Who's the 2nd greatest scorer of alltime?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Michael Jordan is obviously the greatest scorer of alltime, but there is no real clear cut number two. Here are 10 candidates for being the second greatest scorer of alltime.

Elgin Baylor
Jerry West
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Kobe Bryant
George Gervin
Shaquille O'Neal
Karl Malone
Lebron James
Allen Iverson

Here are their scoring numbers in the Regular season, Playoffs and Finals.

REGULAR SEASON

PPG
Chamberlain - 30.07
James - 27.49
Baylor - 27.36
West - 27.03
Iverson - 26.66
Gervin - 26.18
Bryant - 25.46
Malone - 25.02
Abdul-Jabbar - 24.61
O'Neal - 23.69

Points
Abdul-Jabbar - 38,387
Malone - 36,928
Bryant - 31,700
Chamberlain - 31,419
O'Neal - 28,596
West - 25,192
Iverson - 24,369
Baylor - 23,149
James - 22,016
Gervin - 20,708

25 point games
Abdul-Jabbar - 794
Malone - 789
Bryant - 664
Chamberlain - 633
West - 581
O'Neal - 555
Iverson - 539
Baylor - 521
James - 514
Gervin - 451

30 point games
Chamberlain - 515
Malone - 435
Abdul-Jabbar - 429
Bryant - 419
West - 350
Iverson - 345
Baylor - 343
James - 313
Gervin - 296
O'Neal - 313

40 point games
Chamberlain - 271
Bryant - 120
Baylor - 88
Iverson - 79
Abdul-Jabbar - 70
Gervin - 68
West - 66
O'Neal - 49
James - 49
Malone - 44

50 point games
Chamberlain - 118
Bryant - 24
Baylor - 14
Iverson - 11
Abdul-Jabbar - 10
James - 9
West - 5
Gervin - 5
Malone - 4
O'Neal - 3

60 point games
Chamberlain - 32
Baylor - 5
Bryant - 5
West - 1
O'Neal - 1
Gervin - 1
Malone - 1

35 ppg seasons
Chamberlain - 5
Bryant - 1
Baylor - 1

30 ppg seasons
Chamberlain - 7
Abdul-Jabbar - 4
West - 4
Iverson - 4
Bryant - 3
Baylor - 3
James - 2
Gervin - 2
Malone - 1

25 ppg seasons
Bryant - 12
Malone - 12
West - 11
Abdul-Jabbar - 10
O'Neal - 10
James - 10
Iverson - 10
Baylor - 8
Chamberlain - 8
Gervin - 7

Scoring champion
Chamberlain - 7x
Gervin - 4x
Iverson - 4x
O'Neal - 2x
Abdul-Jabbar - 2x
Bryant - 2x
West - 1x
James - 1x

Points total leader
Chamberlain - 7x
Gervin - 4x
Bryant - 4x
Abdul-Jabbar - 3x
O'Neal - 3x
Iverson - 1x

Top 3 in scoring
Malone - 8x
Abdul-Jabbar - 8x
O'Neal - 8x
Bryant - 8x
James - 7x
Chamberlain - 7x
Iverson - 6x
Gervin - 5x
West - 5x
Baylor - 5x

Top 5 in scoring
Malone - 13x
Bryant - 12x
Abdul-Jabbar - 10x
James - 9x
Chamberlain - 9x
O'Neal - 8x
Iverson - 8x
Baylor - 8x
Gervin - 7x
West - 6x

3,000 point seasons
Chamberlain - 3

2,500 point seasons
Chamberlain - 7
Baylor - 2
Gervin - 2
Abdul-Jabbar - 2
Bryant - 1
Malone - 1

2,000 point seasons
Malone - 12
Abdul-Jabbar - 9
Bryant - 8
James - 8
Chamberlain - 7
Gervin - 6
Baylor - 5
West - 5
Iverson - 5
O'Neal - 4

Career high points per game
Chamberlain - 50.4
Baylor - 38.3
Bryant - 35.4
Abdul-Jabbar - 34.8
Gervin - 33.1
Iverson - 33.0
James - 31.4
West - 31.3
Malone - 31.0
O'Neal - 29.7

Career high points total
Chamberlain - 4,029
Bryant - 2,832
Abdul-Jabbar - 2,822
Gervin - 2,585
Malone - 2,540
Baylor - 2,538
James - 2,478
West - 2,476
O'Neal - 2,377
Iverson - 2,377

PLAYOFFS

Note: Playoffs only had 3 rounds for all of Baylor's, Chamberlain's, and West's careers and the first series was a best of 5.

PPG
Iverson - 29.73
West - 29.13
James - 28.05
Baylor - 27.04
Gervin - 26.98
Bryant - 25.64
Malone - 24.67
Abdul-Jabbar - 24.31
O'Neal - 24.31
Chamberlain - 22.54

Points
Abdul-Jabbar - 5,762
Bryant - 5,640
O'Neal - 5,250
Malone - 4,761
West - 4,457
James - 3,871
Baylor - 3,623
Chamberlain - 3,607
Iverson - 2,111
Gervin - 1,592

25 point games
Abdul-Jabbar - 126
Bryant - 123
O'Neal - 107
West - 104
Baylor - 104
Malone - 98
James - 90
Chamberlain - 63
Iverson - 48
Gervin - 34

30 point games
Bryant - 88
Abdul-Jabbar - 75
West - 70
James - 61
Baylor - 60
O'Neal - 55
Malone - 54
Chamberlain - 42
Iverson - 36
Gervin - 32

40 point games
West - 20
Baylor - 14
Bryant - 13
Chamberlain - 13
O'Neal - 12
James - 11
Iverson - 10
Abdul-Jabbar - 9
Gervin - 6
Malone - 4

50 point games
Chamberlain - 4
Iverson - 3
West - 2
Baylor - 1
Malone - 1
Bryant - 1

60 point games
Baylor - 1

35 ppg playoffs
Chamberlain - 2
Baylor - 2
West - 1
Abdul-Jabbar - 1
James - 1

30 ppg playoffs
West - 7
Bryant - 5
Chamberlain - 4
Baylor - 4
Abdul-Jabbar - 4
Iverson - 4
O'Neal - 3
James - 3
Gervin - 2
Malone - 2

25 ppg playoffs
Malone - 12
Abdul-Jabbar - 11
O'Neal - 9
Bryant - 9
West - 8
Baylor - 7
James - 7
Gervin - 7
Iverson - 6
Chamberlain - 6

Scoring champion
Abdul-Jabbar - 5
Gervin - 5
Baylor - 4
West - 4
Bryant - 3
James - 2
Iverson - 2
O'Neal - 1
Chamberlain - 1

Points total leader
West - 5
Bryant - 4
Baylor - 4
Abdul-Jabbar - 3
James - 3
O'Neal - 2
Iverson - 1
Chamberlain - 1

Top 3 in scoring
Abdul-Jabbar - 8x
West - 7x
Bryant - 7x
O'Neal - 6x
Malone - 6x
Iverson - 6x
Gervin - 5x
Baylor - 4x
James - 4x
Chamberlain - 3x

Top 5 in scoring
O'Neal - 10x
Malone - 10x
West - 9x
Bryant - 9x
Abdul-Jabbar - 8x
Baylor - 7x
James - 6x
Iverson - 6x
Gervin - 6x
Chamberlain - 3x

300 point playoffs
Abdul-Jabbar - 12
O'Neal - 9
Bryant - 9
West - 9
James - 8
Baylor - 8
Malone - 6
Chamberlain - 6
Iverson - 2
Gervin - 1

400 point playoffs
West - 7
Bryant - 7
James - 6
O'Neal - 6
Abdul-Jabbar - 5
Malone - 5
Baylor - 4
Chamberlain - 2
Gervin - 1
Iverson - 1

500 point playoffs
Bryant - 5
O'Neal - 3
James - 3
West - 2
Malone - 2
Abdul-Jabbar - 2
Baylor - 1
Iverson - 1

FINALS

PPG
Iverson - 35.6
West - 30.1
O'Neal - 28.8
Baylor - 26.4
Bryant - 25.3
Abdul-Jabbar - 23.5
James - 23.4
Malone - 19.6
Chamberlain - 18.6

Points
West - 1,679
Abdul-Jabbar - 1,317
Baylor - 1,161
Bryant - 937
O'Neal - 865
Chamberlain - 652
James - 515
Malone - 293
Iverson - 176

25 ppg finals
West - 7
O'Neal - 5
Abdul-Jabbar - 5
Baylor - 4
Bryant - 4
James - 2
Iverson - 1
Chamberlain - 1
Malone - 1

30 ppg finals
West - 6
O'Neal - 3
Abdul-Jabbar - 2
Baylor - 2
Iverson - 1
Bryant - 1

35 ppg finals
Baylor - 1
O'Neal - 1
West - 1
Iverson - 1

Leading scorer in finals
West - 5x
O'Neal - 3x
Abdul-Jabbar - 3x
Bryant - 3x
Baylor - 2x
James - 2x
Iverson - 1x
Chamberlain - 1x

[CeilingFan#1]

Jordan is not the clear cut #1 scorer. It is debatable, and I have Wilt at #1.

[moe94]

Jordan is not the clear cut #1 scorer. It is debatable, and I have Wilt at #1.

Chamberlain's playoffs: 22.5 PPG on 52% shooting

Jordan's playoffs: 33 PPG on 49% shooting

It's pretty close and I think Wilt has the advantage.

[Rose'sACL]

Chamberlain's playoffs: 22.5 PPG on 52% shooting

Jordan's playoffs: 33 PPG on 49% shooting

It's pretty close and I think Wilt has the advantage.
But wilt played in the slower league which had better defense.
:)

[TheMarkMadsen]

Holy shit awesome stats awesome thread

[Deuce Bigalow]

Jordan is not the clear cut #1 scorer. It is debatable, and I have Wilt at #1.
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j179/devilelias26/arigold.gif

[bdreason]

MJ.

[RightToCensor]

I swear, if you don't consider KAJ #1, then you need to choose another sport to watch.

[CeilingFan#1]

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j179/devilelias26/arigold.gif

As you posted:
60 point games
Chamberlain - 32

50 point games
Chamberlain - 118

Career high points per game
Chamberlain - 50.4

[pauk]

Larry Bird :cheers:

[moe94]

As you posted:
60 point games
Chamberlain - 32

50 point games
Chamberlain - 118

Career high points per game
Chamberlain - 50.4

Why are you dodging the playoffs post? Are you implying Wilt might have shrunk when it counted? Hmmmmm.

[BoutPractice]

One other player I think deserves mention on the list is Shaq (similarly unstoppable as KAJ regardless of volume, career 24 ppg in regular season and playoffs on ridiculous percentages, and had his best offensive performances in the Finals). When it's all said and done Durant might get to that number 2 spot. It's not guaranteed by any means, but I'd be willing to bet on that.

[Deuce Bigalow]

As you posted:
60 point games
Chamberlain - 32

50 point games
Chamberlain - 118

Career high points per game
Chamberlain - 50.4
Here you go

Regular season points
Jordan- 32,292
Chamberlain- 31,419

Regular season PPG
Jordan- 30.12
Wilt- 30.07

30-point games Regular season
Jordan- 562
Chamberlain- 515

Scoring Titles
Jordan- 10
Wilt- 7

Playoff points
Jordan- 5,987
Chamberlain- 3,607

Playoff PPG
Jordan- 33.4
Chamberlain- 22.5

Scoring Titles Playoffs
Jordan- 10
Chamberlain- 1

30-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 109
Wilt- 42

40-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 38
Chamberlain- 13

50-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 8
Chamberlain- 4

60-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 1
Chamberlain- 0

Points Finals
Jordan- 1,176
Chamberlain- 652

Finals PPG
Jordan- 33.6
Chamberlain- 18.6

30-point games Finals
Jordan- 23
Chamberlain- 4

40-point games Finals
Jordan- 6
Chamberlain- 1

50-point games Finals
Jordan- 1
Chamberlain- 0

[Lebron23]

Where's Lebron?

27.5 ppg on 49.4 FG% in the regular season. He's top 3 in scoring since the 2004-05 to 2012-13 NBA Season. He won his first scoring title back in 2008 after he averaged 30 ppg in the regular season.

28.1 ppg on 47.1 FG% in the playoffs.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Where's Lebron?

27.5 ppg on 49.4 FG% in the regular season. He's top 3 in scoring since the 2004-05 to 2012-13 NBA Season. He won his first scoring title back in 2008 after he averaged 30 ppg in the regular season.

28.1 ppg on 47.1 FG% in the playoffs.
http://howlowcanabloggerget.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/beatnik_doctor_george_costanza.jpg

[Breezy]

Your problem is you need to Define "Scorer." Kareem is the most reliable scorer out of that bunch and if your life depended on it Kareem down low on the block with a Sky hook is the surest 2 points in NBA history. Wilt however obvioulsy has the gaudy high numbers that no one even comes close to matching. Kobe brings his own uniqueness to your list because he can't match Wilt or kareem in the areas I just mentioned he does have the widest array of scoring moves and versatility.

West and Baylor don't belong on the list.

The lack of clearly defined terms will not lead to any answers.

My answer for the nebulous question is Kareem.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

1.Wilt
2.MJ
3.Sha
4.Kareem/LeBron
5.Bird
Whoever says otherwise is a straight up lying:coleman:

[Mr Feeny]

One other player I think deserves mention on the list is Shaq (similarly unstoppable as KAJ regardless of volume, career 24 ppg in regular season and playoffs on ridiculous percentages, and had his best offensive performances in the Finals). When it's all said and done Durant might get to that number 2 spot. It's not guaranteed by any means, but I'd be willing to bet on that.

Agreed. Shaq was pretty much unstopppable and lead the league in fg% on a routine basis. Volume scorig is overstated in my opinion.

Player A: 10 years of NBA basketball and 30ppg avg 80 games a season: 24k
Player B:12 years of NBA basketball and 25 ppg avg 80 games a season: 24 k

Making the argument that player B is just a great a scorer as player B is would be disingenuous. That is why I'd always take Wilt over Kareem. In my opnion it isnt even a debate. Kareem's amazing longevity shouldn't be confused with scorig prowes.
To answer the OP who did a great job with research, id say its Wilt and MAYBe Durant when its all said and done.

[CeilingFan#1]

Why are you dodging the playoffs post? Are you implying Wilt might have shrunk when it counted? Hmmmmm.

Wasn't trying to dodge it. You gave the edge to Wilt so I didn't think it was worth trying to convince you of anything. I'll address my take on that in my response to Deuce Bigalow in a few minutes.

[moe94]

Wasn't trying to dodge it. You gave the edge to Wilt so I didn't think it was worth trying to convince you of anything.

You cannot be serious.

[Bones_Jones]

Wilt is ops daddy

[CeilingFan#1]

Here you go

Thanks for sharing that. I was too lazy to find all of that. I respect either answer, but I'll provide my perspective.

Regular season points
Jordan- 32,292
Chamberlain- 31,419
Chamberlain would easily have more if he did not take a back seat to his teammates late in his career. Chamberlain took a back seat role-especially his final 2 seasons-while playing for a championship contender and MJ jacked up shots on a scrub team his final 2 years. Before anybody says that Wilt shot less because of being incapable, he led the league in fg% his final 2 seasons including a super impressive 72.7% his final season. He backed off because as he aged, he went for more efficiency while Baylor and West (2 other top 10 scorers of all time) started stepping up. Jordan had Pippen, but Pippen was not near the level of scorers that either of them were.

Regular season PPG
Jordan- 30.12
Wilt- 30.07
Again Wilt took a back seat role for many seasons that would have altered this. The 0.05ppg is so miniscule anyway, that this is essentially meaningless in terms of comparison.

30-point games Regular season
Jordan- 562
Chamberlain- 515
I assume this means 30 or greater rather than games scored between 30-39 points. Chamberlain would again easily surpass this if he didn't take a back seat role. Jordan never averaged fewer than 18 shots in a game. Wilt did 6 times. There is the flip side in which Wilt had many seasons with a ridiculous amount of fg attempts that I won't ignore. It is hard to tell who got the advantage here. Jordan spending a majority of his career shooting over 22 shots per game or Wilt having 6 seasons shooting over 28 shots but 6 seasons shooting under 18 (2 seasons under 10).

Scoring Titles
Jordan- 10
Wilt- 7
Easily covered by Wilt willingly taking a backseat role. Every season he didn't take a backseat he had the scoring title and could have easily continued. His first season taking the backseat in which he only shot 14 shots per game, he still scored 24ppg.

Playoff points
Jordan- 5,987
Chamberlain- 3,607
I'll cover in Playoff PPG

Playoff PPG
Jordan- 33.4
Chamberlain- 22.5
Their Playoff PPG was comparable until Wilt took a back seat. Jordan was always expected to carry the scoring load with a good scorer, but Wilt had 2 other top 10 scorers on his team that he allowed to score more and more as he aged in Baylor and West. Jordan having to share the ball with Pippen is nowhere near comparable to Wilt sharing having to share with Baylor and West. Also, some series Wilt had to go against the arguable GOAT defender in Bill Russell.

Scoring Titles Playoffs
Jordan- 10
Chamberlain- 1
Probably the best argument in favor of Jordan. Wilt had 6 playoffs where he shot enough that he should have had a shot at this, while Jordan succeeded in 10 of his 13 attempts. Although Jordan's never had to compete for this title with a Baylor level scorer, who had 4 times won this title, while frequently having to go against a Bill Russell level defender.

30-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 109
Wilt- 42
Jordan had much more games shooting enough to score 30. Jordan shot 25 shots per game in his playoff career, Wilt shot 17. Jordan averaged between 22-32 shots per game in the playoffs for 12 playoff runs, while Wilt shot 22-32 for 5 playoff runs, which tended to be shorter playoff runs, meaning way less games shooting enough to score 30 or more.

40-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 38
Chamberlain- 13
See 30-point Playoff games.

50-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 8
Chamberlain- 4
See 30-point Playoff games.

60-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 1
Chamberlain- 0
See 30-point Playoff games.

Points Finals
Jordan- 1,176
Chamberlain- 652
Jordan played in more Finals games and shot more in them.

Finals PPG
Jordan- 33.6
Chamberlain- 18.6
Jordan shot way more in Finals games.

30-point games Finals
Jordan- 23
Chamberlain- 4
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.

40-point games Finals
Jordan- 6
Chamberlain- 1
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.

50-point games Finals
Jordan- 1
Chamberlain- 0
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.



So, essentially Jordan's scoring is exaggerated by the number of games that he was the go to guy since he didn't have to share the ball with Baylor/West level scorers. Wilt's stats were exaggerated for a few seasons by him getting a ridiculous # of touches, but then spend more of his career letting those 2 other top 10 all time scorers have the ball as well.

What are Jordan's total 40, 50, and 60+ scoring games in comparison to Wilt's? Wilt also shot a better fg% for his career and led the league 9 times compared to Jordan's 0. He did this 2 times, which Jordan did 0. Unlike many modern players who may lead the league in fg% because of limited shooting when it is absolutely the easiest time to score possible, Wilt simultaneously was the highest fg% and ppg leader. That is an impressive feat that absolutely cannot be ignored. Also, I have to go all Kobe fan style on you and also point out the 100 point game.

[CeilingFan#1]

You cannot be serious.

I misread the meaning of your post. I thought you were pointing out a place that Jordan has an advantage, but then were saying that you overall thought they were close with Wilt having the advantage. But now I see you were only looking at 1 aspect of their careers to support your opinion rather than looking at the accumulation of their careers.

[dannywpt]

Where's Lebron?

http://www.abload.de/img/1fd5pcsfxip.gif

[ImKobe]

Where's Lebron?

27.5 ppg on 49.4 FG% in the regular season. He's top 3 in scoring since the 2004-05 to 2012-13 NBA Season. He won his first scoring title back in 2008 after he averaged 30 ppg in the regular season.

28.1 ppg on 47.1 FG% in the playoffs.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/anticipation.gif

[Y2ktors]

Wilt and MJ are #1 and #2. Take your pick on which order

[Marlo_Stanfield]

http://www.abload.de/img/1fd5pcsfxip.gif
3rd best PPG in NBA history on great efficency. you mad?

[andgar923]

Hmm.... Wilt vs Mj?

I'll take the one that can shoot fts, score from anywhere on the court.

Next....

[CeilingFan#1]

Wilt and MJ are #1 and #2. Take your pick on which order

Exactly. I pick Wilt, but you really can't be wrong either way.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan is not the clear cut #1 scorer. It is debatable, and I have Wilt at #1.

It's not really debatable when you look at it from a pace normalized perspective, where Jordan dominates the list of the best scoring seasons of all time. Let's not even get into how MJ takes a dump on Wilt as a postseason scorer:

http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/top-scoring-rates-regular-season.jpg

[Psileas]

Thanks for sharing that. I was too lazy to find all of that. I respect either answer, but I'll provide my perspective.

Regular season points
Jordan- 32,292
Chamberlain- 31,419
Chamberlain would easily have more if he did not take a back seat to his teammates late in his career. Chamberlain took a back seat role-especially his final 2 seasons-while playing for a championship contender and MJ jacked up shots on a scrub team his final 2 years. Before anybody says that Wilt shot less because of being incapable, he led the league in fg% his final 2 seasons including a super impressive 72.7% his final season. He backed off because as he aged, he went for more efficiency while Baylor and West (2 other top 10 scorers of all time) started stepping up. Jordan had Pippen, but Pippen was not near the level of scorers that either of them were.

Regular season PPG
Jordan- 30.12
Wilt- 30.07
Again Wilt took a back seat role for many seasons that would have altered this. The 0.05ppg is so miniscule anyway, that this is essentially meaningless in terms of comparison.

30-point games Regular season
Jordan- 562
Chamberlain- 515
I assume this means 30 or greater rather than games scored between 30-39 points. Chamberlain would again easily surpass this if he didn't take a back seat role. Jordan never averaged fewer than 18 shots in a game. Wilt did 6 times. There is the flip side in which Wilt had many seasons with a ridiculous amount of fg attempts that I won't ignore. It is hard to tell who got the advantage here. Jordan spending a majority of his career shooting over 22 shots per game or Wilt having 6 seasons shooting over 28 shots but 6 seasons shooting under 18 (2 seasons under 10).

Scoring Titles
Jordan- 10
Wilt- 7
Easily covered by Wilt willingly taking a backseat role. Every season he didn't take a backseat he had the scoring title and could have easily continued. His first season taking the backseat in which he only shot 14 shots per game, he still scored 24ppg.

Playoff points
Jordan- 5,987
Chamberlain- 3,607
I'll cover in Playoff PPG

Playoff PPG
Jordan- 33.4
Chamberlain- 22.5
Their Playoff PPG was comparable until Wilt took a back seat. Jordan was always expected to carry the scoring load with a good scorer, but Wilt had 2 other top 10 scorers on his team that he allowed to score more and more as he aged in Baylor and West. Jordan having to share the ball with Pippen is nowhere near comparable to Wilt sharing having to share with Baylor and West. Also, some series Wilt had to go against the arguable GOAT defender in Bill Russell.

Scoring Titles Playoffs
Jordan- 10
Chamberlain- 1
Probably the best argument in favor of Jordan. Wilt had 6 playoffs where he shot enough that he should have had a shot at this, while Jordan succeeded in 10 of his 13 attempts. Although Jordan's never had to compete for this title with a Baylor level scorer, who had 4 times won this title, while frequently having to go against a Bill Russell level defender.

30-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 109
Wilt- 42
Jordan had much more games shooting enough to score 30. Jordan shot 25 shots per game in his playoff career, Wilt shot 17. Jordan averaged between 22-32 shots per game in the playoffs for 12 playoff runs, while Wilt shot 22-32 for 5 playoff runs, which tended to be shorter playoff runs, meaning way less games shooting enough to score 30 or more.

40-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 38
Chamberlain- 13
See 30-point Playoff games.

50-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 8
Chamberlain- 4
See 30-point Playoff games.

60-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 1
Chamberlain- 0
See 30-point Playoff games.

Points Finals
Jordan- 1,176
Chamberlain- 652
Jordan played in more Finals games and shot more in them.

Finals PPG
Jordan- 33.6
Chamberlain- 18.6
Jordan shot way more in Finals games.

30-point games Finals
Jordan- 23
Chamberlain- 4
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.

40-point games Finals
Jordan- 6
Chamberlain- 1
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.

50-point games Finals
Jordan- 1
Chamberlain- 0
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.



So, essentially Jordan's scoring is exaggerated by the number of games that he was the go to guy since he didn't have to share the ball with Baylor/West level scorers. Wilt's stats were exaggerated for a few seasons by him getting a ridiculous # of touches, but then spend more of his career letting those 2 other top 10 all time scorers have the ball as well.

What are Jordan's total 40, 50, and 60+ scoring games in comparison to Wilt's? Wilt also shot a better fg% for his career and led the league 9 times compared to Jordan's 0. He did this 2 times, which Jordan did 0. Unlike many modern players who may lead the league in fg% because of limited shooting when it is absolutely the easiest time to score possible, Wilt simultaneously was the highest fg% and ppg leader. That is an impressive feat that absolutely cannot be ignored. Also, I have to go all Kobe fan style on you and also point out the 100 point game.

:applause:
I'd have said you saved me some time, if I had cared to take OP seriously.

[Mr Feeny]

One could argue that Lebron James is a pass first player and yet he still averages comfortably more than Wilt in the playoffs. In the regular season he was a beast but there's no excusing 18 ppg in the finals. If thats not the definition of choking, I dont know what is.

[CeilingFan#1]

It's not really debatable when you look at it from a pace normalized perspective, where Jordan dominates the list of the best scoring seasons of all time. Let's not even get into how MJ takes a dump on Wilt as a postseason scorer:

http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/top-scoring-rates-regular-season.jpg

I never understood why people look so much at pace. If you are able to get the ball into position to score quickly, that is actually a good thing. For example, if you can get the ball to a guy down low and he can get you a high percentage look in under 5 seconds, that is a better thing than needing 15 seconds to get a good look.

[CeilingFan#1]

Wilt also shot a better fg% for his career and led the league 9 times compared to Jordan's 0. He did this 2 times, which Jordan did 0.

Accidentally left out that this was playoffs.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I gotta go with Kareem.

Really good and diverse post-game, athletic, could knock his ft's, greatest offensive move ever seen in his arsenal
Peak scoring almost 35 ppg on .603 TS%
13 seasons combined of almost 28 ppg on .590 TS%
Finished #1 in points 3 times; 2 scoring titles (ppg), 8 times top3
Actually maintained or even elevated his game in the post-season, from 1970 to 1986 in 15 playoff runs, 180 games, scored 27.3 ppg on .577 TS%
Leader in points scored, all-time

[Jailblazers7]

Why are you dodging the playoffs post? Are you implying Wilt might have shrunk when it counted? Hmmmmm.

Wilt willingly sacrificed his scoring in his Laker years, especially his last two seasons.

68-69 playoffs - 18 games 9.8 FGA
71-72 playoffs - 15 games 9.5 FGA
72-73 playoffs - 17 games 6.8 FGA

[pegasus]

3rd best PPG in NBA history on great efficency. you mad?
And what's his go-to move?

a. Pass
b. Flop
c. Turnover
d. Brick
e. Take talents to South Beach

[Iceman#44]

No mention for Allen Iverson or George Iceman Gervin??? WTF?????

Those 2 guys have won 8 scoring titles (4 AI and 4 Ice):facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Flash31]

1.Wilt
2.MJ
3.Sha
4.Kareem/LeBron
5.Bird
Whoever says otherwise is a straight up lying:coleman:


In order

1.Wilt
2.Jordan
3.Kareem
4.Karl Malone
5.Shaq

Wilt-most dominant scorer ever
QUICKEST TO 10,000-20,000-30,000 pts
Jordan-longest stretch of dominant scoring
Kareem-unparalleled longevity,dominant to good scorer
20 ppg for 20 years 1st in Point Total
7,000 more than MJ
K Malone-extreme longevity,2nd in points 2,000 behind KAJ
yet 5,000 away from next closest player
Shaq-one of most dominant scorers in history
couldnt sustain it big enough and dominate like MJ,Wilt and not enough longevity as KAJ,KM and is under 30,000



rest

In NO order

Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
George Gervin
Dirk Nowitzki
Elgin Baylor
Allen Iverson
Dr J
Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Jerry West

[Deuce Bigalow]

Thanks for sharing that. I was too lazy to find all of that. I respect either answer, but I'll provide my perspective.

Regular season points
Jordan- 32,292
Chamberlain- 31,419
Chamberlain would easily have more if he did not take a back seat to his teammates late in his career. Chamberlain took a back seat role-especially his final 2 seasons-while playing for a championship contender and MJ jacked up shots on a scrub team his final 2 years. Before anybody says that Wilt shot less because of being incapable, he led the league in fg% his final 2 seasons including a super impressive 72.7% his final season. He backed off because as he aged, he went for more efficiency while Baylor and West (2 other top 10 scorers of all time) started stepping up. Jordan had Pippen, but Pippen was not near the level of scorers that either of them were.

Regular season PPG
Jordan- 30.12
Wilt- 30.07
Again Wilt took a back seat role for many seasons that would have altered this. The 0.05ppg is so miniscule anyway, that this is essentially meaningless in terms of comparison.

30-point games Regular season
Jordan- 562
Chamberlain- 515
I assume this means 30 or greater rather than games scored between 30-39 points. Chamberlain would again easily surpass this if he didn't take a back seat role. Jordan never averaged fewer than 18 shots in a game. Wilt did 6 times. There is the flip side in which Wilt had many seasons with a ridiculous amount of fg attempts that I won't ignore. It is hard to tell who got the advantage here. Jordan spending a majority of his career shooting over 22 shots per game or Wilt having 6 seasons shooting over 28 shots but 6 seasons shooting under 18 (2 seasons under 10).

Scoring Titles
Jordan- 10
Wilt- 7
Easily covered by Wilt willingly taking a backseat role. Every season he didn't take a backseat he had the scoring title and could have easily continued. His first season taking the backseat in which he only shot 14 shots per game, he still scored 24ppg.

Playoff points
Jordan- 5,987
Chamberlain- 3,607
I'll cover in Playoff PPG

Playoff PPG
Jordan- 33.4
Chamberlain- 22.5
Their Playoff PPG was comparable until Wilt took a back seat. Jordan was always expected to carry the scoring load with a good scorer, but Wilt had 2 other top 10 scorers on his team that he allowed to score more and more as he aged in Baylor and West. Jordan having to share the ball with Pippen is nowhere near comparable to Wilt sharing having to share with Baylor and West. Also, some series Wilt had to go against the arguable GOAT defender in Bill Russell.

Scoring Titles Playoffs
Jordan- 10
Chamberlain- 1
Probably the best argument in favor of Jordan. Wilt had 6 playoffs where he shot enough that he should have had a shot at this, while Jordan succeeded in 10 of his 13 attempts. Although Jordan's never had to compete for this title with a Baylor level scorer, who had 4 times won this title, while frequently having to go against a Bill Russell level defender.

30-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 109
Wilt- 42
Jordan had much more games shooting enough to score 30. Jordan shot 25 shots per game in his playoff career, Wilt shot 17. Jordan averaged between 22-32 shots per game in the playoffs for 12 playoff runs, while Wilt shot 22-32 for 5 playoff runs, which tended to be shorter playoff runs, meaning way less games shooting enough to score 30 or more.

40-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 38
Chamberlain- 13
See 30-point Playoff games.

50-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 8
Chamberlain- 4
See 30-point Playoff games.

60-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 1
Chamberlain- 0
See 30-point Playoff games.

Points Finals
Jordan- 1,176
Chamberlain- 652
Jordan played in more Finals games and shot more in them.

Finals PPG
Jordan- 33.6
Chamberlain- 18.6
Jordan shot way more in Finals games.

30-point games Finals
Jordan- 23
Chamberlain- 4
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.

40-point games Finals
Jordan- 6
Chamberlain- 1
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.

50-point games Finals
Jordan- 1
Chamberlain- 0
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.



So, essentially Jordan's scoring is exaggerated by the number of games that he was the go to guy since he didn't have to share the ball with Baylor/West level scorers. Wilt's stats were exaggerated for a few seasons by him getting a ridiculous # of touches, but then spend more of his career letting those 2 other top 10 all time scorers have the ball as well.

What are Jordan's total 40, 50, and 60+ scoring games in comparison to Wilt's? Wilt also shot a better fg% for his career and led the league 9 times compared to Jordan's 0. He did this 2 times, which Jordan did 0. Unlike many modern players who may lead the league in fg% because of limited shooting when it is absolutely the easiest time to score possible, Wilt simultaneously was the highest fg% and ppg leader. That is an impressive feat that absolutely cannot be ignored. Also, I have to go all Kobe fan style on you and also point out the 100 point game.
More excuses by Wilt fans comes as no surprise. Essay after essay. Both played in 6 Finals btw and Jordan was more efficient than Wilt. MJ-56.9 TS% and 56.8 TS% in the playoffs, Wilt-54.7 TS% and 52.4 TS% in the playoffs. The facts speak for themselves and excuses because Wilt didn't shoot enough or that Jordan shot more are weak.

[HylianNightmare]

mj

[Deuce Bigalow]

His scoring drops because he changed roles they said...

1960-1966 Regular season - 39.6 ppg
1960-1966 Playoffs - 32.8 ppg

1967-1973 Regular season - 19.8 ppg
1967-1973 Playoffs - 17.6 ppg

Regular season PPG -- Playoffs PPG
37.6 -- 33.2 (-4.4)
38.4 -- 37.0 (-1.4)
50.4 -- 35.0 (-15.4)
44.8 -- N/A
36.9 -- 34.7 (-2.2)
34.7 -- 29.3 (-5.4)
33.8 -- 28.0 (-5.8)
24.7 -- 21.7 (-3.0)
24.3 -- 23.7 (-0.6)
20.5 -- 13.9 (-6.6)
27.3 -- 22.1 (-5.2)
20.7 -- 18.3 (-2.5)
14.8 -- 14.7 (-0.1)
13.2 -- 10.4 (-2.8)

Regular season PPG -- NBA Finals PPG
36.9 -- 29.2 (-7.7)
24.7 -- 17.7 (-7.0)
20.5 -- 11.7 (-8.8)
27.3 -- 23.3 (-4.0)
14.8 -- 19.4 (+4.6)
13.2 -- 11.6 (-1.6)

[Im so nba'd out]

Its kobe.Kobe he is jordan 2.0 and thats a compliment idc if he stole from his game atleast he stole from the best player ever.

[Marchesk]

Where's Lebron?

27.5 ppg on 49.4 FG% in the regular season. He's top 3 in scoring since the 2004-05 to 2012-13 NBA Season. He won his first scoring title back in 2008 after he averaged 30 ppg in the regular season.

28.1 ppg on 47.1 FG% in the playoffs.

Since we're talking about a player in his prime, here's Oscar at 29:

30.3 on 48.8% for regular season and 29.1 on 46.6% for playoffs.

I'm sure there are others who would be averaging more than Lebron at age 29 like Dantley or Baylor.

[Marchesk]

His scoring drops because he changed roles they said...

1960-1966 Regular season - 39.6 ppg
1960-1966 Playoffs - 32.8 ppg

Wilt shot 50% in the playoffs during his volume scoring years. 33 a game isn't bad. That would rank up there with the greatest playoff scoring stretches.

[NumberSix]

#1. Wilt
#2. Jordan

[ArbitraryWater]

Amazing how people act LeBron ain't close to the top spot :oldlol:

LeBron >> Kobe in scoring

BUT-BUT-BUT Kobe takes tough shots! Kobe can beat you in more ways!! GODBE! BLACK MAMB!

I don't care how one scores, get it done. LeBron get's it done.

[Tking714]

Shaq. If he could hit a freethrow his avg would be 40ppg

[IncarceratedBob]

LeBrons name shouldnt be mentioned in this thread, he's a great overall player like magic or bird. he isnt a prolific scorer like jordan, kareem, kobe, etc.

[ArbitraryWater]

LeBrons name shouldnt be mentioned in this thread, he's a great overall player like magic or bird. he isnt a prolific scorer like jordan, kareem, kobe, etc.

Avoiding an explanation? Any reasoning to LeBron not being as prolific as Kareem or Kobe?

[Milbuck]

Amazing how people act LeBron ain't close to the top spot :oldlol:

LeBron >> Kobe in scoring

BUT-BUT-BUT Kobe takes tough shots! Kobe can beat you in more ways!! GODBE! BLACK MAMB!

I don't care how one scores, get it done. LeBron get's it done.

Yeah, the guy who has never scored 60+ points in his career is the 2nd greatest scorer of all time. Logic.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I can add more players to the comparison if you guys like. Shaq, Gervin, Iverson, Lebron, Karl Malone were mentioned, agree/disagree? Anymore?

[Milbuck]

I can add more players to the comparison if you guys like. Shaq, Gervin, Iverson, Lebron, Karl Malone were mentioned, agree/disagree? Anymore?

You can throw Karl in there for his longevity and Shaq for his peak dominance, but if we're talking serious contenders, it's a 3 way race between MJ, Wilt, and Kareem.

[scm5]

I would say Shaq or Kareem would be 2 and 3 with Kobe coming in 4th.

I think Kobe's scoring is severely downplayed these days because of efficient-minded players like Lebron and Durant. Kobe's TS% has always been good for a volume scorer, and that's exactly what he did best, score.

Lebron is also definitely in the argument, anyone saying otherwise is a hater.

[East_Stone_Ya]

Malone off course

[hateraid]

Wilt first, KAJ, second

[RichieW]

Lebron isn't even the best scorer in the league, let alone in the conversation all time.

In terms of being pure unstoppable, peak Shaq, Kareem and Wilt are in the conversation above Jordan IMO

[Black and White]

Amazing how people act LeBron ain't close to the top spot :oldlol:

LeBron >> Kobe in scoring

BUT-BUT-BUT Kobe takes tough shots! Kobe can beat you in more ways!! GODBE! BLACK MAMB!

I don't care how one scores, get it done. LeBron get's it done.

81 point game says hi

[Marchesk]

Adrian Dantley from 80-86:

29.5 / 56.2% / 82%

He had four consecutive seasons over 30. He belongs in the conversation.

[hateraid]

Adrian Dantley from 80-86:

29.5 / 56.2% / 82%

He had four consecutive seasons over 30. He belongs in the conversation.

No even close. In that respect Nique, King, Kobe, AI, should be in the same conversation

[KendrickPerkins]

In about 2-3 more years, Kevin Durant.

[Marchesk]

No even close. In that respect Nique, King, Kobe, AI, should be in the same conversation

Yeah and why not? People are mentioning Shaq. Not sure why he has a case over those guys.

[Breezy]

This full body contortion to try to explain and come up with excuses as to why Wilt Would have and Could have scored more than Jordan is really stretching the limits of reason.

Watch I can do it too.

All of Wilts superior scoring seasons are a result of him shooting more than MJ. He has 5 seasons shooting more FGA than MJ's highest season. Therefore IF Jordan would have matched Wilt's shot count It would be clear that Jordan is the superior scorer. Not to mention the higher number of free throws attempts and higher percentage of them he would have hit.


Blah blah blah blah.

[Marchesk]

All of Wilts superior scoring seasons are a result of him shooting more than MJ. He has 5 seasons shooting more FGA than MJ's highest season. Therefore IF Jordan would have matched Wilt's shot count It would be clear that Jordan is the superior scorer.

Did MJ shoot a higher percentage than Wilt? The only way MJ scores more is by hitting more free throws. So in that regard, Jordan is a better scorer.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If we're including the playoffs, ya know, when REAL defense is played...

1. Jordan
2/3. Wilt
2/3. Kareem

[tmacattack33]

Not sure why Kobe is there yet Durant, Shaq, and Wade are not.

And for those wanting Lebron on the list, i think if you take away his passing ability and teams could focus more on him, then he wouldn't be so amazing with his scoring. Of course you can't do this though, this isn't NBA 2k where you can edit his passer rating, so i don't know, it's a tough call.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I never understood why people look so much at pace. If you are able to get the ball into position to score quickly, that is actually a good thing. For example, if you can get the ball to a guy down low and he can get you a high percentage look in under 5 seconds, that is a better thing than needing 15 seconds to get a good look.

...except that Jordan was able to get a good look in the same or less time with the ball in his hands than Wilt anyway. Jordan usually only had the ball for 2-5 seconds per scoring opportunity. Don't confuse him with guys like Kobe/Lebron/Iverson.

[hateraid]

Yeah and why not? People are mentioning Shaq. Not sure why he has a case over those guys.

Dantley compared to Shaq? C'mon man...

Dantley is on a tier lower in this category and does not belong in the conversation. Why stop at dantley? Why not Nique? King? AI?

[SamuraiSWISH]

If we're including the playoffs, ya know, when REAL defense is played...

1. Jordan
2/3. Wilt
2/3. Kareem
Meh, I don't know about Wilt @ #2 if playoffs are included. That would absolutely move him further down the list. Wilt was a known to shrink in the playoffs. Let's be honest.

If we include the more difficultly defended playoffs. I'm going with ...

1. Jordan
2. West

And then a battle for third between:

Baylor / Iverson / Kobe / LeBron / Shaq / Barkley

[CavaliersFTW]

http://i.minus.com/iHXWVpqaZYXb2.gif

http://youtu.be/_tkFcu_CdwU?t=1m30s

As far as #1 (Wilt) it isn't even close. But the battle for #2 is tough.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem/Kobe

[Marchesk]

Dantley compared to Shaq? C'mon man...

Dantley is on a tier lower in this category and does not belong in the conversation. Why stop at dantley? Why not Nique? King? AI?

We're talking about top scorers, not top players, right? When I go to compare Dantley to Shaq as a scorer, I see that Dantley's stats are a bit better, although O'Neil had a higher FG% (but Dantley's was damn high for a small forward).

Shaq never scored 30 once in his career. Dantley did it four seasons in a row.

[Prometheus]

And what's his go-to move?

a. Pass
b. Flop
c. Turnover
d. Brick
e. Take talents to South Beach

you really dislike LeBron james don't you? do you think he is a good basketball player?

[Prometheus]

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem/Kobe

yep. pretty much this

[r0drig0lac]

wilt is the best center of all time, the most dominant, the greatest athlete in the league, and it would be the 1st pick in a draft of all time no doubt, but he is not the biggest scorer, unlike MJ he had a "small "failed in that aspect.

[Cold soul]

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem/Kobe

Good post.

Mine: Wilt/Kobe/Kareem

[CavaliersFTW]

wilt is the best center of all time, the most dominant, the greatest athlete in the league, and it would be the 1st pick in a draft of all time no doubt, but he is not the biggest scorer, unlike MJ he was a failure this aspect.
Wilt was a 'scorer' for 7 seasons of his career. And in that time, he raised the bar so high nobody could touch it, not even MJ. Other great scorers only top Wilt in scoring longevity, due to playing their entire careers with a role of scoring points but nobody touches Wilt in ability to put the ball in the hoop. Wilt as a scorer averaged over 40 points per game. 40. He peaked at over 50 points per game. MJ or any other player in NBA history as a scorer averaged much less. Sorry, not comparable. Nobody could score like Wilt when it was Wilt's job.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Regular season/Playoffs/Finals factored in I would not put Wilt top 5 in scoring.

Not in order after MJ; West, Abdul-Jabbar, Bryant, Baylor would be my top 5.

[Prometheus]

Wilt was a 'scorer' for 7 seasons of his career. And in that time, he raised the bar so high nobody could touch it, not even MJ. Other great scorers only top Wilt in scoring longevity, due to playing their entire careers with a role of scoring points but nobody touches Wilt in ability to put the ball in the hoop. Wilt as a scorer averaged over 40 points per game. 40. He peaked at over 50 points per game. MJ or any other player in NBA history as a scorer averaged much less. Sorry, not comparable. Nobody could score like Wilt when it was Wilt's job.

by acknowledging that he played a significant portion of his career in a non-scoring role, you are unwittingly implying that he should be considered less of a scorer and not be ranked #1 here

[SamuraiSWISH]

Regular season/Playoffs/Finals factored in I would not put Wilt top 5 in scoring.

Not in order after MJ; West, Abdul-Jabbar, Bryant, Baylor would be my top 5.
All Lakers except for MJ? No Iverson, or LeBron? The latter both have technically averaged more points for their career in both the regular season, and post season than Kobe. They belong in the conversation. Iverson has more scoring titles, and LeBron has just one less than Kobe.

[Black and White]

All Lakers except for MJ? No Iverson, or LeBron?

LeBron isn't a top 5 scorer of all time, he isn't even a better scorer than Durant this season

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron isn't a top 5 scorer of all time, he isn't even a better scorer than Durant this season
Everyone knows I have issues with his character, mentality, etc but a career 28 ppg scorer in the regular season, and post season doesn't belong in the conversation at the very least? Really?

[Prometheus]

All Lakers except for MJ? No Iverson, or LeBron? The latter both have technically averaged more points for their career in both the regular season, and post season than Kobe. They belong in the conversation. Iverson has more scoring titles, and LeBron has just one less than Kobe.

EIGHTY ONE POINTS

[CavaliersFTW]

by acknowledging that he played a significant portion of his career in a non-scoring role, you are unwittingly implying that he should be considered less of a scorer and not be ranked #1 here
In your own little world maybe. Realistically it means exactly what it said it means, when Wilt was a scorer he was the best there ever was at it, period. The fact that he did other things the rest of his career is a testimant to his versatility, he could play the center position any way you could imagine and do it at a magnificent, many times unmatchable level. Few played defense like Wilt could when Wilt's role was a defender, none (big men) could pass like Wilt when Wilt's role was to facilitate from the post, and none could score like Wilt when Wilt's job was to score.

He was unmatched in scoring ability when that was his role.

And he was versatile.

That makes what he could do offensively more impressive, not less impressive.

[SamuraiSWISH]

EIGHTY ONE POINTS
David Robinson 71 points !!!

Tony Delk 50 points !!!

Sleepy Floyd 51 points on Magic Johnson, in the playoffs !!!

[NumberSix]

81 point game says hi
You suck a lot of Kobe dick for an alleged Celtics fan (who NEVER talks about the Celtics).

[Black and White]

Everyone knows I have issues with his character, mentality, etc but a career 28 ppg scorer in the regular season, and post season doesn't belong in the conversation at the very least? Really?

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe
Bird
Baylor

to name a few are in the discussion, LeBron can be argued in the top 8-15 I think

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe
Bird
Baylor

to name a few are in the discussion, LeBron can be argued in the top 8-15 I think
Iverson?

[Black and White]

You suck a lot of Kobe dick for an alleged Celtics fan (who NEVER talks about the Celtics).

I talk about the Celtics all the time, you just need to look at the Celtics thread lol. But when someone calls LeBron a better scorer than Kobe you have to call them out.

[Black and White]

Iverson?

Yea him too, I said just to name a few, there is many more names that can go on the list, I also think Durant will end up there somewhere too

[Joyner82reload]

It will be Jordan when it's all said and done. Kevin Durant will end up the GOAT scorer. He's likely going to end up career around 28 ppg average and 61 TS% while also possibly being the all time leading scorer/surpassing Jordan in scoring titles.

[Prometheus]

f'real though, all things considered, LeBron > Kobe as a player. most of us are aware of this by now. but if you really are trying to argue that LeBron > Kobe as a SCORER, then you pretty much concede that you only are a stat sheet watcher and do not truly understand the game of basketball. it's just as ridiculous as saying kobe > LeBron as a passer

[Black and White]

f'real though, all things considered, LeBron > Kobe as a player. most of us are aware of this by now. but if you really are trying to argue that LeBron > Kobe as a SCORER, then you pretty much concede that you only are a stat sheet watcher and do not truly understand the game of basketball. it's just as ridiculous as saying kobe > LeBron as a passer

This is basically how it works, just to clear things up:

LeBron > Kobe as a player

Kobes career > LeBrons career (so far)

Kobe > LeBron as a scorer

fair?

[Deuce Bigalow]

All Lakers except for MJ? No Iverson, or LeBron? The latter both have technically averaged more points for their career in both the regular season, and post season than Kobe. They belong in the conversation. Iverson has more scoring titles, and LeBron has just one less than Kobe.
Lebron has not played past his prime yet so his averages are high, but he doesn't have enough high scoring games yet - 40pt, 50pt games.
Don't know about Iverson, will check his numbers to see where he stands.

[Prometheus]

This is basically how it works, just to clear things up:

LeBron > Kobe as a player

Kobes career > LeBrons career (so far)

Kobe > LeBron as a scorer

fair?

100% accurate

[NumberSix]

This is basically how it works, just to clear things up:

LeBron > Kobe as a player

Kobes career > LeBrons career (so far)

Kobe > LeBron as a scorer

fair?
Not really.

At the he end of the day, if LeBron had a career ending injury tonight, he still finishes his career with an equal amount of FMVPs, 3 more MVPs and better career numbers. Career already goes to LeBron. There's not really anything to debate.


As for Kobe being a better scorer? It's debatable, but fair enough. Saying Kobe is the better scorer is reasonable. Nothing to get mad about.

[Black and White]

100% accurate

:cheers:

[Black and White]

Not really.

At the he end of the day, if LeBron had a career ending injury tonight, he still finishes his career with an equal amount of FMVPs, 3 more MVPs and better career numbers. Career already goes to LeBron. There's not really anything to debate.


As for Kobe being a better scorer? It's debatable, but fair enough. Saying Kobe is the better scorer is reasonable. Nothing to get mad about.

I would say that Kobe's body of work still ranks over LeBrons, the rings carry more weight than the MVP awards. LeBron should finish with a better career though, still remains to be seen.

[Prometheus]

Not really.

At the he end of the day, if LeBron had a career ending injury tonight, he still finishes his career with an equal amount of FMVPs, 3 more MVPs and better career numbers. Career already goes to LeBron. There's not really anything to debate.


As for Kobe being a better scorer? It's debatable, but fair enough. Saying Kobe is the better scorer is reasonable. Nothing to get mad about.

dude I'm a huge LeBron fan and your stanhood makes us look bad. more MVPs is worthless (as evidenced by nash 2 > shaq 1) and the career averages are close enough to be a wash (especially when you consider that kobe's first few years were as a bench player) and don't use the "he wasn't good enough to be a starter" argument, because I could easily cite larry brown benching LeBron in the Olympics and say it was a coaching issue. seriously, I stated that LeBron is a better player than kobe, and I like him better. but when you start arguing that LeBron has already surpassed him I career accomplishments, all I hear is "my tea's gone cold, I'm wondering why..."

[moe94]

I would say that Kobe's body of work still ranks over LeBrons, the rings carry more weight than the MVP awards. LeBron should finish with a better career though, still remains to be seen.

It depends what you mean by that. In Kobe's case, sure, but not always. MVP is the biggest individual accolade in the entire sport.

[NumberSix]

I would say that Kobe's body of work still ranks over LeBrons, the rings carry more weight than the MVP awards. LeBron should finish with a better career though, still remains to be seen.
No they don't. You're only being selective with that to back up what you want to be true. I don't see you out here saying Bosh's career > Garnett's career.

[Black and White]

No they don't. You're only being selective with that to back up what you want to be true. I don't see you out here saying Bosh's career > Garnett's career.

Let me rephrase that then, in this case Kobes rings carry more weight than LeBrons MVP's, would you say Derrick Rose > LeBron???

[NumberSix]

Let me rephrase that then, in this case Kobes rings carry more weight than LeBrons MVP's, would you say Derrick Rose > LeBron???
1>4?

[Black and White]

1>4?

That year I mean, Derrick Rose, Nash etc are examples of the MVP award being media preference, you can't say they all carry weight over rings

[Deuce Bigalow]

Added Shaq, Malone, Lebron, Iverson, and Gervin's scoring numbers.

[JohnFreeman]

Hakeem

[Round Mound]

Kareem or Shaq

[La Frescobaldi]

if you go purely by stats then you already have all that data programmed , sifted, and displayed.

Kevin Durant is great in this NBA with its girly rules, but there is no possibility he could do what he does in any league prior to 2005:
http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html
2004-05
• New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.

If you go by what guy can flat score, in any situation, at any time, against any one, any team, any era, anywhere.... then my answer (after the big 3, Wilt, KAJ & MJ who live in their own circle separate from the rest of the world) is probably gonna be Bob McAdoo.

Big 3 excluded, when he was in Buffalo Mac was unstoppable like nobody else I ever saw.

[Angel Face]

I'll pick Kobe, has great post game, great footwork, mid range, and can knockdown 3s. He's a threat everywhere and has a lot of tricks at his disposal.

Kobe Bryant impossible 3 pointer compilation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDWmwWdfrXc)
Kobe Bryant foot work &Skill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpuswrs-Svg)
Koe Bryant Fade Away Mix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV_JpwFp9jA)

How Great is our Gawd? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY9HjNWbJvA)

:lol :bowdown:

[bizil]

I see awesome legendary names mentioned. When I think unstoppable scorers, the first three names I think about are MJ, Wilt, and Kareem. MJ has the all time scoring average record, Wilt the single game and single season PPG record, and Kareem the all time points per game record and the most unstoppable weapon ever in the skyhook. U could say any one of those three are the best and I wouldn't argue. So 2nd best would naturally come from that group.

I think one name that needs to be shown more love is Nique. His sustained dominance scoring the rock and being the highest scoring SF of all time in terms of career points needs to be shown more love! Certainly in his era, Nique has a case as being the second greatest scorer behind MJ.

[bizil]

In terms of guys who have the best scoring skillsets for perimeter players:

MJ
Kobe
Bird
Gervin
West
Melo
Durant
T-Mac
Pierce
King
Big O
Mitch Richmond

And my sleeper pick is Mark Aguirre for tremendous scoring skillsets. English and Dantley had beast scoring skillsets too!

[SHAQisGOAT]

In terms of guys who have the best scoring skillsets for perimeter players:

MJ
Kobe
Bird
Gervin
West
Melo
Durant
T-Mac
Pierce
King
Big O
Mitch Richmond

And my sleeper pick is Mark Aguirre for tremendous scoring skillsets. English and Dantley had beast scoring skillsets too!

Good list, and yes English and Dantley deserve to be there, and I wouldn't hold Richmond in such high regard even though he was really good and underrated. Don't forget AI, Baylor and Barry though, plus Wilkins. And anyone can say what they want but Lebron is one of the greatest scorers ever, I'm not saying top3 or top5 or whatever just saying he's one of the greatest ever.
Oh and Pistol Pete gotta be there too, average shot-selection and cared more about the show but a terrific scorer anyways, great shooter from anywhere in anyway, inventive, great ball-handler with a great touch around the rim.. he could go off on any given night, that was a bad white boy.

[bizil]

Good list, and yes English and Dantley deserve to be there, and I wouldn't hold Richmond in such high regard even though he was really good and underrated. Don't forget AI, Baylor and Barry though, plus Wilkins. And anyone can say what they want but Lebron is one of the greatest scorers ever, I'm not saying top3 or top5 or whatever just saying he's one of the greatest ever.
Oh and Pistol Pete gotta be there too, average shot-selection and cared more about the show but a terrific scorer anyways, great shooter from anywhere in anyway, inventive, great ball-handler with a great touch around the rim.. he could go off on any given night, that was a bad white boy.

In terms of Mitch, I was talking his total scoring skillset and not his scoring overall. For example, Mitch has more tools in his scoring toolbox than Iverson and Baylor. But those two are better scorers. Now u are correct on Barry and I forgot to include him for total scoring skillset. And u are right about Pete too. Nique is my favorite player of all time. Arguably the best SF ever on the block and slashing to the rack. But his midrange game and three point shit wasn't great, even though it was good (three point over time) or very good (midrange became very good over time).

When I think scoring skillset, I think midrange, post game, three ball, slashing, and footwork as the key elements. Take Bird for example. He was great at all except slashing to the rack. Take Kobe or MJ. Great at all except three point shooting. Ditto for Gervin too. If u look at Mitch, he had a great midrange game, great slashing, great post game, and great three ball all in one. Now he wasn't as dominant or as great scoring as an MJ or Kobe. But his total scoring skillset was frankly one of the greatest the SG spot has ever seen. So in terms of total scoring scoring skillset at SG, Mitch was talented enough to be mentioned near the top. But in terms of the bottom line WHICH IS DOMINANCE AND RESULTS, a Mitch Richmond or hell a Joe Johnson for that matter aren't on the level or tier of MJ, Kobe, T-Mac, or a Gervin.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt was a 'scorer' for 7 seasons of his career. And in that time, he raised the bar so high nobody could touch it, not even MJ. Other great scorers only top Wilt in scoring longevity, due to playing their entire careers with a role of scoring points but nobody touches Wilt in ability to put the ball in the hoop. Wilt as a scorer averaged over 40 points per game. 40. He peaked at over 50 points per game. MJ or any other player in NBA history as a scorer averaged much less. Sorry, not comparable. Nobody could score like Wilt when it was Wilt's job.
That's cool and all but we need to factor in the Playoffs and Finals. Wilt's playoff ppg his first 7 years was lower than MJ's career average and Wilt's finals ppg in his first 7 years is lower than MJ's, West's, and Barry's career Finals average. Compare ANY scoring stat in the playoffs and finals and Wilt is not ahead of MJ, he isn't even close. I know you like regular season and will probably post that 60 point game pic, but in the playoffs; ppg, points, 25pt, 30pt, 40pt, 50pt, 60pt games, playoff scoring titles, points leader MJ has the edge over Wilt.

[JohnFreeman]

http://i.minus.com/iHXWVpqaZYXb2.gif

http://youtu.be/_tkFcu_CdwU?t=1m30s

As far as #1 (Wilt) it isn't even close. But the battle for #2 is tough.

Scoring over 5 foot white guys must be tough

[jaybee682]

My Top 5 scorers

1. Wilt Chamberlain - We will probably never see stat line of 50.4ppg and 44.8 ppg or/and a 100 point game. Just godlike number no matter the era.

2.Kareem Abdul Jabbar - The most dependable bball player of all time. The greatest go to move ever. Crazy Longevity 24 ppg at 38 yrs old.

3.Michael Jordan - All around beast. Nothing he could not on the court. Played much bigger than 6'6.

4.Larry Bird - If not for playing on a deep Celtics squad, Larry would've put up between 35 to 40 ppg easily.

5.Kobe Bryant - Everybody says Kobe is not efficient enough, takes dumb shots, whatever. There's nobody more entertaining than kobe when he's on fire. And the man is 2nd all time in playoff points. Can't hate that.

[KobeMagic]

1.Wilt
2.MJ
3.Sha
4.Kareem/LeBron
5.Bird
Whoever says otherwise is a straight up lying:coleman:


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[kshutts1]

It's not really debatable when you look at it from a pace normalized perspective, where Jordan dominates the list of the best scoring seasons of all time. Let's not even get into how MJ takes a dump on Wilt as a postseason scorer:

http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/top-scoring-rates-regular-season.jpg

I love this graphic... but I would rather see the TS% relative to league average be changed to a comparison of PPG relative to league average. Or, rather, relative to second place.

That would end any "pace" argument, IMO, as it would show the vast difference that exists between Chamberlain (who clearly benefited from pace) and the runner-up, who somehow did not.

[kshutts1]

I love this graphic... but I would rather see the TS% relative to league average be changed to a comparison of PPG relative to league average. Or, rather, relative to second place.

That would end any "pace" argument, IMO, as it would show the vast difference that exists between Chamberlain (who clearly benefited from pace) and the runner-up, who somehow did not.

Just glanced at scoring leaders vs 2nd and third place on a year-to-year basis. Glanced, didn't do an analysis...

And my above point seems to have been proven wrong. There are a few years of Chamberlain's scoring where he's obviously so far above his competition... namely his 44ppg and 50ppg seasons... but the rest seem to be standard separation from 2nd and 3rd place. Maybe even a lesser separation, since 4ppg seems to be (on glancing) the normal separation between first and second place, yet Wilt's era has higher scoring (aka: Less % difference).

Still can't overlook those two godly years for Chamberlain though, but it's not quite the open-and-shut case I expected it to be.

[Psileas]

Just glanced at scoring leaders vs 2nd and third place on a year-to-year basis. Glanced, didn't do an analysis...

And my above point seems to have been proven wrong. There are a few years of Chamberlain's scoring where he's obviously so far above his competition... namely his 44ppg and 50ppg seasons... but the rest seem to be standard separation from 2nd and 3rd place. Maybe even a lesser separation, since 4ppg seems to be (on glancing) the normal separation between first and second place, yet Wilt's era has higher scoring (aka: Less % difference).

Still can't overlook those two godly years for Chamberlain though, but it's not quite the open-and-shut case I expected it to be.

The average separation since 1955 (minus Wilt) is not as high as 4 ppg, it's only 3 ppg. To be exact, it's 31.2 ppg vs 28.1 ppg (11%). This year, Durant seems to be winning the scoring title easily, and the margin is still less than 4 ppg. As a percentage, the separation is 14.6%.

Jordan's separation:

8.1 ppg (27.9%)
4.3 ppg (13.8%)
3.4 ppg (11.7%)
2.6 ppg (8.4%)
2.4 pgg (8.2%)
2.0 ppg (7.1%)
2.7 ppg (9.0%)
3.5 ppg (13%)
2.3 ppg (8.4%)
0.4 ppg (1.4%)

Wilt's separation:

6.4 ppg (20.5%)
3.6 ppg (10.3%)
18.8 ppg (59.5%)
10.8 ppg (31.8%)
5.5 ppg (17.5%)
3.7 ppg (11.9%)
2.2 ppg (7.0%)

Wilt separated himself more than the average every time except his last scoring title.


Scoring over 5 foot white guys must be tough

The irony is ludicrous, since Wilt scored actually vs the tallest man of the group. And Jordan (and Baylor) also scored vs white guys. Nice try...

[KG215]

I think you almost absolutely have to split perimeter players and post players up when having this discussion.

[LAZERUSS]

Thanks for sharing that. I was too lazy to find all of that. I respect either answer, but I'll provide my perspective.

Regular season points
Jordan- 32,292
Chamberlain- 31,419
Chamberlain would easily have more if he did not take a back seat to his teammates late in his career. Chamberlain took a back seat role-especially his final 2 seasons-while playing for a championship contender and MJ jacked up shots on a scrub team his final 2 years. Before anybody says that Wilt shot less because of being incapable, he led the league in fg% his final 2 seasons including a super impressive 72.7% his final season. He backed off because as he aged, he went for more efficiency while Baylor and West (2 other top 10 scorers of all time) started stepping up. Jordan had Pippen, but Pippen was not near the level of scorers that either of them were.

Regular season PPG
Jordan- 30.12
Wilt- 30.07
Again Wilt took a back seat role for many seasons that would have altered this. The 0.05ppg is so miniscule anyway, that this is essentially meaningless in terms of comparison.

30-point games Regular season
Jordan- 562
Chamberlain- 515
I assume this means 30 or greater rather than games scored between 30-39 points. Chamberlain would again easily surpass this if he didn't take a back seat role. Jordan never averaged fewer than 18 shots in a game. Wilt did 6 times. There is the flip side in which Wilt had many seasons with a ridiculous amount of fg attempts that I won't ignore. It is hard to tell who got the advantage here. Jordan spending a majority of his career shooting over 22 shots per game or Wilt having 6 seasons shooting over 28 shots but 6 seasons shooting under 18 (2 seasons under 10).

Scoring Titles
Jordan- 10
Wilt- 7
Easily covered by Wilt willingly taking a backseat role. Every season he didn't take a backseat he had the scoring title and could have easily continued. His first season taking the backseat in which he only shot 14 shots per game, he still scored 24ppg.

Playoff points
Jordan- 5,987
Chamberlain- 3,607
I'll cover in Playoff PPG

Playoff PPG
Jordan- 33.4
Chamberlain- 22.5
Their Playoff PPG was comparable until Wilt took a back seat. Jordan was always expected to carry the scoring load with a good scorer, but Wilt had 2 other top 10 scorers on his team that he allowed to score more and more as he aged in Baylor and West. Jordan having to share the ball with Pippen is nowhere near comparable to Wilt sharing having to share with Baylor and West. Also, some series Wilt had to go against the arguable GOAT defender in Bill Russell.

Scoring Titles Playoffs
Jordan- 10
Chamberlain- 1
Probably the best argument in favor of Jordan. Wilt had 6 playoffs where he shot enough that he should have had a shot at this, while Jordan succeeded in 10 of his 13 attempts. Although Jordan's never had to compete for this title with a Baylor level scorer, who had 4 times won this title, while frequently having to go against a Bill Russell level defender.

30-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 109
Wilt- 42
Jordan had much more games shooting enough to score 30. Jordan shot 25 shots per game in his playoff career, Wilt shot 17. Jordan averaged between 22-32 shots per game in the playoffs for 12 playoff runs, while Wilt shot 22-32 for 5 playoff runs, which tended to be shorter playoff runs, meaning way less games shooting enough to score 30 or more.

40-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 38
Chamberlain- 13
See 30-point Playoff games.

50-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 8
Chamberlain- 4
See 30-point Playoff games.

60-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 1
Chamberlain- 0
See 30-point Playoff games.

Points Finals
Jordan- 1,176
Chamberlain- 652
Jordan played in more Finals games and shot more in them.

Finals PPG
Jordan- 33.6
Chamberlain- 18.6
Jordan shot way more in Finals games.

30-point games Finals
Jordan- 23
Chamberlain- 4
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.

40-point games Finals
Jordan- 6
Chamberlain- 1
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.

50-point games Finals
Jordan- 1
Chamberlain- 0
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.



So, essentially Jordan's scoring is exaggerated by the number of games that he was the go to guy since he didn't have to share the ball with Baylor/West level scorers. Wilt's stats were exaggerated for a few seasons by him getting a ridiculous # of touches, but then spend more of his career letting those 2 other top 10 all time scorers have the ball as well.

What are Jordan's total 40, 50, and 60+ scoring games in comparison to Wilt's? Wilt also shot a better fg% for his career and led the league 9 times compared to Jordan's 0. He did this 2 times, which Jordan did 0. Unlike many modern players who may lead the league in fg% because of limited shooting when it is absolutely the easiest time to score possible, Wilt simultaneously was the highest fg% and ppg leader. That is an impressive feat that absolutely cannot be ignored. Also, I have to go all Kobe fan style on you and also point out the 100 point game.

:applause: :applause:

And welcome aboard...

[Deuce Bigalow]

The average separation since 1955 (minus Wilt) is not as high as 4 ppg, it's only 3 ppg. To be exact, it's 31.2 ppg vs 28.1 ppg (11%). This year, Durant seems to be winning the scoring title easily, and the margin is still less than 4 ppg. As a percentage, the separation is 14.6%.

Jordan's separation:

8.1 ppg (27.9%)
4.3 ppg (13.8%)
3.4 ppg (11.7%)
2.6 ppg (8.4%)
2.4 pgg (8.2%)
2.0 ppg (7.1%)
2.7 ppg (9.0%)
3.5 ppg (13%)
2.3 ppg (8.4%)
0.4 ppg (1.4%)

Wilt's separation:

6.4 ppg (20.5%)
3.6 ppg (10.3%)
18.8 ppg (59.5%)
10.8 ppg (31.8%)
5.5 ppg (17.5%)
3.7 ppg (11.9%)
2.2 ppg (7.0%)

Wilt separated himself more than the average every time except his last scoring title.



The irony is ludicrous, since Wilt scored actually vs the tallest man of the group. And Jordan (and Baylor) also scored vs white guys. Nice try...
Now do the playoffs! :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

I'll do it for you

Playoffs

MJ
15.1 ppg (52.8%)
6.5 ppg (22.3%)
5.4 ppg (18.4%)
7.3 ppg (24.8%)
1.4 ppg (5.1%)
5.4 ppg (18.6%)
3.6 ppg (11.4%)
4.2 ppg (15.8%)
0.1 ppg (3.2%)
1.9 ppg (6.2%)

Wilt
3.5 ppg (11.2%)

[mr.big35]

Kevin Durant will surpass them all

[ssginc]

Thanks for sharing that. I was too lazy to find all of that. I respect either answer, but I'll provide my perspective.

Regular season points
Jordan- 32,292
Chamberlain- 31,419
Chamberlain would easily have more if he did not take a back seat to his teammates late in his career. Chamberlain took a back seat role-especially his final 2 seasons-while playing for a championship contender and MJ jacked up shots on a scrub team his final 2 years. Before anybody says that Wilt shot less because of being incapable, he led the league in fg% his final 2 seasons including a super impressive 72.7% his final season. He backed off because as he aged, he went for more efficiency while Baylor and West (2 other top 10 scorers of all time) started stepping up. Jordan had Pippen, but Pippen was not near the level of scorers that either of them were.

Regular season PPG
Jordan- 30.12
Wilt- 30.07
Again Wilt took a back seat role for many seasons that would have altered this. The 0.05ppg is so miniscule anyway, that this is essentially meaningless in terms of comparison.

30-point games Regular season
Jordan- 562
Chamberlain- 515
I assume this means 30 or greater rather than games scored between 30-39 points. Chamberlain would again easily surpass this if he didn't take a back seat role. Jordan never averaged fewer than 18 shots in a game. Wilt did 6 times. There is the flip side in which Wilt had many seasons with a ridiculous amount of fg attempts that I won't ignore. It is hard to tell who got the advantage here. Jordan spending a majority of his career shooting over 22 shots per game or Wilt having 6 seasons shooting over 28 shots but 6 seasons shooting under 18 (2 seasons under 10).

Scoring Titles
Jordan- 10
Wilt- 7
Easily covered by Wilt willingly taking a backseat role. Every season he didn't take a backseat he had the scoring title and could have easily continued. His first season taking the backseat in which he only shot 14 shots per game, he still scored 24ppg.

Playoff points
Jordan- 5,987
Chamberlain- 3,607
I'll cover in Playoff PPG

Playoff PPG
Jordan- 33.4
Chamberlain- 22.5
Their Playoff PPG was comparable until Wilt took a back seat. Jordan was always expected to carry the scoring load with a good scorer, but Wilt had 2 other top 10 scorers on his team that he allowed to score more and more as he aged in Baylor and West. Jordan having to share the ball with Pippen is nowhere near comparable to Wilt sharing having to share with Baylor and West. Also, some series Wilt had to go against the arguable GOAT defender in Bill Russell.

Scoring Titles Playoffs
Jordan- 10
Chamberlain- 1
Probably the best argument in favor of Jordan. Wilt had 6 playoffs where he shot enough that he should have had a shot at this, while Jordan succeeded in 10 of his 13 attempts. Although Jordan's never had to compete for this title with a Baylor level scorer, who had 4 times won this title, while frequently having to go against a Bill Russell level defender.

30-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 109
Wilt- 42
Jordan had much more games shooting enough to score 30. Jordan shot 25 shots per game in his playoff career, Wilt shot 17. Jordan averaged between 22-32 shots per game in the playoffs for 12 playoff runs, while Wilt shot 22-32 for 5 playoff runs, which tended to be shorter playoff runs, meaning way less games shooting enough to score 30 or more.

40-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 38
Chamberlain- 13
See 30-point Playoff games.

50-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 8
Chamberlain- 4
See 30-point Playoff games.

60-point games Playoffs
Jordan- 1
Chamberlain- 0
See 30-point Playoff games.

Points Finals
Jordan- 1,176
Chamberlain- 652
Jordan played in more Finals games and shot more in them.

Finals PPG
Jordan- 33.6
Chamberlain- 18.6
Jordan shot way more in Finals games.

30-point games Finals
Jordan- 23
Chamberlain- 4
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.

40-point games Finals
Jordan- 6
Chamberlain- 1
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.

50-point games Finals
Jordan- 1
Chamberlain- 0
Jordan shot way more and played more Finals games.



So, essentially Jordan's scoring is exaggerated by the number of games that he was the go to guy since he didn't have to share the ball with Baylor/West level scorers. Wilt's stats were exaggerated for a few seasons by him getting a ridiculous # of touches, but then spend more of his career letting those 2 other top 10 all time scorers have the ball as well.

What are Jordan's total 40, 50, and 60+ scoring games in comparison to Wilt's? Wilt also shot a better fg% for his career and led the league 9 times compared to Jordan's 0. He did this 2 times, which Jordan did 0. Unlike many modern players who may lead the league in fg% because of limited shooting when it is absolutely the easiest time to score possible, Wilt simultaneously was the highest fg% and ppg leader. That is an impressive feat that absolutely cannot be ignored. Also, I have to go all Kobe fan style on you and also point out the 100 point game.


The mere fact that Wilt "took a back seat" sort of disqualifies him from greatest scorer of all-time because the greatest scorer of all-time wouldn't take a back seat. Period. Also Chamberlain's scoring in the playoffs declined significantly (relative to his regular season averages) his entire career. Lastly, his scoring took a nose dive as far back as the 66-67 season (2 years before landing in LA), so the "Wilt took a back seat because of West and Baylor" argument is sorta moot.

That being said, Wilt had the greatest regular season scoring peak ever; however when you look at the players' entire careers (regular season and playoffs / Finals) there is no argument to justify any player other than Jordan as the greatest scorer ever.

[PsychoBe]

samaki walker

[jongib369]

The mere fact that Wilt "took a back seat" sort of disqualifies him from greatest scorer of all-time because the greatest scorer of all-time wouldn't take a back seat. Period. Also Chamberlain's scoring in the playoffs declined significantly (relative to his regular season averages) his entire career. Lastly, his scoring took a nose dive as far back as the 66-67 season (2 years before landing in LA), so the "Wilt took a back seat because of West and Baylor" argument is sorta moot.

That being said, Wilt had the greatest regular season scoring peak ever; however when you look at the players' entire careers (regular season and playoffs / Finals) there is no argument to justify any player other than Jordan as the greatest scorer ever.
So you have to be selfish and not do whats best for the team?

[ssginc]

So you have to be selfish and not do whats best for the team?


If taking a back seat to 2 other teammates is what's best for the team then you can't possibly be considered the best scorer of all time.

[Psileas]

The mere fact that Wilt "took a back seat" sort of disqualifies him from greatest scorer of all-time because the greatest scorer of all-time wouldn't take a back seat. Period. Also Chamberlain's scoring in the playoffs declined significantly (relative to his regular season averages) his entire career. Lastly, his scoring took a nose dive as far back as the 66-67 season (2 years before landing in LA), so the "Wilt took a back seat because of West and Baylor" argument is sorta moot.

That being said, Wilt had the greatest regular season scoring peak ever; however when you look at the players' entire careers (regular season and playoffs / Finals) there is no argument to justify any player other than Jordan as the greatest scorer ever.

Wilt took a backseat in order to make his team more unpredictable and versatile offensively and score at a FG efficiency never seen before, which he did. It doesn't disqualify him from the greatest scorer discussion. Rick Barry himself claimed that Wilt could easily have won his 8th scoring title in a row if he cared to do it.
BTW, do you consider Rodman the overall GOAT rebounder (instead of "only" having the GOAT peak), knowing that he wasn't even used as a rebounding machine in his first years in the league and wasn't a 35+ mpg starter from the get go?

[ssginc]

Wilt took a backseat in order to make his team more unpredictable and versatile offensively and score at a FG efficiency never seen before, which he did. It doesn't disqualify him from the greatest scorer discussion. Rick Barry himself claimed that Wilt could easily have won his 8th scoring title in a row if he cared to do it.
BTW, do you consider Rodman the overall GOAT rebounder (instead of "only" having the GOAT peak), knowing that he wasn't even used as a rebounding machine in his first years in the league and wasn't a 35+ mpg starter from the get go?


Jordan "could have" averaged 40 PPG for his career "if" he wanted to do so, so that point is moot.

I consider Rodman the GOAT rebounder pound-for-pound, but if he started to defer those duties to 2 other teammates then he'd lose that status.

[La Frescobaldi]

Jordan "could have" averaged 40 PPG for his career "if" he wanted to do so, so that point is moot.

I consider Rodman the GOAT rebounder pound-for-pound, but if he started to defer those duties to 2 other teammates then he'd lose that status.

lulz straw man much?

[ssginc]

lulz straw man much?


You mean like, Wilt "could have" won 8 straight Scoring titles "if" he wanted to?

Bottom line Wilt took a back seat to inferior scoring teammates. Repeat that statement out loud 5 times then realize how absurd it is to assert that Wilt is the GOAT scorer.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Best jan 2014 poster so far ssginc :applause:

[La Frescobaldi]

You mean like, Wilt "could have" won 8 straight Scoring titles "if" he wanted to?

Bottom line Wilt took a back seat to inferior scorers. Repeat that statement out loud 5 times then realize how absurd it is to assert that the GOAT scorer is someone who takes a back seat to (some times) multiple teammates.

No that isn't what I mean.

*************************************
*************************************
The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:
Person 1 has position X.
Person 2 disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. The position Y is a distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.
Quoting an opponent's words out of context—i.e., choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[4]
Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then denying that person's arguments—thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[3]
Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
Person 2 attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This reasoning is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position does not address the actual position. The ostensible argument that Person 2 makes has the form:

"Don't support X, because X has an unacceptable (or absurd or contradictory or terrible) consequence."

However, the actual form of the argument is:

"Don't support X, because Y has an unacceptable (or absurd or contradictory or terrible) consequence."

This argument doesn't make sense; it is a non sequitur. Person 2 relies on the audience not noticing this.
*************************************************
*************************************************

your post should be added to the list of examples in wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[ssginc]

No that isn't what I mean.

*************************************
*************************************
The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:
Person 1 has position X.
Person 2 disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. The position Y is a distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.
Quoting an opponent's words out of context—i.e., choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[4]
Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then denying that person's arguments—thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[3]
Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
Person 2 attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This reasoning is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position does not address the actual position. The ostensible argument that Person 2 makes has the form:

"Don't support X, because X has an unacceptable (or absurd or contradictory or terrible) consequence."

However, the actual form of the argument is:

"Don't support X, because Y has an unacceptable (or absurd or contradictory or terrible) consequence."

This argument doesn't make sense; it is a non sequitur. Person 2 relies on the audience not noticing this.
*************************************************
*************************************************

your post should be added to the list of examples in wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


Whatever :rolleyes:

Bottom line the Bulls won 6 Championships with Jordan dominating the scoring. Wilt won 2 rings as a 2nd/3rd fiddle.

Explain how Wilt can be considered the GOAT scorer.

He can't. Not when the other guy in the debate is Jordan.

[Psileas]

Jordan "could have" averaged 40 PPG for his career "if" he wanted to do so, so that point is moot.

I consider Rodman the GOAT rebounder pound-for-pound, but if he started to defer those duties to 2 other teammates then he'd lose that status.


lulz straw man much?

Exactly. LOL at equating Wilt winning an 8th scoring title with Jordan averaging 40 ppg in his career, which he never came really close to do for even a single season.

There's no such thing as "pound for pound" or "inch for inch" rebounding. I asked this in a straight way. Rodman didn't "start to defer", he was just told by his own coach to play a more perimeter-oriented game early on in his career, which should not be something any coach would ask from any player with GOAT rebounder potential, except maybe if his perimeter game was at Jordan's/Magic's level.
And, in case you ignore this, Wilt didn't start deferring himself, either, he was told by his coach to do so and, after initial disagreements, decided to give it a try.


Bottom line Wilt took a back seat to inferior scorers. Repeat that statement out loud 5 times then realize how absurd it is to assert that the GOAT scorer is someone who takes a back seat to (some times) multiple teammates.

Thank you. Repeat the bolded 5 times, then realize that being the GOAT scorer can be used in sneakier and more effective ways than just the predictable way of taking 30 shots and possibly freezing your teammates. Ask 2006 Kobe. After averaging 35.4 ppg, people expected from him a 35+ ppg series against Phoenix and a quick exit, yet, the best scorer in the game suddenly became a team player and the Lakers found themselves one breath away from knocking the Suns out with Kobe averaging only 23 ppg. That was the game's best scorer back then playing smart basketball and bringing unexpected results.

[ssginc]

Exactly. LOL at equating Wilt winning an 8th scoring title with Jordan averaging 40 ppg in his career, which he never came really close to do for even a single season.

There's no such thing as "pound for pound" or "inch for inch" rebounding. I asked this in a straight way. Rodman didn't "start to defer", he was just told by his own coach to play a more perimeter-oriented game early on in his career, which should not be something any coach would ask from any player with GOAT rebounder potential, except maybe if his perimeter game was at Jordan's/Magic's level.
And, in case you ignore this, Wilt didn't start deferring himself, either, he was told by his coach to do so and, after initial disagreements, decided to give it a try.



Thank you. Repeat the bolded 5 times, then realize that being the GOAT scorer can be used in sneakier and more effective ways than just the predictable way of taking 30 shots and possibly freezing your teammates. Ask 2006 Kobe. After averaging 35.4 ppg, people expected from him a 35+ ppg series against Phoenix and a quick exit, yet, the best scorer in the game suddenly became a team player and the Lakers found themselves one breath away from knocking the Suns out with Kobe averaging only 23 ppg. That was the game's best scorer back then playing smart basketball and bringing unexpected results.


All that writing, and all the coulda-shoulda-woulda's, and yet at the end of the day Jordan still owns a higher scoring average in the regular season, playoffs overall and Finals, 3 more scoring titles (in 13 full sesasons to Wilt's 14), and more career regular season, playoffs and finals points scored.

Wilt's only case against Jordan is a 7-year peak where he averaged 39.6 PPG vs. Jordan's best 7 year stretch of 33.2. But was Wilt really "better", considering he shot .511% from the field (vs. .518% for MJ) and took 31.4 FGA per game vs. 24.2 for MJ (basically Wilt took 7.2 more shots to score 6.4 more PPG)?

That's debatable for sure, where as Jordan's aforementioned advantages leave nothing for debate.

Jordan is the GOAT scorer. Period.

[kshutts1]

The average separation since 1955 (minus Wilt) is not as high as 4 ppg, it's only 3 ppg. To be exact, it's 31.2 ppg vs 28.1 ppg (11%). This year, Durant seems to be winning the scoring title easily, and the margin is still less than 4 ppg. As a percentage, the separation is 14.6%.

Jordan's separation:

8.1 ppg (27.9%)
4.3 ppg (13.8%)
3.4 ppg (11.7%)
2.6 ppg (8.4%)
2.4 pgg (8.2%)
2.0 ppg (7.1%)
2.7 ppg (9.0%)
3.5 ppg (13%)
2.3 ppg (8.4%)
0.4 ppg (1.4%)

Wilt's separation:

6.4 ppg (20.5%)
3.6 ppg (10.3%)
18.8 ppg (59.5%)
10.8 ppg (31.8%)
5.5 ppg (17.5%)
3.7 ppg (11.9%)
2.2 ppg (7.0%)

Wilt separated himself more than the average every time except his last scoring title.



The irony is ludicrous, since Wilt scored actually vs the tallest man of the group. And Jordan (and Baylor) also scored vs white guys. Nice try...

Thanks for putting in the time and effort that I didn't have time to :cheers:
And I guess my theory was not half bad, after all, like I thought in my second post.

[Psileas]

All that writing, and all the coulda-shoulda-woulda's, and yet at the end of the day Jordan still owns a higher scoring average in the regular season, playoffs overall and Finals, 3 more scoring titles (in 13 full sesasons to Wilt's 14), and more career regular season, playoffs and finals points scored.

Wilt's only case against Jordan is a 7-year peak where he averaged 39.6 PPG vs. Jordan's best 7 year stretch of 33.2. But was Wilt really "better", considering he shot .511% from the field (vs. .518% for MJ) and took 31.4 FGA per game vs. 24.2 for MJ (basically Wilt took 7.2 more shots to score 6.4 more PPG)?

That's debatable for sure, where as Jordan's aforementioned advantages leave nothing for debate.

Jordan is the GOAT scorer. Period.

Are you kidding with the "coulda-shoulda-woulda's"? Yeah, comparing two players playing different positions, in different eras, vs different opponents, in different numbers of rounds and games, with different rules, poses no problem and makes it a "no debate" if the final ppg gives the advantage to our choice... Yet, you sure love "coulda-shoulda-woulda's" yourself since you try to debate Wilt's 1960-66 numerical advantage further. :rolleyes:
So, I could remind you that Jordan took a lot more shots than Wilt in the playoffs and the Finals, did not face some of the GOAT defenders year in and year out quite as often (in about 40% of his total games, including 58% of his high scoring postseasons), played in more playoff rounds, etc, but I won't go any further, since for you there's no debate already, so I'm leaving these facts for the ones who think otherwise.

[CavaliersFTW]

ssginc getting shredded :oldlol:

[riseagainst]

are people really trying to make an argument for Wilt playing in a tougher era than Jordan did?

:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

ssginc getting shredded :oldlol:
These Wilt fans I swear..

[Deuce Bigalow]

Playoffs

MJ
15.1 ppg (52.8%)
6.5 ppg (22.3%)
5.4 ppg (18.4%)
7.3 ppg (24.8%)
1.4 ppg (5.1%)
5.4 ppg (18.6%)
3.6 ppg (11.4%)
4.2 ppg (15.8%)
0.1 ppg (3.2%)
1.9 ppg (6.2%)

Wilt
3.5 ppg (11.2%)
Not a single reply was given. Wilt fans avoid the playoffs like the plague :oldlol: Maybe I should do the Finals too :lol

[LAZERUSS]

All that writing, and all the coulda-shoulda-woulda's, and yet at the end of the day Jordan still owns a higher scoring average in the regular season, playoffs overall and Finals, 3 more scoring titles (in 13 full sesasons to Wilt's 14), and more career regular season, playoffs and finals points scored.

Wilt's only case against Jordan is a 7-year peak where he averaged 39.6 PPG vs. Jordan's best 7 year stretch of 33.2. But was Wilt really "better", considering he shot .511% from the field (vs. .518% for MJ) and took 31.4 FGA per game vs. 24.2 for MJ (basically Wilt took 7.2 more shots to score 6.4 more PPG)?

That's debatable for sure, where as Jordan's aforementioned advantages leave nothing for debate.

Jordan is the GOAT scorer. Period.

Let's start with this shall we...

Chamberlain's SCORING prime came from '59-60 thru '65-66. And he just SHELLED the league in those years, including HOF centers like Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, and Russell. Just ANNIHILATED them. Anyone that thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

He faced a PRIME Russell, and a PRIME Celtic DYNASTY in either the first, or second round, in FIVE of those seven seasons. And, in his 44.8 ppg season, his roster was so bad, that they didn't make the playoffs. However, during that regular season, Chamberlain battled Russell in nine H2H's, and averaged 38.1 ppg against him. He also had regular seasons of 38 ppg, and 39.7 ppg against him, as well (and in 10-12 H2H's.)

So, here was Chamberlain battling what many consider the greatest defensive center, as well as a swarming Celtic defense (even Celtic players are on record as claiming as much), very early in the playoffs.

In those five post-season series against Russell's Celtics, he averaged 30.2 ppg on a .500 FG% (in a post-season NBA that had an eFG% of .402); 33.6 ppg on a .468 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .411); 29.2 ppg on a .517 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .420); 30.1 ppg on a .555 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .429); and 28.0 ppg on a .509 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .440.)

Now, how about Jordan against his greatest rival, the Pistons. He battled them four times in what was Detroit's prime in 87-88, 88-89, 89-90, and a declining Piston team in 90-91.

He averaged 27.4 ppg on a .495 eFG% (league shot an eFG% of .488); 29.7 ppg on a .476 eFG% (in a post-season that shot an eFG% of .487); 32.1 ppg on a .485 FG% (post-season NBA shot .490); and 29.8 ppg on a .556 eFG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .492.)

Hmmm...I don't see MJ as anymore dominant against those Piston teams, than Chamberlain was against Russell and his Celtics.

BTW, how about Shaq against his biggest rivals, the Spurs...

In five series, from 98-99 thru 03-04, Shaq had these series...

23.8 ppg on a .493 FG%
27.0 ppg on a .541 FG%
21.4 ppg on a .447 FG%
25.3 ppg on a .559 FG%
22.5 ppg on a .635 FG%

Where were Shaq's 30+ ppg series against the Spurs?


Jordan's playoff scoring high game... 63 points, to Wilt's 56. Wait...MJ played in two OTs to get to 63, and in fact, "only" had 54 points in regulation.

MJ had eight post-season games of 50+...by far #1..in a 179 playoff games.

Chamberlain "only" had four, which is the second highest all-time. And all four of them came in his "scoring" prime from '60 thru '66, and in his first 52 playoff games. In fact, they all came between '60 thru '64, and in his first 36 games (when he was averaging between 37.6 ppg to 34.7 ppg during the regular season in those years.)

And how about this... let's ADD the regular season AND the post-season numbers in MJ's greatest scoring season, and Wilt's greatest scoring season, shall we?

MJ, in 86-87, played in 85 total games, and scored 3148 points, or 37.0 ppg. Wilt, in his greatest scoring season, played in 92 total games, and scored 4449 points, for a 48.4 ppg average.

Again, while MJ played in a playoff series on a team that went 30-52, Chamberlain missed the playoffs, on a team that went 31-49, and in a season in which he averaged 44.8 ppg.


Furthermore, how about this scenario?

In Wilt's 61-62 season, his team lost a game seven to the Celtics, by two points. Bill Russell went on to face the Lakers in the Finals, and put up a 22.9 ppg, .543 FG% series, with a game seven of 30 points and 40 rebounds.

Now, had Wilt been fortunate enough to have had his team score three more points in that game seven, it would have been Chamberlain facing the Lakers in the Finals that year. Now, Wilt played nine regular season H2H's against LA that year, and averaged 51.5 ppg on a .500 FG% against them. Included were three games of 60+, with a high game of 78 points and 43 rebounds.

Now, I ask you, just how many Finals scoring records do you think Wilt would own today, had his pathetic roster been able to help him out enough to score three more points against a heavily-favored Celtic team?

And THAT was Chamberlain's struggle for his entire scoring prime.

Psileas already pointed it out, but had Chamberlain been in the Western conference in those seven seasons, (instead of only one), he would have been scoring much more. Hell, in his ONE post-season, in the West, in that span, he averaged 38.6 ppg on a .559 FG% (in a post-season NBA that averaged 105.8 ppg on a .420 eFG%), before taking on Boston and their EIGHT HOFers in the Finals.


I could go on, too. In Wilt's scoring prime, from '59-60 thru 65-66, he averaged 32.8 ppg on a .505 FG% (in a post-seasons that shot about .425 in that span), in his 52 playoff games, 30 of which were against Russell. Or how about his numbers from '60 thru '67? He AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 a apg, shot .518 (in post-seasons that shot about .427 in that span), and probably with over 8 blocks per game...all while holding his opposing starting centers to probably about a .400 FG% (or worse.) And, again, 35 of those 67 games were against Russell's Celtics (and six against Nate Thurmond,...who held a prime KAJ to just atrocious shooting in their 16 playoff games.)

The FACTS are, Wilt OWNS the NBA scoring records. MJ's HIGH game of his career was 69 points (on a very good .622 FG%.) Chamberlain had 32 games of 60+, including four of the six in which a player shot over .700 from the field...AND the HIGHEST one, (.829...on 29-35 shooting.) My god, Chamberlain had SIX games of 70+. Where were MJ's? How come MJ couldn't score 40 ppg on those crappy Bulls teams of the mid-to-late 80's, when he was given every opportunity to shoot at will?

And not only was Chamberlain putting up huge scoring seasons, he was also leading the league in FG%, and in rebounding, all while just crushing his HOF peers in the process.

Sorry, but as Oscar once said..."The Record Book does not lie."

[DatAsh]

Anyone who thinks that 30-40 point pace differentials don't drastically skew these statistics is kidding themselves. I honestly hate pace normalized statistics, as they fail to account for so many different variables, but trying to compare scoring numbers with a pace differential of that size is even more silly.

From what I've seen

Jordan
Durant (no kidding, he's got it)
Shaq
Wilt
Kobe

in that order.

For me a big factor is the ability to score on your own, without the help of others. Another big factor is being able to produce within the flow of an offense, without negatively affecting the scoring potential of your teammates. Obviously most of these guys probably do have a negative affect on ppg of those around them, but minimizing that affect is key.

[DatAsh]

The most important thing should be how much your scoring improves your team's offense. Nothing else matters really.

Nailing that figure down is tough, but you can probably get a general idea.

If you're putting up 30ppg on 60%, yet hardly improving your team's offense, then I don't really consider to you to be a great scorer. You're without a doubt a great individual scorer, but basketball is a team game.

[DatAsh]

Also, Wilt's drop off in the playoffs had more to do with how his coaches played him than anything else.

[LAZERUSS]

Anyone who thinks that 30-40 point pace differentials don't drastically skew these statistics is kidding themselves. I honestly hate pace normalized statistics, as they fail to account for so many different variables, but trying to compare scoring numbers with a pace differential of that size is even more silly.

From what I've seen

Jordan
Durant (no kidding, he's got it)
Shaq
Wilt
Kobe

in that order.

For me a big factor is the ability to score on your own, without the help of others. Another big factor is being able to produce within the flow of an offense, without negatively affecting the scoring potential of your teammates. Obviously most of these guys probably do have a negative affect on ppg of those around them, but minimizing that affect is key.

The "Wilt-bashers" (and I am not saying you are one of them) would claim that Wilt played in a high-paced era, and then, at the same time, say that his post-season scoring dropped.

Sure, his post-season scoring did decline. Why? Because he was taking considerably less shots. How about this? In Chamberlain's '64 Finals against Russell, he averaged 29.2 ppg, on 24 FGAs per game. Not only that, but he shot .517 from the floor, in a post-season that had an eFG% of .420. Compare that with Hakeem's '95 Finals, when he averaged 32.8 ppg, on 29 FGAs per game, on a .488 eFG%, in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .504. Hell, take Wilt's '65 seven game series against Russell, when he averaged 30.1 ppg on 20.9 FGAs per game, on a .555 eFG%, in a post-season NBA that shot .429.

Furthermore, Chamberlain was battling a HOF center, in the majority of his post-season series. I have read those that have ripped Wilt for his scoring decline in his 61-62 playoffs. True, Russell "held" Wilt to "only" 33.6 ppg, and on a .468 FG%, in a season in which Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%. BUT, in his 10 regular season H2H's with Russell that season, he "only" averaged 39.7 ppg on a .471 FG%. Oh, and in the regular season that year, the NBA averaged 118.8 ppg on a .426 eFG%. However, in the post-season, the scoring and shooting dropped to 112.6 ppg on .411 shooting.

[dannywpt]

Kevin Durant

In 10 years

[ssginc]

Are you kidding with the "coulda-shoulda-woulda's"? Yeah, comparing two players playing different positions, in different eras, vs different opponents, in different numbers of rounds and games, with different rules, poses no problem and makes it a "no debate" if the final ppg gives the advantage to our choice... Yet, you sure love "coulda-shoulda-woulda's" yourself since you try to debate Wilt's 1960-66 numerical advantage further. :rolleyes:
So, I could remind you that Jordan took a lot more shots than Wilt in the playoffs and the Finals, did not face some of the GOAT defenders year in and year out quite as often (in about 40% of his total games, including 58% of his high scoring postseasons), played in more playoff rounds, etc, but I won't go any further, since for you there's no debate already, so I'm leaving these facts for the ones who think otherwise.


Sorry but I'm not the one who started the "Wilt could have won 8 scoring titles if he wanted to" crappola. Also, Jordan faced two -2- of the greatest Defenses in NBA history eight -8- times during the playoffs (Pistons / Knicks), and he was a Guard dominating a Big Man's game. Wilt was a 7 foot + BEAST taking 30-40 shots a game against a league of competition half his size.

Bottom line Wilt's Scoring fell off a cliff in the playoffs, even before he landed in LA.

59-60: 37.6 PPG in regular season / 33.2 PPG in playoffs
60-61: 38.4 / 37
61-62: 50.4 / 35
62-63: 44.8 / --
63-64: 36.9 / 34.7
64-65: 34.7 / 29.3
65-66: 33.5 / 28.0
66-67: 24.1 / 21.7
67-68: 24.3 / 23.7

GOAT scorer my ass.

[ssginc]

Not a single reply was given. Wilt fans avoid the playoffs like the plague :oldlol: Maybe I should do the Finals too :lol


Funny isn't it.

[ssginc]

Let's start with this shall we...

Chamberlain's SCORING prime came from '59-60 thru '65-66. And he just SHELLED the league in those years, including HOF centers like Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, and Russell. Just ANNIHILATED them. Anyone that thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

He faced a PRIME Russell, and a PRIME Celtic DYNASTY in either the first, or second round, in FIVE of those seven seasons. And, in his 44.8 ppg season, his roster was so bad, that they didn't make the playoffs. However, during that regular season, Chamberlain battled Russell in nine H2H's, and averaged 38.1 ppg against him. He also had regular seasons of 38 ppg, and 39.7 ppg against him, as well (and in 10-12 H2H's.)

So, here was Chamberlain battling what many consider the greatest defensive center, as well as a swarming Celtic defense (even Celtic players are on record as claiming as much), very early in the playoffs.

In those five post-season series against Russell's Celtics, he averaged 30.2 ppg on a .500 FG% (in a post-season NBA that had an eFG% of .402); 33.6 ppg on a .468 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .411); 29.2 ppg on a .517 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .420); 30.1 ppg on a .555 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .429); and 30.2 ppg on a .509 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .440.)

Now, how about Jordan against his greatest rival, the Pistons. He battled them four times in what was Detroit's prime in 87-88, 88-89, 89-90, and a declining Piston team in 90-91.

He averaged 27.4 ppg on a .495 eFG% (league shot an eFG% of .488); 29.7 ppg on a .476 eFG% (in a post-season that shot an eFG% of .487); 32.1 ppg on a .485 FG% (post-season NBA shot .490); and 29.8 ppg on a .556 eFG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .492.)

Hmmm...I don't see MJ as anymore dominant against those Piston teams, than Chamberlain was against Russell and his Celtics.

BTW, how about Shaq against his biggest rivals, the Spurs...

In five series, from 98-99 thru 03-04, Shaq had these series...

23.8 ppg on a .493 FG%
27.0 ppg on a .541 FG%
21.4 ppg on a .447 FG%
25.3 ppg on a .559 FG%
22.5 ppg on a .635 FG%

Where were Shaq's 30+ ppg series against the Spurs?


Jordan's playoff scoring high game... 63 points, to Wilt's 56. Wait...MJ played in two OTs to get to 63, and in fact, "only" had 54 points in regulation.

MJ had eight post-season games of 50+...by far #1..in a 179 playoff games.

Chamberlain "only" had four, which is the second highest all-time. And all four of them came in his "scoring" prime from '60 thru '66, and in his first 52 playoff games. In fact, they all came between '60 thru '64, and in his first 36 games (when he was averaging between 37.6 ppg to 34.7 ppg during the regular season in those years.)

And how about this... let's ADD the regular season AND the post-season numbers in MJ's greatest scoring season, and Wilt's greatest scoring season, shall we?

MJ, in 86-87, played in 85 total games, and scored 3148 points, or 37.0 ppg. Wilt, in his greatest scoring season, played in 92 total games, and scored 4449 points, for a 48.4 ppg average.

Again, while MJ played in a playoff series on a team that went 30-52, Chamberlain missed the playoffs, on a team that went 31-49, and in a season in which he averaged 44.8 ppg.


Furthermore, how about this scenario?

In Wilt's 61-62 season, his team lost a game seven to the Celtics, by two points. Bill Russell went on to face the Lakers in the Finals, and put up a 22.9 ppg, .543 FG% series, with a game seven of 30 points and 40 rebounds.

Now, had Wilt been fortunate enough to have had his team score three more points in that game seven, it would have been Chamberlain facing the Lakers in the Finals that year. Now, Wilt played nine regular season H2H's against LA that year, and averaged 51.5 ppg on a .500 FG% against them. Included were three games of 60+, with a high game of 78 points and 43 rebounds.

Now, I ask you, just how many Finals scoring records do you think Wilt would own today, had his pathetic roster been able to help him out enough to score three more points against a heavily-favored Celtic team?

And THAT was Chamberlain's struggle for his entire scoring prime.

Psileas already pointed it out, but had Chamberlain been in the Western conference in those seven seasons, (instead of only one), he would have been scoring much more. Hell, in his ONE post-season, in the West, in that span, he averaged 38.6 ppg on a .559 FG% (in a post-season NBA that averaged 105.8 ppg on a .420 eFG%), before taking on Boston and their EIGHT HOFers in the Finals.


I could go on, too. In Wilt's scoring prime, from '59-60 thru 65-66, he averaged 32.8 ppg on a .505 FG% (in a post-seasons that shot about .425 in that span), in his 52 playoff games, 30 of which were against Russell. Or how about his numbers from '60 thru '67? He AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 a apg, shot .518 (in post-seasons that shot about .427 in that span), and probably with over 8 blocks per game...all while holding his opposing starting centers to probably about a .400 FG% (or worse.) And, again, 35 of those 67 games were against Russell's Celtics (and six against Nate Thurmond,...who held a prime KAJ to just atrocious shooting in their 16 playoff games.)

The FACTS are, Wilt OWNS the NBA scoring records. MJ's HIGH game of his career was 69 points (on a very good .622 FG%.) Chamberlain had 32 games of 60+, including four of the six in which a player shot over .700 from the field...AND the HIGHEST one, (.829...on 29-35 shooting.) My god, Chamberlain had SIX games of 70+. Where were MJ's? How come MJ couldn't score 40 ppg on those crappy Bulls teams of the mid-to-late 80's, when he was given every opportunity to shoot at will?

And not only was Chamberlain putting up huge scoring seasons, he was also leading the league in FG%, and in rebounding, all while just crushing his HOF peers in the process.

Sorry, but as Oscar once said..."The Record Book does not lie."


You hype Wilt's first 7 years but neglect to mention that he was taking FAR more FGA per game than Jordan AND he enjoyed a size/physical advantage (vs. his peers) on par with Shaq and Lebron.

Jordan enjoyed no such advantage. Jordan was a G playing in a Big Man's game / era. Jordan didn't have the luxury of playing 5 feet from the basket to score his points (over guys half his size).

Sorry, Wilt's first 7 years don't impress me as much as Jordan circa 87-93, and when you factor in the playoffs / Finals forget about it. It's MJ by a landslide.

[Audio One]

I see awesome legendary names mentioned. When I think unstoppable scorers, the first three names I think about are MJ, Wilt, and Kareem. MJ has the all time scoring average record, Wilt the single game and single season PPG record, and Kareem the all time points per game record and the most unstoppable weapon ever in the skyhook. U could say any one of those three are the best and I wouldn't argue. So 2nd best would naturally come from that group.

I think one name that needs to be shown more love is Nique. His sustained dominance scoring the rock and being the highest scoring SF of all time in terms of career points needs to be shown more love! Certainly in his era, Nique has a case as being the second greatest scorer behind MJ.

:applause:

[Aussie Dunker]

Interesting to see Lebron right now has as many 30 point games, and 40 point games, as Shaq did in his entire career... That puts some perspective on how good / consistant Lebron has been as a scorer which in my opinion is often overlooked due to all the other facets of his game being so damn good too.

I think that Wilt was a better scorer than MJ, but those guys are top two, the order is debatable.

Natural scorers that come to mind are Gervin, Iverson, Kobe.

Prime Tmac is right up there too with the best, but was short lived...

I expect to see Durant as a top 3 scorer when all is said and done. He might be the most natural scorer of them all...

[LAZERUSS]

You hype Wilt's first 7 years but neglect to mention that he was taking FAR more FGA per game than Jordan AND he enjoyed a size/physical advantage (vs. his peers) on par with Shaq and Lebron.

Jordan enjoyed no such advantage. Jordan was a G playing in a Big Man's game / era. Jordan didn't have the luxury of playing 5 feet from the basket to score his points (over guys half his size).

Sorry, Wilt's first 7 years don't impress me as much as Jordan circa 87-93, and when you factor in the playoffs / Finals forget about it. It's MJ by a landslide.

You still didn't respond to my original point.

How come MJ wasn't even scoring as much in the playoffs against his biggest rival, the Pistons, in four h2H series, as Wilt did against his, Russell's Celtics, in his five playoff series in his "scoring" seasons?

[Dragonyeuw]

Interesting to see Lebron right now has as many 30 point games, and 40 point games, as Shaq did in his entire career... That puts some perspective on how good / consistant Lebron has been as a scorer which in my opinion is often overlooked due to all the other facets of his game being so damn good too

.

In fairness though, Lebron had 7 years to rack up big scoring games without a second great scorer alongside him. Shaq through his prime had either Penny, Kobe, or Wade, in other words he was in situations where he shared the scoring load with another dynamic scoring talent. Im sure that if Shaq was a one man show for the first ten years of his career he'd have more 30/40 point games.

[Psileas]

Sorry but I'm not the one who started the "Wilt could have won 8 scoring titles if he wanted to" crappola. Also, Jordan faced two -2- of the greatest Defenses in NBA history eight -8- times during the playoffs (Pistons / Knicks), and he was a Guard dominating a Big Man's game. Wilt was a 7 foot + BEAST taking 30-40 shots a game against a league of competition half his size.

Bottom line Wilt's Scoring fell off a cliff in the playoffs, even before he landed in LA.

59-60: 37.6 PPG in regular season / 33.2 PPG in playoffs
60-61: 38.4 / 37
61-62: 50.4 / 35
62-63: 44.8 / --
63-64: 36.9 / 34.7
64-65: 34.7 / 29.3
65-66: 33.5 / 28.0
66-67: 24.1 / 21.7
67-68: 24.3 / 23.7

GOAT scorer my ass.

Dude, stop thinking that you can play hiding games with anyone. Contesting Wilt's scoring by mentioning his FGA's contains nothing less than poorly masquerading ifs and coulds. And stop ignoring that a "GOAT" topic is about ifs and coulds by default.
LOL at counting all the times Jordan faced the Knicks and Pistons as a claim he was facing GOAT defenses. Yeah, especially those '91 Knicks with the historical 107.3 defensive rating, good for 12th in only one season...Not to mention that when he did face top defenses, usually either his scoring or his FG%'s or both would fall, yes, just like Wilt (and Kareem, another player who gets free passes often). Lazeruss already provided the numbers, which would lead a ssginc-like Wilt supporter claim "Jordan GOAT scorer my ass". Now, get this, even if I had accepted the Pistons+Knicks bull, this would still make a grand total of 8 out of Jordan's 37 series. Wilt faced historically top defenses/defenders in every postseason except a few like 1961 - and, what a surprise, in 1961, Wilt's playoff scoring came close to matching his regular season one. Similarly (and ironically), if Wilt was "lucky" enough to lose early in the 1960 and 1964 playoffs, his playoff scoring averages would be higher than in the regular season, which would lead many more to respect Wilt, who, suddenly, wouldn't "choke" (since he would have exceeded his regular season productivity, his teammates might have gotten the blame, just for a change).
Oh, and the usual "guard vs beast" excuses. No, Jordan wasn't just a "guard". He was an athletic beast, with an almost unparalleled combination of speed, quickness, vertical and strength for a small man, along with huge hands, which enabled him to dominate at a degree he wouldn't if he only had the physical abilities of his opponents (or, like people like you would claim, "if he had half his physical abilities"). I love how Jordan-theists pretend to ignore this simple fact that they use in a slightly altered form ad nauseam for bigs.

[Psileas]

Funny isn't it.

Even funnier is that his "retort" was an effort to derail the conversation I had with another poster and therefore was justly ignored.

[La Frescobaldi]

Whatever :rolleyes:

Bottom line the Bulls won 6 Championships with Jordan dominating the scoring. Wilt won 2 rings as a 2nd/3rd fiddle.

Explain how Wilt can be considered the GOAT scorer.

He can't. Not when the other guy in the debate is Jordan.


I'm already on record in this thread the three greatest were Chamberlain Jabbar & Jordan, and that the next greatest scorer was probably Bob McAdoo.

I've never thought anyone else was in the little elite circle that those 3 are in, and I doubt James will get in it either ~ due to his long wretched history of flopping. Anyone that flops like he did doesn't even deserve to be in the Hall of Fame, let alone stand beside the elite on the summit of Mount Olympus.
Same goes for Wade and all the rest of those who belittle the game like that, the Griffins and Ginobilis and so forth. Disgusting what they did. Let boos rain down on them forever.

[LAZERUSS]

Of course the Wilt-bashers just completely ignore regular season numbers, which take place over the course of 80 games, and pump up the playoffs, which rarely exceed 15 games, and have as few as three.

Here again, why not use a combination of both? Why? Because a "scoring" Chamberlain just blows away Jordan. But, but, look at his FGAs? Yes, let's use that argument when Wilt takes more FGAs, but ignore it in the post-seasons in which MJ averaged more.

Psileas also mentioned FG%'s. MJ had playoff series against those dreaded Knicks when he was shooting an even 40%. In his last three Finals he shot .455, .427, and even .415. And no one has given me a response as to how come a peak scoring Jordan scored considerably less against Bad Boys, than his season averages. The Wilt-detractors point out Wilt's "decline", even though he faced Russell's Celtics in either his first round, or second round, during his scoring seasons, in five of his seven post-seasons. And again, he didn't get to the playoffs in his second greatest scoring season (44.8 ppg on .528 shooting), and yet Jordan played in a season in which his team had gone 30-52.

Psileas also pointed out the fact that a scoring Chamberlain played in the Eastern conference five of his seven seasons (and again, missed the playoffs in one of them.) Had Chamberlain had the good fortune to have been in the Western Conference all those seasons, and either he would have made it to the Finals in them (giving him one more series), or else lost to Laker teams that he was routinely hanging 50-60- and even 70 point games on. We do know that in his ONE season in the West, he averaged 38.6 ppg on a .559 FG% in the WDF's, before "only" putting up a 29-28 .517 Finals against Russell.

In any case, and using the TOTALITY of their careers, a prime "SCORING" Chamberlain was LIGHT YEARS ahead of MJ. In Wilt's first seven seasons combined, and counting his playoffs, he averaged an even 39 ppg (23194 points in 595 games.) In Jordan's greatest scoring SINGLE season, and including the playoffs, he averaged an even 37 ppg. And, in Wilt's greatest scoring season, he averaged 48.4 ppg combined.

Go ahead and look up CAREER 40, 50, 60, 70, and 100 point games. My god, Chamberlain has more 60+ point games in his career (32), than the rest of the entire NBA, in it's long history...COMBINED (30.) And before someone jumps ups and claims that Wilt played in a higher paced era, think about this...in Chamberlain's 14 seasons in the league, he had those 32 60+ point games, and the rest of the NBA in that span...totaled FIVE. Take Chamberlain out of the equation, and the 60's were no more out of the ordinary than any other decade.

Oh, and in his H2H's with Russell, who is often considered the greatest defensive center of all-time, Wilt had seasons, covering 9-12 games, in which he averaged 38 ppg, 38 ppg, and even 40 ppg. He had 24 games of 40+ against him, including five of 50+, with a high game of 62. He also plastered Thurmond with games of 38 and 45, and KAJ in 40 some H2H games against Thurmond could only get to to 34.

As a sidenote, I have long maintained that no one will ever approach 100 points in a game. And the reality was, there was only one player who could have...Chamberlain himself. He had monster shooting games throughout his career, in which, had he taken more shots, would have challenged the 100 point mark. Hell, as late as his 68-69 season (in an NBA that averaged 112.3 ppg), Wilt put up a 66 point game on 29-35 shooting from the field. Had he taken 63 FGAs in that game, and on his .829 FG% shooting, he would have 110.

The GOAT scorer...Chamberlain. And it ain't close brother.

[KG215]

I don't give a f**k if his career is only 7 years old, Durant is absolutely one of the 5 best perimeter scorers of all-time and he may have a serious argument for second best behind Jordan.

[DatAsh]

I don't give a f**k if his career is only 7 years old, Durant is absolutely one of the 5 best perimeter scorers of all-time and he may have a serious argument for second best behind Jordan.

Durant and Jordan are the best scorers of any kind I've ever seen. Durant needs to maintain, but if he can, he's got it.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I don't give a f**k if his career is only 7 years old, Durant is absolutely one of the 5 best perimeter scorers of all-time and he may have a serious argument for second best behind Jordan.
With only 3x 50 point games in 7 seasons? That talk is way too premature. Stop it.

[ABfor3]

I'm sorry but Wilts numbers just don't amaze me when he's basically played his whole career against a bunch of Tyler Hansboroughs, undersized white big men. He played against Russell who was an elite defender but really had no offensive game. To me the greatest scorer is KAJ, he was unstoppable in a respectable era. Michael Jordan is still the GOAT but what made him Goat to me is how great he was at BOTH ends of the floor

[LAZERUSS]

I'm sorry but Wilts numbers just don't amaze me when he's basically played his whole career against a bunch of Tyler Hansboroughs, undersized white big men. He played against Russell who was an elite defender but really had no offensive game. To me the greatest scorer is KAJ, he was unstoppable in a respectable era. Michael Jordan is still the GOAT but what made him Goat to me is how great he was at BOTH ends of the floor

Hmmm...

A peak/prime KAJ faced several of the same centers that a peak/prime Chamberlain did...

and was NOWHERE near as dominant against them.

Chamberlain had entire SEASONS, covering 10 H2H games, against the 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy (who would measure seven-feet in today's NBA) in which he averaged more ppg than KAJ's single HIGH game against Bellamy was.

A prime scoring Chamberlain scored more, and shot a FAR higher FG% against 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond (who, again, would be listed at over 7-0 in today's NBA), than a peak KAJ ever did. Not even close.

Same with Willis Reed. Or Connie Dierking. Or Jim Fox. Or Darrall Imhoff.

A prime scoring Chamberlain was easily the most dominant center of all-time, and as I have already noted, the game's greatest pure scorer.

[KG215]

With only 3x 50 point games in 7 seasons? That talk is way too premature. Stop it.
So 50+ point games is the best way to measure a great scorer? Durant is one of the most consistent high volume on great efficiency scorers ever among perimeter players. He's now almost through a five season stretch of averaging 29 PPG on 49/38/89 and 62% TS.

Part of the reason he hasn't had more 40+ and 50+ point games is because he's played the majority of his career with another 20+ PPG, high volume scorer in Westbrook and has almost always had another teammate average around 15 PPG. As an OKC fan, I'm more than ok with hat because it means we've almost always had a contender during Durant's career. However, after what we've seen from Durant this year without Westbrook, it stands to reason he'd have quite a few more games of 40+ and 50+ points if he had to go through what LeBron and Jordan went through the first 7 years or so of their career where they had to carry a huge scoring load.

Besides, Durant is one of the most consistent scorers ever. I don't know, exactly, how you'd do this and I'm sure it'd take a lot of time, but he VERY rarely has "off" games where he scores around 15 points. He almost always scores 25-35 points.

[SamuraiSWISH]

So 50+ point games is the best way to measure a great scorer? Durant is one of the most consistent high volume on great efficiency scorers ever among perimeter players.
Agreed, and yes the number of 50 point games to me would be a barometer of how great a volume scorer is ... regardless of all that your statement is stupid, and way too premature. KD already the 2nd greatest scorer of all-time? Dude just had his whopping 3rd 50 point game. And we all know the context of the soft ass calls he's received in recent years for league superstar promotion to pad the hell out of those PPG numbers. I mean ... if you actually watch him play. He's not even top five most dominant scorers based off eye test that I've seen yet. Yet you claim he's 2nd best scorer ever.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

KAJ or Kobe but KD comin yo:applause:

[Joyner82reload]

Agreed, and yes the number of 50 point games to me would be a barometer of how great a volume scorer is ... regardless of all that your statement is stupid, and way too premature. KD already the 2nd greatest scorer of all-time? Dude just had his whopping 3rd 50 point game. And we all know the context of the soft ass calls he's received in recent years for league superstar promotion to pad the hell out of those PPG numbers. I mean ... if you actually watch him play. He's not even top five most dominant scorers based off eye test that I've seen yet. Yet you claim he's 2nd best scorer ever.

Durant's shot over 30 times in a game 8 times in his career and has 3 50 point games. 1 for every 2.7 games of 30+ shots

Kobe's shot over 30 times in a game 105 times in his career and has 24 50 point games. 1 for every 4.4 games of 30+ shots.