Hakeem Olajuwon vs Tim Duncan

[Shade8780]

Who's better?

[Harison]

Dream did everything better except passing, so its no contest really.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Hakeem easily. Imagine if he had Admiral, Pop, Spurs org, Buford, Manu...................

[Ratnik]

The Dream, no question

[noob cake]

The Dream had a NBA top 5 peak.

[navy]

Tim Duncan is so unflashy I think he get's underrated.

That being said, probably Hakeem as players go.

Duncan for career accomplishments/longevity.

[Milbuck]

Dream.

How would Hakeem do if he was drafted on the Spurs in the exact same situation Duncan was drafted into?

[Odinn]

Peak; Hakeem
Prime; Hakeem but the gap gets a lot closer, almost a tie IMO.
Longevity; Duncan
Accolades; Duncan

Duncan is the better passer. Although Hakeem was the better defender, clearly, Duncan was a little bit smarter because Hakeem gambled way too much compared to Duncan and Duncan was more careful to leave his foot off the floor. Lastly, Duncan is the better and more consistent rebounder. In other things, Hakeem was better than Duncan.

[Legends66NBA7]

Dream.

How would Hakeem do if he was drafted on the Spurs in the exact same situation Duncan was drafted into?

He actually was. If Ralph Sampson didn't get those injuries, the Rockets might have been ruling out the West over the showtime Lakers and into the 90's. Remember Hakeem made it to the Finals in his second season, just like Duncan did.

The difference was injuries and consistency of each franchise, really. However, their situations were pretty much the same when they got drafted.

[Olacinco]

Joel embiid>>>>> Hakeem/Duncan combined :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Angel Face]

Hakeem!

[Y2ktors]

Dream.... no doubt about it.

[CJ Mustard]

Dream.

[Uncle Drew]

Timmy.

[Mr Feeny]

Timmy.

:biggums:

[215Philly]

The big D

[jzek]

Olajuwon has no weakness whereas Timmay has FT problems so Olajuwon wins.

[Cold soul]

Hakeem is the greater player but Duncan had the better career.

[moe94]

Anyone who picks Duncan is mental.

[Legends66NBA7]

Olajuwon has no weakness whereas Timmay has FT problems so Olajuwon wins.

Career ft%

Hakeem: 71.2%

Duncan: 69.4%

There's no problem, at all.

[RichieW]

Surprised everyone thinks this is a clear cut win for the Dream.

I never watched Olajuwon, but career stats are very similar. Only area where there is a clear cut winner is blocks, obviously in favour of Hakeem.

Duncan: 20/11.2/2.2 @ 50.6%
Hakeem: 21.8/11.1/3.3 @ 51.2%

Both carried a relatively poor team to a title almost single handedly. Both raised their games in the playoffs.

In terms of individual awards Duncan has more All Star appearances, All NBA (1st team + total), All Defensive (1st team + total), MVPs, FMVPs and Rings. Only thing Hakeem has is 2x DPOY to Duncans zero.

Of course they were in different eras so it's tough to compare. Hakeem never faced Jordan in the playoffs so it's not like he has fewer rings because of the dominant Bulls.

[Foster5k]

I'll take the one people called Dream.

[Mr Feeny]

I'll take the one people called Dream.

Dream was a quadruple double threat for a center. Its insane. Olajuwan all the way for me.

[Smook A.]

Can you imagine Hakeem with Parker and Manu? Thats 8 championships right there. Duncan is great but I would choose Hakeem

[T_L_P]

Can you imagine Hakeem with Parker and Manu? Thats 8 championships right there. Duncan is great but I would choose Hakeem

He had 4 years with a 15 point, 7 rebound, 5 assist, and 2 steals Clyde Drexler and only has one title to show for it :confusedshrug:

The answer is the Dream though.

[jstern]

Most people here picked Hakeem, but most people, including those who picked Hakeem here have Duncan higher on their top ten list.

We need a list of the top ten players, regardless of accomplishments.

[chazzy]

Prime vs prime I'll take Hakeem. Duncan's higher all time

[Smook A.]

He had 4 years with a 15 point, 7 rebound, 5 assist, and 2 steals Clyde Drexler and only has one title to show for it :confusedshrug:

The answer is the Dream though.
Clyde retired 3 years after joining the Rockets. Hakeem was like 35 when clyde came. 1 championship together is 3 years is still pretty great

[Odinn]

Most people here picked Hakeem, but most people, including those who picked Hakeem here have Duncan higher on their top ten list.

We need a list of the top ten players, regardless of accomplishments.
If you're interested in, here is my peak-wise g.o.a.t. list;

1. Michael Jordan
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Larry Bird
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Tim Duncan or LeBron James
8. LeBron James or Tim Duncan
9. Magic Johnson or Kobe Bryant
10. Kobe Bryant or Magic Johnson

Honorable mentions; Moses Malone, Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor

My criteria about peaks; single best season and best 3 consecutive seasons.

[T_L_P]

Clyde retired 3 years after joining the Rockets. Hakeem was like 35 when clyde came. 1 championship together is 3 years is still pretty great

They had 4 seasons together and Hakeem was 32 when Clyde joined, though I get what you're saying.

In all honesty though, Parker and Manu don't become who they are today without Duncan:confusedshrug:

[stephanieg]

Hakeem is more athletic, but he was a hothead earlier in his career and got into fights with other players/refs (that ref tackling him in the LA game to prevent a fight is one of the underrated funniest NBA things ever IMO). I think he sometimes fell in love with his fadeaways on the block too, but yeah, I'd still probably take him.

[jstern]

If you're interested in, here is my peak-wise g.o.a.t. list;

1. Michael Jordan
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Larry Bird
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Tim Duncan or LeBron James
8. LeBron James or Tim Duncan
9. Magic Johnson or Kobe Bryant
10. Kobe Bryant or Magic Johnson

Honorable mentions; Moses Malone, Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor

My criteria about peaks; single best season and best 3 consecutive seasons.

That's a good list. Where would you rank Charles Barkley?

[Odinn]

That's a good list. Where would you rank Charles Barkley?
Since I mentioned about 13 players, Chuck is probably 14th or 15th.

[Audio One]

Duncan has accomplished more in less time, against tougher competition, has superior longevity, better passer, more instinctive defender, better leader, and didn't need a shortened three-point line or the best player in the league to be suspended. I fail to see the case for Akeem here

[sportjames23]

Dream got this.

[sportjames23]

Duncan has accomplished more in less time, against tougher competition, has superior longevity, better passer, more instinctive defender, better leader, and didn't need a shortened three-point line or the best player in the league to be suspended. I fail to see the case for Akeem here


Then you fail at life, my friend.

[moe94]

Duncan has accomplished more in less time, against tougher competition, has superior longevity, better passer, more instinctive defender, better leader, and didn't need a shortened three-point line or the best player in the league to be suspended. I fail to see the case for Akeem here

Homey said better competition. Instinctive defender? Pulling shit from his ass as if their defense is arguable. He couldn't bring himself to say better defender. Why not go all the way?

You're not trolling. You're dead serious, aren't you?

[alec613]

Timmy because of accolades
Hakeem is the better player though

[Audio One]

Homey said better competition. Instinctive defender? Pulling shit from his ass as if their defense is arguable. He couldn't bring himself to say better defender. Why not go all the way?

You're not trolling. You're dead serious, aren't you?

Duncan beat Kobe AND Shaquille for his titles, 2 top 10 players at or near their prime, while Hakeem wins his titles during the weakest stretch since the merger, and with a shortened three point lines for his shooters, please:lol

For all those blocks and steals Nightmare got, he was always out of position, gambled a ton in the lanes, and greatly benefited from the handchecking rules of his day, from both his defenders, and he himself. Watch some highlights of him, and see that he cannot defend the P&R without handchecking if his life depended on it

Duncan had better anticipation, and closed off lanes and drives with his feet, he didn't let the play break down at the rim like Olajuwon did. Duncan's always been known for not leaving his feet unless the offensive player left his, and only taking what the defense gave him. Olajuwon was a loose cannon, whose stats benefited from a faster pace, and rules that were more favorable to big men.

:cheers:

Again, this is Duncan pretty handily. I'd much rather have the unselfish, level-headed player that made his teammates better, instead of ****tards like Hakeem who get into fights during the WCF's

[Audio One]

Then you fail at life, my friend.

LOL, says the guy that believes Rik Smits is better than D12. Pot, meet kettle

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[houston]

Audio One summs up this thread. People tend to overrate Hakeem legacy due to 94 title run cause he won by "himself". But people tend to forget he had all-star quailty power forward and beat a bunch scrub centers to reach the Finals. Even in his second run he had all-nba third team SG with himself being all-nba third team too. Hakeem rep before he won his titles wasn't all that great. Hell in 92 he was accused of faking an injury and quitting on his team due to contract dispute. He threw teammates under the best and was a selfish player.


Duncan has more MVPs,Finals MVPs, and more championships. Made more all-star, all-defense, and all-nba first teams. So of course he is the better player.

[Y2ktors]

Hakeem >>>>>> Duncan

[Warners0]

lol @ saying if Duncan had manu and parker like they came in the league tearing it up.

What a joke.

[sportjames23]

LOL, says the guy that believes Rik Smits is better than D12. Pot, meet kettle

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Yao Ming used to abuse Dwight. Smits was better than Yao offensively, and used to give Ewing and Shaq fits. Smits would do the same to D12 that Yao did.

[sportjames23]

Audio One summs up this thread. People tend to overrate Hakeem legacy due to 94 title run cause he won by "himself". But people tend to forget he had all-star quailty power forward and beat a bunch scrub centers to reach the Finals. Even in his second run he had all-nba third team SG with himself being all-nba third team too. Hakeem rep before he won his titles wasn't all that great. Hell in 92 he was accused of faking an injury and quitting on his team due to contract dispute. He threw teammates under the best and was a selfish player.


Duncan has more MVPs,Finals MVPs, and more championships. Made more all-star, all-defense, and all-nba first teams. So of course he is the better player.


No one with the username houston should disrespect Dream like this. :facepalm

[iamgine]

Yao Ming used to abuse Dwight. Smits was better than Yao offensively, and used to give Ewing and Shaq fits. Smits would do the same to D12 that Yao did.
False

[sportjames23]

False


You ever see Smits play?

[Big#50]

One series against that playoff ***** David Robinson really did wonders for Hakeem. He would not be in anyone's top 12 had he not taken a shit on that mental midget #50.

Duncan all the way. Better rebounder, passer, leader, just as good on offense, better defender.
Hakeem was better at getting blocks and steals. Too much gambling on D. He put up lots of empty stats. He never made his team better. The rule changes made his shooters even more of a weapon.

[Y2ktors]

One series against that playoff ***** David Robinson really did wonders for Hakeem. He would not be in anyone's top 12 had he not taken a shit on that mental midget #50.

Duncan all the way. Better rebounder, passer, leader, just as good on offense, better defender.
Hakeem was better at getting blocks and steals. Too much gambling on D. He put up lots of empty stats. He never made his team better. The rule changes made his shooters even more of a weapon.
U mad bro?

[Big#50]

U mad bro?
People still use that??

[houston]

Timmy because of accolades
Hakeem is the better player though


If Hakeem the better player why he don't have better accolades:wtf:

[Mass Debator]

If you're interested in, here is my peak-wise g.o.a.t. list;

1. Michael Jordan
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Larry Bird
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Tim Duncan or LeBron James
8. LeBron James or Tim Duncan
9. Magic Johnson or Kobe Bryant
10. Kobe Bryant or Magic Johnson

Honorable mentions; Moses Malone, Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor

My criteria about peaks; single best season and best 3 consecutive seasons.
Why Magic so low? If he took around 20 shots like the rest of them, he'd be an efficient 25/10/8 player.

[Y2ktors]

If Hakeem the better player why he don't have better accolades:wtf:

Tougher, Better competition in his era, as opposed to Duncan's era where elite big men are almost nonexistent.

[r0drig0lac]

Duncan beat Kobe AND Shaquille for his titles, 2 top 10 players at or near their prime, while Hakeem wins his titles during the weakest stretch since the merger, and with a shortened three point lines for his shooters, please:lol

For all those blocks and steals Nightmare got, he was always out of position, gambled a ton in the lanes, and greatly benefited from the handchecking rules of his day, from both his defenders, and he himself. Watch some highlights of him, and see that he cannot defend the P&R without handchecking if his life depended on it

Duncan had better anticipation, and closed off lanes and drives with his feet, he didn't let the play break down at the rim like Olajuwon did. Duncan's always been known for not leaving his feet unless the offensive player left his, and only taking what the defense gave him. Olajuwon was a loose cannon, whose stats benefited from a faster pace, and rules that were more favorable to big men.

:cheers:

Again, this is Duncan pretty handily. I'd much rather have the unselfish, level-headed player that made his teammates better, instead of ****tards like Hakeem who get into fights during the WCF's
without taking anything hakeem but truths were said in that post, in fact duncan is my favorite so I would be biased, but hakeem only gained when jordan was playing around, so I'm still going with Duncan, who made his teammates better, do not believe someone thinks manu and parker would become what they are without duncan

[tragicbronson]

Audio One summs up this thread. People tend to overrate Hakeem legacy due to 94 title run cause he won by "himself". But people tend to forget he had all-star quailty power forward and beat a bunch scrub centers to reach the Finals. Even in his second run he had all-nba third team SG with himself being all-nba third team too. Hakeem rep before he won his titles wasn't all that great. Hell in 92 he was accused of faking an injury and quitting on his team due to contract dispute. He threw teammates under the best and was a selfish player.


Duncan has more MVPs,Finals MVPs, and more championships. Made more all-star, all-defense, and all-nba first teams. So of course he is the better player.

This, people act like Hakeem played every game like he was playing in that championship run and as someone said, competition wasn't really strong these years. Because of this some people tend to overrate him, I'd pick Duncan any day if i am starting a franchise.

[Y2ktors]

This, people act like Hakeem played every game like he was playing in that championship run and as someone said, competition wasn't really strong these years. Because of this some people tend to overrate him, I'd pick Duncan any day if i am starting a franchise.


Hakeem played in a much stronger era than Duncan. This is not even debatable. The level of competition at Duncan's position in his era is a joke, especially when being compared to the center position from 1984-2000.

[Harison]

Hakeem played in a much stronger era than Duncan. This is not even debatable. The level of competition at Duncan's position in his era is a joke, especially when being compared to the center position from 1984-2000.

Correct. Swap them and Hakeem would be perennial MVP and DPOY today (and in the conversation as a GOAT player), while Duncan probably wouldnt win anything in the Golden age with the Rockets - no rings, no MVPs, no DPOYs.

[tragicbronson]

Correct. Swap them and Hakeem would be perennial MVP and DPOY today (and in the conversation as a GOAT player), while Duncan probably wouldnt win anything in the Golden age with the Rockets - no rings, no MVPs, no DPOYs.

http://www.joesportsfan.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/the-weekly-hypothetical-title.jpg

[Euroleague]

This forum....................WTF is wrong with some of you people?

Hakeem by a country mile, and then some.

[Euroleague]

Yao Ming used to abuse Dwight. Smits was better than Yao offensively, and used to give Ewing and Shaq fits. Smits would do the same to D12 that Yao did.


:biggums: :wtf:

[Stringer Bell]

Hakeem is more athletic, but he was a hothead earlier in his career and got into fights with other players/refs (that ref tackling him in the LA game to prevent a fight is one of the underrated funniest NBA things ever IMO). I think he sometimes fell in love with his fadeaways on the block too, but yeah, I'd still probably take him.

Another good one was him smacking Billy Paultz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VtrIz4ROC0


Fan of both of them, but Hakeem was the better player, IMO.

[tragicbronson]

This forum....................WTF is wrong with some of you people?

Hakeem by a country mile, and then some.

Delusional prick strikes again

[houston]

Tougher, Better competition in his era, as opposed to Duncan's era where elite big men are almost nonexistent.


Man Hakeem only beat Ewing,Robinson,Shaq to win the titles. If Hakeem era was so great with bigs why Jordan and Pippen won the most in his era. Plus when Jordan retire Hakeem and Robinson with Duncan was the only great bigs that won anyways.


Duncan had Amare,Dirk,Garnett,Pau Gasol,Chris Bosh, etc in his era to deal with so lets not act like he played against scrubs.

[TheReal Kendall]

Both are/were great players and HOFamers but me personally I would take The Dream.

If you're building a team you really can't go wrong with either player. Both are great teammates and they don't have egos.

I feel like Dream got a higher skill level though and it's not a knock on Tim cause he's up there to.

[Y2ktors]

Man Hakeem only beat Ewing,Robinson,Shaq to win the titles. If Hakeem era was so great with bigs why Jordan and Pippen won the most in his era. Plus when Jordan retire Hakeem and Robinson with Duncan was the only great bigs that won anyways.


Duncan had Amare,Dirk,Garnett,Pau Gasol,Chris Bosh, etc in his era to deal with so lets not act like he played against scrubs.

Parish, Kareem, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mutumbo, Mourning, Daugherty(damn good before his back went out), Moses Malone,

Hakeem's team also beat Kareem's lakers down in 1986, in a series that he averaged 31 pts 11 reb.

Hakeem dominated Roy Tarpley and anyone else who tried to guard him in 1988 playoffs: 37 pts 16 reb averages.

Hakeem's Rockets beat Barkley's Suns TWICE, Stockton and Malone TWICE and dominated Ewing and D-Rob head to head.

And Jordan is GOAT. Of course he's supposed to win all of those championships.

[SCdac]

Man Hakeem only beat Ewing,Robinson,Shaq to win the titles. If Hakeem era was so great with bigs why Jordan and Pippen won the most in his era. Plus when Jordan retire Hakeem and Robinson with Duncan was the only great bigs that won anyways.


Duncan had Amare,Dirk,Garnett,Pau Gasol,Chris Bosh, etc in his era to deal with so lets not act like he played against scrubs.

Not to mention prime Shaq... while ending the threepeat Lakers

In all, Duncan's Spurs went through Shaq's team 3 times (99, 03, 08)... twice in championship years

http://www.nba.com/media/suns/shaq_lakers_duncan.jpg

[Stringer Bell]

Both are/were great players and HOFamers but me personally I would take The Dream.

If you're building a team you really can't go wrong with either player. Both are great teammates and they don't have egos.

I feel like Dream got a higher skill level though and it's not a knock on Tim cause he's up there to.

Hakeem had an ego too. Not Kobe/Shaq like but I remember him whining about a last-second shot in the regular season being designed for Barkley and not him. He publicly bashed Rudy T. in the late 90s (after they had won 2 titles together) by saying "I want to go play with a coach that knows how to use a big man".

His ego was a reason why he embarassed D-Rob so bad in 1995, so it's not like it's necessarily a bad thing. I doubt there's any player in the league that DOESN'T have one.

[Legends66NBA7]

In all, Duncan's Spurs went through Shaq's team 3 times (99, 03, 08)

It wasn't Shaq's "team" in 08.

[Stringer Bell]

It wasn't Shaq's "team" in 08.

Yeah, and the Lakers beat the Spurs in 08' anyway.

[r0drig0lac]

beat a prime shaq together with the second highest all time SG >>> anything other than beat a prime wilt

[SCdac]

It wasn't Shaq's "team" in 08.

"A team Shaq was on", is what I meant...

Suns specifically traded for Shaq to start playing more of a half court game but also to stop Duncan & the Spurs.

In short, it didn't work. Duncan averaged 25 ppg/14 rpg/2.4 bpg in 40 mpg against the Suns in a near sweep.

[sportjames23]

Man Hakeem only beat Ewing,Robinson,Shaq to win the titles. If Hakeem era was so great with bigs why Jordan and Pippen won the most in his era. Plus when Jordan retire Hakeem and Robinson with Duncan was the only great bigs that won anyways.


Duncan had Amare,Dirk,Garnett,Pau Gasol,Chris Bosh, etc in his era to deal with so lets not act like he played against scrubs.


:facepalm

Hakeem had Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, Mutombo, Daugherty, and Smits. All big men who'd put today's centers to shame offensively and/or defensively. Plus, he had to deal with power forwards like Malone, Kemp, and Derrick Coleman.

[sportjames23]

Parish, Kareem, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mutumbo, Mourning, Daugherty(damn good before his back went out), Moses Malone,

Hakeem's team also beat Kareem's lakers down in 1986, in a series that he averaged 31 pts 11 reb.

Hakeem dominated Roy Tarpley and anyone else who tried to guard him in 1988 playoffs: 37 pts 16 reb averages.

Hakeem's Rockets beat Barkley's Suns TWICE, Stockton and Malone TWICE and dominated Ewing and D-Rob head to head.

And Jordan is GOAT. Of course he's supposed to win all of those championships.


Ether. :cheers:

[Odinn]

If we say Hakeem's prime was 89-96 and Duncan's prime was 99-08, in those period;

Hakeem had 3 first-round exits, 1 time missed the playoffs.
Notable centers(players) who played against Hakeem;
P. Ewing 1 time
S. O'Neal 1 time
D. Robinson 1 time
S. Kemp 2 times
C. Barkley 3 times

Duncan had no first-round exit - at least 2nd round, never missed the playoffs.
Notable PFs(players) who played against Duncan;
S. O'Neal 5 times
A. Stoudemire 4 times
D. Nowitzki 3 times
K. Martin 3 times
K. Garnett 2 times
P. Gasol 2 times
R. Wallace 2 times


People talk like Hakeem played against an all-time great big in every playoff series he ever had and embarrassed them like he did in 1995 against the DRob.

[SCdac]

If we say Hakeem's prime was 89-96 and Duncan's prime was 99-08, in those period;

Hakeem had 3 first-round exits, 1 time missed the playoffs.
Notable centers(players) who played against Hakeem;
P. Ewing 1 time
S. O'Neal 1 time
D. Robinson 1 time
S. Kemp 2 times
C. Barkley 3 times

Duncan had no first-round exit - at least 2nd round, never missed the playoffs.
Notable PFs(players) who played against Duncan;
S. O'Neal 5 times
A. Stoudemire 4 times
D. Nowitzki 3 times
K. Martin 3 times
K. Garnett 2 times
P. Gasol 2 times
R. Wallace 2 times


People talk like Hakeem played against an all-time great big in every playoff series he ever had and embarrassed them like he did in 1995 against the DRob.

Both the Wallace's were great

[SamuraiSWISH]

Hakeem, no contest to me.

[Big#50]

Duncan needs to be compared to KAJ and Shaq. Hakeem is one tier lower.

[sportjames23]

Duncan needs to be compared to KAJ and Shaq. Hakeem is one tier lower.


:wtf:

[Round Mound]

Hakeem Was Better Offensively in The Post He Was Onstoppable

Defensively: Could Rim Protect, Man To Man and Floor Defense Like David Robinson and Garnett.

Rebounding is Close.

Ballhandling and Passing: Tim Duncan

Overall as a Player: Hakeem Was Better.

[oarabbus]

Duncan needs to be compared to KAJ and Shaq. Hakeem is one tier lower.


Care to explain?

[houston]

Parish, Kareem, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mutumbo, Mourning, Daugherty(damn good before his back went out), Moses Malone,

Hakeem's team also beat Kareem's lakers down in 1986, in a series that he averaged 31 pts 11 reb.

Hakeem dominated Roy Tarpley and anyone else who tried to guard him in 1988 playoffs: 37 pts 16 reb averages.

Hakeem's Rockets beat Barkley's Suns TWICE, Stockton and Malone TWICE and dominated Ewing and D-Rob head to head.

And Jordan is GOAT. Of course he's supposed to win all of those championships.



Hakeem came into the NBA with Ralph Sampson on his team. The 86 West Finals he wasn't even guarding Kareem it was Sampson. Hakeem was feasting on Kurt Rambis and Maurice Lucas. Plus those two got outplayed by Kevin Mchale and Robert Parish. Anyways Kareem even though played at high level was past his prime. Funny when Shaq straight up embarrassed Hakeem in the 99 playoffs Dream lovers use the "he was too old" excuse even though he was playing at all-nba level.


Roy Tarpley?? really that dopehead Hakeem should dominate him plus Rockets lost that series. Why don't you mention 90 and 98 playoff series where Hakeem played terrible in?


Hakeem in his championship years had Otis Thorpe and Clyde Drexler as his runningmates. OT was matchup against,Buck,Chuck,Mailman and Oak. While Dream dominate some weak crop of centers. Then in the Finals he outplayed Ewing but the Rockets were the better team period. But Thorpe was the team leading rebounder in the series. Sam Cassell had some big moments in that playoff run too.

Hakeem had Drexler his second run so enough said on that.

[Y2ktors]

Hakeem came into the NBA with Ralph Sampson on his team. The 86 West Finals he wasn't even guarding Kareem it was Sampson. Hakeem was feasting on Kurt Rambis and Maurice Lucas. Plus those two got outplayed by Kevin Mchale and Robert Parish. Anyways Kareem even though played at high level was past his prime. Funny when Shaq straight up embarrassed Hakeem in the 99 playoffs Dream lovers use the "he was too old" excuse even though he was playing at all-nba level.


Roy Tarpley?? really that dopehead Hakeem should dominate him plus Rockets lost that series. Why don't you mention 90 and 98 playoff series where Hakeem played terrible in?


Hakeem in his championship years had Otis Thorpe and Clyde Drexler as his runningmates. OT was matchup against,Buck,Chuck,Mailman and Oak. While Dream dominate some weak crop of centers. Then in the Finals he outplayed Ewing but the Rockets were the better team period. But Thorpe was the team leading rebounder in the series. Sam Cassell had some big moments in that playoff run too.

Hakeem had Drexler his second run so enough said on that.


Anything to diss Hakeem I see....even lie.

[houston]

Anything to diss Hakeem I see....even lie.


Yet you have no comeback:roll:

[Big#50]

Care to explain?
Tim
4 rings
2 reg season mvps
3 finals mvps

vs

Hakeem
2 rings
1 season mvp
2 finals mvp

They were too close in skill to say who is better. But Tim got way more of his teammates. Lets not forget Hakeem played in the center friendly era. Rules changes during Duncans prime were changed to perimeter player friendly in hopes of a new Jordan. Centers were really hurt by these changes. Duncan still went out there and was the best player in the league for at least four different seasons.

[Sarcastic]

The Dream had a NBA top 5 peak.


LOL Wut?


NO!!!!


MJ
Wilt
Bird
KAJ
Magic

were all better BY FAR in terms of peak, and that's not even counting Lebronz, whose peak is still going and better already.

[LAZERUSS]

LOL Wut?


NO!!!!


MJ
Wilt
Bird
KAJ
Magic

were all better BY FAR in terms of peak, and that's not even counting Lebronz, whose peak is still going and better already.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

You can add Shaq and Moses to that list too.

[Y2ktors]

Tim
4 rings
2 reg season mvps
3 finals mvps

vs

Hakeem
2 rings
1 season mvp
2 finals mvp



They were too close in skill to say who is better. But Tim got way more of his teammates. Lets not forget Hakeem played in the center friendly era. Rules changes during Duncans prime were changed to perimeter player friendly in hopes of a new Jordan. Centers were really hurt by these changes. Duncan still went out there and was the best player in the league for at least four different seasons.

Duncan played in a weaker era, so of course he'll build up more accolades. He didn't play against MJ, Magic, Bird when they were dominating the league.

[millwad]

Hakeem came into the NBA with Ralph Sampson on his team. The 86 West Finals he wasn't even guarding Kareem it was Sampson. Hakeem was feasting on Kurt Rambis and Maurice Lucas. Plus those two got outplayed by Kevin Mchale and Robert Parish. Anyways Kareem even though played at high level was past his prime. Funny when Shaq straight up embarrassed Hakeem in the 99 playoffs Dream lovers use the "he was too old" excuse even though he was playing at all-nba level.


Roy Tarpley?? really that dopehead Hakeem should dominate him plus Rockets lost that series. Why don't you mention 90 and 98 playoff series where Hakeem played terrible in?


Hakeem in his championship years had Otis Thorpe and Clyde Drexler as his runningmates. OT was matchup against,Buck,Chuck,Mailman and Oak. While Dream dominate some weak crop of centers. Then in the Finals he outplayed Ewing but the Rockets were the better team period. But Thorpe was the team leading rebounder in the series. Sam Cassell had some big moments in that playoff run too.

Hakeem had Drexler his second run so enough said on that.

Haha, this shit is too funny.

I knew that Jlauber was pathetic but I could never imagine that the old fart would create a new account just to belittle Olajuwon.

All the same arguments and even though you tried to avoid writing like you always do, Jlauber, it is obvious that this is one of your alts. No one uses your arguments or your lame words which you think make your arguments look stronger and more punchy.

[Y2ktors]

Haha, this shit is too funny.

I knew that Jlauber was pathetic but I could never imagine that the old fart would create a new account just to belittle Olajuwon.

All the same arguments and even though you tried to avoid writing like you always do, Jlauber, it is obvious that this is one of your alts. No one uses your arguments or your lame words which you think make your arguments look stronger and more punchy.

LOL!!!!! :lol

[millwad]

LOL Wut?


NO!!!!


MJ
Wilt
Bird
KAJ
Magic

were all better BY FAR in terms of peak, and that's not even counting Lebronz, whose peak is still going and better already.

That is laughable and stupid, Wilt didn't win anything during his stat prime and when he finally won he did it as the tied 2nd option on offense which was in '67.

KAJ didn't have a better prime either, a better career though.

Magic, Bird and MJ are up there with Hakeem.

[Big#50]

Duncan played in a weaker era, so of course he'll build up more accolades. He didn't play against MJ, Magic, Bird when they were dominating the league.
He beat Shaq and Kobe.

[millwad]

LOL!!!!! :lol

If you're a new poster, don't bother him.

He has at least 3 accounts, he is "Lazeruss" as well.

[sportjames23]

He beat Shaq and Kobe.


And they beat him.

[Big#50]

And they beat him.
So competition wasnt easy then......?..........????

[millwad]

He beat Shaq and Kobe.

Please, which big men did Duncan beat during his title runs and prime? Shaq is a center and he was barely guarded by Duncan, he was guarded by Robinson.

Please, tell us about the great big men Duncan faced.

[Y2ktors]

And they beat him.

They beat Duncan's Spurs more than Duncan beat them.

Duncan vs Kobe and Shaq

2-3

Duncan vs Kobe

0-1

[Y2ktors]

Please, which big men did Duncan beat during his title runs and prime? Shaq is a center and he was barely guarded by Duncan, he was guarded by Robinson.

Please, tell us about the great big men Duncan faced.
Dirk and KG are the only ones that come to mind...and they aren't typical big men ala Shaq, Dream, Ewing, etc.

[millwad]

So competition wasnt easy then......?..........????

Please tell us about the big men Duncan faced during his prime.

Duncan is the same guy who got absolutely shitted on by a 22 year old Stoudemire in the playoffs.

lets not forget that the GOAT defender Duncan got shitted on by a 22 year old Stoudemire a la;

Over 5 games in '05 a 22 year old Amare Stoudemire did following crazy scoring on DUNCAN in the WCF;

Stoudemire in Game 1; 41 points on 61% shooting.
Stoudemire in Game 2; 37 points on 60% shooting.
Stoudemire in game 3; 34 points on 50% shooting.
Stoudemire in game 4; 31 points on 56% shooting.
Stoudemire in game 5; 42 points on 50% shooting.

[Y2ktors]

If you're a new poster, don't bother him.

He has at least 3 accounts, he is "Lazeruss" as well.

good heads up. I don't know anyone other than fpliiii and ripper76 on this board.

[Y2ktors]

Please tell us about the big men Duncan faced during his prime.

Duncan is the same guy who got absolutely shitted on by a 22 year old Stoudemire in the playoffs.

lets not forget that the GOAT defender Duncan got shitted on by a 22 year old Stoudemire a la;

Over 5 games in '05 a 22 year old Amare Stoudemire did following crazy scoring on DUNCAN in the WCF;

Stoudemire in Game 1; 41 points on 61% shooting.
Stoudemire in Game 2; 37 points on 60% shooting.
Stoudemire in game 3; 34 points on 50% shooting.
Stoudemire in game 4; 31 points on 56% shooting.
Stoudemire in game 5; 42 points on 50% shooting.

Oh yeah I forgot about Amar'e. Duncan couldn't keep up with him.

[millwad]

Dirk and KG are the only ones that come to mind...and they aren't typical big men ala Shaq, Dream, Ewing, etc.

Garnett definitely held his own against Duncan in the playoffs and in 2003 Dirk went down with an injury in the middle of a tight playoff series against TD.

[T_L_P]

You guys are seriously underselling Duncan.

Tell me, who were some of the great bigs that Hakeem went up against when he was getting knocked out of the first round year after year? Michael Cage?

Dream is the choice, but don't act like if Hakeem was drafted in Duncan's exact situation, with the exact same teammates, he'd have 7 or 8 rings.

[SCdac]

Oh yeah I forgot about Amar'e. Duncan couldn't keep up with him.

Eh, Duncan averaged 27 ppg / 14 rpg and the Phoenix Suns were nearly swept.

For all those points Amare scored, it didn't matter, he wasn't the most important player on that Suns team (Nash was), and Spurs knew it.

[millwad]

You guys are seriously underselling Duncan.

Tell me, who were some of the great bigs that Hakeem went up against when he was getting knocked out of the first round year after year? Michael Cage?

Dream is the choice, but don't act like if Hakeem was drafted in Duncan's exact situation, with the exact same teammates, he'd have 7 or 8 rings.

That wasn't my point at all.
But you're taking it out of context if you write what you wrote in the first paragraph without mentioning the awful roster he was one.

I am definitely not saying that Hakeem would crazy much more in Duncan's situation but in my book he is without no doubt better than Duncan. He faced way better big men, he was a better offensive player and a defensive player as well.

[Big#50]

Please, which big men did Duncan beat during his title runs and prime? Shaq is a center and he was barely guarded by Duncan, he was guarded by Robinson.

Please, tell us about the great big men Duncan faced.
He only beat one of the greatest defensive teams ever, with one of the greatest defensive players ever in Wallace and Sheed. He beat Shaq and Kobe. Thats the third greatest player ever and the seventh. Hakeem beat Ewing. Hakeem beat a scared Robinson. A young Shaq that was the third best big in the league behind Dream and Robinson. Hakeem couldn't beat Kemp and the Sonics.

[DMAVS41]

Eh, Duncan averaged 27 ppg / 14 rpg and the Phoenix Suns were nearly swept.

For all those points Amare scored, it didn't matter, he wasn't the most important player on that Suns team (Nash was), and Spurs knew it.

This.

I'll go with Duncan. Hakeem was more athletic and had more raw talent, but he also didn't play within the system as well as Duncan did (and that might not be fair due to different circumstances, but it happened)

Hakeem might have been better in Duncan's role on the Spurs than Duncan was, but we just don't know.

When two players are this close impact and skill wise...etc...I'll go with the player that has had the better career. And that is Duncan.

I also think Hakeem tends to get just a little over-rated here. His numbers make him look ever so slightly better than he actually was imo.

[Y2ktors]

Garnett definitely held his own against Duncan in the playoffs and in 2003 Dirk went down with an injury in the middle of a tight playoff series against TD.


The 2006 dirk vs Duncan series was a classic. I enjoyed that duel very much.

[Y2ktors]

This.

I'll go with Duncan. Hakeem was more athletic and had more raw talent, but he also didn't play within the system as well as Duncan did (and that might not be fair due to different circumstances, but it happened)

Hakeem might have been better in Duncan's role on the Spurs than Duncan was, but we just don't know.

When two players are this close impact and skill wise...etc...I'll go with the player that has had the better career. And that is Duncan.

I also think Hakeem tends to get just a little over-rated here. His numbers make him look ever so slightly better than he actually was imo.

That's unjust towards Hakeem. He played in a tougher era and a different position than Duncan, which is why his accolades don't match up.

But also playing within the system has nothing to do with actual talent. The triangle offense worked better WITHOUT Jordan but you'd be crazy to diss MJ for that fact.

[millwad]

He only beat one of the greatest defensive teams ever, with one of the greatest defensive players ever in Wallace and Sheed. He beat Shaq and Kobe. Thats the third greatest player ever and the seventh. Hakeem beat Ewing. Hakeem beat a scared Robinson. A young Shaq that was the third best big in the league behind Dream and Robinson. Hakeem couldn't beat Kemp and the Sonics.

Haha, Sheed is not one of the best defensive players ever and Wallace is great but not someone you have to play defense against.

Duncan got beaten more by Shaq and Kobe than the other way around and the 2003 Laker team wasn't impressive at all. So Duncan beating a team who only managed to win 50 games that season is suddenly an amazing thing to achieve.

Then you have Hakeem who crushed Ewing and Robinson in their prime and who outplayed Shaq who was 2nd in the MVP voting in '95. The same Olajuwon who crushed Kareem in '86 and who lead his team to the finals as a 2nd year pro.

[DMAVS41]

That's unjust towards Hakeem. He played in a tougher era and a different position than Duncan, which is why his accolades don't match up.

But also playing within the system has nothing to do with actual talent. The triangle offense worked better WITHOUT Jordan but you'd be crazy to diss MJ for that fact.

Nah, Hakeem just played differently than Duncan...and it impacted his numbers.

Duncan could play more for numbers...and it wouldn't make him any better...in fact, he'd be worse in my eyes.

I'm going solely off my opinion of watching them both play. They are just so close to really decide...

[Im Still Ballin]

Hakeem by a tiny bit.

In terms of talent/skill/athleticism he is better than Tim. I do feel that Hakeem could play in a system similar to San Antonio's with just as much success as TD has had.

Everything Tim can do, Hakeem can do just as good, if not better

[houston]

Duncan played in a weaker era, so of course he'll build up more accolades. He didn't play against MJ, Magic, Bird when they were dominating the league.



:roll:

Hakeem wasn't on those dudes level. Dream never made All-NBA 1st team 3x in a row. Even at his peak David Robinson was just as equal to Hakeem. Come on man Dream won a championship while being third team All-NBA.


Dream and Robinson won MVPs and championships when Jordan had retire. I'm sure if Jordan was playing he would at least took one of their MVPs. Dream outplayed Robinson in 95 West finals but Dream also had Drexler. If it wasn't for Drexler Dream wouldn't got his second title. We seen what Duncan did to help Robinson legacy out. Duncan was clearly his team best player from day one when he got drafted.


Hakeem is the same dude that miss the playoffs with an all-star and couldn't win championship with two hall of famers playing at all-star level:facepalm But yet he is on the level of Bird,Magic, and MJ.:oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Duncan by the slightest of margins. PEAK Hakeem was better than Duncan ever was though, IMO at least.

[HurricaneKid]

The pendulum has swung way too far on Olajuwon. He was clearly underrated in his day but there is no way his career has matched TDs.

If he hadn't dominated Robinson in that series in 95 we wouldn't be talking about him, we would be talking about Robinson (who also went 24/11/3/2/2 in that series).

Olajuwon's pinnacle was in 95 when he was CLEARLY the 3rd best C in the league who got hot in the playoffs.

Looking back at 94 through the advanced stats lenses we can see that Robinson was more deserving of that MVP as well.

[IGOTGAME]

This.

I'll go with Duncan. Hakeem was more athletic and had more raw talent, but he also didn't play within the system as well as Duncan did (and that might not be fair due to different circumstances, but it happened)

Hakeem might have been better in Duncan's role on the Spurs than Duncan was, but we just don't know.

When two players are this close impact and skill wise...etc...I'll go with the player that has had the better career. And that is Duncan.

I also think Hakeem tends to get just a little over-rated here. His numbers make him look ever so slightly better than he actually was imo.

I agree too. I really feel like Duncan is one of the most underrated guys to have ever played.

[millwad]

:roll:

Hakeem wasn't on those dudes level. Dream never made All-NBA 1st team 3x in a row. Even at his peak David Robinson was just as equal to Hakeem. Come on man Dream won a championship while being third team All-NBA.


Dream and Robinson won MVPs and championships when Jordan had retire. I'm sure if Jordan was playing he would at least took one of their MVPs. Dream outplayed Robinson in 95 West finals but Dream also had Drexler. If it wasn't for Drexler Dream wouldn't got his second title. We seen what Duncan did to help Robinson legacy out. Duncan was clearly his team best player from day one when he got drafted.


Hakeem is the same dude that miss the playoffs with an all-star and couldn't win championship with two hall of famers playing at all-star level:facepalm But yet he is on the level of Bird,Magic, and MJ.:oldlol:

Now I know for sure that you're Jlauber, I can't imagine how sad and pathetic your life must be. Not only the fact that you started yet a new account, you chose the name "Houston" as if that would fool someone.

I like how you know try to write in a more new fashion way a la writing "man" after a statement. Haha, I felt sorry for you before but you just made yourself look even more pathetic.

[millwad]

The pendulum has swung way too far on Olajuwon. He was clearly underrated in his day but there is no way his career has matched TDs.

If he hadn't dominated Robinson in that series in 95 we wouldn't be talking about him, we would be talking about Robinson (who also went 24/11/3/2/2 in that series).

Olajuwon's pinnacle was in 95 when he was CLEARLY the 3rd best C in the league who got hot in the playoffs.

You know who's the best in the playoffs, completely irrelevant to claim that he was the third best C in '95 when he outplayed both Shaq who was the 2nd best and when he crushed Robinson who was the best.

[millwad]

Nah, Hakeem just played differently than Duncan...and it impacted his numbers.

Duncan could play more for numbers...and it wouldn't make him any better...in fact, he'd be worse in my eyes.

I'm going solely off my opinion of watching them both play. They are just so close to really decide...

So Hakeem's style of playing lead him to be a more dominant shot blocker, a better ball stealer, a better scorer with higher FG%, a better offensive player and defensive player.

[Y2ktors]

You know who's the best in the playoffs, completely irrelevant to claim that he was the third best C in '95 when he outplayed both Shaq who was the 2nd best and when he crushed Robinson who was the best.

Hakeem also missed 12 games that season, which hurt his case. But being 3rd to those two guys is nothing to be ashamed of.


Btw, why didn't the alt mention the 1993 MVP award that Dream could have easily won?

[Y2ktors]

So Hakeem's style of playing lead him to be a more dominant shot blocker, a better ball stealer, a better scorer with higher FG%, a better offensive player and defensive player.
Hakeem played to win, just like Tim. Except one put up better numbers than the other.

[houston]

The pendulum has swung way too far on Olajuwon. He was clearly underrated in his day but there is no way his career has matched TDs.

If he hadn't dominated Robinson in that series in 95 we wouldn't be talking about him, we would be talking about Robinson (who also went 24/11/3/2/2 in that series).

Olajuwon's pinnacle was in 95 when he was CLEARLY the 3rd best C in the league who got hot in the playoffs.

Looking back at 94 through the advanced stats lenses we can see that Robinson was more deserving of that MVP as well.


Of course Tim Duncan is better. Even though Hakeem was more athletic than Duncan. I mean Vince Carter was more athletic Paul Pierce but Pierce is better. Dominque Wilkins was more athletic than Larry Bird but Bird is better.


Hakeem wasn't underrated back in the day. The same criticism Dwight Howard had Hakeem had the same too. Hakeem was a raw talent who played athletic skills.

[Pointguard]

Peak, I got Hakeem, but overall its Duncan. Duncan is the reason why I count habits in evaluating a player and why I think Embiid will be an all-time great as well. Duncan and his team rarely had a down year on the bases that he could be counted on to keep everything above "very good play" mentally and physically over a 14 year span. Like Jordan, he rarely had a game that you thought he wasn't effective. His basement level was well above sea level.

[Y2ktors]

:wtf:
Peak, I got Hakeem, but overall its Duncan. Duncan is the reason why I count habits in evaluating a player and why I think Embiid will be an all-time great as well. Duncan and his team rarely had a down year on the bases that he could be counted on to keep everything above "very good play" mentally and physically over a 14 year span. Like Jordan, he rarely had a game that you thought he wasn't effective. His basement level was well above sea level.

Duncan also had the stability from his organization that Hakeem didn't until Rudy T and Leslie Alexander so that's not right to hold that against him.

[SCdac]

Peak, I got Hakeem, but overall its Duncan. Duncan is the reason why I count habits in evaluating a player and why I think Embiid will be an all-time great as well. Duncan and his team rarely had a down year on the bases that he could be counted on to keep everything above "very good play" mentally and physically over a 14 year span. Like Jordan, he rarely had a game that you thought he wasn't effective. His basement level was well above sea level.

Exactly. The guy has been a foundation for the Spurs since day 1, remarkable rookie season and is still going strong. Pop was a relatively inexperienced head coach initially, and Duncan has seen teammates come and go. His "groundhog day" like consistency is something in itself. Willingness to the share the lead yet still be the leader. 4 championships, yet from the first championship (99) to the last (07) Duncan is the only constant. That's impressive.

Dude is just a model for consistency... playoff warrior too
http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/970683_10151551857738463_1261227947_n.jpg

[houston]

:roll: Hakeem excuses why he failed. It ain't Rockets fault Sampson got hurt and certain key rockets was cocaine abusers. Dream was just immature player back in the day.

[Pointguard]

Of course Tim Duncan is better. Even though Hakeem was more athletic than Duncan. I mean Vince Carter was more athletic Paul Pierce but Pierce is better. Dominque Wilkins was more athletic than Larry Bird but Bird is better.

Hakeem wasn't underrated back in the day. The same criticism Dwight Howard had Hakeem had the same too. Hakeem was a raw talent who played athletic skills.
In all fairness, Hakeem was the most skilled post player probably ever. Even Jordan came back from baseball looking like Hakeem. Duncan wasn't more skilled - but Duncan did stay on being fundamental consistently in every game but Hakeem was the most enhanced skilled centers ever or he employed more skills than any center. He was like what KG was too the Power Forward position. Both came in raw but at their peaks they were the most complete players at their positions.

[Pointguard]

:wtf:

Duncan also had the stability from his organization that Hakeem didn't until Rudy T and Leslie Alexander so that's not right to hold that against him.

Nothing at all against Hakeem. Duncan is one of the best there is at that quality. His team never had bad years with him and overachieve almost every other year. And his team takes on his personality. He's really unique in this regard.

[sportjames23]

In all fairness, Hakeem was the most skilled post player probably ever. Even Jordan came back from baseball looking like Hakeem. Duncan wasn't more skilled - but Duncan did stay on being fundamental consistently in every game but Hakeem was the most enhanced skilled centers ever or he employed more skills than any center. He was like what KG was too the Power Forward position. Both came in raw but at their peaks they were the most complete players at their positions.


What? MJ had the post game BEFORE he retired in 1993.

Come correct, son.

[houston]

In all fairness, Hakeem was the most skilled post player probably ever. Even Jordan came back from baseball looking like Hakeem. Duncan wasn't more skilled - but Duncan did stay on being fundamental consistently in every game but Hakeem was the most enhanced skilled centers ever or he employed more skills than any center. He was like what KG was too the Power Forward position. Both came in raw but at their peaks they were the most complete players at their positions.


Nobody isn't question Hakeem greatness. The problem is people overrating his greatness. Dream,KG,Gasol,Rasheed, Dirk,Bosh all are skilled bigmen. But what they all have in common is they lack power in their game. They all was finesse players. Shaq and Moses Malone had power in their game and had higher peaks than the players I just name.


Duncan was just a more dominant player than Dream period. Had a better understanding on how to win from day one. Duncan did more for his team to win. Hell Hakeem played with better players than Duncan throughout his career. It a reason why Coach Pop is longest reigning coach in the nba it cause of Duncan.

[Y2ktors]

Nothing at all against Hakeem. Duncan is one of the best there is at that quality. His team never had bad years with him and overachieve almost every other year. And his team takes on his personality. He's really unique in this regard.

I'd say that that is more Popovich than Timmy. Pop went out and got guys to fit his system and his environment. The culture that they have was in place before Duncan ever played a second in the NBA.

Now Tim, as the best player, embraced that and it has paid great dividends for him and the entire Spurs franchise.

[Y2ktors]

What? MJ had the post game BEFORE he retired in 1993.

Come correct, son.

He did, but not to the level that his post game turned out to be by the end of his career.

[Y2ktors]

Houston, u have a problem.

[rmt]

Exactly. The guy has been a foundation for the Spurs since day 1, remarkable rookie season and is still going strong. Pop was a relatively inexperienced head coach initially, and Duncan has seen teammates come and go. His "groundhog day" like consistency is something in itself. Willingness to the share the lead yet still be the leader. 4 championships, yet from the first championship (99) to the last (07) Duncan is the only constant. That's impressive.

Dude is just a model for consistency... playoff warrior too
http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/970683_10151551857738463_1261227947_n.jpg

Playoff double-doubles are up to 149 now - only 9 more to break Magic's record with 2 more playoffs to go - very doable. Of course after being 28 seconds away from a 5th championship and failing, nothing is for sure - especially in basketball.

Anyway, all this angst over Hakeem vs Duncan. This is how I see it:

Peak - Hakeem
Career - Duncan

I'll vote for the whole career. People can hypothesize - if this, if that, all that matters is what really happened. Both are among the best two-way big men that ever played.

[Pointguard]

What? MJ had the post game BEFORE he retired in 1993.

Come correct, son.
Two 55 point games in the playoffs in '93, the year he left for baseball, not one (possibly one) deep post Hakeem move.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibuSDuKAIFw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A

[Y2ktors]

Playoff double-doubles are up to 149 now - only 9 more to break Magic's record with 2 more playoffs to go - very doable. Of course after being 28 seconds away from a 5th championship and failing, nothing is for sure - especially in basketball.

Anyway, all this angst over Hakeem vs Duncan. This is how I see it:

Peak - Hakeem
Career - Duncan

I'll vote for the whole career. People can hypothesize - if this, if that, all that matters is what really happened. Both are among the best two-way big men that ever played.

When you say "career" what are you taking into account?

[rmt]

When you say "career" what are you taking into account?

Everything - the individual and team accolades - MVPs, FMVPs, all-NBAs, all-Defensive, rings, winning percentage, consistency, leadership. Duncan's career > Hakeem's career. The one thing Hakeem has up on TD (as far as accolades is concerned) is DPOY.

Others might value peak/skill and imagine what would have been, but that's subjective (coulda, shoulda, woulda). It's not like Duncan's exactly chopped liver when it comes to skill or fundamentals or that he didn't lead a young inexperienced Parker, SJax and Manu to a championship in 03. Hakeem had the advantage in athleticism, speed, strength - all the physical stuff. Maybe Duncan - more the intangibles.

[Big#50]

Duncan would have crushed DROB in a playoff series. Duncan is on another level in the playoffs compared to Robinson. Never seen one player overrated like Hakeem got after the 95wcf. Malone crushed DROB worse. Malone ****ing Karl Malone.

[Y2ktors]

Everything - the individual and team accolades - MVPs, FMVPs, all-NBAs, all-Defensive, rings, winning percentage, consistency, leadership. Duncan's career > Hakeem's career. The one thing Hakeem has up on TD (as far as accolades is concerned) is DPOY.

Others might value peak/skill and imagine what would have been, but that's subjective (coulda, shoulda, woulda). It's not like Duncan's exactly chopped liver when it comes to skill or fundamentals or that he didn't lead a young inexperienced Parker, SJax and Manu to a championship in 03. Hakeem had the advantage in athleticism, speed, strength - all the physical stuff. Maybe Duncan - more the intangibles.

See I value these things...but to a reasonable extent. Small Example:

Bill Russell was only named to All-NBA first team 3 times in his career, as opposed to Dwight Howard, who has been named 5 times. Competition is a HUGE part in what I look at first when I'm looking at accolades. I'm sure that you can guess who was on the All-NBA first team for most of Russell's career.

I'm not knocking your opinion as to what you value but just giving you my perspective.

[houston]

See I value these things...but to a reasonable extent. Small Example:

Bill Russell was only named to All-NBA first team 3 times in his career, as opposed to Dwight Howard, who has been named 5 times. Competition is a HUGE part in what I look at first when I'm looking at accolades. I'm sure that you can guess who was on the All-NBA first team for most of Russell's career.

I'm not knocking your opinion as to what you value but just giving you my perspective.


Man Russell was All-nba 11 times in a row with 5 MVPs plus 11 rings. MVP is a impact award you don't have to make first team to win MVP.:lol Dave Cowens won MVP without making 1st team all-nba before.


LOL at weak attempt to make it seem like Duncan accolades is less impressive.

[juju151111]

Nobody isn't question Hakeem greatness. The problem is people overrating his greatness. Dream,KG,Gasol,Rasheed, Dirk,Bosh all are skilled bigmen. But what they all have in common is they lack power in their game. They all was finesse players. Shaq and Moses Malone had power in their game and had higher peaks than the players I just name.


Duncan was just a more dominant player than Dream period. Had a better understanding on how to win from day one. Duncan did more for his team to win. Hell Hakeem played with better players than Duncan throughout his career. It a reason why Coach Pop is longest reigning coach in the nba it cause of Duncan.
This is a lot of VS in one Post. Hakeem in the 80s didn't lack power in anything. He was dunking on everything, he was known for that in college. Duncan had a better organization,Coach, and overall better situation. Stop the BS. Betterr understanding on how to win from day 1? Are you retarded?. Hakeem led his team to the finals in his 2nd season. Pop is a great Coach and it shows how the Spurs were still having great seasons even when Duncan has down years in his old age. Go watch early Hakeem, Wayyyyyy better then Dwight

[Y2ktors]

Man Russell was All-nba 11 times in a row with 5 MVPs plus 11 rings. MVP is a impact award you don't have to make first team to win MVP.:lol Dave Cowens won MVP without making 1st team all-nba before.


LOL at weak attempt to make it seem like Duncan accolades is less impressive.


I see that you're incapable of an intelligent discussion, so please do continue to troll on.

[juju151111]

:roll:

Hakeem wasn't on those dudes level. Dream never made All-NBA 1st team 3x in a row. Even at his peak David Robinson was just as equal to Hakeem. Come on man Dream won a championship while being third team All-NBA.


Dream and Robinson won MVPs and championships when Jordan had retire. I'm sure if Jordan was playing he would at least took one of their MVPs. Dream outplayed Robinson in 95 West finals but Dream also had Drexler. If it wasn't for Drexler Dream wouldn't got his second title. We seen what Duncan did to help Robinson legacy out. Duncan was clearly his team best player from day one when he got drafted.


Hakeem is the same dude that miss the playoffs with an all-star and couldn't win championship with two hall of famers playing at all-star level:facepalm But yet he is on the level of Bird,Magic, and MJ.:oldlol:
Robinson was equal to Hakeem. Lmfao Drob at his peak got manhandled by 32 year old Hakeem who wasn't has good has before.

[Y2ktors]

This is a lot of VS in one Post. Hakeem in the 80s didn't lack power in anything. He was dunking on everything, he was known for that in college. Duncan had a better organization,Coach, and overall better situation. Stop the BS. Betterr understanding on how to win from day 1? Are you retarded?. Hakeem led his team to the finals in his 2nd season. Pop is a great Coach and it shows how the Spurs were still having great seasons even when Duncan has down years in his old age. Go watch early Hakeem, Wayyyyyy better then Dwight

Excellent post.

[Audio One]

Duncan needs to be compared to KAJ and Shaq. Hakeem is one tier lower.

:applause:

NO player in NBA history gets more passes and gets overrated than Akeem Olajuwon. Not one player, EVER

[r0drig0lac]

:applause:

NO player in NBA history gets more passes and gets overrated than Akeem Olajuwon. Not one player, EVER
cp3

[SamuraiSWISH]

Duncan would have crushed DROB in a playoff series
Hakeem would've made Duncan look silly. He always crushed his elite contemporaries. Just like Jordan. Got up for those games, took slights to heart. Duncan would look foolish. Hakeem is one of the only centers with the mobility, footwork, overall activity, and finesse game to make him look utterly stupid.

[Audio One]

cp3

Hakeem Olajuwon's widely considered to be a top-10 player, and arguably the greatest big man ever. Chris Paul gets his share of heat for his playoff failures. Maybe not by everyone, but no one's putting him on that pedastal anymore since he had that meniscus removed.

[Angel Face]

Hakeem would make Tim like his old team mate Admiral kneel before him.

[Big#50]

Hakeem would make Tim like his old team mate Admiral kneel before him.
Hakeem who averaged 27 ppg in the regular season. Then averaged 17 against ****ing Shawn Kemp and Ervin Johnson and was swept.

[Big#50]

Hakeem would've made Duncan look silly. He always crushed his elite contemporaries. Just like Jordan. Got up for those games, took slights to heart. Duncan would look foolish. Hakeem is one of the only centers with the mobility, footwork, overall activity, and finesse game to make him look utterly stupid.
LOL Just no. Because Duncan was a playoff failure right??? Duncan elevates his game in the playoffs as well. Hakeem looked nice against stiffs though.

[juju151111]

LOL Just no. Because Duncan was a playoff failure right??? Duncan elevates his game in the playoffs as well. Hakeem looked nice against stiffs though.
Stiffs, who were these stiffs exactly?

[Big#50]

Stiffs, who were these stiffs exactly?
Basically every big during the 80's and most of the 90's.

[juju151111]

Basically every big during the 80's and most of the 90's.
:lol clearly a troll.

[Big#50]

:lol clearly a troll.
Look at the starting centers around the league at the time. Most were horrible.

[LAZERUSS]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Hakeem a top-5 player????

My god, he was seldom a top-5 player when he PLAYED. He was voted in the top-4 in the MVP balloting, FOUR times in his 18 season career. He won ONE MVP award, in a season in which MJ took off (and because of it, his favored Rockets barely knocked out a lessor talented Knick team in game seven of the Finals.) He came in SECOND, ONE time. My god, he didn't even make the Top-TEN in EIGHT of his seasons.

And, how about the fact that he couldn't get past the FIRST ROUND in EIGHT of his 15 post-seasons? And in most of those, his team was blown out.

The reality was, he was a probably little more than a Top-10 player when he PLAYED. At best, his career is a borderline Top-TEN player. He has absolutely NO case over MJ, Magic, Russell, Wilt, KAJ, Shaq, Duncan, or Lebron. NONE. And he probably would be on the lessor end of any decent criteria in the cases of Kobe, Bird, and Moses. And if you include Dr. J's ABA seasons, he would finish behind him, as well.

He would be a solid #13.

[Y2ktors]

:lol clearly a troll.
Indeed.

[juju151111]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Hakeem a top-5 player????

My god, he was seldom a top-5 player when he PLAYED. He was voted in the top-4 in the MVP balloting, FOUR times in his 18 season career. He won ONE MVP award, in a season in which MJ took off (and because of it, his favored Rockets barely knocked out a lessor talented Knick team in game seven of the Finals.) He came in SECOND, ONE time. My god, he didn't even make the Top-TEN in EIGHT of his seasons.

And, how about the fact that he couldn't get past the FIRST ROUND in EIGHT of his 15 post-seasons? And in most of those, his team was blown out.

The reality was, he was a probably little more than a Top-10 player when he PLAYED. At best, his career is a borderline Top-TEN player. He has absolutely NO case over MJ, Magic, Russell, Wilt, KAJ, Shaq, Duncan, or Lebron. NONE. And he probably would be on the lessor end of any decent criteria in the cases of Kobe, Bird, and Moses. And if you include Dr. J's ABA seasons, he would finish behind him, as well.

He would be a solid #13.
Wilt A Top 5 player:roll: :roll:
So called best Center ever choked in the weak era.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt A Top 5 player:roll: :roll:
So called best Center ever choked in the weak era.

What's your definition of "choked?" Completely outplaying his HOF counterparts in vast majority of his 29 post-season series?

Or perhaps this...


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games, while, Wilt himself, shot 18-33 in those two games (.545.)

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

[Audio One]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Hakeem a top-5 player????

My god, he was seldom a top-5 player when he PLAYED. He was voted in the top-4 in the MVP balloting, FOUR times in his 18 season career. He won ONE MVP award, in a season in which MJ took off (and because of it, his favored Rockets barely knocked out a lessor talented Knick team in game seven of the Finals.) He came in SECOND, ONE time. My god, he didn't even make the Top-TEN in EIGHT of his seasons.

And, how about the fact that he couldn't get past the FIRST ROUND in NINE of his 15 post-seasons? And in most of those, his team was blown out.

The reality was, he was a probably little more than a Top-10 player when he PLAYED. At best, his career is a borderline Top-TEN player. He has absolutely NO case over MJ, Magic, Russell, Wilt, KAJ, Shaq, Duncan, or Lebron. NONE. And he probably would be on the lessor end of any decent criteria in the cases of Kobe, Bird, and Moses. And if you include Dr. J's ABA seasons, he would finish behind him, as well.

He's a solid top 25 player.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

Made a few corrections, but right on point as always my man

[LAZERUSS]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Made a few corrections, but right on point as always my man

The revisionist history here is just ridiculous. Hakeem has no business being lumped with the REAL GOATs. Very few at the time he PLAYED were making that claim (and please, no quotes...where were the VOTERS???)

He was a massive underachiever. And certainly the biggest "loser" on any GOAT list. The man never even played for a 60+ win team. Hell, hardly played on any 50+ win teams, either, in an 18 season career.

[juju151111]

The revisionist history here is just ridiculous. Hakeem has no business being lumped with the REAL GOATs. Very few at the time he PLAYED were making that claim (and please, no quotes...where were the VOTERS???)

He was a massive underachiever. And certainly the biggest "loser" on any GOAT list. The man never even played for a 60+ win team. Hell, hardly played on any 50+ win teams, either, in an 18 season career.
Overrated ass WIlt couldn't even beat a Russell led team but once lmao. Pure garbage, choked so many times. Wilt the so called best Center ever is the only underachiever.

[LAZERUSS]

Overrated ass WIlt couldn't even beat a Russell led team but once lmao. Pure garbage, choked so many times. Wilt the so called best Center ever is the only underachiever.

And MJ couldn't even beat Bird in ONE playoff game, much less a series. What a HUGE loser.

Hakeem? He was losing to the likes of Eaton, AC Green, Mychael Thompson, and an endless list of no-names in his post-seasons. Using your theory, the man was LOSER 16 times in his career.

KAJ. A prime KAJ could only win ONE ring...in a season in which his team beat a 41-41 team in the first round, a 48-34 team, without two of its best players (and in a series in which Chamberlain outplayed him)...and then a 42-40 team in the Finals. The rest of the decade his heavily favored teams were going down in flames, year-after-year, to teams with records of 47-35, 47-35, 49-33 (and being SWEPT) etc. Had it not been for MAGIC, he likely would have retired somewhere near the bottom of any GOAT list.

Bird? Lost SEVEN times with HCA (and stacked supporting rosters). And he was simply AWFUL in several of them. And yet, he whipped MJ easily.

Shaq? SWEPT SIX times in his post-season career, and lost to the likes of Greg Ostertag. Hell, he was nearly swept two more times.

Duncan? Using your standards...a LOSER in 13 seasons. BTW, MJ was a loser in NINE of his seasons (and didn't win anything without the best supporting rosters in the league...just look at the 93-94 Bulls for cryingoutloud.)

At least Wilt was "losing" to a GREAT teams...unlike the above clowns.

[SamuraiSWISH]

LOL Just no. Because Duncan was a playoff failure right??? Duncan elevates his game in the playoffs as well. Hakeem looked nice against stiffs though.
Hakeem's elevation against great contemporaries in the playoffs / Finals was superior to Duncan. Hakeem took his squad to back to backs, something Duncan obviously never achieved. Hell, Duncan couldn't even lead Team USA to a silver medal.

Duncan plays stiff compared to Hakeem's extreme body fluidity, and superior footwork. Athletic Shaq, D-Rob, none of those guys were "stiffs" ... and he abused them. D-Rob was a vastly superior athlete than Duncan at his peak too. Hakeem made them look foolish.

[juju151111]

And MJ couldn't even beat Bird in ONE playoff game, much less a series. What a HUGE loser.

Hakeem? He was losing to the likes of Eaton, AC Green, Mychael Thompson, and an endless list of no-names in his post-seasons. Using your theory, the man was LOSER 16 times in his career.

KAJ. A prime KAJ could only win ONE ring...in a season in which his team beat a 41-41 team in the first round, a 48-34 team, without two of its best players (and in a series in which Chamberlain outplayed him)...and then a 42-40 team in the Finals. The rest of the decade his heavily favored teams were going down in flames, year-after-year, to teams with records of 47-35, 47-35, 49-33 (and being SWEPT) etc. Had it not been for MAGIC, he likely would have retired somewhere near the bottom of any GOAT list.

Bird? Lost SEVEN times with HCA (and stacked supporting rosters). And he was simply AWFUL in several of them. And yet, he whipped MJ easily.

Shaq? SWEPT SIX times in his post-season career, and lost to the likes of Greg Ostertag. Hell, he was nearly swept two more times.

Duncan? Using your standards...a LOSER in 13 seasons. BTW, MJ was a loser in NINE of his seasons (and didn't win anything without the best supporting rosters in the league...just look at the 93-94 Bulls for cryingoutloud.)

At least Wilt was "losing" to a GREAT teams...unlike the above clowns.
All those players you listed have more rings then Wilt :lol

[houston]

This is a lot of VS in one Post. Hakeem in the 80s didn't lack power in anything. He was dunking on everything, he was known for that in college. Duncan had a better organization,Coach, and overall better situation. Stop the BS. Betterr understanding on how to win from day 1? Are you retarded?. Hakeem led his team to the finals in his 2nd season. Pop is a great Coach and it shows how the Spurs were still having great seasons even when Duncan has down years in his old age. Go watch early Hakeem, Wayyyyyy better then Dwight


Man Tim Duncan made Pop and the Spurs. Pop was a nobody coach until Duncan came on that team. Hakeem lost an all-nba spot to Brad Daugherty in his prime:roll: He missed the playoffs with an all-star Thorpe. Couldn't win championship with hall of famers playing at all-star levels. Shaq just embarrassed Dream in 99 while he was still playing at all-nba level. People bring up 86 Finals but his rookie season lost against .500 team with all-nba player and in 87 lost against under .500 team with an all-star.


Hakeem never made all-nba first team 3x in a row in his career. Hakeem peak was just as equal David Robinson. I'm saying Robinson,Dream, and Patrick all shared all-nba spots with each other. Duncan at least was on another level than Garnett and Dirk.


Whats up with all the excuses for Hakeem? Hakeem came into the NBA with all-nba 2nd/all-star Sampson. Sampson even won all-star MVP before. Had Rodney Mccray all-defensive player helping him. Had Sleepy Floyd before etc....Robinson,Ewing, had similar teams built like the Rockets but I never hear excuses for them why they didn't win more.


Hakeem in his back 2 back champ years had Thorpe and Drexler. Thorpe was a strong all-star quality PF who wrestle against Buck,Chuck,Mailman and Oak. While Dream went against scrub centers plus OT lead the team in rebounds in the Finals for the Rockets. He had Glide who was great scoring option for him in 95. They had 40-40 games against the Jazz while being down 2-1 against them. Both players were third team all-nba. Can't forget same Cassell being the 6th man on them squads.


Hakeem just top 20 thats it.

[LAZERUSS]

All those players you listed have more rings then Wilt :lol

TEAM game. Again, Chamberlain was the best player on the floor in the vast majority of his 29 post-season series (and he outplayed Russell in ALL eight of their post-season series.)

[RichieW]

Hakeem's elevation against great contemporaries in the playoffs / Finals was superior to Duncan. Hakeem took his squad to back to backs, something Duncan obviously never achieved. Hell, Duncan couldn't even lead Team USA to a silver medal.

Duncan plays stiff compared to Hakeem's extreme body fluidity, and superior footwork. Athletic Shaq, D-Rob, none of those guys were "stiffs" ... and he abused them. D-Rob was a vastly superior athlete than Duncan at his peak too. Hakeem made them look foolish.

Agree completely re: D-Rob, Hakeem dominated him in the series while the Admiral was MVP.

When people bring us Dream v Shaq though, I'm a little less agreeable. Granted Hakeem swept him, but we're talking Shaq who was only in his third year against an 11th year veteran Olajuwon.

Duncan swept Shaq in his prime in '99 as a sophmore player and beat him again in 2003. Of course Shaq beat Duncan in '01, '02 and '04, but my point is that prime v prime comparisons are much more valuable as indicators than a veteran player going against a young player.

[LAZERUSS]

Agree completely re: D-Rob, Hakeem dominated him in the series while the Admiral was MVP.

When people bring us Dream v Shaq though, I'm a little less agreeable. Granted Hakeem swept him, but we're talking Shaq who was only in his third year against an 11th year veteran Olajuwon.

Duncan swept Shaq in his prime in '99 as a sophmore player and beat him again in 2003. Of course Shaq beat Duncan in '01, '02 and '04, but my point is that prime v prime comparisons are much more valuable as indicators than a veteran player going against a young player.

Shaq easily outplayed Hakeem in the '95 Finals. If Hakeem's TEAMMATES hadn't thoroughly outplayed Shaq's, the series would have gone completely the other way. Hell, Hakeem's eFG% and TS%'s were BELOW the post-season league average, while his TEAMMATES shot well above in both. Meanwhile, Shaq was WAY above the post-season league average in both, but his teammates were way below Houston's.

Take away Shaq's and Hakeem's FTM, and the Houston players outscored the Magic by 40 points from the line in that series.

And none of the Hakeem fans will dare bring up their '99 playoff H2H, when a prime Shaq just carpet-bombed a helpless Hakeem.

[houston]

Agree completely re: D-Rob, Hakeem dominated him in the series while the Admiral was MVP.

When people bring us Dream v Shaq though, I'm a little less agreeable. Granted Hakeem swept him, but we're talking Shaq who was only in his third year against an 11th year veteran Olajuwon.

Duncan swept Shaq in his prime in '99 as a sophmore player and beat him again in 2003. Of course Shaq beat Duncan in '01, '02 and '04, but my point is that prime v prime comparisons are much more valuable as indicators than a veteran player going against a young player.



Shaq straight killed Dream in 99 while Dream had Barkley and Pippen. People never give props to Drexler in that 95 run. What team had a former first team all-nba SG who lead his team to couple Finals before. He was a sure fire Hall of Famer before he got with Hakeem.


Duncan with a declining Robinson stop Shaq and Kobe in their primes. Dream never played against a team like Shaq and Kobe. Even in 99 Kobe was all-nba player with all-star credit under his belt. Plus on those Lakers he had Glen Rice multi- allstar and all-nba quality player. Duncan defeated a defending NBA champion in the Pistons in 05. In 07 Duncan carried the Spurs to another championship. In 13 he went to the Finals again while being first team all-nba and all-defense.


Even a declining Duncan is still the Spurs leading rebounder since his rookie year:eek: Dream can't even say that Barkley clearly was better rebounder when he join the Rockets.

[sportjames23]

A dude with the username houston is seriously hating on Dream. :oldlol:

[Round Mound]

The Dream Was The 2nd Best Player in the Game In The Late 80s and Early-Mid 90s After Jordan. :confusedshrug:

[Audio One]

Man Tim Duncan made Pop and the Spurs. Pop was a nobody coach until Duncan came on that team. Hakeem lost an all-nba spot to Brad Daugherty in his prime:roll: He missed the playoffs with an all-star Thorpe. Couldn't win championship with hall of famers playing at all-star levels. Shaq just embarrassed Dream in 99 while he was still playing at all-nba level. People bring up 86 Finals but his rookie season lost against .500 team with all-nba player and in 87 lost against under .500 team with an all-star.


Hakeem never made all-nba first team 3x in a row in his career. Hakeem peak was just as equal David Robinson. I'm saying Robinson,Dream, and Patrick all shared all-nba spots with each other. Duncan at least was on another level than Garnett and Dirk.


Whats up with all the excuses for Hakeem? Hakeem came into the NBA with all-nba 2nd/all-star Sampson. Sampson even won all-star MVP before. Had Rodney Mccray all-defensive player helping him. Had Sleepy Floyd before etc....Robinson,Ewing, had similar teams built like the Rockets but I never hear excuses for them why they didn't win more.


Hakeem in his back 2 back champ years had Thorpe and Drexler. Thorpe was a strong all-star quality PF who wrestle against Buck,Chuck,Mailman and Oak. While Dream went against scrub centers plus OT lead the team in rebounds in the Finals for the Rockets. He had Glide who was great scoring option for him in 95. They had 40-40 games against the Jazz while being down 2-1 against them. Both players were third team all-nba. Can't forget same Cassell being the 6th man on them squads.


Hakeem just top 25 thats it.


The revisionist history here is just ridiculous. Hakeem has no business being lumped with the REAL GOATs. Very few at the time he PLAYED were making that claim (and please, no quotes...where were the VOTERS???)

He was a massive underachiever. And certainly the biggest "loser" on any GOAT list. The man never even played for a 60+ win team. Hell, hardly played on any 50+ win teams, either, in an 18 season career.

:applause:

[Audio One]

Charles Barkley was arguably The 2nd Best Player in the Game In The Late 80s and Early-Mid 90s After Jordan when healthy. :confusedshrug:


:applause:

[juju151111]

TEAM game. Again, Chamberlain was the best player on the floor in the vast majority of his 29 post-season series (and he outplayed Russell in ALL eight of their post-season series.)
Exactly it's a team game. I just rest my case. Hakeem played crazy in all his playoff 90% of his playoff series.:lol dumb**** talking about 1st round exits.

[SamuraiSWISH]

A dude with the username houston is seriously hating on Dream. :oldlol:
Kind of like Big#50 being a Duncan stan, and David Robinson hater.

[LAZERUSS]

Exactly it's a team game. I just rest my case. Hakeem played crazy in all his playoff 90% of his playoff series.:lol dumb**** talking about 1st round exits.

I won't bother posting Chamberlain's numbers had he had the "good fortune" to get blown out in the first round of the playoffs as often as Hakeem did. Unfortunately for Chamberlain, he almost always ran into the Russell and the Celtic Dynasty in his second rounds, which dropped his numbers somewhat (although comparing seasonal and post-season H2H's, he actually RAISED his game against Russell on at least a couple of occasions.)

Wilt had first round's of 38.7 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, and 38.6 ppg, but ran into Boston in three of those years. You could carry that deep into his career, too, if you want to include FG%'s. Still, he just abused Russell in the majority of their post-season H2H's, and was never outplayed by him in any of their eight matchups.

[Audio One]

All those players you listed have more rings then Wilt :lol

Manu Ginobili has more rings than Wilt :confusedshrug:

Derek Fisher has more rings than Wilt :confusedshrug:

Robert Parrish has more rings than Wilt :confusedshrug:

James Worthy has more rings than Wilt :confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

Manu Ginobili has more rings than Wilt :confusedshrug:

Derek Fisher has more rings than Wilt :confusedshrug:

Robert Parrish has more rings than Wilt :confusedshrug:

James Worthy has more rings than Wilt :confusedshrug:
I am trolling hik because he talking nonesense. Acting like Hakeem was some Scrub

[juju151111]

I won't bother posting Chamberlain's numbers had he had the "good fortune" to get blown out in the first round of the playoffs as often as Hakeem did. Unfortunately for Chamberlain, he almost always ran into the Russell and the Celtic Dynasty in his second rounds, which dropped his numbers somewhat (although comparing seasonal and post-season H2H's, he actually RAISED his game against Russell on at least a couple of occasions.)

Wilt had first round's of 38.7 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, and 38.6 ppg, but ran into Boston in three of those years. You could carry that deep into his career, too, if you want to include FG%'s. Still, he just abused Russell in the majority of their post-season H2H's, and was never outplayed by him in any of their eight matchups.
Who cares what his first round stats is in that inflated era. My point is Hakeem is a top tier Big men noting you say will change that. Hakeem would of done the exact same shit Wilt did in the 60s to Russell.

[Big#50]

Kind of like Big#50 being a Duncan stan, and David Robinson hater.
Robinson is my favorite player ever. But he needed a mean streak. He shrunk as soon as the spotlight was on him. Teams usually roughed him up in the playoffs with dirty plays and players. Got him out of the series right away. As a player he was amazing though. Been my favorite player since he played at Navy. Not a hater.

[Big#50]

The Dream Was The 2nd Best Player in the Game In The Late 80s and Early-Mid 90s After Jordan. :confusedshrug:
Bullshit. DROB was the best player after Jordan from 90 to 92.

[juju151111]

Bullshit. DROB was the best player after Jordan from 90 to 92.
Your a clown.

[Big#50]

Your a clown.
Robinson's second year and third he was amazing. Look at the MVP voting. I may have the years mixed up IDK. He was third in voting both seasons. Add a DPOY in there as well.

[Audio One]

Bullshit. DROB was the best player after Jordan from 90 to 92.

Sir Charles >> The Admiral

[LAZERUSS]

Robinson's entire career was marred by that one single six game series against Hakeem in the '95 WCF's.

If you look at the rest of their 42 career H2H games, it was basically a draw in virtually every aspect of the game (Hakeem slightly outscored DRob, while Robinson outshot Hakeem by a solid margin.) Except that Robinson's teams went 30-12 against Hakeem's.

One series...

[Big#50]

Sir Charles >> The Admiral
Early 90's Barkley was amazing on offense. That's it.

[IGOTGAME]

Robinson's entire career was marred by that one single six game series against Hakeem in the '95 WCF's.

If you look at the rest of their 42 career H2H games, it was basically a draw in virtually every aspect of the game (Hakeem slightly outscored DRob, while Robinson outshot Hakeem by a solid margin.) Except that Robinson's teams went 30-12 against Hakeem's.

One series...

It's just silly. Now a bunch of guys who haven't seen more than 10 Games of Hakeem feel like they are authorities on him and the other players of the time.

[juju151111]

Robinson's second year and third he was amazing. Look at the MVP voting. I may have the years mixed up IDK. He was third in voting both seasons. Add a DPOY in there as well.
Your a clown

[Big#50]

Your a clown
Your
Your






































YOUR

[juju151111]

Robinson's entire career was marred by that one single six game series against Hakeem in the '95 WCF's.

If you look at the rest of their 42 career H2H games, it was basically a draw in virtually every aspect of the game (Hakeem slightly outscored DRob, while Robinson outshot Hakeem by a solid margin.) Except that Robinson's teams went 30-12 against Hakeem's.

One series...
Robinson in his peak season and got raped by old Dream. Playoffs Dream is a different animal and way more focused. Playoffs in general is harder and better scouting of each team. That 30-12 record didn't help much it seemed when Hakeem took his lunch money.

[juju151111]

Your
Your






































YOUR
Your a clown. Can't take you serious after your comment about 80s/90s big men.

[Round Mound]

Early 90's Barkley was amazing on offense. That's it.

Charles Barkley Could Rebound, Create Offense For Others and Pass. D-Rob Needed Rodman For Rebounding :confusedshrug:

Charles Barkley Owned David Robinson in 1993. D-Rob Needed To Guard Barkley Away From the Post and Chuck Sinked That 20 Footer In His Face To Seal Game 6.

[Round Mound]

Bullshit. DROB was the best player after Jordan from 90 to 92.

:no:

[juju151111]

Charles Barkley Could Rebound, Create Offense For Others and Pass. D-Rob Needed Rodman For Rebounding :confusedshrug:

Charles Barkley Owned David Robinson in 1993. D-Rob Needed To Guard Barkley Away From the Post and Chuck Sinked That 20 Footer In His Face To Seal Game 6.
Why are you responding him. He said big men from the 80s and 90s are scrubs. He trolling or a idiot.

[Big#50]

Charles Barkley Could Rebound, Create Offense For Others and Pass. D-Rob Needed Rodman For Rebounding :confusedshrug:

Charles Barkley Owned David Robinson in 1993. D-Rob Needed To Guard Barkley Away From the Post and Chuck Sinked That 20 Footer In His Face To Seal Game 6.
I said he was amazing on offense.That was a beautiful shot. Barkley is one of favorites ever. Really wanted him to win that ring in 93. I hated Jordan and The Bulls. If only he was a better defender. They probably would have beat the Bulls if he would make an impact on defense.

[Big#50]

Why are you responding him. He said big men from the 80s and 90s are scrubs. He trolling or a idiot.
LOL said most were stiffs. Never called them scrubs.

[juju151111]

LOL said most were stiffs. Never called them scrubs.
Who are these stiffs. David Robinson,Rik smiths,McHale,Mosses Malone,Barkley,mutumbo,Kareem,Alanzo,EwingShaq,etc ...... What stiffs ate you talking about.

[hitmanyr2k]

Shaq straight killed Dream in 99 while Dream had Barkley and Pippen. People never give props to Drexler in that 95 run. What team had a former first team all-nba SG who lead his team to couple Finals before. He was a sure fire Hall of Famer before he got with Hakeem.


You speak of these guys like they were in their prime. '99 was a shortened lockout season where guys came into the season out of shape and the condensed season certainly favored younger players. Hakeem was way past his prime at 36 years old. Ditto for Barkley at 35 years old. Pippen was 33-34 coming off back surgery in the offseason which stole his athleticism and he was declining with age/mileage/surgeries anyway. Prime Shaq should have been killing Hakeem by then.

[Big#50]

Who are these stiffs. David Robinson,Rik smiths,McHale,Mosses Malone,Barkley,mutumbo,Kareem,Alanzo,EwingShaq,etc ...... What stiffs ate you talking about.
I say most and you list the greats. LOL @ Dikembe and Smits not being slow as ****.

[juju151111]

I say most and you list the greats. LOL @ Dikembe and Smits not being slow as ****.
Deke was not a stiff. He was a all-time great defender. Just because you don't jump out of the gym mean your a stiff. Deke moved just fine. Maybe smits.

[Big#50]

Deke was not a stiff. He was a all-time great defender. Just because you don't jump out of the gym mean your a stiff. Deke moved just fine. Maybe smits.
So you were talking out of your ass with Smits? GOTCHA
Deke was not a mobile center. Great rim protector though.

[houston]

You speak of these guys like they were in their prime. '99 was a shortened lockout season where guys came into the season out of shape and the condensed season certainly favored younger players. Hakeem was way past his prime at 36 years old. Ditto for Barkley at 35 years old. Pippen was 33-34 coming off back surgery in the offseason which stole his athleticism and he was declining with age/mileage/surgeries anyway. Prime Shaq should have been killing Hakeem by then.


Man them cats was still starters on that squad. Dream was 19,10,2 with 51% plus Barkley was 16,12,5 on 48%. If it was all-star game that season they would made it. Pippen still gave the team 15,6,7 on 43% while still making all-defense first team. Hakeem was all-nba third team.


But see that the thing people bring up 86 West Finals Hakeem suppose outplayed Kareem. But KAJ was past his prime but people give Dream his props for outplaying him. My thing is if you still a starter you perform at the best of your abilities past prime or not.

[Stringer Bell]

Two 55 point games in the playoffs in '93, the year he left for baseball, not one (possibly one) deep post Hakeem move.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibuSDuKAIFw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A

Jordan had plenty of post-skills in his first 3 peat. He could fade away, go to the middle and fade away, or go baseline. Naturally, given their size and positions, MJ didn't go as deep in the post as Hakeem.

He refined both his post game and fadeaway in his 2nd 3-peat, but those skills were there before. He just didn't rely on them as often. He got older, so naturally he had to tweak his game a bit.

This is back in 1990. You can already see his post-up, fadeaway shot which became his trademark later on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUFMrdGQ_k8

[Audio One]

Man them cats was still starters on that squad. Dream was 19,10,2 with 51% plus Barkley was 16,12,5 on 48%. If it was all-star game that season they would made it. Pippen still gave the team 15,6,7 on 43% while still making all-defense first team. Hakeem was all-nba third team.


But see that the thing people bring up 86 West Finals Hakeem suppose outplayed Kareem. But KAJ was past his prime but people give Dream his props for outplaying him. My thing is if you still a starter you perform at the best of your abilities past prime or not.

THANK YOU! If they had one a ring that season, people would be using it to prop 'em up, that double-standard :banghead:

[juju151111]

So you were talking out of your ass with Smits? GOTCHA
Deke was not a mobile center. Great rim protector though.
Your talking out your ass this whole thread and I said maybe smits.

[juju151111]

Man them cats was still starters on that squad. Dream was 19,10,2 with 51% plus Barkley was 16,12,5 on 48%. If it was all-star game that season they would made it. Pippen still gave the team 15,6,7 on 43% while still making all-defense first team. Hakeem was all-nba third team.


But see that the thing people bring up 86 West Finals Hakeem suppose outplayed Kareem. But KAJ was past his prime but people give Dream his props for outplaying him. My thing is if you still a starter you perform at the best of your abilities past prime or not.
I agree, but some people don't age gracefully like others. Some all-time greats Age affects them differently. The thing is we seen Shaq vs Hakeem in 95. That's why nobody even mentions 99.

[houston]

I agree, but some people don't age gracefully like others. Some all-time greats Age affects them differently. The thing is we seen Shaq vs Hakeem in 95. That's why nobody even mentions 99.



Of course we seen Shaq vs Dream before. they played to a standstill. Hakeem average like 26 shots a game that series. Dream team was just better.


:roll: @ some all-time greats age different. Every player age the same some players just take care their bodies better than others. Utah and Bulls in 98 was past their primes. A player can still put up numbers past thier prime these cats are professional b-ball players. You can be effective player past your prime.

[juju151111]

Of course we seen Shaq vs Dream before. they played to a standstill. Hakeem average like 26 shots a game that series. Dream team was just better.


:roll: @ some all-time greats age different. Every player age the same some players just take care their bodies better than others. Utah and Bulls in 98 was past their primes. A player can still put up numbers past thier prime these cats are professional b-ball players. You can be effective player past your prime.
I never said you can't put up impressive stats at a old age. I never said anything about who played better in 95.

[sportjames23]

Jordan had plenty of post-skills in his first 3 peat. He could fade away, go to the middle and fade away, or go baseline. Naturally, given their size and positions, MJ didn't go as deep in the post as Hakeem.

He refined both his post game and fadeaway in his 2nd 3-peat, but those skills were there before. He just didn't rely on them as often. He got older, so naturally he had to tweak his game a bit.

This is back in 1990. You can already see his post-up, fadeaway shot which became his trademark later on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUFMrdGQ_k8


:cheers:

[hitmanyr2k]

Man them cats was still starters on that squad. Dream was 19,10,2 with 51% plus Barkley was 16,12,5 on 48%. If it was all-star game that season they would made it. Pippen still gave the team 15,6,7 on 43% while still making all-defense first team. Hakeem was all-nba third team.

But see that the thing people bring up 86 West Finals Hakeem suppose outplayed Kareem. But KAJ was past his prime but people give Dream his props for outplaying him. My thing is if you still a starter you perform at the best of your abilities past prime or not.

I don't care what their stats were. You're saying Hakeem was playing with Barkley and Pippen as if they were the same players from the early/mid 90's when they clearly weren't. They were still way past their primes. Reverse the situation and have 28 year old Prime Hakeem play against 36 year old Shaq and he's going to kick Shaq's ass all over the place just like he should.

[Audio One]

I don't care what their stats were. You're saying Hakeem was playing with Barkley and Pippen as if they were the same players from the early/mid 90's when they clearly weren't. They were still way past their primes. Reverse the situation and have 28 year old Prime Hakeem play against 36 year old Shaq and he's going to kick Shaq's ass all over the place just like he should.


http://www.joesportsfan.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/the-weekly-hypothetical-title.jpg

[houston]

I don't care what their stats were. You're saying Hakeem was playing with Barkley and Pippen as if they were the same players from the early/mid 90's when they clearly weren't. They were still way past their primes. Reverse the situation and have 28 year old Prime Hakeem play against 36 year old Shaq and he's going to kick Shaq's ass all over the place just like he should.


But yet Hakeem get props for outplaying KAJ when he was old but he was first team all-nba over Hakeem lol.


Of course they wasn't the same player that why they teamed together:facepalm So all three of them should been averaging 20+ ppg with other:rolleyes:

[rmt]

See I value these things...but to a reasonable extent. Small Example:

Bill Russell was only named to All-NBA first team 3 times in his career, as opposed to Dwight Howard, who has been named 5 times. Competition is a HUGE part in what I look at first when I'm looking at accolades. I'm sure that you can guess who was on the All-NBA first team for most of Russell's career.

I'm not knocking your opinion as to what you value but just giving you my perspective.

Please, I cringe when you mention Dwight's name in the same breath as Russell. Russell was the anti-thesis of DH - probably the greatest TEAM player ever while Dwight is all about himself.

Russell is considered great because he won so much. Most people if they were judging by skill - especially both sides of the court - would choose Hakeem (or Duncan) because the difference in their offense (over Russell) > than the difference in their defense (Russell over Hakeem/Duncan). However, because Russell won so much, he is almost universally considered much higher on a GOAT list than either Hakeem or Duncan.

If one is going to use that standard (and almost everyone does) for Russell, then to me, Duncan should be higher on a GOAT list than Hakeem because TD's (entire and it's not done yet) career > Hakeem's career.

Russell's (offensive) stats are pretty pedestrian for a top tier GOAT but everyone ignores/disregards them because he won. Winning "covers a multitude of sins" - as it should - it is after all the goal of the game. Same with Lebron (in reverse) - no matter the skill/talent/stats/etc. if he doesn't win championships, he won't break the top 10 GOAT. If the same principles applied to Russell (or the reverse to Lebron) regarding "winning" were applied to Duncan (who won 4 rings as the man), then all this discussion about skill/stats/etc. is moot.

[Y2ktors]

Please, I cringe when you mention Dwight's name in the same breath as Russell. Russell was the anti-thesis of DH - probably the greatest TEAM player ever while Dwight is all about himself.

Russell is considered great because he won so much. Most people if they were judging by skill - especially both sides of the court - would choose Hakeem (or Duncan) because the difference in their offense (over Russell) > than the difference in their defense (Russell over Hakeem/Duncan). However, because Russell won so much, he is almost universally considered much higher on a GOAT list than either Hakeem or Duncan.

If one is going to use that standard (and almost everyone does) for Russell, then to me, Duncan should be higher on a GOAT list than Hakeem because TD's (entire and it's not done yet) career > Hakeem's career.

Russell's (offensive) stats are pretty pedestrian for a top tier GOAT but everyone ignores/disregards them because he won. Winning "covers a multitude of sins" - as it should - it is after all the goal of the game. Same with Lebron (in reverse) - no matter the skill/talent/stats/etc. if he doesn't win championships, he won't break the top 10 GOAT. If the same principles applied to Russell (or the reverse to Lebron) regarding "winning" were applied to Duncan (who won 4 rings as the man), then all this discussion about skill/stats/etc. is moot.

The bulk of this is part of a make point that I'm trying to make. It's too complex of a subject to just look at stats and accolades and say that player A had a better career than player B, therefore placing that player higher in the list of the GOAT.

At some point, the competition or lack thereof has to be taken into account. Yes, Bill played with excellent teammates But he was the Heart and soul of that dynasty. See he's not the greatest big man to play in the NBA mainly based on rings, accolades and stats but because he did what he did when his toughest opponent was the most dominant offensive force to ever play the game and it was on his shoulders to be up for the task of slowing Wilt down. His teams simply got the better of wilt's teams which I respect far more than Bill's team defeating a team with a scrub center and an elite guard.

That's just my take.

[rmt]

The bulk of this is part of a make point that I'm trying to make. It's too complex of a subject to just look at stats and accolades and say that player A had a better career than player B, therefore placing that player higher in the list of the GOAT.

At some point, the competition or lack thereof has to be taken into account. Yes, Bill played with excellent teammates But he was the Heart and soul of that dynasty. See he's not the greatest big man to play in the NBA mainly based on rings, accolades and stats but because he did what he did when his toughest opponent was the most dominant offensive force to ever play the game and it was on his shoulders to be up for the task of slowing Wilt down. His teams simply got the better of wilt's teams which I respect far more than Bill's team defeating a team with a scrub center and an elite guard.

That's just my take.

Did you miss the part where I say career includes "everything"


Everything - the individual and team accolades - MVPs, FMVPs, all-NBAs, all-Defensive, rings, winning percentage, consistency, leadership. Duncan's career > Hakeem's career.

And Duncan played against some of the best PFs to ever play - at the beginning - Malone, and then KG, Dirk. It's not like he controls or chooses who he plays against. Should his competition (or anyone's perceived - lack of) be held against him - he's in the league when he's in the league. To me, Duncan - very much like Russell can't be measured purely by stats - his intangibles (like Russell's) are part of what makes him great - they both did whatever it takes to WIN without much concern for their "stats."

I'm just using Russell (because you used him) and Lebron to make my point. It was never my intention to give the impression that honors alone should be used (see Kobe's all-defensive honors) but a lot of posters are not consistent in how they rate/rank players. They'll use skill/peak for some players and then accomplishments for others.

[GoranDragon]

Dream and it's not close.

[Y2ktors]

Did you miss the part where I say career includes "everything"



And Duncan played against some of the best PFs to ever play - at the beginning - Malone, and then KG, Dirk. It's not like he controls or chooses who he plays against. Should his competition (or anyone's perceived - lack of) be held against him - he's in the league when he's in the league. To me, Duncan - very much like Russell can't be measured
purely by stats - his intangibles (like Russell's) are part of what makes him great - they both did whatever it takes to WIN without much concern for their "stats."

I'm just using Russell (because you used him) and Lebron to make my point. It was never my intention to give the impression that honors alone should be used (see Kobe's all-defensive honors) but a lot of posters are not consistent in how they rate/rank players. They'll use skill/peak for some players and then accomplishments for others.

The last two statements I totally agree with. See I also take everything into account, but that includes the era and level of competition. But some ppl are all over the place and some are just closed minded.

[rmt]

The last two statements I totally agree with. See I also take everything into account, but that includes the era and level of competition. But some ppl are all over the place and some are just closed minded.

Well, how about Lebron? Except for Kd, it's not exactly the golden age of SFs. Heat's competition comprises of young teams like okc/ind and an old (core) SAS. There's not even a team like LAL with Shaq and Kobe (established team with stars in their prime). Will u take era and competition into consideration when u rank Lebron? It' hardly his fault there's not more established teams around.

[millwad]

Man them cats was still starters on that squad. Dream was 19,10,2 with 51% plus Barkley was 16,12,5 on 48%. If it was all-star game that season they would made it. Pippen still gave the team 15,6,7 on 43% while still making all-defense first team. Hakeem was all-nba third team.


But see that the thing people bring up 86 West Finals Hakeem suppose outplayed Kareem. But KAJ was past his prime but people give Dream his props for outplaying him. My thing is if you still a starter you perform at the best of your abilities past prime or not.

Probably the worst troll attempt in ISH-history, Jlauber.

First of all, you don't fool anyone, coming up with a new account using all your old arguments while you call yourself, "Houston", haha. Really, are you really this retarded?

And as far as the nonsense above, KAJ's longevity was amazing and he was 5th on the MVP top 10 list in '86. And we know that you're butthurt over the fact that Kareem averaged 40 points per game on 50% shooting against Wilt in '72.

[Bush4Ever]

To me, this is the textbook case of peak vs. career performance.

Hakeem had a slightly higher peak, while Duncan has been more steady and prolific on the team front. With respect to that later point, I do NOT think it is nearly a slam-dunk that Hakeem would replicate that in a similar situation, especially a younger, more wild and less mature Hakeem.

On a team/psychological front, Hakeem had to mature into what Duncan was almost from day one. That counts.

Skill for skill in terms of "prime" performance, I don't think there are really huge differences between them on any major aspect of the big man game.

At the end of the day, I would rather have Duncan's career than Hakeem's.

[Pointguard]

Jordan had plenty of post-skills in his first 3 peat. He could fade away, go to the middle and fade away, or go baseline. Naturally, given their size and positions, MJ didn't go as deep in the post as Hakeem.

He refined both his post game and fadeaway in his 2nd 3-peat, but those skills were there before. He just didn't rely on them as often. He got older, so naturally he had to tweak his game a bit.

This is back in 1990. You can already see his post-up, fadeaway shot which became his trademark later on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUFMrdGQ_k8
He unquestionably had post skills but when he came back you have to be crazy to say he was the same. He stayed down there waaaaay more and that was his comfort zone. And Hakeem is one of the few he has ever complimented.

[Y2ktors]

Well, how about Lebron? Except for Kd, it's not exactly the golden age of SFs. Heat's competition comprises of young teams like okc/ind and an old (core) SAS. There's not even a team like LAL with Shaq and Kobe (established team with stars in their prime). Will u take era and competition into consideration when u rank Lebron? It' hardly his fault there's not more established teams around.
I will take that into consideration with everyone. But it's not just competition at the player's respective position but the level overall.

Kareem's best statistical years are when the ABA was around. I take that into serious consideration.

[K Xerxes]

People invoke career resumes, but it's practically worthless in a discussion like this. We are directly comparing two players here. 'Career' in this context depends so much on who you have around you (basketball is a team game) and who you play against. This is rarely controlled by the player themselves.

Compare them as actual individual players. I realise this is hard to do and subjective in itself (stats don't go a long way to encapsulate this), but having watched both players play in this primes, I find it hard to believe that anyone can make a case for Duncan over Olajuwon. Olajuwon is basically a slightly superior Duncan both offensively and defensively. Whether this is down to athleticism or skill is frankly irrelevant.

[Y2ktors]

People invoke career resumes, but it's practically worthless in a discussion like this. We are directly comparing two players here. 'Career' in this context depends so much on who you have around you (basketball is a team game) and who you play against. This is rarely controlled by the player themselves.

Compare them as actual individual players. I realise this is hard to do and subjective in itself (stats don't go a long way to encapsulate this), but having watched both players play in this primes, I find it hard to believe that anyone can make a case for Duncan over Olajuwon. Olajuwon is basically a slightly superior Duncan both offensively and defensively. Whether this is down to athleticism or skill is frankly irrelevant.

Agreed. As wild as Dream was in the 80s, he played his ass off and produced on a high level. He wanted to win no less than Duncan, but they were in different situations, which dictated different outcomes.

[Bush4Ever]

People invoke career resumes, but it's practically worthless in a discussion like this. We are directly comparing two players here. 'Career' in this context depends so much on who you have around you (basketball is a team game) and who you play against. This is rarely controlled by the player themselves.

Compare them as actual individual players. I realise this is hard to do and subjective in itself (stats don't go a long way to encapsulate this), but having watched both players play in this primes, I find it hard to believe that anyone can make a case for Duncan over Olajuwon. Olajuwon is basically a slightly superior Duncan both offensively and defensively. Whether this is down to athleticism or skill is frankly irrelevant.

Two things:

1. Judging players as independent entities has the same category flaw as what you describe, since players are always nested within a 5 on 5 game.

2. The relationship between star players and supporting cast is reciprocal (i.e.- a feedback loop), not one way causal.

There is a reason why Duncan has won with multiple "teams" within the same franchise, with total turnover from 1999 and nearly total turnover from 2003, to 2007.

It isn't a coincidence. It is one of those things that goes into the pot for judging them as individual players.

Hakeem is a perfectly fine choice. But Duncan DOES have some points in his favor in this discussion. I also think he was a slightly superior rebounder and better passer on the sum from the post. Hakeem has some advantages as well, obviously.

[Bush4Ever]

Agreed. As wild as Dream was in the 80s, he played his ass off and produced on a high level. He wanted to win no less than Duncan, but they were in different situations, which dictated different outcomes.

It's not a matter of "wanting to win". Everyone wants to win.

It is an issue of fully appreciating the cause and effect relationships, and how your behaviors influence outcomes.

It is also interesting how Hakeem continually had personal, teammate, and franchise problems early to mid career, while Duncan never really did.

Duncan's advantages in the mental/personality arena are just as real as Hakeem being more of a game-changer on defense, or Duncan arguably being a superior rebounder, etc...these are real things that matter to the bottom line.

[juju151111]

It's not a matter of "wanting to win". Everyone wants to win.

It is an issue of fully appreciating the cause and effect relationships, and how your behaviors influence outcomes.

It is also interesting how Hakeem continually had personal, teammate, and franchise problems early to mid career, while Duncan never really did.

Duncan's advantages in the mental/personality arena are just as real as Hakeem being more of a game-changer on defense, or Duncan arguably being a superior rebounder, etc...these are real things that matter to the bottom line.
Nope, if Hakeem was in Duncan place he would of gotten his money like Duncan did and have a organization/Great Coach/Teammates from the start.

[Bush4Ever]

Nope, if Hakeem was in Duncan place he would of gotten his money like Duncan did and have a organization/Great Coach/Teammates from the start.

There is virtually nothing to indicate that a young Hakeem had the type of leadership or maturity that Duncan had.

He eventually did, and grew into the role. But he grew. He had a number of flaws and did a number of things early in his career that were absolutely not attributable to having a more modest supporting cast.

[juju151111]

There is virtually nothing to indicate that a young Hakeem had the type of leadership or maturity that Duncan had.

He eventually did, and grew into the role. But he grew. He had a number of flaws and did a number of things early in his career that were absolutely not attributable to having a more modest supporting cast.
What the actual **** are you talking about? Hakeem led his team to the finals in his 2nd season. He had it from the start. His teammates were freaking druggies/thrash and they refused to pay him his Damn money. This is the reason he wasn't playing inspired ball in the early 90s. He was butting heads with the organization about his teammates/money and he was right. Give him the samething has Duncan non of these things happen.

[Bush4Ever]

What the actual **** are you talking about? Hakeem led his team to the finals in his 2nd season. He had it from the start. His teammates were freaking druggies/thrash and they refused to pay him his Damn money. This is the reason he wasn't playing inspired ball in the early 90s. He was butting heads with the organization about his teammates/money and he was right. Give him the samething has Duncan non of these things happen.

I am not talking about being a great player from the start. I am talking about him being mature and being a great leader. There is a difference.

I don't think anyone expects him to win titles with the general core of players he had, but Hakeem very rarely made the situation easier, and sometimes made it worse.

Duncan won with many different combinations of players, different cores, with his main two core pieces being guys who were thought so little off pre-Duncan they were taken in the later part of the first round (Parker), and nearly undrafted (Manu).

Hakeem doesn't really have that type of card in his deck in this discussion.

Regarding lack of talented temmates, Duncan won a title in 2003, upending the threepeat Lakers in the process, with an extremely modest supporting cast, relative to most title winners.

So, Duncan at least has that piece of evidence in his corner with respect to the "talented teammaets" line of discussion.

Again, Hakeem is a very reasonable choice. But Duncan does have some arguments in his favor (rebounding and passing are others, if you want to evaluate their purely individual skillsets). That's the only real reason I jumped into this discussion.

[juju151111]

I am not talking about being a great player from the start. I am talking about him being mature and being a great leader. There is a difference.

I don't think anyone expects him to win titles with the general core of players he had, but Hakeem very rarely made the situation easier, and sometimes made it worse.

Duncan won with many different combinations of players, different cores, with his main two core pieces being guys who were thought so little off pre-Duncan they were taken in the later part of the first round (Parker), and nearly undrafted (Manu).

Hakeem doesn't really have that type of card in his deck in this discussion.

Regarding lack of talented temmates, Duncan won a title in 2003, upending the threepeat Lakers in the process, with an extremely modest supporting cast, relative to most title winners.

So, Duncan at least has that piece of evidence in his corner with respect to the "talented teammaets" line of discussion.

Again, Hakeem is a very reasonable choice. But Duncan does have some arguments in his favor (rebounding and passing are others, if you want to evaluate their purely individual skillsets). That's the only real reason I jumped into this discussion.
Yea Duncan is amazing too. They are both Top 10, but lets not act like Hakeem wasn't dealt a worse situation.

[rmt]

I will take that into consideration with everyone. But it's not just competition at the player's respective position but the level overall.

Kareem's best statistical years are when the ABA was around. I take that into serious consideration.

What does the level overall have to do with it? Does Kevin Love's level (or stats) have anything to do with Lebron? They meet twice a year, will never meet in a Finals. Trying to judge something so subjective as competition/eras or imagining players in other players' situation is shaky at best.

No one is control of the era/competition. Lebron could have the greatest stats, most talent, domination of the league for years on end but if he didn't leave CLE and win rings, he'd never be considered a top 10 GOAT (mostly because all the other top 10s have stats, talent and WON too).

[scm5]

I think Tim Duncan is starting to get underrated these days. I think he's at least in the conversation with Hakeem in terms of both offensive and defensive impact. He plays in a more balanced system and has always brought up his level of play during the playoffs.

People cite Hakeem vs Shaq match ups all the time, but people forget that Duncan was able to hang with Prime Shaq and that Shaq wasn't the Lakers' best match up against the Spurs when they met.

That being said, I think Hakeem was the better player, but Duncan is the better leader and is deserved to be ranked higher than Hakeem.

[rmt]

I'm a big tennis fan, and the same argument goes on on tennis boards.

Is Federer the GOAT? When he was getting close to Sampras' record Grand Slam, people did the competition/era argument - that Sampras played in an era when there were more Grand Slam winners. Duh - yes - Fed's peak (2005-07) looked weak - BECAUSE Fed was winning EVERYTHING - hardly anybody else won except Nadal on clay. Doesn't take away from his 17 Grand Slams or 302 weeks at #1. He can't control his era or competition - he just kept winning and winning. Now that Nadal/Djovokic/Murray have won Grand Slams, it's considered a "strong era." Yet Federer is still getting to GS semi finals at the very old age of 32 while they're in their mid 20s.

I believe that comparisons can only be made between players of the same generation, not inter-generations (80s vs 00s). Too much has changed - in basketball rules, in tennis, strings, racquets, surfaces.

This is why I laugh when some say the players/athletes today (say, vs Jesse Owens) are much better. IMO, to even compare them across eras is suspect. They did not have the advantage of improved medical knowledge, equipment, hyperbaric chambers, nutrition, diet, training, private jets, (in tennis' case - personal trainers and chefs, traveling coach, masseuse, gluten-free diets, etc).

[tragicbronson]

And a very important and overlooked factor is the media, it may sound irrelevant but it impacts and creates the image of someone. I may got flamed for this, but the biggest example is Michael Jordan, maybe he is the best player ever but media created the god and someone noone can be compared to.

I think that's the case with Duncan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZpRYBGBT_M

As Simmons says, there was nothing about him that media could find controversial and interesting including his game and thus he was oftenly forgotten. Dunno it it helps the debate but i just felt like i needed to point that out.

[millwad]

It's not a matter of "wanting to win". Everyone wants to win.

It is an issue of fully appreciating the cause and effect relationships, and how your behaviors influence outcomes.

It is also interesting how Hakeem continually had personal, teammate, and franchise problems early to mid career, while Duncan never really did.

Duncan's advantages in the mental/personality arena are just as real as Hakeem being more of a game-changer on defense, or Duncan arguably being a superior rebounder, etc...these are real things that matter to the bottom line.

Please, talk about taking stuff out of context.

Dream was a hot head during the early stages of his career but this is just stupid. Olajuwon led his freaking team to the finals where they finally lost to one of the greatest teams of all-time in '86, the Celtics, and in the WCF a 2nd year pro Olajuwon just crushed Kareem and the Lakers.

Acting like his behaviour came in the way is pure stupidity and definitely showcasing your lack of knowing.

Robert Reid, the PG of the '86 Rockets got into a fight with Olajuwon during practice over some rumours and the same Robert Reid started to cry when Olajuwon won in '94.

Since you claim that Olajuwon had personal and teammate problems, mention some of the personal problems that he had and his problems with his teammates. You won't even find one player who played with Olajuwon who'd say something bad about him.

[millwad]

Of course we seen Shaq vs Dream before. they played to a standstill. Hakeem average like 26 shots a game that series. Dream team was just better.


:roll: @ some all-time greats age different. Every player age the same some players just take care their bodies better than others. Utah and Bulls in 98 was past their primes. A player can still put up numbers past thier prime these cats are professional b-ball players. You can be effective player past your prime.

Haha, Jlauber, honestly, do you actually believe that you're fooling someone?

The sad thing is that you actually registrated a new account under the name "Houston" as if you would be able to fool someone. And not only that, you use the exact same argument which you used with your "Jlauber" and "Lazeruss" account.

The fact that you try to act like a young gun a la writing "man" and bogus stuff in the middle of the sentence is only showcasing the fact that you're a crazed and retarded person.

I think you have you're suffering from Aspergers or something.

[Y2ktors]

Haha, Jlauber, honestly, do you actually believe that you're fooling someone?

The sad thing is that you actually registrated a new account under the name "Houston" as if you would be able to fool someone. And not only that, you use the exact same argument which you used with your "Jlauber" and "Lazeruss" account.

The fact that you try to act like a young gun a la writing "man" and bogus stuff in the middle of the sentence is only showcasing the fact that you're a crazed and retarded person.

I think you have you're suffering from Aspergers or something.
:lol

[Y2ktors]

I think Tim Duncan is starting to get underrated these days. I think he's at least in the conversation with Hakeem in terms of both offensive and defensive impact. He plays in a more balanced system and has always brought up his level of play during the playoffs.

People cite Hakeem vs Shaq match ups all the time, but people forget that Duncan was able to hang with Prime Shaq and that Shaq wasn't the Lakers' best match up against the Spurs when they met.

That being said, I think Hakeem was the better player, but Duncan is the better leader and is deserved to be ranked higher than Hakeem.

1. He's definitely in the conversation with Hakeem. It's not a dead give away in either player's favor.

2. Duncan rarely guarded Shaq. Other bigs guarded him, while Shaq and Dream actually went toe to toe.

3. I don't care who's the better leader. Fish was a better leader than both Shaq and Kobe but I certainly do not hold that against them. Wilt wasn't the greatest of leaders, neither was Kareem.

[Prometheus]

some players are just much luckier than others to be drafted by quality organizations. Hakeem > Duncan by such a wide margin that this thread is just retarded

[Big#50]

Duncan was a better player. Clear as day.

[rmt]

3. I don't care who's the better leader. Fish was a better leader than both Shaq and Kobe but I certainly do not hold that against them. Wilt wasn't the greatest of leaders, neither was Kareem.

It doesn't matter to you that one player may get the best out of his team mates or that another might alienate them? Don't the intangibles matter?

To me, the whole person matters - the whole package - physical, mental, emotional, psychological, everything. Sometimes people look only at what's visible - the skills, athleticism, etc. but IMO what goes on inside is important too. For example, take Duncan and DRob. Almost everyone would say that DRob was a physical specimen - tall, strong, agile, athletic - much more so than TD who's very ordinary in the physical department. DRob's had the MVP, DPOY, stats, scoring title - stuff TD doesn't even have. But almost no one questions that TD is higher on a GOAT list. His competitive drive, single-mindedness, intangibles are what separates them.

[SCdac]

I think Tim Duncan is starting to get underrated these days.

I'd venture to say it's because alot of people on ISH were like 7-10 years old when Duncan was winning back-to-back MVP's and now those same people are watching him at the very tail end of his career thinking they've wrapped their head around what kind of player he was all along ("a slow, stiff, center"). Yet in his physical prime he was a beast, an agile PF, generally more athletic than given credit for, and was the clear foundation for the Spurs and best player in the game in many years. He could have had more 25 ppg seasons on worse teams, I'm sure.

[Y2ktors]

It doesn't matter to you that one player may get the best out of his team mates or that another might alienate them? Don't the intangibles matter?

To me, the whole person matters - the whole package - physical, mental, emotional, psychological, everything. Sometimes people look only at what's visible - the skills, athleticism, etc. but IMO what goes on inside is important too. For example, take Duncan and DRob. Almost everyone would say that DRob was a physical specimen - tall, strong, agile, athletic - much more so than TD who's very ordinary in the physical department. DRob's had the MVP, DPOY, stats, scoring title - stuff TD doesn't even have. But almost no one questions that TD is higher on a GOAT list. His competitive drive, single-mindedness, intangibles are what separates them.

You don't have to be a great leader in order for this to occur though. It's a good trait to have but it isn't something that I give too much attention to.

D-Rob just wasn't tough enough in crunch time. Timmy was and is still. I do look at things like that because that's part of what separates the greats from the legends.

[Y2ktors]

I'd venture to say it's because alot of people on ISH were like 7-10 years old when Duncan was winning back-to-back MVP's and now those same people are watching him at the very tail end of his career thinking they've wrapped their head around what kind of player he was all along ("a slow, stiff, center"). Yet in his physical prime he was a beast, an agile PF, generally more athletic than given credit for, and was the clear foundation for the Spurs and best player in the game in many years. He could have had more 25 ppg seasons on worse teams, I'm sure.

He's definitely a top 10 GOAT player. That's not underrating him at all.

[millwad]

Duncan was a better player. Clear as day.

Yeah, exactly.
Coming from a Spurs fan with your nickname, Olajuwon slaughtered the same guy you idolize which is why you're so butthurt.

[Y2ktors]

Yeah, exactly.
Coming from a Spurs fan with your nickname, Olajuwon slaughtered the same guy you idolize which is why you're so butthurt.


:lol

[westsideozzie]

I am the biggest Tim Duncan fan you will find, but he's no Akeem da Dream. Hakeem is basically a more athletic Duncan.

[Y2ktors]

I am the biggest Tim Duncan fan you will find, but he's no Akeem da Dream. Hakeem is basically a more athletic Duncan.

They are both top 10 GOAT. I do feel that ppl do not fully give Dream his props outside of the peak years of 1992-96.

[juju151111]

Manipulation of the refs Lmfao