I started watching in the early 90s and saw a lot of his best. I credit Stockton and Sloan a lot more than most though, so there is that.

Not sure about the 1a/1b thing, but this is an extremely reasonable opinion. Also not sure about Dirk above Barkley, but the next group of PFs (and I'll include K Malone in this tbh) outside Duncan and KG are very close. In any case, I have Duncan and KG ahead of the pack if we purely consider impact on a basketball court.

I don't know how else to put it: peak KG was seriously ****ing good and I'd seriously consider taking him above Duncan for his defense.

[Round Mound]

I Take Prime and Healthy Sir Charles Over Any Other PF By Miles!

[longhornfan1234]

Top 3.

1. Duncan
2. Barkley
3. KG
4. Malone
5. Dirk

Top 20 player


1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. LeBron
9. Kobe
10. Duncan
11. Hakeem
12. Moses
13. West
14. Oscar
15. Erving
16. Baylor
17. Barkley
18. Admiral
19. Thomas
20. KG

[Audio One]

Barkley Top 5.

I've always said that KG was far better than Timmy D, but Duncan's longevity seals the deal, TOP 1 IMO. Peak-wise? I'd still take KG, though, no one was just ever like him, athleticism-wise.

1. Tim Duncan
2. KG
3. Dirk
4. Malone
5. Charles

I'd like to think that KG still has it if he just digs in & not worry about his injury, but it'll never happen. Such a rare breed of individuals, the peak 2000's players, really.

I ranked Dirk at #3 over them 2 just because of his 1 ring, & the level of skillset he has. With that skillset, who knew he would have lasted this long? & get a win over the Heat. Just WOW. So, I'd like to think that Dirk is top 3.

Dirk defeated his Jordan, Malone didn't.

Chauncey Billups was the Finals MVP of a no-HOF cast, that took out the Jordan AND CHAMBERLAIN of his era :cheers:

Therefore, Billups > Stockton

[oarabbus]

I Take Prime and Healthy Sir Charles Over Any Other PF By Miles!


We know, Round Mound. We know.

[$LakerGold]

Chauncey Billups was the Finals MVP of a no-HOF cast, that took out the Jordan AND CHAMBERLAIN of his era :cheers:

Therefore, Billups > Stockton
Sarcasm?

[Harison]

1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Malone
4. Barkley
5. Pettit/Dirk

Top15.

[kshutts1]

I'll get flamed for this, but I have him as 1a/1b with Duncan, because of his versatility on defense. If I need scoring though, I'd take Timmy's D (which isn't far off), since he's one of the few bigs through whom you can run your offense in the postseason on championship contending rosters. Either way, KG's a top 2 PF.
Pretty funny to me that nearly everyone points to this post as how they feel, yet you thought you'd get flamed.

Anyway, I agree with the Duncan/KG argument. I've long held the belief that Duncan is only considered "better" because of situation; Garnett is the superior player, while Duncan's had the superior career.

As for the PFs after those two, I'm not sure about the order, but...
Barkley is above Malone.
I don't understand the Dirk love, relative to other all-time greats anyway. Malone and Dirk are basically tied for me, and only because Dirk won a title as "the man".
Pettit, Lucas, McHale, and other older, great players I have no clue how to rank them.

Edit: Oh, and as for all time... I don't do a numerical ranking, but rather tiers, and both KG and Duncan are in the second tier (basically 8-13 range).

[westsideozzie]

Pretty funny to me that nearly everyone points to this post as how they feel, yet you thought you'd get flamed.

Anyway, I agree with the Duncan/KG argument. I've long held the belief that Duncan is only considered "better" because of situation; Garnett is the superior player, while Duncan's had the superior career.

As for the PFs after those two, I'm not sure about the order, but...
Barkley is above Malone.
I don't understand the Dirk love, relative to other all-time greats anyway. Malone and Dirk are basically tied for me, and only because Dirk won a title as "the man".
Pettit, Lucas, McHale, and other older, great players I have no clue how to rank them.

Edit: Oh, and as for all time... I don't do a numerical ranking, but rather tiers, and both KG and Duncan are in the second tier (basically 8-13 range).

Garnett's lack of an A plus post game and inability to draw fouls cannot project him past Duncan. Plus someone of his athletic ability should have been a better shot blocker.

[JohnFreeman]

I would put McHale above him

[Purch]

I'm gonna be lazy and just leave it like this

1) Duncan



2a) Barkley
2b) Dirk
2c) Garnett
2d) Malone

[plowking]

Top 3.

1. Duncan
2. Barkley
3. KG
4. Malone
5. Dirk

Top 20 player


1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. LeBron
9. Kobe
10. Duncan
11. Hakeem
12. Moses
13. West
14. Oscar
15. Erving
16. Baylor
17. Barkley
18. Admiral
19. Thomas
20. KG

How is Garnett top 20 or top 15 according to most people, but players like Dirk and Wade aren't?

[Purch]

Betwen all the basketball forums Im a member of, the only consensus that is consistently reached is that Duncan is the clear number 1. People have vastly different opinions and perceptions of Barkley, Garnett, Dirk and Malone. I've seen legitimate arguments for each of them

[kshutts1]

Garnett's lack of an A plus post game and inability to draw fouls cannot project him past Duncan. Plus someone of his athletic ability should have been a better shot blocker.
In his prime years, KG was shooting the ball 18-19 times a game at 50%, and getting to the line 6 times a game, where he shot maybe 77%?
In contrast, Duncan's "A plus post game" got him roughly.... wait for it... 17-18 shots a game at 51%, and put him to the line 7-8 times a game at 65-70%. Hmm.

So maybe Duncan's post game allowed him to better pass out of double teams, thus helping his teammates hit open shots?
KG's lead in assists, 5 to 3, says otherwise.

Shot blocking for KG may be a touch low.. but when you're arguably the greatest PnR defensive big man ever... am I really going to nitpick getting 1.5 blocks instead of 2 or 2.5? No, no I won't.

[JohnFreeman]

How is Garnett top 20 or top 15 according to most people, but players like Dirk and Wade aren't?

Yeah doesn't make sense.

[kshutts1]

How is Garnett top 20 or top 15 according to most people, but players like Dirk and Wade aren't?
My quick answer?
Wade's prime, where he was the devastating player that we all love, was relatively short... maybe 6 years?
Dirk was a poor defender until more recently, a phenomenal offensive player, but a subpar defensive player.

...and not that my opinion counts for much, but I do have Wade and Dirk in my third tier, which is essentially 14-20.

[Purch]

In his prime years, KG was shooting the ball 18-19 times a game at 50%, and getting to the line 6 times a game, where he shot maybe 77%?
In contrast, Duncan's "A plus post game" got him roughly.... wait for it... 17-18 shots a game at 51%, and put him to the line 7-8 times a game at 65-70%. Hmm.

So maybe Duncan's post game allowed him to better pass out of double teams, thus helping his teammates hit open shots?
KG's lead in assists, 5 to 3, says otherwise.

Shot blocking for KG may be a touch low.. but when you're arguably the greatest PnR defensive big man ever... am I really going to nitpick getting 1.5 blocks instead of 2 or 2.5? No, no I won't.
Passing the ball out of the post, to an open teammate doesn't automaticlly equal an assist. In fact for the spurs most of the time it doesn't. Usally it's one pass out of the post, and an additional ball rotation to the open man, once the defender attempts to close out.

[kshutts1]

Passing the ball out of the post, to an open teammate doesn't automaticlly equal an assist. In fact for the spurs most of the time it doesn't. Usally it's one pass out of the post, and an additional ball rotation to the open man, once the defender attempts to close out.
I know, and it's unfortunate that we can't/don't track "hockey assists". I just went with available quantifiable data.

Edit: Watching the game is obviously the best, but their primes were a while ago, and watching KG pass the ball (and Duncan) was incredible.

[Purch]

I know, and it's unfortunate that we can't/don't track "hockey assists". I just went with available quantifiable data.

Edit: Watching the game is obviously the best, but their primes were a while ago, and watching KG pass the ball (and Duncan) was incredible.
O trust me I know.

I have Duncan's

32/20/7/6/3 game 1 against the nets and his 34/24/6/6 game 3 against the Mavs on my channel.

And for Garnett I have his

33/7/2 game 5 vs the Pistons
30/19/4 game 5 vs Lakers
33/14/4/4/2 game 3 vs Lakers
30/15/5/5/3 game 3 vs Sacramento

For Garnett more so than Duncan there was a complete lack of videos of his great playoff games.

Finding the Garnett playoff games was the thing I was most proud of even above the playoff games I uploaded of Nash, and the 7 playoff games I uploaded of kidd

[SexSymbol]

1. Duncan
2. Bob Pettit
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Elvin Hayes
5. Dennis Rodman
6. Keving Garnett
7. Kevin McHale
8. Charles Barkley
9. Karl Malone
10. David Debusschere

[Jailblazers7]

I think he was better than Malone because of his impact defensively. I think Malone's longevity gets him rated higher than he normally would if you were ranking peaks, which is kind of how I do my all-time lists.

[westsideozzie]

In his prime years, KG was shooting the ball 18-19 times a game at 50%, and getting to the line 6 times a game, where he shot maybe 77%?
In contrast, Duncan's "A plus post game" got him roughly.... wait for it... 17-18 shots a game at 51%, and put him to the line 7-8 times a game at 65-70%. Hmm.

So maybe Duncan's post game allowed him to better pass out of double teams, thus helping his teammates hit open shots?
KG's lead in assists, 5 to 3, says otherwise.

Shot blocking for KG may be a touch low.. but when you're arguably the greatest PnR defensive big man ever... am I really going to nitpick getting 1.5 blocks instead of 2 or 2.5? No, no I won't.


I think that Garnett just did not weigh enough in the post to get other big men in foul trouble. Six free throws a game for someone with his skill set is a little underwhelming. I wish Garnett was more assertive offensively, but I dont think he was ever on the level Duncan was. But they were are both GREAT players.

[Jlamb47]

Duncan
Garnett
Barkley
Malone
Dirk

[Sakkreth]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Karl Malone or Dirk Nowitzki
4. Dirk Nowitzki or Karl Malone
5. Kevin Garnett

His offensive skills and versatility was great but he didn't have enough scoring volume. It is hard to say he was a 'dominant' offensive weapon on the court.

This is the right list for me.

[longhornfan1234]

How is Garnett top 20 or top 15 according to most people, but players like Dirk and Wade aren't?


KG's peak is superior and he's a better two player than both. Wade and Dirk are somewhere between 20-25.

[AbeVigodaLive]

#3 - #6 for all-time NBA PFs can be a pretty solid discussion.

There are definitely enough merits with any of these guys, depending on what a poster's personal bias are:

- Barkley
- Garnett
- Nowitzki
- Pettit



[Note: I think Pettit is the guy usually tossed aside first because so many of us are unfamiliar with him... AND because most of his best work was done pre-modern era (1960).]

[pauk]

He is there in the vicinity of Karl Malone, Charles Barkley & Dirk Nowitzki somewhere.... all behind Tim Duncan and all can be argued for who should be the 1st one ordered behind him although Karl Malone usually wins that battle...

[Purch]

#3 - #6 for all-time NBA PFs can be a pretty solid discussion.

There are definitely enough merits with any of these guys, depending on what a poster's personal bias are:

- Barkley
- Garnett
- Nowitzki
- Pettit



[Note: I think Pettit is the guy usually tossed aside first because so many of us are unfamiliar with him... AND because most of his best work was done pre-modern era (1960).]
You hold malone as the definite #2 man?

[AbeVigodaLive]

You hold malone as the definite #2 man?


I think I can make a more convincing case for him than I can for the others. But, he has his foibles too. The drop in numbers in the playoffs is staring at us. And, there are some big moments he didn't come through in the Finals.

Please don't make me overthink this and make it even more complicated by stretching it to #2 - #6.

[DMAVS41]

Really tough.

Duncan is for sure the best. After that, Pettit, KG, Malone, Barkley, and Dirk could honestly be ordered anyway.

I disagree with some posters putting McHale in that core group. I don't think he should be in that group above.

I go something like;

Duncan
Pettit
Dirk
KG
Barkley
Malone

But it changes. I used to have Karl Malone higher the way people rank here, but over time I've changed a bit on that.

[JamiesChrist]

Duncan
Garnett
Barkley
Love
Dirk

[ArbitraryWater]

All Time about Top 20, and among PF's 5th or 4th deciding if you have Timmy as C or not... just wayyy to little post-season games&dominance...

[Solefade]

is he even better than dirk though? yeah he's the super defensive guy but i doubt he would be able to carry an offensive load like dirk.

All-time top 25

top 5 pf of all time

[Artillery]

In his prime years, KG was shooting the ball 18-19 times a game at 50%, and getting to the line 6 times a game, where he shot maybe 77%?
In contrast, Duncan's "A plus post game" got him roughly.... wait for it... 17-18 shots a game at 51%, and put him to the line 7-8 times a game at 65-70%. Hmm.

So maybe Duncan's post game allowed him to better pass out of double teams, thus helping his teammates hit open shots?
KG's lead in assists, 5 to 3, says otherwise.

Shot blocking for KG may be a touch low.. but when you're arguably the greatest PnR defensive big man ever... am I really going to nitpick getting 1.5 blocks instead of 2 or 2.5? No, no I won't.

Duncan's the better scorer, rebounder, and shot-blocker/post anchor. KG's the better passer and PnR defender. Those two qualities alone aren't enough to put KG above TD....especially when you factor in the overall decline in his stats from reg season to post-season.

PER Reg Season
Duncan: 24.6
Garnett: 23.0

PER Playoffs

Duncan: 24.9
Garnett: 21.3

Duncan's overall PER actually goes up from the regular season to the playoffs. KG's drops.

TS% Reg Season
Duncan: .551
Garnett: .547

TS% Playoffs
Duncan: .547
Garnett: .524

Duncan's TS% sees a small dip from season to playoffs while KG's suffers a big drop

WS/48 Reg Season
Duncan: .212
Garnett: .186

WS/48 Playoffs
Duncan: .195
Garnett: .150

Same thing. Small dip for Duncan, Big drop for Kg.

[Totspurs]

Top 15-20 all-time, in the fight for second best PF ever. Duncan is obviously first.

But I have peak Garnett slightly over peak Duncan, that '04 season was truly impressive.

[westsideozzie]

Has KG ever took it to Shaq? Duncan wins end of story.

[Eye Test]

all time top 20-25 at worst, dudes been severely underrated this past year cause of his decline

[AbeVigodaLive]

all time top 20-25 at worst, dudes been severely underrated this past year cause of his decline


He'll be more underrated in another 10 - 15 years.

I think Nowitzki gets more love by the next generation of fans... and Garnett gets less than he does now.

- It's harder to argue "defense" than it is "lead guy on championship team"
- Garnett's offensive exploits are already marginalized
- Cursory looks at Dallas vs. Minnesota rosters will lead some to think the talent bases were closer than they really were.
- Will anybody remember or care about the Joe Smith fiasco?
- How much more time does Nowitzki have? Another 2 years? 3 years? Garnett looks done. Mentally and physically.

[BoutPractice]

I've only watched relatively famous full games of Mailman and Barkley (I watched Mailman in the early 2000s but he was past his prime by then), so it's difficult for me to judge. But it seemed to me that Barkley had a more meaningful impact on the game than Malone. McHale seems quite underrated looking at pure level of play but is tough to rank given his role, and we only have Pettit's accomplishments, not much footage.

From those I've watched extensively... I can say with relative confidence that Duncan is the best PF of all time, and I don't think it's that close to be honest. My rationale for saying that is that I cannot possibly picture any other PF than Duncan being put in exactly the same situation accomplishing the same things he did. That 2003 run, for instance, would be impossible if Garnett or Dirk was leading that team, I think.

Next after Duncan is Dirk. What makes me put Dirk above Garnett is his ability to consistently lift his team to surprising heights, no matter the roster put around him (getting a few calls away to the title in 2006 with a team that often started Adrian Griffin and DeSagana Diop, winning 67 games in 2007 with an even less talented roster than in 2006, and then winning the title with no other All-Star on the team against HOF laden competition in 2011). I don't think a run like Dirk's in 2011 is possible if you replace him with Garnett. A team like the 2011 Mavs could only succeed if they had a true go to scorer they could rely on down the stretch.


The third is Garnett, one of the most versatile defenders and complete players of all time, and after those three giants there's quite a gap. All three are legends, Duncan belongs firmly in the top 10, and Garnett and Dirk probably shouldn't be kept out of your top 25.

[Pointguard]

I have Duncan first as most people do. I think KG is the only player that could play him equal across the board in their primes as KG usually did this.

KG was the best rebounder, Duncan included of the bunch. Is the only one to lead the league three years in that category.

Had more skills than all other PF's.

Outside of Duncan was the the most fundamental of the group.

KG also lead the league in PER twice.

One of the best team defenders ever.

He was the most consistent of the bunch, which is hard to do when your team was as bad as it was.

KG was easily the most versatile of the group.

Got up for every game better than every other PF despite not having a very good team.

Only one to win defensive player of the year award. Was the most disciplined defender of all PF's.

Anchored one of the best defensive teams ever that won it all. Which is equal to winning it all on the offensive end but most of you don't realize that and always place offense above defense.

Was a clear cut MVP when the league had three top ten GOATs in their prime or very close to it. Dirk was also close to his prime. Lebron, Malone and Wade were also in the league but not near their primes.

Could get to the WCF on his versatile offensive abilities.

If he played on a good organization, instead of one most foul and backward ones in the modern era, this wouldn't be much of a conversation at all - except between he and Duncan.

[fpliii]

He'll be more underrated in another 10 - 15 years.

I think Nowitzki gets more love by the next generation of fans... and Garnett gets less than he does now.

- It's harder to argue "defense" than it is "lead guy on championship team"
- Garnett's offensive exploits are already marginalized
- Cursory looks at Dallas vs. Minnesota rosters will lead some to think the talent bases were closer than they really were.
- Will anybody remember or care about the Joe Smith fiasco?
- How much more time does Nowitzki have? Another 2 years? 3 years? Garnett looks done. Mentally and physically.
Abe posting on ISH? :eek: Shit just got real.

[Pointguard]

KG did not block a lot of shots because he played defense with his feet which is the more correct way to play defense. Defense at the rim means things have broke down. Most of the time a special athlete, skilled shooter or quick player will not have a problem with defense at the rim.

[Purch]

I have Duncan first as most people do. I think KG is the only player that could play him equal across the board in their primes as KG usually did this.

KG was the best rebounder, Duncan included of the bunch. Is the only one to lead the league three years in that category.

Had more skills than all other PF's.

Outside of Duncan was the the most fundamental of the group.

KG also lead the league in PER twice.

One of the best team defenders ever.

He was the most consistent of the bunch, which is hard to do when your team was as bad as it was.

KG was easily the most versatile of the group.

Got up for every game better than every other PF despite not having a very good team.

Only one to win defensive player of the year award. Was the most disciplined defender of all PF's.

Anchored one of the best defensive teams ever that won it all. Which is equal to winning it all on the offensive end but most of you don't realize that and always place offense above defense.

Was a clear cut MVP when the league had three top ten GOATs in their prime or very close to it. Dirk was also close to his prime. Lebron, Malone and Wade were also in the league but not near their primes.

Could get to the WCF on his versatile offensive abilities.

If he played on a good organization, instead of one most foul and backward ones in the modern era, this wouldn't be much of a conversation at all - except between he and Duncan.

Kg MAY be a better defensive rebounder than Barkley, but Barkley was the much better offensive rounder. He led the league in that category 3 years straight. And he's 6th all time offensive rebounds

[Purch]

I've only watched relatively famous full games of Mailman and Barkley (I watched Mailman in the early 2000s but he was past his prime by then), so it's difficult for me to judge. But it seemed to me that Barkley had a more meaningful impact on the game than Malone. McHale seems quite underrated looking at pure level of play but is tough to rank given his role, and we only have Pettit's accomplishments, not much footage.

From those I've watched extensively... I can say with relative confidence that Duncan is the best PF of all time, and I don't think it's that close to be honest. My rationale for saying that is that I cannot possibly picture any other PF than Duncan being put in exactly the same situation accomplishing the same things he did. That 2003 run, for instance, would be impossible if Garnett or Dirk was leading that team, I think.

Next after Duncan is Dirk. What makes me put Dirk above Garnett is his ability to consistently lift his team to surprising heights, no matter the roster put around him (getting a few calls away to the title in 2006 with a team that often started Adrian Griffin and DeSagana Diop, winning 67 games in 2007 with an even less talented roster than in 2006, and then winning the title with no other All-Star on the team against HOF laden competition in 2011). I don't think a run like Dirk's in 2011 is possible if you replace him with Garnett. A team like the 2011 Mavs could only succeed if they had a true go to scorer they could rely on down the stretch.


The third is Garnett, one of the most versatile defenders and complete players of all time, and after those three giants there's quite a gap. All three are legends, Duncan belongs firmly in the top 10, and Garnett and Dirk probably shouldn't be kept out of your top 25.

Yea, I just got finished watching Dirk's 40 point game against Okc in game 4. The difficulty of the shots he hit in that game.... Goodness

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dOZZbYtYZJA

If I needed one of these guys(who's not Duncan) to carry the scoring load and make a load of well defended shots it would have to be Barkley or Dirk

[gyu]

I have Duncan first as most people do. I think KG is the only player that could play him equal across the board in their primes as KG usually did this.

KG was the best rebounder, Duncan included of the bunch. Is the only one to lead the league three years in that category.

Had more skills than all other PF's.

Outside of Duncan was the the most fundamental of the group.

KG also lead the league in PER twice.

One of the best team defenders ever.

He was the most consistent of the bunch, which is hard to do when your team was as bad as it was.

KG was easily the most versatile of the group.

Got up for every game better than every other PF despite not having a very good team.

Only one to win defensive player of the year award. Was the most disciplined defender of all PF's.

Anchored one of the best defensive teams ever that won it all. Which is equal to winning it all on the offensive end but most of you don't realize that and always place offense above defense.

Was a clear cut MVP when the league had three top ten GOATs in their prime or very close to it. Dirk was also close to his prime. Lebron, Malone and Wade were also in the league but not near their primes.

Could get to the WCF on his versatile offensive abilities.

If he played on a good organization, instead of one most foul and backward ones in the modern era, this wouldn't be much of a conversation at all - except between he and Duncan.
KG is NOT the best rebounder, his rebounding numbers are inflated. Yes he gets a lot of defensive boards, but those are a gimme. He is EASILY the worst offensive rebounder among the top 5 or even top 20 power forwards. Proof of how poor of a rebounder he actually is? Check his rebounding since leaving the T'Wolves while a true great rebounder like Duncan can still get double digit rebounds even though he's one of the oldest players in the league.

[AbeVigodaLive]

KG is NOT the best rebounder, his rebounding numbers are inflated. Yes he gets a lot of defensive boards, but those are a gimme. He is EASILY the worst offensive rebounder among the top 5 or even top 20 power forwards. Proof of how poor of a rebounder he actually is? Check his rebounding since leaving the T'Wolves while a true great rebounder like Duncan can still get double digit rebounds even though he's one of the oldest players in the league.


To be fair, Boston made a concerted effort to concede offensive rebounding to be back in position on defense. It was party of their defensive philosophy.

It seemed to work out pretty well for them.


[Note: But, that being said, Garnett was never a terror on the offensive glass. Part of that is probably because while he had a post game on the block, he was also on the elbow or other places too more than a lot of traditional bigs.]

[PsychoBe]

above Fathony Bennett

[gyu]

To be fair, Boston made a concerted effort to concede offensive rebounding to be back in position on defense. It was party of their defensive philosophy.

It seemed to work out pretty well for them.


[Note: But, that being said, Garnett was never a terror on the offensive glass. Part of that is probably because while he had a post game on the block, he was also on the elbow or other places too more than a lot of traditional bigs.]
If I remember correctly, for a couple years before KG got traded from the Celtics they were one of the worst rebounding teams in the league.

Even if you check his rebounding with the T'Wolves he was never a great or even good offensive rebounder. Average at best. That's why I personally believe his rebounding stats are inflated in his best years and he has a fake reputation of being an elite rebounder because people saw he grabbed 13 rebounds a game.

[AbeVigodaLive]

If I remember correctly, for a couple years before KG got traded from the Celtics they were one of the worst rebounding teams in the league.

Even if you check his rebounding with the T'Wolves he was never a great or even good offensive rebounder. Average at best. That's why I personally believe his rebounding stats are inflated in his best years and he has a fake reputation of being an elite rebounder because people saw he grabbed 13 rebounds a game.


1) I mentioned how he wasn't a terror on the offensive glass. And provided possible reasons.

2) I love the "inflated" arguments like that. Yeah, he grabs a lot of rebounds, but not the ones I deem more important. Yeah, he gets a lot of assists, but not the ones I deem important. Yeah, he scores, but not how I think he should. Cheapens your take, in my opinion.

[gyu]

1) I mentioned how he wasn't a terror on the offensive glass. And provided possible reasons.

2) I love the "inflated" arguments like that. Yeah, he grabs a lot of rebounds, but not the ones I deem more important. Yeah, he gets a lot of assists, but not the ones I deem important. Yeah, he scores, but not how I think he should. Cheapens your take, in my opinion.
What's harder to get, offensive rebounds or defensive rebounds? Defensive rebounds are way easier given the fact that the defensive player already has the inside position. He's as big of a stat-padder as LeBron.

[Harison]

Even if you check his rebounding with the T'Wolves he was never a great or even good offensive rebounder. Average at best. That's why I personally believe his rebounding stats are inflated in his best years and he has a fake reputation of being an elite rebounder because people saw he grabbed 13 rebounds a game.

AbeVigodaLive already explained it to you, KG always had a philosophy (and Celtics implemented his tactic also when he joined them) that its better to prevent easy points from fast break than to fight for lower chance of getting offensive rebound.

Its pure math, therefore surprisingly not so many superstars do it, maybe because of their focus, i.e. Barkley was awesome at offensive rebounds, but he didnt played a lick of defense.

Not sure about what "fake rebounding reputation" you speak, it should be harder to get 13-14 rebounds almost exclusively in defense instead of both defense + offense, again its math :cheers:

[dbugz]

1.) TD
2a.) KG
2b.) Dirk
3.) K. Malone
4.) Barkley

[gyu]

AbeVigodaLive already explained it to you, KG always had a philosophy (and Celtics implemented his tactic also when he joined them) that its better to prevent easy points from fast break than to fight for lower chance of getting offensive rebound.

Its pure math, therefore surprisingly not so many superstars do it, maybe because of their focus, i.e. Barkley was awesome at offensive rebounds, but he didnt played a lick of defense.

Not sure about what "fake rebounding reputation" you speak, it should be harder to get 13-14 rebounds almost exclusively in defense instead of both defense + offense, again its math :cheers:
We'll just have to agree to disagree. Either his teammates are genuinely bad rebounders (next best rebounder Eddie Griffin averaged 6.5) or they agreed to let him get all the rebounds to boost his numbers.

[veilside23]

no one will ever touch kg's mvp season.. no one.. he had a freaking old sam casell who got injured in WCF and a washed up latrell sprewell and they had the league's best record and Beat LA Dynasty for 2 games .. without his 2nd and 3rd option... People need to be reminded of that game.

Prior to that he also beat the Cwebb stacked team Kings.

2008 KG was also 3rd to mvp voting and DPOY .

Duncan had the greatest career as a PF. But best season I will give it to KG.

KG also led the league in rebounding with prime duncan and prime shaq 2004- 2007
duncan has not led the league in rebounding
barkley led the league once
dirk has not led the league as well

[AbeVigodaLive]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Either his teammates are genuinely bad rebounders (next best rebounder Eddie Griffin averaged 6.5) or they agreed to let him get all the rebounds to boost his numbers.


That sounds about right. The Wolves conceded smart basketball plays to pad the stats of one player.

You figured it out.

[Pointguard]

KG is NOT the best rebounder, his rebounding numbers are inflated. Yes he gets a lot of defensive boards, but those are a gimme. He is EASILY the worst offensive rebounder among the top 5 or even top 20 power forwards. Proof of how poor of a rebounder he actually is? Check his rebounding since leaving the T'Wolves while a true great rebounder like Duncan can still get double digit rebounds even though he's one of the oldest players in the league.
The solid post by Abe above explained the since Minny phenomena very well.

Funny KG lead the league in rebounding when he was sometimes guarding small forwards, playing help defense and playing defense with his feet. Duncan was always under the basket and usually had better natural position than KG and rarely outrebounded KG in their rebounding primes. KG never cheated for rebounds as he was easily the best defender 10+ feet out as well. So if he slacked like the PF's above not named Duncan, he would have been an even more dominant rebounder.

As far as offensive rebounding is concerned, he and Dirk because of offensive skill set and pick setting, were usually further from the basket. But if you think Dirk was a better offensive rebounder as you have stated above, you really shouldn't be talking about the topic. If fact, you are just talking trash off the top of your head with that nonsense statement:

KG usually doubled Dirk's offensive rebounding numbers. Definitely had better offensive rebounding numbers than Malone in their primes, and was very close to Duncan's. If KG didn't have set up responsibilities on his much longer list of responsibilities than the other PF's he would be the best offensive rebounder as well, save maybe Barkley - who slacked off like crazy in his other responsibilities.

[Harison]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Either his teammates are genuinely bad rebounders (next best rebounder Eddie Griffin averaged 6.5) or they agreed to let him get all the rebounds to boost his numbers.

Why invent things? Lets stick to reality, KG never cared about stats, you would know that if you would have followed his career.

Consider the facts, why Garnetts rebounding is very impressive:

* KG managed to be the best rebounder in NBA for multiple seasons even though he ceded offensive rebounds to prevent opponents fast breaks.

* Defensively he wasnt sticking to the rim (where the most rebounds are) - instead he covered entire floor, roaming and creating havoc in opponents offense. Still he was NBA defensive rebounds leader for five seasons in the row. Just think how many rebounds he would have grabbed if he just stayed in the post?

Its math, and if you any good at it, you would be very impressed.

[Pointguard]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Either his teammates are genuinely bad rebounders (next best rebounder Eddie Griffin averaged 6.5) or they agreed to let him get all the rebounds to boost his numbers.

:lol KG was a better offensive rebounder than Malone and Dirk and was right there with Duncan every year. So the offensive teams were down with the GYU conspiracy as well.

[kshutts1]

Duncan's the better scorer, rebounder, and shot-blocker/post anchor. KG's the better passer and PnR defender. Those two qualities alone aren't enough to put KG above TD....especially when you factor in the overall decline in his stats from reg season to post-season.

PER Reg Season
Duncan: 24.6
Garnett: 23.0

PER Playoffs

Duncan: 24.9
Garnett: 21.3

Duncan's overall PER actually goes up from the regular season to the playoffs. KG's drops.

TS% Reg Season
Duncan: .551
Garnett: .547

TS% Playoffs
Duncan: .547
Garnett: .524

Duncan's TS% sees a small dip from season to playoffs while KG's suffers a big drop

WS/48 Reg Season
Duncan: .212
Garnett: .186

WS/48 Playoffs
Duncan: .195
Garnett: .150

Same thing. Small dip for Duncan, Big drop for Kg.
Scoring I already handled. I hardly consider the "difference" between the two to be meaningful. Not to mention that "scoring" is such a broad term... break it up, and Duncan is a better POST scorer only.

Duncan is the better post anchor, and KG is the better PnR defender. So we'll call that a wash?

I don't see how Duncan is a better rebounder.

Passing is close, even though assist numbers don't show it, but KG takes it. And he's a better ball-handler/creator, too.

And as for all the advanced stats you mentioned...
PER -- I don't use http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics
TS% -- Good stat.
Win Shares -- I would have to do research in to how the individual was separated from the team, and how that became quantifiable.

Edit: Just read up about Win Shares and it's utter garbage. Never taking that seriously.

[Round Mound]

[B]Some People Are Sleeping of Barkley.

The Was Easily The Best Scorer, Post Player, Rebounder, Creator and Passer of the Group.

Check Out PHILA

[niko]

KG is not one of the greatest player of all time. He's not in a tier you discuss with Duncan, Barkely, etc. he's a level below.

[Odinn]

Scoring I already handled. I hardly consider the "difference" between the two to be meaningful. Not to mention that "scoring" is such a broad term... break it up, and Duncan is a better POST scorer only.

Duncan is the better post anchor, and KG is the better PnR defender. So we'll call that a wash?

I don't see how Duncan is a better rebounder.

Passing is close, even though assist numbers don't show it, but KG takes it. And he's a better ball-handler/creator, too.

And as for all the advanced stats you mentioned...
PER -- I don't use http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics
TS% -- Good stat.
Win Shares -- I would have to do research in to how the individual was separated from the team, and how that became quantifiable.

Edit: Just read up about Win Shares and it's utter garbage. Never taking that seriously.
Here is an interesting fact for you...

Career playoff numbers;
Dirk Nowitzki; 25.9 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 14 series
Karl Malone; 24.7 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 23 series
Charles Barkley; 23.0 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 11 series
Tim Duncan; 21.9 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 11 series
Kevin Garnett; 19.2 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 2 series

[veilside23]

Here is an interesting fact for you...

Career playoff numbers;
Dirk Nowitzki; 25.9 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 14 series
Karl Malone; 24.7 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 23 series
Charles Barkley; 23.0 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 11 series
Tim Duncan; 21.9 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 11 series
Kevin Garnett; 19.2 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 2 series


here is a more interesting fact what wins Championship? DEFENSE! on that 5 names only tim duncan can be on the same level as KG .

[CarryMeShaq]

Tim Duncan is a center. Only reason he's labeled as the all time greatest PF is because he could not hang with the likes of the great Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Russell and Olajuwon.

Timmy D nothing without Parker and Manu.

[Odinn]

here is a more interesting fact what wins Championship? DEFENSE! on that 5 names only tim duncan can be on the same level as KG .
David Robinson and Patrick Ewing were better centers than Moses Malone because they were better at the defensive end. Right?

PS: Do not call your opinion as 'fact'. Just not objective...

[veilside23]

David Robinson and Patrick Ewing were better centers than Moses Malone because they were better at the defensive end. Right?

PS: Do not call your opinion as 'fact'. Just not objective...

Garnett is better than both robinson and ewing on Defense...

sorry uncle i am not as old as you to see moses malone play.

[kshutts1]

Here is an interesting fact for you...

Career playoff numbers;
Dirk Nowitzki; 25.9 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 14 series
Karl Malone; 24.7 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 23 series
Charles Barkley; 23.0 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 11 series
Tim Duncan; 21.9 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 11 series
Kevin Garnett; 19.2 ppg - averaged 25+ ppg in 2 series

I honestly don't know what you're getting at.

I respect you as a poster, so I know you're not trying to say that "highest PPG means you are the best". But other than that, I just don't understand your objective/point.

[Y2ktors]

1. Timmy
2. Malone
3. Pettit
4. KG
5. Dirk

Honorable mention

Kevin McHale, Barkley, Hayes

[Audio One]

I have Duncan first as most people do. I think KG is the only player that could play him equal across the board in their primes as KG usually did this.

KG was the best rebounder, Duncan included of the bunch. Is the only one to lead the league three years in that category.

Had more skills than all other PF's.

Outside of Duncan was the the most fundamental of the group.

KG also lead the league in PER twice.

One of the best team defenders ever.

He was the most consistent of the bunch, which is hard to do when your team was as bad as it was.

KG was easily the most versatile of the group.

Got up for every game better than every other PF despite not having a very good team.

Only one to win defensive player of the year award. Was the most disciplined defender of all PF's.

Anchored one of the best defensive teams ever that won it all. Which is equal to winning it all on the offensive end but most of you don't realize that and always place offense above defense.

Was a clear cut MVP when the league had three top ten GOATs in their prime or very close to it. Dirk was also close to his prime. Lebron, Malone and Wade were also in the league but not near their primes.

Could get to the WCF on his versatile offensive abilities.

If he played on a good organization, instead of one most foul and backward ones in the modern era, this wouldn't be much of a conversation at all - except between he and Duncan.

:applause:

[Pointguard]

David Robinson and Patrick Ewing were better centers than Moses Malone because they were better at the defensive end. Right?

PS: Do not call your opinion as 'fact'. Just not objective...

KG was one of the best team defensive players ever. Russell is considered one of the best players ever primarily for his defense. If you go playoffs and you don't talk defense that's crazy.

[rmt]

Tim Duncan is a center. Only reason he's labeled as the all time greatest PF is because he could not hang with the likes of the great Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Russell and Olajuwon.

Timmy D nothing without Parker and Manu.

Duncan has the versatility to be either PF or C. Since he played PF in his prime/peak, that's what he's thought of as. It's only as he's gotten older and slower and the league has gotten smaller/faster that he seems like he's "playing C." Remember even KG was playing C last year(?).

Actually, he plays either depending on who's on the floor. He always defends the center (slower) position now. But on offense, if Splitter's playing, he's a PF (hits mostly jumpers). When Diaw's playing, then he plays closer to the basket. Same with Blair, played PF and with Bonner, played C.

Don't know why the knock since he can play both.

Perhaps you don't remember the championship (99), FMVP (99), All-Stars (98, 00), All-Star MVP (01), 1st team All-NBA (98, 99, 00, 01), 1st All-Defensive (99, 00, 01), 2nd All-Defensive (98), Rookie of the Year (98) and All-Rookie 1st team (98) honors that Duncan got before Parker ever set foot on an NBA court.

Add in MVP, All-Star, All-NBA 1st and All-Defensive 1st (02) honors before Manu arrived in SA.

[ssginc]

Garnett is the best all around PF ever and if he was drafted by the Spurs or Lakers he'd be a Top 5 player all time right now.

[Odinn]

Garnett is better than both robinson and ewing on Defense...

sorry uncle i am not as old as you to see moses malone play.
I am not old. But I had an amazing archive that contained many games. Besides YouTube has a lot to offer. If you care much (much enough to get this sensitive), you should give it a chance.

Although I get the feeling you do not know much about even the closer history...

---


I honestly don't know what you're getting at.

I respect you as a poster, so I know you're not trying to say that "highest PPG means you are the best". But other than that, I just don't understand your objective/point.
My point is KG wasn't the offensive weapon like the 4 were. Although KG and TD were consistent 20-22+ ppg scorers in the regular season in their respective primes, KG wasn't the scorer TD was. There is a "meaningful difference" between Duncan and Garnett, scoring wise.

[SHAQisGOAT]

3rd greatest PF (arguable)
Top20 all-time

[Burgz V2]

Duncan
Malone
KG
Barkley


Dirk



Everyone else

[Artillery]

Scoring I already handled. I hardly consider the "difference" between the two to be meaningful. Not to mention that "scoring" is such a broad term... break it up, and Duncan is a better POST scorer only.

Pretty obvious Duncan's the better scorer between the two.

Amount of 20-point games in the playoffs
Duncan: 128
Garnett: 58

Amount of 25-point games in the playoffs
Duncan: 75
Garnett: 28

Amount of 30-point games in the playoffs
Duncan: 36
Garnett: 9


I don't see how Duncan is a better rebounder.

Duncan's been the better rebounder over their careers. Hell, he's still averaging 10 rpg at age 37. I don't see how this is debatable.

Season RPG
Duncan: 11.2
Garnett: 10.4

Season RPG Per36
Duncan: 11.5
Garnett: 10.4

Season Total Rebound Percentage
Duncan: 18.5%
Garnett: 17.0%

Playoff RPG
Duncan: 12.0
Garnett: 11.1

Playoff RPG Per36
Duncan: 11.1
Garnett: 10.4

Playoff Total Rebound Percentage
Duncan: 18.0%
Garnett: 17.3%


Passing is close, even though assist numbers don't show it, but KG takes it. And he's a better ball-handler/creator, too.

Garnett is the better passer but it seems to only be an advantage for him in the regular season. In the post-season, he averages 3.5 apg compared to 3.2 for Duncan. Not much of a difference.

[Artillery]

Tim Duncan is a center. Only reason he's labeled as the all time greatest PF is because he could not hang with the likes of the great Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Russell and Olajuwon.

Timmy D nothing without Parker and Manu.

Bill Russel is nothing without Havlicek, Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, etc.
Shaq is nothing without Kobe and Wade.
Kareem is nothing without Magic and Worthy.

See? Anybody can make dumb statements.

[T_L_P]

Tim Duncan is a center. Only reason he's labeled as the all time greatest PF is because he could not hang with the likes of the great Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Russell and Olajuwon.

Timmy D nothing without Parker and Manu.


Well, he won his 1st ring without Parker and Manu, and then he won his second with a rookie Manu and a Tony Parker who was getting benched in late games for speedy Claxton.

Duncan's 4 rings as the man > Shaq's 3
Wilt had all the capabilities of being the GOAT, but he pissed that away
Olajuwon missed the Playoffs and lost in the first round 10 times

[Legends66NBA7]

Top 6 PF and Top 25 all-time, at worst.

[Harison]

Pretty obvious Duncan's the better scorer between the two.

Amount of 20-point games in the playoffs
Duncan: 128
Garnett: 58

...


Do you know that you are deliberately misleading by misusing stats? You cant ignore circumstances and post some numbers and try "to make a point", because its as good as lying. Same as someone posting "career Playoffs PPG". There is a good saying: there are lies, big lies, and statistics :D

You cant take raw numbers and forget Duncan had WAY more Playoffs games in prime due to better team. Therefore if you want to compare Playoffs PPG, you should pick prime years, and check if they were primary scoring options. If you want pick high scoring games - same as above, plus similar quantity of Playoffs series.

For example, neither KG nor TD were primary scorers in '08, even though it still were tail-end of their prime years.

Now, lets compare apples to apples:

Garnett vs Duncan, prime years, Playoffs, primary scoring options:

KG '01-04: 24.4/14.9/5.0/1.4/2.0, FG 46,5%, FT% 75,6%

TD '01-07: 24.1/13.0/3.8/0.7/2.8, FG 50,6%, FT% 69,1%

KG scored a bit more, more rebounds, more assists, twice as many steals, better FT. Duncan was more efficient, and blocked more.

Or we could take the most famous and impressive Duncan's series vs LA '03, the real Finals:

24.7/15.4/5.3 with FG 52.9%

Garnett '03 vs the same LA, the series before:

27.0/15.7/5.2 with FG 51.4%. He played better, but had worse team than TD.

[Y2ktors]

I am not old. But I had an amazing archive that contained many games. Besides YouTube has a lot to offer. If you care much (much enough to get this sensitive), you should give it a chance.

Although I get the feeling you do not know much about even the closer history...

---


My point is KG wasn't the offensive weapon like the 4 were. Although KG and TD were consistent 20-22+ ppg scorers in the regular season in their respective primes, KG wasn't the scorer TD was. There is a "meaningful difference" between Duncan and Garnett, scoring wise.

Indeed! See KG could score, but Duncan was a scorer. Very big difference, which is why Tim can carry a team to a championship on his shoulders on both ends of the court and KG couldn't.

[veilside23]

I am not old. But I had an amazing archive that contained many games. Besides YouTube has a lot to offer. If you care much (much enough to get this sensitive), you should give it a chance.

Although I get the feeling you do not know much about even the closer history...

---


My point is KG wasn't the offensive weapon like the 4 were. Although KG and TD were consistent 20-22+ ppg scorers in the regular season in their respective primes, KG wasn't the scorer TD was. There is a "meaningful difference" between Duncan and Garnett, scoring wise.

kg vs td not even the prime KG..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q7WeqqPBBA

32 pts 12/18 shooting and 2 of those to secure the win...

the thought that kg "cant score as much is freaking funny" how did duncan score his points was that all because he had to create for himself... i wont even mention his hall of famer teammates.:rolleyes:

[AbeVigodaLive]

Never understood the message board phenomenon to make every Kevin Garnett thread a KG vs. Tim Duncan thread. Garnett vs. Malone or Barkley or Petit or Nowitzki each offers an interesting debate which could be argued intelligently either way.

Sure, Duncan was fortunate to be with a much better organization than Garnett for the first half of their careers, but that doesn't dismiss anything that actually happened.

When comparing the all-time best, elite players... stats are important. But sometimes, other things like impact on the court in big moments matter quite a hell of a lot too.

And Duncan has 4 rings. Garnett only 1. We could GUESS how they would have done if roles were reversed, but that's all conjecture. So we can only go by what happened.

And that's why Garnett just doesn't stack up to Duncan... despite poster's unwillingness to let an unwinnable debate go.

[Harison]

Indeed! See KG could score, but Duncan was a scorer. Very big difference, which is why Tim can carry a team to a championship on his shoulders on both ends of the court and KG couldn't.

KG in prime in Playoffs was scoring 24,4 PPG, Duncan - 24,1 PPG. So are you saying KG should score even more than Duncan to be considered a scorer? How does that work? :D



And Duncan has 4 rings. Garnett only 1. We could GUESS how they would have done if roles were reversed, but that's all conjecture. So we can only go by what happened.

And that's why Garnett just doesn't stack up to Duncan... despite poster's unwillingness to let an unwinnable debate go.

Everyone places TD ahead of KG due to accolades, like I have TD as Top9, and KG in Top15.

What fans are debating, is their talent, skill and impact. KG was in general as good as Tim, in some areas a bit worse, in some - better.

[T_L_P]

kg vs td not even the prime KG..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q7WeqqPBBA

32 pts 12/18 shooting and 2 of those to secure the win...

the thought that kg "cant score as much is freaking funny" how did duncan score his points was that all because he had to create for himself... i wont even mention his hall of famer teammates.:rolleyes:

None of which played like Hall of Famers from '00-'05.

Latrell, and arguably Casell, played better than any of Duncan's teammates in the '03 Playoffs, yet Duncan still got them the ship :rolleyes:

[T_L_P]

Everyone places TD ahead of KG due to accolades, like I have TD as Top9, and KG in Top15.

What fans are debating, is their talent, skill and impact. KG was in general as good as Tim, in some areas a bit worse, in some - better.


Have you ever contemplated that Duncan might simply bring the best out of his teammates, which is the ultimate difference between the two?

And Duncan's defensive impact > Garnett's.

Garnett can do a lot more on defense, but at the end of the day the most impactful is interior D (see Russell, see Wallace in '04).

[AbeVigodaLive]

Have you ever contemplated that Duncan might simply bring the best out of his teammates, which is the ultimate difference between the two?

And Duncan's defensive impact > Garnett's.

Garnett can do a lot more on defense, but at the end of the day the most impactful is interior D (see Russell, see Wallace in '04).



Indeed. That's what separates them on defense to me. Garnett is arguably the best PnR defender... but Duncan wasn't bad in his own right.

The difference was that Duncan provided a bit more rim protection. And it proved invaluable when it matters most... in the playoffs. I just think his traditional big man defense made more of an impact than Garnett's superior versatility.

[Harison]

Have you ever contemplated that Duncan might simply bring the best out of his teammates, which is the ultimate difference between the two?

Is he? Garnett established his culture in Celtics, and inspired two All-stars (never know for their defense) to become solid defenders, by their own admission. Has TD done it? Not that I'm aware off, and culture in Spurs is probably more by Pop than Duncan, IMHO.

We have an example of how Rasho Nesterovic was seen as upcoming star when he was spoon fed by KG, but as soon as he joined Spurs, he fell off the cliff. So how Duncan made him better?

Another nice example, KG made Perkins look like one of the best post defenders in NBA, he got big contract in OKC... How is he doing without KG? :lol



And Duncan's defensive impact > Garnett's.

Garnett can do a lot more on defense, but at the end of the day the most impactful is interior D (see Russell, see Wallace in '04).

Emotions aside, read up how KG was the most impactful defender of the decade:
https://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/howard-is-the-dpoy-but-hes-no-garnett/

And this thread:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308314

KG was literally saving Celtics from 33 opponents points, and thats defense only, post-prime. Its insane, and with all due respect to Duncan, I dont think he measures up there.

Another major defensive area - KG is quaterbacking entire defense, communicates and holds everyone accountable.

Plus its a misconception that Duncan is playing like Russell, thats incorrect, TD is playing traditional "vertical" D (a la Wilt, Dwight, Big Ben, etc), while KG is playing "horizontal" defense, just like Russell did.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Is he? Garnett established his culture in Celtics, and inspired two All-stars (never know for their defense) to become solid defenders, by their own admission. Has TD done it? Not that I'm aware off, and culture in Spurs is probably more by Pop than Duncan, IMHO.

We have an example of how Rasho Nesterovic was seen as upcoming star when he was spoon fed by KG, but as soon as he joined Spurs, he fell off the cliff. So how Duncan made him better?

Another nice example, KG made Perkins look like one of the best post defenders in NBA, he got big contract in OKC... How is he doing without KG? :lol





Emotions aside, read up how KG was the most impactful defender of the decade:
https://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/howard-is-the-dpoy-but-hes-no-garnett/

And this thread:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308314

KG was literally saving Celtics from 33 opponents points, and thats defense only, post-prime. Its insane, and with all due respect to Duncan, I dont think he measures up there.

Another major defensive area - KG is quaterbacking entire defense, communicates and holds everyone accountable.

Plus its a misconception that Duncan is playing like Russell, thats incorrect, TD is playing traditional "vertical" D (a la Wilt, Dwight, Big Ben, etc), while KG is playing "horizontal" defense, just like Russell did.


Garnett's impact on the Celtics is undeniable. BUT... he wasn't alone. Remember, Tom Thibodeau arrived that same offseason. And you have to mention him if we're trying to add context into a deeper discussion.

TOGETHER... they helped to change the culture in Boston. Defense became a priority. I don't mean to dismiss Garnett's contributions. But, just a few months earlier, with Garnett on the Wolves, the team's defensive rating was 21st in the L.

And, it's dicey to claim a player was only credible because of who he played with. A lot of things can happen, including schemes, injuries, motivation (contracts and other)... to influence how a guy performs. Bottom line, Perkins was a good one-on-one post defender who could match up without the Celtics needing to help him double.

Give Perkins credit for that. He deserves it. And Thibodeau deserves credit for his defensive schemes, too.

[rmt]

Do you know that you are deliberately misleading by misusing stats? You cant ignore circumstances and post some numbers and try "to make a point", because its as good as lying. Same as someone posting "career Playoffs PPG". There is a good saying: there are lies, big lies, and statistics :D

You cant take raw numbers and forget Duncan had WAY more Playoffs games in prime due to better team. Therefore if you want to compare Playoffs PPG, you should pick prime years, and check if they were primary scoring options. If you want pick high scoring games - same as above, plus similar quantity of Playoffs series.

For example, neither KG nor TD were primary scorers in '08, even though it still were tail-end of their prime years.

Now, lets compare apples to apples:

Garnett vs Duncan, prime years, Playoffs, primary scoring options:

KG '01-04: 24.4/14.9/5.0/1.4/2.0, FG 46,5%, FT% 75,6%

TD '01-07: 24.1/13.0/3.8/0.7/2.8, FG 50,6%, FT% 69,1%

KG scored a bit more, more rebounds, more assists, twice as many steals, better FT. Duncan was more efficient, and blocked more.

Or we could take the most famous and impressive Duncan's series vs LA '03, the real Finals:

24.7/15.4/5.3 with FG 52.9%

Garnett '03 vs the same LA, the series before:

27.0/15.7/5.2 with FG 51.4%. He played better, but had worse team than TD.

LOL, you're lecturing him on misleading by misusing stats and yet you think comparing KG's 01-04 to TD's 01-07 is comparing apples to apples. Don't you think it's harder to maintain high stats over a longer period of time?

And in your next post, you compare KG and TD using data from 03-04 to 10-11 (https://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/howard-is-the-dpoy-but-hes-no-garnett/), leaving out PRIME and PEAK Duncan years when he won 2 rings, 2 FMVPs, 2 MVPs. So the years when he got 5 All-Defensive 1st teams and 1 All-Defensive 2nd team aren't included. Why not instead look at the entirety of their careers and not cherry-pick years that favor one over the other. And yes, I know, you're not the one who wrote the article and picked those years, but don't paint half a picture and then declare KG "the most impactful defender of the decade" based on certain years.



Emotions aside, read up how KG was the most impactful defender of the decade:
https://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/howard-is-the-dpoy-but-hes-no-garnett/

And this thread:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308314

KG was literally saving Celtics from 33 opponents points, and thats defense only, post-prime. Its insane, and with all due respect to Duncan, I dont think he measures up there.

Another major defensive area - KG is quaterbacking entire defense, communicates and holds everyone accountable.

Plus its a misconception that Duncan is playing like Russell, thats incorrect, TD is playing traditional "vertical" D (a la Wilt, Dwight, Big Ben, etc), while KG is playing "horizontal" defense, just like Russell did.

[Alan Ogg]

Duncan
Pettit
Malone
KG / Dirk
Barkley

[Alan Ogg]

Side note, by the time he retires, I think Dirk will be top 5 or 6 on the all-time scoring list.

[Odinn]

Let's make it apples to apples, like it was not...

Garnett from 2001 playoffs to 2004 playoffs;
31 games 43.3 mpg 24.4 ppg 14.9 rpg 5.0 apg 1.4 spg 2.0 bpg .465 fg .756 ft

Duncan from 2001 playoffs to 2004 playoffs;
56 games 41.6 mpg 24.6 ppg 14.3 rpg 4.5 apg 0.8 spg 3.1 bpg .504 fg .688 ft

Duncan from 2002 playoffs to 2005 playoffs;
66 games 40.5 mpg 24.6 ppg 13.6 rpg 4.0 apg 0.6 spg 2.9 bpg .493 fg .707 ft

Duncan from 2003 playoffs to 2006 playoffs;
70 games 39.8 mpg 24.2 ppg 12.9 rpg 3.8 apg 0.6 spg 2.5 bpg .513 fg .692 ft

Duncan from 2004 playoffs to 2007 playoffs;
66 games 37.9 mpg 23.4 ppg 11.6 rpg 3.1 apg 0.6 spg 2.4 bpg .509 fg .685 ft

If posting career numbers is not apples to apples, comparing 4 seasons of primes is more 'apples to apples' than comparing entire primes. It wasn't Duncan's fault KG not being in the playoffs 3 seasons in a row.



And since when is a scorer like Garnett, then, having troubles with getting his point at 35+? There is nothing wrong with the concept of my previous post.

Nowitzki was a 26.8 ppg scorer at the age of 33 in playoffs. He is a 21.2 ppg guy now, age 35.
Chuck was capable of going for 20+ ppg in the playoffs at his 35. (tho his general numbers are the closest to KG's)
I won't be even bothering about Karl Malone.
It is not safe to claim Duncan's ppg numbers can match this but still a lot better than KG.

What's wrong with career numbers for a 'leading' scorer like KG?

Duncan was capable of averaging 20+ ppg against Wallace's (although he's efficiency sucked) while recovering from an injury. I'd love to see KD doing something like that.

I love the weak supporting cast btw.
Like Duncan never had Derek Anderson on his team as the 2nd option. Or inconsistent rookie Parker.
Or like KG wasn't one of the responsible ones making building a team around him harder.
Just, Duncan was/is a easier to build a team around. His skill-set is more suitable (you can disagree with that but not with the following one) and costed like 60 million USD less. (from 2001 to 2007, KG is paid roughly 150 million $ and TD is paid roughly 93 million $)

Salaries aside, I guess KG lovers are the only ones that would choose KG over TD to lead their scoring/offense. Team owners wouldn't. Coaches wouldn't. Most of us wouldn't, except for KG lovers. They would.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Just, Duncan was/is a easier to build a team around. His skill-set is more suitable (you can disagree with that but not with the following one) and costed like 60 million USD less. (from 2001 to 2007, KG is paid roughly 150 million $ and TD is paid roughly 93 million $)

Salaries aside, I guess KG lovers are the only ones that would choose KG over TD to lead their scoring/offense. Team owners wouldn't. Coaches wouldn't. Most of us wouldn't, except for KG lovers. They would.


To be fair, I do find your mention of the salary stuff to be a bit disingenuous.

That has more to do with bad timing (for the Wolves) than anything else. In an era where Juwan Howard was making $100+M... Garnett's contract wasn't out of line. But he is seen as the poster boy for outrageous contracts.

Imagine if Duncan was ready for a new contract that season. He'd have flown past the $150M mark, right? The Spurs benefited from the tighter salary parameters after the '99 lockout. It's all about timing...

[Odinn]

To be fair, I do find your mention of the salary stuff to be a bit disingenuous.

That has more to do with bad timing (for the Wolves) than anything else. In an era where Juwan Howard was making $100+M... Garnett's contract wasn't out of line. But he is seen as the poster boy for outrageous contracts.

Imagine if Duncan was ready for a new contract that season. He'd have flown past the $150M mark, right? The Spurs benefited from the tighter salary parameters after the '99 lockout. It's all about timing...
There are always overpaid guys. Think about this way;
Season / Salary cap / KG's Salary / TD's Salary
2000-01 / 35.5 / 19.6 (55.2%) / 9.7 (27.3%)
2001-02 / 42.5 / 22.4 (52.7%) / 10.9 (25.6%)
2002-03 / 40.3 / 25.2 (62.5%) / 12.1 (30.0%)
2003-04 / 43.8 / 28.0 (63.9%) / 12.7 (29.0%)
2004-05 / 43.9 / 16.0 (36.4%) / 14.3 (32.6%)
2005-06 / 49.5 / 18.0 (36.4%) / 15.8 (31.9%)
2006-07 / 53.1 / 21.0 (39.5%) / 17.4 (32.8%)

The only player that was being paid comparable to KG was Shaq in that span.

[AbeVigodaLive]

There are always overpaid guys. Think about this way;
Season / Salary cap / KG's Salary / TD's Salary
2000-01 / 35.5 / 19.6 (55.2%) / 9.7 (27.3%)
2001-02 / 42.5 / 22.4 (52.7%) / 10.9 (25.6%)
2002-03 / 40.3 / 25.2 (62.5%) / 12.1 (30.0%)
2003-04 / 43.8 / 28.0 (63.9%) / 12.7 (29.0%)
2004-05 / 43.9 / 16.0 (36.4%) / 14.3 (32.6%)
2005-06 / 49.5 / 18.0 (36.4%) / 15.8 (31.9%)
2006-07 / 53.1 / 21.0 (39.5%) / 17.4 (32.8%)

The only player that was being paid comparable to KG was Shaq in that span.



Don't know what that has to do with my post.

Again. Duncan would have accepted a deal for even more money than Garnett had the timing been different for the two players... and two franchises.

The timing allowed one organization to have more leeway surrounding their All NBA big with auxiliary help. And it hindered the other a bit... along with losing 4 draft picks to try to land Joe Smith.

I don't blame the 22 year old player for that. It's just unfortunate timing.

[Odinn]

Don't know what that has to do with my post.

Again. Duncan would have accepted a deal for even more money than Garnett had the timing been different for the two players... and two franchises.

The timing allowed one organization to have more leeway surrounding their All NBA big with auxiliary help. And it hindered the other a bit... along with losing 4 draft picks to try to land Joe Smith.

I don't blame the 22 year old player for that. It's just unfortunate timing.
I didn't claim KG's contract was out of the line. But it really made difficult to build a team around him and that was my point for mentioning the salaries.

I do not blame 22 year-old KG for accepting that contract. But it is hard to say he was as determined as Duncan which signed for less money after KG accepted his own or Shaq which gave up on his 10 million $ per season from his outrageous contract to let front office to do their job.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I didn't claim KG's contract was out of the line. But it really made difficult to build a team around him and that was my point for mentioning the salaries.

I do not blame 22 year-old KG for accepting that contract. But it is hard to say he was as determined as Duncan which signed for less money after KG accepted his own or Shaq which gave up on his 10 million $ per season from his outrageous contract to let front office to do their job.


1) Duncan couldn't sign for as much as Garnett. The new CBA rules forbid it.
2) I believe both Duncan and Garnett have taken TWO paycuts throughout their careers. When you're starting at a higher salary... it might not seem like as much I guess.

[coolhandsteve]

He'll be more underrated in another 10 - 15 years.

I think Nowitzki gets more love by the next generation of fans... and Garnett gets less than he does now.

- It's harder to argue "defense" than it is "lead guy on championship team"
- Garnett's offensive exploits are already marginalized
- Cursory looks at Dallas vs. Minnesota rosters will lead some to think the talent bases were closer than they really were.
- Will anybody remember or care about the Joe Smith fiasco?
- How much more time does Nowitzki have? Another 2 years? 3 years? Garnett looks done. Mentally and physically.

:applause:
A lot of people also put up Big Ticket's playoff numbers and use them against KG, but remember he played with an alpha-dog scorer in Paul Pierce and another 15-20 point scorer in Ray Allen during his later years in Boston..so the need to score wasn't as high on KG.

[Pointguard]

Garnett's impact on the Celtics is undeniable. BUT... he wasn't alone. Remember, Tom Thibodeau arrived that same offseason. And you have to mention him if we're trying to add context into a deeper discussion.

TOGETHER... they helped to change the culture in Boston. Defense became a priority. I don't mean to dismiss Garnett's contributions. But, just a few months earlier, with Garnett on the Wolves, the team's defensive rating was 21st in the L.
In KG's first season with a organization that had a real plan with a defensive scheme with real organization they had one of the best defenses ever. There wasn't great defensive pieces in Boston. If I asked you the T Wolves defensive scheme in 2007 you couldn't begin to describe it. And KG, who played with as much intensity as anybody in the history of the league gets called out for not having extra energy to play a non defensive scheme above the call of duty is a bit of a low blow.


And, it's dicey to claim a player was only credible because of who he played with. A lot of things can happen, including schemes, injuries, motivation (contracts and other)... to influence how a guy performs. Bottom line, Perkins was a good one-on-one post defender who could match up without the Celtics needing to help him double.
Bottom line is there were no centers that needed doubles though. Who are you talking about? DH who was too quick for Perkins but they didn't mind putting KG on him? Shaq played them twice that year but wasn't in good shape for either game.


Give Perkins credit for that. He deserves it. And Thibodeau deserves credit for his defensive schemes, too.
Give KG credit for being the reason that the '07 team being the best team ever in closing out driving lanes. KG's communication to help them trap and push out players was great and he was the orchestrator by ways of communication. Thibes deserves credit too, definitely. But communication on defense, the way KG orchestrated that defense, is worth way more than a rim protector.

[AbeVigodaLive]

In KG's first season with a organization that had a real plan with a defensive scheme with real organization they had one of the best defenses ever. There wasn't great defensive pieces in Boston. If I asked you the T Wolves defensive scheme in 2007 you couldn't begin to describe it. And KG, who played with as much intensity as anybody in the history of the league gets called out for not having extra energy to play a non defensive scheme above the call of duty is a bit of a low blow.

Bottom line is there were no centers that needed doubles though. Who are you talking about? DH who was too quick for Perkins but they didn't mind putting KG on him? Shaq played them twice that year but wasn't in good shape for either game.

Give KG credit for being the reason that the '07 team being the best team ever in closing out driving lanes. KG's communication to help them trap and push out players was great and he was the orchestrator by ways of communication. Thibes deserves credit too, definitely. But communication on defense, the way KG orchestrated that defense, is worth way more than a rim protector.


Perkins did well against many centers. And Garnett was the best defensive player in the league.

Aided by an incredible system that allowed him to gain more success.

I just took offense to your earlier claims where you seemed to be diminishing others to tout "your guy" with a lot of disingenuous comments without context. I consider that a lazy technique.

[veilside23]

None of which played like Hall of Famers from '00-'05.

Latrell, and arguably Casell, played better than any of Duncan's teammates in the '03 Playoffs, yet Duncan still got them the ship :rolleyes:


this has got to be the funniest crap i have seen in ish.. Latrell and Casell played better than Duncan's team mate.. are you high on something ?


Dude i cant stop laughing at your post.. if you think that A 40 year old sam casell and a 38 year old spree is better than duncan's team mate. are you serious about this? they were KG's best teammate and got injured before the finals and they were able to win 2 Games over LA with Troy Hudson at the point .. go ahead google his name and see how great Troy hudson was a hall of famer :facepalm

[Pointguard]

And since when is a scorer like Garnett, then, having troubles with getting his point at 35+? There is nothing wrong with the concept of my previous post.
What type of criteria is 35+??? And this strong over emphasis on ppg on a position that traditionally never emphasized that until very recently. Where do you have Russell ranked???

So Durant is the best player in the game the last three years? Durant is far better than any of the current players probably ever were - Duncan, Dirk, KG and Lebron???


Nowitzki was a 26.8 ppg scorer at the age of 33 in playoffs. He is a 21.2 ppg guy now, age 35.
Chuck was capable of going for 20+ ppg in the playoffs at his 35. (tho his general numbers are the closest to KG's)
I won't be even bothering about Karl Malone.
It is not safe to claim Duncan's ppg numbers can match this but still a lot better than KG.
After the age of 31 KG played on more contenders than any of them, as the man. Different priorities.



What's wrong with career numbers for a 'leading' scorer like KG?
Because he had different priorities at different times in his career. And you seem only capable of looking at points.



I love the weak supporting cast btw.
Like Duncan never had Derek Anderson on his team as the 2nd option. Or inconsistent rookie Parker.
On a team that had great defensive pieces, HOFer, and one of the best coaches ever and a solid organization.


Or like KG wasn't one of the responsible ones making building a team around him harder.
So now he's the GM, team builder and the guy I suppose that lost three first round draft picks for his back up that wasn't even good?


Salaries aside, I guess KG lovers are the only ones that would choose KG over TD to lead their scoring/offense. Team owners wouldn't. Coaches wouldn't. Most of us wouldn't, except for KG lovers. They would.
For scoring offense I would pick Dirk, then Barkley, then Malone over Duncan or KG without hesitation. Or is it that your criteria changes according to who you are comparing??? Or do you have a consistent criteria?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Duncan is a Center, so the best PFs I've ever seen?

Barkley
Malone
Garnett
Dirk

[Pointguard]

Perkins did well against many centers. And Garnett was the best defensive player in the league.

Aided by an incredible system that allowed him to gain more success.

I just took offense to your earlier claims where you seemed to be diminishing others to tout "your guy" with a lot of disingenuous comments without context. I consider that a lazy technique.
Wasn't me Abe. Trust me, I am never lazy in anything I say. You were saying something about culture and I never said anything about that here. I think you were talking with Harison.

[Pointguard]

Have you ever contemplated that Duncan might simply bring the best out of his teammates, which is the ultimate difference between the two?

And Duncan's defensive impact > Garnett's.

Garnett can do a lot more on defense, but at the end of the day the most impactful is interior D (see Russell, see Wallace in '04).
I will give Duncan being better at defending the rim but KG defends the lane much better. Defending at the rim is a flawed concept as it is often too late. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQxgHgRh95Y in which Kobe constantly dunks on Duncan because defense at the rim is too late. Both are interior D. KG plays D with his feet and meets the ball earlier to deflect even decision making about getting to the basket. Kobe, or anybody else, rarely got to the rim the whole year against Boston.

The other element of defense that is more important than anything is communication and KG was also one of the very best at that - its why I say he's the best defensive team player ever.

[Pointguard]

:applause:
Thanks!!!

[rmt]

On a team that had great defensive pieces, HOFer, and one of the best coaches ever and a solid organization.


I very much doubt that Pop was considered one of the best coaches ever in 02-03 (having won only 1 championship).

What great defensive pieces? Bowen - okay, Duncan - okay. DRob was 38 years old with a bad back and only played 23 minutes/game. Maybe the great defensive pieces were Parker, SJax, Manu, Steve Kerr, Steve Smith, Malik Rose, Speedy, Danny Ferry?

As far as the salary/team mates discussion, KG signed THREE contracts with MIN when it was clear that they weren't surrounding him with pieces to win. I have no problem with him choosing money, but it was HIS CHOICE and the lack of/quality of team mates shouldn't be used as an excuse for why he didn't do better or win more. He could have left and gone somewhere for a better chance to win. I'd guess that KG considers his $90,663,243 more in salary than TD well worth the difference in their number of rings.

[Pointguard]

I very much doubt that Pop was considered one of the best coaches ever in 02-03 (having won only 1 championship).

What great defensive pieces? Bowen - okay, Duncan - okay. DRob was 38 years old with a bad back and only played 23 minutes/game. Maybe the great defensive pieces were Parker, SJax, Manu, Steve Kerr, Steve Smith, Malik Rose, Speedy, Danny Ferry?

As far as the salary/team mates discussion, KG signed THREE contracts with MIN when it was clear that they weren't surrounding him with pieces to win. I have no problem with him choosing money, but it was HIS CHOICE and the lack of/quality of team mates shouldn't be used as an excuse for why he didn't do better or win more. He could have left and gone somewhere for a better chance to win. I'd guess that KG considers his $90,663,243 more in salary than TD well worth the difference in their number of rings.
???
Robinson blocked more shots per game than Duncan did and played 29 minutes per game. Popovich was at least the 2nd best coach in the game and was better at adjusting than any other coach. Antonio Daniels, Shawn Elliot and Derek Anderson were good defenders. Malik Rose, Avery Johnson and Terry Porter were all also good defenders and all played above 20 minutes per game.

GM's deal with contracts so don't go there, at best its a cop out. KG and Duncan are both loyal guys and hopefully put their families first as neither were stupid. KG didn't give up the draft picks and that hurt them more than anything else. When Nesterovic played with KG and excelled SA ended up with him, he sucked for SA btw, but Minny couldn't keep players from SA who had just won it all. And got waaaaay more out of the draft picks in those years too. Blame KG on the draft picks too???

A better organization is a better organization. A bad organization is a bad organization. KG could have given them 10s of millions of dollars and it would not have helped. A team that can pick up HOF with the 28 and 57th picks against a team that gave away three first rounders for a 2nd stringer whose name I can't remember. If you think KG's contract was the difference between the organizations, you just don't know.

[kshutts1]

... I think this conversation has made it clear that Duncan is not the consensus #1 PF, anyway. KG certainly has an argument. But I'd never drop Duncan below "1B" level, lol.

And to respond to Odinn's (I think) post about PPG, and how he meant to show that KG was not a go-to scorer that could get his when he needed to, etc. That's true. So KG is not on the same level as Duncan as a go-to scorer, but he also doesn't need to be. Neither of them need to be. If that's not KGs role, I certainly won't, and don't, hold it against him.

But as an overall player, I view them very similarly in terms of impact, even if they impact the game in different ways.

[Y2ktors]

... I think this conversation has made it clear that Duncan is not the consensus #1 PF, anyway. KG certainly has an argument. But I'd never drop Duncan below "1B" level, lol.

And to respond to Odinn's (I think) post about PPG, and how he meant to show that KG was not a go-to scorer that could get his when he needed to, etc. That's true. So KG is not on the same level as Duncan as a go-to scorer, but he also doesn't need to be. Neither of them need to be. If that's not KGs role, I certainly won't, and don't, hold it against him.

But as an overall player, I view them very similarly in terms of impact, even if they impact the game in different ways.

In Minnesota, he needed to be and wasn't most of the time. This is the deciding factor for me personally between him and Tim Duncan.

[sketchy]

KG is the best power forward ever. Top 15 all-time. Tim Duncan is higher than him (top 10), and is the 3rd best center ever.

[Pointguard]

... I think this conversation has made it clear that Duncan is not the consensus #1 PF, anyway. KG certainly has an argument. But I'd never drop Duncan below "1B" level, lol.

And to respond to Odinn's (I think) post about PPG, and how he meant to show that KG was not a go-to scorer that could get his when he needed to, etc. That's true. So KG is not on the same level as Duncan as a go-to scorer, but he also doesn't need to be. Neither of them need to be. If that's not KGs role, I certainly won't, and don't, hold it against him.

But as an overall player, I view them very similarly in terms of impact, even if they impact the game in different ways.
Yes, good post. Duncan is number one for me as well.

He and KG scored very similar in their prime. So if scoring is used as an excuse on KG then Duncan shouldn't be your number one anyway as he wasn't the scorer Malone, Dirk or Barkley were.

Also Duncan didn't rebound like KG did despite playing in a better position to rebound.

Defensively Duncan being better than KG is at least debatable and could go either way. Hard to argue that anybody in the modern era was a better team defender than KG.

[Purch]

... I think this conversation has made it clear that Duncan is not the consensus #1 PF, anyway. KG certainly has an argument. But I'd never drop Duncan below "1B" level, lol.

And to respond to Odinn's (I think) post about PPG, and how he meant to show that KG was not a go-to scorer that could get his when he needed to, etc. That's true. So KG is not on the same level as Duncan as a go-to scorer, but he also doesn't need to be. Neither of them need to be. If that's not KGs role, I certainly won't, and don't, hold it against him.

But as an overall player, I view them very similarly in terms of impact, even if they impact the game in different ways.
Nah, he definitely is. Throughout every basketball forum I've been on including this one the overwhelming majority recognize Duncan as the best power foward of all time. In fact the majority of the people who don't recognize it, are the group of people who belive he's a center.

The word consensus doesn't mean every single person buys into it. But the majority of people agree with it.

[rmt]

???
Robinson blocked more shots per game than Duncan did and played 29 minutes per game. Popovich was at least the 2nd best coach in the game and was better at adjusting than any other coach. Antonio Daniels, Shawn Elliot and Derek Anderson were good defenders. Malik Rose, Avery Johnson and Terry Porter were all also good defenders and all played above 20 minutes per game.

GM's deal with contracts so don't go there, at best its a cop out. KG and Duncan are both loyal guys and hopefully put their families first as neither were stupid. KG didn't give up the draft picks and that hurt them more than anything else. When Nesterovic played with KG and excelled SA ended up with him, he sucked for SA btw, but Minny couldn't keep players from SA who had just won it all. And got waaaaay more out of the draft picks in those years too. Blame KG on the draft picks too???

A better organization is a better organization. A bad organization is a bad organization. KG could have given them 10s of millions of dollars and it would not have helped. A team that can pick up HOF with the 28 and 57th picks against a team that gave away three first rounders for a 2nd stringer whose name I can't remember. If you think KG's contract was the difference between the organizations, you just don't know.

I was referring to 03 playoffs when DRob played 23 mins and averaged 1.3 blks. The year Odinn mentioned (01-02) when Parker was an inconsistent rookie, DRob averaged only 20 mins and 0.8 blks in the playoffs. If you are referring to 00-01, no one in their right minds referred to Pop as (in your own words) "one of the best coaches ever."

I'm not blaming KG for anything. He's not stupid - he knew what was going on - he made his choice and I'm sure he's happy with his $315+m, but his team mates shouldn't be used as an excuse for him. He chose to stay there instead of going somewhere else to try for a better chance to win.

[Purch]

Nah, he definitely is. Throughout every basketball forum I've been on including this one the overwhelming majority recognize Duncan as the best power foward of all time. In fact the majority of the people who don't recognize it, are the group of people who belive he's a center.

The word consensus doesn't mean every single person buys into it. But the majority of people agree with it.
For example the consensus is that Mj is the greatest player of all time, however, you have groups that argue Russell, Kareem and Wilt.


Same with this argument. The consensus is that Timmy is the greatest Pf of all time. But you still have groups that argue Garnett, Dirk, Malone or Barkley.

There's a reason why that's the consensus, and it's simple to understand why. When you look at all 5 of these guys , theyre pretty close when it comes to their impact on the court, and you can argue which one was marginally better. However Duncan's achieved everything they have, including individual accolades , along with four championship rings.

This isn't simply something I've just observed here. I've started this same discussion on a ridiculous number of forums over the past 5 years.

I think the distinction made in this thread , is that just because Duncan is considered the best power foward of all time, doesn't mean that he was a better player than a different power foward in terms of production on the court and impact.

Because arguing something like Barkley's peak over Duncans has a lot of credibility. To be realistic if you gave any of the four powerfowards I listed the accomplishments of Tim Duncan, they would be the consensus #1 Pf of all time. Because all 5 of these guys were close as players on the court.

[Pointguard]

I was referring to 03 playoffs when DRob played 23 mins and averaged 1.3 blks. The year Odinn mentioned (01-02) when Parker was an inconsistent rookie, DRob averaged only 20 mins and 0.8 blks in the playoffs. If you are referring to 00-01, no one in their right minds referred to Pop as (in your own words) "one of the best coaches ever."

I'm not blaming KG for anything. He's not stupid - he knew what was going on - he made his choice and I'm sure he's happy with his $315+m, but his team mates shouldn't be used as an excuse for him. He chose to stay there instead of going somewhere else to try for a better chance to win.
Actually Odinn said Derek Anderson was the number two scorer. He was gone by the '02 season so it couldn't be that season. Odinn didn't say anything about Parker. Who wasn't in any of my or his post so you can see why I was confused.

As far as you going on about the GM's responsibilities that greatly hurt that team you are waaaay off base. How did KG mortgage the future of draft picks? That was the only plan the GM's had they blew it all on KG's back up. Who has Minny kept even since then. Look at their draft picks since the beginning of time. Stop acting like they are SA or LA. Blaming KG is ludicrous. And leaving organizations like Lebron did wasn't popular then. And loyalty wasn't a curse.

And Pop came in a very good and resourceful coach from the beginning - this definitely wasn't some he had to get his feet wet type of thing. Who are you saying was better back then outside of Phil?

[bizil]

Duncan is a lock for PF GOAT wise of course. From there, u can argue Mailman, Chuck, or KG for 2nd.. I really can't distinguish the 2nd GOAT PF after Duncan u can go many ways. But I got KG 2nd behind Duncan. Amongst all players, I got KG in the top 20-25 area. Now peak value wise at PF, u could say Duncan, KG, Barkley, or Malone. I think Barkley was the most versatile player on offense, Malone the best scorer, Duncan the most dominant in the paint, while KG was the most versatile overall in the two way sense.

[T_L_P]

this has got to be the funniest crap i have seen in ish.. Latrell and Casell played better than Duncan's team mate.. are you high on something ?


Dude i cant stop laughing at your post.. if you think that A 40 year old sam casell and a 38 year old spree is better than duncan's team mate. are you serious about this? they were KG's best teammate and got injured before the finals and they were able to win 2 Games over LA with Troy Hudson at the point .. go ahead google his name and see how great Troy hudson was a hall of famer :facepalm

I'm sorry, I should have made myself clearer: I'm talking about the '04 Playoffs, and yes, a 32-year-old Spreewell and a 34-year-old Cassell outperformed a 20-year-old Tony Parker and 22-year-old Stephen Jackson, our second and third best players.

But yes...Cassell was injured in the LA series and he stunk.

[fpliii]

... I think this conversation has made it clear that Duncan is not the consensus #1 PF, anyway. KG certainly has an argument. But I'd never drop Duncan below "1B" level, lol.

And to respond to Odinn's (I think) post about PPG, and how he meant to show that KG was not a go-to scorer that could get his when he needed to, etc. That's true. So KG is not on the same level as Duncan as a go-to scorer, but he also doesn't need to be. Neither of them need to be. If that's not KGs role, I certainly won't, and don't, hold it against him.

But as an overall player, I view them very similarly in terms of impact, even if they impact the game in different ways.

Completely agree.

[Legends66NBA7]

... I think this conversation has made it clear that Duncan is not the consensus #1 PF, anyway.

Which seems illogical, considering that many things we factor into the discussion points towards Tim Duncan's favour. Stats, Accolades, Impact, Big moments, etc... I just don't see how it's not Duncan.

The only argument otherwise is that he's not a PF, but a center. :confusedshrug:

[fpliii]

Which seems illogical, considering that many things we factor into the discussion points towards Tim Duncan's favour. Stats, Accolades, Impact, Big moments, etc... I just don't see how it's not Duncan.

The only argument otherwise is that he's not a PF, but a center. :confusedshrug:
Impact is my only criterion, since I don't bother with legacy/GOAT lists. I still think it's close, though, and would probably take Duncan to start a team because of the scoring. In most cases, I'd want KG as that piece in the championship puzzle due to portability/versatility/defensive mobility.

[Anaximandro1]

Which seems illogical, considering that many things we factor into the discussion points towards Tim Duncan's favour. Stats,

Yeah

Duncan is so far ahead of everyone else on the court...

Playoffs - Advanced Stats
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kOEhDtjcGd4/Utdm1EIBj4I/AAAAAAAACjs/42LXTM5yvlo/s1600/3.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LcC8C9jk2_g/Utdm1AYoq2I/AAAAAAAACjw/PQEUqwLkPx8/s1600/4.jpg

[Round Mound]

Yeah

Duncan is so far ahead of everyone else on the court...

Playoffs - Advanced Stats
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kOEhDtjcGd4/Utdm1EIBj4I/AAAAAAAACjs/42LXTM5yvlo/s1600/3.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LcC8C9jk2_g/Utdm1AYoq2I/AAAAAAAACjw/PQEUqwLkPx8/s1600/4.jpg

[B]Now Give Barkley Duncan

[Harison]

Garnett's impact on the Celtics is undeniable. BUT... he wasn't alone. Remember, Tom Thibodeau arrived that same offseason. And you have to mention him if we're trying to add context into a deeper discussion.

TOGETHER... they helped to change the culture in Boston. Defense became a priority. I don't mean to dismiss Garnett's contributions. But, just a few months earlier, with Garnett on the Wolves, the team's defensive rating was 21st in the L.

You bring up a valid point - one player cant do it alone, he needs some pieces to work with, i.e. good coach, some decent defenders on the team too. Like KG couldnt make Wolves elite on D just by himself.

But speaking of Thibodeau, Celtics defense was terrible after KG went down with injury, and Thibs couldnt do anything to fix it, why is that if Celtics were suppose to be good defensively without KG?

After KG returned and Thibodeau was gone, Celtics returned to the same elite level defensively as pre-injury. Most of the roster changed, Thibs gone, yet defense was elite nonetheless, who do we contribute to, primarily? KG. He didnt do it alone, but he was the anchor holding elite D together. No him on court - Celtics were allowing 33 points more. I'm not sure if any other player in history showed such defensive impact.

[Harison]

LOL, you're lecturing him on misleading by misusing stats and yet you think comparing KG's 01-04 to TD's 01-07 is comparing apples to apples. Don't you think it's harder to maintain high stats over a longer period of time?

Actually superstars of such caliber maintains their level of play throughout their primes with little deviation.

Funny how it works, you and other Duncan's fans have no problem comparing non-prime Garnett numbers with prime Duncan's, but have a problem with prime vs prime comparison.



And in your next post, you compare KG and TD using data from 03-04 to 10-11 (https://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/howard-is-the-dpoy-but-hes-no-garnett/), leaving out PRIME and PEAK Duncan years when he won 2 rings, 2 FMVPs, 2 MVPs. So the years when he got 5 All-Defensive 1st teams and 1 All-Defensive 2nd team aren't included. Why not instead look at the entirety of their careers and not cherry-pick years that favor one over the other. And yes, I know, you're not the one who wrote the article and picked those years, but don't paint half a picture and then declare KG "the most impactful defender of the decade" based on certain years.

We were done with this already, there is no advanced defense data of earlier years, therefore blaming me for "leaving out" something is ridiculous, use some sense.

Whats not to understand about it? You couldnt before, maybe you will understand now? If you have data of earlier years which even NBA doesnt have - you are most welcome to provide it, if not - we use available data.

Plus Duncan's prime was suppose to last longer than Garnett's, so this data should be favorable to Duncan, isnt it? Yet it isnt, so maybe, just maybe, this earlier data would have cemented KG's impact even more, ever thought about that?

Nobody is questioning TD elite level of D, but you also have to understand accolades are also based on the team, i.e. if team is great at D by itself (DRob, Bowen, Pop in charge, etc), then the leader of the team (TD), will get the most recognition for it. Thats how MVP voting works too.

[kshutts1]

Nah, he definitely is. Throughout every basketball forum I've been on including this one the overwhelming majority recognize Duncan as the best power foward of all time. In fact the majority of the people who don't recognize it, are the group of people who belive he's a center.

The word consensus doesn't mean every single person buys into it. But the majority of people agree with it.

That's a fair point, to be sure. I would argue the "....believe he's a center..." comment, but that's neither here nor there, and this thread is an incredibly small sample size.

And I don't know how to double-quote, so just gotta say that the Jordan analogy is spot on, but only to a point. The major difference is that saying Jordan's not the GOAT (also a belief of mine) generates some very negative backlash, whereas saying Duncan is not the GOAT PF opens up conversation more than backlash. Basically... Jordan's "GOAT status" is more strongly believed/defended.

[Purch]

That's a fair point, to be sure. I would argue the "....believe he's a center..." comment, but that's neither here nor there, and this thread is an incredibly small sample size.

And I don't know how to double-quote, so just gotta say that the Jordan analogy is spot on, but only to a point. The major difference is that saying Jordan's not the GOAT (also a belief of mine) generates some very negative backlash, whereas saying Duncan is not the GOAT PF opens up conversation more than backlash. Basically... Jordan's "GOAT status" is more strongly believed/defended.
Well yea, but Jordan's Goat status has been established for nearly two decades now, and has been reinforced for nearly two decades. So it seems crazy when people question it. What you have to remember, is that Duncan only really started to get labeled as the greatest power foward, after his 05 ring, and he hasn't even retired yet. So the consensus that Duncan is the greatest powerfoward is realitively new, compared to years Jordan has under his goat status. The fact that Duncan is considered by the vast majority as the greatest of of all time whiles hes still active ,actually does remind me a lot of how people started to label Mj the goat after his first three peat

[kshutts1]

Well yea, but Jordan's Goat status has been established for nearly two decades now, and has been reinforced for nearly two decades. So it seems crazy when people question it. What you have to remember, is that Duncan only really started to get labeled as the greatest power foward, after his 05 ring, and he hasn't even retired yet. So the consensus that Duncan is the greatest powerfoward is realitively new, compared to years Jordan has under his goat status. The fact that Duncan is considered by the vast majority as the greatest of of all time whiles hes still active ,actually does remind me a lot of how people started to label Mj the goat after his first three peat
No need to argue technicalities, but it has never been established, and I'd choose the word "perpetuated" over "reinforced". The media force-feeds the "knowledge" that MJ is "indisputably" the GOAT. From the age of 8+ every single NBA fan is told that MJ is GOAT. No one is "allowed" to make their own opinion.

Sorry, that was a bitter rant. Doesn't really have a place in this discussion.

[Purch]

No need to argue technicalities, but it has never been established, and I'd choose the word "perpetuated" over "reinforced". The media force-feeds the "knowledge" that MJ is "indisputably" the GOAT. From the age of 8+ every single NBA fan is told that MJ is GOAT. No one is "allowed" to make their own opinion.

Sorry, that was a bitter rant. Doesn't really have a place in this discussion.
o I do agree that the media reinforcement was a huge advantage Jordan had over Kareem, Russell, wilt, magic and bird. The league wanted to market him as the goat. Timmy will never be marketed in that way, but fans nonetheless seem to have accepted him as the goat. A lot of it from my observations , is the fact that when other power forwards are compared to Timmy, it appears that they underachieved. (Fair or not) In that regard, without the media pushing Jordan as the goat, I believe that debate would actually be significantly closer than the power foward debate.

When I look at

Duncan
Barkley
Dirk
Malone
Garnett

I see 5 players with similar levels of impact on the court, with one vastly outpacing the others in terms of accomplishments.

When I look at

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Bird

I see similar levels of impact on the court, but with similar levels of accomplishments, and in some cases more accomplishments than Jordan.

[Big#50]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Now Give Barkley Duncan

[Purch]

LOL Charles played no D. Couldn't pass. He didn't make others better. GTFOH
Charles was actually an excellent passer. Probally second to only Kg in this debate. At his peak he was averaging 5 assist a game as well

[Big#50]

Charles was actually an excellent passer. Probally second to only Kg in this debate. At his peak he was averaging 5 assist a game as well
NO way. Assist numbers do not equal good passer.

[Purch]

NO way. Assist numbers do not equal good passer.
I said as well, just in case you wanted a number. Barkley was an excellent passer, there's nothing from his game footage that suggest otherwise

[Big#50]

I said as well, just in case you wanted a number. Barkley was an excellent passer, there's nothing from his game footage that suggest otherwise
I must have seen about 100 Barkley games in my life. Not once did I say he is a hell of a passer. No way. KG as well. He just had the ball all the time.

[Y2ktors]

I said as well, just in case you wanted a number. Barkley was an excellent passer, there's nothing from his game footage that suggest otherwise

Indeed he was an Excellent passer.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I very much doubt that Pop was considered one of the best coaches ever in 02-03 (having won only 1 championship).

What great defensive pieces? Bowen - okay, Duncan - okay. DRob was 38 years old with a bad back and only played 23 minutes/game. Maybe the great defensive pieces were Parker, SJax, Manu, Steve Kerr, Steve Smith, Malik Rose, Speedy, Danny Ferry?

As far as the salary/team mates discussion, KG signed THREE contracts with MIN when it was clear that they weren't surrounding him with pieces to win. I have no problem with him choosing money, but it was HIS CHOICE and the lack of/quality of team mates shouldn't be used as an excuse for why he didn't do better or win more. He could have left and gone somewhere for a better chance to win. I'd guess that KG considers his $90,663,243 more in salary than TD well worth the difference in their number of rings.



I get alarmed when I read posts like this. And we're seeing more and more of them. As much as guys like James are ripped for "teaming" up... apparently, we as fans have grown to appreciate the concept.

After all, I've seen more people ripping Garnett for "showing loyalty for the team that drafted him, nurtured him, supported him and the fans who cheered for him."

Slippery slope fellas. I understand it's easy to dismiss it when it's a name on a computer screen. It's easy to say he should have left and gone for the money. What if it was a player who played in your hometown, or for your favorite team.

You're a fan... possibly for one of the worst run franchises in sports history. Yet, a player actually shows loyalty and says things like "I want to do what I can to reward you for paying to see me... I want to win HERE."

Should that player be ripped for NOT taking the easy way out.

Dicey, dicey...

[AbeVigodaLive]

I'm sorry, I should have made myself clearer: I'm talking about the '04 Playoffs, and yes, a 32-year-old Spreewell and a 34-year-old Cassell outperformed a 20-year-old Tony Parker and 22-year-old Stephen Jackson, our second and third best players.

But yes...Cassell was injured in the LA series and he stunk.



I believe that guy was trolling. Because it's difficult to have more inaccuracies in such a short post.

You caught the ages part.

Troy Hudson didn't even play. He was injured too. The Wolves signed Darrick Martin to a 10-day contract and ending up keeping him. He shot 29% in the regular season. 27% in the playoffs. Yet, they started him in the WCF.

Fred Hoiberg, three point specialist, ran some point. As did Garnett... to middling success.

[AbeVigodaLive]

NO way. Assist numbers do not equal good passer.


Hmmm... do good assists AND stuff like this prove he could pass a bit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsBh1aenBw0

[BlackWhiteGreen]

This must be one of the most civil threads in ISH history :oldlol:

Anyway, he's somewhere between 2-4 with Malone and McHale for me, assuming TD is a PF.

[veilside23]

I believe that guy was trolling. Because it's difficult to have more inaccuracies in such a short post.

You caught the ages part.

Troy Hudson didn't even play. He was injured too. The Wolves signed Darrick Martin to a 10-day contract and ending up keeping him. He shot 29% in the regular season. 27% in the playoffs. Yet, they started him in the WCF.

Fred Hoiberg, three point specialist, ran some point. As did Garnett... to middling success.

troll who u?

Fred hoiberg a three point specialist yes you are right but he is not like even a bruce bowen kind of player .tehn manu was there as well
i will respond to his post and you can see clearly..

[veilside23]

I'm sorry, I should have made myself clearer: I'm talking about the '04 Playoffs, and yes, a 32-year-old Spreewell and a 34-year-old Cassell outperformed a 20-year-old Tony Parker and 22-year-old Stephen Jackson, our second and third best players.

But yes...Cassell was injured in the LA series and he stunk.


excuses ??
TP regular season
14 pts 5 assts 3 reb

playoffs
18 pts 7 assists

and no stephen jackson was not in SA 2003- 2004 .. nice try you clearly know what you are talking about

and to the one who said fred hoiberg is a 3 pt specialist .. yes he is the better than manu :facepalm

[Round Mound]

:roll: :facepalm :no: At Barkley Not Being a Good Passer. He Was Easily Skillwise The Best Passing PF Ever and One Of The Best Passers Off The Post Ever.

[veilside23]

:roll: :facepalm :no: At Barkley Not Being a Good Passer. He Was Easily Skillwise The Best Passing PF Ever and One Of The Best Passers Off The Post Ever.


he is one of the best but not the best ever please :)

[Round Mound]

he is one of the best but not the best ever please :)

[B]He Is Easily The Best Passing Powerforward Ever. Watch More Games of Him In His Prime and You

[veilside23]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]He Is Easily The Best Passing Powerforward Ever. Watch More Games of Him In His Prime and You

[Round Mound]

NO!

Watch Prime Barkley Games...

[Pointguard]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]He Is Easily The Best Passing Powerforward Ever. Watch More Games of Him In His Prime and You

[Round Mound]

Barkley wasn't the best passing power forward because he was a moody passer and very inconsistent with his passing. It was totally dependent on his scoring mood. He was the flashiest passer sure but I wouldn't say he could be depended upon to make the best pass or the right one. Barkley was a very up and down player.

KG could consistently get 5 and more assist per game for six years straight with a majority of them with garbage shooters and finishers. Barkley only got more than 4 assist per game in successive seasons once (actually 3 years in a row). KG's assist were well integrated into his game, more prolific, and on another level of consistency.

[B]Barkley Was Among The Best Passers in the Post Ever (i have games where commentators say only Bird and Barry Where Better Among Forwards). Garnett

[Big#50]

:roll: :facepalm :no: At Barkley Not Being a Good Passer. He Was Easily Skillwise The Best Passing PF Ever and One Of The Best Passers Off The Post Ever.
WTF where do you come up with this shit??

[Pointguard]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Barkley Was Among The Best Passers in the Post Ever (i have games where commentators say only Bird and Barry Where Better Among Forwards). Garnett

[houston]

Kevin Garnett is a top 20 all-time player and he top 5 power forward of all-time. He is better than Dirk,Barkley, and Malone due to defensive and rebounding. None of them players I just name couldn't do what Garnett did on the 2008 Celtics. Garnett Boston years what really saved his legacy.


His Timberwolves years showed while he was a great player he was more of "David Robinson/Scottie Pippen" level of great. Even the year he won MVP it was really Sam Cassell team that year. Of course Kevin want people to believe he stayed with the Wolves cause of loyalty but that was the team that overpaid him to stay. Due to Garnett lightweight offensive game he was prone to dissappear in the clutch.


Garnett while seeking to team up with Kobe only accepted the Boston trade while they required Ray Allen from the Sonics.


The Celtics were close to getting Garnett before they traded for Allen. But Garnett, waiting to see whether the Timberwolves could trade him to the Los Angeles Lakers to team with Kobe Bryant, initially vetoed the deal, letting the Celtics know he would opt out of his contract next summer and go elsewhere.

"He looked at the team from afar, just like I looked at it up close, and he said, 'Wow, that's not going to be a very good team,' " Celtics coach Doc Rivers said.

But the potential trade to the Lakers fell through. And once Allen was in the fold, Garnett changed his mind.

It took a couple of weeks after the conclusion of the Las Vegas summer league in July for old friends Danny Ainge, Boston's general manager, and Kevin McHale, his counterpart in Minnesota, to make all the pieces fit. But Boston got its man, and Garnett agreed to a multiyear extension with the Celtics beginning next season.

"That was one of the big issues in me moving," Garnett said last week. "I wanted to have plenty of ammo, if you will, with me going into these next five years knowing that's how long I wanted to play. I wanted to have a team that I knew hands down was going to be competitive night in and night out."

[Round Mound]

Barkley Was Better at Garnett as a

-Scorer
-1st Option Alpha Star
-Rebounder
-Passer
-Ballhandler
-Skilled Player
-Shooter
-Post Player
-FT Shooter
-Clutch Player
-Floor Defender.

Only Thing Garnett has Over Barkley is Shot Blocking and Post D. Thats It.

[GoranDragon]

Barkley Was Better at Garnett as a

-Scorer
-1st Option Alpha Star
-Rebounder
-Passer
-Ballhandler
-Skilled Player
-Shooter
-Post Player
-FT Shooter
-Clutch Player
-Floor Defender.

Only Thing Garnett has Over Barkley is Shot Blocking and Post D. Thats It.
Garnett has a ring.:confusedshrug:

Your mancrush choked away a finals series to spoil his legacy. Now he's remembered a the fat guy on TNT.:lol

[Round Mound]

Garnett has a ring.:confusedshrug:

Your mancrush choked away a finals series to spoil his legacy. Now he's remembered a the fat guy on TNT.:lol

Bla Bla Bla RING crap again.

Garnett would have zero rings and Zero MVPs in the 80s and 90s.
Garnett was a Better 2nd Option than 1st Option. PERIOD!

[GoranDragon]

Bla Bla Bla RING crap again.

Garnett would have zero rings and Zero MVPs in the 80s and 90s.
Garnett was a Better 2nd Option than 1st Option. PERIOD!
lol using the "would" argument.

Fat chuck "would" have no MVP and less All-Star selection in the 00s and 2010s. Only remembered a the fat guy trying to be funny on TNT.:roll:

[T_L_P]

excuses ??
TP regular season
14 pts 5 assts 3 reb

playoffs
18 pts 7 assists

and no stephen jackson was not in SA 2003- 2004 .. nice try you clearly know what you are talking about

and to the one who said fred hoiberg is a 3 pt specialist .. yes he is the better than manu :facepalm

I'm talking about 02-03 here, buddy.

I'm using 03-04 for KG because that's like the only time he made it past the first round in Minny.

In 02-03, Parker put up 15/3/4 in the Playoffs.

And Jackson was our second best player that postseason.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Barkley Was Better at Garnett as a

-Scorer
-1st Option Alpha Star
-Rebounder
-Passer
-Ballhandler
-Skilled Player
-Shooter
-Post Player
-FT Shooter
-Clutch Player
-Floor Defender.

Only Thing Garnett has Over Barkley is Shot Blocking and Post D. Thats It.

"All Garnett has over Barkley is defense, which is half the game, and the disparity is much larger" is basically what you're saying.

[Round Mound]

lol using the "would" argument.

Fat chuck "would" have no MVP and less All-Star selection in the 00s and 2010s. Only remembered a the fat guy trying to be funny on TNT.:roll:

That Short and Fat Guy You See On TNT....OUTPLAYED Duncan and Garnett Head to Head ages 32-36 as 3rd Option Crippled and Overweight in Houston. :oldlol: Just Imagine What a Prime and Healthy Barkley Would Do To Them? Leave It At That!

[GoranDragon]

That Short and Fat Guy You See On TNT OUTPLAYED Duncan and Garnett ages 32-36 as 3rd Option in Houston. :oldlol:
Sorry but...no rings no talk

Your boy has NO rings, ZERO. He will be remembered a the lower trier PF of all time.

1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Garnett
4. Malone
5. Barkley

[Round Mound]

Sorry but...no rings no talk

Your boy has NO rings, ZERO. He will be remembered a the lower trier PF of all time.

1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Garnett
4. Malone
5. Barkley

[B]That

[T_L_P]

That Short and Fat Guy You See On TNT....OUTPLAYED Duncan and Garnett Head to Head ages 32-36 as 3rd Option Crippled and Overweight in Houston. :oldlol: Just Imagine What a Prime and Healthy Barkley Would Do To Them? Leave It At That!

Do you think Chuck is the greatest PF ever?

[GoranDragon]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]That

[Round Mound]

Do you think Chuck is the greatest PF ever?

Prime Chuck, Yes.

[GoranDragon]

Prime Chuck, Yes.
:lol :oldlol: :facepalm

[Round Mound]

:lol :oldlol: :facepalm

:confusedshrug:

[Audio One]

Sorry but...no rings no talk

Your boy has NO rings, ZERO. He will be remembered a the lower trier PF of all time.

1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Garnett
4. Malone
5. Barkley

Raking players by rings, boy this is fun, can I play?

Here it goes:

Pau Gasol > Patrick Ewing

[Round Mound]

Raking players by rings, boy this is fun, can I play?

Here it goes:

Pau Gasol > Patrick Ewing

:applause: Oh Yea...Bill Russel Was Better Than Wilt, Kareem and Michael Jordan Right?

[Purch]

Kevin Garnett is a top 20 all-time player and he top 5 power forward of all-time. He is better than Dirk,Barkley, and Malone due to defensive and rebounding. None of them players I just name couldn't do what Garnett did on the 2008 Celtics.
Thats a weird argument to make. Can't you just as easily say that Garnett could do what Dirk did on the 2011 mavs?

Or even take it further and say what Dirk did on the 2011 mavs was more impressive than what Garnett did on the 08 celtics

[AbeVigodaLive]

troll who u?

Fred hoiberg a three point specialist yes you are right but he is not like even a bruce bowen kind of player .tehn manu was there as well
i will respond to his post and you can see clearly..



The point was that Fred Hoiberg and Kevin Garnett were asked to play out of their natural positions and comfort zones and play PG because Darrick Martin was so terrible.

I don't know why you mention Bruce Bowen.

Pooh Richardson! Greg Kite! Yinka Dare!!! See, I can throw out random players names that have nothing to do with the discussion, too.

[houston]

Thats a weird argument to make. Can't you just as easily say that Garnett could do what Dirk did on the 2011 mavs?

Or even take it further and say what Dirk did on the 2011 mavs was more impressive than what Garnett did on the 08 celtics


You gotta remember Kevin Garnett was the defensive anchor for that squad. He DPOY plus All-NBA first team. Dirk did his thang but what made 08 Celtics special was their defensive prowess. He change the culture of that team.


Of course how 2011 Mavs was built it benefit Dirk but KG had more responsibility on his team.

[veilside23]

I'm talking about 02-03 here, buddy.

I'm using 03-04 for KG because that's like the only time he made it past the first round in Minny.

In 02-03, Parker put up 15/3/4 in the Playoffs.

And Jackson was our second best player that postseason.


are you serious 02 03 no this is what you posted now you are trying to say another topic.. i mentioned 2003-2004 kg is the best peak for any pf ...


Originally Posted by T_L_P
I'm sorry, I should have made myself clearer: I'm talking about the '04 Playoffs, and yes, a 32-year-old Spreewell and a 34-year-old Cassell outperformed a 20-year-old Tony Parker and 22-year-old Stephen Jackson, our second and third best players.

But yes...Cassell was injured in the LA series and he stunk.

[T_L_P]

are you serious 02 03 no this is what you posted now you are trying to say another topic.. i mentioned 2003-2004 kg is the best peak for any pf ...

Your original post was about Duncan playing with great players (Robinson, Parker, Manu).

Here's what I said:

"None of which played like Hall of Famers from '00-'05 [referring to the 'Hall of Famers' you mentioned].

Latrell, and arguably Casell, played better than any of Duncan's teammates in the '03 Playoffs, yet Duncan still got them the ship."

--

I was saying Duncan managed to take a weak, weak team to a ship in '03, but KG couldn't, with arguably more help than Duncan, in '04.

[veilside23]

The point was that Fred Hoiberg and Kevin Garnett were asked to play out of their natural positions and comfort zones and play PG because Darrick Martin was so terrible.

I don't know why you mention Bruce Bowen.

Pooh Richardson! Greg Kite! Yinka Dare!!! See, I can throw out random players names that have nothing to do with the discussion, too.


well if you only took time to read what i posted then u would know why
TLP said that casell and Latrell >>>> manu and he even mentioned sjack that he was in the spurs that year.... which is he is wrong because sjack was not a spurs player that year.. and he said TP didnt perform well when TP upped his scoring 5 ppg and assist to 7 per game ...

oh well reading is 1 thing comprehension is another... i brought up bruce bowen because i called me a throll i am just saying that he maybe a 3 pt specialist but he is not better than bruce ....

:rolleyes:

[T_L_P]

well if you only took time to read what i posted then u would know why
TLP said that casell and Latrell >>>> manu and he even mentioned sjack that he was in the spurs that year.... which is he is wrong because sjack was not a spurs player that year.. and he said TP didnt perform well when TP upped his scoring 5 ppg and assist to 7 per game ...

oh well reading is 1 thing comprehension is another... i brought up bruce bowen because i called me a throll i am just saying that he maybe a 3 pt specialist but he is not better than bruce ....

:rolleyes:

Look above.

[veilside23]

Your original post was about Duncan playing with great players (Robinson, Parker, Manu).

Here's what I said:

"None of which played like Hall of Famers from '00-'05 [referring to the 'Hall of Famers' you mentioned].

Latrell, and arguably Casell, played better than any of Duncan's teammates in the '03 Playoffs, yet Duncan still got them the ship."

--

I was saying Duncan managed to take a weak, weak team to a ship in '03, but KG couldn't, with arguably more help than Duncan, in '04.

:wtf: duncan had a weak team ? Holy crap

a freaking 37 year old drob is still better than rasho , candy man , johnson ...

then you claim his team is weak when that was the best years of m rose and the reason why sjack left after they won because of $$$$$
and then they had bench players as
speed claxton manu steve smith and malik rose..

you compare that to the bench kg had in troy hudson derrick martin and hoiberg... casell and spree may have performed better but they got injured in the WCF. how can you win when your bench is playing as starting 5

This is what they're line up was

hudson martin
trenton hassell
wally Szczerbiak/ hoiberg
KG
johnson

:no:

even if we put duncan there against shaq in LA

you think he would win ? seriously

[veilside23]

Look above.
no i rest my case.. you said duncan carried a weak team to win their ring in 03.. :applause:

[T_L_P]

no i rest my case.. you said duncan carried a weak team to win their ring in 03.. :applause:

Which he did. Everyone knows it.

You're the one who said Duncan won a ring in '03 with Hall of Fame players, until you were proved otherwise :applause:

[veilside23]

Which he did. Everyone knows it.

You're the one who said Duncan won a ring in '03 with Hall of Fame players, until you were proved otherwise :applause:
you were the one who said he didnt play with hall of famers in 2000 to 2005 so drob is not :no:

my point was duncan all his life played with great players and hall of famers . KG only had an unwanted spree and a shell of sam casell.. i know its not duncan's fault but after KG left minny have they been to playoffs :rolleyes: no right

if you think duncan's cast in 03 is weak then kg had all star team mates in wolves then really you win... i would trade a prime rasho ervin johnson to a 37 year old drob and 40 year old willis in a heartbeat

and you left the 1999 season .. why?

[Artillery]

Garnett was a Better 2nd Option than 1st Option. PERIOD!

troof bomb :applause:

[SexSymbol]

:applause: Oh Yea...Bill Russel Was Better Than Wilt, Kareem and Michael Jordan Right?
Yes.

[fefe]

I think KG has a strong case for #1 PF all time.

It's clearly between him and Duncan, but you can maka a case for Timmy being a center.

Barkley, Malone and Dirk are all great offensive players, but they are not world class defenders like Duncan and Garnett.

Duncan will usually get the nod because of his 4 rings, but he did indeed play most of his career at the 5 spot, and has always been a tipical post up player while KG has played all positions 1 through 5, while still being a prototypical PF.

[D.J.]

All-time, somewhere in the 20s. Power forwards, 4th. Duncan-Barkley-Malone-KG.

[D.J.]

Barkley, Malone and Dirk are all great offensive players, but they are not world class defenders like Duncan and Garnett.


Garnett was not a world class defender. He was a solid defender and certainly a versatile one. But he was not even close to a Duncan or a Mourning.

[Legends66NBA7]

In most cases, I'd want KG as that piece in the championship puzzle due to portability/versatility/defensive mobility.

The only case I look at is what actually happened. Duncan is the choice here.

[fefe]

Garnett was not a world class defender. He was a solid defender and certainly a versatile one. But he was not even close to a Duncan or a Mourning.

Not true. He was not the shotblocker those guys were, but he was every bit the defender.

Those guys are centers. thes protect the paint.
Garnett gould defend and stop any player. Even pointguards.
He was an elite defender.

[Bob Dole]

All-time, somewhere in the 20s. Power forwards, 4th. Duncan-Barkley-Malone-KG.

This guy knows his basketball.:bowdown:

[D.J.]

Not true. He was not the shotblocker those guys were, but he was every bit the defender.

Those guys are centers. thes protect the paint.
Garnett gould defend and stop any player. Even pointguards.
He was an elite defender.


Wrong. He was not even close to the defender Mourning and Duncan were. Versatility =/= elite. LeBron James can do a lot of things, but just because man D is one of them doesn't mean he's elite at it.

[Pointguard]

Wrong. He was not even close to the defender Mourning and Duncan were. Versatility =/= elite. LeBron James can do a lot of things, but just because man D is one of them doesn't mean he's elite at it.

KG is in the argument of being the best team defender ever. He anchored one of the best defensive teams ever. KG being a much better communicator than Duncan or Morning was able to defend the paint which is much better than being a rim protector which is a more flawed concept. Duncan and Mourning have tons of videos of them being dunked on because protection at the rim is way more riskier than keeping somebody outside of the paint.

[Audio One]

Yes.

I agree as well, however the bigger picture, and point, is that said poster needs to remain consistent in their arguments, and not pick and choose which perspectives fit their agenda

[Aussie Dunker]

I have him 2nd behind Duncan.

Has a ring,
MVP,
Numerous all NBA first teams,
Pretty much every single Wolves all-time records...

But the thing that has him above Dirk, Malone, Charles,

DPOY + 9 all D first teams + 3 all D second teams.

Basketball is a two way sport ladies and gentleman, so when I rank my top overall PF's, it is hard to rank anyone not named Duncan over KG...

If Dirk can continue his current form up for 2 or 3 more years, then it might be hard to ignore his body of work especially if he can get over that 30,000 point mark (which he would have to average roughly 17 points over the next 3 seasons)

[bizil]

Now I'm hearing from some that KG wasn't a great defender at his peak. I think Duncan skewed the way we view PF's. Duncan for all intensive purposes had a dominant GOAT center's skillset. But he had the luxury to play alongside an HOF big in D Rob. And later he was paired with other 7 footers, but they were average players. But when u have a DeJuan Blair or Bonner starting alongside Timmy, he's clearly the center. I don't care what the hell the lineup card on TV says. And even when he was paired with other 7 footers, Duncan was the dominant paint protector and rebounder. But Timmy WAS SICK! So sure he was very versatile and could play the PF spot easily. At PF, he's the GOAT. If he was a center, he's a top 5 caliber GOAT center.

With that said, most of the GOAT PF's were more true PF's. They weren't expected to be a paint protector. But most of them were amongst the best rebounders in the world with the exception of Dirk. And guys like KG, Dave D, and Rodman were among the GOAT defenders of all time FLAT OUT!! Just because they weren't paint protectors u can't penalize them at PF. When u list most versatile defenders of all time the list is short as hell. And my top four guys are KG, Rodman, Pippen, and Lebron. All world class defenders at their natural positions. And come the closest out of ANYBODY in being able to defend all five positions. KG EASILY qualifies as an epic defender!! And KG is the best two way PF of all time in my book. Narrowly over Duncan. But I wouldn't argue one taking Duncan over KG on defense.

[veilside23]

Wrong. He was not even close to the defender Mourning and Duncan were. Versatility =/= elite. LeBron James can do a lot of things, but just because man D is one of them doesn't mean he's elite at it.


funy that your defense is all about protecting the rim if that is your case then camby is better than duncan? because he blocked more shots :rolleyes:


defense comes along way than blocking shots ..

[bizil]

KG is in the argument of being the best team defender ever. He anchored one of the best defensive teams ever. KG being a much better communicator than Duncan or Morning was able to defend the paint which is much better than being a rim protector which is a more flawed concept. Duncan and Mourning have tons of videos of them being dunked on because protection at the rim is way more riskier than keeping somebody outside of the paint.

Right on the money!! I will take KG's versatility, communication, and leadership on defense over Duncan's paint protection. And let's face it, paint protecting PF's weren't really mentioned until Duncan came around. Or hell maybe when Ralph Sampson was around. Cause those two had Center size. When I think of what I want from my PF's, I of course want great D. But I don't usually list great paint protection like a center. Sure it's a great bonus, but not really something I have to have. KG was a natural PF who was the ultimate swiss army knife. Hell came in the L as a SF. Duncan has a center skillset, but is very versatile and also has the versatility and skillset of the great PF's in many ways. Both KG and Duncan redefined the PF spot. I won't argue if one takes Duncan over KG on D. But those that say KG isn't an all time great defender is smoking that ULTIMATE GOOD GREEN! :pimp: