Kevin Durant or Larry Bird?

[iamgine]

I think this is a good time to ask this question as Kevin Durant is going on a tear.

As for how come we should be comparing KD to a literal Legend, Larry Bird's peak PER was 27.8. Kevin Durant has exceeded that since last season. Durant has also exceeded Bird's PPG and TS% since last season. Both in the regular season and in the playoff. Bird also played in a faster paced team/era. Durant has just entered his 7th season at 25 years old.

What do you believe:

A. Durant is already a better player than bird. Just lacking the championships.

B. They're about equal.

C. Bird's still better but give it some time and KD's got a chance.

D. Bird's just better, there's really nothing KD can reasonably do to exceed him.

[kNicKz]

C.

Let's not get carried away just yet, but we without question are witnessing greatness right now

[moe94]

Let's be real, Bird would be Scal level realistically with an absolute best case scenario of poor man's prime Peja. Game evolved too much for him. You can't be a nonathletic white dude in this era with beasts like Love leading the league in rebounding.

On the flip side, throw Durant into the video game 80s and he's putting up 2K numbers on 60+% shooting with ease.

Durant is quite clearly better than Bird ever was.

calm down, was the Love part not a hint enough?

[Joyner82reload]

Regular season wise, Durant is having a better season than Bird ever did. Bird would probably be averaging 25/8/6 in today's game at this pace. Bird is obviously a superior passer with superior b-ball IQ, but Durant is a better defender and a VASTLY superior scorer.

[KevinDurant35]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Kevin Durant.

[LeBron 06]

C.

[Trollsmasher]

Č.

[cos88]

let's stick to durant vs tmac threads :facepalm first durant needs to not lose 4 in a row 2 consecutive years in the playoffs, not disaper and choke in the important moments in the playoffs ( vs memphis ), not let mario chalmers ( or other weak player ) abuse him, win something not named scoring title :facepalm idiots

[r0drig0lac]

lol

[IncarceratedBob]

D. IMO

All time SF peaks( skills no accomplishments)
1. Bird
2. Pippen
3. Erving

1

[SHAQisGOAT]

Seriously? So we've came to this now? :rolleyes: :facepalm

Comparing PER across eras? :facepalm And also using it to determine the better player? :facepalm

Put Bird playing right now and watch that TS% rise considerably, as he would shoot more 3's (even a better shooter, coming up with the line), would be easier to score with softer rules and he would go the line even more (rip-through move lol).

Bird played at like 10% faster pace, not nearly enough to influence anything, he would still have his shots, his passes (even being more ball-dominant), his trb% is similar to Shawn Marion, who's smaller and not as good of a rebounder and averages 9 rpg in 35 min for his career.
Bird averaged the same stats at today's pace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po1M--HaINA

Hype machine is crazy these days man, a player goes on a terrific run and suddendly he's GOAT or something? :coleman: Just chill, man.
They're easily comparable in scoring/shooting yes, and Durant is more athletic yes, but Bird had a better post-game, better footwork, better use of both hands, player with no wasted motion, a better rebounder, a better passer/playmaker and a better defender. And he turned a franchise around from day one, bonafide winner, proven champion, GOAT forward with a top5 peak.
Just stop it please, no it's not the time for this just because KD's going on a tear (again an amazing run, great to watch) and because you're drooling over it like a little kid who knows nothing else.

Thread filled with ignorance. It is what it is though.

[sundizz]

This is a bit wild. Bird had a 3 year peak that might be unrivaled in modern basketball.

During his 3 year absolute destructive peak his playoff stats for the 2 years they won the chip are:

1983-1984 playoffs (MVP, Finals MVP, Championship):
27.5 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 5.9 apg, 2.3 spg, 1.2 bpg on 53%, 41% and 88%

1985-1986 playoffs (MVP, Finals MVP, Championship):
25.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 8.2 apg, 2.1 spg, .6 bpg on 54%, 41% and 93%

The average pace during 83-84 was 101.4 possessions per 48 minutes.
The average pace during 85-86 was 102.1 possessions per 48 minutes.
Current pace (this year) is 94.1 possessions per 48 minutes.

I feel it is important to include that because stats are also representative of pace. However, even if you want to downgrade Larry's playoffs stats to current pace they would still be:

1983-84 (adjusted for pace)
25.5 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 5.48 apg, 2.13 spg and 1.11 bpg

1985-86 (adjusted for pace)
24.04 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 7.6 apg, 1.95 spg, .56 bpg

[Stringer Bell]

C.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Durant needs to pass Melo first.

[MUGEN]

lol have we really come to this point?

[pauk]

So basically so far in the regular season KD managed to somehow surpass Lebron, Kobe and now Bird aswell? Why not Jordan aswell? Whats the difference?

I love KD, but seeing around the comments & opinions lately, not just in ISH... he is on pace to become the most overrated player in NBA history....

[jzek]

Bird is the GOAT SF (yes, not LeBron).

[MUGEN]

So basically so far in the regular season KD managed to somehow surpass Lebron, Kobe and now Bird aswell? Why not Jordan aswell? Whats the difference?

I love KD, but seeing around the comments & opinions lately, not just in ISH... he is on pace to become the most overrated player in NBA history....

Give about 2 weeks for KD>Jordan thread :roll:

[fragokota]

I'll stick with Larry f* Legend for now, thanks....

[iamgine]

So basically so far in the regular season KD managed to somehow surpass Lebron, Kobe and now Bird aswell? Why not Jordan aswell? Whats the difference?

I love KD, but seeing around the comments & opinions lately, not just in ISH... he is on pace to become the most overrated player in NBA history....
KD is playing better than Lebron but hasn't surpassed him.

[Joyner82reload]

So basically so far in the regular season KD managed to somehow surpass Lebron, Kobe and now Bird aswell? Why not Jordan aswell? Whats the difference?

I love KD, but seeing around the comments & opinions lately, not just in ISH... he is on pace to become the most overrated player in NBA history....


Individual talent/skill/domination/production/stats wise Lebron has been better than any SF in NBA history, since a long while ago....... only thing Bird could do significantly better was shoot, Lebron does everything else better with the most significant part being defense..... Bird has a more accomplished career tho, hence the higher place on the rankings....

This quote above was in 2012 from Pauk, before LeBron's repeat. So LeBron can pass Bird without the hardware, but Durant can't based on his individual play? Durant has very clearly been better this season than LeBron was in 2012, 2013 is arguable.

Nice hypocrisy Pauk, I would expect nothing less of you

[SHAQisGOAT]

Regular season wise, Durant is having a better season than Bird ever did. Bird would probably be averaging 25/8/6 in today's game at this pace. Bird is obviously a superior passer with superior b-ball IQ, but Durant is a better defender and a VASTLY superior scorer.

No, just no.

So Bird couldn't get his 20 shots per game? Right :rolleyes: (even taking more 3's, and coming up with the line, most likely a better 3pt shooter :eek:)

His career high FTA's is 6.1, even at a slower pace, with these soft ass rules, he would go to the line easily more. Teach him the rip-through:oldlol:

Shawn Marion career's TRB% is 14.5%, same as Bird's, and he averages 9.0 rpg in 35 mpg for his career, smaller than Bird not as good of a rebounder, didn't play alongside a dude like Parish. Kevin Love averages 13 per game. Height average is lower, bigmen are softer, and he couldn't grab double digits in rebounds? :lol

Bird was playing PF and SF, never PG-like, never the main ball-handler, USG% of 26.5 for his career (low for a superstar), never had more than 1 3pt shooter around, played with little very athletic players.... and averaged 6.3 apg for his career. He could easily average over 7 at his best.

In 1992, Bird was a shell, 35 years old, banged up and playing with career ending injuries, Celtics' average pace was 95.8 and Bird was putting up 20/10/7/1/1 with a USG of 24.7%.

Bird averaged the same he was averaging, at today's pace, 10% higher pace is not considerable enough to change stats of a player like that (especially a superstar like Larry) as some ignorant dudes such as yourself try to pass it off: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po1M--HaINA

And that was a dude that didn't give a **** about stats, just winning games. Stop talking nonsense.

Vastly superior scorer? :oldlol: Stop. They're very comparable yes, Durant's more willing and most likely will go down as a better scorer but I wouldn't say superior let alone vastly. Both terrific shooters (two of the greatest), and KD's more athletic but Bird was more savy, smarter, better footwork, better touch from close with both hands and easily a better post-game, that's important.

Durant a better defender? :roll: Stop snorting coke son.
Bird led the league in dws 4x and was pretty much always at the top, and always amongst the leaders in drtg, Celtics went from one of the worst to one of the best defensive teams with him. Said it before, other forwards doing stuff like that were Pippen, Duncan, Rodman, KG, Bobby Jones...
Bird's one of the GOAT help defenders, he was a good post m2m and above average in the perimeter m2m before injuries. He was great at the passing lanes, stealing the ball, could protect the paint by some weakside blocks, using his body for charges and laying your ass down with no thinking about it or running away like KD, so on... Tell me when Durant does stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s

Little kids running mad wild with ignorance man, drooling over every little thing like they know nothing (they actually know nothing else). Even worse are these damn fanboys.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Give about 2 weeks for KD>Jordan thread :roll:

By the way things are going, it wouldn't suprise me.

Hype is crazy these days. Sad and funny at the same time.

[sportjames23]

The Slim Reaper's the best on the game today, but Larry is Legend.

C'mon, son. Let's not get carried away.

[bdreason]

C.



Durant still needs to prove himself.

[IncarceratedBob]

Growing up Bird didn't have the 3pt shot. Larry made the 3pter what it is now, he's the grandpappy. Kevin Durant and LeBron James will never be Larry Bird, never. If you think otherwise, you never saw Bird play.

[tpols]

Bird averaged the same he was averaging, at today's pace, 10% higher pace is not considerable enough to change stats of a player like that (especially a superstar like Larry) as some ignorant dudes such as yourself try to pass it off: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po1M--HaINA

Its pretty funny to watch Bird strip young Jordan go coast to coast on him and get to the line.. but he couldnt do it against players today.

[GOATbe]

A. He's better than Bird ever was. Like joyner said, he's on pace to having the greatest season of all time and will eventually be GOAT because of this. :banana:

[dannywpt]

Durant Q&A on Twitter for the next few minutes if you wanna spam him with questions

[Joyner82reload]

Bird peak was in an era where the average FG% was 48.7, the pace was 102.1, and the average ppg was 110.2.

Durant's "peak", even though he's still 3-4 years from it, is coming in an era where the average FG% is 45.1, pace is 94.1, and the average ppg is 100.3. Fvck outta here with that BS pretending era didn't inflate Bird's numbers.

And Bird's peak in 85-86 was
25.8 ppg 9.8 rpg 6.8 apg 58 TS% 25.6 PER .244 WSp48 117 ORTG

Durant's at
31.0 ppg 7.8 rpg 5.1 apg 64 TS% 30.7 PER .325 WSp48 124 ORTG

[fpliii]

Bird, no question.

I think this a top 5 SF peak we're seeing from KD though, and he might get even better going forward.

[Joyner82reload]

Durant's numbers adjusted to 1986 pace. 36.3 ppg 9.1 rpg 6.0 apg 64 TS%
Westbrookless numbers adjusted to 1986 pace. 43.6 ppg 8.5 6.8 apg 67 TS%

[SHAQisGOAT]

This is a bit wild. Bird had a 3 year peak that might be unrivaled in modern basketball.

During his 3 year absolute destructive peak his playoff stats for the 2 years they won the chip are:

1983-1984 playoffs (MVP, Finals MVP, Championship):
27.5 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 5.9 apg, 2.3 spg, 1.2 bpg on 53%, 41% and 88%

1985-1986 playoffs (MVP, Finals MVP, Championship):
25.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 8.2 apg, 2.1 spg, .6 bpg on 54%, 41% and 93%

The average pace during 83-84 was 101.4 possessions per 48 minutes.
The average pace during 85-86 was 102.1 possessions per 48 minutes.
Current pace (this year) is 94.1 possessions per 48 minutes.

I feel it is important to include that because stats are also representative of pace. However, even if you want to downgrade Larry's playoffs stats to current pace they would still be:

1983-84 (adjusted for pace)
25.5 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 5.48 apg, 2.13 spg and 1.11 bpg

1985-86 (adjusted for pace)
24.04 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 7.6 apg, 1.95 spg, .56 bpg


Easily a top5 peak, ever. Not just the numbers but just watching him play, unreal, basketball at its highest level. :bowdown:

I don't get this adjusted for pace stuff (in this case at least), just dumb to do.
That's around 10% of a difference, not even 10 higher, that's not nearly enough to change a player's stats like that, maybe for a minor role player yes but not even close for a superstar like Bird.
This isn't Wilt taking 30 shots per game, Bird would still get the same amount of shots he did, more or less, as he wishes. Let's say, if you directly (time-machine-style) transport his teams to nowadays and force them to take less shots at a slower pace (doesn't really work that way but), it definitely wouldn't be Bird taking less shots.
Looking at trb%, looking at some examples/players from today, looking at a softer league and the lack of bigs, looking at what Bird was doing and playing with, he would average around the same in rebounding. Passing the same.
And again, Bird didn't give two ****s about stats and had a lower USG% for his level of a superstar. So looking at stats or not, justice is due when you really watch him play, what he was doing, the praise he was getting too, what he was winning, leading the team, etc. He was just freaking amazing at playing basketball, no matter what, rest is what it is.

Like I've posted, Bird averaged the same he was averaging, at today's average pace. And look at his 1992 seasons, as a complete shell.
I don't get why people keep going off on that dicussion. Makes no sense.

[cos88]

http://imageshack.com/a/img22/6366/xiuc.gif (https://imageshack.com/i/0mxiucg)

















































































http://imageshack.com/a/img600/9939/nzv.gif (https://imageshack.com/i/gonzvg)

[PsychoBe]

mj > magic > bird > everyone else

that's the pecking order and it's something that'll never change.

these are the household names that fans from across all eras will never forget.

kd can have the greatest peak of all time, he can put up career high's of 50 point games (bird's career high is 60 iirc) but larry legend will never die.

what he's done for the nba, for the celtics, and for sport is something that can't be overstated enough. that's why he's in the god-tier along with magic and michael.

50 years from now he will always be larry legend, his name synonymous with the other two greats that i mentioned.

and in the end, that's all that matters.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Durant's numbers adjusted to 1986 pace. 36.3 ppg 9.1 rpg 6.0 apg 64 TS%
Westbrookless numbers adjusted to 1986 pace. 43.6 ppg 8.5 6.8 apg 67 TS%

:facepalm

Somebody please ban this ignorant child.

Why don't you go ahead and lower the number of ft's without these bullshit fouls, the fact that he wouldn't have came up with the 3pt line, the much tougher rules, the tougher bigmen in the paint, fact that on a good team they wouldn't hog the ball unless they wanted to compete.. And watch the ppg, rpg and ts% drop considerable and the to's per game too.

Furthermore, is just stats, stats, stats with the geek boys that never played basketball in their life. Bird > Durant, and that's fact, don't matter what stats or stupid "numbers" you can muster.

10 year old kids running wild, fanboys and stat geeks. :sleeping

[Joyner82reload]

:facepalm

Somebody please ban this ignorant child.

Why don't you go ahead and lower the number of ft's without these bullshit fouls, the fact that he wouldn't have came up with the 3pt line, the much tougher rules, the tougher bigmen in the paint, fact that on a good team they wouldn't hog the ball unless they wanted to compete.. And watch the ppg, rpg and ts% drop considerable and the to's per game too.

10 year old kids running wild, fanboys and stat geeks. :sleeping

NBA average in 1986: 2.98 FG/FTA
NBA average in 2014: 3.56 FG/FTA

There were far more FT's in the 80's, that there is today. Durant hogging the ball is hysterical, seeing as he's averaging fewer FGA for his career than Bird did. Noone even guarded the 3 in the 80's because they were considered a low percentage shot, Durant would have been making it rain.

[pauk]

This quote above was in 2012 from Pauk, before LeBron's repeat. So LeBron can pass Bird without the hardware, but Durant can't based on his individual play? Durant has very clearly been better this season than LeBron was in 2012, 2013 is arguable.

Nice hypocrisy Pauk, I would expect nothing less of you

Did KD achieve what Lebron did for so long? Stats, peak or accolades? Is Durant even as good of an overall player as Lebron has been on both ends of the floor? You name it.... or wait i am talking to you, he did, he is.. KD surpassed him in every possible way... KD > Lebron, Kobe, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Jordan..... forgot, sorry...

...and no, Lebron has not surpassed Bird...

[Joyner82reload]

Did KD achieve what Lebron did for so long? Stats, peak or accolades? Is Durant even as good of an overall player as Lebron has been on both ends of the floor? You name it.... or wait i am talking to you, he did, he is.. KD surpassed him in every possible way... KD > Lebron, Kobe, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Jordan..... forgot, sorry...

...and no, Lebron has not surpassed Bird...

This thread is about peak, nothing less nothing more. When the player was at their absolute best. Now obviously we have yet to have seen Durant's absolute peak, but up to this point of THIS season THIS Durant has been better than peak Bird

[r0drig0lac]

Growing up Bird didn't have the 3pt shot. Larry made the 3pter what it is now, he's the grandpappy. Kevin Durant and LeBron James will never be Larry Bird, never. If you think otherwise, you never saw Bird play.
:applause:

[AbeVigodaLive]

Small quibble... but I see 1986 being tossed about being Bird's "peak."

Wasn't it actually 1988 (his last healthy season)? At least statistically?

29.9 ppg / 9.3 reb / 6.1 ast / 53% fg / 41% 3fg / 92% / 27.8 PER / 121 ORtg

He hit several career high marks that season. It's part of the reasons why it's a shame he never had the health to stay at the level after it...

[SHAQisGOAT]

NBA average in 1986: 2.98 FG/FTA
NBA average in 2014: 3.56 FG/FTA

There were far more FT's in the 80's, that there is today

Oh shit, really? :rolleyes: Average pace was around 10% faster in the 80s (considering every player and every team; those numbers are bound to be "that way"). Still that the difference is that.. is funny.

I'm talking about superstars here, are you that dumb? ****ing Corey Brewer ain't getting the same treatment as KD.

Shit, I'll even look at a season like 1977 when the average pace was 106.5, comparing it to last season which was 92.0... Looking at the top5 in FTA's in 1977 not even one was averaging more than 7.5 (per36), in 2013 you had dudes reaching 9 and such. One example out of many.

10 year old kids bringing up discussions and don't even know what they're saying, really dumb. :facepalm

I don't even wanna go on looking at numbers with an ignorant stats geek like yourself, I'll say it again, Bird > Durant, that's fact, peak/prime as an overall player considering everything and also career right now, no "number" you can come up with will change that.

[SHAQisGOAT]

but up to this point of THIS season THIS Durant has been better than peak Bird

Shit, just stop, somebody ban this fool, put this ignorant child out of his misery.

Yeah that goes for people like yourself that've been watching basketball for like a couple of years and know absolutely nothing about it, apart from looking at some numbers and highlights. :oldlol:

[pauk]

This thread is about peak, nothing less nothing more. When the player was at their absolute best. Now obviously we have yet to have seen Durant's absolute peak, but up to this point of THIS season THIS Durant has been better than peak Bird

How? Statistically? Sure.. if you think 29-11-7-2-1 @ 52-43-88 in 80 games is worse than what Durant is doing right now....

Now if you also screw the stats and ACTUALLY WATCH a big abundance of both those players games and compare.... you will see that Bird was better/more skilled in literally any facet of the game ever imaginable, even defensively he was better.... Durant is just much more athletic and thats basically it, oh, he perhaps also initiates more flashy dribbling, yay...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

We're not even half way into the season...at least wait until the playoffs. Bird up to this point has been better, tho. Pretty easily.

[freshperry]

I think this is a good time to ask this question as Kevin Durant is going on a tear.

As for how come we should be comparing KD to a literal Legend, Larry Bird's peak PER was 27.8. Kevin Durant has exceeded that since last season. Durant has also exceeded Bird's PPG and TS% since last season. Both in the regular season and in the playoff. Bird also played in a faster paced team/era. Durant has just entered his 7th season at 25 years old.

What do you believe:

A. Durant is already a better player than bird. Just lacking the championships.

B. They're about equal.

C. Bird's still better but give it some time and KD's got a chance.

D. Bird's just better, there's really nothing KD can reasonably do to exceed him.

No one can really choose (A) because Bird has not only more championships but more mvps. I'd say C. You never know what Durant is going to accomplish until his career is over so D is out of the question. That leaves B and C and Im choosing Bird. Also for all of you who keeps saying Bird is unatheletic, he's white etc etc. he's been hearing that ever since his college years and all he did was prove everyone wrong. Carried his scrub college team to the finals, instantly changed the celtics team when he joined, won individual and team accolades. He earned respect from legendary NBA figures like Pat riley, Auerbach, Magic. People will also try to say he had great teammates which he did, but don't think for one second Bird wasn't the leader/best player of that team.

[Joyner82reload]

How? Statistically? Sure.. if you think 29-11-7-2-1 @ 52-43-88 in 80 games is worse than what Durant is doing right now....

Now if you also screw the stats and ACTUALLY WATCH a big abundance of both those players games and compare.... you will see that Bird was better/more skilled in literally any facet of the game ever imaginable, even defensively he was better.... Durant is just much more athletic and thats basically it, oh, he perhaps also initiates more flashy dribbling, yay...

So LeBron>Bird due to stats, but Bird>Durant due to eye test

got it

[russwest0]

So LeBron>Bird due to stats, but Bird>Durant due to eye test

got it

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Pretty much what that moron was saying

[SHAQisGOAT]

Small quibble... but I see 1986 being tossed about being Bird's "peak."

Wasn't it actually 1988 (his last healthy season)? At least statistically?

29.9 ppg / 9.3 reb / 6.1 ast / 53% fg / 41% 3fg / 92% / 27.8 PER / 121 ORtg

He hit several career high marks that season. It's part of the reasons why it's a shame he never had the health to stay at the level after it...

That's why you can't go off on stats like that. Watching him play (and also what he accomplished) he was somewhat better in 1986 (because of his health), could do more things and sustain that amazing level for longer, wasn't breaking down. Of course he was still a beast in 1988, for the most part.
The way he was playing in 1986 was unreal, like Neo in the matrix man, just crazy.

In 1988 he had to carry the load and do more hence the stats, McHale was never the same, DJ was getting old, they had a poor bench.. Like I've said, Bird was a beast still but had those injuries too. If he was better than in 1986 he would be winning MVP also, and killing it in the post-season yet again, but the team also has something to do with that, can't lie.

Bird's peak was in 1986. That team is arguably GOAT and much was because of him, they were great but he elevated it and was the motor running the show. Maybe it goes a bit "unnoticed" because of how great they were and some players around him but he/they still did what was supposed to, killing everytihng in his/their path. For example, when McHale was injured during the regular season, he found a way to make them better if that's even possible, posting amazing stats, triple double after triple double, crazy run.

He could've been even better after 1986, who knows? Or continue what he was doing but his back was giving up on him, he had other nagging injuries and the Celtics were just falling apart everywhere.

In 1984 for example, he was carrying the team in the post-season, one could call that his peak too by just looking at stats in the playoffs. He won them that ring though.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Now if you also screw the stats and ACTUALLY WATCH a big abundance of both those players games and compare.... you will see that Bird was better/more skilled in literally any facet of the game ever imaginable, even defensively he was better.... Durant is just much more athletic and thats basically it, oh, he perhaps also initiates more flashy dribbling, yay...

I don't agree with you much but well said.

[AbeVigodaLive]

That's why you can't go off on stats like that. Watching him play (and also what he accomplished) he was somewhat better in 1986 (because of his health), could do more things and sustain that amazing level for longer, wasn't breaking down. Of course he was still a beast in 1988, for the most part.
The way he was playing in 1986 was unreal, like Neo in the matrix man, just crazy.

In 1988 he had to carry the load and do more hence the stats, McHale was never the same, DJ was getting old, they had a poor bench.. Like I've said, Bird was a beast still but had those injuries too. If he was better than in 1986 he would be winning MVP also, and killing it in the post-season yet again, but the team also has something to do with that, can't lie.

Bird's peak was in 1986. That team is arguably GOAT and much was because of him, they were great but he elevated it and was the motor running the show. Maybe it goes a bit "unnoticed" because of how great they were and some players around him but he/they still did what was supposed to, killing everytihng in his/their path. For example, when McHale was injured during the regular season, he found a way to make them better if that's even possible, posting amazing stats, triple double after triple double, crazy run.

He could've been even better after 1986, who knows? Or continue what he was doing but his back was giving up on him, he had other nagging injuries and the Celtics were just falling apart everywhere.

In 1984 for example, he was carrying the team in the post-season, one could call that his peak too by just looking at stats in the playoffs. He won them that ring though.



Yeah, yeah... I know all that.

But I thought people were comparing peak stats... not players. After all, peak performance is pretty subjective and can mean a lot of different things to different people.

For example, Bird's innate ability to pick and choose his spots on that ridiculous '86 team was incredible. When teamed with Walton, it seemed as if they had been playing together for years, not days or months.

[Cold soul]

I say C.

[Harison]

Correct answer is F.

[Genaro]

This don't even surprises me, this forum is full of overreaction.

[JellyBean]

C.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

KDs a much better scorer and defender.

Bird is a much better passer/playmaker and hes the superior shooter/rebounder.

Its Bird now but KD hasnt even hit his peak yet. Id take current KD over all but 2 Larry Bird seasons.

[sportjames23]

Hamtaro trollin like a mofo. :oldlol:

[KG215]

Well, at least Durant has officially arrived on ISH, now nearing Kobe and LeBron status with the stans, haters, and absurd overreactions. Took seven seasons, but it's finally happening.

[oarabbus]

Bird is a ****ing legend. I take Bird easily without a bit of hesitation. For all we know KD is Bernard King v2. He still needs to prove himself.

[iamgine]

Wait a minute, was Bird defensively better than Kevin Durant? I know Bird was better defensively than he often get credited for but definitely better than KD?

[GoranDragon]

Give me Larry Bird.

I know Larry Legend won't choke the 2012 finals.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Call me when Durant wins three championships.

[JohnFreeman]

D.

[riseagainst]

Let's be real, Bird would be Scal level realistically with an absolute best case scenario of poor man's prime Peja. Game evolved too much for him. You can't be a nonathletic white dude in this era with beasts like Love leading the league in rebounding.

On the flip side, throw Durant into the video game 80s and he's putting up 2K numbers on 60+% shooting with ease.

Durant is quite clearly better than Bird ever was.

calm down, was the Love part not a hint enough?


:lol

[zoom17]

:facepalm This is a joke right?

[deja vu]

Kids need to stop disrespecting Larry Legend by comparing Durantula to him. Durantula has a lot of proving to do before he belongs in the same sentence as the likes of Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, etc.

First of all he needs to win multiple titles. Second he needs to win multiple MVPs. Third he needs to show that winning mentality throughout his career.

Stats look good for noobs but in the end most people look at winning and achievements when ranking a player in the pantheon of greats. No doubt Durant is in the cusp of greatness but let's wait several more years before calling him an all-time great, shall we?

[NumberSix]

Durant is reaching Derrick Rose levels of overrated.

[iamgine]

Kids need to stop disrespecting Larry Legend by comparing Durantula to him. Durantula has a lot of proving to do before he belongs in the same sentence as the likes of Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, etc.

First of all he needs to win multiple titles. Second he needs to win multiple MVPs. Third he needs to show that winning mentality throughout his career.

Stats look good for noobs but in the end most people look at winning and achievements when ranking a player in the pantheon of greats. No doubt Durant is in the cusp of greatness but let's wait several more years before calling him an all-time great, shall we?
In the rankings, sure he's still very far behind.

We are talking more about impact and ability.

[Micku]

Wait a minute, was Bird defensively better than Kevin Durant? I know Bird was better defensively than he often get credited for but definitely better than KD?

From the games that I watched of Bird, he seemed to be quicker with his help defense. Granted, there were times where the team put him on the worst offensive player in order to let him roam on d. This cause him to get steals from either help d or intercept passes. He helped contest in the paint and his length contribute to that.

Durant has crazy length too, and he seemed better man to man at the perimeter. I don't know if Durant is better at defending the post.


Anyway to the main topic:

I pick C.
I don't really see Durant being a better rebounder or a better passer than Bird, though he improved a lot on his passing ability. He already is the better scorer than Bird. And he is not at his peak yet, so he may get better.

He is having a great month so far. Even though every great player have epic months, it's been a pleasure to see this one. Epic scoring performances.

[oarabbus]

Wait a minute, was Bird defensively better than Kevin Durant? I know Bird was better defensively than he often get credited for but definitely better than KD?

Doesn't matter; Bird's better.

[BigMacAttack]

Give me Larry Legend and this is a stupid stupid thread.

[AintNoSunshine]

To think about it, Lebron v. Durant is probably the closest we will get to Magic v. Bird. Hope this rivalry goes on for a long time.

[Odinn]

Just imagine ISH in 1991-92 season. After Bird's near 50 points triple-double game(49/14/12/4/1);
Bird da GOAT, even he's not the same after the injury and see what he's capable of!!

Or imagine the end of 1986-87 season, last 16 games; Bird 33.3/9.1/9.0/2.0/1.1 on .569/.390/.935.

Also there is a span which he averaged 34.2/9.4/6.3/1.6/0.6 on .599/.644/.888 in 12 consecutive games in 1985-86 season.

I posted those numbers because I do not see the point of comparing a retired goat level player and a young player which is having a sick run due to that run.

---

Durant has been amazing since Westbrook went down. He's a 38.1/5.9/6.0/1.7/0.7 guy on .520/.394/.882 in his last 12 games. Although it's a crazy span, there is no point of this comparison. Larry Bird is just straight up the better player.

I am somewhere between the choice C and the choice D.

[davehos]

Larry Bird

Cold Blooded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NIKK_OFvFY&t=5m0s - "I'm getting the ball right here and I'm going to shoot it."


Basketball Jesus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgPpTvX86n8

[bizil]

To think about it, Lebron v. Durant is probably the closest we will get to Magic v. Bird. Hope this rivalry goes on for a long time.

That's an interesting point! Everybody knows Bron has major elements of Magic in his game. But Bron also has some Pippen, Big O, and Dr. J. With the body of Karl Malone. KD to me is a mix of Gervin, T-Mac, and YES even Larry Bird. Bird was the premier great shooter-scorer in his era. Durant is currently that today. Bird and Durant can also play SG, SF, and PF too. But the thing with Bird is he's arguably the greatest rebounding SF ever AND along with Bron is the greatest passing SF ever. Bird was an epic scorer and epic all around player in one. KD is an epic scorer and very good all around player at this point. But KD is getting better and better each year. KD is such a devastating mismatch problem that I could see one taking him over Bird. But for me, Im gonna lean to Bird at this point. Bird could dominate a game without being a dominant scorer. Durant as of now isn't quite on that level. But frankly, its very close to call.

But I WILL say that the only SF's peak value wise I would take for sure over Durant are Bron and Bird. Baylor, Barry, Pippen, and Hondo all changed the game, but I would take KD even over them. I think Durant's ever evolving versatility and all around play has him past Nique, King, English, Dantley, Pierce, etc. I'm not talking GOAT of course. But in terms of the BEST PLAYERS to play SF, I can only say for sure that Bron and Bird are better. I got Durant and Dr. J at the same level, but maybe would lean to KD. Doc was also a very good all around player to go with being an epic scorer, just like Durant.

[JBrizzy]

Bird for me. I see Durant as a great scorer but that's it.

[knicksman]

Bird for me. I see Durant as a great scorer but that's it.

im pretty sure bird would rather be jordan, i mean durant. Its just that he doesnt have the athleticism to be like them.

[NumberSix]

Bosh and Aldridge are better than Durant right now.

[Combat Wombat]

This quote above was in 2012 from Pauk, before LeBron's repeat. So LeBron can pass Bird without the hardware, but Durant can't based on his individual play? Durant has very clearly been better this season than LeBron was in 2012, 2013 is arguable.

Nice hypocrisy Pauk, I would expect nothing less of you

:applause:

Pauk avoiding this like the plague.

[elementally morale]

D and it isn't even close.

[elementally morale]

To think about it, Lebron v. Durant is probably the closest we will get to Magic v. Bird. Hope this rivalry goes on for a long time.

If only for a short time, but McGrady vs. Kobe was a lot closer on a personal level -- not in terms of contending though.

[knicksman]

To think about it, Lebron v. Durant is probably the closest we will get to Magic v. Bird. Hope this rivalry goes on for a long time.

more like bird vs jordan. people thinks its close coz of stats but impact wise, durant is on another level

[Budadiiii]

C+

[moe94]

D and it isn't even close.

Explain yourself. You really think there is no way Durant can be ranked higher? He's 25 with a game that will age like wine and Bird's career was cut short. If you think there is no chance for him to surpass him, then please explain why.

[midatlantic09]

A

Durant is BY FAR better than Bird ever was and it's not even close. The only thing Bird can do better is shoot 3's.

Durant is the better ball handler, 10x more athletic, has way more moves, is a better defender, can play 4 positions, can score whenever he wants to, can run the point, etc. .....it's not even close who is the better ball player.

[MrC1991]

C. I'm going Larry Legend right now because hes produced results and we can look over his entire career Bird was a once in a lifetime talent and one of the most well rounded players ever. Durant is a special talent and I would not be surprised at all if he surpasses bird in terms of career numbers, accolades, chips. Just gotta wait and see how it all plays out.

[KyrieTheFuture]

A

Durant is BY FAR better than Bird ever was and it's not even close. The only thing Bird can do better is shoot 3's.

Durant is the better ball handler, 10x more athletic, has way more moves, is a better defender, can play 4 positions, can score whenever he wants to, can run the point, etc. .....it's not even close who is the better ball player.
Does your username stand for the year you started watching basketball? Or the year you were born?

[riseagainst]

A

Durant is BY FAR better than Bird ever was and it's not even close. The only thing Bird can do better is shoot 3's.

Durant is the better ball handler, 10x more athletic, has way more moves, is a better defender, can play 4 positions, can score whenever he wants to, can run the point, etc. .....it's not even close who is the better ball player.

:roll:

let's just forget rebounding and passing and playing off the ball passing.

Durant might be a better pure shooter than Bird though. But Bird is just better at everything else.

[midatlantic09]

Does your username stand for the year you started watching basketball? Or the year you were born?

I've been watching hoops since the late 80s and have concluded that Bird is one of the most overrated players in the history of the game.

[riseagainst]

I've been watching hoops since the late 80s and have concluded that Bird is one of the most overrated players in the history of the game.

:roll:

[GOATbe]

I've been watching hoops since the late 80s and have concluded that Bird is one of the most overrated players in the history of the game.
:applause:MJ too

[r0drig0lac]

I've been watching hoops since the late 80s and have concluded that Bird is one of the most overrated players in the history of the game.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/biggums.png:lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I've been watching hoops since the late 80s

No you haven't.

[KyrieTheFuture]

I've been watching hoops since the late 80s and have concluded that Bird is one of the most overrated players in the history of the game.
Why? Not a single human being who was watching ball in the 80s would call Bird overrated.

[kurple]

Let's be real, Bird would be Scal level realistically with an absolute best case scenario of poor man's prime Peja. Game evolved too much for him. You can't be a nonathletic white dude in this era with beasts like Love leading the league in rebounding.

On the flip side, throw Durant into the video game 80s and he's putting up 2K numbers on 60+% shooting with ease.

Durant is quite clearly better than Bird ever was.

calm down, was the Love part not a hint enough?

trying too hard

[tontoz]

Bird was an old rookie (23) and his career was cut short due to his back injury. I think Durant could end up surpassing him careerwise.

But a big thing that made Bird (and Jordan) legends is what they did in the playoffs. They produced big time when the heat was on. Durant really needs to show out in the playoffs to be seen on the same level as Bird. Regular season alone isn't going to do it.

[Trollsmasher]

I don't know. I mean, Larry is Larry, but Kevin is the GOAT.

[Pushxx]

Why the hell do people still use PER, the most arbitrary bullshit statistic, to compare superstars? You think Hollinger's opinionated pre-determined value of each stat in a complicated formula means anything specific?

Oh and I'll take Larry Bird for my team please.

[SacJB Shady]

Most of Durant's points are just free throws

[SHAQisGOAT]

Just imagine ISH in 1991-92 season. After Bird's near 50 points triple-double game(49/14/12/4/1);
Bird da GOAT, even he's not the same after the injury and see what he's capable of!!

Or imagine the end of 1986-87 season, last 16 games; Bird 33.3/9.1/9.0/2.0/1.1 on .569/.390/.935.

Also there is a span which he averaged 34.2/9.4/6.3/1.6/0.6 on .599/.644/.888 in 12 consecutive games in 1985-86 season.

I posted those numbers because I do not see the point of comparing a retired goat level player and a young player which is having a sick run due to that run.

---

Durant has been amazing since Westbrook went down. He's a 38.1/5.9/6.0/1.7/0.7 guy on .520/.394/.882 in his last 12 games. Although it's a crazy span, there is no point of this comparison. Larry Bird is just straight up the better player.

I am somewhere between the choice C and the choice D.


:applause:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Some ignorant children actually saying Durant plays better D than Bird? :facepalm Not even close :oldlol:

Again, Bird led several times in DWS and was always at the top, was always amongst the leaders in DRtg, continued in the playoffs, turned the Celtics into one of the best defensive teams (from one of the worst) from the get-go, Celtics always a considerable better defensive team with him on the court as oppose for the contrary. Look for the other forwards to do such things and you'll find names such as Pippen, Duncan, Rodman, Bobby Jones, KG.....
Larry's one of the greatest team defenders ever, as he had terrific defensive IQ and fundamentals, knew when to double team, how to draw charges, played the passing lanes, two of the quickest hands for steals and some weakside blocks, knew how to stop fastbreaks, battled for defensive rebounds, good post m2m D with strength, quick hands and footwork, above average on the perimeter, and has to be said that he was always more of a stretch 4 "forced" to play strictly SF because the Celtics needed it, even when listed as PF in his younger years he guarded many SF's (and played more on the outside on offense), even dudes like Doctor J.. Durant's more athletic but can't really do all of those things and he's not on that level, he's been improving his defense yes and gets pretty underrated as far as that but doesn't really compare here.
Larry could actually deeply impact and change the outcome of games with his diverse defense, like on this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI

This is great defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjwqGwQEDbs&t=9m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI&t=11m55s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjwqGwQEDbs&t=6m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSUcqeOO_Ek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Ixy8Uttq0

This is straight up shit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkJGcHT9zoQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSk-rOSoQyg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm3TFRgYVK0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb7NX978uxU&t=0m37s

Now, stop talking nonsense.:no:

[SHAQisGOAT]

I've been watching hoops since the late 80s


:roll: :roll:


Why? Not a single human being who was watching ball in the 80s would call Bird overrated.

:applause:

[SHAQisGOAT]

A

Durant is BY FAR better than Bird ever was and it's not even close. The only thing Bird can do better is shoot 3's.

Durant is the better ball handler, 10x more athletic, has way more moves, is a better defender, can play 4 positions, can score whenever he wants to, can run the point, etc. .....it's not even close who is the better ball player.

Some of the ignorance in this thread is really dumbfounding :facepalm
Durant's great and has been playing out of his mind but he's not even on the same level as peak/prime Bird.
Also, KD's been closing in on him but not even better than Lebron at this point, let's not overreact, and Bird's better than Lebron, you do the math (everything as far as prime/peak as overall players considering everything).

Only main "thing" comparable on this one is scoring, and I wouldn't call either one superior, Durant's a more willing scorer yes (because he's not close to Bird in other areas also though) but Bird had more diversity and more ways to do it.. they both can shoot out of this world but Durant can't post-up like Bird did, doesn't have the same soft touch from close range with both hands, can't use the same type of footwork, doesn't have the same IQ, can't move off the ball like Larry.
Yes Durant's definitely more athletic but not even close 10x more athletic lol, just stop. Larry was a nice athlete before his last injury-plagued years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX8ipponmSc
Better ball-handler? Maybe, but Bird didn't get to carry/palm like him.
Defense is not even that close, goes to Bird easily, explained in a previous post above. Rebounding and passing also to Bird, not that close again.
:lol All I know is that Bird was more all-around and could gel and work with just about any type of player, knowing when to "step up" and when to "step down", he rarely wasted possessions or took "dumb seconds" off the clock, worked with no wasted motion, made teammates and teams better, always knew what to do and what he was going to do, could do everything on a basketball court, and if one thing wasn't working it didn't matter because he impacted the game in several ways, greatly.
Plus, Larry's a proven winner, maintained or raised his game when the pressure was at its highest, willed teams to wins and rings, turned a franchise around, Bird surpasses him in intangibles too, easily.

[knicksman]

I've been watching hoops since the late 80s and have concluded that Bird is one of the most overrated players in the history of the game.


bro these idiots overrate the sht out of all-around players. It happened to wilt/lebron/oscar or iversonn/rose/arenas

[midatlantic09]

No you haven't.

Actually, I have. I'm not a young guy.

[DirkNowitzki41]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

durant aint even better than dirk... dont even bring up larry legend

[midatlantic09]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

durant aint even better than dirk... dont even bring up larry legend

Now you're just being ridiculous.

[knicksman]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

durant aint even better than dirk... dont even bring up larry legend

your boy already admitted durant is better

[Lebron23]

KD is currently the flavor of the month. Both Bird and Lebron are 2x NBA Finals MVP's, and multiple time MVP Winners. ( Bird with 3 - Lebron with 4)

[knicksman]

lebron will have wilt like career or even worse. His last ring was last season yet will have 7 RS mvps when its all said and done:rockon:

[Lebron23]

lebron will have wilt like career or even worse. His last ring was last season yet will have 7 RS mvps when its all said and done:rockon:


Thank God you cannot predict the future. You are Nostradouchebag.

[knicksman]

Thank God you cannot predict the future. You are Nostradouchebag.

hey you report my thread?

[Bob Dole]

Bird, that Shaq attack guy gave you idiots enough reasons so I won't list any.

He's a good poster y'all should listen to him to get educated on this sport called basketball.

[Mure]

Bird and it isn't close.

[Human Error]

You are an idiot if you think a peak Bird was better than '14 Durant. Guys got more athletic and Durant would be easily shooting over 50% from beyond the arc against the defense that Bird faced. Bird was a better passer but that is probably all.

[iamgine]

Has Durant now not been playing equal to/better than peak Bird for some time?

[bizil]

To eclipse Bird peak wise at SF, u gotta be a great scorer, great passer, great rebounder MINIMUM! Bron is all of that and a great defender who's a freak athlete. So Bron is really the only SF I could argue being better than Bird peak wise. Durant has the scoring and rebounding covered, he's great at both. On defense, I think Durant defends wings better out on the floor. But Bird is better defending bigger forwards in the trenches. KD is still improving and HASN'T hit his peak. So who knows how good he will be at his ABSOLUTE BEST!

So for KD to be better than Bird, he would have to get his passing skills to TRUE point forward quality. And if he became a lockdown defender out of the blue. Actually GOAT wise (which is the main list), Durant may have a better chance to pass Bird by. If KD plays a long time and wins some rings, I think he will pass Bird by GOAT wise. But peak wise, Bird is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to top at SF. Bron is the only SF with a case over Bird in my book. But peak wise, I think KD has a case in the top five along with Doc and Baylor.

[oarabbus]

To eclipse Bird peak wise at SF, u gotta be a great scorer, great passer, great rebounder MINIMUM! Bron is all of that and a great defender who's a freak athlete. So Bron is really the only SF I could argue being better than Bird peak wise. Durant has the scoring and rebounding covered, he's great at both. On defense, I think Durant defends wings better out on the floor. But Bird is better defending bigger forwards in the trenches. KD is still improving and HASN'T hit his peak. So who knows how good he will be at his ABSOLUTE BEST!

So for KD to be better than Bird, he would have to get his passing skills to TRUE point forward quality. And if he became a lockdown defender out of the blue. Actually GOAT wise (which is the main list), Durant may have a better chance to pass Bird by. If KD plays a long time and wins some rings, I think he will pass Bird by GOAT wise. But peak wise, Bird is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to top at SF. Bron is the only SF with a case over Bird in my book. But peak wise, I think KD has a case in the top five along with Doc and Baylor.

This... Durant isn't even the same type of player as Larry since he can't pass like him or run the offense. Great, great scorer, but not as complete of a player as Bird.

[pastis]

peak durant....is just wow... i mean this year mvp was just spectacular.

Bird has the far better career right now, and i think that duran wont reach brids success, but neverforget that bird always had at least 2 hof around him, one of them in the top20-25. durant hasnt.

[Lebronxrings]

if peak durant gets shut down by 6'4 tony allen, i'm not very impressed.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Bird no question
much higher peak (top 5), better prime so far but KD can still extend his and just way more skilled. Larry was flatout the best SF ever

[c5terror]

I think this is a good time to ask this question as Kevin Durant is going on a tear.

As for how come we should be comparing KD to a literal Legend, Larry Bird's peak PER was 27.8. Kevin Durant has exceeded that since last season. Durant has also exceeded Bird's PPG and TS% since last season. Both in the regular season and in the playoff. Bird also played in a faster paced team/era. Durant has just entered his 7th season at 25 years old.

What do you believe:

A. Durant is already a better player than bird. Just lacking the championships.

B. They're about equal.

C. Bird's still better but give it some time and KD's got a chance.

D. Bird's just better, there's really nothing KD can reasonably do to exceed him.

Jesus in the playoffs vs Mr.Regular season?
Only knows ISO and Shoot 3's..
the answer is?

I have a feeling that kevin might suffer paul george snap-leg injury but that's just me thinking on every player that have thin legs and jump so high and play so hard

[Tking714]

Bird is a better basketball player, Durant is a slightly better all around scorer. Shooting is debatable but I give the edge to Larry.

Larry and Westbrook would go further than Durant and Westbrook though. As Durant and Westbrook are both ball stoppers.

[fandarko]

Let's be real, Bird would be Scal level realistically with an absolute best case scenario of poor man's prime Peja. Game evolved too much for him. [/COLOR]

Eitheir you are just ****ing with us, or you are 20+

[Cold soul]

Bird by far higher peak play and much better player.

[colts19]

KD is a great player, but were talking Larry Legend here. KD doesn't have the physical and mental toughness Larry Legend has.

It's really hard for people to realize how great Larry was if they didn't watch him in his prime.

[Milbuck]

Kevin Durant at 25
Regular season: 32/7/6/1/1 on 64% TS, 29.8 PER, .295 WS/48

Playoffs: 30/9/4/1/1 on 57% TS, 22.6 PER, .145 WS/48

Larry Bird at 25
Regular season: 23/11/6/2/1 on 56% TS, 22.6 PER, .205 WS/48

Playoffs: 18/13/6/2/1 on 47% TS, 17.9 PER, .154 WS/48


Bird currently has the higher peak...but suggesting KD has no chance of surpassing Bird's highest level is pretty unreasonable considering he's only 25 and reasonably has 4-5 years to improve. There was a stretch from January-March where Durant was legitimately playing at arguably a GOAT scoring level. Also the guy's game is built to age gracefully, barring any severe injuries he should easily pass Bird in longevity..

[pauk]

Larry Bird is considered the greatest SF of all time and a top 6 player of all time.... does that answer your question? :)

KD has that talent though, kindof.... he has a chance to have that type of a career....

[fragokota]

I'll stick with Larry Legend, thank you...

[3ball]

bird used to crush pippen, rodman, dominique, jordan, magic, drexler, kersey, dr. j, worthy, michael cooper, YOU NAME IT....

it would be amazing what he would do to today's creampuffs, especially with the 3-point shot being emphasized and all the extra strategy we now have to get guys open for those shots consistently.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird > LeBron > Durant... Just to put it in perspective

Larry has a top5 all-time peak (along with Shaq, MJ, Kareem and Wilt) and the only SF that can begin to **** with that is LeBron (as of right now ofc, Duran't still pretty young also).

[StephHamann]

[B]Bird > LeBron > Durant... Just to put it in perspective



Came to say this :applause:

[juju151111]

Bird > LeBron > Durant... Just to put it in perspective

Larry has a top5 all-time peak (along with Shaq, MJ, Kareem and Wilt) and the only SF that can begin to **** with that is LeBron (as of right now ofc, Duran't still pretty young also).
How is Bird better then LJ.

[Champ]

How is Bird better then LJ.

Shooting (Outside, mid-range, and post)
Rebounding
Passing
Help defense
Off-ball movement
Clutch
Leadership
Toughness

[juju151111]

Shooting (Outside, mid-range, and post)
Rebounding
Passing
Help defense
Off-ball movement
Clutch
Leadership
Toughness
LJ can shoot and has led his team to 5 finals. LJ is the better defender and finish around the basket.
What makes Bird tougher.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

As peak players, I would take Bird over LeBron for the simple reason being, dude had no weaknesses - which include intangibles (no random meltdowns, always reliable in the clutch, etc).

LeBron still has the opportunity to dethrone Larry on an ALL TIME scale, and if I had to bet, probably will within the next couple years, but at their VERY BEST, I am taking the legend every ****ing time.

[dazzer87]

Durant needs to pass Melo first.
THIS

[ArbitraryWater]

As peak players, I would take Bird over LeBron for the simple reason being, dude had no weaknesses - which include intangibles (no random meltdowns, always reliable in the clutch, etc).

LeBron still has the opportunity to dethrone Larry on an ALL TIME scale, and if I had to bet, probably will within the next couple years, but at their VERY BEST, I am taking the legend every ****ing time.

Nah he did have his moments.. And defense is a weakness.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nah he did have his moments.. And defense is a weakness.

In his prime, dude was able to make a couple All Defensive Teams. So no, his defense was NOT a "weakness".

[pauk]

As peak players, I would take Bird over LeBron for the simple reason being, dude had no weaknesses - which include intangibles (no random meltdowns, always reliable in the clutch, etc).

LeBron still has the opportunity to dethrone Larry on an ALL TIME scale, and if I had to bet, probably will within the next couple years, but at their VERY BEST, I am taking the legend every ****ing time.

1. Bird had a weakness (most notably defensively), Lebrons only "weakness" is that he aint shooting over 80% FT.
2. Bird had "random meltdowns" aswell, just like any player in NBA history, if you want examples i will be happy to oblige.
3. Lebron is just as reliable in the clutch, he has also hit more gamewinners than him if that means anything to you, Lebron has 18, Bird has 15... which is only less than Reggie, Kobe & Jordan: http://basketball.wikia.com/wiki/User:Hornean/Archive/NBA_and_WNBA/Game-Winning_Shooters

[SHAQisGOAT]

Nah he did have his moments.. And defense is a weakness.


Every player has those "moments" but Bird's still one of the very best ever in the clutch, if you think/say otherwise you're just lying to yourself or you're a big ignorant.


Defense, a weakness!? :oldlol:

You don't know what you're talking about :facepalm

Bird was a great team defender, he was a good post-defender, and he held his own more than well on the perimeter, before age and serious injuries.

Celtics were one of the worst teams in the league as far as defense (and not only), before Bird got there. When he arrived, with basically the same roster and new coach Bill Fitch, Boston instantly turned around to become one of the best defensive teams; Larry was 1st in DWS and 6th in DRtg, as the best defensive player on the team at that point, with no McHale, DJ or Parish yet even.

He led the league in DWS 4 times, 7x top5; once was 2nd in DRtg, 6x top10... Now go find me other forwards who did that, please... You'll find names like Scottie Pippen, Tim Duncan, Dennis Rodman, Bobby Jones, Kevin Garnett, and few more if any. Bird was doing that on the regular, guess that's just a fluke, huh? :confusedshrug:
He was doing the same stuff in the post-season. Plus, from 1980-85 he had the most combined DWS in the league, you won't find any other SF EVER doing that in a 5-year period: http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.pt/2011/08/all-defensive-teams-using-defensive-win.html

Larry made 3 all-defensive teams in a time where you didn't get there by name/fame, and tbh he should've easily been there more often (and he would've in this era, considerably).

He played the passing lanes really well, picked pockets, had two of the quickest hands, he protected the paint, had a few blocks, won charges, knew when to double team and was great when roaming around, rarely got lost on rotations, knew how to funnel his man into crowded areas, hustled like crazy, was smart as hell, had size and strength in the post...
Only thing going on against him was the lack of lateral quickness on the perimeter, but he still was very mobile for a 6'9 player despite what some ignorant people might say, and the fundamentals and smarts were at ridiculous levels.
He had plenty of clutch defensive moments too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U

As far as m2m perimeter defense, you can make a case that it was a weakness BUT that's when he got older and began to have "problems", plus that's mostly against those very athletic wings which he was sometimes "forced" to guard (and, again, when he was younger he did a good job guarding guys like Erving, Marques, Dantley...), and I say that because Bird was always more of a (terrific all-around, stretch) 4, but he had to play more as a SF, and spent his best years at it, because McHale was becoming great and they had no better options...
Ofc, Bird with his game, was beasting at numerous "roles", top5 peak, best in the game, even getting older and collecting some injuries (athletically he was obviously better suited to play the 3, more often, at an earlier stage)...
You can look at plenty of good defensive players and tell me how many 6'10, 235 lbs PF's you would have guarding really athletic wings... and you won't even put your best offensive player guarding the best opponent, plus Bird was easily more impactful at roaming around and team defense > m2m defense.

[pauk]

^ Shaq, Bird was not a bad defender, but compared to Lebron.... its weakness... just like Lebron aint a bad FT shooter, but compared to Bird... its a weakness... thats what i mean with "weakness" in my post at least, dunno what Arbitrary said.

[russwest0]

^ Shaq, Bird was not a bad defender, but compared to Lebron.... its weakness... just like Lebron aint a bad FT shooter, but compared to Bird... its a weakness... thats what i mean with "weakness" in my post at least, dunno what Arbitrary said.

Compared to what version of LeBron?

Because these past two years his defense has been pretty bad.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

1. Bird had a weakness (most notably defensively), Lebrons only "weakness" is that he aint shooting over 80% FT.

As noted, in his prime, defense was NOT a weakness of his. You're thinking of Magic.


2. Bird had "random meltdowns" aswell, just like any player in NBA history, if you want examples i will be happy to oblige.

We're talking Bird at his absolute BEST, or in other words, his peak, correct? You won't be able to find ANY "Where's Waldo" moments to the degree LeBron has had.


3. Lebron is just as reliable in the clutch, he has also hit more gamewinners than him if that means anything to you

No he isn't - and game winners aren't the sole determiner of "clutch", either.

[russwest0]

LeBron's biggest weakness as of late has been defense. Maybe dropping some weight will help him out there though.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

^ Shaq, Bird was not a bad defender, but compared to Lebron.... its weakness... just like Lebron aint a bad FT shooter, but compared to Bird... its a weakness... thats what i mean with "weakness" in my post at least, dunno what Arbitrary said.

LeBron's weaknesses aren't from the line. They mostly stem from his lack of offball play, and bizarre mental lapses.

Dude has the most "WTF are you doing?" moments of any superstar in history, besides maybe Kobe.

[SHAQisGOAT]

1. Bird had a weakness (most notably defensively), Lebrons only "weakness" is that he aint shooting over 80% FT.
2. Bird had "random meltdowns" aswell, just like any player in NBA history, if you want examples i will be happy to oblige.
3. Lebron is just as reliable in the clutch, he has also hit more gamewinners than him if that means anything to you, Lebron has 18, Bird has 15... which is only less than Reggie, Kobe & Jordan: http://basketball.wikia.com/wiki/User:Hornean/Archive/NBA_and_WNBA/Game-Winning_Shooters

Again... Defense, weakness?! :no:

If anything one would say athleticism, even though all of that gets overblown too often... before age and (mostly) serious injuries, Larry was a nice athlete; he was pretty mobile at 6'10, 220+ lbs, he was very coordinated, he had two of the quickest hands, had terrific hand-eye coordination, very strong, great conditioning and stamina, same vertical as a Karl Malone, deceptively quick (especially in small spaces):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX8ipponmSc

Regarding m2m perimeter defense (because of the lack of great lateral quickness), I've already adressed it before:



As far as m2m perimeter defense, you can make a case that it was a weakness BUT that's when he got older and began to have "problems", plus that's mostly against those very athletic wings which he was sometimes "forced" to guard (and, again, when he was younger he did a good job guarding guys like Erving, Marques, Dantley...), and I say that because Bird was always more of a (terrific all-around, stretch) 4, but he had to play more as a SF, and spent his best years at it, because McHale was becoming great and they had no better options...
Ofc, Bird with his game, was beasting at numerous "roles", top5 peak, best in the game, even getting older and collecting some injuries (athletically he was obviously better suited to play the 3, more often, at an earlier stage)...
You can look at plenty of good defensive players and tell me how many 6'10, 235 lbs PF's you would have guarding really athletic wings... and you won't even put your best offensive player guarding the best opponent, plus Bird was easily more impactful at roaming around and team defense > m2m defense.



^ Shaq, Bird was not a bad defender, but compared to Lebron.... its weakness... just like Lebron aint a bad FT shooter, but compared to Bird... its a weakness... thats what i mean with "weakness" in my post at least, dunno what Arbitrary said.

No, he was not, in fact he was a pretty good defensive player...

1st of all, you can't rate players that way ("compared to"), either he's good or he's not, or else we'll be doing stuff like comparing every centers' defense to Bill Russell's, and that way most of them will be weak at it.
And with that said, not even compared to LeBron is it a weakness... Bird was a better team defender and even post-defender. LBJ's clearly a better overall defensive player, but it's not by all that like you make it seem, and it's mostly due to athleticism (which plays a considerable role here).

Yea, I also won't compare Bron's FT shooting to Bird's... Larry's one of the best shooters ever (if not the best, overall) and, again, you can't rate players that way. So no, I wouldn't say James' FT shooting is a weakness.

[finchyyy]

C-D. Alhough, Bird would play more PF than SF in the league today. But prime Bird is better than Durant at everything pretty much, except handles, which isn't a big deal anyway as a forward.

[ArbitraryWater]

In his prime, dude was able to make a couple All Defensive Teams. So no, his defense was NOT a "weakness".

Nope, wasn't in his prime...

Clearly was a weakness. Slow, couldn't guard man-to-man, decent in the lanes..


LeBron's weaknesses aren't from the line. They mostly stem from his lack of offball play, and bizarre mental lapses.

Dude has the most "WTF are you doing?" moments of any superstar in history, besides maybe Kobe.

I have 2011 as "WTF are you doing?" and besides that :confusedshrug:

[PsychoBe]

Nope, wasn't in his prime...

Clearly was a weakness. Slow, couldn't guard man-to-man, decent in the lanes..



I have 2011 as "WTF are you doing?" and besides that :confusedshrug:

2007 finals was a putrid performance, 2008 vs the celtics, 2014 finals (zero impact with career low assists and almost averaged a career high in turnovers),

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nope, wasn't in his prime...

Clearly was a weakness. Slow, couldn't guard man-to-man, decent in the lanes..

What do you mean "nope"? The discussion is about Bird at his best (his prime). Dude was 27 when he made an all-defensive team. Same age Kobe was dropping 35 a game and Bron won a first chip. :confusedshrug:

[ralph_i_el]

Take Ryan Anderson, give him elite basketball sense and off the bounce creativity.

That's good for 25/8/8 on 60%TS

I mean, a healthy Anderson can put up 18-20 and he's an unathletic shooter with Bird-esque shooting form

Bird would be the best stretch 4 in the L today. He'd have the greenlight to shoot 6+ 3's a game

[SHAQisGOAT]

Nope, wasn't in his prime...

Clearly was a weakness. Slow, couldn't guard man-to-man, decent in the lanes..



Great counter-argument :rolleyes: You don't even know what you're talking about though :facepalm You've CLEARLY never watched nearly enough from Bird, yet keep talking shit (like an ignorant child) as if you know everything, just because of your love for LeBron :oldlol:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Take Ryan Anderson, give him elite basketball sense and off the bounce creativity.

That's good for 25/8/8 on 60%TS

I mean, a healthy Anderson can put up 18-20 and he's an unathletic shooter with Bird-esque shooting form

Bird would be the best stretch 4 in the L today. He'd have the greenlight to shoot 6+ 3's a game


More like take Ryan Anderson and give him crazy passing skills, even better overall shooting, better athleticism (Ryan's not the overall athlete Bird was), capability to hustle "til death", extreme toughness and better rebounding fundamentals, very quick hands, terrific footwork, elite basketball IQ, ice-cold veins, unreal understanding of the game and great leadership... then we could start talking.

Peak Bird would be the best player in the league today... Shit, Larry had a top5 all-time peak.

[colts19]

I have seen a lot of players that look as good as Legend, until their on the same floor. Head to head, then all the sudden they just not as good as the Legend.

The OKC thunder would be much better with a prime Bird than with KD. Bird would just make everyone else better and Westbrooke with Bird would just work better.

[bizil]

In terms of Bird in the L today, he would be NO WORSE than the 2nd best player on Earth. It comes down to him and Lebron and I feel u could argue either way. And for me it doesn't matter if he plays SF or PF, he would dominate at either spot. However, Bird as a stretch PF has the capability to be a top 5 rebounder in the L like Kevin Love. But Bird actually has many SF traits to go with it. And I like the way Bird can overpower most SF's in addition to beating them with skill and IQ. Basically Bird was the perfect combo forward if there ever was one.

When it comes to Durant, he's getting better and better. It seems like the top four GOAT SF's could end up being Bron, Bird, Dr. J, and Durant. But in order to join those three and pass guys like Barry, Hondo, and Pippen, he needs to win some rings flat out. Or he will be in that Baylor and Nique territory where many haters will claim they weren't capable of leading a title team, which is BULLSHIT!!

[Harison]

Give about 2 weeks for KD>Jordan thread :roll:
Seems so :rolleyes:

Oh, and Bird >>> Durant, and there is nothing kid can do about it.

[Micku]

I have seen a lot of players that look as good as Legend, until their on the same floor. Head to head, then all the sudden they just not as good as the Legend.

The OKC thunder would be much better with a prime Bird than with KD. Bird would just make everyone else better and Westbrooke with Bird would just work better.

Well, Bird would give OKC the post player. They could go inside and out more. Bird said that he'll probably play more PF than SF in today's game. That may help out OKC a little bit.

They have different games tho. Durant keeps improving year by year. I would say he's already a better scorer than Bird was, and he improved on his passing skills. He's more of a creator now. He'll never be like Bird like passing, but he drastically improved. We'll see what happens.

[c5terror]

1. Bird had a weakness (most notably defensively), Lebrons only "weakness" is that he aint shooting over 80% FT.
2. Bird had "random meltdowns" aswell, just like any player in NBA history, if you want examples i will be happy to oblige.
3. Lebron is just as reliable in the clutch, he has also hit more gamewinners than him if that means anything to you, Lebron has 18, Bird has 15... which is only less than Reggie, Kobe & Jordan: http://basketball.wikia.com/wiki/User:Hornean/Archive/NBA_and_WNBA/Game-Winning_Shooters

-Bron got so many weakness, doesn't run the court if no call was called, always cry on the ref while his opponent score a fastbreak basket.

-Bron travel too often, luckily ref only call a few..

-Rebound, this guy doesn't box-out doesn't hustle, just waiting for opponent miss shot and will get angry on his teammates if he doesn't get the rebound.
Larry produce tons of 2nd chance point by grabbing offensive boards that lebron's lacking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZhm0wcwn0c

-Got toast by patty mills, barea, marion, terry, parker
-doesn't take advantage of miss match, parker just staring at him and what does lebron do? Pass to his teammates who's on the shooting slump.:roll:

-lebron footwork sux
-lebron off-theball offense sux
-lebron defense sux.