Kareem's prime and peak?

[fpliii]

When did his begin in your opinion, and when did it end? Which year was his offensive peak? Defensive peak?

Right now I'm going with his prime being from his rookie season through 80, but I think the case can be made for it lasting through 81 (Moses was just a tough matchup for him in the playoffs) or 82. From everything I read, that's the final possible season it could be.

I have 77 as his peak on both ends, but I think 71, 72, 74, and 80 (probably not defensively, though) can be argued as well.

[fpliii]

Hm, actually maybe including 82 isn't reasonable.

[LAZERUSS]

When did his begin in your opinion, and when did it end? Which year was his offensive peak? Defensive peak?

Right now I'm going with his prime being from his rookie season through 80, but I think the case can be made for it lasting through 81 (Moses was just a tough matchup for him in the playoffs) or 82. From everything I read, that's the final possible season it could be.

I have 77 as his peak on both ends, but I think 71, 72, 74, and 80 (probably not defensively, though) can be argued as well.

In terms of absolute offensive and defensive domination... from mid-way thru his 69-70 season, thru that post-season, his entire 70-71 season, including the post-season, and his 71-72 regular season. Aside from Wilt thru the mid-to-late 60's; Moses from '79 thru '83; and Shaq from the late 90's and into the early 00's, KAJ's run was the most impressive ever by a big man.

[fpliii]

In terms of absolute offensive and defensive domination... from mid-way thru his 69-70 season, thru that post-season, his entire 70-71 season, including the post-season, and his 71-72 regular season. Aside from Wilt thru the mid-to-late 60's; Moses from '79 thru '83; and Shaq from the late 90's and into the early 00's, KAJ's run was the most impressive ever by a big man.
When do you think his prime (not just peak) ended?

Also, what do you feel caused him to decline? Over-dependence on the hookshot? Putting on mass? Loss of mobility in general?

[LAZERUSS]

When do you think his prime (not just peak) ended?

Also, what do you feel caused him to decline? Over-dependence on the hookshot? Putting on mass? Loss of mobility in general?

Honestly, CavsFan has footage of a college Kareem, and then footage of his very first NBA game. He is running ALL OVER the court in that footage. He was getting his skyhook off much quicker, and with more elevation, too.

Keep in mind that KAJ, as a SOPH, at UCLA, was probably already a top-5 NBA center. And by the end of his rookie season, he was the league's best player.

But, by about 72-73, he had become much more methodical. And the league slowly started catching up to him. He was no longer just trashing the NBA for weeks at a time.

Again, just check out Milwaukee's defensive rankings in the early 70's. He was anchoring the best defense in the league.

Offensively, he was routinely putting up 40 and 50 point games on Cowens, Lanier, Reed, and even Wilt, in the early 70's.


Obviously, he was still a GREAT player the entire decade of the 70's, but for some reason, he lacked motivation. Yes, he could come out a man possessed, and pour in games of 48 or 50 against Walton, but then he would hang 20 on some stumblebum in a loss. His team's were vast underachievers in the latter half of the 70's, too....in a very weak NBA overall.

I have long maintained that had Magic not arrived in '79, that Kareem would have retired around the mid-80's, and would have been labeled a massive underachiever.

[fpliii]

Honestly, CavsFan has footage of a college Kareem, and then footage of his very first NBA game. He is running ALL OVER the court in that footage. He was getting his skyhook off much quicker, and with more elevation, too.

Keep in mind that KAJ, as a SOPH, at UCLA, was probably already a top-5 NBA center. And by the end of his rookie season, he was the league's best player.

But, by about 72-73, he had become much more methodical. And the league slowly started catching up to him. He was no longer just trashing the NBA for weeks at a time.

Again, just check out Milwaukee's defensive rankings in the early 70's. He was anchoring the best defense in the league.

Offensively, he was routinely putting up 40 and 50 point games on Cowens, Lanier, Reed, and even Wilt, in the early 70's.


Obviously, he was still a GREAT player the entire decade of the 70's, but for some reason, he lacked motivation. Yes, he could come out a man possessed, and pour in games of 48 or 50 against Walton, but then he would hang 20 on some stumblebum in a loss. His team's were vast underachievers in the latter half of the 70's, too....in a very weak NBA overall.

I have long maintained that had Magic not arrived in '79, that Kareem would have retired around the mid-80's, and would have been labeled a massive underachiever.

Your raise some good points (I'm actually interested in hearing what PHILA has to say, since he recently watched a lot of Kareem tape for producing shot charts). Kareem got into some of this in his first autobiography. I'll need to reread it soon, it's difficult to parse some of it out from some of the stuff about his personal life (which, while interesting, isn't relevant for this discussion).

I'm actually curious about your thoughts regarding a hypothetical. I posted it to RealGM, but didn't ask here:


What if LA never trades K. Washington, D. Chaney in 77-78?

Both Kermit Washington and Don Chaney were great defenders, and in one of his books Kareem suggests that trading both worsened their playoff fortunes.

Suppose they stay in LA for the durations of their careers (Kermit retired after 81-82, Chaney after 79-80). Here are their results those seasons:

77-78 - 45-37, 5th seed, lose 2-1 in West first round to the Sonics (would have both)
78-79 - 47-35, 5th seed, beat Nuggets 2-1 in West first round, lose 4-1 in West semis to the Sonics (would have both)
79-80 - 60-22, 1st seed, beat Suns 4-1 in West semis, beat Sonics 4-1 in WCF, beat Sixers 4-2 for title (would have both)
80-81 - 54-28, 3rd seed, lose 2-1 in West first round to the Rockets (would have Washington)
81-82 - 57-25, 1st seed, beat Suns 4-0 in West semis, beat Spurs 4-0 in WCF, beat Sixers 4-2 for title (would have Washington)

In the one season they had both guys (EDIT: Kermit Washington missed the entire playoffs, thanks ShaqAttack for pointing this out):

76-77 - 53-29, 1st seed, beat Warriors 4-3 in West semis, lose to Blazers 4-0 in WCF.

What changes?

[ssginc]

You could argue Jabbar's prime and peak ran through 81

[fpliii]

Here's the Q-and-A with PHILA (goes by Dipper 13 on the other board:)





Just wondering, from the sample you used, how different were Bucks and Lakers Kareem?

With the Lakers he seemed to have a stronger base and was more on "cruise control", in terms of the game coming so easy to him at that point. With the Bucks he was quicker off the dribble and didn't rely on the hook shot as much as his later years, like 1980. Game 5 of the Finals that year is one of the all time underrated performances.



Do you think Bucks Kareem (71-74) was a better player than Lakers Kareem (75-80)?

Defensively his Bucks years looked better, and offensively I take the 1977 or 1980 version. This may be an incomplete answer since much of the Bucks footage is incomplete. I believe 1974 is up there as well for an overall peak season, but it is impossible to say with so little game footage.

[LAZERUSS]

Your raise some good points (I'm actually interested in hearing what PHILA has to say, since he recently watched a lot of Kareem tape for producing shot charts). Kareem got into some of this in his first autobiography. I'll need to reread it soon, it's difficult to parse some of it out from some of the stuff about his personal life (which, while interesting, isn't relevant for this discussion).

I'm actually curious about your thoughts regarding a hypothetical. I posted it to RealGM, but didn't ask here:

As much as I believe that KAJ started coasting from the mid-70's on, he was still the best player in the league for much of it. He just wasn't the dominant KAJ that could put up 40 points right after rolling out of bed.

Obviously, he was playing with poor rosters in some years, but even with stacked rosters in the late 70's, and in a very weak league overall, he couldn't get his teams very far in the post-season. Blame it on chemistry issues, or what have you, but he was nowhere near as dominant as the early 70's KAJ by that time.

His 76-77 post-season was probably his greatest (but his regular season was nowhere near his play in the early 70's), but keep in mind that the Warriors were in a rapid decline, so you can take those numbers with a grain of salt. He did wipe the floor with Walton, but Portland had a better (and healthier) roster. I don't think a healthy Laker team beats them, though. The next year the Blazers just ran away from the league, until Walton was injured. They started out 50-10, and were miles ahead of the rest of the league. Interesting too, that a Washington team that went 44-38, won the title that season.

[Round Mound]

Prime: 69-82
Peak: 75-76

[fpliii]

Prime: 69-82
Peak: 75-76
I'm on the fence about 82. What makes you include it in his prime?

[LAZERUSS]

Prime: 69-82
Peak: 75-76

I don't see KAJ's peak as in 75-76...at all. Aside from rebounding (in a very weak season for rebounders), his numbers dropped across the board. And his 76-77 season, overall, was nowhere near his peak, either (although he did have a brilliant 11 game post-season run.)

Still, a ROOKIE KAJ just shredded the MVP Reed in the playoffs. Then he went on to have one of the greatest all-around seasons, including the post-season, in NBA history in '70-71. His production, per minute played, and against league average, was at an all-time high in '70-71, and then very close in the 71-72 regular season.

[fpliii]

I don't see KAJ's peak as in 75-76...at all. Aside from rebounding (in a very weak season for rebounders), his numbers dropped across the board. And his 76-77 season, overall, was nowhere near his peak, either (although he did have a brilliant 11 game post-season run.)

Still, a ROOKIE KAJ just shredded the MVP Reed in the playoffs. Then he went on to have one of the greatest all-around seasons, including the post-season, in NBA history in '70-71. His production, per minute played, and against league average, was at an all-time high in '70-71, and then very close in the 71-72 regular season.
BTW, I posted two quotes from PHILA above. I'm wondering about your thoughts on the difference between Bucks/Lakers Kareem stylistically.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, I posted two quotes from PHILA above. I'm wondering about your thoughts on the difference between Bucks/Lakers Kareem stylistically.

Again, a Laker Kareem was much more methodical, and less athletic. His shooting skills were more rounded, but his loss of quickness hurt his offense. Now, don't get me wrong. Kareem was a great athlete up until perhaps 1980. But his quickness, mobility, and leaping ability declined from the mid-70's.

He was a much better TEAM defender on the Bucks, and probably a better passer, as well. But again, with his huge mobility and quickness edge over the vast majority of centers in the early 70's, he was just annihilating many of the same centers who would dramatically narrow the gap from the mid-70's on.

[fpliii]

Again, a Laker Kareem was much more methodical, and less athletic. His shooting skills were more rounded, but his loss of quickness hurt his offense. Now, don't get me wrong. Kareem was a great athlete up until perhaps 1980. But his quickness, mobility, and leaping ability declined from the mid-70's.

He was a much better TEAM defender on the Bucks, and probably a better passer, as well. But again, with his huge mobility and quickness edge over the vast majority of centers in the early 70's, he was just annihilating many of the same centers who would dramatically narrow the gap from the mid-70's on.
Cool, thanks for the response.

This is OT, but I'm wondering what your thoughts on Lanier are in general? Also, specifically regarding his defense, did he play much of it outside of 73-74? This article:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=860&dat=19740201&id=qVZUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=244DAAAAIBAJ&pg=5106,1636156

suggests that he was pretty good on that end that season (evidently he worked with Russ in the summer of 73).

[LAZERUSS]

Cool, thanks for the response.

This is OT, but I'm wondering what your thoughts on Lanier are in general? Also, specifically regarding his defense, did he play much of it outside of 73-74? This article:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=860&dat=19740201&id=qVZUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=244DAAAAIBAJ&pg=5106,1636156

suggests that he was pretty good on that end that season (evidently he worked with Russ in the summer of 73).

I honestly never considered him a great defensive center, BUT, that particular season does show up in this category...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

Now offensively, he was a skilled shooter, with a soft touch, for such a big man. He reminded me of a bigger Willis Reed.

By the mid-70's on, he gave KAJ all he could handle.

[fpliii]

I honestly never considered him a great defensive center, BUT, that particular season does show up in this category...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

Now offensively, he was a skilled shooter, with a soft touch, for such a big man. He reminded me of a bigger Willis Reed.

By the mid-70's on, he gave KAJ all he could handle.
Cool, thanks again.

While we're on the subject of Reed, can you break down his offense/defense for me? I haven't done too much research on him, yet.

[LAZERUSS]

Cool, thanks again.

While we're on the subject of Reed, can you break down his offense/defense for me? I haven't done too much research on him, yet.

Watch footage of Zach Randolph. Nearly identical, although I would give Reed an edge up to 15-18 feet.

[fpliii]

Watch footage of Zach Randolph. Nearly identical, although I would give Reed an edge up to 15-18 feet.
Defense too? So I guess the excellent team defense on those Knicks squads was largely due to Frazier and DeBusschere?

[LAZERUSS]

Defense too? So I guess the excellent team defense on those Knicks squads was largely due to Frazier and DeBusschere?

Reed was load on defense. At least in the paint. But you are right, those Knick teams from the late 60's thru the early 70's were as great a TEAM defense, as there was. Everyone of their starters were solid defenders, in both individual, and team defense. Very similar to the Celtics of the 60's, but of course, Reed was not capable of covering as much of the floor as Russell was (no one was.)

[Round Mound]

There Are Some Rally Awsoume Kareem 70s Game Resumes In Youtube. The Dude Is The Peak of Finess Offensive Play For A Center :bowdown:

[fpliii]

Good stuff, thanks again. I'll reread the Kareem book when I have a chance, and maybe post some quotes.

I also want to start dumping articles from the Milwaukee Journal and Sentinel for nbastats.net for Kareem's seasons soon. Problem is, both papers are on Google News Archives, which aren't very screen-capture friendly:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19710604&id=EHskAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gygEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7297,1848046

[LAZERUSS]

Good stuff, thanks again. I'll reread the Kareem book when I have a chance, and maybe post some quotes.

I also want to start dumping articles from the Milwaukee Journal and Sentinel for nbastats.net for Kareem's seasons soon. Problem is, both papers are on Google News Archives, which aren't very screen-capture friendly:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19710604&id=EHskAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gygEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7297,1848046

Your research is second to none...

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Anyone that is interested in NBA history, needs to thank you.

[LAZERUSS]

To add to the OP...

After KAJ's 70-71 season, I honestly believed that he would go on to challenge some of Wilt's records. And by late 71-72, I was convinced that he would. But, something happened to him in the first round of the '72 playoffs against Nate, and then in the last four games of the '72 WCF's, and from that point on, he no longer seemed invincible. And, he slowly seemed to decline. Granted, a slow decline from where he had been was still better than almost everyone else playing the game..at least until Moses came along. But, he just seemed to lose motivation, or focus. In fact, this lack of intensity was even a running joke in the movie 'Airplane.'

[SHAQisGOAT]

Prime: 70-81
Peak: around 1977


Still really good after 1981, just couldn't play as many minutes as before, still wrecked shit in the post-season, still had one of the GOAT Finals performances in 1985, at 38. The longevity that man had is just amazing, with a top5 peak :bowdown: :bowdown:

[dankok8]

I couldn't disagree more with LAZERUSS. Statistical peak does NOT equal actual peak ability. Jordan put up his best stats in 87-88, Wilt in 61-62, and Lebron in 09-10. I strongly believe none of those 3 guys peaked in the aforementioned seasons.

Lakers' Kareem circa 1977 still had at least 90% of his early athleticism but he was a much more polished player. He had the skyhook perfected with both hands, a mid-range J up to 15 feet, and he had 20 lbs more of muscle to bang down low. His edge in physical strength and experience made him even more devastating in the postseason against elite defenders. In 1980 he lost a little more athleticism but he was till a beast.

Peak: 76-77
Prime: 69-70 to 80-81

[Lebron23]

I have a question. Why did Kareem won an MVP while playing on a 42 or 45 win team??

[fpliii]

I have a question. Why did Kareem won an MVP while playing on a 42 or 45 win team??
Voting was done by the players through 79-80. The sportswriters who took over in 80-81 had different criteria, most likely. Though it's worth noting that The Sporting News (TSN) NBA Player of the Year actually continued for a while, and was voted on by the players through 01, and again from 09-11 (02-08 front office personnel voted, and TSN has been absorbed by AOL since then and the award no longer exists):

81 Julius Erving
82 Moses Malone
83 Moses Malone
84 Bernard King
85 Larry Bird
86 Larry Bird
87 Magic Johnson
88 Michael Jordan
89 Michael Jordan
90 Charles Barkley
91 Michael Jordan
92 Michael Jordan
93 Charles Barkley
94 Hakeem Olajuwon
95 David Robinson
96 Michael Jordan
97 Michael Jordan
98 Michael Jordan
99 Karl Malone
00 Shaquille O'Neal
01 Allen Iverson
02 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
03 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
04 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
05 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
06 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
07 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
08 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
09 LeBron James
10 LeBron James
11 Derrick Rose
12 Award Discontinued
13 Award Discontinued

Prior to 79-80 they had the same picks for MVP, except in 72-73 (players picked Tiny Archibald for TSN POY, and Dave Cowens for NBA MVP, perhaps due to differences in polling).

[Lebron23]

Voting was done by the players through 79-80. The sportswriters who took over in 80-81 had different criteria, most likely. Though it's worth noting that The Sporting News (TSN) NBA Player of the Year actually continued for a while, and was voted on by the players through 01, and again from 09-11 (02-08 front office personnel voted, and TSN has been absorbed by AOL since then and the award no longer exists):

81 Julius Erving
82 Moses Malone
83 Moses Malone
84 Bernard King
85 Larry Bird
86 Larry Bird
87 Magic Johnson
88 Michael Jordan
89 Michael Jordan
90 Charles Barkley
91 Michael Jordan
92 Michael Jordan
93 Charles Barkley
94 Hakeem Olajuwon
95 David Robinson
96 Michael Jordan
97 Michael Jordan
98 Michael Jordan
99 Karl Malone
00 Shaquille O'Neal
01 Allen Iverson
02 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
03 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
04 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
05 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
06 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
07 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
08 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
09 LeBron James
10 LeBron James
11 Derrick Rose
12 Award Discontinued
13 Award Discontinued

Prior to 79-80 they had the same picks for MVP, except in 72-73 (players picked Tiny Archibald for TSN POY, and Dave Cowens for NBA MVP, perhaps due to differences in polling).

Good Posts..

[SexSymbol]

Coming from a NBA fan with barely any games of Kareem seen in his resume:
Was Kareem soft? I saw it being implied in the movie Airplane. Those absurd comedies usually portray the general opinion very well

[CavaliersFTW]

Prime: 69-82
Peak: 75-76
This is reasonable

[Pointguard]

Honestly, CavsFan has footage of a college Kareem, and then footage of his very first NBA game. He is running ALL OVER the court in that footage. He was getting his skyhook off much quicker, and with more elevation, too.

Obviously, he was still a GREAT player the entire decade of the 70's, but for some reason, he lacked motivation. Yes, he could come out a man possessed, and pour in games of 48 or 50 against Walton, but then he would hang 20 on some stumblebum in a loss. His team's were vast underachievers in the latter half of the 70's, too....in a very weak NBA overall.

I have long maintained that had Magic not arrived in '79, that Kareem would have retired around the mid-80's, and would have been labeled a massive underachiever.

I second everything said here. He had bounce and wasn't trying to conserve any energy in his first four years. He was covering large portions of the floor defensively as well. When those two things are at a alltime high your peak is somewhere in there. Kareem had strongly hinted at retirement I think in '78 but once Magic came he was like I'll stay 8 more years.

[K Xerxes]

In terms of absolute offensive and defensive domination... from mid-way thru his 69-70 season, thru that post-season, his entire 70-71 season, including the post-season, and his 71-72 regular season. Aside from Wilt thru the mid-to-late 60's; Moses from '79 thru '83; and Shaq from the late 90's and into the early 00's, KAJ's run was the most impressive ever by a big man.

It's clear to me that you're suggesting as early a peak as possible for Kareem in order to make (old) Wilt's accomplishments against Kareem seem even more impressive. I also find it funny how you say you were there to watch it in the 70s yet ALL you ever do is whore over stats.

How is anyone ever supposed to take your opinion seriously when the agenda is obvious?

[CavaliersFTW]

Kareem in High School and his Sophomore NCAA season:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfkalgtZraE

[Helix]

It's clear to me that you're suggesting as early a peak as possible for Kareem in order to make (old) Wilt's accomplishments against Kareem seem even more impressive. I also find it funny how you say you were there to watch it in the 70s yet ALL you ever do is whore over stats.

How is anyone ever supposed to take your opinion seriously when the agenda is obvious?


Well, I WAS there and I saw it. Kareem may have been a better, more polished player later on in the 70's, but without question, he WAS at his most dominant in the early 70's.

[bizil]

Might sound crazy to some, but Kareem has a case for his prime being going to 37 or 38 years old. He was still first team All NBA in 1986 when u still had a very good maybe great crop of centers around. He was Finals MVP at 38 years of age. I concede he wasn't as dominant a shot blocker or rebounder though. But on the flip side, the Lakers had EPIC DEEP ASS TEAMS! So Kareem over time didn't have to do as much as before. But even at 37 and 38, u could make the case that Kareem was still in backend prime status. So were are talking in 85 and 86. In a sense, its how Kobe was in backend prime status last year.

[Y2ktors]

Might sound crazy to some, but Kareem has a case for his prime being going to 37 or 38 years old. He was still first team All NBA in 1986 when u still had a very good maybe great crop of centers around. He was Finals MVP at 38 years of age. I concede he wasn't as dominant a shot blocker or rebounder though. But on the flip side, the Lakers had EPIC DEEP ASS TEAMS! So Kareem over time didn't have to do as much as before. But even at 37 and 38, u could make the case that Kareem was still in backend prime status. So were are talking in 85 and 86. In a sense, its how Kobe was in backend prime status last year.

I think that Kareem's prime ended in 1986. But he had a hell of a run as far as prime years are concerned.

[LAZERUSS]

It's clear to me that you're suggesting as early a peak as possible for Kareem in order to make (old) Wilt's accomplishments against Kareem seem even more impressive. I also find it funny how you say you were there to watch it in the 70s yet ALL you ever do is whore over stats.

How is anyone ever supposed to take your opinion seriously when the agenda is obvious?

Of course you ignore REALITY.

In KAJ's SECOND season, he played 40.3 mpg, averaged 31.7 ppg (easily leading the league), 16.0 rpg, and shot .577 from the field, which BTW, was his LARGEST margin against the league average (.449) of his entire career.)
Milwaukee was 65-12 near the end of the season, and coasted to a 66-16 record, and their +12.2 ppg differential ranks just behind the '72 Lakers and '96 Bulls, who were at +12.3.

Defense? The Bucks finished in 3rd in scoring defense (they also led the NBA in scoring offense), and not only that, they LED the NBA in FG% against...at .424. Which was remarkable, in itself, except that they also led the NBA in offensive FG%, at .509. That .085 differential is the largest in NBA history.

In the playoffs, they went 12-2, and their scoring differential of +14.5 ppg is the largest in NBA history. Oh, and BTW, they led the NBA in BOTH scoring, and ppg allowed (their 94.6 ppg allowed was WAY ahead of the league.) They also led that post-season in FG% and FG% allowed, and get this... by a .497 to .395 margin.

Granted, his post-season numbers were not career bests, BUT, he faced Thurmond in the first round, Chamberlain in the second round (right there are the second and third greatest defensive centers in NBA history), and Unseld in the Finals. And how about those Finals. 27.0 ppg, 18.5 rpg, and a .605 FG%...in leading his team to a sweeping win.

And keep in mind that all of this was coming off of his rookie season, in which he tore the league apart in the second half of that season, and then wiped the floor with league MVP Reed in the playoffs. His playoff totals in his ROOKIE season? 35.2 ppg, 16.8 rpg, 4.1 apg, and a .567 FG%.

Then, he really exploded in his THIRD season. He averaged 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, 4.6 apg, and shot .574 from the field. During that season he was ringing up Cowens for 45 ppg in their H2H's, Chamberlain for 40 ppg in their H2H's, Lanier for 35 ppg, and just shelled anyone not named Thurmond.

His Bucks finished 63-19 in 71-72, and had a +11.1 ppg differential. They also led the league in FG%, at .498. Defensively, the ranked second in ppg allowed, BUT, they ran away with the FG% allowed mark, at .420.


However, KAJ flopped in the post-season. Thurmond easily outscored and outshot him, but Milwaukee's huge personnel edge easily overcame it. But, in the WCF's, Chamberlain chopped him down, especially in the last four games of that series, (when he held KAJ to just a .414 FG%...and was knocking the "unblockable" skyhook out of the gym.)

From that point, he started a slow decline. He overall numbers slowly declined, and the same centers he was crushing in those seasons, narrowed the gap considerably. In his biggest games, he choked,...plain-and-simple.

Furthermore, the Bucks gladly shipped him out after a miserable 74-75 season. He was traded to a Laker team that was on a rapid decline since Wilt retired. They had fallen all the way down to 30-52, just two years after Wilt had retired. Now, here was Kareem's opportunity to REALLY take off. If ever anyone was going to challenge Chamberlain's records, this was it.

It never materialized. KAJ went thru the motions, and his team didn't even make the playoffs. True, he did lead the league in rebounding,...but even that was deceptive. Gone were the great rebounders of the 60's and early 70's. He was barely beating out the 6-9 Cowens, and then well behind, came the 6-7 Unseld, the 6-7 Silas, and Sam Lacey.

Think about this: In KAJ's 71-72 season, he played 44.2 mpg, averaged 34.8 ppg, and shot .574 from the field...on a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential. In his 75-76 season, and playing on a lowly team... 41.2 mpg, 27.7 ppg, and a .529 FG%. What happened? Where were his 40-50 point games that season? BTW, McAdoo averaged 31.5 ppg that season (and 34.5 ppg the season before.) How come McAdoo could do it, but Kareem couldn't come close?

I have seen other's here claim that his 76-77 season was his PEAK. Just ridiculous! That theory was based solely on his 11 post-season games. During the regular season, he only averaged 26.2 ppg, which was third, and well behind Maravich's 31.1 ppg. He could only average 13.3 rpg (Walton led the league at 14.4 rpg...and in only 34.8 mpg.) Oh, and a very young Moses was right behind, at 13.1 rpg. That would be the last time KAJ came within miles of Moses in rebounding. He did lead the league in FG%, at .579, but this came in a league that shot .465 overall, so it was well behind his .128 differential in 70-71.

Granted, he had a brilliant post-season. He averaged 34.6 ppg, 17.7 rpg, and shot .607 from the field. And he just slaughtered Walton in the WCF's. But, alas, his 53-29 team was swept by Walton's 49-33 Blazers.

But let's get real here...that was in 11 post-season games. Where was his 35 ppg, 17 rpg, 5 apg regular season numbers of 71-72?

And from that point on, he was no longer even the best center in the game. Moses quickly rose to power, and not only did Moses outscore and outrebound KAJ in league averages every season until late in the 80's...he just killed him H2H...especially in rebounding.

KAJ won an MVP in 79-80, despite the fact that Moses was the better player, and downright crushed him H2H. If anything Magic should have won it. It was MAGIC who took over an under-achieving mess, and immediately led them to a 60-22 record, and a world title. MAGIC did win a well-deserved FMVP.

In any case, a 79-80 MVP Kareem averaged 24.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 4.5 apg, 2.9 bpg, and shot a career high, .604 from the field (BUT, it came in a league that shot .488...again, still behind his 70-71 differential.) BTW, Moses averaged 25.8 ppg, and 14.5 rpg that season (and the year before, he averaged 24.8 ppg and 17.6 rpg.) He would just destroy KAJ from that point on, including the post-season (when he not only crushed KAJ in scoring and rebounding...but his teams went 6-1 against KAJ's.)

IMHO, KAJ's PEAK was from midway in his ROOKIE season (69-70), thru the playoffs, thru the entire 70-71 season, including the playoffs, and then thru his 71-72 regular season. After that he declined and the NUMBERS prove it. Having said that, his PRIME was from 69-70 thru 80-81. But downhill nearly every season after 71-72.

[bizil]

I think that Kareem's prime ended in 1986. But he had a hell of a run as far as prime years are concerned.

I agree! I think 86 is the latest u can say Kareem was in his prime. Some think earlier due to less minutes as well as rebounding and defense. But in terms of being dominant on the scoring shit (the most premium asset in all of bball), Kareem was STILL arguably the most dominant center in the world. Moses was right there too. And u had the young studs in Ewing and Dream. But I think Kareem was still the most feared. And Cap was splitting the pie with Magic, Worthy, Scott, and McAdoo in those later prime years. In '85 he averaged 22.5 PPG! In '86 23.4 PPG on a stacked team. Cap was STILL the primary offensive weapon on the Lakers at 37 and 38 years of age!! Winning rings!!

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem in High School and his Sophomore NCAA season:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfkalgtZraE

FAR more mobile and athletic, than a mid-70's Kareem.

Great stuff BTW.

[bizil]

I terms of prime and peak, I view it as prime, peak, and backend prime years. Now granted in the cases of T-Mac, Grant Hill, Walton or a Penny, we don't have as many years to judge. But for guys like Kareem, Stockton, and Malone, when they play less minutes, its more maintenance. All three were durable as hell. All three played less minutes later on due to coaches wanted to preserve them for the playoffs. But in reality SOME OF THOSE YEARS were still backend prime kind of years. In particular with Kareem. He had such a loaded team that he could play less minutes and have his defense and rebounding take a hit. But he was still the dominant scorer on the team, making All Star games, making 1st All NBA, winning Finals MVP, and winning rings at 38 years old.

From his rookie year till 38 years of age, Cap was 1st or 2nd team All NBA EVERY YEAR!! That's the definition of backend prime domination. Now the remaining years after you could say Kareem was outta his prime. MJ with the Wizards was outta his prime. MJ in 98 was dominating in his backend prime years though. Once guys fall outta their peak, it doesn't mean they necessarily are outta their prime. Now some guys fall off the mountain after they peak don't have backend prime kind of years. Other guys pimp stroll back down the mountain into immortality!! :pimp:

[La Frescobaldi]

Well, I WAS there and I saw it. Kareem may have been a better, more polished player later on in the 70's, but without question, he WAS at his most dominant in the early 70's.

Me too ~ this exactly. Watching even Lakers was no fun at all when the Bucks showed up in LA. Like watching a nightmare sometimes with Big O and Kareem.

KAJ would silence the arena crowd in those days like ol' Jimmy Page would when he pulled up a stool and sat down with his acoustic guitar. The thunder and then the whisper.
Everybody just awestruck by the greatness and the glory

[SHAQisGOAT]

This ***** Lazeruss has plenty of alt's. That said, he does everything to prop up Wilt and goes off on stats like a true stat geek, must be like 12.

[kobeef24]

This ***** Lazeruss has plenty of alt's. That said, he does everything to prop up Wilt and goes off on stats like a true stat geek, must be like 12.

This is actually a pretty good thread. Quit ruining it. He didn't even bring Wilt up unless it had something to do with Kareem playing well.

[Pointguard]

The only problem I have with a prime after 1977 is that he began taking short cuts, cut backs on his total game, and being selective on how he is going to participate is rarely seen in any player's prime. Prime is when you still have the energy to do what you think you should be doing at a high level and show enthusiasm for the complete game you had in your possession at your peak. I think Kareem was ecstatic about the game when Magic showed up but he still wasn't hustling and was no longer playing the complete game he had five years earlier. Magic allowed him to polish his game and do the things he liked most with ease but I wouldn't include that in his prime.

[moe94]

This ***** Lazeruss has plenty of alt's. That said, he does everything to prop up Wilt and goes off on stats like a true stat geek, must be like 12.

Why are you so angry? I've never seen him talk shit to anyone yet you rag on him any chance you got.

[The Iron Fist]

Of course you ignore REALITY.

In KAJ's SECOND season, he played 40.3 mpg, averaged 31.7 ppg (easily leading the league), 16.0 rpg, and shot .577 from the field, which BTW, was his LARGEST margin against the league average (.449) of his entire career.)
Milwaukee was 65-12 near the end of the season, and coasted to a 66-16 record, and their +12.2 ppg differential ranks just behind the '72 Lakers and '96 Bulls, who were at +12.3.

Defense? The Bucks finished in 3rd in scoring defense (they also led the NBA in scoring offense), and not only that, they LED the NBA in FG% against...at .424. Which was remarkable, in itself, except that they also led the NBA in offensive FG%, at .509. That .085 differential is the largest in NBA history.

In the playoffs, they went 12-2, and their scoring differential of +14.5 ppg is the largest in NBA history. Oh, and BTW, they led the NBA in BOTH scoring, and ppg allowed (their 94.6 ppg allowed was WAY ahead of the league.) They also led that post-season in FG% and FG% allowed, and get this... by a .497 to .395 margin.

Granted, his post-season numbers were not career bests, BUT, he faced Thurmond in the first round, Chamberlain in the second round (right there are the second and third greatest defensive centers in NBA history), and Unseld in the Finals. And how about those Finals. 27.0 ppg, 18.5 rpg, and a .605 FG%...in leading his team to a sweeping win.

And keep in mind that all of this was coming off of his rookie season, in which he tore the league apart in the second half of that season, and then wiped the floor with league MVP Reed in the playoffs. His playoff totals in his ROOKIE season? 35.2 ppg, 16.8 rpg, 4.1 apg, and a .567 FG%.

Then, he really exploded in his THIRD season. He averaged 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, 4.6 apg, and shot .574 from the field. During that season he was ringing up Cowens for 45 ppg in their H2H's, Chamberlain for 40 ppg in their H2H's, Lanier for 35 ppg, and just shelled anyone not named Thurmond.

His Bucks finished 63-19 in 71-72, and had a +11.1 ppg differential. They also led the league in FG%, at .498. Defensively, the ranked second in ppg allowed, BUT, they ran away with the FG% allowed mark, at .420.


However, KAJ flopped in the post-season. Thurmond easily outscored and outshot him, but Milwaukee's huge personnel edge easily overcame it. But, in the WCF's, Chamberlain chopped him down, especially in the last four games of that series, (when he held KAJ to just a .414 FG%...and was knocking the "unblockable" skyhook out of the gym.)

From that point, he started a slow decline. He overall numbers slowly declined, and the same centers he was crushing in those seasons, narrowed the gap considerably. In his biggest games, he choked,...plain-and-simple.

Furthermore, the Bucks gladly shipped him out after a miserable 74-75 season. He was traded to a Laker team that was on a rapid decline since Wilt retired. They had fallen all the way down to 30-52, just two years after Wilt had retired. Now, here was Kareem's opportunity to REALLY take off. If ever anyone was going to challenge Chamberlain's records, this was it.

It never materialized. KAJ went thru the motions, and his team didn't even make the playoffs. True, he did lead the league in rebounding,...but even that was deceptive. Gone were the great rebounders of the 60's and early 70's. He was barely beating out the 6-9 Cowens, and then well behind, came the 6-7 Unseld, the 6-7 Silas, and Sam Lacey.

Think about this: In KAJ's 71-72 season, he played 44.2 mpg, averaged 34.8 ppg, and shot .574 from the field...on a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential. In his 75-76 season, and playing on a lowly team... 41.2 mpg, 27.7 ppg, and a .529 FG%. What happened? Where were his 40-50 point games that season? BTW, McAdoo averaged 31.5 ppg that season (and 34.5 ppg the season before.) How come McAdoo could do it, but Kareem couldn't come close?

I have seen other's here claim that his 76-77 season was his PEAK. Just ridiculous! That theory was based solely on his 11 post-season games. During the regular season, he only averaged 26.2 ppg, which was third, and well behind Maravich's 31.1 ppg. He could only average 13.3 rpg (Walton led the league at 14.4 rpg...and in only 34.8 mpg.) Oh, and a very young Moses was right behind, at 13.1 rpg. That would be the last time KAJ came within miles of Moses in rebounding. He did lead the league in FG%, at .579, but this came in a league that shot .465 overall, so it was well behind his .128 differential in 70-71.

Granted, he had a brilliant post-season. He averaged 34.6 ppg, 17.7 rpg, and shot .607 from the field. And he just slaughtered Walton in the WCF's. But, alas, his 53-29 team was swept by Walton's 49-33 Blazers.

But let's get real here...that was in 11 post-season games. Where was his 35 ppg, 17 rpg, 5 apg regular season numbers of 71-72?

And from that point on, he was no longer even the best center in the game. Moses quickly rose to power, and not only did Moses outscore and outrebound KAJ in league averages every season until late in the 80's...he just killed him H2H...especially in rebounding.

KAJ won an MVP in 79-80, despite the fact that Moses was the better player, and downright crushed him H2H. If anything Magic should have won it. It was MAGIC who took over an under-achieving mess, and immediately led them to a 60-22 record, and a world title. MAGIC did win a well-deserved FMVP.

In any case, a 79-80 MVP Kareem averaged 24.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 4.5 apg, 2.9 bpg, and shot a career high, .604 from the field (BUT, it came in a league that shot .488...again, still behind his 70-71 differential.) BTW, Moses averaged 25.8 ppg, and 14.5 rpg that season (and the year before, he averaged 24.8 ppg and 17.6 rpg.) He would just destroy KAJ from that point on, including the post-season (when he not only crushed KAJ in scoring and rebounding...but his teams went 6-1 against KAJ's.)

IMHO, KAJ's PEAK was from midway in his ROOKIE season (69-70), thru the playoffs, thru the entire 70-71 season, including the playoffs, and then thru his 71-72 regular season. After that he declined and the NUMBERS prove it. Having said that, his PRIME was from 69-70 thru 80-81. But downhill nearly every season after 71-72.
Stopped reading here.

30-14-4-3.3 leading blocks is horrible?:biggums:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Why are you so angry? I've never seen him talk shit to anyone yet you rag on him any chance you got.

Who's angry? lol
That's ragging on him, to you? Go read some other posts around this forum then.:rolleyes:

The way he underrates Kareem (or Bird) to prop up Wilt (or Magic) is sickening really, with silly arguments and lies. No need for that.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Stopped reading here.

30-14-4-3.3 leading blocks is horrible?:biggums:

If it was Wilt he would've been drooling all over it.

Yea, the Bucks gladly ship him out. :facepalm

[Alan Ogg]

One way to visualize it:

http://i.imgur.com/vytXYME.jpg

And Kareem should have been MVP '72-'73. That's quite a stretch.

[moe94]

Who's angry? lol
That's ragging on him, to you? Go read some other posts around this forum then.:rolleyes:

The way he underrates Kareem (or Bird) to prop up Wilt (or Magic) is sickening really, with silly arguments and lies. No need for that.

I've seen you not even respond to him outside dissing him. If you can't argue, then don't argue. It's cool you feel the need to randomly call him out, but it's tired already. :confusedshrug:

[bizil]

One way to visualize it:

http://i.imgur.com/vytXYME.jpg

And Kareem should have been MVP '72-'73. That's quite a stretch.

That's epic as hell!! Even at 38 years old, he was a top 5 MVP candidate! Many say MJ is the GOAT and Mike deserves it no doubt! But if I'm doing a blind resume (no marketing impact or transcendant qualities included), Kareem could very well be the GOAT flat out!

[LAZERUSS]

Stopped reading here.

30-14-4-3.3 leading blocks is horrible?:biggums:



Furthermore, the Bucks gladly shipped him out after a miserable 74-75 season.

The Bucks went from a 59-23 team that lost a game seven in the Finals...to a 38-44 team that missed the playoffs.

Yes, a MISERABLE season.

[Odinn]

Kareem's prime was like Bird's and Duncan's. You can claim he was in his prime even his rookie season.

I'd say his prime ended in 1981-82 season. Yes, he was great until 1985-86 season but prime is much more about his own standarts instead of being a great player relative to the league.

His peak season was 1976-77 or 1979-80 season.
Do not listen to jlauber about it. His agenda is known in the outer space by now.

[Sarcastic]

I'm on the fence about 82. What makes you include it in his prime?


Because it makes it seem as if he carried Magic more in the beginning than he actually did.

[fpliii]

Kareem's prime was like Bird's and Duncan's. You can claim he was in his prime even his rookie season.

I'd say his prime enden in 1981-82 season. Yes, he was great until 1985-86 season but prime is much more about his own standarts instead of being a great player relative to the league.

His peak season was 1976-77 or 1979-80 season.
Do not listen to jlauber about it. His agenda is known in the outer space by now.
I think maybe jlauber's going a bit over the top about it, but I do think the mobility is a big deal (especially since Kareem mentioned it in his autobiography, I'll have to reread just to be sure of the wording). Maybe it's just not a huge deal though.

I'm still going with 76-77, but I think 73-74 could be his second best year maybe. Offensively 79-80 is definitely up there too.

[Odinn]

I think maybe jlauber's going a bit over the top about it, but I do think the mobility is a big deal (especially since Kareem mentioned it in his autobiography, I'll have to reread just to be sure of the wording). Maybe it's just not a huge deal though.

I'm still going with 76-77, but I think 73-74 could be his second best year maybe. Offensively 79-80 is definitely up there too.
jlauber's point is always about numbers. He doesn't talk about how Kareem played or aspects of his game. He won't be talking about how Kareem's offensive skillset changed due to physical change. That's why I dismissed his contributions.

Kareem's pyhsical evolution is like LeBron in a way. He sacrificed some of his mobility to get stronger.

73-74 season definetely one of his top 4, tho. I agree about 73-74 season being one of his best.

[fpliii]

jlauber's point is always about numbers. He doesn't talk about how Kareem played or aspects of his game. He won't be talking about how Kareem's offensive skillset changed due to physical change. That's why I dismissed his contributions.

Kareem's pyhsical evolution is like LeBron in a way. He sacrificed some of his mobility to get stronger.

73-74 season definetely one of his top 4, tho. I agree about 73-74 season being one of his best.
I wrote this up a while ago:


The defense is tough for Kareem. I'm taking a break from MJ/Russ and moving on to Cap, but here are his teams' relative DRtgs compared to the league average (minutes played in parentheses):

MIL
69 +2.2% (0)
70 -1.1% (3534)
71 -3.5% (3288)
72 -4.9% (3583)
73 -5.5% (3254)
74 -4.2% (3548)
75 +0.2% (2747)
76 +0.4% (0)

LAL
75 +2.3% (0)
76 +0.5% (3379)
77 -0.7% (3016)
78 -0.1% (2265)
79 -0.6% (3157)
80 -1.3% (3143)
81 -1.6% (2976)
82 -1.3% (2677)
83 +0.5% (2554)
84 -0.3% (2622)
85 -0.8% (2630)
86 -1.3% (2629)
87 -1.7% (2441)
88 -0.7% (2308)
89 -1.0% (1695)
90 -1.0% (0)

The first set of bolded years seem to be impressive, as do 80-82 (after which I don't feel comfortable assigning him too much credit/blame). 75-79 seem out of place here, though we can discount 75 due to injury. 76-79 don't seem what you'd expect based on his earlier career, but based on LAL in 75, maybe the rest of the team was awful defensively? I'll have to do more research, but the numbers seem odd. At the moment, I'm going with:

75 - injury
76 - getting used to the team
77,78,79 - had to anchor the offense, so didn't have enough energy to dedicate himself as much to defense; these numbers aren't terrible, but you'd expect more based on 71-74...maybe we have to take the split leagues/expansion into account, and those seasons overstate his defensive impact?

Anyhow, what do you guys think?
Was his defensive supporting cast that bad in LA (before they got Cooper, at least)? From my understanding, Kermit Washington and Don Chaney were actually quite good (see my hypothetical on page one of this thread).

I guess some of it was the merger.

[LAZERUSS]

I wrote this up a while ago:


Was his defensive supporting cast that bad in LA (before they got Cooper, at least)? From my understanding, Kermit Washington and Don Chaney were actually quite good (see my hypothetical on page one of this thread).

I guess some of it was the merger.

Kareem was a half-court defensive beast early in his career.

He slowed considerably after 72-73. He was still a good defender up until around 1980, but nowhere near the presence he had been early in his career.

[LAZERUSS]

jlauber's point is always about numbers. He doesn't talk about how Kareem played or aspects of his game. He won't be talking about how Kareem's offensive skillset changed due to physical change. That's why I dismissed his contributions.

Kareem's pyhsical evolution is like LeBron in a way. He sacrificed some of his mobility to get stronger.

73-74 season definetely one of his top 4, tho. I agree about 73-74 season being one of his best.

Yep. Let's go with your indepth knowledge of the game.

Sure, he slipped in every major category after 71-72, and wasn't even the best player in the game in the mid-70's (clearly McAdoo was), and was just blown away by Moses from '79 on...

but yes, he looked very good in those years.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[SHAQisGOAT]

I wrote this up a while ago:


Was his defensive supporting cast that bad in LA (before they got Cooper, at least)? From my understanding, Kermit Washington and Don Chaney were actually quite good (see my hypothetical on page one of this thread).

I guess some of it was the merger.

Yes. I'm putting more emphasis from 1977-78 til 1978-79

Adrian Dantley couldn't care less about playing defense, especially at that point, and this is no exaggeration, he had the physical tools and he was a smart player but most of the time watching him just not giving a single **** about a defensive possession was more than cringe worthy. If that man was a good teammate, on and off the court, understood team and defense concept and actually cared about playing D, we might've been looking at a top20 player right there.
Nixon gambled a lot and was not big on team defense.
Sweet Lou was never known for defense.
Wilkes was pretty good but the rest just ****ed it up.

[DatAsh]

When did his begin in your opinion, and when did it end? Which year was his offensive peak? Defensive peak?

Right now I'm going with his prime being from his rookie season through 80, but I think the case can be made for it lasting through 81 (Moses was just a tough matchup for him in the playoffs) or 82. From everything I read, that's the final possible season it could be.

I have 77 as his peak on both ends, but I think 71, 72, 74, and 80 (probably not defensively, though) can be argued as well.


I see it almost exactly the way you do. 77 peak, prime is basically all of the 70s.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I think maybe jlauber's going a bit over the top about it, but I do think the mobility is a big deal (especially since Kareem mentioned it in his autobiography, I'll have to reread just to be sure of the wording). Maybe it's just not a huge deal though.

I'm still going with 76-77, but I think 73-74 could be his second best year maybe. Offensively 79-80 is definitely up there too.

You can say that from a statistic standpoint his 1972 season is his best, even one of the very greatest ever.

Offensively and defensively, beast on both sides, still, in 1980. Read some articles that he was really focused on defense that season. Had there been the DPOY award, he would've finished at least top2, that year.

[SHAQisGOAT]

jlauber's point is always about numbers. He doesn't talk about how Kareem played or aspects of his game. He won't be talking about how Kareem's offensive skillset changed due to physical change. That's why I dismissed his contributions.

Kareem's pyhsical evolution is like LeBron in a way. He sacrificed some of his mobility to get stronger.

73-74 season definetely one of his top 4, tho. I agree about 73-74 season being one of his best.

Well said. dankok8's post was pretty much spot on, on this one.


I couldn't disagree more with LAZERUSS. Statistical peak does NOT equal actual peak ability. Jordan put up his best stats in 87-88, Wilt in 61-62, and Lebron in 09-10. I strongly believe none of those 3 guys peaked in the aforementioned seasons.

Lakers' Kareem circa 1977 still had at least 90% of his early athleticism but he was a much more polished player. He had the skyhook perfected with both hands, a mid-range J up to 15 feet, and he had 20 lbs more of muscle to bang down low. His edge in physical strength and experience made him even more devastating in the postseason against elite defenders. In 1980 he lost a little more athleticism but he was till a beast.

Peak: 76-77
Prime: 69-70 to 80-81

[LAZERUSS]

Well said. dankok8's post was pretty much spot on, on this one.



And yet...absolutely no evidence of ANY kind which would have suggested that Kareem was better in '77 than early in his career. Hell, he was just as dominant in the post-season, in his ROOKIE season, as he was in that 76-77 post-season. And his 70-71 and 71-72 seasons just BLOW AWAY ANY of his seasons, in EVERY category, after that.

[DatAsh]

One thing to consider is that Kareem in the late 70s was defended differently than he was in the early 70s. Kareem himself made mention of this.

[SHAQisGOAT]

And yet...absolutely no evidence of ANY kind which would have suggested that Kareem was better in '77 than early in his career. Hell, he was just as dominant in the post-season, in his ROOKIE season, as he was in that 76-77 post-season. And his 70-71 and 71-72 seasons just BLOW AWAY ANY of his seasons, in EVERY category, after that.


You keep mentioning stats, stats, stats and the same stats, please stop.

What kind of evidence? All I can say is,

As an overall player:
>more polished, more refined game:
-perfected sky-hook with the right hand and better with the left, as dankok said
-better FT shooter
-improved footwork and overall postgame
-better at knocking those open mid-range jumpers
>more mass to better deal with the bigger, bruising centers
>better from an intangible stand-point, smarter, developed IQ from many years in the league, clutcher, calmer under pressure, better at reading defenses...

From the footage available just go and watch him play in those early years and then around 1977. That might not be enough but..

The translation of that:
-In 1977, for example, led a Lakers' team which nobody would call good, to 53W, in his 2nd year there, after some trades, with 1st year coach Jerry West, then murdered Parish and Cliff Ray in the semifinals and from an individual stand-point clearly and considerably outplayed Walton in the conference finals. While around worse teammates than in those early Bucks years, CLEARLY.
-Considering that above, in the regular season, he was 1st in PER, 1st in OWS, 1st in DWS, 1st in WS and WS/48, 3rd in DRtg, 1st in FG%(only time in his career), 2nd in points, 1st in rebounds, 1st in blocks, not even top10 in MPG and 9th in minutes played; and was able to do more of the same, in fact really raised that in the post-season
-Look at how in 1971 or 1972(which like I've said can be called as his greatest regular season from a statistical standpoint, in fact one of the very greatest ever, but that never tells the whole story) he considerably dropped his production in the post-season, on the other hand, in 1977 he raised it and had probably had his best post-season but teammates weren't up to par.

What more do you want me to say?

If we look at the raw volume of numbers in the regular-season (what you're doing, only.. also adding to the fact that Kareem was MVP and won a ring because he was that great and the Bucks were stacked):
-Wilt didn't peak in 1967
-Jordan's peak was around 1988, Bird's peak in 88 too
-Lebron was a better player in his younger years, Karl Malone too
-Adrian Dantley is top30 player
..........

And some of the examples above can also be for 'if a player is better when at his athletic peak..'.


Your agenda is clear on this one, or should I say always.. Wilt (also Magic). So I won't continue with this.

[fpliii]

I'm going to be honest, I'm really high on Bucks Kareem right now. Some hype as the most mobile 7 footer ever at the time.

Actually, prime Kareem as a whole is interesting. There is a ton of his games out there. Really would like to watch as much as possible.

[1987_Lakers]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=231270

[Iceman#44]

King was the Mvp in 84...damn

[Iceman#44]

Voting was done by the players through 79-80. The sportswriters who took over in 80-81 had different criteria, most likely. Though it's worth noting that The Sporting News (TSN) NBA Player of the Year actually continued for a while, and was voted on by the players through 01, and again from 09-11 (02-08 front office personnel voted, and TSN has been absorbed by AOL since then and the award no longer exists):

81 Julius Erving
82 Moses Malone
83 Moses Malone
84 Bernard King
85 Larry Bird
86 Larry Bird
87 Magic Johnson
88 Michael Jordan
89 Michael Jordan
90 Charles Barkley
91 Michael Jordan
92 Michael Jordan
93 Charles Barkley
94 Hakeem Olajuwon
95 David Robinson
96 Michael Jordan
97 Michael Jordan
98 Michael Jordan
99 Karl Malone
00 Shaquille O'Neal
01 Allen Iverson
02 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
03 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
04 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
05 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
06 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
07 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
08 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
09 LeBron James
10 LeBron James
11 Derrick Rose
12 Award Discontinued
13 Award Discontinued

Prior to 79-80 they had the same picks for MVP, except in 72-73 (players picked Tiny Archibald for TSN POY, and Dave Cowens for NBA MVP, perhaps due to differences in polling).King was the Mvp in 84. ..damn