So, I thought KG was done?

[fpliii]

The Big Ticket

The second major part of the longball lineup is the man in the middle, Kevin Garnett. Garnett played power forward for the majority of his minutes before Brook Lopez's injury, but has slid into the center spot without issue.

"Ticket, he's holding down the backline," Livingston says of his starting center.

Garnett's listed at 6'11", but the joke around the league is that he's 6'13", thanks to his unnatural length and likely understated height.

His impact on the defensive end is almost too big for statistics to grasp, but let's give it a shot: since January 1st, the Nets have allowed opponents to score 107.2 points per 100 possessions with Garnett off the floor, and 87.9 points per 100 possessions with him on the floor.

I fear stating the numbers doesn't quantify how ridiculous they are, so let's make some comparisons. Indiana's league-best defense allows teams to score 92.8 points per 100 possessions. The Garnett-led Nets in 2014 are nearly a full five points better than that. Utah's league-worst defense clocks in at around 107.6 points per 100 possessions, just a hair below the Garnett-benched Nets.

In sum: with Kevin Garnett on the floor, the Nets make the league's best defense look average. With Garnett off the floor, the Nets look like the league's worst defense. It's that significant.

Garnett's renowned around the league for his ability to play help defense and communicate, and that's what he's brought to the Nets. I've spoken about this at length already, but Garnett at center means he's defending the paint more often, helping him defend against opposing drives much more frequently.

In 2014, the Nets allow 47.5 percent shooting on 17.8 attempts per 48 minutes in the restricted area with Garnett on the floor, and 58.7 percent shooting on 25.9 attempts per 48 minutes in the restricted area with him off. The difference is staggering.

Garnett's positive impact hasn't just affected the defensive side of the floor: he's made a huge impact on the team's offensive flow. Garnett is third on the team (behind Williams and Livingston) in passes per game, clocking it at around 38 passes per game despite playing around 22 minutes.

Most of Garnett's passes come out of the high post. He's a centralizer: standing in the middle to help the team swing the ball from side to side to find open looks. That stands in stark contrast to Lopez, who often received the ball as the final option.

source: http://thebrooklyngame.com/brooklyn-nets-lineup-its-not-smallball-its-longball/

[navy]

He's been playing decent. But done count on it to hold up.

[IncarceratedBob]

He's washed up, just watch the game. He's slow, no lift whatsoever, and nobody respects him anymore. Time to hang em up Kev

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

:applause: :applause: :applause:
he played very bad in the start but he comin back to form:applause:

[fpliii]

He's washed up, just watch the game. He's slow, no lift whatsoever, and nobody respects him anymore. Time to hang em up Kev
Dude, I'm in the NYC market. Unless a Lakers game or a big-time matchup is on at the same time, I'm watching every Nets/Knicks game.

His shot hasn't been falling, but he's been a beast defensively/rebounding.

I haven't been to a game yet this year, and I usually go to a half dozen a season. I'll have to hit the Nets up soon.

[TheReal Kendall]

Bro he's done! Pierce too! The Nets ain't going anywhere.

[cltcfn2924]

He's washed up, just watch the game. He's slow, no lift whatsoever, and nobody respects him anymore. Time to hang em up Kev

So the defensive stats are a mirage?

[scm5]

Well, the article said "since Jan 1st" which is kind of nitpicking and a relatively small sample of games.

That being said, KG is a great player and is far from done. You'll likely see Garnett looking more like his old self during the playoffs.

BTW how ridiculous is it that the Nets are now 7th seed in the East with the start they had?

[Bush4Ever]

Generally speaking, interior defense and rebounding are among the last skills to significantly degrade as a basketball player ages.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Well, the article said "since Jan 1st" which is kind of nitpicking and a relatively small sample of games.

That being said, KG is a great player and is far from done. You'll likely see Garnett looking more like his old self during the playoffs.

BTW how ridiculous is it that the Nets are now 7th seed in the East with the start they had?
It show how weak the east is than anything else

[fpliii]

Generally speaking, interior defense and rebounding are among the last skills to significantly degrade as a basketball player ages.
True.

FWIW Pierce still looks very much like he's done at this point, though I've been saying that for over a year.

[scm5]

It show how weak the east is than anything else

Oh, I guess my phrasing was off. That's exactly what I meant.

[It's A VC3!!!]

The Celtics won their championship in 2008 with Garnett at center. For whatever reason, Garnett plays much better at center, as does the entire team. He was dominant at power forward when he was younger but at center, he has one or two more good years left. He's averaging 8 and 8, not bad for a 37 year old getting 20 minutes per game and only 8 shot attempts per game. He's been an absolute joy to watch. He has so much energy, loves to be coached, and loves winning.:cheers:


Also as a 5, KG can just sit in the paint and contest shots. As a 4 he had to come out and guard quicker players and that didn't translate into good results.

[scm5]

True.

FWIW Pierce still looks very much like he's done at this point, though I've been saying that for over a year.

It's definitely not up to his standards, but Pierce is putting up decent numbers:

13/5/3 on 54% TS

[It's A VC3!!!]

It's definitely not up to his standards, but Pierce is putting up decent numbers:

13/5/3 on 54% TS
Pierce has been very decent this year. It's hard to expect him to average more than 13-15 PPG with Joe and Deron on the team. Plus, he's been passing a lot more instead of looking for his shot.

[fpliii]

I've really liked what I've seen from JJ this year. Maybe I'm underrating Pierce, but those two plays from last season did him in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uwlEfZYJes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyhhrB9XLV0

[Nets fan 93]

He played out of position all season. Now that he's in his comfort zone he's back to focussing on defense! Love what he has brought to this team

[scm5]

Pierce has been very decent this year. It's hard to expect him to average more than 13-15 PPG with Joe and Deron on the team. Plus, he's been passing a lot more instead of looking for his shot.

It was hard to imagine anyone putting up beast stats aside from Deron at the beginning of the season, before any games had been played. In my mind, Deron was going to put up 13-15ppg AND apg with the amount of shot makers he had on the team.

[It's A VC3!!!]

I've really liked what I've seen from JJ this year. Maybe I'm underrating Pierce, but those two plays from last season did him in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uwlEfZYJes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyhhrB9XLV0
He's not done. While Pierce can no longer take over a game, he is still very solid in making plays and hitting big shots as well as an occasional isolation play. If the Nets force fed him 20 shots per game he can put up 20 per game but that would drastically tire him out.

[fpliii]

He's not done. While Pierce can no longer take over a game, he is still very solid in making plays and hitting big shots as well as an occasional isolation play. If the Nets force fed him 20 shots per game he can put up 20 per game but that would drastically tire him out.
Do you feel they've been using him well recently?

[It's A VC3!!!]

Do you feel they've been using him well recently?
Absolutely. Since Pierce is our four, the goal has been to give them the ball and have him beat the other defender and make the open pass or score the ball. I would like to see him on the baseline more because he can easily break down the opposing four and charge in for an open dunk. Other than that, and his occasional dumb turnovers, Pierce has been what we've asked him to be.

[ChuckOakley]

Probably the #1 reason for the Nets turnaround

Other reasons

1. Livingston in the starting line-up
2. Teletovic playing well, Evans getting DNPs
3. AK's return
4. JJ's hot play
5. PP at the 4
6. Time. It was a matter of time before it all came together


Other thing.. Kidd has done a great job of player management and development as of late
-Livingston best year of his career
-Teletovic given PT and playing well
-Bringing PP off the bench originally, which encouraged D.Will to come off the bench
-Plumlee being developed well
-Blatche sent home for 5 games to get in shape and refocus

Prokhorov noted Kidd is a different person and acts like a "boss" out there now, and I believe it. He's much more engaged and I think he has the team 100% on the same page

I'm still torn on if this could have been done if Lopez never got injured, but I will point out, Deron has had little to do with this surge. He played well the first couple games before getting injured, but honestly I like him better off the bench. He's got chemistry with AK and Blatche, while JJ plays better with Livingston. I know he won't continue to come off the bench, but I hope Kidd plays him more with the second unit.

[Derka]

The Celtics won their championship in 2008 with Garnett at center.

We did not. Kendrick Perkins was the center on that team. KG was a stretch-4 who did a good deal of his offensive damage between 15-20 feet of the rim.

[It's A VC3!!!]

Probably the #1 reason for the Nets turnaround

Other reasons

1. Livingston in the starting line-up
2. Teletovic playing well, Evans getting DNPs
3. AK's return
4. JJ's hot play
5. PP at the 4
6. Time. It was a matter of time before it all came together


Other thing.. Kidd has done a great job of player management and development as of late
-Livingston best year of his career
-Teletovic given PT and playing well
-Bringing PP off the bench originally, which encouraged D.Will to come off the bench
-Plumlee being developed well
-Blatche sent home for 5 games to get in shape and refocus

Prokhorov noted Kidd is a different person and acts like a "boss" out there now, and I believe it. He's much more engaged and I think he has the team 100% on the same page

I'm still torn on if this could have been done if Lopez never got injured, but I will point out, Deron has had little to do with this surge. He played well the first couple games before getting injured, but honestly I like him better off the bench. He's got chemistry with AK and Blatche, while JJ plays better with Livingston. I know he won't continue to come off the bench, but I hope Kidd plays him more with the second unit.


We wouldn't be accomplishing any of this with Brook. The reason is because KG would have still been bad at forward and Pierce wouldn't be the 4. The reason for Nets success is moving KG to the 5 and Pierce to the 4. KG at center is a better defender and rebounder than Brook at center, and that's in a lot less minutes.

[It's A VC3!!!]

We did not. Kendrick Perkins was the center on that team. KG was a stretch-4 who did a good deal of his offensive damage between 15-20 feet of the rim.
I thought he stopped playing in key moments and was injured for a bit? Which allowed KG to dominate at center.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Not to rain on the parade but since January 1:

KG has averaged 23 MPG. And he has two DNP in that time frame as well. He was a good defender, but if you can't play at least half the game, and have to sit out games here and there for your body to rest up.... then your defensive impact isn't going to amount to much come playoffs.

[jalbert009]

I am a Huge KG fan and I admit he is now a shell of his former self. With that said, even as a shell of his former self, he can still anchor the defense of this Nets team. He's a much more capable Defensive anchor than Lopez. The stats show it as per the OP.

[The JKidd Kid]

Well, the article said "since Jan 1st" which is kind of nitpicking and a relatively small sample of games.

That being said, KG is a great player and is far from done. You'll likely see Garnett looking more like his old self during the playoffs.

BTW how ridiculous is it that the Nets are now 7th seed in the East with the start they had?

Well it's been 10 games which isn't a small sample size and jan 1st marks the day the Nets started playing small ball with KG at the 5.

[Derka]

I thought he stopped playing in key moments and was injured for a bit? Which allowed KG to dominate at center.

2008, no one was injured.
2009, KG was injured.
2010, Perkins got hurt in Game 7 against LA.
2011, Perk got traded and Shaq got hurt...this was the start of KG playing the center spot, which he did in all of 2012.

[tpols]

KG's so good at hedging and defending PnR.. which is what most the league uses so you bring him in to start both halves against starters it sets a good defensive tone. Lopez got blocks but he couldnt guard smaller players at all and got shot over/broken down all the time

[Boarder Patrol]

He's been nice recently and should finish around 10/9 for the season, but I'd still feel pretty crappy about trading away #1 picks for him.

[Black and White]

I thought he stopped playing in key moments and was injured for a bit? Which allowed KG to dominate at center.

Lolwut?

[It's A VC3!!!]

Not to rain on the parade but since January 1:

KG has averaged 23 MPG. And he has two DNP in that time frame as well. He was a good defender, but if you can't play at least half the game, and have to sit out games here and there for your body to rest up.... then your defensive impact isn't going to amount to much come playoffs.
He's not playing in back-to-backs so that he could be rested come playoff time. When that time comes he will play 30-35 minutes per game.

[ChuckOakley]

We wouldn't be accomplishing any of this with Brook. The reason is because KG would have still been bad at forward and Pierce wouldn't be the 4. The reason for Nets success is moving KG to the 5 and Pierce to the 4. KG at center is a better defender and rebounder than Brook at center, and that's in a lot less minutes.
Kidd is pretty good at figuring things out.
I'm guessing eventually KG would have exclusively been a center with Brook around and come off the bench. He's only playing about 20mpg and Brook plays low minutes for a C.

How long do you think Deron comes off the bench VC?
I almost say ride this to the ASG if it keeps working.
Limit Deron's minutes and let him get used to taking over games with the second unit. We need him eventually, but I think we only have 10 games until the ASG. I say roll with it...unless we start losing or Livingston is out. Also, if we start him it means our only back up PG is...gasp...Teague.


BTW...I really really hope you knew I was being sarcastic about the laws of karma and the your effect on the Nets. No one called me out on it and thought I was serious so I rolled with it as a joke thinking eventually you or someone would pick up in it. Though, I haven't looked at a game thread on here for about a month... ;)

[ChuckOakley]

He's been nice recently and should finish around 10/9 for the season, but I'd still feel pretty crappy about trading away #1 picks for him.
And PP and ridding ourselves of Wallace the cancer and contract.

[niko]

Kidd is pretty good at figuring things out.
I'm guessing eventually KG would have exclusively been a center with Brook around and come off the bench. He's only playing about 20mpg and Brook plays low minutes for a C.

How long do you think Deron comes off the bench VC?
I almost say ride this to the ASG if it keeps working.
Limit Deron's minutes and let him get used to taking over games with the second unit. We need him eventually, but I think we only have 10 games until the ASG. I say roll with it...unless we start losing or Livingston is out. Also, if we start him it means our only back up PG is...gasp...Teague.


BTW...I really really hope you knew I was being sarcastic about the laws of karma and the your effect on the Nets. No one called me out on it and thought I was serious so I rolled with it as a joke thinking eventually you or someone would pick up in it. Though, I haven't looked at a game thread on here for about a month... ;)
I told you to lay off, albeit lightly. It'saVC3 at his worst can be grating (although i have and always will appreciate the fact he is there every game ranting and raving).

Don't you need to play Deron now and see if he's ok or not? i don't think limiting the minutes will help, he's either ok, or he's not.

Someone over at the Nets told me people send Brook boxes of DVD's and comic books so he has stuff to do while he heals. LOL

[ChuckOakley]

Not to rain on the parade but since January 1:

KG has averaged 23 MPG. And he has two DNP in that time frame as well. He was a good defender, but if you can't play at least half the game, and have to sit out games here and there for your body to rest up.... then your defensive impact isn't going to amount to much come playoffs.
Isn't that a good thing for the Nets?
As in they are 8-1 during that time period and KG has not had to play much

Quality wins too.
OKC
Miami
Atlanta twice
NY
+
Cleveland
Orlando

The only loss was against Toronto though..
We beat Miami in double OT the night before
We got into Toronto at 4am
We were missing D.Will, KG (Lopez )
We had a 10 point lead late in the third before they hit a wall

[ChuckOakley]

I told you to lay off, albeit lightly. It'saVC3 at his worst can be grating (although i have and always will appreciate the fact he is there every game ranting and raving).

Don't you need to play Deron now and see if he's ok or not? i don't think limiting the minutes will help, he's either ok, or he's not.

Someone over at the Nets told me people send Brook boxes of DVD's and comic books so he has stuff to do while he heals. LOL
I know you did...but I think people really thought I meant that new age BS. So I took it to an extreme that I didn't think anyone would take seriously.

And yeah VC is a knowledgeable and loyal fan,but at the same time he is the sole reason I won't venture into a game thread around here..it's become an unfunny and predictable act every single game thread. I want to discuss the game among rational people, but something happens to him during a game and he really reminds me of my sister when she was about 10 years old and would watch her favorite tennis player (Monica Seles) play and she would throw things, call her names and cry if she lost. I had to leave the room and it made me hate Seles and her. But a couple of her friends thought it was funny so she kept doing it.

But...outside of a game thread he's cool and I respect his opinion.

[niko]

I know you did...but I think people really thought I meant that new age BS. So I took it to an extreme that I didn't think anyone would take seriously.

And yeah VC is a knowledgeable and loyal fan,but at the same time he is the sole reason I won't venture into a game thread around here..it's become an unfunny and predictable act every single game thread. I want to discuss the game among rational people, but something happens to him during a game and he really reminds me of my sister when she was about 10 years old and would watch her favorite tennis player (Monica Seles) play and she would throw things, call her names and cry if she lost. I had to leave the room and it made me hate Seles and her. But a couple of her friends thought it was funny so she kept doing it.

But...outside of a game thread he's cool and I respect his opinion.

He does that in the Knick thread, but it's teams he doesn't know so it's ridiculous. He's yelling at backup 2g's for missing jumpers and such. :lol He yells at JJ, HOW COULD YOU MISS THOSE 2 SHOTS (of 10)? I remember telling him once, even if you think the Nets can win a title, it's really hard, and at best there is 1,000 times it will hurt during the year. He really thought they'd go 80-2, 15-1 in the playoffs without a moment worry.

[ChuckOakley]

He does that in the Knick thread, but it's teams he doesn't know so it's ridiculous. He's yelling at backup 2g's for missing jumpers and such. :lol He yells at JJ, HOW COULD YOU MISS THOSE 2 SHOTS (of 10)? I remember telling him once, even if you think the Nets can win a title, it's really hard, and at best there is 1,000 times it will hurt during the year. He really thought they'd go 80-2, 15-1 in the playoffs without a moment worry.
Yeah, if the team played like he expected we would win every game 150 to 50 and be 82-0..thus I don't get anything from his "analysis". Either it's an act (my guess) or he's certifiably insane/bipolar. I also feel embarrassed as a Net fan so I won't post in them anymore. Sometimes I read them after the fact, but I make a point to not read his posts unless they are before tip off or after the game ends and he's contributing something.

[ChuckOakley]

He's not done. While Pierce can no longer take over a game, he is still very solid in making plays and hitting big shots as well as an occasional isolation play. If the Nets force fed him 20 shots per game he can put up 20 per game but that would drastically tire him out.
His shooting percentages are atrocious and his turnovers have been problematic at times. He's played some very sloppy ball. I would love to move him as he has value as an expiring contract, but we can't since it would piss off KG.

[It's A VC3!!!]

Kidd is pretty good at figuring things out.
I'm guessing eventually KG would have exclusively been a center with Brook around and come off the bench. He's only playing about 20mpg and Brook plays low minutes for a C.

How long do you think Deron comes off the bench VC?
I almost say ride this to the ASG if it keeps working.
Limit Deron's minutes and let him get used to taking over games with the second unit. We need him eventually, but I think we only have 10 games until the ASG. I say roll with it...unless we start losing or Livingston is out. Also, if we start him it means our only back up PG is...gasp...Teague.



I knew Deron was going to come off the bench initially because we didn't have a back-up point guard. Now that Teague is with the Nets, I can see Deron moving into the starting lineup as soon as tomorrow against the Mavericks. With Deron coming off the bench, Blatche has played marvelously because he has someone to keep him in check. Our second unit has played really well with Deron. Livingston has played badly since the Heat game four games ago. Since then, he has went 11/31 from the field. It might be time to put Deron back in because Livingston is getting tired.

And although Teague is not stellar, he has shown some really bright flashes, especially on defense. Right now it would be smart for Kidd to not ruin the momentum and keep things the way they are.

[It's A VC3!!!]

His shooting percentages are atrocious and his turnovers have been problematic at times. He's played some very sloppy ball. I would love to move him as he has value as an expiring contract, but we can't since it would piss off KG.
I wouldn't mind moving him either but that won't happen. Still, just his presence forces defenders to play him. Unlike Wallace, defenders have to stay near Pierce and even double team him. He's still very serviceable at the four and a big reason why we are 8-1 in 2014. His turnovers are the worst but come playoff time he's capable of taking and making big shots when Joe could fail to show up for a game or so. That could be valuable.

[niko]

His shooting percentages are atrocious and his turnovers have been problematic at times. He's played some very sloppy ball. I would love to move him as he has value as an expiring contract, but we can't since it would piss off KG.
KG is always pissed off. I thought the same thing (if you move Pierce then he acts up) but he's gotten surlier and more pissed off lately and yet, he's playing better and better. Maybe it doesn't matter.

To me the thing to avoid is long term money. If you start leaking into further years, you might get the situation where you prevent ever rebuilding.

[It's A VC3!!!]

KG is always pissed off. I thought the same thing (if you move Pierce then he acts up) but he's gotten surlier and more pissed off lately and yet, he's playing better and better. Maybe it doesn't matter.

To me the thing to avoid is long term money. If you start leaking into further years, you might get the situation where you prevent ever rebuilding.
Long-term money won't be a problem. Pierce expires this season, KG the season after and Deron, Joe and Brook the season after that. In three years the entire Nets starting unit will be off the books. Deron is likely the only player that will return.

[D-FENS]

Generally speaking, interior defense and rebounding are among the last skills to significantly degrade as a basketball player ages.

That explains Kurt Thomas

[ChuckOakley]

Long-term money won't be a problem. Pierce expires this season, KG the season after and Deron, Joe and Brook the season after that. In three years the entire Nets starting unit will be off the books. Deron is likely the only player that will return.
Right, but if we move PP now while we can, it potentially checks out KG for this season and we go back to sucking.
Also, I have a feeling we resign PP for at least one more season while KG is around.

[ImKobe]

wtf Nets have won 8 in a row? wow.

[ChuckOakley]

wtf Nets have won 8 in a row? wow.
The have not.

8-1 in January though

NYK
OKC
MIA
GSW (ended their 10 games winning streak with no D.Will or Lopez)
ATL x2
CLE
ORL

The 1 loss to Toronto though..
-Night after double OT win vs. Miami
-Got into TO at 4am
-No D.Will, KG (or Lopez)
-up 10 late in the 3rd before they hit a wall

[niko]

Long-term money won't be a problem. Pierce expires this season, KG the season after and Deron, Joe and Brook the season after that. In three years the entire Nets starting unit will be off the books. Deron is likely the only player that will return.
Which is why i don't think they should trade PP for long term money. You get another $10M or so guy, Blatche at $8M or so, maybe you add someone in the summer a nice vet, maybe Lopez recovers, Teletovic expires, etc. You don't want a situation you hit the years everyone is off the books and you have little flexibility because you added a $10M nice piece but not a title helping piece.

[ChuckOakley]

Which is why i don't think they should trade PP for long term money. You get another $10M or so guy, Blatche at $8M or so, maybe you add someone in the summer a nice vet, maybe Lopez recovers, Teletovic expires, etc. You don't want a situation you hit the years everyone is off the books and you have little flexibility because you added a $10M nice piece but not a title helping piece.
As long as they don't go past 2015/16, I don't why not.
That is 2 years longer than Pierce.