Is Manu Ginobli the 3rd best OG of the last 20 years?

[westsideozzie]

The only cats I think you can say were better are Wade and Bryant. His resume rivals those two and exceeds everyone else. What say you on the matter?

[JohnFreeman]

The only cats I think you can say were better are Wade and Bryant. His resume rivals those two and exceeds everyone else. What say you on the matter?

Allen?

[westsideozzie]

Allen?


I'd take Manu Ginobli over Ray Allen seven days a week, 12 months out of the year.

[Wiggins23]

what?

[JohnFreeman]

I'd take Manu Ginobli over Ray Allen seven days a week, 12 months out of the year.

I wouldn't, but it depends what you want out of your SG. Manu stunk it up in the finals as well

[Breezy]

T-Mac?

[winnnaz]

Iverson

/thread

[alexd]

I'd take Manu Ginobli over Ray Allen seven days a week, 12 months out of the year.
i guess you have only seen Allen in Boston and Miami

[KobesFinger]

Allen, T-Mac and Iverson were all better, VC was arguable too. He has longevity over them all except Allen who is equal IMO. The thing about Ginobili is that he was never the Spurs' first option which makes it hard to debate his place.

[sportjames23]

OG = Off Guard, right?

And the last 20 years would be from 1994 until now. I seem to recall this dude that played in Chicago back then.

So, if you include him, and say Kobe and Wade are better than Manu, then no, Manu is no the 3rd best OG of the last 20 years.

[ImKobe]

Allen, T-Mac and Iverson were all better, VC was arguable too. He has longevity over them all except Allen who is equal IMO. The thing about Ginobili is that he was never the Spurs' first option which makes it hard to debate his place.

VC arguable? He was a damn superstar. Averaged 25 5 4 on 46/38/79 over his prime years...He just didn't have great teams.

And no one has mentioned Drexler yet? :coleman:

And duh, MJ!

[westsideozzie]

I wouldn't, but it depends what you want out of your SG. Manu stunk it up in the finals as well


Ray Allen cant create his own shot and is a liability on defense.

[Nick Young]

The only cats I think you can say were better are Wade and Bryant. His resume rivals those two and exceeds everyone else. What say you on the matter?
yes. anyone who says no is a racist/idiot.

[JohnFreeman]

Big O?

[westsideozzie]

Of course I'm discounting Jordan. I really mean the Kobe Bryant Era. Vince Carter has no hardware and Mcgrady to me was really a SF. People forget how good Ginobli was from 2003-2008.

[SexSymbol]

20 years? Then Jordan's in there.

Iverson easily over him, Tracy has a case, VC probaly has one too.
Ray Allen is probably another one I'd take over him, but the list is not so long as I originally thought it would be

[I<3NBA]

no. Kobe is.

MJ
Wade
Kobe

[Nick Young]

20 years? Then Jordan's in there.

Iverson easily over him, Tracy has a case, VC probaly has one too.
Ray Allen is probably another one I'd take over him, but the list is not so long as I originally thought it would be
How is AI the human CAnswew better then Ginobili? All he did was chuck at 40% his whole career while playing Steve Nash like defense.

He only got to the finals BECAUSE THE BUCKS-SIXERS SERIES WAS THE MOST RIGGED NBA SERIES IN HISTORY.

Seriously, no one talks about it because they didnt watch but if you go back and watch those games you wont believe how much Stern forced the sixers into the finals. It was shameless. AI's legacy is based on that finals run, and IMO the finals run deserves an asterix based on the rigged bucks series.

Also AIs only been to the finals. MANU WON IT 3 TIMES.

How is 3 peak years win-nothing VC ahead of him? How is second round virgin until last year better then Manu who played a key part on 3 title winning teams as the primary offensive playmaker?

[Fire Colangelo]

Ray Allen cant create his own shot and is a liability on defense.

wow lol obviously never seen ray allen play for the bucks/sonics.

[JohnFreeman]

Ray Allen cant create his own shot and is a liability on defense.

Wut

[westsideozzie]

Manu is the best "GUARD" behind Wade and Bryant in the last 15 years. He can be a playmaking point or he can get you 30 or 40 if you need him too. Ray Allen aint running nobodys show. I think he is vastly underrated.

[alexd]

Manu is the best "GUARD" behind Wade and Bryant in the last 15 years. He can be a playmaking point or he can get you 30 or 40 if you need him too. Ray Allen aint running nobodys show. I think he is vastly underrated.
i m pretty sure you think ray allen can only shoot 3 pointers :facepalm :facepalm

[alexd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SofxkO-E7pY

[westsideozzie]

i m pretty sure you think ray allen can only shoot 3 pointers :facepalm :facepalm


Besides 3's and ft's which Manu is no slouch, anything Ray can do, Manu does better.

[T_L_P]

Of course I'm discounting Jordan. I really mean the Kobe Bryant Era. Vince Carter has no hardware and Mcgrady to me was really a SF. People forget how good Ginobli was from 2003-2008.


He didn't really become 'good' until at least 2005 if you ask me

[SexSymbol]

How is AI the human CAnswew better then Ginobili? All he did was chuck at 40% his whole career while playing Steve Nash like defense.

He only got to the finals BECAUSE THE BUCKS-SIXERS SERIES WAS THE MOST RIGGED NBA SERIES IN HISTORY.

Seriously, no one talks about it because they didnt watch but if you go back and watch those games you wont believe how much Stern forced the sixers into the finals. It was shameless. AI's legacy is based on that finals run, and IMO the finals run deserves an asterix based on the rigged bucks series.

Also AIs only been to the finals. MANU WON IT 3 TIMES.

How is 3 peak years win-nothing VC ahead of him? How is second round virgin until last year better then Manu who played a key part on 3 title winning teams as the primary offensive playmaker?

AI is what Kobe would've been if he hadn't grown up in Italy and was 6 inches smaller.
AI still has the heart of a champion, one of the biggest wills to win, never give up mentality, that's what you want in your superstar. Ginobili often seems like he's disinterested in the game lol, and not to mention that he layed and egg in the nba finals last year. If not for him it would have ended in 5 or 6

[Fire Colangelo]

Manu is the best "GUARD" behind Wade and Bryant in the last 15 years. He can be a playmaking point or he can get you 30 or 40 if you need him too. Ray Allen aint running nobodys show. I think he is vastly underrated.

And Allen couldn't drop 30, 40, 50? What's Manu better than Allen at besides playmaking which is debatable? For every good play Manu made he made a stupid turnover to go with it (see 2013 finals), while Ray was probably one of the cluthest to play the game.

Allen ain't running nobody's show? :oldlol:

[AintNoSunshine]

:roll: Ginobili remains as THE MOST OVERRATED player of all time.

Has never been the leader of a team, has never average even just 20ppg. Has no accolade to speak of besides some rings he won by being the 3rd option to a team that probably would do just as well if not better if replaced him with a ton of other SG.

Ginobili isn't even rated, let alone 3rd best of the last 20 years.

[Just2McFly]

:roll: Ginobili remains as THE MOST OVERRATED player of all time.

Has never been the leader of a team, has never average even just 20ppg. Has no accolade to speak of besides some rings he won by being the 3rd option to a team that probably would do just as well if not better if replaced him with a ton of other SG.

Ginobili isn't even rated, let alone 3rd best of the last 20 years.

He certainly does get overrated by a few.

[Fire Colangelo]

:roll: Ginobili remains as THE MOST OVERRATED player of all time.

Has never been the leader of a team, has never average even just 20ppg. Has no accolade to speak of besides some rings he won by being the 3rd option to a team that probably would do just as well if not better if replaced him with a ton of other SG.

Ginobili isn't even rated, let alone 3rd best of the last 20 years.

To be fair, he is in the conversation for top 5 sg for the last decade. I have him at 6 with Kobe, Wade, Iverson, Allen and Carter ahead of him.

[AintNoSunshine]

To be fair, he is in the conversation for top 5. I have him at 6 with Kobe, Wade, Iverson, Allen and Carter ahead of him.

How can you say that if you have never seen him as a team's best player whereas these other guys all have.

Are you basing your ranking upon imagination???

[Fire Colangelo]

How can you say that if you have never seen him as a team's best player whereas these other guys all have.

Are you basing your ranking upon imagination???

Can you name another SG that's better during the last decade?

EDIT: I meant the last decade on my previous post.

[freshperry]

:roll: Ginobili remains as THE MOST OVERRATED player of all time.

Has never been the leader of a team, has never average even just 20ppg. Has no accolade to speak of besides some rings he won by being the 3rd option to a team that probably would do just as well if not better if replaced him with a ton of other SG.

Ginobili isn't even rated, let alone 3rd best of the last 20 years.

He has a 6th man of the year award that goes with the 3 championships.( So thats an accolade) Also, yes Ginobili was the 3rd option but he played arguably better then Harden did during the OKC finals run (excluding the finals series against Heat where harden just flat out disappeared....)

[westsideozzie]

:roll: Ginobili remains as THE MOST OVERRATED player of all time.

Has never been the leader of a team, has never average even just 20ppg. Has no accolade to speak of besides some rings he won by being the 3rd option to a team that probably would do just as well if not better if replaced him with a ton of other SG.

Ginobili isn't even rated, let alone 3rd best of the last 20 years.

He was the leader and best player of an Argetinina team that beat the brakes off the US for a gold medal. Yall in a coma over Manu.

[AintNoSunshine]

Can you name another SG that's better during the last decade?

EDIT: I meant the last decade on my previous post.

Pretty much everyone who's been a first option. Ginobili has never been in that situation so you don't even know how he would have fair.

Ginobili thrived playing his role, that is with the greatest PF in Duncan taking away attention, MVP candidate Parker taking away attention, under the greatest coach in the league, and a whole bunch of other great role players.

That does not mean he's a better player than the other guys who is the focus of the opponent's defense night in and night out.

[JohnFreeman]

Pretty much everyone who's been a first option. Ginobili has never been in that situation so you don't even know how he would have fair.

Ginobili thrived playing his role, that is with the greatest PF in Duncan taking away attention, MVP candidate Parker taking away attention, under the greatest coach in the league, and a whole bunch of other great role players.

That does not mean he's a better player than the other guys who is the focus of the opponent's defense night in and night out.

This. There is massive drop off after Jordan, Kobe and Wade

[AintNoSunshine]

He was the leader and best player of an Argetinina team that beat the brakes off the US for a gold medal. Yall in a coma over Manu.


That's cool and all but pretty sure we're discuss NBA

[Fire Colangelo]

He was the leader and best player of an Argetinina team that beat the brakes off the US for a gold medal. Yall in a coma over Manu.

it was 1 game.

the 72-10 bulls lost the the 21-61 raptors, the best team doesn't always win **** happens.

[SCdac]

:roll: Ginobili remains as THE MOST OVERRATED player of all time.

Has never been the leader of a team, has never average even just 20ppg. Has no accolade to speak of besides some rings he won by being the 3rd option to a team that probably would do just as well if not better if replaced him with a ton of other SG.

Ginobili isn't even rated, let alone 3rd best of the last 20 years.

Ginobili became a full fledged All Star and 2nd option before Parker did, I don't know where this notion that he was "always a third option" came from. If anything, your post goes to show how underrated he is. Ginobili lead the Spurs with 19.5 ppg in his best scoring season, ahead of both Duncan and Parker, yet because of that 0.5 points he just shouldn't be taken seriously right?

[Fire Colangelo]

Pretty much everyone who's been a first option. Ginobili has never been in that situation so you don't even know how he would have fair.

Ginobili thrived playing his role, that is with the greatest PF in Duncan taking away attention, MVP candidate Parker taking away attention, under the greatest coach in the league, and a whole bunch of other great role players.

That does not mean he's a better player than the other guys who is the focus of the opponent's defense night in and night out.

Which OTHER SG during the last decade was a first option? Michael Redd? Ginobili was actually a 2nd option for a couple years as well.

I would put Brandon Roy ahead of him but his career lasted so short it's debatable at this point.

Tmac always kinda striked me as a pointforward, but he's obviously up there too.

[ABfor3]

Some posters have never seen Ray Allen in his Sonics, Bucks days. Always been an elite shooter, but could slash and penetrate much better back then. His playmaking skills were above average at best, he took his Sonics to the playoffs with Rashard Lewis.
Vince Carter back in the early 2000s was just as big a superstar as you can be, consistent scorer, with elite slashing game. A good playmaker, and good defender for a guy who had to carry the load on offense.
I would take VC, Ray Allen, AI, and Tmac over Manu

[ImKobe]

Which OTHER SG during the last decade was a first option? Michael Redd? Ginobili was actually a 2nd option for a couple years as well.

I would put Brandon Roy ahead of him but his career lasted so short it's debatable at this point.

in the last decade


Kobe
Wade
Iverson
T-Mac
Carter
Ray Allen - Greatest Finals moment since MJ's shot against the Jazz, a very underrated player in general, most people thinks he's only a 3pt specialist
Joe Johnson - prime Joe was unstoppable, he had a season where he shot 47,8% from 3 on 4.5 attempts per game
Paul Pierce - starting SG for half of his career before Allen joined Boston
Brandon Roy - obviously a healthy Roy was the best SG after Wade and Kobe
Harden - Not enough to put him over Manu right now, but his overall numbers and leading a team to the playoffs in his first year as a #1 option plus being at the top of the West this year shows that he will have a great career, gives you 26 points and 6 assists a night.

Manu's numbers just aren't that impressive, and he had Pop & Tim Duncan for his entire career.

[Mass Debator]

The furthest I'll say is 3rd most skilled but he's outside the top 5 for best SG in the past decade.

[SCdac]

If anything, Harden shooting .44 FG% to get the Rockets to the first round (exit) last season should help Manu's case, not hurt it. Their game is so similar, no reason to think Manu couldn't merely take a team to the playoffs like Redd, Harden, Arenas, B. Gordon, Allen, Roy, etc, did. Especially had he been in the East. Personally, I think the debate comes down to Manu, Allen, and Carter. T-Mac I can understand him being rated higher.

[AintNoSunshine]

If anything, Harden shooting .44 FG% to get the Rockets to the first round (exit) last season should help Manu's case, not hurt it. Their game is so similar, no reason to think Manu couldn't merely take a team to the playoffs like Redd, Harden, Arenas, B. Gordon, Allen, Roy, etc, did. Especially had he been in the East. Personally, I think the debate comes down to Manu, Allen, and Carter. T-Mac I can understand him being rated higher.


That's where I have a problem with this debate, you're baseless and is using your imagination to envision what you think would happen while being a fan so you're biased too. You can't rank a player base on that, in the same way you can't rank someone based on "potential".

[Jailblazers7]

I think he is probably arguably 5th.

Kobe
Wade
T-Mac
Iverson

Then 5th is a discussion between Manu and Ray. I think the other SGs who could make the list either have too much of an injury history or scars on their record to be considered over those 2.

[SCdac]

That's where I have a problem with this debate, you're baseless and is using your imagination to envision what you think would happen while being a fan so you're biased too. You can't rank a player base on that, in the same way you can't rank someone based on "potential".

Eh, we're talking about somebody who's won MVP's for his national team, nearly beat Duncan in the midst of his prime for Finals MVP, has been an integral part to 3 championship teams, has at times heard "MVP" chants from the SA home crowd, and has an individually great winning-%... It's not a stretch of the imagination to assume he'd make statistical waves on his own team (lets face it, that's all anybody cares about, is stats), or lead a team to 45+ wins ala Ben Gordon or somebody... In other words, there's a clear difference between "never did it" and "couldn't do it", no?

[#number6ix#]

The fact that some of you guys think ray was just a catch and shoot player is just crazy... Ray use to be able to break any defender down off the dribble and go to rack and finish...

[Fire Colangelo]

in the last decade


Kobe
Wade
Iverson
T-Mac
Carter
Ray Allen - Greatest Finals moment since MJ's shot against the Jazz, a very underrated player in general, most people thinks he's only a 3pt specialist
Joe Johnson - prime Joe was unstoppable, he had a season where he shot 47,8% from 3 on 4.5 attempts per game
Paul Pierce - starting SG for half of his career before Allen joined Boston
Brandon Roy - obviously a healthy Roy was the best SG after Wade and Kobe
Harden - Not enough to put him over Manu right now, but his overall numbers and leading a team to the playoffs in his first year as a #1 option plus being at the top of the West this year shows that he will have a great career, gives you 26 points and 6 assists a night.

Manu's numbers just aren't that impressive, and he had Pop & Tim Duncan for his entire career.

Agreed on top 6, pierce is a SF and will be ranked as one. Joe Johnson was such an underwhelming playoffs performer, so no he's not better than Manu. Manu as a 2nd/3rd option put up identical stats as joe Johnson so clearly Johnson was not unstoppable...

Roy was a beast and my favourite player when he was healthy, but his career lasted so short it's hard for me to rank him over Manu.

[r0drig0lac]

15/4/4 at 27mpg is ridiculously absurd, if he had the same minute wade surely would have 25 ppg and almost certainly more rebounds and more assists, and that without being offensive centerpiece of your team in no time . He would have had harden numbers more efficiently if given the opportunity. If it was the third best sg of recent years? maybe? in my opinion of course, but even if they have data to support a contrary opnion I certainly would not take anyone other than kobe ​​and wade in his place.

[PsychoBe]

harden without a broke jumper

[rmt]

I'm a huge Spurs fan, but without hesitation, I'd take Ray Allen over Manu. Ray was a player who carried a franchise night in, night out, year after year. Manu is too fragile to do that - can't do it year after year. And when he gets injured, which is often, it takes him forever to get back into rhythm.

Manu has a high motor, and has to play limited minutes (27.4 mins/game). Ray averages 35.9 mins.

Ray 19.1 pts / 3.4 assts / 4.1 rebs 45.2%FG 35.9 mins 18 years
Manu 14.8 pts / 4.0 assts / 3.9 rebs 45.1% 27.4 mins 12 years.

Also, Manu plays too much with his heart instead of his head. Commits HUGE mistakes like 06 Dirk foul, barreling into 3 defenders and committing offensive foul instead of running out the clock or 8 turnovers, -21 in game 6 of NBA Finals. Allen might go into shooting slumps, but he doesn't kill his team by making STUPID mistakes.

[Lebron23]

Most Clutch Spurs since 2003. I think he's 3/10 in playoffs game winners.

[RighteousMax]

no.

[Totspurs]

MVP candidate Parker taking away attention, under the greatest coach in the league, and a whole bunch of other great role players.
:eek:

Parker wasn't even a top 30 player until '09. A good RS player, but a chucker in playoffs. He's the one who owes more to Duncan, and especially Popovich, who transformed him into the great PG, P&R maestro he is today.

[Victoire]

:eek:

Parker wasn't even a top 30 player until '09.

Nonsense. Parker was a top 10, arguably a top 5 in 2008. he was also definitely a top 15-20 in 2007. He was probably borderline 30 in 2004 to 2006.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Jordan
Kobe
West
Manu
Wade

top 5

[Lebron23]

Jordan
Kobe
West
Manu
Wade

top 5


Wade >>> Manu

1x NBA Finals MVP, 3x NBA Champion, multiple all NBA team appearances.

[r0drig0lac]

manu is so good that it's one of the only guys you can look per36 and make sure he would if he had those numbers playing time

[rmt]

manu is so good that it's one of the only guys you can look per36 and make sure he would if he had those numbers playing time

Problem is that Manu can't play his style of game and play 36 minutes like other franchise players. He gets injured a lot even WITH limited minutes (career avg 27.4 mins), much less if he were to try to play 35+ mins.

[oarabbus]

I DGAF about Manu's sh1t performance last finals, Manu Ginobili >>>>>> Ray Allen

I'd probably take Wade over Manu, tho.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db123b2UZxg

^ sick dunk

[Milbuck]

I DGAF about Manu's sh1t performance last finals, Manu Ginobili >>>>>> Ray Allen

I'd probably take Wade over Manu, tho.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db123b2UZxg

^ sick dunk

Probably? I love Manu, but he has ZERO case over Wade.

[Totspurs]

Nonsense. Parker was a top 10, arguably a top 5 in 2008. he was also definitely a top 15-20 in 2007. He was probably borderline 30 in 2004 to 2006.
:oldlol:

19-6 with bad defense, 54% TS and 7 win shares is not even top 20. I can **** with 2007, though.

[CarryMeShaq]

1.Kobe



2. Wade
3. Ray



4. Manu

[bizil]

No way in hell is Manu the 3rd best SG of the last 20 years. Peak value wise or GOAT wise. But with that said, Manu was a top 10 SG in the Golden Era of SG's. And he will even get in the HOF someday. But u got Kobe, Wade, AI, T-Mac, Vince, and Ray Allen for sure over him. Pierce also played a lot of SG as well, even historically he will go down as an HOF SF. Joe Johnson and Manu are similar in that they both have the all around talent skillset to compete with the other great SG's. But they aren't AS DOMINANT as the other guys I named.

[Audio One]

Manu Ginobili is a career role player, that just happens to play for a championship organization. He should not be a hall of famer. He should not even be discussed as a hall of famer. He has never been the best guy on his team. He has never been the second best guy on his team. He has never been a top-3 guy at his position. He has never been a top-5 guy at his position. He has never finished in the top-10 in the league in any of the major statistical categories. He made the All-NBA 3rd Team one time. He has never made a defensive team. He has made 2 All-Star teams in 9 seasons and is on the downside of his prime. He has yet to pass 15,000 career points. His sole argument for being in the discussion for potential induction would be his international status and prowess. And with that being said, he only played international ball for 6 seasons and was only a top player for 3.

And you Ginobili apologists are really on his **** for getting lucky defeating Team USA during a transitionary period, where Team U.S.A. were not the favorites due to the stars not wanting to come back-- playing with a relatively young, unproven team, and were expected to struggle all tournament long, which they inevitably did (Then again this team WAS led by Tim Duncan--- the same player many on this board believe to be the player of the decade over Kobe, when Duncan gets exposed and it takes Bryant to bring the US of A back to respectability 4 years later )

America was only considered the favorites that year just like how Tiger's been considered the fav for the Masters, strictly from reputation more or less. Truthfully, Argentina and Italy were the real favorites.

And I guess going with the implied logic, Luis Scola and Anthony Parker would make it off the strength of just their international careers as well? Hell, even Tyler Hansbrough has an outside shot to turn things around, and make the HOF

[Totspurs]

He has never been the best guy on his team.
Just like Kevin McHale, Dave Cowens, Bill Sharman, John Stockton and many other greats.


He has never been the second best guy on his team.
That's obviously false. He was in 05, 06, 08, 10 and 11. 07 is a tossup with Tony.


He has never been a top-3 guy at his position.
That's, at least, very debatable. Kobe and Wade are obviously better, but I'd say Ginobili had a very strong case over JoJo at '07 and '08.


He has never been a top-5 guy at his position.
That's bvllshit. No explanation needed.


He has never made a defensive team.
Kobe has what, 13? Is he the best defender ever? Hell, was he a top perimeter defender for more than 5-6 years? I guess you think so.


He has made 2 All-Star teams in 9 seasons and is on the downside of his prime.
I think nobody outside ESPN judge players by their AS appearences. If so, Curry would be a scrub, Bosh and Yao would be 2 times better than Pau Gasol, Kobe would be a top 4 perimeter player this season and Joe Johnson would be god.


And with that being said, he only played international ball for 6 seasons and was only a top player for 3.
Won gold at '04 and he's still playing with Arg... wtf are you saying?


(Then again this team WAS led by Tim Duncan--- the same player many on this board believe to be the player of the decade over Kobe, when Duncan gets exposed and it takes Bryant to bring the US of A back to respectability 4 years later )
:oldlol: But... wasn't Gino a scrub? Did Duncan win 4 rings with poor help? If so (and that's what you claim saying Ginobili is not a great player), he's miles ahead of Kobe, lol.


And I guess going with the implied logic, Luis Scola and Anthony Parker would make it off the strength of just their international careers as well? Hell, even Tyler Hansbrough has an outside shot to turn things around, and make the HOF
Scola was a great player @ Tau, but he wasn't even the best player in that team (Garbajosa, Calderon were). And he's a second fiddle with Argentina. Anthony Parker... :oldlol:

[AintNoSunshine]

Jordan
Kobe
West
Manu
Wade

top 5


If you're not being sarcastic then you're being retarded

[RichieW]

Manu never carried a team? Dude has 2 italian MVPs and a Euroleague MVP while leading his team to a Gold medal over the USA. The world doesn't revolve around the NBA.

Could easily have won the 05 FMVP. He was in fact the leader of the #1 seed 10-11 Spurs but broke his elbow before the Memphis series.

You can't have it both ways. Either you criticise him for always having Duncan/Pop, or for not putting up big stats, but you can't do both. One offsets the other.

Harden is Manu 10 years ago. His stats on the Thunder are Spurs Manu, no reason to think he wouldn't be as good as Harden if he became #1 option on an average team.

[RichieW]

Problem is that Manu can't play his style of game and play 36 minutes like other franchise players. He gets injured a lot even WITH limited minutes (career avg 27.4 mins), much less if he were to try to play 35+ mins.

I think plenty of players couldn't play those kind of minutes but still did. Look what happened to TMac, Roy, Iverson etc..., all ridden in to the ground by thier coaches and shortened thier career. Manu has played professional basketball for 19 years and internationally most summers. Wade is only 31 and already a shell of his former self, never know what you'll get from him night to night.

Say what you want about players like Kobe, dude was insanely durable. Perhaps its more luck than anything else.

[rmt]

I think plenty of players couldn't play those kind of minutes but still did. Look what happened to TMac, Roy, Iverson etc..., all ridden in to the ground by thier coaches and shortened thier career. Manu has played professional basketball for 19 years and internationally most summers. Wade is only 31 and already a shell of his former self, never know what you'll get from him night to night.

Say what you want about players like Kobe, dude was insanely durable. Perhaps its more luck than anything else.

Luck of the genes. Look at Shaq - all that weight and never had the knee problems that haunt most big men.

Remember Wade's Fall 7 times. Get up eight commercial. Maybe he doesn't fall well as Parker does.

[rmt]

Manu Ginobili is a career role player, that just happens to play for a championship organization. He should not be a hall of famer. He should not even be discussed as a hall of famer. He has never been the best guy on his team. He has never been the second best guy on his team. He has never been a top-3 guy at his position. He has never been a top-5 guy at his position. He has never finished in the top-10 in the league in any of the major statistical categories. He made the All-NBA 3rd Team one time. He has never made a defensive team. He has made 2 All-Star teams in 9 seasons and is on the downside of his prime. He has yet to pass 15,000 career points. His sole argument for being in the discussion for potential induction would be his international status and prowess. And with that being said, he only played international ball for 6 seasons and was only a top player for 3.

And you Ginobili apologists are really on his **** for getting lucky defeating Team USA during a transitionary period, where Team U.S.A. were not the favorites due to the stars not wanting to come back-- playing with a relatively young, unproven team, and were expected to struggle all tournament long, which they inevitably did (Then again this team WAS led by Tim Duncan--- the same player many on this board believe to be the player of the decade over Kobe, when Duncan gets exposed and it takes Bryant to bring the US of A back to respectability 4 years later )

America was only considered the favorites that year just like how Tiger's been considered the fav for the Masters, strictly from reputation more or less. Truthfully, Argentina and Italy were the real favorites.

And I guess going with the implied logic, Luis Scola and Anthony Parker would make it off the strength of just their international careers as well? Hell, even Tyler Hansbrough has an outside shot to turn things around, and make the HOF

If Manu is just a career role player, then Duncan must be a much greater player than Kobe, player of the decade instead of Kobe - seeing as he played with the MDE instead of a career role player. You can't have it both ways.

Manu will make HOF - combination of NBA (3 rings) and international ball. If TD/TP/Manu win 13 more playoff games (little over 1 1/2 rounds) in the next 2 seasons, they'll pass Magic/KAJ/Cooper for most playoff wins by a trio.

Where do you get all this nonsense about him playing only 9 NBA seasons and international ball for only 6 seasons? Parker and Manu play international ball every summer except when they're recovering from injury/surgery and last summer (Manu).

[Artillery]

Manu Ginobili is a career role player, that just happens to play for a championship organization. He should not be a hall of famer. He should not even be discussed as a hall of famer. He has never been the best guy on his team. He has never been the second best guy on his team. He has never been a top-3 guy at his position. He has never been a top-5 guy at his position. He has never finished in the top-10 in the league in any of the major statistical categories. He made the All-NBA 3rd Team one time. He has never made a defensive team. He has made 2 All-Star teams in 9 seasons and is on the downside of his prime. He has yet to pass 15,000 career points. His sole argument for being in the discussion for potential induction would be his international status and prowess. And with that being said, he only played international ball for 6 seasons and was only a top player for 3

Even more amazing that Duncan won four championships with a playoff cancer in Tony Parker and a career role player in Ginobili as his 2nd/3rd options. :bowdown:

Imagine if he had a Shaq level teammate on the Spurs?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Really? I like Manu, but he's definitely become one of the more overrated players among basketball junkies. Audio One basically ETHERED this entire thread. Manu is POSSIBLY top ten SG of the last 20 years. Maybe. At best.

[RichieW]

Really? I like Manu, but he's definitely become one of the more overrated players among basketball junkies. Audio One basically ETHERED this entire thread. Manu is POSSIBLY top ten SG of the last 20 years. Maybe. At best.

This is what players like Manu and Parker have had to take for the rings. They'll never get the plaudits from the casual fan because they've always sacrificed individual plaudits for the team. Exactly the opposite of what someone like Harden has done.

When it's all said and done, Manu and Parker are going to have the hardware that Iverson and Carter could only dream of, and expect they're perfectly happy with that.

[SamuraiSWISH]

When it's all said and done, Manu and Parker are going to have the hardware that Iverson and Carter could only dream of, and expect they're perfectly happy with that.
Except Manu, and Parker weren't NEAR the caliber of players as Iverson or Carter. Are you serious? Neither TP or Ginobili are MVP, ALPHA caliber players. One of them is a career 6th man. All things considered, Manu Ginobili is a glorified Šarūnas Marčiulionis.

[HiphopRelated]

I think plenty of players couldn't play those kind of minutes but still did. Look what happened to TMac, Roy, Iverson etc..., all ridden in to the ground by thier coaches and shortened thier career. Manu has played professional basketball for 19 years and internationally most summers. Wade is only 31 and already a shell of his former self, never know what you'll get from him night to night.

Say what you want about players like Kobe, dude was insanely durable. Perhaps its more luck than anything else.
If Wade is a shell and still having a better season than Manu ever had, what does that say about Manu?

[rmt]

Except Manu, and Parker weren't NEAR the caliber of players as Iverson or Carter. Are you serious? Neither TP or Ginobili are MVP, ALPHA caliber players. One of them is a career 6th man. All things considered, Manu Ginobili is a glorified Šarūnas Marčiulionis.

Manu orchestrates the team while Parker and Duncan are on the bench. The reason he is a "sixth man" is not for lack of talent or skill but more his function on the team. He lacks the endurance to be a true franchise player. His style of play is perfectly suited to provide instant energy off the bench and is part of why he's so fragile (goes 110% all the time). His recklessness and pizazz adds to what would otherwise be a boring team. When he plays well, the Spurs are very special. Those moments are rare though and Parker and Duncan should be acknowledged as the workhorses that they are - rarely injured and bringing it every night.

The more posters tear down Manu (and Parker), the greater Duncan seems. The way I see it is Duncan is the foundation, Parker the engine that makes it go (now) and Manu is the whipped cream on top. The beauty of the trio is that they step up when others struggle, have been together for TWELVE years and are still contending - that's unheard of these days. Hopefully, by the end of Manu's and TD's contract (next year), they should be the winningest trio in NBA playoff history.

[bizil]

Manu Ginobili is a career role player, that just happens to play for a championship organization. He should not be a hall of famer. He should not even be discussed as a hall of famer. He has never been the best guy on his team. He has never been the second best guy on his team. He has never been a top-3 guy at his position. He has never been a top-5 guy at his position. He has never finished in the top-10 in the league in any of the major statistical categories. He made the All-NBA 3rd Team one time. He has never made a defensive team. He has made 2 All-Star teams in 9 seasons and is on the downside of his prime. He has yet to pass 15,000 career points. His sole argument for being in the discussion for potential induction would be his international status and prowess. And with that being said, he only played international ball for 6 seasons and was only a top player for 3.

And you Ginobili apologists are really on his **** for getting lucky defeating Team USA during a transitionary period, where Team U.S.A. were not the favorites due to the stars not wanting to come back-- playing with a relatively young, unproven team, and were expected to struggle all tournament long, which they inevitably did (Then again this team WAS led by Tim Duncan--- the same player many on this board believe to be the player of the decade over Kobe, when Duncan gets exposed and it takes Bryant to bring the US of A back to respectability 4 years later )

America was only considered the favorites that year just like how Tiger's been considered the fav for the Masters, strictly from reputation more or less. Truthfully, Argentina and Italy were the real favorites.

And I guess going with the implied logic, Luis Scola and Anthony Parker would make it off the strength of just their international careers as well? Hell, even Tyler Hansbrough has an outside shot to turn things around, and make the HOF

Great post! The HOF shit in basketball is a trip! And even though his NBA career isn't really HOF worthy, his combined international and NBA stuff will get him in. At his best, Manu was an All-Star caliber guard. But in terms of being a superstar kind of player, Manu was never on that level. I think people mistake a highly skilled All Star kind of player with a dominant superstar kind of player.