More skilled, Shaq or Wilt?

[CavaliersFTW]

Which player had the wider array of moves from what you've seen? Go.

[iTare]

Wilt

[houston]

Shaq

[NumberSix]

Wilt

[navy]

Wilt highlights please.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt highlights please.

These aren't finished yet but: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eKgVWoCi9g

[CavaliersFTW]

Interested what Phila has to say actually, hopefully he sees the thread

[TerranOP]

Shaq.

[iTare]

I also feel that Wilt was more fluid with his postmoves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHAJjP6e6pg

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Wily by far
Shaq was all power and natural talent but he was an alpha while Wilt was a beta pussboi who didnt want to destroy ppl with his God given physical talents. He wanted to impress with "skills" and pretty stats which is why he ended with 1 ring as the man as it one of the alltime playoff chokers while Shaq is the opposite

[CarlosBoozer]

Gotta go with Shaq, great passing and fit in perfectly with Phil's system.

[Lebron23]

Give me shaq

he can do a crossover, 360 dunk, shaq hook, and black tornado try guarding that shit.

[fpliii]

I also feel that Wilt was more fluid with his postmoves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHAJjP6e6pg
Damn, I'd never seen that before. Crazy.

[CavaliersFTW]

anybody know of any thorough offensive compilations of Shaq?

[Lebron23]

Gotta go with Shaq, great passing and fit in perfectly with Phil's system.


Shaq crossover

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Eu2NrAqQr4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46_ROMrGi-c

360 dunk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzJEe66_ACw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GTn5Dm9U1o

Shaq Hook

[navy]

Im going to say Wilt. Although Shaq in Wilt's era would have been dominate.

[iTare]

You can always try throwing a ball at Shaq, that might be a way to stop him/slow him down. :confusedshrug:
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/tumblr_lobx86G8LT1qcmnsoo1_400.gif

[Lebron23]

Shaq with his go to move Black Tornado

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLDXw5lC-LM

The admiral was also as athletic as Wilt. The Big Aristotle would destroy the Big Dipper in a team game, and 1 on 1 basketball.

[CavaliersFTW]

Shaq with his go to move Black Tornado

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLDXw5lC-LM

The admiral was also as athletic as Wilt.
Not if size and strength counts towards athleticism:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sJ8-6it3yKI/UjP3C8U0KYI/AAAAAAAAEqo/eUg7qg_3Ndk/s800/Wilt%2520and%2520Russell%2520Next%2520to%2520Drob. jpg

Wilt is arguably the strongest player of all time and he was immense. Admiral was not, admiral was ripped but not immense nor regarded as being incredibly strong, he was a 226lbs rookie who topped out at about 265lbs as opposed to Wilt a 258lb rookie who topped out at about 320lbs.

[Lebron23]

Wilt is better than the admiral.

Shaq with his tomahawk dunk against a pre injury Robinson in the 1996 NBA All Star Game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeJGSS3AT7c

[CavaliersFTW]

A 360 Dunk is something you do when there is no defense, I'm talking actual repeatable moves with consistency to destroy a defense not showboating, according to Connie Hawkins Wilt had an array of showboat dunks too when he played on the playgrounds. I mean applicable skill to score past a defense though.

I'm talking more along the lines of, Jump hook right handed from left side high post, turn around jumper, finger roll, spin move, up and unders etc. Crossover works too, that's one move Shaq did that Wilt never did as far as I know. But there isn't much of anything else I've seen Shaq do that Wilt didn't do and then some. (Dirk fade aways, MJ turnaround J's, Tim Duncan Bank shots, Gervin-esq finger rolls, reverse layups etc) Would appreciate if anyone knows of any decent Shaq offensive highlights that showcase some thorough variety in his moves.

[moe94]

You can always try throwing a ball at Shaq, that might be a way to stop him/slow him down. :confusedshrug:
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/tumblr_lobx86G8LT1qcmnsoo1_400.gif

:roll:

It's like a scene from a wacky sitcom.

[Lebron23]

Shaq draining a turn around jumper (All star Game)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ6Xr0KuBLE

[CavaliersFTW]

Shaq with draining a turn around jumper (All star Game)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ6Xr0KuBLE
How often did he shoot these? Never saw him take this shot as a Cav, would this be the equivilent of Wilt taking hook shots? (a lower percentage or an il-advised shot if nothing else is falling, or as seen there, an ASG move)

[moe94]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/4657345/the-office-basketball-o.gif

Footage of Wilt during warmups

[jongib369]

Wilt had more moves but I'd actually argue Shaq offensively played smarter than Wilt in a way. As unstoppable as his fade away was, it's probably not the best idea to fade from the post like he did. Wilt said himself he wanted to show he was skillful, not just a brute. Which is wonderful, it obviously worked VERY well for him. And in a one on one situation Wilt would have the edge. Both would have a hell of a time backing down and getting position on the other. But since Wilts game isn't focused mostly on brute strength, Shaqs ability to stop chamberlain from backing down won't affect his offensive game as much as it will vice versa.

Probably a horrible analogy but I think of Shaq as a Sniper and Wilt as a Shotgun. Shaqs game is more accurate but Wilt has a wider spread.....Both of which have advantages over the other.

Shaq Should have done things like this more https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhs-xK7Lvms

While Wilt should have done this more
http://youtu.be/Qak1eeHqfJ8?t=5s

[CavaliersFTW]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/4657345/the-office-basketball-o.gif

Footage of Wilt during warmups

Wilt as a school boy tho:
http://youtu.be/zukRbA3y0qo?t=8m39s
http://youtu.be/zukRbA3y0qo?t=3m6s

[navy]

If Wilt was so skilled what happened to his playoff scoring? Seriously.

[Rose'sACL]

Shaq. video evidence about wilt's play is very little. always go for the thing you are confident in.

[moe94]

That play around 3:15 in the second video is all around crazy.

[CavaliersFTW]

If Wilt was so skilled what happened to his playoff scoring? Seriously.
Role changes, and a different ratio of games played under these roles during the playoffs vs regular season of his collective career:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260704

[navy]

Role changes, and a different ratio of games played under these roles during the playoffs vs regular season of his collective career:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260704
Why did he change his role? It clearly wasnt as effective.

[RichieW]

Ignoring eras, Shaq is without doubt the better player. He had the benefit of 30 extra years of basketball evolution. Better coaching methods, more sport science knowledge etc...

If Shaq and Wilt had been born the same year, I think Wilt would be the more skilled player. Of course none of us watched Wilt, but Shaq wasn't really all that skilled. He was effective, but he is the first to admit he didn't have all that many moves. Shaq got easy points, that's what made him so unstoppable.

[CavaliersFTW]

Ignoring eras, Shaq is without doubt the better player. He had the benefit of 30 extra years of basketball evolution. Better coaching methods, more sport science knowledge etc...

If Shaq and Wilt had been born the same year, I think Wilt would be the more skilled player. Of course none of us watched Wilt, but Shaq wasn't really all that skilled. He was effective, but he is the first to admit he didn't have all that many moves. Shaq got easy points, that's what made him so unstoppable.
:roll: this is the single most ridiculous notion that get's overused and abused by fans who don't understand the game of basketball. That's a simpletons broad sweeping generalization, based on nothing but an assumption.

Do you actually know anything specific about Shaq or Wilt in regards to the question in the OP? If not, maybe try observing/listening rather than typing/speaking?

[dankok8]

If skilled means a vast array of moves than Wilt definitely wins here. He had a nice fadeaway J in his early years, those finger rolls off of a spin were insane (they look like very difficult shots...), he had decent hook shots, and he could also go up with a ton of power (like when the ball bounced up to rim level after a dunk!). Wilt's Goliath Complex was maybe his worst weakness. He could have and should have played more like Shaq but he had this idea that he had to show people he had skill and was a finesse player.

Shaq was much more limited in his moves... power dunks, spin moves resulting in dunks, and spins resulting in baby hooks off of both sides. Still his focus and footwork were bar none. O'Neal was an amazingly fluid player.

Overall I'd give Wilt the edge on his vertical leap, he had better hands, and he had slightly better coordination. Shaq had a stronger lower body (his legs were like tree trunks...), was a bit superior in his footwork, and he was definitely not afraid to use his strength.

Overall I give Wilt an edge in skills but in overall effectiveness in the post I have to go Shaq. That's partly because of Wilt's mentality though.

[CavaliersFTW]

Just watched Shaq's 61 pt game highlights and he did take 2 "jumpers" (kinda) one from each side of the key and a finger roll and I was pleasantly surprised - I'm guessing he did not use them often, actually Chick even said Shaq did not fingerroll often. I'm not sure about his 'jump shot' though. Can anyone comment on the jumper? Someone needs to make a Shaq offensive move video at some point.

[LAZERUSS]

Chamberlain played 14 seasons in the NBA, while Shaq played 19 seasons.

Chamberlain won seven scoring titles, and in two of them by margins of +10.8 and +18.8 ppg. Shaq won two scoring titles.

Shaq holds a 10-9 margin in FG% titles, but Wilt holds the two highest seasons in NBA history. Furthermore, Chamberlain won the FG% title in each of his last two seasons (setting the all-time mark of .727 in his last season.) There was a strong possibility that Wilt could have won more.

Wilt holds an 11-0 margin in rebounding titles.

Chamberlain holds a 1-0 margin in assist titles. Shaq's highest season was 3.8 apg. Wilt had seasons of 5.0 apg and 5.2 apg while leading the league in scoring and at 36.9 ppg and 33.5 ppg. He also had seasons of 7.8 apg and 8.6 apg.

Blocked shots? ThaRegul8r had Wilt with 5.42 bpg in his LAST season at age 36. There are legitimate estimates with Wilt having seasons of 8+ bpg, and perhaps as high as 10+. Shaq's best season was 3.5 bpg (and he only had two of 3.0+.)

Wilt was voted first team All-Defense in his last two seasons (and had the award existed before, he likely would have had at least two more.) Shaq's best season was second-team.


Other than the above, Shaq might have a case.

[Angel Face]

Shaq.

Wilt played against tomato cans.

[LAZERUSS]

Shaq.

Wilt played against tomato cans.

Speaking of "tomato cans"...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=curryed01&p2=onealsh01

Eddy Curry :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[oarabbus]

Im going to say Wilt. Although Shaq in Wilt's era would have been dominate.


Been dominant. He would dominate, making him dominant.

Anyways I agree, Wilt is more skilled. I still think Shaq brutalizes Wilt (both in primes) just like he did to every other player.

[moe94]

Speaking of "tomato cans"...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=curryed01&p2=onealsh01

Eddy Curry :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

I knew it was coming! :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

I knew it was coming! :roll:

We may not always agree, but I think you are a good poster.

:cheers:

[moe94]

We may not always agree, but I think you are a good poster.

:cheers:

Doesn't matter if we agree, you'll still beat me in any debate. :confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

Been dominant. He would dominate, making him dominant.

Anyways I agree, Wilt is more skilled. I still think Shaq brutalizes Wilt (both in primes) just like he did to every other player.

So you think Shaq would brutalize a Chamberlain who played most of his career between 280-320 lbs; was taller; longer; faster; higher vertical; and yes, stronger???

Shaq may have gotten away with this against Mutombo...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

but he would have been flattened by Chamberlain had he tried that against him.

[Dr.J4ever]

Shaq... I'll tell you why.. Shaq faced a higher level of competition, both with more sophisticated defenses and a better quality of big men COMBINED with the help defense............Many have proven here that Wilt's opponents were generally as big or as strong as a lot of the big men in the 90s(well maybe not Sabonis), but let us not forget the generally bigger group of help defenders(PFs and SFs and big guards who helped out) during the 90s and the modern game... Shaq faced that and dominated.. It's not Wilt's fault that the game was at a certain stage( a lesser stage) during the 60s, but Shaq being better and more dominant was still a fact.

Sophisticated defenses during the 90s were also a big factor. Watching film of Wilt dribble countless times into the lane without help defenders doubling him is just something that would not be commonplace today or during the 90s. There was much more individual defense back then, and you know what they say. Any skilled player can score if given enough man to man encounters in the box.. This is why many teams today double up the post whoever it is that is backing down in the lane. Philosophies have changed dramatically. To me, this is undeniable.. To act like today's stats are even comparable to the stats of the 60s is bordering on insanity.

If Wilt came back today at 22 years old, would he be dominant? No question. How dominant? We just don't know, and unless you saw Wilt play in his prime, it is just right for everyone to be humble since we all don't know.

[LAZERUSS]

Shaq... I'll tell you why.. Shaq faced a higher level of competition, both with more sophisticated defenses and a better quality of big men COMBINED with the help defense............Many have proven here that Wilt's opponents were generally as big or as strong as a lot of the big men in the 90s(well maybe not Sabonis), but let us not forget the generally bigger group of help defenders(PFs and SFs and big guards who helped out) during the 90s and the modern game... Shaq faced that and dominated.. It's not Wilt's fault that the game was at a certain stage( a lesser stage) during the 60s, but Shaq being better and more dominant was still a fact.

Sophisticated defenses during the 90s were also a big factor. Watching film of Wilt dribble countless times into the lane without help defenders doubling him is just something that would not be commonplace today or during the 90s. There was much more individual defense back then, and you know what they say. Any skilled player can score if given enough man to man encounters in the box.. This is why many teams today double up the post whoever it is that is backing down in the lane. Philosophies have changed dramatically. To me, this is undeniable.. To act like today's stats are even comparable to the stats of the 60s is bordering on insanity.

If Wilt came back today at 22 years old, would he be dominant? No question. How dominant? We just don't know, and unless you saw Wilt play in his prime, it is just right for everyone to be humble since we all don't know.

First of all, there is very little full game footage of Wilt. I believe 4-5 games, and even most of those are partials. Out of 1200 NBA games. And even in those he is often doubled, tripled, or swarmed.

Secondly, here is a link...just scroll down and read it...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301794&page=2

Next...how does Kareem fit into this? The PEAK/PRIME KAJ who shot .440 over the course of 40 H2H games with Thurmond, and had a high game of 34 points. The Kareem who shot .464 against Wilt in their 28 career H2H's (27 of which came after Wilt's surgery...and in the one game before, Wilt mopped the floor with him.) The Kareem who had PRIME seasons in the 70's of .539, .529, .518, and even .513 FG%'s. And yet a Kareem in the 80's was hanging seasons of .604 and even .599 (at age 37.) The Kareem, who at ages 38 and 39, and in the course of TEN STRAIGHT games against Hakeem, averaged 32 ppg on .621 shooting, with three games of 40+. The 39 year old Kareem who outscored Ewing in one H2H by a 40-9 margin (while outshooting him by 15-22 to 3-17.) The Kareem who, at ages 37-41, outscored a 23-26 Hakeem, and badly outshot him (.607 to .512) in their 23 H2H's. The 38-41 year old Kareem who outscored a 23-26 year old Ewing by 21-19 ppg and outshot him by a .581 to .446 margin in their career matchups.

How come an old Kareem dominated the best centers of the 80's, who would go on to be among the best centers of the 90's, so easily. Hell, and old Kareem hung 46 on a 23 year old Hakeem in only 37 minutes. A prime Shaq had his highest game against a fading Hakeem...of only 37 points. How come?

[CavaliersFTW]

Shaq... I'll tell you why.. Shaq faced a higher level of competition, both with more sophisticated defenses and a better quality of big men COMBINED with the help defense............Many have proven here that Wilt's opponents were generally as big or as strong as a lot of the big men in the 90s(well maybe not Sabonis), but let us not forget the generally bigger group of help defenders(PFs and SFs and big guards who helped out) during the 90s and the modern game... Shaq faced that and dominated.. It's not Wilt's fault that the game was at a certain stage( a lesser stage) during the 60s, but Shaq being better and more dominant was still a fact.

Sophisticated defenses during the 90s were also a big factor. Watching film of Wilt dribble countless times into the lane without help defenders doubling him is just something that would not be commonplace today or during the 90s. There was much more individual defense back then, and you know what they say. Any skilled player can score if given enough man to man encounters in the box.. This is why many teams today double up the post whoever it is that is backing down in the lane. Philosophies have changed dramatically. To me, this is undeniable.. To act like today's stats are even comparable to the stats of the 60s is bordering on insanity.

If Wilt came back today at 22 years old, would he be dominant? No question. How dominant? We just don't know, and unless you saw Wilt play in his prime, it is just right for everyone to be humble since we all don't know.
Stopped reading right there, as you've just indicated you're about to ramble on about stuff unrelated to what the simple question in the OP was.

Who was more skilled. Wilt or Shaq. Don't give me drivel about competition, it's a simple comparison between just two players. You can point out specifics in their skillset and actually contribute to answering the question, or you can talk to yourself about shit unrelated to this topic - but please do so without typing if that is what you would prefer to do.

[moe94]

Who are you kidding? You read that whole damn post but only felt the need to attack the first line.

[CavaliersFTW]

So you think Shaq would brutalize a Chamberlain who played most of his career between 280-320 lbs; was taller; longer; faster; higher vertical; and yes, stronger???

Shaq may have gotten away with this against Mutombo...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

but he would have been flattened by Chamberlain had he tried that against him.
:applause:

Shaq bulldozed guys 220-260lbs, Mutumbo was only about 235 - Wilt in his prime was 292lbs, Wilt as a Laker was 310lbs of solid muscle, not fat. Shaq would be in for a rude awakening if he dipped that shoulder on the Big Dipper and the refs didn't call it. First time he might get Wilt, 2nd time he'd be sent to the bleachers on his back.

[CavaliersFTW]

Who are you kidding? You read that whole damn post but only felt the need to attack the first line.
No I really didn't, I don't have time to read several paragraphs of recycled drivel from a guy who's just trying to get some jimmies rustled. I guarantee he managed to type all that and not give a single bit of pertinent information to the question in the OP. About skillsets.

[Dr.J4ever]

First of all, there is very little full game footage of Wilt. I believe 4-5 games, and even most of those are partials. Out of 1200 NBA games. And even in those he is often doubled, tripled, or swarmed.

Secondly, here is a link...just scroll down and read it...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301794&page=2

Next...how does Kareem fit into this? The PEAK/PRIME KAJ who shot .440 over the course of 40 H2H games with Thurmond, and had a high game of 34 points. The Kareem who shot .464 against Wilt in their 28 career H2H's (27 of which came after Wilt's surgery...and in the one game before, Wilt mopped the floor with him.) The Kareem who had PRIME seasons in the 70's of .539, .529, .518, and even .513 FG%'s. And yet a Kareem in the 80's was hanging seasons of .604 and even .599 (at age 37.) The Kareem, who at ages 38 and 39, and in the course of TEN STRAIGHT games against Hakeem, averaged 32 ppg on .621 shooting, with three games of 40+. The 39 year old Kareem who outscored Ewing in one H2H by a 40-9 margin (while outshooting him by 15-22 to 3-17.) The Kareem who, at ages 37-41, outscored a 23-26 Hakeem, and badly outshot him (.607 to .512) in their 23 H2H's. The 38-41 year old Kareem who outscored a 23-26 year old Ewing by 21-19 ppg and outshot him by a .581 to .446 margin in their career matchups.

How come an old Kareem dominated the best centers of the 80's, who would go on to be among the best centers of the 90's, so easily. Hell, and old Kareem hung 46 on a 23 year old Hakeem in only 37 minutes. A prime Shaq had his highest game against a fading Hakeem...of only 37 points. How come?
Where do I start? We argued about this in the past about KAJ being in peak form in the early 70s.. I tell you he was in peak form during the late 70s and early 80s.. granted that on the boards he was better during the early 70s. Usually, a player takes 3-4 years before hitting their peak form offensively.

Your "bridge theory" is really enlightening and worthy of debate, but I don't always see the game in man to man match ups all the time. A quick answer is that greats of one era will be USUALLY be great and will hold their own against the greats of other eras. So it's really no surprise that an older Wilt at times dominated KAJ. Evolution can take time and sometimes in very small steps. If you take it one game at a time or one year at a time, there doesn't seem too much change, but then you look at the game after 2 decades, the game is drastically different. It's really UNDENIABLE that the game is totally different today. Heck, if it was the same game from the 60s, then Wilt could come back and average 50ppg and 25 bpg..No one in his right mind will say that Wilt can do that. .......So the question is----------if Wilt can't come back and average 50ppg and 25 bpg in a full season, then the game is very different... common sense

[CavaliersFTW]

Just got a huge chunk of the Wilt scoring video done tonight, I'm down to my absolute last source of footage... the composition of him scoring in his prime years is looking epic as hell but now it is rather bittersweet realizing I've gotten to this point, knowing there's pretty much nothing left.

There's about 10 minutes of footage of prime Wilt scoring, that's it. 10 measly minutes of the most dominant offensive force in NBA history putting the ball in the hoop. There's more scoring footage of him as a college student, or as a Laker than there is of him in his prime. That's okay though, the 10 minutes I've got is enough to get a general idea of his habits putting the ball in the hoop. Composition should be done soon, hopefully within a week or two.

[LAZERUSS]

Where do I start? We argued about this in the past about KAJ being in peak form in the early 70s.. I tell you he was in peak form during the late 70s and early 80s.. granted that on the boards he was better during the early 70s. Usually, a player takes 3-4 years before hitting their peak form offensively.

Your "bridge theory" is really enlightening and worthy of debate, but I don't always see the game in man to man match ups all the time. A quick answer is that greats of one era will be USUALLY be great and will hold their own against the greats of other eras. So it's really no surprise that an older Wilt at times dominated KAJ. Evolution can take time and sometimes in very small steps. If you take it one game at a time or one year at a time, there doesn't seem too much change, but then you look at the game after 2 decades, the game is drastically different. It's really UNDENIABLE that the game is totally different today. Heck, if it was the same game from the 60s, then Wilt could come back and average 50ppg and 25 bpg..No one in his right mind will say that Wilt can do that. .......So the question is----------if Wilt can't come back and average 50ppg and 25 bpg in a full season, then the game is very different... common sense

The game is played today at a SLOWER pace than the Wilt era. The floor has also been spread considerably more, which, in theory, would have benefitted Wilt more.

As for KAJ. A PEAK early to mid-70's Kareem was MUCH quicker all over the floor, and shot the ball MUCH quicker, too. He was much more difficult to defend in his early 70's because of it. He was also much more athletic. You mention his rebounding. How about his defense? Take a look at the Buck teams he anchored in the early 70's. They were easily the best defensive teams in the league, and in fact, among the greatest in NBA history.

Having said all of that, a prime Wilt was FAR more dominant against the SAME centers that a PRIME Kareem would face later on. Just the season before KAJ came into the league, Wilt hung two 60+ point games (on two centers that Kareem's high games would be 41 points.) Then, in KAJ's rookie season, in which he would average 28.8 ppg on .518 shooting, in Wilt's first nine games, and before shredding his knee, Chamberlain was leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg on a .579 FG%. This was not a prime Wilt, either.

Which brings us back to an old KAJ, in 23 H2H games with Hakeem. 23 games. Not 3 or 4. 23 ppg on a .607 FG%. With seasons, covering five H2H's in each, of 32 and 33 ppg, on well over 60% shooting. If and old beat up Kareem was routinely hanging 40 point games on Hakeem, what in the hell would have a KAJ, circa from mid-way in his rookie season (and in the playoffs he went for 35 ppg on .567 shooting), thru his entire 70-71 season, and to the end of his 71-72 regular season, when he was scoring 35 ppg against everyone...have carpet-bombed Hakeem with ?

And keep in mind that KAJ was not even the best center in the NBA by the late 70's. Moses not only surpassed him, he was just killing him in the majority of their 41 H2H's (yes, 41 H2H's.) 23 to 41 H2H games are not some small sample size. They are truly indicative of just how the well the two played against each other. By the way, Chamberlain had 143 H2H's against Russell, and nearly AVERAGED a 30-30 game every time he stepped on the floor against him.

Wilt wouldn't average 50-25 in Shaq's NBA. But realistically, a peak Wilt's numbers translate to a 30-35 ppg, 16-18 rpg, 4-5 apg, 5-6 bpg, .580 -.600 FG% player in the Shaq era.

[LAZERUSS]

Just got a huge chunk of the Wilt scoring video done tonight, I'm down to my absolute last source of footage... the composition of him scoring in his prime years is looking epic as hell but now it is rather bittersweet realizing I've gotten to this point, knowing there's pretty much nothing left.

There's about 10 minutes of footage of prime Wilt scoring, that's it. 10 measly minutes of the most dominant offensive force in NBA history putting the ball in the hoop. There's more scoring footage of him as a college student, or as a Laker than there is of him in his prime. That's okay though, the 10 minutes I've got is enough to get a general idea of his habits putting the ball in the hoop. Composition should be done soon, hopefully within a week or two.

Once again, Chamberlain had 271 NBA games of 40+ points. And yet there is virtually no full game footage of even ONE of them.

[senelcoolidge]

It's scary how good Wilt was. Not just his physical superiority, but his skill set was off the charts. Shaq has nothing on Wilt easily. I watched a lot of Shaq and a lot of Wilt footage. It's not hard to see.

[Audio One]

First of all, there is very little full game footage of Wilt. I believe 4-5 games, and even most of those are partials. Out of 1200 NBA games. And even in those he is often doubled, tripled, or swarmed.

Secondly, here is a link...just scroll down and read it...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301794&page=2

Next...how does Kareem fit into this? The PEAK/PRIME KAJ who shot .440 over the course of 40 H2H games with Thurmond, and had a high game of 34 points. The Kareem who shot .464 against Wilt in their 28 career H2H's (27 of which came after Wilt's surgery...and in the one game before, Wilt mopped the floor with him.) The Kareem who had PRIME seasons in the 70's of .539, .529, .518, and even .513 FG%'s. And yet a Kareem in the 80's was hanging seasons of .604 and even .599 (at age 37.) The Kareem, who at ages 38 and 39, and in the course of TEN STRAIGHT games against Hakeem, averaged 32 ppg on .621 shooting, with three games of 40+. The 39 year old Kareem who outscored Ewing in one H2H by a 40-9 margin (while outshooting him by 15-22 to 3-17.) The Kareem who, at ages 37-41, outscored a 23-26 Hakeem, and badly outshot him (.607 to .512) in their 23 H2H's. The 38-41 year old Kareem who outscored a 23-26 year old Ewing by 21-19 ppg and outshot him by a .581 to .446 margin in their career matchups.

How come an old Kareem dominated the best centers of the 80's, who would go on to be among the best centers of the 90's, so easily. Hell, and old Kareem hung 46 on a 23 year old Hakeem in only 37 minutes. A prime Shaq had his highest game against a fading
Hakeem...of only 37 points. How come?

:applause:

I love watching u ROAST Olajuwon, always got me dying :roll:

[Lebron23]

It's scary how good Wilt was. Not just his physical superiority, but his skill set was off the charts. Shaq has nothing on Wilt easily. I watched a lot of Shaq and a lot of Wilt footage. It's not hard to see.


Shaq was just a better playoffs and Finals performer than 2x NBA Champion Wilt.

[PHILA]

Interested what Phila has to say actually, hopefully he sees the thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kWFTGzJJ_g&t=19s

I would have said Shaq has quicker more nimble feet (size 22 vs. size 15), but after seeing this move above, I am not sure anymore. My opinion is no more valid than yours or anyone else's. There is so little video footage available, any opinion I have would be incomplete. But I also agree Wilt had a wider array of shots and numerous passing skills. No matter what, I would not say there is a huge gap between these two, given that Shaq is one of the all time centers himself. I think it's clear Shaq used his body more, but I don't see him with the same agility and fluidity. That may be in part due to the rules though.



New York Times - June 20, 2001

''It has always been physical but, yes, it has become more physical,'' Reed said. ''Russell blocked shots with finesse, and Wilt used his height more than his muscle to get his points and rebounds. A lot of those plays today would have been called fouls when I played. I imagine some decisions by the league now, some rules changes, will be made.''

[Dr.J4ever]

The game is played today at a SLOWER pace than the Wilt era. The floor has also been spread considerably more, which, in theory, would have benefitted Wilt more.

As for KAJ. A PEAK early to mid-70's Kareem was MUCH quicker all over the floor, and shot the ball MUCH quicker, too. He was much more difficult to defend in his early 70's because of it. He was also much more athletic. You mention his rebounding. How about his defense? Take a look at the Buck teams he anchored in the early 70's. They were easily the best defensive teams in the league, and in fact, among the greatest in NBA history.

Having said all of that, a prime Wilt was FAR more dominant against the SAME centers that a PRIME Kareem would face later on. Just the season before KAJ came into the league, Wilt hung two 60+ point games (on two centers that Kareem's high games would be 41 points.) Then, in KAJ's rookie season, in which he would average 28.8 ppg on .518 shooting, in Wilt's first nine games, and before shredding his knee, Chamberlain was leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg on a .579 FG%. This was not a prime Wilt, either.

Which brings us back to an old KAJ, in 23 H2H games with Hakeem. 23 games. Not 3 or 4. 23 ppg on a .607 FG%. With seasons, covering five H2H's in each, of 32 and 33 ppg, on well over 60% shooting. If and old beat up Kareem was routinely hanging 40 point games on Hakeem, what in the hell would have a KAJ, circa from mid-way in his rookie season (and in the playoffs he went for 35 ppg on .567 shooting), thru his entire 70-71 season, and to the end of his 71-72 regular season, when he was scoring 35 ppg against everyone...have carpet-bombed Hakeem with ?

And keep in mind that KAJ was not even the best center in the NBA by the late 70's. Moses not only surpassed him, he was just killing him in the majority of their 41 H2H's (yes, 41 H2H's.) 23 to 41 H2H games are not some small sample size. They are truly indicative of just how the well the two played against each other. By the way, Chamberlain had 143 H2H's against Russell, and nearly AVERAGED a 30-30 game every time he stepped on the floor against him.

Wilt wouldn't average 50-25 in Shaq's NBA. But realistically, a peak Wilt's numbers translate to a 30-35 ppg, 16-18 rpg, 4-5 apg, 5-6 bpg, .580 -.600 FG% player in the Shaq era.
Well, at least we agree that the game is very different now with the pace etc.. This will explain why a prime Wilt would not average 50 and 25 today. To sidestep a bit--- are you guys sure about the amount of film on a prime Wilt? I remember watching NBA's greatest moments and I specifically remember seeing a Philly-Boston game during the mid 60s.. I tell you there was much more individual defense back then than today or the 90s.. You guys know almost everyone gets doubled up these days in the paint, not so in Wilt's era, and I've seen large swatches of games with MINIMAL double teams on Wilt in NBA basketball. I saw footage of Wilt double and triple teamed in college ball(provided by CavsFTW), but in the NBA games I saw Wilt was double teamed in the same way he would be in today's game.

[Dr.J4ever]

Well, at least we agree that the game is very different now with the pace etc.. This will explain why a prime Wilt would not average 50 and 25 today. To sidestep a bit--- are you guys sure about the amount of film on a prime Wilt? I remember watching NBA's greatest moments and I specifically remember seeing a Philly-Boston game during the mid 60s.. I tell you there was much more individual defense back then than today or the 90s.. You guys know almost everyone gets doubled up these days in the paint, not so in Wilt's era, and I've seen large swatches of games with MINIMAL double teams on Wilt in NBA basketball. I saw footage of Wilt double and triple teamed in college ball(provided by CavsFTW), but in the NBA games I saw Wilt was double teamed in the same way he would be in today's game.
Sorry WAS NOT DOUBLE TEAMED

[r0drig0lac]

wilt was simply better at everything (including athletic skills)

[BoutPractice]

Wilt had a wider variety of moves. It remains to be seen whether they were more effective than Shaq's. Certainly high efficiency is an indicator that they were effective enough, but one still can't help but wonder whether Wilt would've been even more unstoppable had he relied more on his power game.

[r0drig0lac]

Im going to say Wilt. Although Shaq in Wilt's era would have been dominate.
not, at any time with refs officiating correctly, shaq lakers would not have been much on the court due to marking their offensive fouls

[Y2ktors]

Wily by far
Shaq was all power and natural talent but he was an alpha while Wilt was a beta pussboi who didnt want to destroy ppl with his God given physical talents. He wanted to impress with "skills" and pretty stats which is why he ended with 1 ring as the man as it one of the alltime playoff chokers while Shaq is the opposite
2 rings

[r0drig0lac]

:applause:

Shaq bulldozed guys 220-260lbs, Mutumbo was only about 235 - Wilt in his prime was 292lbs, Wilt as a Laker was 310lbs of solid muscle, not fat. Shaq would be in for a rude awakening if he dipped that shoulder on the Big Dipper and the refs didn't call it. First time he might get Wilt, 2nd time he'd be sent to the bleachers on his back.
exactly, what people do not realize is that without researching wilt was stronger, faster and more athletic than shaq, and so has not been heavier than shaq lakers for a small difference, it would not be enough to make shaq dominate physically. Wilt frustrate shaq not being able to run your game plan and abusing shaq at the other end for its variety of offensive moves

[dankok8]

In terms of upper body strength Wilt and Shaq are probably just about equal looking at their build and how they abused people at point blank. However Shaq does have a major edge in the lower body with those tree trunk legs. When fighting for position the legs are the pivot and O'Neal would probably get the better of Wilt. Shaq was simply an unmovable 340-pound rock...

[CavaliersFTW]

Check out this clip of Wilt playing like Shaq, just bruising in with his body and punishing with a dunk:
http://youtu.be/9eKgVWoCi9g?t=10m20s

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt and its not even close.

[CavaliersFTW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kWFTGzJJ_g&t=19s

I would have said Shaq has quicker more nimble feet (size 22 vs. size 15), but after seeing this move above, I am not sure anymore. My opinion is no more valid than yours or anyone else's. There is so little video footage available, any opinion I have would be incomplete. But I also agree Wilt had a wider array of shots and numerous passing skills. No matter what, I would not say there is a huge gap between these two, given that Shaq is one of the all time centers himself. I think it's clear Shaq used his body more, but I don't see him with the same agility and fluidity. That may be in part due to the rules though.



New York Times - June 20, 2001

''It has always been physical but, yes, it has become more physical,'' Reed said. ''Russell blocked shots with finesse, and Wilt used his height more than his muscle to get his points and rebounds. A lot of those plays today would have been called fouls when I played. I imagine some decisions by the league now, some rules changes, will be made.''
Quite the contrary, your opinion is more valid than most people's who fall under the category of people that did not watch him play. You have seen most all the footage of Wilt that is available which means you're one of few people that can form an opinion on Wilt without excessive use of broad sweeping generalizations, assumptions and imagination. :cheers:

The recent efootage films have been really revealing, they sparked me to work on the project that I'm finishing up (Wilt highlights from scoring years). Prior to those clips existence this highlight would not have looked all that great IMO, as I was once under the impression Wilt did more moves in the post in his Laker years. Now after compiling everything I think that was an incorrect assumption on my part. I think Wilt probably used the widest array of moves when young, there just isn't footage that captured all of them. Case in point, in the 1973 Finals game that up and under move he pulled on Willis Reed looks great right? Seen him do that move in another clip on Jerry Lucas I believe, but both times it was while he was as a Laker. That move did not exist in footage of him when he was younger. Until the efootage clips came out and he does it against one of the guys on the Pistons in '66. Then he busts out two more impressive moves that I had never actually seen him do in any other highlights, and it just looks so easy and natural for him like he's done them before.

With the recent influx of Wilt footage lately I get the idea there's more to Wilt's game than we currently know about. We really are looking through a small window. That said, someone like you at least has been able to see through that window, most people just make assumptions off a fraction of the content you or I see. There's probably enough footage out there to get a good idea of his core moves (fingerroll, bank shots, fade aways, dunks), but it's the rarer moves that he would use reacting to specific defenses or defenders that we probably miss out on. Still, there's enough of a glimpse of those now, that I'm comfortable making the scoring mix I'm putting together.

[Pointguard]

Once again, Chamberlain had 271 NBA games of 40+ points. And yet there is virtually no full game footage of even ONE of them.
This is not unintentional.

[Pointguard]

I can't say whom I think has more skill. Wilt used skills more often by virtue of being more of a finesse player. Shaq rarely showed his full repertoire but you always got a taste here and there. But he didn't always play a very skilled game.

If Wilt played now, with the benefit of seeing dimensions added to his post game by Hakeem. Great footage above showing Wilt with those advanced post moves very similar to what Hakeem would do years later. Wilt rarely gets credit for being the first player ever to play above the rim with real offensive presence.

Shooting a dip shot is not easy and few players could do it with any consistency. It requires a body balance that few players have. Wilt had more consistent range than most great centers with the turn around jump shot as well. Few tall players could do that and bank the shot as well. I notice a lot of people say Dirk is the most skilled PF because he shot is such a skilled shot. In this sense, no way Shaq could be considered more skilled.

Overall I think Wilt is more skilled because he used skill much more and its hard to say that Wilt couldn't do something that Shaq did.

[mehyaM24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLrMw3vvhQw

as great as wilt was(though his play completely fell off in the postseason), shaq's quickness, agility, and skill ON THE COURT were just better....i have seen enough wilt highlights of him putting down soft dunks, slow fadeaways and putting up that weak finger roll. almost like post moves were nonexistent then. Shaq hovered around 350 lbs and had a 36" vert was a much more athletic player than lanky Wilt, unless you believe those wild stories without any basis that film doesn't reflect.

check out "shaq leads a fast break" on youtube. listen to the announcer...BOTH announcers.. "shaq coast to coast with dream team 2" "shaq steals the ball and dunks it for the win." "shaq vs spurs,march 6,1994"...check shaqs acceleration,beating robinson to a loose ball for a fast break jam. i want to see wilt leading a fastbreak with those kinda handles.

[fpliii]

Check out this clip of Wilt playing like Shaq, just bruising in with his body and punishing with a dunk:
http://youtu.be/9eKgVWoCi9g?t=10m20s
Incredible stuff. Apologies if I'm being presumptuous, but does the length of the footage indicate the mix is nearly complete (a few weeks ago a WIP version was at five minutes, and in believe you said it was about half the length of the final version)? Thanks for your hard work, as always.

[Pointguard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLrMw3vvhQw

as great as wilt was(though his play completely fell off in the postseason), shaq's quickness, agility, and skill ON THE COURT were just better

Wow, what a hater! Why should Wilt's skill in getting women be held against him?

[PHILA]

Quite the contrary, your opinion is more valid than most people's who fall under the category of people that did not watch him play. You have seen most all the footage of Wilt that is available which means you're one of few people that can form an opinion on Wilt without excessive use of broad sweeping generalizations, assumptions and imagination.
I doubt I have seen more footage than you, but perhaps the poster Pointguard has. I am just waiting for this digital archive (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nba-expands-relationship-with-sgi-on-groundbreaking-digital-media-management-system-57411732.html) to be finished and released to the public. They have over 400,000 hours of video going back to 1946.





http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7110953&postcount=64

The NBA has shown itself to be control freaks. Even going after people overseas about older footage. And control freaks are never obsessed by things they don't have.

I used to work for NY Public Library in the Donell and Lincoln center branches. They had a Wilt monster game there back in the 80's. As a teen I figured it would always be there. Now, they claim they don't have it. When I moved into producing I used to access old films from all types of sources and most institutions have no shame in stating their gaps in archives. The NBA was just evasive. The NFL has huge gaps but they admit it. But they have film of Jim Thorpe playing... Jim Thorpe was born in the 1880's. Back in the '20's and 30's they were no match as an institution for the NBA in the 60's as far as resources and remember the economic downspin at that time.




http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6357976&postcount=53

"As I mentioned above the reel to reel storage required space but wasn't that expensive. I don't know the copyright situations of the early 1960's but I'm pretty sure it was the same way as it is now and similar to other media I can vouch for. The local stations give a copy to the copyright owner and keep their copy. NBC, ABC and CBS keep everything that is nationally televised. I have requested early 1960's Ali fights, 1950's Olympic introduction ceremonies, 1930's Yankee footage for other stations. In theory there are two copies out there - the counter is that one is likely lost to preservation issues, water or heat damage - particurally to the outer portions of the reel to reel which I've seen fade. But, there is also a great chance of two or three fanatics with filming, preserving and storage capability.

Filming should have increased dramatically after Wilt put a century number up in a professional sport. Lets say of Wilt's 500 monster games that should provide 200 film and keep opportunities between NBA and local stations or 100 chances for different films.

I saw a monster game by Wilt in Lincoln Center New York. Where NY Public/Research Library had, at one time, the full collection of TV in the 1960's in NY. This was before people were rescinding copyright's and such. It was my first job and I assumed it would always be there but it wasn't. I handled reel to reel a lot. So I know its out there - to me its a question of how much is."

[CavaliersFTW]

Incredible stuff. Apologies if I'm being presumptuous, but does the length of the footage indicate the mix is nearly complete (a few weeks ago a WIP version was at five minutes, and in believe you said it was about half the length of the final version)? Thanks for your hard work, as always.
Yes, I'm down to my last source of pre-Lakers Wilt footage ('67 Finals). Then it's just color correction/aspect ratio correction, and tweaking what clips go where

[CavaliersFTW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLrMw3vvhQw

as great as wilt was(though his play completely fell off in the postseason), shaq's quickness, agility, and skill ON THE COURT were just better....i have seen enough wilt highlights of him putting down soft dunks, slow fadeaways and putting up that weak finger roll. almost like post moves were nonexistent then. Shaq hovered around 350 lbs and had a 36" vert was a much more athletic player than lanky Wilt, unless you believe those wild stories without any basis that film doesn't reflect.

check out "shaq leads a fast break" on youtube. listen to the announcer...BOTH announcers.. "shaq coast to coast with dream team 2" "shaq steals the ball and dunks it for the win." "shaq vs spurs,march 6,1994"...check shaqs acceleration,beating robinson to a loose ball for a fast break jam. i want to see wilt leading a fastbreak with those kinda handles.
1st bolded:
no such thing :no:

2nd bolded:
Ridiculous, you didn't even watch my video if you think that's true, and you haven't seen squat as far as footage of that era if you think players back then didn't use great post moves.

3rd bolded:
Shaq at 20 years old and 300lbs had a 36" vert. 350lb Snaq most certainly did not, though he was still nimble for a few years with the Lakers being obese. Once his age combined with his weight though, he lost his athleticism. Wilt never lost his, and Wilt was 290lbs-310lbs from his prime to his veteran years, hardly "Lanky". We don't know Wilt's vertical but we do know Shaq also clocked a 5.8 40 yard dash, as compared to Wilt's 4.6... And he was a conference High Jumper... So... Wilt was no slouch in athleticism.

4th bolded:
http://youtu.be/zukRbA3y0qo?t=8m39s
http://youtu.be/zukRbA3y0qo?t=3m6s

Wilt didn't make a habit of running the break but he could. Shaq's handle probably is better than Wilt's, but in Shaq's era you can carry the ball and get away with much more traveling than you could in Wilt's era. So Wilt disciplined himself to playing half court ball more exclusively than Shaq did, nothing wrong with that. For every fast break Shaq ran Wilt probably shot two or three more jump shots than Shaq would have. They played the game slightly different, I get the idea you think Wilt was worse than he really was, and I get the idea I've seen you on Youtube before because I've heard all these arguments recycled before with the use of those examples you provided. You're not that annoying Shaqattack guy on YT are you? :lol

[Pointguard]

I doubt I have seen more footage than you, but perhaps the poster Pointguard has. I am just waiting for this digital archive (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nba-expands-relationship-with-sgi-on-groundbreaking-digital-media-management-system-57411732.html) to be finished and released to the public. They have over 400,000 hours of video going back to 1946.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7110953&postcount=64

The NBA has shown itself to be control freaks. Even going after people overseas about older footage. And control freaks are never obsessed by things they don't have.

I used to work for NY Public Library in the Donell and Lincoln center branches. They had a Wilt monster game there back in the 80's. As a teen I figured it would always be there. Now, they claim they don't have it. When I moved into producing I used to access old films from all types of sources and most institutions have no shame in stating their gaps in archives. The NBA was just evasive. The NFL has huge gaps but they admit it. But they have film of Jim Thorpe playing... Jim Thorpe was born in the 1880's. Back in the '20's and 30's they were no match as an institution for the NBA in the 60's as far as resources and remember the economic downspin at that time.




http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6357976&postcount=53

"As I mentioned above the reel to reel storage required space but wasn't that expensive. I don't know the copyright situations of the early 1960's but I'm pretty sure it was the same way as it is now and similar to other media I can vouch for. The local stations give a copy to the copyright owner and keep their copy. NBC, ABC and CBS keep everything that is nationally televised. I have requested early 1960's Ali fights, 1950's Olympic introduction ceremonies, 1930's Yankee footage for other stations. In theory there are two copies out there - the counter is that one is likely lost to preservation issues, water or heat damage - particurally to the outer portions of the reel to reel which I've seen fade. But, there is also a great chance of two or three fanatics with filming, preserving and storage capability.

Filming should have increased dramatically after Wilt put a century number up in a professional sport. Lets say of Wilt's 500 monster games that should provide 200 film and keep opportunities between NBA and local stations or 100 chances for different films.

I saw a monster game by Wilt in Lincoln Center New York. Where NY Public/Research Library had, at one time, the full collection of TV in the 1960's in NY. This was before people were rescinding copyright's and such. It was my first job and I assumed it would always be there but it wasn't. I handled reel to reel a lot. So I know its out there - to me its a question of how much is."

Thanks!

I got tired of restating this and rarely go there now. I saw a Wilt that made up his mind very quick with the ball like young Amare and with the same bounce.

[CavaliersFTW]

Thanks!

I got tired of restating this and rarely go there now. I saw a Wilt that made up his mind very quick with the ball like young Amare and with the same bounce.
What if it was just one of the games we've now all already seen thanks to the NBAtv and Youtube era though? Wilt vs Chicago, or Wilt vs NY G5 Finals.... seriously, it might just be one of those no? :confusedshrug: Or did you see this game too?

I was contacted by the NBA at the time of last years playoffs, they did not seem to come off as if they were 'holding out' on archives of footage, rather, they seemed desperate to find anything floating around thus they contacted me to see if I had anything they did not. Games like the 1973 Knicks game that recently surfaced in some guys basement which was immediately restored and played on MSG network attest to this notion that the NBA just doesn't have much of anything. No? I'm under the impression the NBA just doesn't have much. They remain hush about it unlike the NFL, but I think like the NFL they just don't have much.

[SilkkTheShocker]

http://i.4cdn.org/b/src/1390322899324.gif

[CavaliersFTW]

[/COLOR]
http://i.4cdn.org/b/src/1390322899324.gif
Didn't read what? OP is a one line question not an essay that takes time to read :lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I know a source who has/had access to CBS vaults (NFL/NBA/NHL). Practically everything in their archive(s), from 78-up, is in MASTER quality or better. I can also confirm that anything prior to that is up in the air (might not even exist), because these networks didn't have the needed storage, at the time, to keep everything...Unfortunate really.

I'm still looking for "lost" Jordan games. :oldlol:

[215Philly]

Embiid :banana:

[oarabbus]

http://i.4cdn.org/b/src/1390322899324.gif


These are the worst. Didn't read, but still took the time to post about how they didn't read. :facepalm

[PHILA]

I know a source who has/had access to CBS vaults (NFL/NBA/NHL). Practically everything in their archive(s), from 78-up, is in MASTER quality or better. I can also confirm that anything prior to that is up in the air (might not even exist), because these networks didn't have the needed storage, at the time, to keep everything...Unfortunate really.

I'm still looking for "lost" Jordan games. :oldlol:


It doesn't even have to be the national ABC games. We know the NBA games were also broadcast locally. Perhaps there is a chance one of these local networks kept something.

[CavaliersFTW]

I know a source who has/had access to CBS vaults (NFL/NBA/NHL). Practically everything in their archive(s), from 78-up, is in MASTER quality or better. I can also confirm that anything prior to that is up in the air (might not even exist), because these networks didn't have the needed storage, at the time, to keep everything...Unfortunate really.

I'm still looking for "lost" Jordan games. :oldlol:
I feel your pain, but at least you HAVE Jordan games to watch, seriously not a single complete game of Wilt's exists (to my knowledge) from 1959 - 1969 up until the 1969 NBA all star game, where he scores 4 points and plays defense all game... his entire prime is completely absent in full game form :oldlol:

[PHILA]

Thanks!

I got tired of restating this and rarely go there now. I saw a Wilt that made up his mind very quick with the ball like young Amare and with the same bounce.
Yes, another thing that stands out to me is his patience in hitting cutters. No double teams would affect him a great deal like some have said.

[fpliii]

Yes, I'm down to my last source of pre-Lakers Wilt footage ('67 Finals). Then it's just color correction/aspect ratio correction, and tweaking what clips go where
Very nice, thanks again for all that you do. Looking forward to it (I held back on sending my dad the earlier version, so I'm sure he is as well).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I feel your pain, but at least you HAVE Jordan games to watch, seriously not a single complete game of Wilt's exists (to my knowledge) from 1959 - 1969 up until the 1969 NBA all star game, where he scores 4 points and plays defense all game... his entire prime is completely absent in full game form :oldlol:

:oldlol:

True. You'd think, for one of THE greatest athletes to ever walk this planet, these clowns would have have recorded (and kept in completion) at least ONE of Wilt's games.

Seriously how is there not ONE single complete game of Wilt's that has surfaced? WTF?

I hope they're holding out on us....

[Pointguard]

What if it was just one of the games we've now all already seen thanks to the NBAtv and Youtube era though? Wilt vs Chicago, or Wilt vs NY G5 Finals.... seriously, it might just be one of those no? :confusedshrug:

I was contacted by the NBA at the time of last years playoffs, they did not seem to come off as if they were 'holding out' on archives of footage, rather, they seemed desperate to find anything floating around thus they contacted me to see if I had anything they did not. Games like the 1973 Knicks game that recently surfaced in some guys basement attest to this notion that the NBA just doesn't have much of anything. No? I'm under the impression the NBA just doesn't have much. They remain hush about it unlike the NFL, but I think like the NFL they just don't have much.
It was a 40 point game and my co-worker knew it was going to be a 40 point game, and my guess is that his guess was because of era as he wasn't a precise remember numbers type of guy as some Librarians were. I was still a teen and didn't have a historical or coaching perspective I have now but it helped inspire my later interest.

I worked for a national network and acquiring film work from other similar institutions was/is very formal. Its not the same as them answering to you requesting a film. They couldn't really give me a "I'm holding out" type of answer like you are suggesting and apparently have gotten before. An individual gets treated way different than sister institution does. I have great instinct of personality and after acquiring hundreds of films, you kind of know who to ask the same question to three or four times in different ways - my job depended on having that skill: What are no answers, what are evasive answers, what are maybe later answers.

I don't recall the pursue chart but it would look like this:
There are 271 games of Wilt scoring at this level
There are definitely 20 games in at least 20 minute segments before 1960
There are definitely another 40 contemporary games in circulation before 1964 in full format.
There were at least two copies of 200 games by two separate institutions with one having legal retaining rights for a certain amount of years.
400 chances of existence without a damage report on either side.
The response letter doesn't say it doesn't exist.
We don't have records of the NBA pursing our sister station for copies.
No records of NBA making it public that they lost or it got damaged.
NFL and MLB don't write rejection letters the same way.

Footage exist but where?

I will definitely call back and pursue in a different way.

As far asking an individual does he have copies as the NBA did with you, it's definitely not the same as asking the general public. If they really wanted footage asking you as an individual isn't a real earnest attempt. As far as the guy finding it in his basement that was beyond NBA control and was probably in media hands first. And this is a great time for them to push their search for missing footage. It wouldn't surprise me if they aired their hidden version and not his should be loud reel to reel home made copy. But it makes for good mythology on your end, but seems highly unlikely if you are in the field.

[Pointguard]

Yes, another thing that stands out to me is his patience in hitting cutters. No double teams would affect him a great deal like some have said.

Yes! he would hit the second cutter which is something a very seasoned passer would do as he knows the lane is clearer and the rebound is much more accessible on that side of the basket. Wilt was a very heady player.

He had his head up and showed great patience. I like how he waves off the first cutter here for the cutter on the other side here at the 1:39 second mark in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWHKZlQ9x7Q

[LAZERUSS]

It was a 40 point game and my co-worker knew it was going to be a 40 point game, and my guess is that his guess was because of era as he wasn't a precise remember numbers type of guy as some Librarians were. I was still a teen and didn't have a historical or coaching perspective I have now but it helped inspire my later interest.

I worked for a national network and acquiring film work from other similar institutions was/is very formal. Its not the same as them answering to you requesting a film. They couldn't really give me a "I'm holding out" type of answer like you are suggesting and apparently have gotten before. An individual gets treated way different than sister institution does. I have great instinct of personality and after acquiring hundreds of films, you kind of know who to ask the same question to three or four times in different ways - my job depended on having that skill: What are no answers, what are evasive answers, what are maybe later answers.

I don't recall the pursue chart but it would look like this:
There are 271 games of Wilt scoring at this level
There are definitely 20 games in at least 20 minute segments before 1960
There are definitely another 40 contemporary games in circulation before 1964 in full format.
There were at least two copies of 200 games by two separate institutions with one having legal retaining rights for a certain amount of years.
400 chances of existence without a damage report on either side.
The response letter doesn't say it doesn't exist.
We don't have records of the NBA pursing our sister station for copies.
No records of NBA making it public that they lost or it got damaged.
NFL and MLB don't write rejection letters the same way.

Footage exist but where?

I will definitely call back and pursue in a different way.

As far asking an individual does he have copies as the NBA did with you, it's definitely not the same as asking the general public. If they really wanted footage asking you as an individual isn't a real earnest attempt. As far as the guy finding it in his basement that was beyond NBA control and was probably in media hands first. And this is a great time for them to push their search for missing footage. It wouldn't surprise me if they aired their hidden version and not his should be loud reel to reel home made copy. But it makes for good mythology on your end, but seems highly unlikely if you are in the field.

Not sure if anyone would trust Bill Simmons, but he claims to have watched (and of course, been unimpressed) one of Wilt's 73 point games on video.

And years ago I recall a sportswriter on another forum, who claimed to have seen a Chamberlain 40 point game at some Library, as well. But that was long ago, and I doubt I could find it now.

In any case, many of Wilt's games were televised. I just find it hard to believe that not even ONE of his 271 40+ point game exists.

[CavaliersFTW]

Not sure if anyone would trust Bill Simmons, but he claims to have watched (and of course, been unimpressed) one of Wilt's 73 point games on video.

And years ago I recall a sportswriter on another forum, who claimed to have seen a Chamberlain 40 point game at some Library, as well. But that was long ago, and I doubt I could find it now.

In any case, many of Wilt's games were televised. I just find it hard to believe that not even ONE of his 271 40+ point game exists.
Simmons is full of shit.

[Dr.J4ever]

Simmons is full of shit.
As I said, I saw a full game being played on NBA TV "NBA's Greatest Games" which was a black and white Philly vs Boston sometime in the 60s..I don't know if you guys saw that.

[CavaliersFTW]

As I said, I saw a full game being played on NBA TV "NBA's Greatest Games" which was a black and white Philly vs Boston sometime in the 60s..I don't know if you guys saw that.
No, you saw a 2nd half being played - it wasn't the full game

[LAZERUSS]

No, you saw a 2nd half being played - it wasn't the full game

Don't you find it somewhat odd that when we know that so many of the Wilt-Russell games were telecast nationally on Sundays throughout the 60's,and that many of the Wilt's other games were also nationally televised (nearly all of the Buck-Laker games from 71-72 into 72-73), that we only have a couple of his games, and arguably, only won dominant one?

[CavaliersFTW]

Don't you find it somewhat odd that when we know that so many of the Wilt-Russell games were telecast nationally on Sundays throughout the 60's,and that many of the Wilt's other games were also nationally televised (nearly all of the Buck-Laker games from 71-72 into 72-73), that we only have a couple of his games, and arguably, only won dominant one?
The NBA doesn't have hardly ANY games from the 60's, they aren't singling out Wilt in an effort to hide his dominance or w/e this isn't a conspiracy IMO.

Look, you and point guard seem near convinced the NBA (or some sort of powers that be) is holding out on some stock of old Wilt games. I am open to the idea that they may not have shown everything they've got as far as old sports films goes, I'm sure there are a lot of at least little short reels from some old games on silent b/w 8mm or w/e format was popular back then. But I personally really doubt the NBA has any old full games with sound etc lying around on a shelf out there they haven't already tried to re-broadcast or at the very least show clips from in at least some documentary or highlight sequences in some form or another in the past 40 years.

Most all the Wilt footage and mixes the NBA and ESPN has ever made or put together I've ever seen I've been able to locate the sources. Again I'm open to the idea they haven't shown everything they've got from the 1960's on film, but I just highly highly doubt there are full games and what not that are just collecting dust on their shelves. I hope I'm wrong though.

[fpliii]

The NBA doesn't have hardly ANY games from the 60's, they aren't singling out Wilt in an effort to hide his dominance or w/e this isn't a conspiracy.

Look, you and point guard seem near convinced the NBA (or some sort of powers that be) is holding out on some stock of old Wilt games. I am open to the idea that they may not have shown everything they've got as far as old sports films goes, but I personally really doubt the NBA has any old full games lying around on a shelf out there they haven't already tried to re-broadcast or at the very least show clips from in at least some documentary or highlight sequences in some form or another in the past 40 years.

Most all the Wilt footage and mixes the NBA and ESPN has ever made or put together I've ever seen I've been able to locate the sources. Again I'm open to the idea they haven't shown everything they've got from the 1960's on film, but I just highly highly doubt there are full games and what not that are just collecting dust on their archive shelves.

I'm inclined to agree. There might be a handful of rare cases of single copies sitting around (like that 73 game), but I think a lot of these games are just lost/recorded over.

I linked Cavs to this site a couple of months ago, it's where I found a copy of 73 G5:

http://ihaveplanet.com/Trading/TradingBoard.aspx?Board=29

A lot of these guys have MASSIVE collections of games. They might not have the same background/connections as Pointguard (who has made me somewhat optimistic now that there might be footage out there), but I think these guys are fairly dedicated collectors. So few games are out there, prior to a certain point (74-75 is when it starts to pick up though there's a big jump in 77-78, unfortunately that's the year after West/Oscar retired, two years after Wilt, and six years after Russell).

[LAZERUSS]

The NBA doesn't have hardly ANY games from the 60's, they aren't singling out Wilt in an effort to hide his dominance or w/e this isn't a conspiracy IMO.

Look, you and point guard seem near convinced the NBA (or some sort of powers that be) is holding out on some stock of old Wilt games. I am open to the idea that they may not have shown everything they've got as far as old sports films goes, I'm sure there are a lot of at least little short reels from some old games on silent b/w 8mm or w/e format was popular back then. But I personally really doubt the NBA has any old full games with sound etc lying around on a shelf out there they haven't already tried to re-broadcast or at the very least show clips from in at least some documentary or highlight sequences in some form or another in the past 40 years.

Most all the Wilt footage and mixes the NBA and ESPN has ever made or put together I've ever seen I've been able to locate the sources. Again I'm open to the idea they haven't shown everything they've got from the 1960's on film, but I just highly highly doubt there are full games and what not that are just collecting dust on their shelves.

And yet, full games of the mid-60's Celtics-Royals games exist. And with all of the televised Kareem-Wilt H2H's, only ONE game, and of course, it was one of the few in which KAJ really outplayed Chamberlain (and broke LA's 33 game winning streak.)

Just seems odd....

[CavaliersFTW]

And yet, full games of the mid-60's Celtics-Royals games exist. And with all of the televised Kareem-Wilt H2H's, only ONE game, and of course, it was one of the few in which KAJ really outplayed Chamberlain (and broke LA's 33 game winning streak.)

Just seems odd....
Which full games of the Celtics Royals are you aware of? I'm aware of none

[LAZERUSS]

Which full games of the Celtics Royals are you aware of? I'm aware of none

I believe 1966 game five.

[La Frescobaldi]

Guys , they broadcasted lots of '60s NBA games with the door open on the cameras. No film at all.

They just ran straight out to the feed and the games were broadcast live with no tape, just a running camera. The network's view was 'why spend money for expensive camera film on an NBA game?'

And if they did record a game, they would cut - with scissors - the highlights out of the film and splice them together for the evening news. The rest of the film would get recorded over for another show.

You could stand right by the camera guys in the '60s but by '69 or '70 there had been too many accidents and they started putting them in a booth or behind a screen or whatever.

There was a camera guy that worked if I remember for ABC local and that guy would set up his camera and proceed to get wasted and watch the game and even more, all the hot babes in the stands. He was in Baltimore and maybe Philly sometimes and he was a whisky swilling stoner. You could go stand behind that camera and look through the lens, move it around, that guy didn't care/ was oblivious. There wasn't hardly ever any tape in those cameras. Just how it was.

[La Frescobaldi]

Which full games of the Celtics Royals are you aware of? I'm aware of none
yeah there was one on youtube a few months back dunno if it's still there. In color too. Seemed like it was part of a documentary

[Dr.J4ever]

No, you saw a 2nd half being played - it wasn't the full game
Could have sworn it was a full game, but since I didn't watch the entire game, I won't insist on it for now. Let me see if I can do some background research on it when I have time. I remember also seeing on "NBA's Greatest Games" a San Fran Warriors vs Celtics in the 60s, and if my memory serves me right, it was a Finals game.

[LAZERUSS]

Could have sworn it was a full game, but since I didn't watch the entire game, I won't insist on it for now. Let me see if I can do some background research on it when I have time. I remember also seeing on "NBA's Greatest Games" a San Fran Warriors vs Celtics in the 60s, and if my memory serves me right, it was a Finals game.

I do know that the second half of game four of that Finals is available on YouTube. Too bad they didn't have the entire game. It was another Wilt beatdown of Russell. He outscored Russell, 27-8, and outrebounded him, 38-19. There is no way anyone watches that game and comes away thinking Russell was the better player.

[CavaliersFTW]

yeah there was one on youtube a few months back dunno if it's still there. In color too. Seemed like it was part of a documentary
I don't miss out on anything if it hits Youtube, I search daily for new content - you guys sure it wasn't just this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6kIu34Qsc

Or the game half which I took these clips from:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PUNc8ILqSs

[LAZERUSS]

I don't miss out on anything if it hits Youtube, I search daily for new content - you guys sure it wasn't just this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6kIu34Qsc

Or the game half which I took these clips from:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PUNc8ILqSs


Not sure. It seems to me in was in parts, and not in a full 47 minute segment.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm inclined to agree. There might be a handful of rare cases of single copies sitting around (like that 73 game), but I think a lot of these games are just lost/recorded over.

I linked Cavs to this site a couple of months ago, it's where I found a copy of 73 G5:

http://ihaveplanet.com/Trading/TradingBoard.aspx?Board=29

A lot of these guys have MASSIVE collections of games. They might not have the same background/connections as Pointguard (who has made me somewhat optimistic now that there might be footage out there), but I think these guys are fairly dedicated collectors. So few games are out there, prior to a certain point (74-75 is when it starts to pick up though there's a big jump in 77-78, unfortunately that's the year after West/Oscar retired, two years after Wilt, and six years after Russell).

Are you a member of that website? I won't reveal my name, but I am one of those "dedicated collectors" - and my connection(s) told me, via huge networks, the likelihood of these "full" 60's games existing....is pretty slim.

There IS a "vault" in Queens, NY (and another in Jersey, where everything in the last 20 years, be it NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL has been recorded) that has thousands of canisters of film in storage. My source says he will keep an eye out for old rare games... but cautioned that there may be limits to what they can do with them being that NBA will own the rights (not the station).

We should pool resources to fund conversion if need be. :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

Are you a member of that website? I won't reveal my name, but I'm one of those "dedicated" collectors - and my connection(s) told me, via huge networks, the likelihood of these "full" 60's games existing....is pretty slim.

There IS a "vault" in Queens, NY (and another in Jersey, where everything in the last 20 years, be it NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL has been recorded) that has thousands of canisters of film in storage. My source says he will keep an eye out for old rare games... but cautioned that there may be limits to what they can do with them being that NBA will own the rights (not the station).

We should pool resources to fund conversion if need be. :oldlol:

I seem to remember around a year ago, or so, that the NBA was going to release a ton of historical footage. It obviously hasn't happened yet, but I swear I read something along those lines, somewhere.

[CavaliersFTW]

Are you a member of that website? I won't reveal my name, but I am one of those "dedicated collectors" - and my connection(s) told me, via huge networks, the likelihood of these "full" 60's games existing....is pretty slim.

There IS a "vault" in Queens, NY (and another in Jersey, where everything in the last 20 years, be it NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL has been recorded) that has thousands of canisters of film in storage. My source says he will keep an eye out for old rare games... but cautioned that there may be limits to what they can do with them being that NBA will own the rights (not the station).

We should pool resources to fund conversion if need be. :oldlol:
NJ is where the digital media / archive folks from the NBA called/contacted me from

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Complete TV Broadcast of 1960 World Series Game 7 found
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/24/sports/baseball/24crosby.html?_r=1

Just ONE of the recent huge discoveries...

[fpliii]

Are you a member of that website? I won't reveal my name, but I'm one of those "dedicated" collectors - and my connection(s) told me, via huge networks, the likelihood of these "full" 60's games existing....is pretty slim.

There IS a "vault" in Queens, NY (and another in Jersey, where everything in the last 20 years, be it NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL has been recorded) that has thousands of canisters of film in storage. My source says he will keep an eye out for old rare games... but cautioned that there may be limits to what they can do with them being that NBA will own the rights (not the station).

We should pool resources to fund conversion if need be. :oldlol:

lol I am, but I just started up:

http://ihaveplanet.com/Users/User.aspx?User=1848944

I probably should acquire more games, but I just watch everything else on YouTube, or download the torrents and delete them after watching.

Would be incredible if he can find something, anything really. Thanks for looking out. I think CavsFTW had mentioned that from his understanding, the only other footage out there is from small clips or highlight videos (a lot of papers back in the day had advertisements for broadcasts of special footage in theaters, some even offered home video, but I can't imagine what the formats, were).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

NJ is where the digital media / archive folks from the NBA called/contacted me from

Yeah. If they contacted you for footage....that's a bad sign. I think Frescobadli pretty much summed it up (hell, even VHS, unless in the right environment, starts deteriorating).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

lol I am, but I just started up:

http://ihaveplanet.com/Users/User.aspx?User=1848944

I probably should acquire more games, but I just watch everything else on YouTube, or download the torrents and delete them after watching.

Would be incredible if he can find something, anything really. Thanks for looking out. I think CavsFTW had mentioned that from his understanding, the only other footage out there is from small clips or highlight videos (a lot of papers back in the day had advertisements for broadcasts of special footage in theaters, some even offered home video, but I can't imagine what the formats, were).

For sure. I hope PG and his sources are legit - sounds almost too good to be true. :lol

[Round Mound]

Shaq is the Greatest Ballhandling Big Man of All Time and Was More Skilled 1 on 1 Than Wilt. Wilt Though, Created The Fadeway Bankshot and Had Excellent Touch. Offensively Shaq Was Better But Defensively Wilt Was Much Better.

[LAZERUSS]

Shaq is the Greatest Ballhandling Big Man of All Time and Was More Skilled 1 on 1 Than Wilt. Wilt Though, Created The Fadeway Bankshot and Had Excellent Touch. Offensively Shaq Was Better But Defensively Wilt Was Much Better.

I don't think anyone can watch footage of a 60-64 Wilt, and honestly believe that Shaq was more skilled than Chamberlain. That Wilt had legitimate range up to 15 ft, and made a sizeable amount of his shots from between 10-12 feet.

In fact, a college Wilt had very good range, and was a decent FT shooter (even his form was better.)

[Round Mound]

I don't think anyone can watch footage of a 60-64 Wilt, and honestly believe that Shaq was more skilled than Chamberlain. That Wilt had legitimate range up to 15 ft, and made a sizeable amount of his shots from between 10-12 feet.

In fact, a college Wilt had very good range, and was a decent FT shooter (even his form was better.)

[B]Wish There Was More Footage of Prime Wilt in the 60s. Dude Had Great Touch and Invented The Fadeway Bank Shot. Defensively Wilt Was Much Better But Shaq

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Wish There Was More Footage of Prime Wilt in the 60s. Dude Had Great Touch and Invented The Fadeway Bank Shot. Defensively Wilt Was Much Better But Shaq

[Round Mound]

BTW, I agree with some of what you posted above. Shaq didn't waste his energy with 10 footers. He would either back his defender down, or kick out, and repost even closer to the basket.

I am not sure the NBA would have allowed Wilt to use his size and strength like that, though. They were already making rules to limit his dominance at almost every turn (although very few had any effect.)

Wilt Was TOO Nice. If He Was Allowed To Bully Like Shaq Did, It Would Have Been Laughable.

[rlsmooth775]

No one here even saw wilt play highlights dont count

[CavaliersFTW]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Wish There Was More Footage of Prime Wilt in the 60s. Dude Had Great Touch and Invented The Fadeway Bank Shot. Defensively Wilt Was Much Better But Shaq

[CavaliersFTW]

No one here even saw wilt play highlights dont count
Let the grown ups talk, go back outside and pretend you're Kobe and Lebron on your driveway hoop.