Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson - Complete Career Head-to-Head Stats

[dankok8]

79-80 Season

12/28/1979

Magic: 23/8/6/0/4 (7/14, 9/10) W
Bird: 16/4/3 (7/15, 2/3)

Lakers win 123-105.

1/13/1980

Magic: 1/3/2/0/2 (0/2, 1/2) W
Bird: 14/12/1 (7/12, 0/0)

Lakers in 100-98. Kareem has 33/12 game.


81-82 Season

2/14/1982

Magic: 19/10/8 (6/11, 7/9)
Bird: 12/9/9 (4/11, 4/5) W

Celtics win 108-103.


82-83 Season

1/20/1983

Magic: 14/9/10 (5/10, 4/4)
Bird: 21/13/8 (9/22, 3/3) W

Celtics win 110-95.

2/23/1983

Magic: 20/13/10 (9/21, 2/3)
Bird: 32/17/9 (13/23, 4/6) W

Celtics win 113-104.


83-84 Season

2/8/1984

Magic: 20/8/10/?/6 (9/13, 2/2) W
Bird: 29/11/7 (12/19, 5/5)

Lakers win 111-109.

2/24/1984

Magic: 9/8/18/?/3 (4/11, 1/2) W
Bird: 14/11/5/2 (6/12, 2/2)

Lakers win 116-108. Kareem has 31/7/5 game.


'84 Playoffs

Game 1

Magic: 18/6/10/0/4 (7/11, 4/4) W
Bird: 24/14/5 (7/17, 9/11)

Lakers win 115-109. Kareem has 32/8/5 game on 71% shooting in a dominant effort.

Game 2

Magic: 27/10/9/1/0 (10/14, 7/7)
Bird: 27/13/3/2 (8/22, 11/15) W

Celtics win 124-121 in OT. Johnson stupidly burns a timeout and then lets the clock run out at the end of regulation. In OT Celtics use the chance they get to win the game.

Game 3

Magic: 14/11/21/1/1 (4/6, 6/10) W
Bird: 30/7/2/1 (9/16, 12/15)

Lakers win in a huge blowout 137-104.

Game 4

Magic: 20/11/17/0/2 (8/12, 4/7)
Bird: 29/21/2/0 (9/24, 10/10) W

Celtics win 129-125 in OT. Magic and Worthy each miss 2 free throws in the last seconds of regulation. Kareem has a dominant 32/8/6 game with 2 blocks and 4 steals. Lakers choke yet again.

Game 5

Magic: 10/5/13/2/2 (3/9, 4/6)
Bird: 34/17/2/1 (15/20, 2/4) W

In the infamous Heat game in the Boston Garden the Celtics obliterate the Lakers 121-103. Kareem and Worthy visibly struggled to breathe during the game. Bird dominated in the hellish conditions.

Game 6

Magic: 21/6/10/0/1 (10/18, 1/2) W
Bird: 28/14/8/3 (8/11, 12/13)

Lakers force a deciding Game 7 at the Garden winning 119-108. Kareem had another dominant performance with 30/10/5.

Game 7

Magic: 16/5/15/2/4 (5/14, 6/7)
Bird: 20/12/3/1 (6/18, 8/8) W

Celtics in 111-102 to win a championship. Bird wins Finals MVP. Kareem had 29/6/4 in the clincher.

Series Stats

Magic: 18.0 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 13.6 apg, 0.9 bpg, 2.0 spg on 56.0 %FG/61.2 %TS and 4.6 topg
Bird: 27.4 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 3.6 apg, 1.1 bpg, 2.1 spg on 48.4 %FG/59.5 %TS and 3.6 topg


84-85 Season

1/16/1985

Magic: 8/7/13/0/2 (4/11, 0/0)
Bird: 19/11/7/0/1 (9/16, 1/1) W

Celtics win 104-102. Kareem has 33/7/4 game.

2/17/1985

Magic: 37/3/13/0/2 (10/16, 17/19) W
Bird: 33/15/3/0/3 (14/22, 4/5)

Lakers win 117-111.


'85 Playoffs

Game 1

Magic: 19/1/12/0/3 (8/14, 3/4)
Bird: 19/6/9/0/3 (8/14, 2/2) W

Celtics win 148-114 in what becomes known as the Memorial Day Massacre. Kareem scores 12 points in 22 minutes and is never factor in this one.

Game 2

Magic: 14/4/13/0/3 (6/9, 2/4) W
Bird: 30/12/3/2/2 (9/21, 1/1)

Lakers win 109-102. Kareem has a monster 30/17/8 game with 3 blocks.

Game 3

Magic: 17/9/16/0/2 (6/13, 4/4) W
Bird: 20/7/3/0/1 (8/21, 4/5)

Lakers win 136-111 in a big blowout. Kareem puts up 26/14/7 on 10/13 shooting. McHale has 31/10 on 10/13 shooting as well.

Game 4

Magic: 20/11/12/0/2 (5/12, 10/11)
Bird: 26/11/5/1/3 (8/16, 10/12) W

Celtics win 107-105.

Game 5

Magic: 26/6/17/0/2 (11/20, 4/4) W
Bird: 20/7/7/1/1 (8/17, 3/5)

Lakers win 120-111. Kareem dominates with 36/7/7 with 3 blocks.

Game 6

Magic: 14/10/14/0/1 (5/15, 4/4) W
Bird: 28/10/3/0/1 (12/29, 4/5)

Lakers clinch the title with a 111-100 win. Kareem has 29/7/4 game once again on blistering efficiency. KAJ wins Finals MVP averaging 25.7/9.0/5.2 on 60.4% shooting for the series. McHale has 32/16 in a loss.

Series Stats

Magic: 18.3 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 14.0 apg, 0.0 bpg, 2.2 spg on 49.4 %FG/56.9 %TS and 3.3 topg
Bird: 23.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 5.0 apg, 0.7 bpg, 1.8 spg on 44.9 %FG/52.7 %TS and 2.2 topg


85-86 Season

1/22/1986

Magic: 15/1/6/0/3 (6/10, 3/3)
Bird: 21/12/7/0/3 (8/16, 4/4) W

Celtics win 110-95.

2/16/1986

Magic: 6/6/12/0/2 (0/4, 6/6)
Bird: 22/18/7/0/0 (7/17, 8/12) W

Celtics win 105-99.


86-87 Season

12/12/1986

Magic: 31/7/8/1/2 (13/25, 5/7) W
Bird: 26/3/6/1/0 (11/13, 3/3)

Lakers win 117-110.

2/15/1987

Magic: 39/7/10/0/2 (12/20, 14/15) W
Bird: 20/5/7/2/1 (7/12, 5/7)

Lakers in 106-103.


'87 Playoffs

Game 1

Magic: 29/8/13/1/2 (13/25, 3/3) W
Bird: 32/7/6/0/1 (14/25, 4/4)

Lakers win 126-113.

Game 2

Magic: 22/5/20/0/3 (10/17, 2/2) W
Bird: 23/10/4/1/1 (9/17, 4/5)

Lakers win in a blowout 141-122.

Game 3

Magic: 32/11/9/0/1 (12/18, 8/8)
Bird: 30/12/4/1/0 (10/24, 10/11) W

Celtics win 109-103.

Game 4

Magic: 29/8/5/0/1 (12/20, 5/6) W
Bird: 21/10/7/2/1 (7/19, 5/5)

Lakers in 107-106. Magic hits the infamous baby hook over Kevin McHale to give the Lakers a 3-1 series lead.

Game 5

Magic: 29/8/12/0/4 (12/21, 4/4)
Bird: 23/12/7/1/2 (7/18, 8/9) W

Celtics win 123-108 to stave off elimination. Boston gets 20+ point outings from all five of their starters.

Game 6

Magic: 16/8/19/1/3 (7/21, 2/2) W
Bird: 16/9/5/2/2 (6/16, 4/4)

Lakers clinch the title with a 106-93 win. 40-year old Kareem has a 32-point game and makes couple of key baskets late including a pair of free throws with 30 seconds left to close it out. DJ has a huge 3/10/5 game for Boston in a losing effort.

Series Stats

Magic: 26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, 0.3 bpg, 2.3 spg on 54.1 %FG/59.0 %TS and 2.2 topg
Bird: 24.2 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.2 bpg, 1.2 spg on 44.5 %FG/53.4 %TS and 3.0 topg


87-88 Season

12/11/1987

Magic: 18/8/17/0/2 (6/11, 5/6) W
Bird: 35/9/8/2/5 (14/26, 6/8)

Lakers win 115-114.

2/14/1988

Magic: 22/5/14/0/3 (9/19, 4/7) W
Bird: 25/17/4/1/0 (8/22, 9/11)

Lakers win 115-106.


89-90 Season

12/15/1989

Magic: 16/6/21/0/6 (4/12, 8/8) W
Bird: 21/12/2/0/3 (9/27, 2/2)

Lakers win 119-110.

2/18/1990

Magic: 30/4/13/0/1 (10/21, 7/7) W
Bird: 20/7/7/0/1 (9/17, 2/2)

Lakers in 116-110.


90-91 Season

2/15/1991

Magic: 21/9/16/1/1 (7/13, 6/8)
Bird: 11/11/11/0/2 (4/16, 2/2) W

Celtics win 98-85.



Cumulative Regular Season Stats

Magic: 19.4 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 11.4 apg on 49.6 %FG/59.0 %TS
Bird: 21.7 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 6.2 apg on 49.7 %FG/55.3 %TS

Lakers went 11-7 against the Celtics.

Cumulative Playoff Stats

Magic: 20.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 13.4 apg, 0.4 bpg, 2.2 spg on 53.3 %FG/59.0 %TS and 3.4 topg
Bird: 25.3 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.1 bpg, 1.5 spg on 46.0 %FG/55.5 %TS and 2.6 topg

Lakers went 2-1 in finals series and 11-8 in games against the Celtics.

[navy]

Why do people say Bird was better than Magic?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Why do people say Bird was better than Magic?
They're comparable, with edge going to Bird. When he was healthy at least. Bird has edge in scoring, rebounds, defense. Magic only really had edge in assists, and sometimes steals. Magic had more offensive threats in Kareem, and Worthy. Bird had defensive role players, shooters, and Kevin McHale. I think Larry at his peak was better, Magic had superior longevity.

[jlip]

Why do people say Bird was better than Magic?

Bird's peak was just epic. Also it seems as if that was the consensus until '87. Until then, Kareem was yet viewed as the leader of the Lakers. By '87, Bird had been "the man" or viewed as the leader of the Celtics for several years. It's also worth noting that so often when players are comparable, the edge in many people's minds is going to lean towards the one who scores more points.

[navy]

They're comparable, with edge going to Bird. When he was healthy at least. Bird has edge in scoring, rebounds, defense. Magic only really had edge in assists, and sometimes steals. Magic had more offensive threats in Kareem, and Worthy. Bird had defensive role players, shooters, and Kevin McHale. I think Larry at his peak was better, Magic had superior longevity.

The massive difference is assist, plus slightly in efficiency far makes up for Birds scoring though. In my opinion. They played different positions though.

[fpliii]

Cool, thanks!

[juju151111]

Magic was slightly better which I have always said.

[fpliii]

Magic was slightly better which I have always said.

How would you rank their top 10 combined seasons?

[Pointguard]

Bird's peak was just epic. Also it seems as if that was the consensus until '87. Until then, Kareem was yet viewed as the leader of the Lakers. By '87, Bird had been "the man" or viewed as the leader of the Celtics for several years. It's also worth noting that so often when players are comparable, the edge in many people's minds is going to lean towards the one who scores more points.
NAaa, not true. Definitely not true when one was winning more and influenced the playoffs more. Lebron/Durant.

Bird is definitely top 3 if you go mind/skillset/toughness. With two more healthy complete years I think he has to be in every bodies top five. That kind of Hirt him as a lot of guys have three great years.

A lot of people here were saying Kareem had a 12 year prime. The Magic years, were very distinct, from the other 9 years when Kareem had the energy to do the things he needed to. Coincidence?

[Odinn]

I do not care about regular season games. But let's ignore the fact that the Celtics were basically benchless in 1987 Finals and Bird was recovering from an injury, then let's use their numbers without context to prop up Magic.

[LAZERUSS]

I do not care about regular season games. But let's ignore the fact that the Celtics were basically benchless in 1987 Finals and Bird was recovering from an injury, then let's use their numbers without context to prop up Magic.

No agenda here...

Yep...and how about Bird in the 87-88 regular season?

Probably his PEAK.

29.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, .527 FG%, .916 FT%.

Now I haven't read anything about Bird injuries in that post-season, but he was simply pathetic. In the Piston series he put up these numbers:

19.8 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 6.2 apg, on...get this... a .351 FG%.


Now, how about Magic in the Finals against that SAME Piston team?

21.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 13.0 apg, and on a ... .550 FG%.



BTW, I get so sick-and-tired of those that somehow compare Bird's scoring to Magic's. Magic was clearly capable of scoring much more in his career. AND, take a look above...guess who had the two highest scoring H2H games?

Magic was clearly a better post-season performer, as well.


Magic has a legitimate Top-5 case, and with Lebron now entrenched in the Top-10, Bird is barely hanging on at the bottom of it ...


BTW, and speaking of agenda's...how about the OP's take on those H2H games. He just gushes about Bird's performances, and emphasizes Kareem's...but I guess the he completely forgot about the best player in those career H2H's...

[Odinn]

jlauber, no-one gives a f... about what you say. We all know memorized your agenda;
- Larry Bird, which has a case for having top 5 peak ever, isn't greater than Magic Johnson.
- Magic Johnson helped a lot Kareem to boost his legacy. So Kareem isn't that great.
- Then we reach the final step; Wilt is better than Kareem beucase Kareem's legacy is built on Magic.

There is no post of you that isn't related to Wilt agenda. Just stfu already.

[Rasheed1]

magic > bird

[Pointguard]

jlauber, no-one gives a f... about what you say. We all know memorized your agenda;
- Larry Bird, which has a case for having top 5 peak ever, isn't greater than Magic Johnson.
- Magic Johnson helped a lot Kareem to boost his legacy. So Kareem isn't that great.
- Then we reach the final step; Wilt is better than Kareem beucase Kareem's legacy is built on Magic.

There is no post of you that isn't related to Wilt agenda. Just stfu already.
You can't ask for context in one scenario and then in the next say it doesn't apply.

[dankok8]

No agenda here...

Yep...and how about Bird in the 87-88 regular season?

Probably his PEAK.

29.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, .527 FG%, .916 FT%.

Now I haven't read anything about Bird injuries in that post-season, but he was simply pathetic. In the Piston series he put up these numbers:

19.8 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 6.2 apg, on...get this... a .351 FG%.


Now, how about Magic in the Finals against that SAME Piston team?

21.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 13.0 apg, and on a ... .550 FG%.



BTW, I get so sick-and-tired of those that somehow compare Bird's scoring to Magic's. Magic was clearly capable of scoring much more in his career. AND, take a look above...guess who had the two highest scoring H2H games?

Magic was clearly a better post-season performer, as well.


Magic has a legitimate Top-5 case, and with Lebron now entrenched in the Top-10, Bird is barely hanging on at the bottom of it ...


BTW, and speaking of agenda's...how about the OP's take on those H2H games. He just gushes about Bird's performances, and emphasizes Kareem's...but I guess the he completely forgot about the best player in those career H2H's...

Magic played amazing in the 87-88 season and deserved the Finals MVP over Worthy as well (just as Kareem > Magic in 1980). However Bird was at least as good that entire season.

From 79-80 until 85-86 nobody ever would say that Magic is better than Bird. Larry finished higher in MVP voting every single year and was the clear-cut best player on his team unlike Magic.

Don't get me wrong Magic is my favorite all-time player (along with Lebron) but this Bird hate is ridiculous. Everyone has poor series. Look at Magic in '81 playoffs or '83 Finals or '84 Finals when he became Tragic Magic.

And no I wasn't emphasizing Kareem's performances (I wrote it on the bottom with the recaps...) but when I post about the '84 and '85 Finals it seems fair to mention his enormous contributions. I mean he destroyed the Celtics in so many of those games and was the best player on the floor for many of them. I also mentioned when Bird's Celtic teammates played well.

[Micku]

Kareem was beastin' in 84 and 85 still. In 84, I thought he and Bird were the best players on the floor. Bird constantly attacked was great at fighting for the boards, and it saved them a few times. And he hit a game winner over Magic too, so that must'a felt good for him. Bird carried that team to victory in some of those games.

Magic shot selection was damn near perfect, and took what the defense gave him. James Worthy was a beast in 84 too. They were the better team in 84, but mental errors cost them the series.

85, I thought the Celtics were better. At least they were better than they were in 84, but Bird wasn't as good as he was in 84 (in the Finals). He injured his hand, but still. Kareem was a beast in that series like I said before. Mchale was a beast that series too.

Mchale: 26.0 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.8 blks, on 59.8% on 64.4% TS. Mchale was unstoppable.

One thing that ppl don't mention is the defense that Michael Cooper played on Bird. Worthy played solid D as well. You have to give it to Cooper tho. He had to quickness to keep up when Bird used to use screens to get free. I thought Bird would post him up more, but he tend to have trouble finishing.


Now I haven't read anything about Bird injuries in that post-season, but he was simply pathetic. In the Piston series he put up these numbers:

19.8 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 6.2 apg, on...get this... a .351 FG%.

I don't know. I read an article saying that the near end of the season Bird looked a tad slower and took rushed and forced shots. He didn't look like the regular Bird that ppl were used to seeing. The article or whatever mentioned that maybe he got injured then, but he still played good against the Hawks and Knicks, so maybe he just abnormally sucked big time against them that year.

[CavaliersFTW]

They never guarded each other. Not really a true "head to head". Just their stats when their teams were facing the other players team.

[Psileas]

Magic played amazing in the 87-88 season and deserved the Finals MVP over Worthy as well (just as Kareem > Magic in 1980). However Bird was at least as good that entire season.

From 79-80 until 85-86 nobody ever would say that Magic is better than Bird. Larry finished higher in MVP voting every single year and was the clear-cut best player on his team unlike Magic.

Don't get me wrong Magic is my favorite all-time player (along with Lebron) but this Bird hate is ridiculous. Everyone has poor series. Look at Magic in '81 playoffs or '83 Finals or '84 Finals when he became Tragic Magic.

And no I wasn't emphasizing Kareem's performances (I wrote it on the bottom with the recaps...) but when I post about the '84 and '85 Finals it seems fair to mention his enormous contributions. I mean he destroyed the Celtics in so many of those games and was the best player on the floor for many of them. I also mentioned when Bird's Celtic teammates played well.

Your only mention about Bird's teammates was one about DJ, and even this came after you edited your initial post...Just because I didn't spend time to comment doesn't mean I didn't see it.

[dankok8]

They never guarded each other. Not really a true "head to head". Just their stats when their teams were facing the other players team.

True but people still consider it a big rivalry because they came into the league and faced each other several times in the Finals on the head of the two biggest dynasties.



Your only mention about Bird's teammates was one about DJ, and even this came after you edited your initial post...Just because I didn't spend time to comment doesn't mean I didn't see it.

I also mentioned each starter scoring over 20+ points in another game and McHale in Game 3 and 6 of the '85 Finals. I only mentioned the noteworthy performances in the recap.

If it bothers you that much I'll remove the recaps. Sheesh people think I'm biased or some shit because I mentioned Kareem's great games in the finals. :lol And yes I edited the post to post additional stats I gathered.

[LAZERUSS]

79-80 Season

12/28/1979

Magic: 23/8/6/0/4 (7/14, 9/10) W
Bird: 16/4/3 (7/15, 2/3)

Lakers win 123-105.

1/13/1980

Magic: 1/3/2/0/2 (0/2, 1/2) W
Bird: 14/12/1 (7/12, 0/0)

Lakers in 100-98. Kareem has 33/12 game.


81-82 Season

2/14/1982

Magic: 19/10/8 (6/11, 7/9)
Bird: 12/9/9 (4/11, 4/5) W

Celtics win 108-103.


82-83 Season

1/20/1983

Magic: 14/9/10 (5/10, 4/4)
Bird: 21/13/8 (9/22, 3/3) W

Celtics win 110-95.

2/23/1983

Magic: 20/13/10 (9/21, 2/3)
Bird: 32/17/9 (13/23, 4/6) W

Celtics win 113-104.


83-84 Season

2/8/1984

Magic: 20/8/10/?/6 (9/13, 2/2) W
Bird: 29/11/7 (12/19, 5/5)

Lakers win 111-109.

2/24/1984

Magic: 9/8/18/?/3 (4/11, 1/2) W
Bird: 14/11/5/2 (6/12, 2/2)

Lakers win 116-108. Kareem has 31/7/5 game.


'84 Playoffs

Game 1

Magic: 18/6/10/0/4 (7/11, 4/4) W
Bird: 24/14/5 (7/17, 9/11)

Lakers win 115-109. Kareem has 32/8/5 game on 71% shooting in a dominant effort.

Game 2

Magic: 27/10/9/1/0 (10/14, 7/7)
Bird: 27/13/3/2 (8/22, 11/15) W

Celtics win 124-121 in OT. Johnson stupidly burns a timeout and then lets the clock run out at the end of regulation. In OT Celtics use the chance they get to win the game.

Game 3

Magic: 14/11/21/1/1 (4/6, 6/10) W
Bird: 30/7/2/1 (9/16, 12/15)

Lakers win in a huge blowout 137-104.

Game 4

Magic: 20/11/17/0/2 (8/12, 4/7)
Bird: 29/21/2/0 (9/24, 10/10) W

Celtics win 129-125 in OT. Magic and Worthy each miss 2 free throws in the last seconds of regulation. Kareem has a dominant 32/8/6 game with 2 blocks and 4 steals. Lakers choke yet again.

Game 5

Magic: 10/5/13/2/2 (3/9, 4/6)
Bird: 34/17/2/1 (15/20, 2/4) W

In the infamous Heat game in the Boston Garden the Celtics obliterate the Lakers 121-103. Kareem and Worthy visibly struggled to breathe during the game. Bird dominated in the hellish conditions.

Game 6

Magic: 21/6/10/0/1 (10/18, 1/2) W
Bird: 28/14/8/3 (8/11, 12/13)

Lakers force a deciding Game 7 at the Garden winning 119-108. Kareem had another dominant performance with 30/10/5.

Game 7

Magic: 16/5/15/2/4 (5/14, 6/7)
Bird: 20/12/3/1 (6/18, 8/8) W

Celtics in 111-102 to win a championship. Bird wins Finals MVP. Kareem had 29/6/4 in the clincher.

Series Stats

Magic: 18.0 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 13.6 apg, 0.9 bpg, 2.0 spg on 56.0 %FG/61.2 %TS and 4.6 topg
Bird: 27.4 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 3.6 apg, 1.1 bpg, 2.1 spg on 48.4 %FG/59.5 %TS and 3.6 topg


84-85 Season

1/16/1985

Magic: 8/7/13/0/2 (4/11, 0/0)
Bird: 19/11/7/0/1 (9/16, 1/1) W

Celtics win 104-102. Kareem has 33/7/4 game.

2/17/1985

Magic: 37/3/13/0/2 (10/16, 17/19) W
Bird: 33/15/3/0/3 (14/22, 4/5)

Lakers win 117-111.


'85 Playoffs

Game 1

Magic: 19/1/12/0/3 (8/14, 3/4)
Bird: 19/6/9/0/3 (8/14, 2/2) W

Celtics win 148-114 in what becomes known as the Memorial Day Massacre. Kareem scores 12 points in 22 minutes and is never factor in this one.

Game 2

Magic: 14/4/13/0/3 (6/9, 2/4) W
Bird: 30/12/3/2/2 (9/21, 1/1)

Lakers win 109-102. Kareem has a monster 30/17/8 game with 3 blocks.

Game 3

Magic: 17/9/16/0/2 (6/13, 4/4) W
Bird: 20/7/3/0/1 (8/21, 4/5)

Lakers win 136-111 in a big blowout. Kareem puts up 26/14/7 on 10/13 shooting. McHale has 31/10 on 10/13 shooting as well.

Game 4

Magic: 20/11/12/0/2 (5/12, 10/11)
Bird: 26/11/5/1/3 (8/16, 10/12) W

Celtics win 107-105.

Game 5

Magic: 26/6/17/0/2 (11/20, 4/4) W
Bird: 20/7/7/1/1 (8/17, 3/5)

Lakers win 120-111. Kareem dominates with 36/7/7 with 3 blocks.

Game 6

Magic: 14/10/14/0/1 (5/15, 4/4) W
Bird: 28/10/3/0/1 (12/29, 4/5)

Lakers clinch the title with a 111-100 win. Kareem has 29/7/4 game once again on blistering efficiency. KAJ wins Finals MVP averaging 25.7/9.0/5.2 on 60.4% shooting for the series. McHale has 32/16 in a loss.

Series Stats

Magic: 18.3 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 14.0 apg, 0.0 bpg, 2.2 spg on 49.4 %FG/56.9 %TS and 3.3 topg
Bird: 23.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 5.0 apg, 0.7 bpg, 1.8 spg on 44.9 %FG/52.7 %TS and 2.2 topg


85-86 Season

1/22/1986

Magic: 15/1/6/0/3 (6/10, 3/3)
Bird: 21/12/7/0/3 (8/16, 4/4) W

Celtics win 110-95.

2/16/1986

Magic: 6/6/12/0/2 (0/4, 6/6)
Bird: 22/18/7/0/0 (7/17, 8/12) W

Celtics win 105-99.


86-87 Season

12/12/1986

Magic: 31/7/8/1/2 (13/25, 5/7) W
Bird: 26/3/6/1/0 (11/13, 3/3)

Lakers win 117-110.

2/15/1987

Magic: 39/7/10/0/2 (12/20, 14/15) W
Bird: 20/5/7/2/1 (7/12, 5/7)

Lakers in 106-103.


'87 Playoffs

Game 1

Magic: 29/8/13/1/2 (13/25, 3/3) W
Bird: 32/7/6/0/1 (14/25, 4/4)

Lakers win 126-113.

Game 2

Magic: 22/5/20/0/3 (10/17, 2/2) W
Bird: 23/10/4/1/1 (9/17, 4/5)

Lakers win in a blowout 141-122.

Game 3

Magic: 32/11/9/0/1 (12/18, 8/8)
Bird: 30/12/4/1/0 (10/24, 10/11) W

Celtics win 109-103.

Game 4

Magic: 29/8/5/0/1 (12/20, 5/6) W
Bird: 21/10/7/2/1 (7/19, 5/5)

Lakers in 107-106. Magic hits the infamous baby hook over Kevin McHale to give the Lakers a 3-1 series lead.

Game 5

Magic: 29/8/12/0/4 (12/21, 4/4)
Bird: 23/12/7/1/2 (7/18, 8/9) W

Celtics win 123-108 to stave off elimination. Boston gets 20+ point outings from all five of their starters.

Game 6

Magic: 16/8/19/1/3 (7/21, 2/2) W
Bird: 16/9/5/2/2 (6/16, 4/4)

Lakers clinch the title with a 106-93 win. 40-year old Kareem has a 32-point game and makes couple of key baskets late including a pair of free throws with 30 seconds left to close it out. DJ has a huge 3/10/5 game for Boston in a losing effort.

Series Stats

Magic: 26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, 0.3 bpg, 2.3 spg on 54.1 %FG/59.0 %TS and 2.2 topg
Bird: 24.2 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.2 bpg, 1.2 spg on 44.5 %FG/53.4 %TS and 3.0 topg


87-88 Season

12/11/1987

Magic: 18/8/17/0/2 (6/11, 5/6) W
Bird: 35/9/8/2/5 (14/26, 6/8)

Lakers win 115-114.

2/14/1988

Magic: 22/5/14/0/3 (9/19, 4/7) W
Bird: 25/17/4/1/0 (8/22, 9/11)

Lakers win 115-106.


89-90 Season

12/15/1989

Magic: 16/6/21/0/6 (4/12, 8/8) W
Bird: 21/12/2/0/3 (9/27, 2/2)

Lakers win 119-110.

2/18/1990

Magic: 30/4/13/0/1 (10/21, 7/7) W
Bird: 20/7/7/0/1 (9/17, 2/2)

Lakers in 116-110.


90-91 Season

2/15/1991

Magic: 21/9/16/1/1 (7/13, 6/8)
Bird: 11/11/11/0/2 (4/16, 2/2) W

Celtics win 98-85.



Cumulative Regular Season Stats

Magic: 19.4 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 11.4 apg on 49.6 %FG/59.0 %TS
Bird: 21.7 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 6.2 apg on 49.7 %FG/55.3 %TS

Lakers went 11-7 against the Celtics.

Cumulative Playoff Stats

Magic: 20.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 13.4 apg, 0.4 bpg, 2.2 spg on 53.3 %FG/59.0 %TS and 3.4 topg
Bird: 25.3 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.1 bpg, 1.5 spg on 46.0 %FG/55.5 %TS and 2.6 topg

Lakers went 2-1 in finals series and 11-8 in games against the Celtics.

Here is their post-season scorecard folks...

'80...Magic by a mile

'81...Bird, even with a horrid Finals (Magic had missed half the season due to injury BTW)

'82...Magic...by a mile

'83...Magic

'84...This is interesting..."Tragic's" statline was probably at least the equal of Bird's, but since Bird was handed that ring...I'll go Bird, but just barely

'85...Easily Magic

'86.. Bird. The only post-season in which he was clearly better

'87...Magic and by several miles

'88... Magic by a continent

'89...Magic (well, you get the picture)

'90...Magic (again, just a lopsided margin)

'91...Magic (not even close.)


Hmmm... Bird "wins" in '81, '84, and '86
Magic "wins" in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, '91

[Pointguard]

I also mentioned each starter scoring over 20+ points in another game and McHale in Game 3 and 6 of the '85 Finals. I only mentioned the noteworthy performances in the recap.

If it bothers you that much I'll remove the recaps. Sheesh people think I'm biased or some shit because I mentioned Kareem's great games in the finals. :lol And yes I edited the post to post additional stats I gathered.

In '85, when Bird was in his incredible peak of three years, in the finals who was the best player for the Celtics? McHale also had pretty much better series than Kareem who guarded him a lot in that series. McHale guarded Bird's man too. Not only did he outscore Bird by 2ppg but he outshot him 598% to 449% and outrebounded him by 2 as well.

Also you don't mention how Magic took the legs of DJ, one of the most clutch players in the 80's and Danny Ainge. They shot 20% in that last game 6 for 31 because Magic ran them to death. Bird shot 40% in this game and this happened because Magic was the only player in the history of the game that could run on a made shot. It could qualify as one of the best defensive effects ever by a player. Magic legally took their legs from them.

[LAZERUSS]

In '85, when Bird was in his incredible peak of three years, in the finals who was the best player for the Celtics? McHale also had pretty much better series than Kareem who guarded him a lot in that series. McHale guarded Bird's man too. Not only did he outscore Bird by 2ppg but he outshot him 598% to 449% and outrebounded him by 2 as well.

Also you don't mention how Magic took the legs of DJ, one of the most clutch players in the 80's and Danny Ainge. They shot 20% in that last game 6 for 31 because Magic ran them to death. Bird shot 40% in this game and this happened because Magic was the only player in the history of the game that could run on a made shot. It could qualify as one of the best defensive effects ever by a player. Magic legally took their legs from them.

This.

Magic engineered the Laker offense. No player was ever a more effective "coast-to-coast" player than Magic. Or forcing opposing teams to play at light-speed. And his brilliant passing basically forced opposing defenses to have to defend EVERY Laker player.

And while KAJ deserved the FMVP in '85, had their been a playoff MVP that season, Magic would surely have won it. Not only that, but Magic was clearly robbed of his 4th FMVP in '88.

His overall contributions went far beyond the scoring, rebounding, and assists...

He simply made everyone around him so much better. My god, KAJ's FG%'s went thru the roof after Magic arrived. Worthy put up some ungodly FG% post-seasons. Byron Scott became a 20 ppg scorer because of Magic. He took Michael Cooper, who couldn't shoot a lick before he entered the NBA, and made him an effective 3pt shooter. The reality was, Magic made player-after-player, much better.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Good shit.

Pretty close, all in all, if Bird didn't have an injured hand and elbow in 1985, the Celtics would've probably repeated and even this thing out some more, Kareem was a monster though.
And adding to the injured hand/elbow, also has to be said that after 1988, Bird was just a shell of his former self, even if still really good.

Basically looking at stats they "confirm" the same, Bird was a better shooter, better and more willing scorer (had to score more), Magic could still score and was always efficient, Bird was a better rebounder still Magic was a really good rebounder, Magic's the GOAT passer and Bird's one of the greatest, there's always more to it than stats and it doesn't show the defense part obviously, Bird was easily a better defensive player. Also, Magic had better teammates around when you look at everything, at the whole picture, through the years/overall, that's clear.

Thanks for posting Kareem's numbers too. Shows how much impact he had, and how much he determined games. Still a beast even after 35. Magic was only clear-cut #1 after 1985 or 1986.

Of course, this ***** Lazeruss (with his alt's) always with the same type of bullshit, looks at stats, checks what's better and claims a certain year to be a player's peak when it's really not (bet you don't do that with Wilt).. Now Bird's peak was in 1988? :rolleyes: Dude had serious back and heels problems, just because he was still a beast and with better numbers because he had to carry the team, doesn't mean that that was his peak year. :facepalm
Of course this child will always hate on Bird (or Kareem) to prop up Magic (or Wilt), same agenda, same ignorant arguments.


jlauber, no-one gives a f... about what you say. We all know memorized your agenda;
- Larry Bird, which has a case for having top 5 peak ever, isn't greater than Magic Johnson.
- Magic Johnson helped a lot Kareem to boost his legacy. So Kareem isn't that great.
- Then we reach the final step; Wilt is better than Kareem beucase Kareem's legacy is built on Magic.

There is no post of you that isn't related to Wilt agenda. Just stfu already.

:applause:


Magic played amazing in the 87-88 season and deserved the Finals MVP over Worthy as well (just as Kareem > Magic in 1980). However Bird was at least as good that entire season.

From 79-80 until 85-86 nobody ever would say that Magic is better than Bird. Larry finished higher in MVP voting every single year and was the clear-cut best player on his team unlike Magic.

Don't get me wrong Magic is my favorite all-time player (along with Lebron) but this Bird hate is ridiculous. Everyone has poor series. Look at Magic in '81 playoffs or '83 Finals or '84 Finals when he became Tragic Magic.

And no I wasn't emphasizing Kareem's performances (I wrote it on the bottom with the recaps...) but when I post about the '84 and '85 Finals it seems fair to mention his enormous contributions. I mean he destroyed the Celtics in so many of those games and was the best player on the floor for many of them. I also mentioned when Bird's Celtic teammates played well.

Don't mind lazeruss and his alt's. With Wilt or Magic he will talk about broke fingernails, Bird had a severely injured hand and elbow during the 1985 playoffs and he never talks about it (like talking about Larry's 1983 post-season never even realizing he was injured and didn't even play one game).
:lol at him talking about Bird's 1988 series against the Pistons (claiming that that year was his peak too :oldlol:) without even mentioning that Bird had to get back surgery and surgery on both heels after that post-season. Let's just forget that or the fact that he was carrying all the load since 1987, playing in some really physical and intense series, getting beat up and getting most attention, having to be the best scorer, the best rebounder, the best passer, the team defender, playing major minutes while the Celtics had plenty of injuries to go around, old players and virtually no bench. While Magic had one of the most stacked up teams, one of the GOAT teams, could afford to play less than 37 mpg in the regular season, easily fewer minutes in the playoffs than Bird, considering their level Lakers were like coasting to the Finals in the Western Conference (EAst was much tougher). Where was Magic when Bird was healthy with a stacked team, in 1986? Shit, Magic had easily a better cast around in 1984 (not even clear-cut #1), all playing better in the playoffs, Bird was carrying the team with most underperforming, as the alpha, and they won vs the Lakers.

Shit, let's also "blame" Magic for not playing in 1991-92 and say Bird was above in that season lol. Gets that ridiculous with these people.

Bird had a better peak/prime than Magic as an overall player and while they were both healthy, Bird was, and was considered, the best player for the most part, easily. That's the bottom line.

[Psileas]

also mentioned each starter scoring over 20+ points in another game and McHale in Game 3 and 6 of the '85 Finals. I only mentioned the noteworthy performances in the recap.

Your initial post only mentioned Kareem. Zero mentions about McHale or any Celtic apart from Bird. Yeah, pretty sure we have an objective Magic fan here...

[jlip]

Bird's peak was just epic. Also it seems as if that was the consensus until '87. Until then, Kareem was yet viewed as the leader of the Lakers. By '87, Bird had been "the man" or viewed as the leader of the Celtics for several years. It's also worth noting that so often when players are comparable, the edge in many people's minds is going to lean towards the one who scores more points.



NAaa, not true. Definitely not true when one was winning more and influenced the playoffs more. Lebron/Durant.

Bird is definitely top 3 if you go mind/skillset/toughness. With two more healthy complete years I think he has to be in every bodies top five. That kind of Hirt him as a lot of guys have three great years.

A lot of people here were saying Kareem had a 12 year prime. The Magic years, were very distinct, from the other 9 years when Kareem had the energy to do the things he needed to. Coincidence?

If I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that according to public opinion at the time, Bird was not considered better than Magic pre-'87? If so I have to disagree. I personally consider Magic greater overall, but I'm almost certain that before '87 the consensus was Bird.

As it pertains to winning, prior to '87 they both had the same number of rings and Bird had more MVPs. They were 1-1 in the Finals against each other. Also, Magic was not perceived by the masses as his team's leader before '87. Bird was. I even remember Magic saying in an interview that before Rilley asked him to take a larger scoring role in Kareem's absence in '87, many people considered him basically a "game manager" who didn't have to ability to take over a game with his scoring. Again, Magic may have already truly been the leader, but that wasn't the consensus. The '87 season and beyond are what swung the pendulum in Magic's favor in regards to the public perception of who was greater.

[LAZERUSS]

Good shit.

Pretty close, all in all, if Bird didn't have an injured hand and elbow in 1985, the Celtics would've probably repeated and even this thing out some more, Kareem was a monster though.
And adding to the injured hand/elbow, also has to be said that after 1988, Bird was just a shell of his former self, even if still really good.

Basically looking at stats they "confirm" the same, Bird was a better shooter, better and more willing scorer (had to score more), Magic could still score and was always efficient, Bird was a better rebounder still Magic was a really good rebounder, Magic's the GOAT passer and Bird's one of the greatest, there's always more to it than stats and it doesn't show the defense part obviously, Bird was easily a better defensive player. Also, Magic had better teammates around when you look at everything, at the whole picture, through the years/overall, that's clear.

Thanks for posting Kareem's numbers too. Shows how much impact he had, and how much he determined games. Still a beast even after 35. Magic was only clear-cut #1 after 1985 or 1986.

Of course, this ***** Lazeruss (with his alt's) always with the same type of bullshit, looks at stats, checks what's better and claims a certain year to be a player's peak when it's really not (bet you don't do that with Wilt).. Now Bird's peak was in 1988? :rolleyes: Dude had serious back and heels problems, just because he was still a beast and with better numbers because he had to carry the team, doesn't mean that that was his peak year. :facepalm
Of course this child will always hate on Bird (or Kareem) to prop up Magic (or Wilt), same agenda, same ignorant arguments.



:applause:



Don't mind lazeruss and his alt's. With Wilt or Magic he will talk about broke fingernails, Bird had a severely injured hand and elbow during the 1985 playoffs and he never talks about it (like talking about Larry's 1983 post-season never even realizing he was injured and didn't even play one game).
:lol at him talking about Bird's 1988 series against the Pistons (claiming that that year was his peak too :oldlol:) without even mentioning that Bird had to get back surgery and surgery on both heels after that post-season. Let's just forget that or the fact that he was carrying all the load since 1987, playing in some really physical and intense series, getting beat up and getting most attention, having to be the best scorer, the best rebounder, the best passer, the team defender, playing major minutes while the Celtics had plenty of injuries to go around, old players and virtually no bench. While Magic had one of the most stacked up teams, one of the GOAT teams, could afford to play less than 37 mpg in the regular season, easily fewer minutes in the playoffs than Bird, considering their level Lakers were like coasting to the Finals in the Western Conference (EAst was much tougher). Where was Magic when Bird was healthy with a stacked team, in 1986? Shit, Magic had easily a better cast around in 1984 (not even clear-cut #1), all playing better in the playoffs, Bird was carrying the team with most underperforming, as the alpha, and they won vs the Lakers.

Shit, let's also "blame" Magic for not playing in 1991-92 and say Bird was above in that season lol. Gets that ridiculous with these people.

Bird had a better peak/prime than Magic as an overall player and while they were both healthy, Bird was, and was considered, the best player for the most part, easily. That's the bottom line.


Yep...your Bird was just brilliant in all of his post-seasons wasn't he?

Again, thanks to Colts18...


Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

[LAZERUSS]

If I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that according to public opinion at the time, Bird was not considered better than Magic pre-'87? If so I have to disagree. I personally consider Magic greater overall, but I'm almost certain that before '87 the consensus was Bird.

As it pertains to winning, prior to '87 they both had the same number of rings and Bird had more MVPs. They were 1-1 in the Finals against each other. Also, Magic was not perceived by the masses as his team's leader before '87. Bird was. I even remember Magic saying in an interview that before Rilley asked him to take a larger scoring role in Kareem's absence in '87, many people considered him basically a "game manager" who didn't have to ability to take over a game with his scoring. Again, Magic may have already truly been the leader, but that wasn't the consensus. The '87 season and beyond are what swung the pendulum in Magic's favor in regards to the public perception of who was greater.

Bird was considered the greater player from '84 thru '86.

Magic was hurt in the MVP voting by two things. One, Kareem was taking votes from him, and two, his 80-81 regular season.

But, if you include post-season play, Magic was easily the better the player from '80 thru '83.

And then in the '85 Finals, Bird was the only the FIFTH best player on the floor in that series, and wasn't even the best player on his own team.

The reality was, Magic was a considerably better post-season player, outplayed Bird in their post-season series, and overall, had a greater career. Plain-and-simple.

[SexSymbol]

Here is their post-season scorecard folks...

'80...Magic by a mile

'81...Bird, even with a horrid Finals (Magic had missed half the season due to injury BTW)

'82...Magic...by a mile

'83...Magic

'84...This is interesting..."Tragic's" statline was probably at least the equal of Bird's, but since Bird was handed that ring...I'll go Bird, but just barely

'85...Easily Magic

'86.. Bird. The only post-season in which he was clearly better

'87...Magic and by several miles

'88... Magic by a continent

'89...Magic (well, you get the picture)

'90...Magic (again, just a lopsided margin)

'91...Magic (not even close.)


Hmmm... Bird "wins" in '81, '84, and '86
Magic "wins" in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, '91
Is wilt Magic's mother?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Yep...your Bird was just brilliant in all of his post-seasons wasn't he?

Again, thanks to Colts18...

:roll:
You really think anyone read(s) that quote and took/takes it seriously or gave/gives it any though with the amount of hate and ignorance in it? :oldlol: Get a grip child. You couldn't get any decent response to my post (because just mostly facts and the clear truth) so you just go on posting that useless crap again.

Furthermore, I rebuked/exposed that shitty quote so many times and everyone knows it, shit ain't even funny anymore, yet you keep quoting that ignorant post from an ignorant someone again and again, you must be mentally ill or something and it further adds on with the long-ass (dumb) essays just to prop-up "your" Wilt Chamberlain :lol (go mention Wilt's broken fingernail or something while neglecting injuries for Bird or Kareem, also)

Stop it please. Your agenda is clear to anyone by now why do you keep trying? It's stupid and leads nowhere.

This post was brilliant, I quote it again:


Originally Posted by Odinn
jlauber, no-one gives a f... about what you say. We all know memorized your agenda;
- Larry Bird, which has a case for having top 5 peak ever, isn't greater than Magic Johnson.
- Magic Johnson helped a lot Kareem to boost his legacy. So Kareem isn't that great.
- Then we reach the final step; Wilt is better than Kareem beucase Kareem's legacy is built on Magic.

There is no post of you that isn't related to Wilt agenda. Just stfu already.

By now you're just mad because you know the majority of people, or at least knowledgeable basketball fans:
-pretty much always put Kareem in their top3 and Wilt plenty of times not even top5
-know that Bird had a better prime/peak than Magic and was (considered too) mostly above when they were both healthy; also that Magic had better teammates around, overall/on average, for the most part throughout their careers when you look at the whole picture, and Bird was always the clear-cut #1 in his team as opposed for Magic

Also the fact that Bird and Kareem won more than Wilt and are above on most lists.
In fact, Kareem, Bird and Magic most of the time are ranked above Wilt, by people who know their shit too.

Just accept it and live your life. Just sad right now.
I'm a big fan of Wilt, he had a top5 peak (Bird and Kareem too) and a great career, would be great in any era, also love Magic... But your agenda is dumb/ignorant, already known and it gets sad.

[LAZERUSS]

:roll:
You really think anyone read(s) that quote and took/takes it seriously or gave/gives it any though with the amount of hate and ignorance in it? :oldlol: Get a grip child. You couldn't get any decent response to my post (because just mostly facts and the clear truth) so you just go on posting that useless crap again.

Furthermore, I rebuked/exposed that shitty quote so many times and everyone knows it, shit ain't even funny anymore, yet you keep quoting that ignorant post from an ignorant someone again and again, you must be mentally ill or something and it further adds on with the long-ass (dumb) essays just to prop-up "your" Wilt Chamberlain :lol (go mention Wilt's broken fingernail or something while neglecting injuries for Bird or Kareem, also)

Stop it please. Your agenda is clear to anyone by now why do you keep trying? It's stupid and leads nowhere.

This post was brilliant, I quote it again:



By now you're just mad because you know the majority of people, or at least knowledgeable basketball fans:
-pretty much always put Kareem in their top3 and Wilt plenty of times not even top5
-know that Bird had a better prime/peak than Magic and was (considered too) mostly above when they were both healthy; also that Magic had better teammates around, overall/on average, for the most part throughout their careers when you look at the whole picture, and Bird was always the clear-cut #1 in his team as opposed for Magic

Also the fact that Bird and Kareem won more than Wilt and are above on most lists.
In fact, Kareem, Bird and Magic most of the time are ranked above Wilt, by people who know their shit too.

Just accept it and live your life. Just sad right now.
I'm a big fan of Wilt, he had a top5 peak (Bird and Kareem too) and a great career, would be great in any era, also love Magic... But your agenda is dumb/ignorant, already known and it gets sad.

You have NEVER rebuked anything I have posted.

Once again, the REALITY is, Bird is now a borderline Top-10 player, has no case over MJ, Russell, MAGIC, WILT, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, and now Lebron, and is fighting for his Top-10 life with Kobe, Hakeem, and Moses.

As for Chamberlain, simply the most dominant player of all-time. Kareem played FOUR years in the WILT-era, and never sniffed his records, nor the absolute domination that a prime Chamberlain just crushed many of the same centers that a prime KAJ would face later on (and most all of them were on the decline when a peak KAJ was playing against them.)

A prime Chamberlain was a better scorer (even in the POST-SEASON), a considerably better rebounder (hell, and OLD Wilt was a better rebounder), at his peak, a more efficient shooter from the field, a much better passer, and much better defender (again, an OLD Wilt was outvoting a PEAK Kareemi on the All-Defensive teams), and MUCH better shot-blocker (Wilt in his LAST season, blocked 5.4 shots per game...Kareem in the very next season was at 3.5, and his career high was 4.1.)

Again, take MAGIC out of Kareem's career, and he would have been a considered a major under-achiever.

As for Magic and Bird. Not even close. The evidence is there...Bird was a HUGE Choker in the post-season. And H2H against Magic, he was just waxed. While Bird, with stacked rosters, went to five Finals, and won three (and arguably, he had no business winning in '84), and only two FMVPs (and was not even the best player on his own team in two of those five Finals)... MAGIC carried his Laker teams (even without KAJ) to NINE Finals in his 12 full seasons, won FIVE rings, won THREE FMVP's (and clearly was robbed of a 4th in '88), and was LA's best player in the vast majority of his post-seasons, and especially in his Finals.

[Pointguard]

If I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that according to public opinion at the time, Bird was not considered better than Magic pre-'87? If so I have to disagree. I personally consider Magic greater overall, but I'm almost certain that before '87 the consensus was Bird.

As it pertains to winning, prior to '87 they both had the same number of rings and Bird had more MVPs. They were 1-1 in the Finals against each other. Also, Magic was not perceived by the masses as his team's leader before '87. Bird was. I even remember Magic saying in an interview that before Rilley asked him to take a larger scoring role in Kareem's absence in '87, many people considered him basically a "game manager" who didn't have to ability to take over a game with his scoring. Again, Magic may have already truly been the leader, but that wasn't the consensus. The '87 season and beyond are what swung the pendulum in Magic's favor in regards to the public perception of who was greater.

Bird before '84 was not consistent at all in the playoffs. Had one subpar series for almost every good series and when they won it all, nondescript Cedric Maxwell won FMVP. In '84 he has a great complete year which is what people were waiting for. But in '85 he isn't the best player on the team in the finals AGAIN despite a great year otherwise and the Celtics lose. But in '86 he has another great complete year. So the wave went back to Bird as the '87 season began. Magic reclaimed the wave for good in '87 when he produces the best film work of a player making other players better in the history of the game.

Before Magic and Bird the center position was the prime position. Now these two thinking, creative, make players around them better, superskilled players, turned the league over to perimeter players. This transition happened on Kareem's watch, probably years before when Barry could win it all without a solid player in sight and Kareem couldn't pull off the same. The game was decentralized because Kareem in his peak and prime showed that you can't dominate consistently from that position.

Kareem in his 8 year prime and peak was never as important as he was post prime with Magic and its not even close. Anybody can see a very simple narrative with Kareem as it relates to Magic. He becomes a winner after Magic's appearance. This is not questionable, nor does it have another narrative that makes sense. Magic could win with Kareem somewhat in the way - as Kareem ate up a ton a clock in his later years.

Magic's ability to make others around him much better and relevant was evident from day one. His versatility and all around offensive game was evident from day one along with his smarts, creativity, control, management, ability to fill MANY holes (like out rebounding his center) were all evident from day one.

[LAZERUSS]

Bird before '84 was not consistent at all in the playoffs. Had one subpar series for almost every good series and when they won it all, nondescript Cedric Maxwell won FMVP. In '84 he has a great complete year which is what people were waiting for. But in '85 he isn't the best player on the team in the finals AGAIN despite a great year otherwise and the Celtics lose. But in '86 he has another great complete year. So the wave went back to Bird as the '87 season began. Magic reclaimed the wave for good in '87 when he produces the best film work of a player making other players better in the history of the game.

Before Magic and Bird the center position was the prime position. Now these two thinking, creative, make players around them better, superskilled players, turned the league over to perimeter players. This transition happened on Kareem's watch, probably years before when Barry could win it all without a solid player in sight and Kareem couldn't pull off the same. The game was decentralized because Kareem in his peak and prime showed that you can't dominate consistently from that position.

Kareem in his 8 year prime and peak was never as important as he was post prime with Magic and its not even close. Anybody can see a very simple narrative with Kareem as it relates to Magic. He becomes a winner after Magic's appearance. This is not questionable, nor does it have another narrative that makes sense. Magic could win with Kareem somewhat in the way - as Kareem ate up a ton a clock in his later years.

Magic's ability to make others around him much better and relevant was evident from day one. His versatility and all around offensive game was evident from day one along with his smarts, creativity, control, management, ability to fill MANY holes (like out rebounding his center) were all evident from day one.

:bowdown:

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[LAZERUSS]

Interesting that a near prime Kareem couldn't carry loaded rosters past team's with far less talent in the late 70's, and in as weak an era for champions as you will find (50-32 and 44-38 teams winning the title), but MAGIC immediately transformed them into a 60 win title team, and would carry those Laker teams to NINE Finals, and FIVE Rings, in his 12 years. And even after Kareem retired, Magic was still taking them to 63-19 and 58-24 records. And yet, after Magic retired, the Lakers fell flat on their face.

Hmmm...

[Champ]

Here is their post-season scorecard folks...

'80...Magic by a mile

'81...Bird, even with a horrid Finals (Magic had missed half the season due to injury BTW)

'82...Magic...by a mile

'83...Magic

'84...This is interesting..."Tragic's" statline was probably at least the equal of Bird's, but since Bird was handed that ring...I'll go Bird, but just barely

'85...Easily Magic

'86.. Bird. The only post-season in which he was clearly better

'87...Magic and by several miles

'88... Magic by a continent

'89...Magic (well, you get the picture)

'90...Magic (again, just a lopsided margin)

'91...Magic (not even close.)


Hmmm... Bird "wins" in '81, '84, and '86
Magic "wins" in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, '91

Your scorecard reeks of bias.

[jlip]

Bird before '84 was not consistent at all in the playoffs. Had one subpar series for almost every good series and when they won it all, nondescript Cedric Maxwell won FMVP. In '84 he has a great complete year which is what people were waiting for. But in '85 he isn't the best player on the team in the finals AGAIN despite a great year otherwise and the Celtics lose. But in '86 he has another great complete year. So the wave went back to Bird as the '87 season began. Magic reclaimed the wave for good in '87 when he produces the best film work of a player making other players better in the history of the game.

Before Magic and Bird the center position was the prime position. Now these two thinking, creative, make players around them better, superskilled players, turned the league over to perimeter players. This transition happened on Kareem's watch, probably years before when Barry could win it all without a solid player in sight and Kareem couldn't pull off the same. The game was decentralized because Kareem in his peak and prime showed that you can't dominate consistently from that position.

Kareem in his 8 year prime and peak was never as important as he was post prime with Magic and its not even close. Anybody can see a very simple narrative with Kareem as it relates to Magic. He becomes a winner after Magic's appearance. This is not questionable, nor does it have another narrative that makes sense. Magic could win with Kareem somewhat in the way - as Kareem ate up a ton a clock in his later years.

Magic's ability to make others around him much better and relevant was evident from day one. His versatility and all around offensive game was evident from day one along with his smarts, creativity, control, management, ability to fill MANY holes (like out rebounding his center) were all evident from day one.

We are saying two different things. My position is that the public opinion before 1987 was that Bird was the better player. This was partly do to the fact that he was viewed as the leader of his team while Magic was not viewed as the leader by the masses.

Now...Was Magic actually better than Bird before 1987? Maybe? Was he truly the leader of the Lakers before 1987? Maybe. But that was not the general consensus at the time.

Trust me. Magic is my favorite player of all time, and IMO has a case for GOAT, but I'm simply stating what the opinion of these two players was in the 80's.

[Pointguard]

We are saying two different things. My position is that the public opinion before 1987 was that Bird was the better player. This was partly do to the fact that he was viewed as the leader of his team while Magic was not viewed as the leader by the masses.

Now...Was Magic actually better than Bird before 1987? Maybe? Was he truly the leader of the Lakers before 1987? Maybe. But that was not the general consensus at the time.

Trust me. Magic is my favorite player of all time, and IMO has a case for GOAT, but I'm simply stating what the opinion of these two players was in the 80's.
I don't get this who was the leader of the team thing. The team before Magic was totally different than the team once he arrived with Magic being the only new piece. Magic was given the franchise contract his second year and in consequence Kareem, who never really had great connect with teammates, threatened to leave the team. I don't see how he could be considered the leader of the team under those conditions.

If you watched the games it's obvious as day who the decision maker was and you could not name me anybody in the history of the league that had more control of the game than Magic did? Who are you saying was the leader of the team?

[dankok8]

In '85, when Bird was in his incredible peak of three years, in the finals who was the best player for the Celtics? McHale also had pretty much better series than Kareem who guarded him a lot in that series. McHale guarded Bird's man too. Not only did he outscore Bird by 2ppg but he outshot him 598% to 449% and outrebounded him by 2 as well.

Also you don't mention how Magic took the legs of DJ, one of the most clutch players in the 80's and Danny Ainge. They shot 20% in that last game 6 for 31 because Magic ran them to death. Bird shot 40% in this game and this happened because Magic was the only player in the history of the game that could run on a made shot. It could qualify as one of the best defensive effects ever by a player. Magic legally took their legs from them.

McHale better than Kareem in '85 Finals? Please show me one source that claims that. Look at their assist numbers and clutch scoring from recaps. Bottom line is in the 1980 run and also the 1985 Finals Kareem > Magic and he should have won both FMVP's. I mean there is no way around that.

Of course when Lakers could force their tempo Magic would thrive but until 86-87 he wasn't a great half-court player.


He simply made everyone around him so much better. My god, KAJ's FG%'s went thru the roof after Magic arrived. Worthy put up some ungodly FG% post-seasons. Byron Scott became a 20 ppg scorer because of Magic. He took Michael Cooper, who couldn't shoot a lick before he entered the NBA, and made him an effective 3pt shooter. The reality was, Magic made player-after-player, much better.

Kareem shot higher % in the 80's because he played at a higher pace and because he took far fewer shots. Sure Magic helped him but also vice versa. Kareem would retire with 1 title without Magic but Magic might have retired with 0 without Kareem.




Magic, Lebron, and Hakeem are my favorite all-time players. But the Kareem and Bird hate on this thread is ridiculous.



As for Magic vs. Bird let's really break it down. And don't forget Bird was a MUCH BETTER defensive player. Off-ball he was like a chess player anticipating his opponents' moves. He did things that don't show on the stat sheet like deny passes, cut off driving lanes, and forcing difficult shots without blocking them.

Magic quite truthfully was a liability against smaller PG's. He held his own against forwards which he usually covered and he could rack up steals but he was just about an average defender.

79-80

Bird joins a 29-win team and they win 60 games, biggest turnaround in league history at the time. He finishes 2nd in MVP voting and leads his team to the ECF putting 21/11/5 on 47% shooting in the playoffs.

There is no way Magic was better this year unless you take his Game 6 in the Finals and ignore everything else.

80-81

Bird leads his team to an upset of the Sixers while handily outplaying MVP Dr. J. Of course he then wins a title title while averaging 22/14/6 on 47% shooting in the playoffs.

In 81-82 and 82-83 I can give Magic an edge but in '83 playoffs Bird suffered from a myriad of injuries. And Magic had a rather bad series in the '83 Finals.

83-84

Bird leads his Celtics over the favored Lakers while averaging 28/11/6 on 52% shooting in the playoffs and 27/14/4 on 48% shooting in the finals. Meanwhile Tragic Magic chokes away two games.

84-85

Again Bird is a monster in the playoffs averaging 26/9/6 on 46% shooting. By the end of the ECF against Sixers he suffers an injury and plays well below 100% but is still great in the finals putting up 24/9/5 on 45% shooting.

85-86

No comment needed. Bird >>

86-87

Bird averages 27/10/7 on 48% shooting and leads the heavily depleted Celtics with injuries to almost all starters except Larry to the Finals and a close loss to the Lakers. Magic is transcendent but barely better than Bird.

87-88

Bird struggles against Detroit but look at his performances against the Hawks and all season long. He averages 25/9/7 on 45% shooting in the playoffs.

In 88-89, Bird's back gives out and he's never the same player again.

So in their first 9 years it's something like this.

Magic was easily better in '82 and '83
Magic was a bit better in '87 and '88
Bird was a bit better in '85
Bird was a lot better in '80, '81, '84, and '86

Overall for their careers I would take Magic over Bird by a hair because his prime was effectively 3 years longer. But those who watched both of them... Boston fans would say Bird is better, LA fans would say Magic is better, and all the neutral fans would refuse to rank them or put them side by side.

I never want to hear shit like Magic >>> Bird (or vice versa) ever again! Please for the love of god. :cheers:

[BIZARRO]

I have no agenda here. Love them both, watched them both play. Have Magic ahead slightly all time. But a good argument could be constructed for 84-86 peak Bird.

This thread has two things about it that I find completely ridiculous:

The main one:
1. You can't compare head to head in this case (and such a small sample size), because Bird was going up head to head against MICHAEL Freakin' COOPER in these games...not to mention Big Games James...
DJ was a great defender (in his prime especially), but the Celtics had small guards, and were no match at all for Magic size wise..pass/shoot over 'em all day..
Michael Cooper is one of the top defensive players ever...an NBA Defensive Player Of The Year...and the player who Bird said was the toughest player who ever guarded him...

So let's put things in perspective here:
It's like showing Bird's stats against Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman (or any of the long rangy defender the Pistons would rotate against him) or Bobby Jones guarding him as opposed to smaller guards often in the West (the Lakers were so long across the board the time, it was hard for the other team to have all bigger people guarding them_ ...I mean c'mon I wonder which stats would be better...
I'm just saying a Bird statline of 25, 11, and 5 with 45% shooting against Michael Cooper is more like 30, 12, 7 with 50% shooting against almost anyone else...
Bird's going head to head with Bobby Jones and Michael Cooper and Rodman and the Pistons all the time in these long playoff series...while Magic's cruising up and down the court at will in the wide open West against the likes of Dallas and Denver...
No player ever had a bigger defensive challenge than Larry Bird did series after series in the '80's, where every team had a long ALL TIME defender on his a** the whole game...these numbers in this thread are pretty worthless for that reason alone...

2. I was there watching Kareem and Magic and the Lakers as a kid at the time...Magic was clearly the leader of the Lakers hands down...Kareem could put up numbers because he had the hook and Magic got him the ball all the time...but Magic was clearly the most important cog from '82 on...unless you watched it, you wouldn't know..the poster who said the Lakers were Kareem's team until '87...what ARE you smokin? :pimp:

[mehyaM24]

too bad larry couldnt come through in 3 title opportunities vs magic. no excuses either. bird shot .449% in the '85 finals and shot .445% in the '87 finals.....if he played well i wouldnt say shit..but lets be real... not only did he lose to magic's lakers 3 times, he played well below his standards in all 3 matchups.

[mehyaM24]

I don't get this who was the leader of the team thing. The team before Magic was totally different than the team once he arrived with Magic being the only new piece. Magic was given the franchise contract his second year and in consequence Kareem, who never really had great connect with teammates, threatened to leave the team. I don't see how he could be considered the leader of the team under those conditions.

If you watched the games it's obvious as day who the decision maker was and you could not name me anybody in the history of the league that had more control of the game than Magic did? Who are you saying was the leader of the team?

magic would have swept the sixers without kareem.....no big man to slow the team down. thats why the lakers scored a series high 123 pts without kareem in game 6. he(magic) did something that will never be done again....get handed the nba finals mvp as a rookie.....the magic man was the man.

[Micku]

I don't get this who was the leader of the team thing. The team before Magic was totally different than the team once he arrived with Magic being the only new piece. Magic was given the franchise contract his second year and in consequence Kareem, who never really had great connect with teammates, threatened to leave the team. I don't see how he could be considered the leader of the team under those conditions.

If you watched the games it's obvious as day who the decision maker was and you could not name me anybody in the history of the league that had more control of the game than Magic did? Who are you saying was the leader of the team?

Kareem was considered the leader of team it seems. Right before the 1987 season, Pat Riley wanted Magic to be more aggressive and become the leader and first option of the team, and Magic wanted to ask if it was ok with Kareem first. I don't know what that entitles. Officially being captain of the team, vocal leader, first option, or whatever. It was documented that in 87, Pat Riley told Magic that he wanted him to score more and be the first option on the team. Magic, Riley and Kareem said this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3Zqj9p033g#t=44m10s



"Everybody could see that we wasn't favorite pals or buddies the first three or four years. I think I wanted him to know I wasn't trying to get into his territory; he was the man. But things came so fast for me that maybe he thought I was intruding. I don't know."

Kareem could see Magic holding back, but that was OK with Abdul-Jabbar. He wasn't the type to rush into a deep friendship, either.

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-01-08/sports/sp-2903_1_magic-johnson

[Micku]

too bad larry couldnt come through in 3 title opportunities vs magic. no excuses either. bird shot .449% in the '85 finals and shot .445% in the '87 finals.....if he played well i wouldnt say shit..but lets be real... not only did he lose to magic's lakers 3 times, he played well below his standards in all 3 matchups.


Well in 85 he had an excuse because he was dealing with injuries, but the Celtics team in 85 was better than it was in 84. Plus he went against Michael Cooper, who Bird claims is the best defender to guard him.

And in 84, I always felt that he and Kareem were the best in the series. The team tried to stop Kareem more than they tried to stop Magic, and the Lakers stuck to Bird like glue if I can recall, but he was missing some jumpers and layups around the rim. But he battled for the boards against Kareem, and give his team extra chances. But the Lakers shot themselves in the foot mostly. In 85, the Celts I thought had the better team with Mchale becoming unstoppable and good defensively, but Bird got injured and didn't perform well.

And there are excuses, but Bird in general wasn't a better playoff performer than Magic.

[Pointguard]

McHale better than Kareem in '85 Finals? Please show me one source that claims that. Look at their assist numbers and clutch scoring from recaps. Bottom line is in the 1980 run and also the 1985 Finals Kareem > Magic and he should have won both FMVP's. I mean there is no way around that.

Kareem of the 80's was a byproduct of Magic. Simple question to you, who would you rather have: Kareem in his peak and prime or Kareem next to Magic. There is a reason for that.

[dankok8]

2. I was there watching Kareem and Magic and the Lakers as a kid at the time...Magic was clearly the leader of the Lakers hands down...Kareem could put up numbers because he had the hook and Magic got him the ball all the time...but Magic was clearly the most important cog from '82 on...unless you watched it, you wouldn't know..the poster who said the Lakers were Kareem's team until '87...what ARE you smokin? :pimp:

Not until 8 years into Showtime did Magic become better than Kareem my friend. Here are some articles that talk about how Magic finally took the torch from Kareem in 86-87 and became the leader of the Lakers.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/view...f=64&t=1200219



Kareem passed the torch, unselfishly, realizing that at 40, he could no longer dominate the offense.


“Everyone on the team accepted my new role, and that was the key,” said Magic, who has added an adaptation of Abdul-Jabbar’s sky hook to his showcase. “Kareem gave me the nod. He told me to take over, go for it. - Magic Johnson


“I never had doubts that I could do it, but there were other people to consider. Kareem, James [Worthy]. I didn’t know how they would be affected. It would have been frustrating if they hadn’t accepted my new role.
I knew I would eventually shoot more, but I thought it would be after Jabbar was gone.” - Magic Johnson


“I had doubts, repeated doubts that this would work,” Riley confessed. “I was unfamiliar with the territory I was treading. The first week of training camp was as chaotic as anything I’d ever been through. I was comfortable with the old offense. I had the greatest post player of all time. But I knew we had to make a change.”



This season’s Lakers were different from any previous Laker teams. When it came time for “Showtime,” the spotlight was on, not Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, as it had been for the previous decade, but Johnson.


Kareem of the 80's was a byproduct of Magic. Simple question to you, who would you rather have: Kareem in his peak and prime or Kareem next to Magic. There is a reason for that.

I'll take two superstars over one but prime 70's Kareem is better than any version of Magic or Kareem after '82.

This notion that Kareem needed Magic to make him is pretty crazy. Kareem led his team to a title in '71 on maybe the most dominant team ever. In '74 with Oscar playing like a role player, Lucious Allen, and no all-stars on his team Kareem led the Bucks to a Game 7 Finals loss against a vastly superior Celtics squad. He won 5 MVP's (tied for most overall) before Magic ever set foot on the court. He couldn't win more because he a) didn't have the right talent around him especially with the Lakers b) his teammates got injured. Apart from '73 playoffs Kareem played pretty damn great with many of those years on GOAT level. Look at how Kareem played in '70, '74, '77, and '79 for instance.

[LAZERUSS]

McHale better than Kareem in '85 Finals? Please show me one source that claims that. Look at their assist numbers and clutch scoring from recaps. Bottom line is in the 1980 run and also the 1985 Finals Kareem > Magic and he should have won both FMVP's. I mean there is no way around that.

Of course when Lakers could force their tempo Magic would thrive but until 86-87 he wasn't a great half-court player.



Kareem shot higher % in the 80's because he played at a higher pace and because he took far fewer shots. Sure Magic helped him but also vice versa. Kareem would retire with 1 title without Magic but Magic might have retired with 0 without Kareem.



Magic, Lebron, and Hakeem are my favorite all-time players. But the Kareem and Bird hate on this thread is ridiculous.



As for Magic vs. Bird let's really break it down. And don't forget Bird was a MUCH BETTER defensive player. Off-ball he was like a chess player anticipating his opponents' moves. He did things that don't show on the stat sheet like deny passes, cut off driving lanes, and forcing difficult shots without blocking them.

Magic quite truthfully was a liability against smaller PG's. He held his own against forwards which he usually covered and he could rack up steals but he was just about an average defender.

79-80

Bird joins a 29-win team and they win 60 games, biggest turnaround in league history at the time. He finishes 2nd in MVP voting and leads his team to the ECF putting 21/11/5 on 47% shooting in the playoffs.

There is no way Magic was better this year unless you take his Game 6 in the Finals and ignore everything else.

80-81

Bird leads his team to an upset of the Sixers while handily outplaying MVP Dr. J. Of course he then wins a title title while averaging 22/14/6 on 47% shooting in the playoffs.

In 81-82 and 82-83 I can give Magic an edge but in '83 playoffs Bird suffered from a myriad of injuries. And Magic had a rather bad series in the '83 Finals.

83-84

Bird leads his Celtics over the favored Lakers while averaging 28/11/6 on 52% shooting in the playoffs and 27/14/4 on 48% shooting in the finals. Meanwhile Tragic Magic chokes away two games.

84-85

Again Bird is a monster in the playoffs averaging 26/9/6 on 46% shooting. By the end of the ECF against Sixers he suffers an injury and plays well below 100% but is still great in the finals putting up 24/9/5 on 45% shooting.

85-86

No comment needed. Bird >>

86-87

Bird averages 27/10/7 on 48% shooting and leads the heavily depleted Celtics with injuries to almost all starters except Larry to the Finals and a close loss to the Lakers. Magic is transcendent but barely better than Bird.

87-88

Bird struggles against Detroit but look at his performances against the Hawks and all season long. He averages 25/9/7 on 45% shooting in the playoffs.

In 88-89, Bird's back gives out and he's never the same player again.

So in their first 9 years it's something like this.

Magic was easily better in '82 and '83
Magic was a bit better in '87 and '88
Bird was a bit better in '85
Bird was a lot better in '80, '81, '84, and '86

Overall for their careers I would take Magic over Bird by a hair because his prime was effectively 3 years longer. But those who watched both of them... Boston fans would say Bird is better, LA fans would say Magic is better, and all the neutral fans would refuse to rank them or put them side by side.

I never want to hear shit like Magic >>> Bird (or vice versa) ever again! Please for the love of god. :cheers:

You didn't refute a DAMN thing in my previous post...

Post-season play:

1980...only a complete idoot would claim that Bird was better than the well-deserving FMVP in a post-season. Hell, they won the deciding game without Kareem forcryingoutloud. Evidently he was holding Magic back...as evidenced by a Finals game far greater than Bird ever had.

1981. I gave that one to Bird by default, and not because Bird played well. He was simply awful in the Finals, and needed Ced Maxwell's well deserved FMVP to barely beat a 40-42 team in the Finals. In a season in which Magic missed half the year, and was eliminated in the post-season by a stupid best-of-three series, and in that series, Moses completely annihilated your boy KAJ.

1982. Here again, Bird struggled against the Sixers, while Magic destroyed them in the Finals. Not even close.

1983. Bird was injured, so what. Magic missed the last half of the '81 season. And, while Magic was not exceptional in the Finals, he also wasn't KAJ getting creamed by Moses, either.

1984. One bad Worthy pass, and one Magic missed FT cost LA a sweep, which would have easily earned Magic his third FMVP. KAJ gagged in the critical five, and Bird's teammates overcame his awful shooting in the clinching game seven (6-18 from the field) to win a FMVP. Here again, I gave this one to Bird, but not by much. "Tragic" put up an 18 ppg, 7.7 rpg (leading LA,...where was your boy KAJ?), 13.6 apg, .560 FG% Finals...while Bird shot .488 and Kareem an even worse .481 (just one of several in which he shot below the post-season norm.)

1985. KAJ was the FMVP, but Magic was CLEARLY better than Bird, who was only the FIFTH best player in the series, and was badly outplayed by his teammate McHale. What a disgrace.

1986. Thanks to Kareem's hug e dropoff from his regular season annihilation of Hakeem (actually thanks to Sampson's suffocating defense on KAJ, instead of a helpless Hakeem), the Lakers were stunned by the Rockets. Bird had a great Finals, and I would give him a clear edge here.

1987. Magic's '87 Finals was better than any that Bird ever dreamed of having, and Bird again wasted a fine effort by both DJ and McHale, and couldn't shoot for his life (.445.) And please...a CLOSE series??? The Lakers slaughtered Boston in three of their four wins, and won the close game because Magic made the winning shot, while Bird bricked his.

1988. Bird was awful against the Pistons...plain-and-simple. A Piston team that Magic destroyed, along with Worthy, while KAJ was a nice role player. Incidently, 87-88 was probably Bird's greatest regular season, too. And then he butchered the post-season. A CLEAR win for Magic (who SHOULD have won his 4th FMVP.) As a sidenote, has there ever been another GOAT candidate who played as awful as KAJ in the '88 post-season, and Finals (and just puked all over the floor in that game seven?)

1989. Bird was washed up. Meanwhile, magic carried LA to an 11-0 playoff record. But in the 11th win, they lost Byron Scott (and his 20 ppg) to a season ending injury, and then Magic in game two. Without Magic, and with Kareem a complete waste, the Lakers were swept. In any case, a HUGE edge to Magic.

1990. Without KAJ, Magic carries LA to a 63-19 record. And Bird actually had a good post-season for once, but it only lasted for five games, in a 4-1 blowout loss. Meanwhile, even in a second round loss, Magic was by far greater than Bird had been that post-season. Another solid win for Magic.

1991. While Bird was simply awful in the '91 post-season, Magic carried an injured and rapidly declining Laker team to the Finals. A HUGE wdge for Magic.

Those were the FACTS. And yes, Magic >>>>>> Bird in their post-season play.

[mehyaM24]

again...LA would have won the 1980 finals in even more dominant fashion without kareem. seriously. thats why they won 123-107 without him. both the highest scoring game by the lakers and the highest margin of victory.....and it was on the road....and it was win or go home(stay home) for the sixers so they gave it their best shot. with no kareem to slow them down the lakers ran the sixers off the court....nuff said.

kareems "legend" is so freaking overrated.

[jlip]

2. I was there watching Kareem and Magic and the Lakers as a kid at the time...Magic was clearly the leader of the Lakers hands down...Kareem could put up numbers because he had the hook and Magic got him the ball all the time...but Magic was clearly the most important cog from '82 on...unless you watched it, you wouldn't know..the poster who said the Lakers were Kareem's team until '87...what ARE you smokin? :pimp:

I was that poster. There is something that you and Pointguard seem to be missing. I never once claimed that Kareem was the leader until 1987. I stated and highlighted in my post many times that the public perception was that Kareem was leader until that point.

[LAZERUSS]

I was that poster. There is something that you and Pointguard seem to be missing. I never once claimed that Kareem was the leader until 1987. I stated and highlighted in my post many times that the public perception was that Kareem was leader until that point.

I don't really think so. Of course the "company line" was. But that was just to appease KAJ. Everyone in the Laker organization knew where their bread was really buttered, though.

[BIZARRO]

To continue to put this thread in more context, Bird was being hounded by the Pistons (Rodman, etc.), Bobby Jones, and Michael Cooper every playoff series.
These are not just some of the best defenders of their time, but of all time...game after game, series after series.

Example:
http://articles.latimes.com/1987-12-12/sports/sp-6653_1_michael-cooper

[LAZERUSS]

To continue to put this thread in more context, Bird was being hounded by the Pistons (Rodman, etc.), Bobby Jones, and Michael Cooper every playoff series.
These are not just some of the best defenders of their time, but of all time...game after game, series after series.

Example:
http://articles.latimes.com/1987-12-12/sports/sp-6653_1_michael-cooper

Coop...the "Bird-hunter"...

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, I get a kick out of those that claim that Magic was a defensive liability. He led the NBA in spg twice, as well as the post-season twice.

And, BTW, who could guard him at the other end?

[dankok8]

I get so sick-and-tired of using QUOTES. Hell, for the longest time people like Simmons were quoting West and Barry as blasting Wilt. Hmmm...now we have interviews in which they have both claimed that Wilt was the most dominant player to have ever played the game.

And the reality is, I could waste my time, and look up SI articles after Magic won his first, and then his third FMVP. There were those that were already proclaiming him as the best player in the league at that time. And he was.

Again, Bird had more MVP votes in the regular seasons from '80 thru '82, but only because KAJ was taking votes away from Magic. And after the numerous playoff flops that Bird had in his first four seasons (even in a Finals series win), no one in their right mind would have taken him over Magic in terms of playoff dominance.

And even Bird's "three-peat MVP's" were blown to shreds by Magic in 1985. Again, Bird was the FIFTH best player in that series, and McHale was easily the better player on his own team.

And after '87. Well, not even close.

In terms of overall career resumes, Magic is well ahead of Bird.

As for Kareem vs Magic. MAGIC outvoted Kareem in the MVP balloting, EVERY season from 81-82 on. Everyone, including RILEY, knew it was MAGIC who was carrying those teams. Don't kid yourself. He was being kind to "Cap", but clearly, Magic was the architect of those FIVE titles.

Please do waste your time LAZERUSS and post SI articles that say Magic is clearly better than Bird OR Kareem prior to the 86-87 season. And not based off of hype related to one game like "after scoring 45 points last night, Magic is the best player in the game". Of course most posters here would agree that Bird > Magic for the first seven years of their careers.


When Magic was given the Franchise contract, he was like management because the contract was for 25 years, and he worked toward not alienating Kareem - Kareem was pretty good at that his whole life. Kareem got upset with the Franchise player and went to the franchise to complain (even threatened to leave the team) about Magic's franchise contract. Kareem amazingly didn't know he was an outsider. Magic always took the high road and brought Kareem in. Didn't say Kareem was a jerk for that move and never griped with Kareem and looked out for him his whole stay. Magic knew he had the franchises ear but never exercised it on Kareem. If it was one or the other Magic knew he had the balance of power and was the franchise.

Sure the Lakers organization went out of their way to appease Magic. He was young entering his prime and he was the one selling tickets. Popularity and stage of career has much much more to do with that than "Kareem's attitude". You do know that Magic got his coach fired in the '81 offseason? You do know that he clashed with Nixon for touches in their early years together?


All the people that mattered knew it was Magic's team. The franchise, the players and the coaches. Some parts of the media may not have known. To appease the franchise Magic co-opted Kareem to bring in his tremendous talent. And Magic featured Kareem and always tended to his fragile ego much more than any player I can think of.

Kareem's fragile ego? Please explain. What did Kareem do to undermine his team ever? Seriously I don't know and you might be on to something but I've never heard about it.


As an individual player Kareem was better. As a team player and winner he wasn't close to Magic. Nothing stands up and says that. 8 years and he fails to prove more than once that he has it. Rick Barry's chip was way more impressive than Kareem's. Aging Dandridge and Hayes did was more impressive than what Kareem did in the 70's. Throw Gus Williams chip in there too as being more impressive as well. And those guys don't make an allstar team in any year in the 80's. But Magic wins it when HOF's MJ, Bird, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Doc, Isiah, Hakeem, Barkley, McHale, Parrish, Stockton and Drexler.

Situations man...

You realize that Kareem's supporting cast was totally decimated by injuries in '72, '74, and '77 when his team was a contender? You do realize that from the 73-74 season to 78-79 season he didn't have a single teammate make an all-star team or all-defensive selection?

Look at the '74 Bucks playoff roster (with Allen DNP and Oscar on his last legs both figuratively and literally!) and tell me with a straight face that they were supposed to even have a chance vs. Boston.

And if you think what Hayes and Barry did is more impressive than what Kareem did in '71 (or '80 for that matter) then I don't really know what to say.

Look at this quote by Bill Walton about Kareem. And he's isn't exactly some joe schmoe but one of the biggest basketball minds ever to set foot on the court.

"I lived to play against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He was the greatest player I ever played against, by far. Better than Jordan. Better than Magic. better than Bird. Better than Dr. J. Better than the best of the best that I played against. Better than Rick Barry. He was my source of motivation for everything I ever did. Everything I did was to try to beat this guy. I lived to play against him, and I played my best ball against him. No matter what I threw at him, though, it seemed like he'd score 50 against me. His left leg belongs in the Smithsonian. And it wasn't just offense. He was a great defender and rebounder, a great passer, a wonderful leader. He was phenomenal. " - Bill Walton


No way does Magic get less than three rings in the 70's two would have been a disappointment. Magic could win it when real greats were playing. Kareem was the best player for a good ten years before Magic and it was the most opportunistic time to win a chip.


The 70's were a brutal era to win a ring. Just because there were no dynasties doesn't mean it was weak. It just wasn't top-heavy but there were many great teams.



BTW, I get a kick out of those that claim that Magic was a defensive liability. He led the NBA in spg twice, as well as the post-season twice.

Yea because steals are a great indicator of defense... :banghead:

[LAZERUSS]

I just have to laugh at those that continue to protect Bird in these discussions. Magic was the better player...plain-and-simple. And for those that claim that Magic had better supporting casts,...just how in the hell did Magic take the 89-90 Lakers to a 63-19 record, and then follow that up by taking an injury-riddle roster that was in state of rapid decline, to a 58-24 record and a trip to the Finals in his last season?

The reality was, Bird had at least the equal of Magic in terms of supporting rosters. He was playing alongside THREE to FOUR other HOFers every season in his career.

And let's dispense with this "tougher" Eastern Conference nonsense right now. In '80 and '82, the Lakers easily beat the 76ers. Hell, they won a clinching game, in a rout, on the road, and without KAJ for cryingoutloud. Yet, those two teams were continually battling each other in series that were decided by 1-2 points. Clearly, it would have made no difference had LA been in the East.

I'll agree that the '83 Sixers were arguably the best team of the decade (although the '87 Lakers are right there), but Boston didn't even face them. They were busy choking away a sweeping loss to the under-dog Bucks in that post-season. And here is a good question while we are at it. How many titles does Moses win with a good supporting cast from '79 thru '83? He was just waxing a helpless KAJ in all of those seasons...and even in the playoffs with half the surrounding talent.

BTW, for those that argue that the '86 Celtics were the best team of the decade...it is just too bad that LA stumbled against the Rockets that post-season. The reality was, the '84 Lakers HANDED the Finals to Boston. By even Bird's own admission, LA should have SWEPT Boston that year (and yes, they should have.) In '85, after KAJ awoke from his slumber in game one, the Lakers overpowered Boston winning four of the next five, including a massacre in LA, and a solid clinching road win in Boston. And in '87, the Lakers won three games in which they had 20+ point leads, and another in Boston, on a Magic mini-hook (while Bird choked yet again with a brick at the buzzer.) IMHO, the Lakers from '84 thru '87 were CLEARLY the better team. And yes, Magic was the better player (despite Bird winning three straight MVPs.)

Magic was better H2H (and could have scored much more had he so chosen...hell, he had the TWO highest scoring games in their H2H's.) He was CLEARLY a better player in post-season...again, Bird had a slight edge in '81, '84, and solid edge in '86...Magic had an overwhelming edge in '80, '82, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, and '91. In their H2H's there were times where Bird was only the FIFTH best player on the floor, and not even the best player on his own team.

And I have posted the MANY post-season "choke jobs" that Bird put up. Needless to say, he lost SEVEN times with HCA. But not only that, he had SEVERAL AWFUL performances in them, as well. It is one thing to lose in a playoff series, it is quite another to blow chunks all over the floor in the process.

So, one more damned time...Magic >>> Bird.

[Pointguard]

Sure the Lakers organization went out of their way to appease Magic. He was young entering his prime and he was the one selling tickets. Popularity and stage of career has much much more to do with that than "Kareem's attitude". You do know that Magic got his coach fired in the '81 offseason? You do know that he clashed with Nixon for touches in their early years together?
The Laker's organization got Kareem just as he entered what is the usual prime for a center 28 years old. Why didn't he get that type of franchise contract? Trust me it, Magic was in operation for the franchise in all of his early moves, especially with Westhead who was more tolerable than Kareem. Nixon and Magic by nature could not co-exist together as he ran the team differently than Magic and Magic, who supposedly couldn't tolerate a nice coach, tolerated another point guard who was contrary to him stylistically on the team for three years, and Kareem who goes to management about him.


Kareem's fragile ego? Please explain. What did Kareem do to undermine his team ever? Seriously I don't know and you might be on to something but I've never heard about it.
Kareem went to management about Magic's contract and threatened to leave the team. And trust me, back then this was totally uncool and not old school. One might expect the spoil brats of today to do that but back then you just didn't do that. He was real sensitive about the criticism he received about not hustling and the movie airplane even has several jokes about it.


Situations man...

You realize that Kareem's supporting cast was totally decimated by injuries in '72, '74, and '77 when his team was a contender? You do realize that from the 73-74 season to 78-79 season he didn't have a single teammate make an all-star team or all-defensive selection?
Winner's find a way particularly in times when others are doing it alone and teams were weak for five years. It was the time of opportunity. Rick Barry didn't have any of those benefits you described above either. Hayes on the downside of his career didn't have that benefit either. I don't think Jack Sikma had one either.


Look at the '74 Bucks playoff roster (with Allen DNP and Oscar on his last legs both figuratively and literally!) and tell me with a straight face that they were supposed to even have a chance vs. Boston.

And if you think what Hayes and Barry did is more impressive than what Kareem did in '71 (or '80 for that matter) then I don't really know what to say.
More impressive in terms of their ability to win it all without a top ten GOAT next to them. And I'm talking about their decade accomplishment, not that year cause Kareem was much better than them stat wise every year without doubt. But they won it all without an Oscar Robinson (a guy that Kareem says could probably beat himself and Jordan one on one), Goodrich or a prime Danderidge, or a vet team of years together of Nixon, Dantley, Allen with seasoned champs Wilkes and Cazzie. Teams back then were rarely as seasoned except the Celtics who weren't competing in the later part of the year.



"I lived to play against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He was the greatest player I ever played against, by far. Better than Jordan. Better than Magic. better than Bird. Better than Dr. J. Better than the best of the best that I played against. Better than Rick Barry. He was my source of motivation for everything I ever did. Everything I did was to try to beat this guy. I lived to play against him, and I played my best ball against him. No matter what I threw at him, though, it seemed like he'd score 50 against me. His left leg belongs in the Smithsonian. And it wasn't just offense. He was a great defender and rebounder, a great passer, a wonderful leader. He was phenomenal. " - Bill Walton
He wasn't better than Jordan as an individual player and this isn't questionable, not better than Magic or Bird as a team player. Like I said the game was decentralized before Wallton came up or when Wilt left the game. Walton also has Magic ahead of Bird.



The 70's were a brutal era to win a ring. Just because there were no dynasties doesn't mean it was weak. It just wasn't top-heavy but there were many great teams.

Great enough that Barry could win it with teams worse than Kareem and Hayes could win it all in similar fashion. After '74 there were no consistent winners in the '70's. That's the time to assert yourself when its open like that. There is no five year span, '75 thru '79, where there is a greater opportunity to win a ring since '55 and maybe beyond that.


Yea because steals are a great indicator of defense... :banghead:
Steals, after the game was decentralized on Kareem's watch, are more valuable than blocks are. A steal is a turnover and usually, when Magic did it, two points or three points on the other end. A block, unless its a Wilt/Russell block, is more than likely NOT a turnover, much less two or three points. As a value statement Magic's steals were one of the biggest defensive plays there was. Not only could it be a five point turn around but it was demoralizing and kept the offensive team on their heels. The other team took less chances and played more reserved because of fear of Magic's running ability. Magic affected offenses in ways that if you understand the game, were pretty thorough. And this is definitely under defense:

Like I said in another thread about the '85 finals. The reason the Celtic backcourt shot 20% and had seven turnovers while playing conservatively and nearly maxed out their fouls, was because of their responsibilities to contain Magic. Magic had totally devastated their backcourt and contributed to why Bird missed 17 shots. A lot of players could not play Magic's pace.

If Kareem was ever to meet Magic in a series, in the 80's, Magic would trashed his team because Magic would have ran him into the ground or picked apart the four on five.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Lazeruss has over 2400 posts (with that account only, not even counting alts or past accounts) and all of them are about Wilt somehow, all of them to fit his crazy agenda (Magic better than Bird, Magic #1 not Kareem, Wilt better than Kareem), making the most outlandish and ignorant arguments again and again, even if nobody takes him seriously anymore.. How crazy is that? Furthermore, he even goes against his main goal, he makes people hate Wilt (or hate more) with his ridiculous, even I am starting to dislike Wilt in a way lol and I was always a fan.
Really sad and ridiculous, no point of arguing anymore. This dude can write the biggest essays and all, doesn't even have a life outside of trying to hail Wilt as a god. Again, sad and ridiculous, not point in going forward.

[LAZERUSS]

Sure the Lakers organization went out of their way to appease Magic. He was young entering his prime and he was the one selling tickets. Popularity and stage of career has much much more to do with that than "Kareem's attitude". You do know that Magic got his coach fired in the '81 offseason? You do know that he clashed with Nixon for touches in their early years together?

:roll:

Magic got Westhead fired? You better do some more research, my friend...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Johnson

[QUOTE]In 1981, after the 1980

[LAZERUSS]

Lazeruss has over 2400 posts (with that account only, not even counting alts or past accounts) and all of them are about Wilt somehow, all of them to fit his crazy agenda (Magic better than Bird, Magic #1 not Kareem, Wilt better than Kareem), making the most outlandish and ignorant arguments again and again, even if nobody takes him seriously anymore.. How crazy is that? Furthermore, he even goes against his main goal, he makes people hate Wilt (or hate more) with his ridiculous, even I am starting to dislike Wilt in a way lol and I was always a fan.
Really sad and ridiculous, no point of arguing anymore. This dude can write the biggest essays and all, doesn't even have a life outside of trying to hail Wilt as a god. Again, sad and ridiculous, not point in going forward.


First of all, what are my other "alts?"

Secondly, evidently you haven't read any of the MANY other posts on topics like Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Love, Hakeem, Duncan, Moses, players from the 60's, great teams, and the MANY in which I have praised KAJ. In fact, I could probably go one for hours.

And no, you are no more of a "Wilt" fan than Dankok8 is a "Magic" fan.

And again, give me some actual research with legitimate arguments in any of these "discussions" instead of your mindless and endless OPINIONS.

NOT one person here has given me or anyone else ANY proof, which shows that a 76-77 KAJ was more at his PEAK, than a '70 thru '72 KAJ. NONE. Show me his statistical advantages. Show me his defensive impact. Give me that DOMINANCE that a YOUNG Kareem shredded the NBA with. Hell, even inhis ROOKIE season, he had the HIGHEST scoring POST-SEASON of his career, and it included a series against the reigning MVP. Then reality was, Kareem was FAR more dominant in those years in EVERY aspect of his game, including defense and TEAM success.

As for these RIDICULOUS Bird-Magic discussions...H2H's, TEAM SUCCESS, playoff H2H's, MVPs, FMVPs, overall post-season play...MAGIC, and by a MILE.

Now, get on with your life, and find something else in which you might actually be good at.

[dankok8]

I just have to laugh at those that continue to protect Bird in these discussions. Magic was the better player...plain-and-simple. And for those that claim that Magic had better supporting casts,...just how in the hell did Magic take the 89-90 Lakers to a 63-19 record, and then follow that up by taking an injury-riddle roster that was in state of rapid decline, to a 58-24 record and a trip to the Finals in his last season?

The reality was, Bird had at least the equal of Magic in terms of supporting rosters. He was playing alongside THREE to FOUR other HOFers every season in his career.

And let's dispense with this "tougher" Eastern Conference nonsense right now. In '80 and '82, the Lakers easily beat the 76ers. Hell, they won a clinching game, in a rout, on the road, and without KAJ for cryingoutloud. Yet, those two teams were continually battling each other in series that were decided by 1-2 points. Clearly, it would have made no difference had LA been in the East.

I'll agree that the '83 Sixers were arguably the best team of the decade (although the '87 Lakers are right there), but Boston didn't even face them. They were busy choking away a sweeping loss to the under-dog Bucks in that post-season. And here is a good question while we are at it. How many titles does Moses win with a good supporting cast from '79 thru '83? He was just waxing a helpless KAJ in all of those seasons...and even in the playoffs with half the surrounding talent.

BTW, for those that argue that the '86 Celtics were the best team of the decade...it is just too bad that LA stumbled against the Rockets that post-season. The reality was, the '84 Lakers HANDED the Finals to Boston. By even Bird's own admission, LA should have SWEPT Boston that year (and yes, they should have.) In '85, after KAJ awoke from his slumber in game one, the Lakers overpowered Boston winning four of the next five, including a massacre in LA, and a solid clinching road win in Boston. And in '87, the Lakers won three games in which they had 20+ point leads, and another in Boston, on a Magic mini-hook (while Bird choked yet again with a brick at the buzzer.) IMHO, the Lakers from '84 thru '87 were CLEARLY the better team. And yes, Magic was the better player (despite Bird winning three straight MVPs.)

Magic was better H2H (and could have scored much more had he so chosen...hell, he had the TWO highest scoring games in their H2H's.) He was CLEARLY a better player in post-season...again, Bird had a slight edge in '81, '84, and solid edge in '86...Magic had an overwhelming edge in '80, '82, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, and '91. In their H2H's there were times where Bird was only the FIFTH best player on the floor, and not even the best player on his own team.

And I have posted the MANY post-season "choke jobs" that Bird put up. Needless to say, he lost SEVEN times with HCA. But not only that, he had SEVERAL AWFUL performances in them, as well. It is one thing to lose in a playoff series, it is quite another to blow chunks all over the floor in the process.

So, one more damned time...Magic >>> Bird.

I agree the teammate argument is weak. Bird's teams certainly had a lot more defensive talent than Magic's so it evens out.

The conference argument holds water though. Magic could cruise through the playoffs busting weak teams while Bird had to fight for his life just to make the finals. His Celtics teams were often bruised and injured facing the Lakers.

If you think Magic > Bird from '84 to '86 period that's a big problem though. Bird was a monster in those 3 consecutive postseasons. He had a slight drop in the '85 Finals because of injury but overall it's no contest. Bird won 3 straight MVP's as well.

[dankok8]

The Laker's organization got Kareem just as he entered what is the usual prime for a center 28 years old. Why didn't he get that type of franchise contract? Trust me it, Magic was in operation for the franchise in all of his early moves, especially with Westhead who was more tolerable than Kareem. Nixon and Magic by nature could not co-exist together as he ran the team differently than Magic and Magic, who supposedly couldn't tolerate a nice coach, tolerated another point guard who was contrary to him stylistically on the team for three years, and Kareem who goes to management about him.

Kareem went to management about Magic's contract and threatened to leave the team. And trust me, back then this was totally uncool and not old school. One might expect the spoil brats of today to do that but back then you just didn't do that. He was real sensitive about the criticism he received about not hustling and the movie airplane even has several jokes about it.

What does that prove? That Kareem was a dick that he was upset about the contract situation? I don't recall ever reading that he threatened to leave or anything like that.

And by the way he was more than happy to give Magic the green light in the 86-87 season and take a step back. Kareem was a pretty freaking unselfish player.


Winner's find a way particularly in times when others are doing it alone and teams were weak for five years. It was the time of opportunity. Rick Barry didn't have any of those benefits you described above either. Hayes on the downside of his career didn't have that benefit either. I don't think Jack Sikma had one either.

Barry's title was a fluke. Which other great player led a clearly underdog team to a title? Dirk in 2011? So about twice in almost 60 years since the merger... Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt etc. never did it either.


More impressive in terms of their ability to win it all without a top ten GOAT next to them. And I'm talking about their decade accomplishment, not that year cause Kareem was much better than them stat wise every year without doubt. But they won it all without an Oscar Robinson (a guy that Kareem says could probably beat himself and Jordan one on one), Goodrich or a prime Danderidge, or a vet team of years together of Nixon, Dantley, Allen with seasoned champs Wilkes and Cazzie. Teams back then were rarely as seasoned except the Celtics who weren't competing in the later part of the year.

Oscar in '71 was WAY REMOVED from his peak years. He was very good still but not on that level. And then in '72 WCF vs. LA and '74 Finals vs. Boston he was a shell of himself.


He wasn't better than Jordan as an individual player and this isn't questionable, not better than Magic or Bird as a team player. Like I said the game was decentralized before Wallton came up or when Wilt left the game. Walton also has Magic ahead of Bird.

Kareem's 70-73 stretch can go up against any player statistically and impact-wise. His playoff performances in his prime and overall resume can also stack up to anybody.

Kareem is definitely a Tier 1 player with a strong case for GOAT. I'm not saying he is GOAT but he's in the discussion along with Jordan and Russell IMO. Quite honestly I refuse to tank those 3 in any order. It's so difficult and they reach proved their GOAT status differently.


Great enough that Barry could win it with teams worse than Kareem and Hayes could win it all in similar fashion. After '74 there were no consistent winners in the '70's. That's the time to assert yourself when its open like that. There is no five year span, '75 thru '79, where there is a greater opportunity to win a ring since '55 and maybe beyond that.

Elvin Hayes had Wes Unseld and Bob Dandridge in their absolute primes and a strong well-rounded cast. Sikma in Seattle had the best backcourt in the league. Ever heard of Gus Williams, Dennis Johnson, and "Downtown" Freddie Brown. They combined for 60+ ppg against Kareem's Lakers in the '78 and '79 playoffs and completely obliterated the LA backcourt.


Steals, after the game was decentralized on Kareem's watch, are more valuable than blocks are. A steal is a turnover and usually, when Magic did it, two points or three points on the other end. A block, unless its a Wilt/Russell block, is more than likely NOT a turnover, much less two or three points. As a value statement Magic's steals were one of the biggest defensive plays there was. Not only could it be a five point turn around but it was demoralizing and kept the offensive team on their heels. The other team took less chances and played more reserved because of fear of Magic's running ability. Magic affected offenses in ways that if you understand the game, were pretty thorough. And this is definitely under defense:

Sure that's true but you're quite alone in any assertion that Magic was a good let alone great defender.


Like I said in another thread about the '85 finals. The reason the Celtic backcourt shot 20% and had seven turnovers while playing conservatively and nearly maxed out their fouls, was because of their responsibilities to contain Magic. Magic had totally devastated their backcourt and contributed to why Bird missed 17 shots. A lot of players could not play Magic's pace.

Magic had impact but in '85 he wasn't clearly better than Kareem. In the Finals Kareem was definitely better.


If Kareem was ever to meet Magic in a series, in the 80's, Magic would trashed his team because Magic would have ran him into the ground or picked apart the four on five.

A team led by prime Kareem would be way better on defense and on the boards. Honestly they probably would cream Magic's team assuming equal talent. So would Wilt's, Shaq's, and Hakeem's teams. Big men have more impact.

[dankok8]

First of all, what are my other "alts?"

Secondly, evidently you haven't read any of the MANY other posts on topics like Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Love, Hakeem, Duncan, Moses, players from the 60's, great teams, and the MANY in which I have praised KAJ. In fact, I could probably go one for hours.

And no, you are no more of a "Wilt" fan than Dankok8 is a "Magic" fan.

And again, give me some actual research with legitimate arguments in any of these "discussions" instead of your mindless and endless OPINIONS.

NOT one person here has given me or anyone else ANY proof, which shows that a 76-77 KAJ was more at his PEAK, than a '70 thru '72 KAJ. NONE. Show me his statistical advantages. Show me his defensive impact. Give me that DOMINANCE that a YOUNG Kareem shredded the NBA with. Hell, even inhis ROOKIE season, he had the HIGHEST scoring POST-SEASON of his career, and it included a series against the reigning MVP. Then reality was, Kareem was FAR more dominant in those years in EVERY aspect of his game, including defense and TEAM success.

As for these RIDICULOUS Bird-Magic discussions...H2H's, TEAM SUCCESS, playoff H2H's, MVPs, FMVPs, overall post-season play...MAGIC, and by a MILE.

Now, get on with your life, and find something else in which you might actually be good at.

Magic is my favorite all-time player. I believe his 86-87 peak is among the greatest in history and his '87 Finals is maybe the greatest offensive/all-around title series performance ever. Nobody was a more effective or creative passer in league history and at his peak Magic had a damn fine half-court game.

However Magic >> Bird is revisionist history. As is this notion that Magic was clearly better than Kareem before 86-87. Not the case... I love Magic but I don't let my personal bias come in the way. You don't realize it most likely but you cherry-pick stats that suit you and ignore other data that doesn't not further your point. For example let's talk about Bird's '81 series vs. Philly, numerous series vs. the Bucks (except '83), '84 and '86 Finals, '88 series vs. Atlanta. Guess they never happened huh?

[LAZERUSS]

I agree the teammate argument is weak. Bird's teams certainly had a lot more defensive talent than Magic's so it evens out.

The conference argument holds water though. Magic could cruise through the playoffs busting weak teams while Bird had to fight for his life just to make the finals. His Celtics teams were often bruised and injured facing the Lakers.

If you think Magic > Bird from '84 to '86 period that's a big problem though. Bird was a monster in those 3 consecutive postseasons. He had a slight drop in the '85 Finals because of injury but overall it's no contest. Bird won 3 straight MVP's as well.

Even if I were to concede '84 thru '86, Magic was still the better player the rest of their careers.

But just for the record, here were Magic's stats (which, of course, don't come close to true impact)...

83-84: 17.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 13.1 apg, .565 FG%, .810 FT%, .628 TS%
84-85: 18.3 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 12.6 apg, .561 FG%, .843 FT%, .637 TS%
85-86: 18.8 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 12.6 apg, .526 FG%, .871 FT%, .610 TS%

Post-season:

83-84: 18.2 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 13.5 apg, .551 FG%, .800 FT%, .601 TS%
84-85: 17.5 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.2 apg, .513 FG%, .847 FT%, .599 TS%
85-86: 21.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.1 apg, .537 FG%, .766 FT%, .599 TS%

And I would argue that he had better seasons, and post-seasons, in his career, as well.

As a sidenote, he would have had a monster year in 80-81 had he not been injured.

21.6 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 8.6 apg (and not even the fulltime PG, either), .532 FG%, .760 FT%, and a .582 TS% (and he would have led the league in spg at 3.4.)

[LAZERUSS]

However Magic >> Bird is revisionist history. As is this notion that Magic was clearly better than Kareem before 86-87. Not the case... I love Magic but I don't let my personal bias come in the way. You don't realize it most likely but you cherry-pick stats that suit you and ignore other data that doesn't not further your point. For example let's talk about Bird's '81 series vs. Philly, numerous series vs. the Bucks (except '83), '84 and '86 Finals, '88 series vs. Atlanta. Guess they never happened huh?

Again, including the post-season, and Magic was better than Bird from '80 thru '83 (and I will give you Bird's disgraceful Finals in '81.)

And, including the post-season, Magic was better in '85. No question.

So, Bird was better, using FULL seasons, in '81 (just barely), '84 (just barely), and '86 (solidly.) Magic routs him in every other season.

KAJ was still a great offensive player up until '85-86. After that he was role player, and Magic would have won rings in both '87 and '88 without him. But, Magic COULD have been a dominant scorer from '80 thru '86 had been tasked with it. There are just too many games which clearly show that capability, including a clinching game six, without KAJ, of 42 points, in his ROOKIE season.

And, again, Magic outvoted KAJ in the MVP balloting in their last EIGHT seasons together. And, because of KAJ, it cost Magic in the MVP voting overall throughout the 80's. But everyone in the NBA, AND the Laker organization KNEW that Magic was clearly the Lakers best player. Why? Because he made EVERY player on those team's better.

Sorry, but KAJ road Magic's coat-tails to FIVE NBA titles, with only '80 as a legitimate claim to a "co-title." Even his '85 Finals was overshadowed by Magic's PLAYOFF dominance that season. And it was no coincidence that when Magic arrived, LA immediately became a champion, and were still 60+ winners after Kareem retired, but, when Magic retired, LA immediately dropped to seasons of 43-39 and 39-43.

Magic would have been winning titles in the 80's without Kareem. But there is simply no way KAJ would have won any without Magic.

[eliteballer]

Magic was 3 years younger than Bird and outplayed Peak Bird in two out of 3 finals.

Go ahead and post the 3 finals averages...Magic blows him out of the water.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic was 3 years younger than Bird and outplayed Peak Bird in two out of 3 finals.

Go ahead and post the 3 finals averages...Magic blows him out of the water.

No need. In the post-season Magic had higher peaks, longer peaks, didn't choke nearly as often, had more team success, outplayed him H2H, and was clearly better in nine of those 12 post-seasons.

[AlphaWolf24]

Why do white people say Bird was better than Magic?




fixed.

[BIZARRO]

No need. In the post-season Magic had higher peaks, longer peaks, didn't choke nearly as often, had more team success, outplayed him H2H, and was clearly better in nine of those 12 post-seasons.

Sorry man, not sure how old you are, but I watched it all. And what you're saying sounds pretty good on paper, but doesn't pass the eye test.

Bird was definitely considered the better player before '86. I remember that clearly. For the thousandth time, Bird was going up against Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, and the most intimidating playoff defense of all time with long rangy forwards in the bad boys Pistons, Rodman, etc..
You can't go with head to head stats here, because of THAT alone, and because it's easier to pass over small guards and rack up assists than it is to score in these series.
Think of yourself going into a gym, and the guy guarding you is your D3 little brother. You're gonna put up numbers. Now they switch up and put a D1 guy whose just as big as you, quick, and has one sole purpose of stopping you, and he looks like Michael Cooper. You ain't gonna put up numbers.

And if you think the East wasn't tougher than the West back then, you're high.
Magic's Lakers always cruised through high scoring series to rack up stats and be fresher for the finals. Always.
I always thought Magic had the much better supporting cast too. Jabbar, Worthy, and much more athletic, longer scorers and defenders.
If you put Bird with Jabbar and Worthy and Cooper and Scott and Wilkes, etc.,forget it they would have kicked the Celtics a**. You may not think that, I know that.

All said I have no agenda, I'll take Magic. But it is barely.

[dankok8]

Even if I were to concede '84 thru '86, Magic was still the better player the rest of their careers.

But just for the record, here were Magic's stats (which, of course, don't come close to true impact)...

83-84: 17.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 13.1 apg, .565 FG%, .810 FT%, .628 TS%
84-85: 18.3 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 12.6 apg, .561 FG%, .843 FT%, .637 TS%
85-86: 18.8 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 12.6 apg, .526 FG%, .871 FT%, .610 TS%

Post-season:

83-84: 18.2 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 13.5 apg, .551 FG%, .800 FT%, .601 TS%
84-85: 17.5 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.2 apg, .513 FG%, .847 FT%, .599 TS%
85-86: 21.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.1 apg, .537 FG%, .766 FT%, .599 TS%

And I would argue that he had better seasons, and post-seasons, in his career, as well.

As a sidenote, he would have had a monster year in 80-81 had he not been injured.

21.6 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 8.6 apg (and not even the fulltime PG, either), .532 FG%, .760 FT%, and a .582 TS% (and he would have led the league in spg at 3.4.)

Magic had nice stats and good impact on top of that but Bird did a lot outside of stats as well.


Again, including the post-season, and Magic was better than Bird from '80 thru '83 (and I will give you Bird's disgraceful Finals in '81.)

And, including the post-season, Magic was better in '85. No question.

So, Bird was better, using FULL seasons, in '81 (just barely), '84 (just barely), and '86 (solidly.) Magic routs him in every other season.

KAJ was still a great offensive player up until '85-86. After that he was role player, and Magic would have won rings in both '87 and '88 without him. But, Magic COULD have been a dominant scorer from '80 thru '86 had been tasked with it. There are just too many games which clearly show that capability, including a clinching game six, without KAJ, of 42 points, in his ROOKIE season.

And, again, Magic outvoted KAJ in the MVP balloting in their last EIGHT seasons together. And, because of KAJ, it cost Magic in the MVP voting overall throughout the 80's. But everyone in the NBA, AND the Laker organization KNEW that Magic was clearly the Lakers best player. Why? Because he made EVERY player on those team's better.

Sorry, but KAJ road Magic's coat-tails to FIVE NBA titles, with only '80 as a legitimate claim to a "co-title." Even his '85 Finals was overshadowed by Magic's PLAYOFF dominance that season. And it was no coincidence that when Magic arrived, LA immediately became a champion, and were still 60+ winners after Kareem retired, but, when Magic retired, LA immediately dropped to seasons of 43-39 and 39-43.

Magic would have been winning titles in the 80's without Kareem. But there is simply no way KAJ would have won any without Magic.


You give way too much weight to Game 6 of the '80 Finals. It's just one game bro! It doesn't make him anywhere near as good as Kareem (or Bird) in that season.

And seriously you should concede the '84 to '86 period. Bird won 3 straight MVP's, easily outplayed Magic in the '84 Finals, and was slightly outplayed in the '85 Finals playing through injury. In the '85 postseason until Game 4 of the ECF when he got injured, Bird averaged 29/9/7 on 49% shooting. You don't like to rip Wilt when he's injured but you sure have no problem doing so to Bird. Be objective.

And I like your double standards. Magic > Kareem in 1980 because of one spectacular game in the finals but Magic > Kareem in 1985 because he was better in the regular season.

Truth is Kareem was easily better than Magic in 1980 (everyone will tell you that...) and they were 1a/1b in 1985 with neither having a clear edge.

[dankok8]

And as a minor point. Kareem wasn't a role player in '87. He put up 21/7 in the finals and had a monster closeout Game 6. Magic was EASILY BETTER than Jabbar that whole year but Kareem was an all-star C. I honestly don't think LA would have won without him. In '88 they probably could...

[Pointguard]

What does that prove? That Kareem was a dick that he was upset about the contract situation? I don't recall ever reading that he threatened to leave or anything like that.
We were discussing whose team was it? If the franchise gave the key to Magic, if Kareem got very upset about them giving him the keys then its obvious that Kareem knows, does it really matter what the press thinks? To pretend like Pat Riley didn't know that his main decision maker and coach on the floor didn't know managements dynamics is a bit crazy. Do you really think that the franchise and coach didn't know whose team it was? Magic handled Kareem with kid gloves on.



And by the way he was more than happy to give Magic the green light in the 86-87 season and take a step back. Kareem was a pretty freaking unselfish player.
Not if you are comparing him to Magic. If Magic asserted himself and his power, he could have gotten rid of the guy that stood in the way of him scoring.



Barry's title was a fluke. Which other great player led a clearly underdog team to a title? Dirk in 2011? So about twice in almost 60 years since the merger... Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt etc. never did it either.
There were no consistent winners after '74. That's when stuff like that happens. Dallas was a lot like the Pistons in that they were a good team - best three point shooting team in the playoffs, best SF stand on defense ever, best SG defensive stand ever in the playoffs ever as well. There were other underdogs that won as well. What was rare with Barry was one offensive player doing that type of damage.



Oscar in '71 was WAY REMOVED from his peak years. He was very good still but not on that level. And then in '72 WCF vs. LA and '74 Finals vs. Boston he was a shell of himself.

In '74 he wasn't himself but in 72 he is still one of the smartest players around and a great player. But Kareem had an unbelievable season that year and it was his most complete great year in every way.



Kareem's 70-73 stretch can go up against any player statistically and impact-wise. His playoff performances in his prime and overall resume can also stack up to anybody.
While I think his defense was better than Shaq's his impact wasn't on par as Shaq's '00 - '02. There was nothing left to be desired those years from Shaq and perhaps was the biggest earthquake splash we've seen. But even Shaq wasn't as dominant as Jordan's top three years. If you go performance wise Wilt's top three years were better too. If you go team wise Magic from '87 thru '89 would be better as no team ever looked better. And then Bird from '84-'86.


Kareem is definitely a Tier 1 player with a strong case for GOAT. I'm not saying he is GOAT but he's in the discussion along with Jordan and Russell IMO. Quite honestly I refuse to tank those 3 in any order. It's so difficult and they reach proved their GOAT status differently.

I think Kareem has a case. But Jordan dominated a group of HOF centers, even one that was more dominant than Kareem, while Kareem had trouble with the few great ones (Mac and Moses) that came up in his prime. Magic was unquestionably the greatest winner in the most competitive era.




Elvin Hayes had Wes Unseld and Bob Dandridge in their absolute primes and a strong well-rounded cast. Sikma in Seattle had the best backcourt in the league. Ever heard of Gus Williams, Dennis Johnson, and "Downtown" Freddie Brown. They combined for 60+ ppg against Kareem's Lakers in the '78 and '79 playoffs and completely obliterated the LA backcourt.
You know full well I talked about Gus Williams and that DJ was one of the best clutch shooters in the 80's. When Magic came aboard that same Supersonic team was handed their heads. Must be that the game was more about the guards than it was about the center huh?


Sure that's true but you're quite alone in any assertion that Magic was a good let alone great defender.
A player with a great affect on three player's ability to make shots in an elimination game. As great a defensive affect as any one player in recent memory. This is with a super hot Bird and one of the most clutch players in the game missing at a 70% clip. If you don't call it defense, then give Magic his own category called control of game damage. It totally eliminated Bird
s, Ainge's and DJ's capacity to be effective.



Magic had impact but in '85 he wasn't clearly better than Kareem. In the Finals Kareem was definitely better.

Sorry but McHale pretty much cancelled out Kareem. He outrebounded him, shot pretty much the same percentage and outscored him. And Kareem was guarding him. Magic totally killed Boston on the run. He ran them to death. You rarely see a player ever average 14 assist per game on a great defensive team. All of the Laker's wins were by more than 10 points (game 2 ended up closer than what the game was ended) which is because Magic found the holes in the defense and gets all the easy baskets on the break. Worthy's high scoring is also very indicative of Magic's control. All of Magic's primary targets shot incredibly well against a top defensive team. You can go by who had the biggest numbers thing if you want to misunderstand the game. Those who know better, know that the game is won in how it is played.


A team led by prime Kareem would be way better on defense and on the boards. Honestly they probably would cream Magic's team assuming equal talent. So would Wilt's, Shaq's, and Hakeem's teams. Big men have more impact.
In the '80 Magic is very close to outrebounding Kareem himself - were did you get that from? You don't know. During Kareem's watch the center position died down significantly. After Wilt left in 73 Kareem didn't win won ring without Magic or the seven years before Magic. Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing did not win a ring on prime Jordan's or Magic's healthy watch and they had about 30 chances between them. Shaq had better teammates than any contemporary, and Kobe still has more rings than him. If you take out the Kareem/Magic equation and Kobe/Shaq you only have two years of center position impact and those two years were loaned out by the GOAT.

Bird and Magic changed the game and made it so that if you are a smart skilled player (Kobe, Duncan, Lebron) you can have at least equal impact. Jordan proved to be GOAT. After Kareem's arrival, the game was shortly thereafter decentralized. Bird and Magic were the icing on the cake.

[LAZERUSS]

Sorry man, not sure how old you are, but I watched it all. And what you're saying sounds pretty good on paper, but doesn't pass the eye test.

Bird was definitely considered the better player before '86. I remember that clearly. For the thousandth time, Bird was going up against Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, and the most intimidating playoff defense of all time with long rangy forwards in the bad boys Pistons, Rodman, etc..
You can't go with head to head stats here, because of THAT alone, and because it's easier to pass over small guards and rack up assists than it is to score in these series.
Think of yourself going into a gym, and the guy guarding you is your D3 little brother. You're gonna put up numbers. Now they switch up and put a D1 guy whose just as big as you, quick, and has one sole purpose of stopping you, and he looks like Michael Cooper. You ain't gonna put up numbers.

And if you think the East wasn't tougher than the West back then, you're high.
Magic's Lakers always cruised through high scoring series to rack up stats and be fresher for the finals. Always.
I always thought Magic had the much better supporting cast too. Jabbar, Worthy, and much more athletic, longer scorers and defenders.
If you put Bird with Jabbar and Worthy and Cooper and Scott and Wilkes, etc.,forget it they would have kicked the Celtics a**. You may not think that, I know that.

All said I have no agenda, I'll take Magic. But it is barely.

I saw the vast majority of the Bird-Magic, Celtics-Lakers H2H's (as well as the entire NBA in the 80's.)

And I'm sorry, but Bird was nowhere the consensus better player from '80 thru '83. He edged Magic in the MVP voting, but Magic was hurt by two things, one, KAJ robbing votes from him; and two, he was blamed for the Westhead firing (which, as I pointed out, was imminent long before his flare up.) And, if you include the post-seasons, well, Magic ran away with being the best player in those four years.

Bird did win three straight MVPs, and while I would acknowledge that he deserved them, Magic's IMPACT was nearly equal. And, again, in the '85 post-season, Magic was definitely, and I mean definitely, the better player. Bird was only the FIFTH best player in that series, and McHale clearly was Boston's best player.

Of course, from '87 on Magic pulled away. Bird had his best regular season in '88, but then, as usual, gagged in the post-season. Meanwhile, Magic torched that same Piston team that had limited Bird. In fact, Magic was robbed in the MVP voting in that Finals, by Worthy.

It was not close. Not in terms of careers. I wouldn't even claim that a peak Bird was better than a peak Magic. Overall, and by a solid margin...MAGIC.

[LAZERUSS]

And I like your double standards. Magic > Kareem in 1980 because of one spectacular game in the finals but Magic > Kareem in 1985 because he was better in the regular season.

Magic's 1980 Finals' numbers:

21.5 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 8.7 apg (and SHARING the PG with Nixon), .573 FG%, and an .875 FT%.

And, he PLAYED in every game. I would argue that had Kareem not been on that team, that Magic would have been putting up 30+ point games in every game. Not saying that they would have won the series without KAJ, but Magic did prove that he could win a key game without him...and with a greater Finals game than Kareem EVER had in his 20 year career.

As for '85. KAJ deserved the FMVP. Magic was CLEARLY the Lakers PLAYOFF MVP.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Damn, jlauber (with his alt too) getting owned time and time again, yet continue to post long-ass, ignorant essays :facepalm Sad while funny.

[LAZERUSS]

Damn, jlauber (with his alt too) getting owned time and time again, yet continue to post long-ass, ignorant essays :facepalm Sad while funny.

Who is this "alt", and who is "owning me?"

jlauber? He is dead according to your alt, Millwad.

And have you read any of his posts here lately?

Goota love it. When someone agrees with me, they have to be an "alt."

You need to get find another hobby. Something that doesn't require any knowledge.

[necya]

Sorry man, not sure how old you are, but I watched it all. And what you're saying sounds pretty good on paper, but doesn't pass the eye test.

Bird was definitely considered the better player before '86. I remember that clearly. For the thousandth time, Bird was going up against Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, and the most intimidating playoff defense of all time with long rangy forwards in the bad boys Pistons, Rodman, etc..
You can't go with head to head stats here, because of THAT alone, and because it's easier to pass over small guards and rack up assists than it is to score in these series.
Think of yourself going into a gym, and the guy guarding you is your D3 little brother. You're gonna put up numbers. Now they switch up and put a D1 guy whose just as big as you, quick, and has one sole purpose of stopping you, and he looks like Michael Cooper. You ain't gonna put up numbers.

And if you think the East wasn't tougher than the West back then, you're high.
Magic's Lakers always cruised through high scoring series to rack up stats and be fresher for the finals. Always.
I always thought Magic had the much better supporting cast too. Jabbar, Worthy, and much more athletic, longer scorers and defenders.
If you put Bird with Jabbar and Worthy and Cooper and Scott and Wilkes, etc.,forget it they would have kicked the Celtics a**. You may not think that, I know that.

All said I have no agenda, I'll take Magic. But it is barely.

the Bird / Magic discussion deserves this kind of comment...finally something worthy to read on ISH.
i just read 5 pages of agendas, people using stupid "arguments", comparing numbers :face palm please let that to the kids.

[LAZERUSS]

Damn, jlauber (with his alt too) getting owned time and time again, yet continue to post long-ass, ignorant essays :facepalm Sad while funny.

Getting "owned?"

I don't see too many folks here claiming that Bird was greater than Magic. "Most people..."

BTW, all I have read from your research is EXCUSES for Bird's POOR play in the MAJORITY of his post-seasons. Magic had excuses too, (like '81), but overall, didn't need ANY.

[mehyaM24]

We were discussing whose team was it? If the franchise gave the key to Magic, if Kareem got very upset about them giving him the keys then its obvious that Kareem knows, does it really matter what the press thinks? To pretend like Pat Riley didn't know that his main decision maker and coach on the floor didn't know managements dynamics is a bit crazy. Do you really think that the franchise and coach didn't know whose team it was? Magic handled Kareem with kid gloves on.


Not if you are comparing him to Magic. If Magic asserted himself and his power, he could have gotten rid of the guy that stood in the way of him scoring.


There were no consistent winners after '74. That's when stuff like that happens. Dallas was a lot like the Pistons in that they were a good team - best three point shooting team in the playoffs, best SF stand on defense ever, best SG defensive stand ever in the playoffs ever as well. There were other underdogs that won as well. What was rare with Barry was one offensive player doing that type of damage.


In '74 he wasn't himself but in 72 he is still one of the smartest players around and a great player. But Kareem had an unbelievable season that year and it was his most complete great year in every way.


While I think his defense was better than Shaq's his impact wasn't on par as Shaq's '00 - '02. There was nothing left to be desired those years from Shaq and perhaps was the biggest earthquake splash we've seen. But even Shaq wasn't as dominant as Jordan's top three years. If you go performance wise Wilt's top three years were better too. If you go team wise Magic from '87 thru '89 would be better as no team ever looked better. And then Bird from '84-'86.

I think Kareem has a case. But Jordan dominated a group of HOF centers, even one that was more dominant than Kareem, while Kareem had trouble with the few great ones (Mac and Moses) that came up in his prime. Magic was unquestionably the greatest winner in the most competitive era.



You know full well I talked about Gus Williams and that DJ was one of the best clutch shooters in the 80's. When Magic came aboard that same Supersonic team was handed their heads. Must be that the game was more about the guards than it was about the center huh?

A player with a great affect on three player's ability to make shots in an elimination game. As great a defensive affect as any one player in recent memory. This is with a super hot Bird and one of the most clutch players in the game missing at a 70% clip. If you don't call it defense, then give Magic his own category called control of game damage. It totally eliminated Bird
s, Ainge's and DJ's capacity to be effective.



Sorry but McHale pretty much cancelled out Kareem. He outrebounded him, shot pretty much the same percentage and outscored him. And Kareem was guarding him. Magic totally killed Boston on the run. He ran them to death. You rarely see a player ever average 14 assist per game on a great defensive team. All of the Laker's wins were by more than 10 points (game 2 ended up closer than what the game was ended) which is because Magic found the holes in the defense and gets all the easy baskets on the break. Worthy's high scoring is also very indicative of Magic's control. All of Magic's primary targets shot incredibly well against a top defensive team. You can go by who had the biggest numbers thing if you want to misunderstand the game. Those who know better, know that the game is won in how it is played.

In the '80 Magic is very close to outrebounding Kareem himself - were did you get that from? You don't know. During Kareem's watch the center position died down significantly. After Wilt left in 73 Kareem didn't win won ring without Magic or the seven years before Magic. Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing did not win a ring on prime Jordan's or Magic's healthy watch and they had about 30 chances between them. Shaq had better teammates than any contemporary, and Kobe still has more rings than him. If you take out the Kareem/Magic equation and Kobe/Shaq you only have two years of center position impact and those two years were loaned out by the GOAT.

Bird and Magic changed the game and made it so that if you are a smart skilled player (Kobe, Duncan, Lebron) you can have at least equal impact. Jordan proved to be GOAT. After Kareem's arrival, the game was shortly thereafter decentralized. Bird and Magic were the icing on the cake.

kareem is overrated....but your post is laughable. you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

btw, bill Russell was better than wilt....no question about it.....wilt rebounded like a schoolgirl in the entire 60s and road jerry west's coattails....the lakers were better without wilt.....that's why in game 7 of the 1969 finals they made a run with him on the bench.

[LAZERUSS]

kareem is overrated....but your post is laughable. you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

btw, bill Russell was better than wilt....no question about it.....wilt rebounded like a schoolgirl in the entire 60s and road jerry west's coattails....the lakers were better without wilt.....that's why in game 7 of the 1969 finals they made a run with him on the bench.

I honestly don't think there is one bit of truth to any of the above post. I could not find one point that was accurate.

[fpliii]

Damn, I rate Bird way higher than most. Maybe I need to rewatch some tape.

[LAZERUSS]

Damn, I rate Bird way higher than most. Maybe I need to rewatch some tape.

Well, I can respect your opinion...even if I might disagree with it. But, I'm sure that you would at least be able to provide some actual research to back up your stance. Unfortunately, on this Forum, the majority of the Bird-lovers can only use opinions (and laced with EXCUSES), with absolutely nothing to back them up.

[Big#50]

Pajaro es el major. Legend. Greatness. No injury and he is the best ever. Amazing. Never ever gonna be another Bird. watching him play is like ****ing a supermodel virgin. Nobody compares. Just ****ing sick.

[fpliii]

Well, I can respect your opinion...even if I might disagree with it. But, I'm sure that you would at least be able to provide some actual research to back up your stance. Unfortunately, on this Forum, the majority of the Bird-lovers can only use opinions (and laced with EXCUSES), with absolutely nothing to back them up.
Well, I don't have a GOAT list, as you know, so I'm just rating in terms of quality as a player. If this is a resume battle Magic will win out.

Just from watching games of Bird though, from 79-80 through 87-88, I just think he was on a higher level entirely as a player than Magic ever was. This is entirely subjective and hard to describe, but it's just the impression I get.

I don't have a problem with anybody's opinion on the matter, as I'm sure each person came to his conclusions on his own. I just don't see it, from watching their games or looking at the data.

Again, I haven't researched it too much so I probably shouldn't comment, just the impression I get.

:confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

Sorry man, not sure how old you are, but I watched it all. And what you're saying sounds pretty good on paper, but doesn't pass the eye test.

Bird was definitely considered the better player before '86. I remember that clearly. For the thousandth time, Bird was going up against Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, and the most intimidating playoff defense of all time with long rangy forwards in the bad boys Pistons, Rodman, etc..
You can't go with head to head stats here, because of THAT alone, and because it's easier to pass over small guards and rack up assists than it is to score in these series.
Think of yourself going into a gym, and the guy guarding you is your D3 little brother. You're gonna put up numbers. Now they switch up and put a D1 guy whose just as big as you, quick, and has one sole purpose of stopping you, and he looks like Michael Cooper. You ain't gonna put up numbers.

And if you think the East wasn't tougher than the West back then, you're high.
Magic's Lakers always cruised through high scoring series to rack up stats and be fresher for the finals. Always.
I always thought Magic had the much better supporting cast too. Jabbar, Worthy, and much more athletic, longer scorers and defenders.
If you put Bird with Jabbar and Worthy and Cooper and Scott and Wilkes, etc.,forget it they would have kicked the Celtics a**. You may not think that, I know that.

All said I have no agenda, I'll take Magic. But it is barely.

You must know jacks**t then my friend. Rookie Magic was able to carry a team to a clinching blowout road win, withOUT Kareem.

He also led a Laker team to a 63-19 record withOUT Kareem, and then followed that up by taking an injury-riddled and rapidly declining roster to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals, in his LAST season.

And for the record, I am CONVINCED that they could have plugged Stanley Hudson into Kareem's slot in the '88 post-season and won a title. Kareem was absolutely AWFUL in that post-season, and then was even WORSE in the Finals (and I can't recall any other GOAT candidate ever having a worse game seven.) They won a title that season, DESPITE Kareem.

And I will contend that they were deep and talented enough to have won a title in '87 without him, too. Thompson and Green proved they could fill his shoes.

[Pointguard]

kareem is overrated....but your post is laughable. you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

btw, bill Russell was better than wilt....no question about it.....wilt rebounded like a schoolgirl in the entire 60s and road jerry west's coattails....the lakers were better without wilt.....that's why in game 7 of the 1969 finals they made a run with him on the bench.
Did somebody just fart?

[Pointguard]

Who is this "alt", and who is "owning me?"

jlauber? He is dead according to your alt, Millwad.

And have you read any of his posts here lately?

Goota love it. When someone agrees with me, they have to be an "alt."

You need to get find another hobby. Something that doesn't require any knowledge.

I don't think he's Millwood, Millwood would debate and know how create his own arguments rather than imagining other people are doing it impressively for him.

[LAZERUSS]

Well, I don't have a GOAT list, as you know, so I'm just rating in terms of quality as a player. If this is a resume battle Magic will win out.

Just from watching games of Bird though, from 79-80 through 87-88, I just think he was on a higher level entirely as a player than Magic ever was. This is entirely subjective and hard to describe, but it's just the impression I get.

I don't have a problem with anybody's opinion on the matter, as I'm sure each person came to his conclusions on his own. I just don't see it, from watching their games or looking at the data.

Again, I haven't researched it too much so I probably shouldn't comment, just the impression I get.

:confusedshrug:

I saw both of them play in their entire careers. Other than the three-peat Bird, (and again, Magic was MUCH better in their Finals H2H that season, and in the playoffs in general), I had Magic over him every single season the two were in the league together.

The problem for Magic, was that he was asked to run the offense. Could he scored more? Absolutely. He proved that time-and-again in his career. Hell in the BIRD-MAGIC career H2H's, it was MAGIC with the TWO highest scoring games. I have no doubt that Magic could have put up 30 ppg seasons in the 80's. My god, look at his FG% and TS%'s. Until Lebron came along, Magic had, by far, the most efficient seasons by a guard in NBA history (although, using eFG% league averages, Oscar had equal seasons in the 60's.)

And Magic was simply a more productive player in the post-season. Bird had some legendary AWFUL shooting series in his post-season career. He actually shot below the league average in his post-season career.

H2H Magic was better, and think about this...had Worthy not made ONE ill-advised pass in the '84 Finals, the Lakers would have won that series in six. And, had Magic not missed ONE FT, the Lakers would have SWEPT Boston in that series. They were one of those plays or shots away, from having a 3-0 record against Bird's Celtics in their three Finals' H2H's. Where do you think Bird would be on most of these "lists" under those circumstances?

I have provided their post-season info...and it is UGLY for Bird.

Again, Bird has a case for being better in '81 (but, he was awful in the Finals), '84 (again, ONE play away from Magic winning yet another FMVP), and solidly in '86. Magic RUNS AWAY with the better post-seasons in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, and '91.

Same number of MVPs, Magic with more FMVPs (and was robbed in '88), more Rings, More Finals, did more with less. Right down the line. Magic's RESUME is CLEARLY better than Bird's.

[fpliii]

I understand where you're coming from, but for each of these seasons, who was better in your opinion (not better season or playoffs run, per se, but who the superior player)?

79-80
80-81
81-82
82-83
83-84
84-85
85-86
86-87
87-88

[Pointguard]

Well, I don't have a GOAT list, as you know, so I'm just rating in terms of quality as a player. If this is a resume battle Magic will win out.

Just from watching games of Bird though, from 79-80 through 87-88, I just think he was on a higher level entirely as a player than Magic ever was. This is entirely subjective and hard to describe, but it's just the impression I get.

I don't have a problem with anybody's opinion on the matter, as I'm sure each person came to his conclusions on his own. I just don't see it, from watching their games or looking at the data.

Again, I haven't researched it too much so I probably shouldn't comment, just the impression I get.

:confusedshrug:
On the strength, Bird was a great combination of smarts, skills, full offensive repertoire, passing, rebounding, scoring, disarming the defense, and team play there are very few that could be as effective in his many ways.

[LAZERUSS]

I understand where you're coming from, but for each of these seasons, who was better in your opinion (not better season or playoffs run, per se, but who the superior player)?

79-80
80-81
81-82
82-83
83-84
84-85
85-86
86-87
87-88

ENTIRE seasons, and covering the post-season?

Magic in '80
Bird in '81
Magic in '82 (BTW a near triple-double regular AND post-season)
Magic in '83
Bird in '84
Magic in '85
Bird in '86
Magic in '87
Magic in '88
and beyond...

Again, research has clearly shown us that Magic could have scored far more in his career. So, using scoring against Johnson won't fly. Bird was a better rebounder, but Magic was among the greatest rebounding guards of all-time. And Magic was clearly a better passer (albeit, Bird, along with Lebron, are probably the two greatest passing Forwards of all-time.) Magic was MUCH more efficient, in... REGULAR season, POST-SEASON, and FINALS, as well as H2H.

And I have already debunked this ridiculous theory that he had better rosters. He won a title clinching game, on the road, without the regular season MVP. He led two teams, both on the decline BTW, and after KAJ, had retired, to records of 63-19 and 58-24 (and a trip to the Finals.) And I'm sorry KAJ fans, but he would have won a ring in '88 with ME at center, and likely would have won a ring in '87 with Green and Thompson splitting all the minutes at center.

[fpliii]

ENTIRE seasons, and covering the post-season?

Magic in '80
Bird in '81
Magic in '82 (BTW a near triple-double regular AND post-season)
Magic in '83
Bird in '84
Magic in '85
Bird in '86
Magic in '87
Magic in '88
and beyond...

Again, research has clearly shown us that Magic could have scored far more in his career. So, using scoring against Johnson won't fly. Bird was a better rebounder, but Magic was among the greatest rebounding guards of all-time. And Magic was clearly a better passer (albeit, Bird, along with Lebron, are probably the two greatest passing Forwards of all-time.) Magic was MUCH more efficient, in... REGULAR season, POST-SEASON, and FINALS, as well as H2H.

And I have already debunked this ridiculous theory that he had better rosters. He won a title clinching game, on the road, without the regular season MVP. He led two teams, both on the decline BTW, and after KAJ, had retired, to records of 63-19 and 58-24 (and a trip to the Finals.) And I'm sorry KAJ fans, but he would have won a ring in '88 with ME at center, and likely would have won a ring in '87 with Green and Thompson splitting all the minutes at center.
Interesting, thanks for your breakdown.

BTW I still have to finish "When the Game Was Ours", but here are a couple of good anecdotes from early on:

[QUOTE]When Kelser and Magic arrived back at their hotel, Kelser gathered the team together and told them to start locking into their game assignments.

"This Bird guy is really serious," Kelser reported. "He's already got his game face on."

Heathcote spent his entire practice before the championship game devising ways to slow Bird. His frustration grew as one after another of his subs impersonated number 33, yet failed to duplicate the kind of offensive firepower Heathcote knew was coming.

"This isn't working," Heathcote said. "You guys don't play anything like Bird. Earvin, you be Larry

[LAZERUSS]

Interesting, thanks for your breakdown.

BTW I still have to finish "When the Game Was Ours", but here are a couple of good anecdotes from early on:





There's also the story about the World Invitational Tournament, but this video does it better justice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjYuKvJS55E

Great stuff, as always.

BTW, I get crushed by the Bird fans here, but in all honesty, could you rank Bird higher (if you had a GOAT list), in terms of carrer success, with solid criteria, over these players?

MJ
Wilt
Russell
Magic
KAJ
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Kobe

[fpliii]

Great stuff, as always.

BTW, I get crushed by the Bird fans here, but in all honesty, could you rank Bird higher (if you had a GOAT list), in terms of carrer success, with solid criteria, over these players?

MJ
Wilt
Russell
Magic
KAJ
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Kobe
I don't rate in terms of career success though, just in terms of ability, impact and who I'd take in what order an all-time draft.

Apologies, legacy/GOAT lists don't interest me TBH.

[LAZERUSS]

I don't rate in terms of career success though, just in terms of ability, impact and who I'd take in what order an all-time draft.

Apologies, legacy/GOAT lists don't interest me TBH.

At least you are consistent.

As for myself, I try to use a combination of criteria (of which I provided in a post above.) And in terms of overall career resumes, I don't see Bird having a case, (or at best, a flimsy one) over those players I listed.

For example, did he have the IMPACT that Shaq had? Did he perform as brilliantly in the post-season, as Shaq did? How about their Finals? Was he a better scorer (how many scoring titles?) Was he a better rebounder? He did have more MVPs, but in reality, Shaq was the best player in the league in probably five seasons, while Bird could never claim that many. FMVP's? Rings? I mean, if you go right down the list, Shaq had a better overall resume.

Lebron? Scoring? Both in regular season and post-season? FMVP's? MVPs? Rings (yes, Bird is still clinging to an edge here), Finals performances, including game seven's? Team success (Lebron did more with less in Cleveland for sure.) Again, overall, and Lebron has a solid edge...and it will only get bigger.

In any case, I just don't see Bird having a case over any of those guys...

[fpliii]

At least you are consistent.

As for myself, I try to use a combination of criteria (of which I provided in a post above.) And in terms of overall career resumes, I don't see Bird having a case, (or at best, a flimsy one) over those players I listed.

For example, did he have the IMPACT that Shaq had? Did he perform as brilliantly in the post-season, as Shaq did? How about their Finals? Was he a better scorer (how many scoring titles?) Was he a better rebounder? He did have more MVPs, but in reality, Shaq was the best player in the league in probably five seasons, while Bird could never claim that many. FMVP's? Rings? I mean, if you go right down the list, Shaq had a better overall resume.

Lebron? Scoring? Both in regular season and post-season? FMVP's? MVPs? Rings (yes, Bird is still clinging to an edge here), Finals performances, including game seven's? Team success (Lebron did more with less in Cleveland for sure.) Again, overall, and Lebron has a solid edge...and it will only get bigger.

In any case, I just don't see Bird having a case over any of those guys...
Where do Oscar and Dr. J fit into all of this?

[LAZERUSS]

Where do Oscar and Dr. J fit into all of this?

You tell me.

Using Dr. J's prime seasons in the ABA, and then he has a case over Bird.

Oscar gets slammed for team success, but to be fair, he played in the Russell-Celtic Dynasty years (as well as the Wilt-Philly era). But think about this. He was traded to the Bucks in 70-71, and they went 66-16 and won a dominating world title. In 71-72 they went 63-19. In 72-73 they went 60-22. And in his last season, they went 59-23, and lost a game seven in the Finals. He retired, and they dropped to 38-44, and missed the playoffs. Not all of it was Oscar, but clearly his departure had a major impact.

In terms of statistical success, it is not even close. So, yes, Oscar has a case. And for those that like quotes, I am sure I could find plenty which had Oscar with at least a GOAT argument.

[fpliii]

You tell me.

Using Dr. J's prime seasons in the ABA, and then he has a case over Bird.

Oscar gets slammed for team success, but to be fair, he played in the Russell-Celtic Dynasty years (as well as the Wilt-Philly era). But think about this. He was traded to the Bucks in 70-71, and they went 66-16 and won a dominating world title. In 71-72 they went 63-19. In 72-73 they went 60-22. And in his last season, they went 59-23, and lost a game seven in the Finals. He retired, and they dropped to 38-44, and missed the playoffs. Not all of it was Oscar, but clearly his departure had a major impact.

In terms of statistical success, it is not even close. So, yes, Oscar has a case. And for those that like quotes, I am sure I could find plenty which had Oscar with at least a GOAT argument.
I have Oscar in the discussion for GOAT offensive peak.

The thing about Doc is, I actually think he contributed a good deal of his value on the defensive end. Tremendous help defender, one of the best ever perhaps.

His G6 of the 76 Finals (against Bobby Jones) has to be one of the all-time performances on that stage, along with Russ in G7 of 62 and Magic in G6 of 81.

I do think coming into the NBA without a 3pt shot (meaning there were always two bigs in the paint, preventing the drive), and playing with black holes on those Sixers teams made life hell for him in what should've been his peak seasons (though he had that knee brace as well). Regardless, he still showed up in the playoffs, dominating on the big stage.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I have Oscar in the discussion for GOAT offensive peak.

The thing about Doc is, I actually think he contributed a good deal of his value on the defensive end. Tremendous help defender, one of the best ever perhaps.

His G6 of the 76 Finals (against Bobby Jones) has to be one of the all-time performances on that stage, along with Russ in G7 of 62 and Magic in G6 of 81.

I do think coming into the NBA without a 3pt shot (meaning there were always two bigs in the paint, preventing the drive), and playing with black holes on those Sixers teams made life hell for him in what should've been his peak seasons (though he had that knee brace as well). Regardless, he still showed up in the playoffs, dominating on the big stage.
Just looked up Doc's 76 finals...

1976 ABA Finals: 37.7 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 6.0 apg, 3.0 spg, 2.2 bpg, 59.0% FG, 78.6% FT

:eek: :bowdown:

And these Lebron kids want to put him over the great Doctor J when Lebron is the worst finals performer of a top 20 player alltime :oldlol:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Great stuff, as always.

BTW, I get crushed by the Bird fans here, but in all honesty, could you rank Bird higher (if you had a GOAT list), in terms of carrer success, with solid criteria, over these players?

MJ
Wilt
Russell
Magic
KAJ
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Kobe


Here you go:



:oldlol: :oldlol:

Bird's top5 with a top5 peak. All the explanations have been made and you've "ditched them" all the time :facepalm

You know what would be better? If you explain how Wilt is top8 and above

MJ
KAreem
Russell
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Duncan

Should be fun and almost impossible :oldlol: Most people have Bird in their top5 and Wilt out so good luck with that. (and you know it)



How about Bird, in the 1984 playoffs? Leading his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT% (how ****ing crazy is that :eek:), with some epic performances raising his regular-season level - not even "only" maintaining it -, while the majority of his teammates were considerably underperforming, playing clearly below their standards (check the stats, watch the games, read the reports), Larry just willing that team to the title, doing more of the same in the Finals, leading them over a better team (Magic with a clearly better cast, Kareem as 1a too). Would've most likely been the same in 1985 though, had he didn't have an injured hand and elbow (fck those injuries though lmao, Wilt played with a broken fingernail :bowdown:), and again in 1987 if the team was somewhat close - not even that close to the same - to their 1986 level. Crazy that he was even better in 1986 :bowdown:
Shit, 3 titles as #1, 3 MVPS (only once not top3), 8 all-nba, ridiculous stats, ridiculous peak, ridiculous play, in 8 healthy years, actually maintaining or elevating in the playoffs more often than not, all of it in the GOAT most competitive era, turning a franchise completely around.. :bowdown: Wilt can't **** with that.

I guess you don't know nothing about that (or that ignorant dude you so love to quote, wtf lol).. If that was Wilt it would've been the GOAT post-season, with Bird I guess it counts as a choke. Stay mad.

And just one example out of many, all the while, on the other hand, Wilt was choking like a mother****er more often than not, pretty much always dropping below his regular-season standards, in the playoffs :roll:


Nearly doesn't count.

Robert Allen Cherry, journalist and author of the biography Wilt: Larger than Life accused Wilt of choking, because if "Chamberlain had come up big and put up a normal 30 point scoring night", L.A. would have probably won its first championship". (in game 6 of the 1969 Finals where Chamberlain only scored 8 points.

I can also quote some random shit.

Wilt's choking resume:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7610721#post7610721

Now that's something to be proud of :roll: , but let's compare him to LArry Legend, one of the greatest clutch performers and more often than not raised/maintained his level in the post-season.


1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In the Game 5, Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7, Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in game 2. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Divisional Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Divisional Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-68 (41.2%)

1965 Divisional Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1962 Divisional Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

[fpliii]

Just looked up Doc's 76 finals...

1976 ABA Finals: 37.7 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 6.0 apg, 3.0 spg, 2.2 bpg, 59.0% FG, 78.6% FT

:eek: :bowdown:

And these Lebron kids want to put him over the great Doctor J when Lebron is the worst finals performer of a top 20 player alltime :oldlol:
http://noblecountygold.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/9-julius-erving-nba-style-gq1.jpg

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://noblecountygold.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/9-julius-erving-nba-style-gq1.jpg
Mah niggah

[Pointguard]

There's also the story about the World Invitational Tournament, but this video does it better justice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjYuKvJS55E
Bird said what I've been saying the whole post. "Something about Magic made you want to rebound and make the extra pass." He was infectious and could feature players unlike any other player. Stockton and Isiah were great point guard but on those Olympic teams and all star teams you could see a drop off when they played. Magic was one of the few players that could make others around him better. Kareem was talking retirement before Magic joined the team. He stayed beyond his welcome a full 9 years later.

Scott and Worthy barely looked good and looked like they wanted to retire when Magic left. Worthy's shooting percentage immediately went down 50% points and his game totally plummeted within a year. He had a crazy effect on players and they definitely played a more joyous and refined game with Magic. No other player in any other sport rewarded players for good discipline and had his teammates aware, excited and a key part of the team.

[Micku]

Damn, I rate Bird way higher than most. Maybe I need to rewatch some tape.

Whenever I rewatch some of Bird tapes, I realize how good he is in terms of off the ball movement and being able to get a shot off a times. I always thought he was a bit overrated as a shooter. Like MJ seemed to be a better mid range shooter than Bird. By the 92 season, all MJ did was shoot jumpers it seems Nobody could stop it because how high he jumped and how quick he was and he constantly shot 50%. I probably need to watch more tapes of Bird tho.

It would interesting somebody would check this, but I swore I saw Magic Johnson in 84 Finals to hit more jumpers than Bird in the entire series. Magic was more open due to the Celtics letting him taking it and the Celts doubling Kareem. Bird seemed to miss the a bunch of midrange shots, but made his points inside the paint from rebounds or post. Bird seemed to fall in love with the jumper when he should've took it inside more, while Magic was more selective at it.

Even in the 87 Finals, Bird was much better at scoring the paint and it seems most of his misses were anything outside the paint. But I have rewatch it again.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird said what I've been saying the whole post. "Something about Magic made you want to rebound and make the extra pass." He was infectious and could feature players unlike any other player. Stockton and Isiah were great point guard but on those Olympic teams and all star teams you could see a drop off when they played. Magic was one of the few players that could make others around him better. Kareem was talking retirement before Magic joined the team. He stayed beyond his welcome a full 9 years later.

Scott and Worthy barely looked good and looked like they wanted to retire when Magic left. Worthy's shooting percentage immediately went down 50% points and his game totally plummeted within a year. He had a crazy effect on players and they definitely played a more joyous and refined game with Magic. No other player in any other sport rewarded players for good discipline and had his teammates aware, excited and part of the team.

Again, proving you don't know shit.

Scott played just about the same immediately after Magic's retirement and Worthy injured his ankle in the 1991 playoffs then in 1992 he severely injured his knee and needed season-ending surgery, he was never the same after all of that.

Now, am I saying Magic didn't make teammates better? **** no, he was one of the very best at that, but don't take it tooo far, and don't post lies.

[LAZERUSS]

Here you go:

All already handled and clearly debunked. Thanks for trying though.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=323753&page=4

[Micku]

Bird said what I've been saying the whole post. "Something about Magic made you want to rebound and make the extra pass." He was infectious and could feature players unlike any other player. Stockton and Isiah were great point guard but on those Olympic teams and all star teams you could see a drop off when they played. Magic was one of the few players that could make others around him better. Kareem was talking retirement before Magic joined the team. He stayed beyond his welcome a full 9 years later.

Scott and Worthy barely looked good and looked like they wanted to retire when Magic left. Worthy's shooting percentage immediately went down 50% points and his game totally plummeted within a year. He had a crazy effect on players and they definitely played a more joyous and refined game with Magic. No other player in any other sport rewarded players for good discipline and had his teammates aware, excited and a key part of the team.

To be fair, didn't Worthy battle a bunch of injuries? He was already injured in 91, and then more injured in the Finals. In 92 he got injured again. He was banged up after that to perform as good. But I think Magic did give him a bunch of easy shots. Especially in the fastbreak.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Whenever I rewatch some of Bird tapes, I realize how good he is in terms of off the ball movement and being able to get a shot off a times. I always thought he was a bit overrated as a shooter. Like MJ seemed to be a better mid range shooter than Bird. By the 92 season, all MJ did was shoot jumpers it seems Nobody could stop it because how high he jumped and how quick he was and he constantly shot 50%. I probably need to watch more tapes of Bird tho.

It would interesting somebody would check this, but I swore I saw Magic Johnson in 84 Finals to hit more jumpers than Bird in the entire series. Magic was more open due to the Celtics letting him taking it and the Celts doubling Kareem. Bird seemed to miss the a bunch of midrange shots, but made his points inside the paint from rebounds or post. Bird seemed to fall in love with the jumper when he should've took it inside more, while Magic was more selective at it.

Even in the 87 Finals, Bird was much better at scoring the paint and it seems most of his misses were anything outside the paint. But I have rewatch it again.

Phila should do Bird's shotchart, I'm telling you.

If anything, imo, Bird's the GOAT overall shooter, just because he could score and bang inside, also great at post-up, doesn't mean he wasn't also an amazing shooter, that's from everywhere else and in any way (3pters too obviously).
I've watched countless of Bird's games and always seemed "easily" a 50% shooter from mid-range, playing ways and stats suggest the same more than enough.

From watching through the years, what's improved mostly over his career (regarding scoring) was his post-game and shot-selection, in his early years he settled more for long range jumpers and went inside and attacked the rim a bit less than after it, took more ill-advised 3's (of course his shooting improved and still had a pretty good shot-selection before). Always great without the ball but always managed to improve on that, just terrific to see.

What you've said about the 84 Finals is somewhat true though. Magic had and took plenty of mid-range shots, Celtics were giving him the shot since he wasn't an established reliable shooter and they had to double Kareem. And Bird was doing more damage on the inside yea, also because he was smart, that was the thing to do with Cooper on him.

[LAZERUSS]

Phila should do Bird's shotchart, I'm telling you.

If anything, imo, Bird's the GOAT overall shooter, just because he could score and bang inside, also great at post-up, doesn't mean he wasn't also an amazing shooter, that's from everywhere else and in any way (3pters too obviously).
I've watched countless of Bird's games and always seemed "easily" a 50% shooter from mid-range, playing ways and stats suggest the same more than enough.

From watching through the years, what's improved mostly over his career (regarding scoring) was his post-game and shot-selection, in his early years he settled more for long range jumpers and went inside and attacked the rim a bit less than after it, took more ill-advised 3's (of course his shooting improved and still had a pretty good shot-selection before). Always great without the ball but always managed to improve on that, just terrific to see.

And yet, overall he had a less-than-average career playoff FG%, and was way below the league norms in FG% (and especially eFG%'s) in his Finals.

GOAT shooter my a$$.

GOAT choker my son.

[SHAQisGOAT]

And yet, overall he had a less-than-average career playoff FG%, and was way below the league norms in FG% (and especially eFG%'s) in his Finals.

GOAT shooter my a$$.

GOAT choker my son.

:roll: :roll: Shit you so mad right now.

We ain't talking about Wilt here, take that to the Wilt's choking resume thread.

[Micku]

Phila should do Bird's shotchart, I'm telling you.

If anything, imo, Bird's the GOAT overall shooter, just because he could score and bang inside, also great at post-up, doesn't mean he wasn't also an amazing shooter, that's from everywhere else and in any way (3pters too obviously).
I've watched countless of Bird's games and always seemed "easily" a 50% shooter from mid-range, playing ways and stats suggest the same more than enough.

From watching through the years, what's improved mostly over his career (regarding scoring) was his post-game and shot-selection, in his early years he settled more for long range jumpers and went inside and attacked the rim a bit less than after it, took more ill-advised 3's (of course his shooting improved and still had a pretty good shot-selection before). Always great without the ball but always managed to improve on that, just terrific to see.

What you've said about the 84 Finals is somewhat true though. Magic had and took plenty of mid-range shots, Celtics were giving him the shot since he wasn't an established reliable shooter and they had to double Kareem. And Bird was doing more damage on the inside yea, also because he was smart, that was the thing to do with Cooper on him.

You're right, lol. Phila or somebody needs to do a shot chart on the 84 Finals. Magic didn't seem to miss anything jumpers while Bird missed a lot, but he did his damage inside. I'm curious in Bird percentage in that finals and in one of his seasons.

Imo, Bird in 84 was pretty awesome because how much he attacked. Him battling the boards against Kareem was amazing to watch. Basically willed the team to keep in the games. When I watched it, the Lakers were obviously the better team. They had the better 2nd and 3rd option and Kareem was right up there with Bird. They shot themselves in the foot, but Bird gave them a lot of chances for the Celtics to keep them in the game. And it's always a pleasure to watch Magic control the game. I said this before but he probably is the smartest shot taker I ever seen play. And it's amazing how he and Bird could control the pace of the game without taking a shot sometimes.

Amazing finals. One of my favorites.

/praise

Anyway, Bird in 86 was pretty unstoppable. I would imagine he wouldn't have a weakness in the shot chart. I need to watch more games of his prior to 84 tho. I stared, but didn't finish the 76ers vs Celtics series in 81. I watched a few in games of his rookie year in 80. It was amazing how skilled he was as rookie, especially off the ball and his footwork even back then.

We need a shot chart to see how good Bird was with the midrange. I know guys like Worthy and Dr. J had better FG%, but they weren't better shooters, but better finishers. Like Dr. J never develop a smooth jumper because he could just attack the basket. Bird shot a lower percentage, but he could attack the basket and shoot it in your face. Although I don't know if he is better than MJ with the midrange or not. As I said, it just seem like MJ was better imo. Bird could be better tho. Especially at his peak. We don't know the percentage tho.

Except past prime MJ in 97 and 98. He shot 49% midrange (shorten 3pt line) and 43% in 98 in the regular season. I'm curious if Bird had better numbers than that.

[Pointguard]

Whenever I rewatch some of Bird tapes, I realize how good he is in terms of off the ball movement and being able to get a shot off a times. I always thought he was a bit overrated as a shooter. Like MJ seemed to be a better mid range shooter than Bird. By the 92 season, all MJ did was shoot jumpers it seems Nobody could stop it because how high he jumped and how quick he was and he constantly shot 50%. I probably need to watch more tapes of Bird tho.

It would interesting somebody would check this, but I swore I saw Magic Johnson in 84 Finals to hit more jumpers than Bird in the entire series. Magic was more open due to the Celtics letting him taking it and the Celts doubling Kareem. Bird seemed to miss the a bunch of midrange shots, but made his points inside the paint from rebounds or post. Bird seemed to fall in love with the jumper when he should've took it inside more, while Magic was more selective at it.

Even in the 87 Finals, Bird was much better at scoring the paint and it seems most of his misses were anything outside the paint. But I have rewatch it again.

I remember certain situations but I can't recall much from '84. In general Magic had the best judgement of when to shoot, thread the needle, or make the extra pass. Most of the time Magic would rather feature other players and only take a shot as the defense allowed it. Except late in the game he would push for his shot. Magic had better judgment than any player ever. His mental game to gauge where to engage, take risk, go inside, or take the open shot was pristine. Magic knew how to dish a steady diet of all things and keep his teammates happy.

Bird had more comfortable long range than Jordan. Jordan knew his limitations and rarely seemed to go for three pointers unless very hot. Bird usually did the whole gamut of scoring but as the series would get longer he would take more jumpers. Cooper was lighter in weight but would fight like crazy to deny the entry pass in the deeper post. Bird's shot wasn't unlike any other shooter's, it is subject to good defense, pressure and fatigue. Ray Allen, Reggie Miller or Dirk's shot never stayed on course through a complete playoff run either. Bird had a superior post game than they did tho. However, like Magic perhaps, he might have been en-crouching on McHale's and Parrish's ground and decided not to go there.

[SHAQisGOAT]

You're right, lol. Phila or somebody needs to do a shot chart on the 84 Finals. Magic didn't seem to miss anything jumpers while Bird missed a lot, but he did his damage inside. I'm curious in Bird percentage in that finals and in one of his seasons.

Imo, Bird in 84 was pretty awesome because how much he attacked. Him battling the boards against Kareem was amazing to watch. Basically willed the team to keep in the games. When I watched it, the Lakers were obviously the better team. They had the better 2nd and 3rd option and Kareem was right up there with Bird. They shot themselves in the foot, but Bird gave them a lot of chances for the Celtics to keep them in the game. And it's always a pleasure to watch Magic control the game. I said this before but he probably is the smartest shot taker I ever seen play. And it's amazing how he and Bird could control the pace of the game without taking a shot sometimes.

Amazing finals. One of my favorites.

/praise

Anyway, Bird in 86 was pretty unstoppable. I would imagine he wouldn't have a weakness in the shot chart. I need to watch more games of his prior to 84 tho. I stared, but didn't finish the 76ers vs Celtics series in 81. I watched a few in games of his rookie year in 80. It was amazing how skilled he was as rookie, especially off the ball and his footwork even back then.

We need a shot chart to see how good Bird was with the midrange. I know guys like Worthy and Dr. J had better FG%, but they weren't better shooters, but better finishers. Like Dr. J never develop a smooth jumper because he could just attack the basket. Bird shot a lower percentage, but he could attack the basket and shoot it in your face. Although I don't know if he is better than MJ with the midrange or not. As I said, it just seem like MJ was better imo. Bird could be better tho. Especially at his peak. We don't know the percentage tho.

Except past prime MJ in 97 and 98. He shot 49% midrange (shorten 3pt line) and 43% in 98 in the regular season. I'm curious if Bird had better numbers than that.

Good post.

Yea I would love to see Bird's short-chart at his peak, even asked Phila about it at some point.

From watching him, at his best, most likely he was shooting 50% from mid or very very close.. plus he posted-up, banged and scored inside, even attacked the rim scoring from close but was always more of a jump-shooter, at his best he was shooting 50+% FG and 40+ 3P (both RS and PS) and he was taking like 3 3's per game, and I doubt that he was scoring over 70% at the rim. I would say something like 50% or really really close from mid, over 50% in the paint, and 60 percentile at the rim, taking more shots from mid but not that much less inside because he kept it all-around, also over 40% from 3 while taking around 3 (that's a give though).

I most definitely think that, at both their best from there, Bird was better from mid-range than Jordan.

[Pointguard]

To be fair, didn't Worthy battle a bunch of injuries? He was already injured in 91, and then more injured in the Finals. In 92 he got injured again. He was banged up after that to perform as good. But I think Magic did give him a bunch of easy shots. Especially in the fastbreak.
Yeah he was banged up some but in '92 he played more minutes per game than he ever did and shot as much as he did the year before, rebounded and block shots as good or better than the year before (rebounding and blocking shots are the best indicators of health). So when he played in '92 he was himself. After that he seemingly never got it back together.

Scott wasn't injured and was still in his prime.

[Pointguard]

We need a shot chart to see how good Bird was with the midrange. I know guys like Worthy and Dr. J had better FG%, but they weren't better shooters, but better finishers. Like Dr. J never develop a smooth jumper because he could just attack the basket. Bird shot a lower percentage, but he could attack the basket and shoot it in your face. Although I don't know if he is better than MJ with the midrange or not. As I said, it just seem like MJ was better imo. Bird could be better tho. Especially at his peak. We don't know the percentage tho.

Except past prime MJ in 97 and 98. He shot 49% midrange (shorten 3pt line) and 43% in 98 in the regular season. I'm curious if Bird had better numbers than that.

Bird was a better midrange shooter than Dr. J and Worthy without question. The both of them had great first steps and were rarely contested but still missed more than Bird did. Before the second threepeat, I felt Bird was a better midrange shooter than MJ except in fourth quarters when MJ seemed never to miss if he was playing your team. In the last three peat Jordan's midrange was one of the best ever. It seemed more dependable than Shaq's deep post game if it was a close game.

[Micku]

I remember certain situations but I can't recall much from '84. In general Magic had the best judgement of when to shoot, thread the needle, or make the extra pass. Most of the time Magic would rather feature other players and only take a shot as the defense allowed it. Except late in the game he would push for his shot. Magic had better judgment than any player ever. His mental game to gauge where to engage, take risk, go inside, or take the open shot was pristine. Magic knew how to dish a steady diet of all things and keep his teammates happy.

Bird had more comfortable long range than Jordan. Jordan knew his limitations and rarely seemed to go for three pointers unless very hot. Bird usually did the whole gamut of scoring but as the series would get longer he would take more jumpers. Cooper was lighter in weight but would fight like crazy to deny the entry pass in the deeper post. Bird's shot wasn't unlike any other shooter's, it is subject to good defense, pressure and fatigue. Ray Allen, Reggie Miller or Dirk's shot never stayed on course through a complete playoff run either. Bird had a superior post game than they did tho. However, like Magic perhaps, he might have been en-crouching on McHale's and Parrish's ground and decided not to go there.

Yeah. I agree with you with Magic. Whenever I watched him, I was amazed in how much control he would have in the game. Like when to pass, when to drive, when to shoot (one of the best shot selection player I've seen).

And I would love to see a shot chart with peak Bird. MJ did seem to know his limits, and perfected his skills with his shot selection. When I first saw a few tapes of his play in the early 90s, I was amazed at how many jumpers he would take because I always thought of him as driver first. In 92 it seemed almost all of his shots were mid range jumpers and he shot 50%.

And it's interesting that you said that MJ secondpeat midrange was one of the best ever, because I thought he was a bit better during the first threepeat. But that's just the eye test, so I might be wrong at it.

From what I watched of Bird, he had more range definitely. And in 86 he was threat everywhere on the floor and had great offensive versatility. Catch and shoot, post up, and could drive. But all of this talk makes me want a shot chart even more to compare. I'm interested to see how good was Bird as a finisher as well. Like SHAQisGOAT said, I would say the percentage would be about 50% from the paint and 60% of the rim. I don't know about midrange. Could be close to or around 50% there too at his peak.

[Pointguard]

And I would love to see a shot chart with peak Bird. MJ did seem to know his limits, and perfected his skills with his shot selection. When I first saw a few tapes of his play in the early 90s, I was amazed at how many jumpers he would take because I always thought of him as driver first. In 92 it seemed almost all of his shots were mid range jumpers and he shot 50%.

And it's interesting that you said that MJ secondpeat midrange was one of the best ever, because I thought he was a bit better during the first threepeat. But that's just the eye test, so I might be wrong at it.

From what I watched of Bird, he had more range definitely. And in 86 he was threat everywhere on the floor and had great offensive versatility. Catch and shoot, post up, and could drive. But all of this talk makes me want a shot chart even more to compare. I'm interested to see how good was Bird as a finisher as well. Like SHAQisGOAT said, I would say the percentage would be about 50% from the paint and 60% of the rim. I don't know about midrange. Could be close to or around 50% there too at his peak.

Well the Knicks and Detroit were bombing on Jordan when he drove so while he did buff up, he also knew he couldn't keep going down the middle. So in '92 he did take a lot of jumpers. But he was driving like crazy the first couple of years. I never seen a player since do as many reverse lay ups as Jordan did the first three or four years. People don't know the energy it takes to drive all year long (AI was the only guy like Jordan, and Derrick Rose is the only one in this generation to exhibit something close to them). Jordan wasn't super comfortable with jumpers during the first ring. But he came back with confidence the second year but still drove a lot in pressure situations. By 92 he was taking a lot of jumpers. But Jordan was super efficient for the second threepeat and took the path of least resistance.

[havoc33]

Well the Knicks and Detroit were bombing on Jordan when he drove so while he did buff up, he also knew he couldn't keep going down the middle. So in '92 he did take a lot of jumpers. But he was driving like crazy the first couple of years. I never seen a player since do as many reverse lay ups as Jordan did the first three or four years. People don't know the energy it takes to drive all year long (AI was the only guy like Jordan, and Derrick Rose is the only one in this generation to exhibit something close to them). Jordan wasn't super comfortable with jumpers during the first ring. But he came back with confidence the second year but still drove a lot in pressure situations. By 92 he was taking a lot of jumpers. But Jordan was super efficient for the second threepeat and took the path of least resistance.
It's a myth that MJ wasn't a good shooter early on. Sure, he hadn't perfected his fadeaway, but his midrange game was already sublime by the 89-90 season. In his first threepeat you basically have MJ at the total peak of his powers. He was great during the second threepeat as well, but you could see that he had lost some explosiveness, and his fadeaway jumper was a natural counter to that. But he wasn't as effective anymore, which is clearly evident if you compare his playoffs stats from 91-93 to 96-98. The first threepeat MJ edges second threepeat MJ in every possible way.

[havoc33]

I have said it before, but I will reiterate it now, you simply can't look at Magic's scoring, and hold it against him. He was certainly capable of 30+ point games anytime he wanted them. Again, he had the TWO highest scoring games in the Bird-Magic H2H.

How about this: You already are aware of Magic, in his ROOKIE season, putting up that incredible clinching game six in the Finals (42 pts, 15 rebs, 7 ast, 14-23 from the floor, and 14-14 from the line.) Again, in his ROOKIE season. In his LAST season, in 90-91, and in theseries clinching first round game against Hakeem's Rockets, he hung a 38 point, 6 reb, 7 ast, 14-20 FG/FGA, 9-9 FT/FTA game.

It was EVERYTHING that Magic brought to the table that set him apart. And I mean everything. He made his teammates much more efficient. He kept them happy. He made players like Byron Scott into 20 ppg scorers. Hell, he took Michael Cooper, and made him into one of the best three point shooters of his era. And KAJ was certainly a huge beneficiary. He had staggering FG%'s in the 80's. And, then look at Magic's teammates after he retired.

He could dominate games even without scoring in double figures. He forced the pace in his career. He made teammates better. He was super clutch. He was highly efficient. His IMPACT went FAR beyond just scoring. But again, he could have scored MUCH more in his career, had he been tasked to do so.To say that Magic was super clutch is certainly stretching it, since his failures come Playoff time in the mid 80s are pretty well documented. And I have a very hard time believing that Magic could score 30 points at will. He simply didn't have that type of scoring capacity on a consistent basis. Bird was the better player of the two until 86-87 when you could say that Magic finally eclipsed him.

[pudman13]

Why do people say Bird was better than Magic?

Because they saw them both play.

[houston]

great thread

[Pointguard]

I have said it before, but I will reiterate it now, you simply can't look at Magic's scoring, and hold it against him. He was certainly capable of 30+ point games anytime he wanted them. Again, he had the TWO highest scoring games in the Bird-Magic H2H.

How about this: You already are aware of Magic, in his ROOKIE season, putting up that incredible clinching game six in the Finals (42 pts, 15 rebs, 7 ast, 14-23 from the floor, and 14-14 from the line.) Again, in his ROOKIE season. In his LAST season, in 90-91, and in theseries clinching first round game against Hakeem's Rockets, he hung a 38 point, 6 reb, 7 ast, 14-20 FG/FGA, 9-9 FT/FTA game.

It was EVERYTHING that Magic brought to the table that set him apart. And I mean everything. He made his teammates much more efficient. He kept them happy. He made players like Byron Scott into 20 ppg scorers. Hell, he took Michael Cooper, and made him into one of the best three point shooters of his era. And KAJ was certainly a huge beneficiary. He had staggering FG%'s in the 80's. And, then look at Magic's teammates after he retired.

He could dominate games even without scoring in double figures. He forced the pace in his career. He made teammates better. He was super clutch. He was highly efficient. His IMPACT went FAR beyond just scoring. But again, he could have scored MUCH more in his career, had he been tasked to do so.
Solid post as usual.

Magic was the best at dominating a game without scoring. Magic could have scored at least 8 more points per game on fast breaks alone but he felt the need to get others involved unlike any other player. And another 4 ppg if he didn't feature other players. Magic could back anybody down but he deferred to Kareem. Magic was either too big or too quick for every body.

Jason Kidd was another that could dominate without stats and he was phenomenal with it. Kidd took a last place team 26 wins, replaced the most prolific point guard (24ppg and 8 assist) in the league, and took that exact same team to the finals two years in a row. Kidd only averaged 15ppg and 10 assist and 7.3 rebounds. Nobody on the team averaged 16ppg or got 8 rebounds per game or made the all defensive team outside of Kidd. This is why you can't do the points mean everything argument on guys that have control of the game.


Magic could morph into all types of positions. When Rodman was offensive rebounding like crazy on the Lakers Magic said let me me get him. And Rodman was controlled. When Kareem's 34 ppg was missing Magic added 8 more points to it and rebounded like crazy. Worthy couldn't play, Magic took up post scoring and fast break load. 16 assist 12 rebounds 8 points dominant game. 12 assist 10 rebounds 8 points dominant game. Lakers as a franchise were not winners, Magic converted minuses into pluses all the time. Could turn nothing into something all the time. He was very different and more intriguing to watch than even Jordan.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

magic was better than bird but it is really close:coleman:

[swagga]

dis rite here is chukbe vs lehype at its origins.

add a young gun on da rise to make it bird/magic/mj kobe/lebron/durant

Same arguments wit peak/longevity/teamates/swag/stats/not yet ready/ first or last years don't count/injuries and the occasional would drop 50 each game/20000 hoes/the mountain lion :lol


End of the day nigs in the middle is best tbh. Play 5 positions => versatility, many times not used properly by COACH, which all here seem to forget to discuss.

[swagga]

And tbh Cap beats em all. Elite in 3 decades(69 to 89, almost got the 90s), skyhook, stats, peak,defense, mental strength, etc.

Also civilized while not being a media queer, no bastard children/man booty/gambling/rape/decision/f4ggot and any other nigdom afflictions.

If rite now you know how each player plays out and you have a draft wit all of em you go Cap first and that's the definition of the GOAT.

[dankok8]

I'm not arguing that Magic > Bird for their careers having a 3-year longer prime and all. Bird after his back injuries in '88 was a shell and Magic was way better from that period onwards. Still the gap is small between them. Like I said all neutral fans from the era would either refuse to rank them or put them side by side on their list.

But from '80 to '86 I still haven't heard any legit argument for Magic > Bird except "Magic could have scored more if he were so inclined...". How do you know Bird couldn't as well? I mean didn't McHale in particular hold him back?

PLEASE LAZERUSS POST SOME SI LINKS THAT PROVE BIRD > MAGIC BEFORE 86-87! I'm willing to take a softer stance in the face of proof but everything I know about the era points in the other direction.

Career 40-point games:

Magic: 6 in RS, 4 in PS
Bird: 42 in RS, 5 in PS

Career 50-point games:

Magic: 0
Bird: 3 (all in RS)

I still can't believe I'm defending Bird against Magic... that's a first but man people are really ripping on Larry here. He was easily a better scorer than Magic and honestly it's laughable to claim otherwise. :lol

[dankok8]

And let's debunk this abomination of a myth that Bird was a choker. Larry is the foremost clutch player in the history of the game along with Jordan and West. But I won't really talk about his game-winning shots and huge plays in dying seconds ("That's a steal by Bird!") but we'll look at some larger sample sizes.

Bird in decisive Game 7's and Game 5's:

27.9 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 6.6 apg on 50.3 %FG/59.5 %TS and ~2.5 topg

If we exclude his lone game in the '92 playoffs when he was a complete shell we get a staggering 29.7 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.9 apg on on 49.5 %FG/59.3 %TS.

Larry's teams also went 7-3 in those games.

For comparison Magic averaged 20.5 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 14.0 apg on 60.4 %FG/63.2 %TS and 4.5 topg in his Game 7's.


Now in all elimination games:

Bird: 23.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 6.0 apg on 43.9 %FG/51.6 %TS and ~2.6 topg
Magic: 21.0 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 12.1 apg on 46.7 %FG/56.1 %TS and ~4.9 topg

Bird's Celtics were 14-9 facing elimination and Magic's Lakers 4-7.

Again no clear edge for Magic. Even his raw numbers were not any more impressive than Bird's in all honesty.

[Pointguard]

And let's debunk this abomination of a myth that Bird was a choker. Larry is the foremost clutch player in the history of the game along with Jordan and West. But I won't really talk about his game-winning shots and huge plays in dying seconds ("That's a steal by Bird!") but we'll look at some larger sample sizes.

Bird in decisive Game 7's and Game 5's:

27.9 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 6.6 apg on 50.3 %FG/59.5 %TS and ~2.5 topg

If we exclude his lone game in the '92 playoffs when he was a complete shell we get a staggering 29.7 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.9 apg on on 49.5 %FG/59.3 %TS.

Larry's teams also went 7-3 in those games.

For comparison Magic averaged 20.5 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 14.0 apg on 60.4 %FG/63.2 %TS and 4.5 topg in his Game 7's.


Now in all elimination games:

Bird: 23.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 6.0 apg on 43.9 %FG/51.6 %TS and ~2.6 topg
Magic: 21.0 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 12.1 apg on 46.7 %FG/56.1 %TS and ~4.9 topg

Bird's Celtics were 14-9 facing elimination and Magic's Lakers 4-7.

Again no clear edge for Magic. Even his raw numbers were not any more impressive than Bird's in all honesty.

There is not much difference there. I think Bird was clutch for the record.

If Magic featured himself, and wasn't so giving... I doubt this would be close. Its much harder squeezing his points in, because when Magic was hot he still kept giving the ball to Kareem, Worthy, Scott and Cooper. Whereas Bird was the feature. Magic had more control than any player ever and his effect is harder to measure.

[LAZERUSS]

Some interesting numbers that I posted in another topic, but they certainly apply here:


Maybe there is something with my math, but here are the numbers I come up with for their regular seasons:

Bird: 660-237 .736
Magic: 670-236 .740

I'll let the smarter guys here either confirm, or reject...


Marchesk:


Might want to qualify that with regular season. Post season is a different story. Magic sits at 74% compared to Bird's 60.4%.

And how about this for the KAJ backers:


During their 10 regular seasons in the league together, ...

Kareem went 61-40 without Magic, or a .604 winning percentage.
Magic went 24-8 without Kareem, or a .750 winning perentage.

Of course, the Lakers went 1-0 without KAJ in those post-seasons (a title-clinching win BTW), while KAJ went 0-2 without Magic (in a sweeping loss.) And actually you could make the argument that it was 0-3 in that series (since Magic went down with an injury in a tie game.)

So, their TOTAL records, without the other stands at :

KAJ with a 61-43 record (.587)
Magic with a 25-8 record (.758)

And how about these numbers?

When you combine Magic's 24-8 record without KAJ in those 10 regular seasons, with his three other seasons withOUT Kareem, 62-17, 57-22, and 22-10 (in 95-96 mind you) you get a combined W-L record of 165-57, or a .743 winning percentage. Which, BTW, was better than his overall career winning percentage of .740.

And the reality was, his Lakers would have CLEARLY won a title in '87-88 withOUT Kareem. Kareem was simply putrid in that post-season, was even more awful in the Finals, and was an absolute embarrassment in game seven of those Finals.

Furthermore, I contend that LA was so much better than the rest of the NBA in 86-87, that had they simply replaced Kareem with more minutes for Mychael Thompson and AC Green, that they would STILL have won a title in that season. They just shelled Boston in the Finals, and overall, went 15-3 in the post-season, and outscored their opponents by a +11.4 ppg differential. Kareem was nothing more than a role player in that post-season.

In closing...

Magic took over a STACKED roster in his rookie season, but it was a roster that badly had under-achieved, and had absolutely no leadership (least of all by Kareem, the loner.) He immediately led them to a 60-22 record, and a world title, and deserved his FMVP. He would go on to LEAD the Lakers to a total of NINE Finals, and FIVE rings.

And again, after KAJ retired, they IMPROVED from a 57-25 team, to a 63-19 team. And the next season (Magic's LAST full-time season), he took a injury-riddled, and rapidly declining roster to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals.

How did the Lakers do after Magic retired? They went 43-39, and then 39-43.

Hell, he came back FIVE years later, at age 36, overweight, rusty, and AIDs-ridden, and again led LA to a better record with him, 22-10 (.688), than without him, 31-19 (.620.)

A case could be made that Magic was the greatest "winner" in the history of the NBA.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

And how about Larry's teammates in the post-season?


Now, how about this (and I am only posting Boston's total eFG% in those post-seasons, instead of taking the time to break down Bird's eFG% and his teammates, but clearly, the difference would have been even more dramatic had I done so)

Playoff eFG%'s...

79-80:
Bird: .480
Boston: .487
League: .476

80-81:
Bird: .474
Boston: .484
League: .473

81-82:
Bird: .430
Boston: .465
League: .476

82-83:
Bird: .427
Boston: .442
League: .484

83-84:
Bird: .532
Boston: .478
League: .487

84-85:
Bird: .469
Boston: .491
League: .497

85-86:
Bird: .551
Boston: .521
League: .497

86-87:
Bird: .491
Boston: .517
League: .495

87-88:
Bird: .467
Boston: .491
League: .488

89-90:
Bird: .470
Boston: .558
League: .490

90-91:
Bird: .418
Boston: .501
League: .492

91-92:
Bird: .500
Boston: .502
League: .492


And just to quiet the Wilt-bashers here:


Now the next set of numbers are Wilt's playoff eFG%'s, his teammates (collectively and without Wilt), and the post-season league averages.

59-60:
Wilt: .496
Team: .380
League: .402

60-61:
Wilt: .469
Team: .332
League: .403

61-62:
Wilt: .467
Team: .354
League: .411

63-64:
Wilt: .543
Team: .383
League: .420

64-65:
Wilt: .530
Team: .413
League: .429

65-66:
Wilt: .509
Team: .352
League: .440

66-67:
Wilt: .579
Team: .428
League: .424

67-68:
Wilt: .534
Team: .416
League: .446

68-69:
Wilt: .545
Team: .421
League: .431

69-70:
Wilt: .549
Team: .469
League: .455

70-71:
Wilt: .455
Team: .446
League: .445

71-72:
Wilt: .563
Team: .414
League: .439

72-73:
Wilt: .552
Team: .446
League: .451

[LAZERUSS]

And let's debunk this abomination of a myth that Bird was a choker. Larry is the foremost clutch player in the history of the game along with Jordan and West. But I won't really talk about his game-winning shots and huge plays in dying seconds ("That's a steal by Bird!") but we'll look at some larger sample sizes.

Bird in decisive Game 7's and Game 5's:

27.9 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 6.6 apg on 50.3 %FG/59.5 %TS and ~2.5 topg

If we exclude his lone game in the '92 playoffs when he was a complete shell we get a staggering 29.7 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.9 apg on on 49.5 %FG/59.3 %TS.

Hmmm...Wilt in his 11 "at-the-limit" games:

29.9 ppg, 27.3 rpg, 3.9 apg, .581 eFG%, and a .550 TS% (actually, it is probably closer to .560, since I used a TRUE TS%, which is 2pts for every FGA, and 1 pt for every FTA, instead of the goofy .44 crap that TS% actually uses.) Oh, and Chamberlain probably was blocking 8 shots per game, AND, he just crushed his opposing centers in those 11 games, by a staggering margins in EVERY category listed.

And keep in mind that in Bird's 12 playoff seasons, the NBA averaged an eFG% of about .490. In Wilt's 13 post-seasons, the NBA averaged an eFG% of about .435.

So, even with his relatively poor FT shooting, Chamberlain's post-season TS%, compared to the league average, was probably higher than Bird's against league average.

So, NO, Bird was NOT the most clutch playoff performer of all-time.

[Pointguard]

Some interesting numbers that I posted in another topic, but they certainly apply here:

During their 10 regular seasons in the league together, ...

Kareem went 61-40 without Magic, or a .604 winning percentage.
Magic went 24-8 without Kareem, or a .750 winning perentage.

Of course, the Lakers went 1-0 without KAJ in those post-seasons (a title-clinching win BTW), while KAJ went 0-2 without Magic (in a sweeping loss.) And actually you could make the argument that it was 0-3 in that series (since Magic went down with an injury in a tie game.)

And how about these numbers?

When you combine Magic's 24-8 record without KAJ in those 10 regular seasons, with his three other seasons withOUT Kareem, 62-17, 57-22, and 22-10 (in 95-96 mind you) you get a combined W-L record of 165-57, or a .743 winning percentage. Which, BTW, was better than his overall career winning percentage of .740.

And the reality was, his Lakers would have CLEARLY won a title in '87-88 withOUT Kareem. Kareem was simply putrid in that post-season, was even more awful in the Finals, and was an absolute embarrassment in game seven of those Finals.

Furthermore, I contend that LA was so much better than the rest of the NBA in 86-87, that had they simply replaced Kareem with more minutes for Mychael Thompson and AC Green, that they would STILL have won a title in that season. They just shelled Boston in the Finals, and overall, went 15-3 in the post-season, and outscored their opponents by a +11.4 ppg differential. Kareem was nothing more than a role player in that post-season.

In closing...

Magic took over a STACKED roster in his rookie season, but it was a roster that badly had under-achieved, and had absolutely no leadership (least of all by Kareem, the loner.) He immediately led them to a 60-22 record, and a world title, and deserved his FMVP. He would go on to LEAD the Lakers to a total of NINE Finals, and FIVE rings.

And again, after KAJ retired, they IMPROVED from a 57-25 team, to a 63-19 team. And the next season (Magic's LAST full-time season), he took a injury-riddled, and rapidly declining roster to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals.

How did the Lakers do after Magic retired? They went 43-39, and then 39-43.

Hell, he came back FIVE years later, at age 36, overweight, rusty, and AIDs-ridden, and again led LA to a better record with him, 22-10 (.688), than without him, 31-19 (.620.)

A case could be made that Magic was the greatest "winner" in the history of the NBA.

Continued...
Wow, good stuff. Curious as to what the naysayers will say.

[LAZERUSS]

Wow, good stuff. Curious as to what the naysayers will say.

Probably the same old argument... "well, I watched Bird play, and he was better." Or, "well Bird was injury-riddled in his last three seasons." But, of course, they will ignore the fact that Bird was 23 when he came into the NBA, while Magic was only 20.

Nothing concrete, of course.

[KevinNYC]

'81...Bird, even with a horrid Finals

Bird's 81 finals were not horrid. His points, rebounds and assists averages are unequaled in the Finals to this day.

Bird was fantastic in the ECF finals against Dr. J's Sixers.

There's one person who can claim to have a better playoffs run in 1981 than Larry Bird. His name is Moses Malone.

[LAZERUSS]

Bird's 81 finals were not horrid. His points, rebounds and assists averages are unequaled in the Finals to this day.

Bird was fantastic in the ECF finals against Dr. J's Sixers.

There's one person who can claim to have a better playoffs run in 1981 than Larry Bird. His name is Moses Malone.

Ok, then let's clear up this RIDICULOUS "Tragic" Johnson series nonsense while we are at it.

His '84 Finals...

18.1 ppg, LED the Lakers in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, handed out 13.6 apg, and shot .560 from the field (Bird was at .484 and KAJ was at .481 BTW.)

"Tragic"...:roll: :roll: :roll:

[dankok8]

There is not much difference there. I think Bird was clutch for the record.

If Magic featured himself, and wasn't so giving... I doubt this would be close. Its much harder squeezing his points in, because when Magic was hot he still kept giving the ball to Kareem, Worthy, Scott and Cooper. Whereas Bird was the feature. Magic had more control than any player ever and his effect is harder to measure.

Come on man it's not like Bird was often going all out trying to score either. Heck he was playing the 85-86 season shooting jumpers left-handed and stuff just because he wanted a challenge. Magic could have averaged 22-24 ppg consistently but Bird could have eclipsed 30+ ppg quite easily.




During their 10 regular seasons in the league together, ...

Kareem went 61-40 without Magic, or a .604 winning percentage.
Magic went 24-8 without Kareem, or a .750 winning perentage.

Of course, the Lakers went 1-0 without KAJ in those post-seasons (a title-clinching win BTW), while KAJ went 0-2 without Magic (in a sweeping loss.) And actually you could make the argument that it was 0-3 in that series (since Magic went down with an injury in a tie game.)

So, their TOTAL records, without the other stands at :

KAJ with a 61-43 record (.587)
Magic with a 25-8 record (.758)

And how about these numbers?

When you combine Magic's 24-8 record without KAJ in those 10 regular seasons, with his three other seasons withOUT Kareem, 62-17, 57-22, and 22-10 (in 95-96 mind you) you get a combined W-L record of 165-57, or a .743 winning percentage. Which, BTW, was better than his overall career winning percentage of .740.

And the reality was, his Lakers would have CLEARLY won a title in '87-88 withOUT Kareem. Kareem was simply putrid in that post-season, was even more awful in the Finals, and was an absolute embarrassment in game seven of those Finals.

Furthermore, I contend that LA was so much better than the rest of the NBA in 86-87, that had they simply replaced Kareem with more minutes for Mychael Thompson and AC Green, that they would STILL have won a title in that season. They just shelled Boston in the Finals, and overall, went 15-3 in the post-season, and outscored their opponents by a +11.4 ppg differential. Kareem was nothing more than a role player in that post-season.

In closing...

Magic took over a STACKED roster in his rookie season, but it was a roster that badly had under-achieved, and had absolutely no leadership (least of all by Kareem, the loner.) He immediately led them to a 60-22 record, and a world title, and deserved his FMVP. He would go on to LEAD the Lakers to a total of NINE Finals, and FIVE rings.

And again, after KAJ retired, they IMPROVED from a 57-25 team, to a 63-19 team. And the next season (Magic's LAST full-time season), he took a injury-riddled, and rapidly declining roster to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals.

How did the Lakers do after Magic retired? They went 43-39, and then 39-43.

Hell, he came back FIVE years later, at age 36, overweight, rusty, and AIDs-ridden, and again led LA to a better record with him, 22-10 (.688), than without him, 31-19 (.620.)

A case could be made that Magic was the greatest "winner" in the history of the NBA.


How terribly useless is this post. You mean to tell me the Lakers didn't get any worse when a 42 year old Kareem retired? Yea man peak Magic was way better than 40+ year old Kareem. Fascinating... tell me more! :hammerhead:

Again Game 6 in 1980... WAS ONE GAME!! You won't find anyone who knows a god damn thing about the NBA in that season saying rookie Magic was as good as Kareem.



Bird's 81 finals were not horrid. His points, rebounds and assists averages are unequaled in the Finals to this day.

Bird was fantastic in the ECF finals against Dr. J's Sixers.

There's one person who can claim to have a better playoffs run in 1981 than Larry Bird. His name is Moses Malone.

Finally a voice of reason!

Dude I'm a big-time Magic fan and I have to defend Bird (and Kareem) in this thread. This is how ridiculous this is. He is calling Bird a choker! Larry freaking Bird... And he's trying to discredit Kareem by saying that at 41 and 42 years old in his last 2 seasons he wasn't that good. SMH

[dankok8]

Ok, then let's clear up this RIDICULOUS "Tragic" Johnson series nonsense while we are at it.

His '84 Finals...

18.1 ppg, LED the Lakers in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, handed out 13.6 apg, and shot .560 from the field (Bird was at .484 and KAJ was at .481 BTW.)

"Tragic"...:roll: :roll: :roll:

John Stockton averaged around 18/14 on 50% shooting over 5 years in the postseason while playing very good defense. Was Stockton ever as good as prime Magic?

Stats without context are meaningless.

[KevinNYC]

Ok, then let's clear up this RIDICULOUS "Tragic" Johnson series nonsense while we are at it.

Fine by me. You'll notice I don't make that argument. In fact, I don't even I don't even offer an opinion in these threads. There's a lot of mythology passing for argument build up 80's basketball, like the Celtics weren't a running team, the Celtics were blue collar, etc, etc.

[KevinNYC]

In 88-89, Bird's back gives out and he's never the same player again.

It was not a back injury that caused Bird to miss this season

[Pointguard]

Bird's 81 finals were not horrid. His points, rebounds and assists averages are unequaled in the Finals to this day.

15/15/7 huh??? Its late but I know that's wrong? Wilt 18/28/8? Jordan 41/8/6 Duncan 24/17/5 Shaq 33/16/5 Magic 26/8/13 Lebron 28/10/7 and I know they all had much better shooting percentages. Are you saying with a bare minimum of 7 assist?

It was definitely a major let down in the finals to have Cedric Maxwell be the man. I just don't see Cedric Maxwell winning it that in any other year. He sucked.

[LAZERUSS]

Come on man it's not like Bird was often going all out trying to score either. Heck he was playing the 85-86 season shooting jumpers left-handed and stuff just because he wanted a challenge. Magic could have averaged 22-24 ppg consistently but Bird could have eclipsed 30+ ppg quite easily.



How terribly useless is this post. You mean to tell me the Lakers didn't get any worse when a 42 year old Kareem retired? Yea man peak Magic was way better than 40+ year old Kareem. Fascinating... tell me more! :hammerhead:

Again Game 6 in 1980... WAS ONE GAME!! You won't find anyone who knows a god damn thing about the NBA in that season saying rookie Magic was as good as Kareem.




Finally a voice of reason!

Dude I'm a big-time Magic fan and I have to defend Bird (and Kareem) in this thread. This is how ridiculous this is. He is calling Bird a choker! Larry freaking Bird... And he's trying to discredit Kareem by saying that at 41 and 42 years old in his last 2 seasons he wasn't that good. SMH

WE already KNOW that Magic was capable of scoring FAR more. 22-24 is absolutely pure S**t. He was handing out 12-13 apg and scoring 24 ppg for cryingoutloud (and had a Finals of 26 ppg on .541 FG% and .960 FT% while handing out 13 assists per game.) 30 ppg would have been a reasonable estimation had Magic shot-jacked as much as Bird did in his career.

And, by 1982, MAGIC was EASILY considered better than Kareem. In fact, in a span of six games, went 6-0 without Kareem, and when he returned to the starting lineup, they lost by 20 points. There was a question, THEN, about just how needed KAJ was.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1125158/index.htm

And Magic was FAR better in that post-season (and much better than your boy Bird, BTW, too), and easily won FMVP #2. And let's get real here about '82. The ONLY reason that Magic didn't get much pub in the MVP race, was because HE was blamed for the firing of Westhead. He was an eyelash away from a TRIPLE-DOUBLE season AND post-season...all while SHARING the PG position.

After KAJ's 80-81 season, it was ALL Magic. And again, anyone that actually followed basketball back then, would tell you that KAJ was NEVER a leader. He was a loner who offended his own teammates. His ONE title before Magic came at his absolute peak, and with OSCAR running the show. After Oscar retired, he was putting up useless and often under-achieving stats. He was CAPABLE of so much more, but he lacked motivation and drive. He couldn't carry LOADED rosters past far inferior rosters (and yet Rick Barry could.)


And please, get off of this "I am a Magic fan" crap. As well as defending KAJ. I have ripped your completely exaggerated takes on KAJ and Wilt to SHREDS here. A PEAK KAJ was never remotely as dominant as a prime Chamberlain. And please, give me the FACTS that prove that KAJ was at his PEAK in '76-77. Not one poster has come up with the reasons why a 70-72 KAJ could score more, shoot better against league average, rebound better (and before you use 76-77, give me the list of rebounders in the league...they were awful.) A young KAJ played much better defense, was far more UNSTOPPABLE, anchored the best defensive team in the league, was a better passer, more efficient, and was a much bigger WINNER. The rest of his career was slow decline.


BTW, here were the "clutch" Bird's averages in his five Finals:

23.1 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 6.0 apg, .457 FG%, .431 3pt%, .887 FT%, .473 eFG%, and a .534 TS%.

And keep in mind that the post-season league eFG% average was .490 in that span.

In his 31 Finals games, he had as many games in which he shot under .399 (including two in which he shot under .299...and a game seven of .333), ELEVEN, as he did in which he shot over .500.

And again, his teammates were collectively shooting better than he was.

Larry the Legend.

[LAZERUSS]

How terribly useless is this post. You mean to tell me the Lakers didn't get any worse when a 42 year old Kareem retired? Yea man peak Magic was way better than 40+ year old Kareem. Fascinating... tell me more

Magic's W-L record, withOUT Kareem, and during their 10 years in the league together, was 25-8 (.758), while KAJ's was 61-43 (.587) without Magic in that span. And again, that 25-8 record came in varying stages of their 10 seasons together, including a 6-0 mark in '82.

THEN, after KAJ retired, did Magic's Lakers suddenly collapse. Hell no, they IMPROVED. His two teams immediately after Kareem retired, went 63-19 and 58-24.

So, collectively, Magic went 25-8, 63-19, and 58-24 withOUT Kareem...or a 146-51 W-L record (.741.)

As the above clearly shows, Magic certainly didn't need Kareem nearly as much as KAJ needed Magic. No question about it, Magic had a far greater impact on the 80's Lakers than KAJ did.

[SHAQisGOAT]

And this dude goes on with ludicrous posts. Ban pls.

[havoc33]

Dude I'm a big-time Magic fan and I have to defend Bird (and Kareem) in this thread. This is how ridiculous this is. He is calling Bird a choker! Larry freaking Bird... And he's trying to discredit Kareem by saying that at 41 and 42 years old in his last 2 seasons he wasn't that good. SMH

Totally agree, it's laughable really. Classic case of insecurity. He's convinced if he screams long and loud enough, and at the same time talks smack about the opposition, that people will find his opinion more credible. But they won't of course. Bird was the best of the two until 86-87, and no revisionist history can ever change that. I still have Magic slightly ahead of Bird alltime, but it's close.

[Pointguard]

Come on man it's not like Bird was often going all out trying to score either. Heck he was playing the 85-86 season shooting jumpers left-handed and stuff just because he wanted a challenge. Magic could have averaged 22-24 ppg consistently but Bird could have eclipsed 30+ ppg
Huh, Bird was the feature while Magic featured others. Magic from year one was capable of playing all positions, fill in for Kareem and get 42/15/7 to close out the championship against a great defensive team. He featured Kareem in the half court and Coop/Worthy/Green/Scott on the break which were easy baskets that would have put even more distance on his his stellar FG%. They ran at least 15 times a game on (Magics steals and rebounds were close to double digits alone). Magic was a mismatch for any defender in the half court.

Bird shot on average six or seven shots more per game than Magic post seasn and RS. Yet Bird in your clutch shooting examples is only one made basket above Magic. And when Magic is hot he's still a distributor and would have definitely scored more if he wasn't trying to keep everybody happy. Gives Magic six more shots per game and there is no discussion here.

[CelticBaller]

The stats prove that bird is better

[jlip]

PLEASE LAZERUSS POST SOME SI LINKS THAT PROVE BIRD > MAGIC BEFORE 86-87! I'm willing to take a softer stance in the face of proof but everything I know about the era points in the other direction.


@ dankok8
I think you meant, links that prove Magic> Bird before '87?

Anyways...

I have no personal agenda here as a lifelong Magic fan who feels that his overall ranking is higher than Bird's, but I would like to see a response to your request in bold. Not particularly from Laz, but anyone. In my 80's Bird GOAT conversation thread, (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241244), there were several declarations between '84 and '88 that Bird may have been the GOAT. Admittedly I haven't look as diligently, but I haven't found the same reports for Magic prior to 1987.

[CelticBaller]

And this dude goes on with ludicrous posts. Ban pls.
I remember when jlauber used to post cool and interesting facts from the past, sadly this is what he has become.

[Pointguard]

Bird was the best of the two until 86-87, and no revisionist history can ever change that. I still have Magic slightly ahead of Bird alltime, but it's close.
Best example I can give you.

Say Derrick Rose comes into the league and in his first year has the best finals game since MJ to close out the Lakers. Durant wins the next year chip but Ibaka not Westbrook, wins finals MVP. The next year Rose wins his second Fmvp. Durant would be in the same boat he is in as he is now with Lebron. This scenario covers the first four years with Bird/Magic.

The next year Rose makes it to the finals - got swept tho but not by the team that swept Durants team in the first round. More props to Ros

[ThePhantomCreep]

The stats prove that bird is better
They most certainly do not.

Oh and, 1979-1983 Magic > 1989-1983 Bird especially when you factor postseason play

[SHAQisGOAT]

They most certainly do not.

Oh and, 1979-1983 Magic > 1989-1982 Bird especially when you factor postseason play

2 posts, basically registered to say this :lol clear alt :roll:

Gonna make me another account to say Bird > Magic :rolleyes:

[SHAQisGOAT]

@ dankok8
I think you meant, links that prove Magic> Bird before '87?

Anyways...

I have no personal agenda here as a lifelong Magic fan who feels that his overall ranking is higher than Bird's, but I would like to see a response to your request in bold. Not particularly from Laz, but anyone. In my 80's Bird GOAT conversation thread, (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241244), there were several declarations between '84 and '88 that Bird may have been the GOAT. Admittedly I haven't look as diligently, but I haven't found the same reports for Magic prior to 1987.

They/he's hiding now, making alt's too :oldlol:

[KevinNYC]

15/15/7 huh??? Its late but I know that's wrong? Wilt 18/28/8? Jordan 41/8/6 Duncan 24/17/5 Shaq 33/16/5 Magic 26/8/13 Lebron 28/10/7 and I know they all had much better shooting percentages. Are you saying with a bare minimum of 7 assist?

It was definitely a major let down in the finals to have Cedric Maxwell be the man. I just don't see Cedric Maxwell winning it that in any other year. He sucked.

I was imprecise. The following is Unequaled since 1981.
In an NBA Finals, averaging
15 or more points,
15 or more rebounds
7 or more assists

I've posted elsewhere on this board about this, but his coach was surprised Maxwell won it, he expected it to be Bird especially as he was clearly the best player in the closeout game. Maxwell didn't have 6 good games either. He also had a couple of off nights. So he ended up average about 17 ppg for the series not a giant advance over Bird's 15ppg. Field goal percentage was the only place Maxwell was clearly better than Bird that series. In my mind that's just not enough difference to be ahead of Bird's other stats. Bird also had 2.3 steals a game that series. He shot poorly, but his all around play was pretty darn high.

Here are the players who averaged more than 15 rebounds in the NBA finals series since 1981.

Moses Malone 16.3 1981
Larry Bird 15.3 1981
Moses Malone 18.3 1983
Shaq 16.3 2000
Shaq 15.8 2001
Duncan 17.0 2003

It's only happened 5 times in 32 years. It's a rare thing. Of course, of those guys Bird is the only lead both teams in assists.

Where do you get this idea that Maxwell sucked? Between 79 and 81 in both field goal percentage and offensive rating he was

1
1
3

In win shares those years, he was
5
3
7

He was a very good offensive rebounder, great around the basket and had some clutch moments. Definitely the kind of guy any team could use.

[Pointguard]

Where do you get this idea that Maxwell sucked? Between 79 and 81 in both field goal percentage and offensive rating he was

1
1
3

In win shares those years, he was
5
3
7

He was a very good offensive rebounder, great around the basket and had some clutch moments. Definitely the kind of guy any team could use.


That's something else Magic didn't get credit for in his first 4 years, Magic was a superior offensive rebounder to Bird (or Maxwell) RS or postseason. That's something that escaped these talks as well.

Maxwell was a 14 and 5 guy most of his career that only took very safe shots. He wasn't a skilled player. I"ll give you useful but finals MVP is a bit crazy.

[dankok8]

Kind of agree with KevinNYC that Bird should have gotten the '81 Finals MVP. He was fighting peak Moses virtually even on the boards (15.3 vs 16.3) and led both teams in assists (7.0) and steals (2.3) by a large margin.

Series Stats

Bird: 15.3 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 7.0 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.5 bpg on 41.9 %FG/46.0 %TS
Maxwell: 17.7 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.2 spg, 1.0 bpg on 56.8 %FG/61.1 %TS

Stats in Wins

Bird: 16.0 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 8.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg on 43.8 %FG/46.5 %TS
Maxwell: 19.0 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 0.3 spg, 1.3 bpg on 57.7 %FG/62.5 %TS

But let's break it down game-by-game shall we?

Game 1 Bird: 18/21/9 on 52.9% Maxwell: 10/9/5 on 33.3%

Game 2 Bird: 19/21/3 on 44.4% Maxwell: 6/4/2 on 37.5%

Game 3 Bird: 8/13/10 on 27.3% Maxwell: 19/10/0 on 56.3%

Game 4 Bird: 8/12/7 on 27.3% Maxwell: 24/14/1 on 64.3%

Game 5 Bird: 12/12/8 on 31.3% Maxwell: 28/15/3 on 76.9%

Game 6 Bird: 26/13/5 on 55.0% Maxwell: 19/5/6 on 63.6%

Looking at the overall statline Bird easily bests Maxwell in Game 1, 2, and 6. Even in Game 3 the gap isn't big considering Larry's all-around play with 10 assists and 5 steals. And he only took 11 shots after all. The only Boston win where Maxwell was clearly better is in Game 5 and it was a pivotal game.

Ultimately it's not a travesty or anything. Cedric deserved it but Bird could have easily gotten it and deserved it as well. Bird probably slightly more if you ask me...

[SHAQisGOAT]

I was imprecise. The following is Unequaled since 1981.
In an NBA Finals, averaging
15 or more points,
15 or more rebounds
7 or more assists

I've posted elsewhere on this board about this, but his coach was surprised Maxwell won it, he expected it to be Bird especially as he was clearly the best player in the closeout game. Maxwell didn't have 6 good games either. He also had a couple of off nights. So he ended up average about 17 ppg for the series not a giant advance over Bird's 15ppg. Field goal percentage was the only place Maxwell was clearly better than Bird that series. In my mind that's just not enough difference to be ahead of Bird's other stats. Bird also had 2.3 steals a game that series. He shot poorly, but his all around play was pretty darn high.

Here are the players who averaged more than 15 rebounds in the NBA finals series since 1981.

Moses Malone 16.3 1981
Larry Bird 15.3 1981
Moses Malone 18.3 1983
Shaq 16.3 2000
Shaq 15.8 2001
Duncan 17.0 2003

It's only happened 5 times in 32 years. It's a rare thing. Of course, of those guys Bird is the only lead both teams in assists.

Where do you get this idea that Maxwell sucked? Between 79 and 81 in both field goal percentage and offensive rating he was

1
1
3

In win shares those years, he was
5
3
7

He was a very good offensive rebounder, great around the basket and had some clutch moments. Definitely the kind of guy any team could use.

:applause:

Not just since 1981, I believe, but rather ever, which is even crazier.


Kind of agree with KevinNYC that Bird should have gotten the '81 Finals MVP. He was fighting peak Moses virtually even on the boards (15.3 vs 16.3) and led both teams in assists (7.0) and steals (2.3) by a large margin.

Series Stats

Bird: 15.3 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 7.0 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.5 bpg on 41.9 %FG/46.0 %TS
Maxwell: 17.7 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.2 spg, 1.0 bpg on 56.8 %FG/61.1 %TS

Stats in Wins

Bird: 16.0 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 8.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg on 43.8 %FG/46.5 %TS
Maxwell: 19.0 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 0.3 spg, 1.3 bpg on 57.7 %FG/62.5 %TS

But let's break it down game-by-game shall we?

Game 1 Bird: 18/21/9 on 52.9% Maxwell: 10/9/5 on 33.3%

Game 2 Bird: 19/21/3 on 44.4% Maxwell: 6/4/2 on 37.5%

Game 3 Bird: 8/13/10 on 27.3% Maxwell: 19/10/0 on 56.3%

Game 4 Bird: 8/12/7 on 27.3% Maxwell: 24/14/1 on 64.3%

Game 5 Bird: 12/12/8 on 31.3% Maxwell: 28/15/3 on 76.9%

Game 6 Bird: 26/13/5 on 55.0% Maxwell: 19/5/6 on 63.6%

Looking at the overall statline Bird easily bests Maxwell in Game 1, 2, and 6. Even in Game 3 the gap isn't big considering Larry's all-around play with 10 assists and 5 steals. And he only took 11 shots after all. The only Boston win where Maxwell was clearly better is in Game 5 and it was a pivotal game.

Ultimately it's not a travesty or anything. Cedric deserved it but Bird could have easily gotten it and deserved it as well. Bird probably slightly more if you ask me...

:applause:

Max was pretty good, consistent with his scoring and also clutch but seriously that FMVP belongs to Larry. Difference of 3 ppg is not really big, Cornbread with much higher FG% even though Bird was above in FT%, still everything else just goes to Bird by a clear margin, plus he killed the reigning MVP in the ECF so most attention on him (that's why the big assists also even with Tiny handling the ball), and he came through in the final game6, very clutch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7jCwThefw4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoXOAs4Gz5A

[ThePhantomCreep]

Doesn't really matter if Maxwell won Finals MVP, Bird was the leader of the team and should get credit for it.

Having said that, Magic was clearly the better Finals performer.

[KevinNYC]

But let's break it down game-by-game shall we?

Game 1 Bird: 18/21/9 on 52.9% Maxwell: 10/9/5 on 33.3%
Celtics win by 3

Game 2 Bird: 19/21/3 on 44.4% Maxwell: 6/4/2 on 37.5%
Celtic lose by 2

Game 3 Bird: 8/13/10 on 27.3% Maxwell: 19/10/0 on 56.3%
Boston wins by 23

Game 4 Bird: 8/12/7 on 27.3% Maxwell: 24/14/1 on 64.3%
Boston loses by 5

Game 5 Bird: 12/12/8 on 31.3% Maxwell: 28/15/3 on 76.9%
Boston wins by 29

Game 6 Bird: 26/13/5 on 55.0% Maxwell: 19/5/6 on 63.6%
Boston wins by 11.

Looking at the overall statline Bird easily bests Maxwell in Game 1, 2, and 6. Even in Game 3 the gap isn't big considering Larry's all-around play with 10 assists and 5 steals. And he only took 11 shots after all. The only Boston win where Maxwell was clearly better is in Game 5 and it was a pivotal game.


If Maxwell had 6 solid games, I would have no problem saying they picked the right guy, but he didn't. My argument is the only way you can pick Maxwell is if you go solely by points/shooting and ignore the other aspects of the game. You could argue that if in game 2 Maxwell had his average game the Celtics go up 2-0

So Bird basically had three really poor shooting games. However, two of these are near triple doubles and the Celtics went 2-1 in them. Also these wins were blowouts where the Celtics won by their defense. These two wins were also Maxwell's big games. He scored a lot because the Celtics fast break was working.

Remember this was before "triple-double" was a common phrase and the standard for measuring a great all around game. Tweak Bird's stats a bit and he has 3 triple doubles in 6 games.

One extra assist in game 1.
Another made basket in game 3.
Two extra assists in game 5.

These are his bad games too.

I think the reason Maxwell won it, was

A. The voters valued scoring/shooting way more that other parts of the game
B. Maxwell performing this well as unusual as Bird shooting this badly. It was like they missed game 6 which was a big game for Bird and a close game until Bird put it away with a really nice run in the fourth.

Bird had a poor shooting series is true. Bird had a bad series is simply not true.

[KevinNYC]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1124491/3/index.htm

Article from 1981 on the Series.

[CelticBaller]

They most certainly do not.

Oh and, 1979-1983 Magic > 1989-1983 Bird especially when you factor postseason play
Yes they do, you don't have to be smart to know this, though you do need to wash off magics aids infested semen of your glasses

[ThePhantomCreep]

Yes they do, you don't have to be smart to know this, though you do need to wash off magics aids infested semen of your glasses

The OP's stats favor Magic by a clear margin. Crawl out of Bird's short shorts and take a look.

[Audio One]

Here's a good post by Fatal9 that covers Kareem's career in the 70's:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4986678&postcount=110

[LAZERUSS]

@ dankok8
I think you meant, links that prove Magic> Bird before '87?

Anyways...

I have no personal agenda here as a lifelong Magic fan who feels that his overall ranking is higher than Bird's, but I would like to see a response to your request in bold. Not particularly from Laz, but anyone. In my 80's Bird GOAT conversation thread, (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241244), there were several declarations between '84 and '88 that Bird may have been the GOAT. Admittedly I haven't look as diligently, but I haven't found the same reports for Magic prior to 1987.

In their first four years in the league together, almost every media outlet had the two rated about even...except in the MVP balloting. And again, the reason for that? Magic's reputation for supposedly getting Westhead fired (and I debunked that myth here a while back), and two, KAJ taking votes from Magic. And, you could add Magic's injury in 80-81, which set him back, as well.

In any case, I just spent about five minutes googling Magic, and came up with these three. Take them anyway you want, but at that time, the two were considered near equals...

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2013/04/wayback-machine-part-viii-1982-complete.html


5) Bird's CHPB profile began with these words: "Belongs in a higher league...Absolutely the best all-around player in the universe. Could carry the Celtics on a dynasty trip." Despite that lofty praise, a good case could be made that--contrary to the way things were reported by many media outlets at the time--Bird never equaled or surpassed Magic Johnson: Johnson beat Bird head to head in the 1979 NCAA Championship Game, Johnson won Finals MVP honors as a rookie--guiding the Lakers to victory over a Philadelphia team that routed Bird's Celtics 4-1 in the Eastern Conference Finals--and Johnson ultimately topped Bird five to three in NBA championships, including the league's first back to back titles since Bill Russell retired. Ironically, by the time that Johnson finally received his due vis a vis Bird a new star eclipsed both of them: Michael Jordan won the much heralded MJ versus MJ showdown in the 1991 Finals, bested Johnson's repeat accomplishment by leading the Bulls to a three-peat and then came out of retirement to win a second three-peat.


http://www.nytimes.com/1982/05/09/sports/magic-johnson-learns-lesson.html


In his third pro season, the 22-year-old Johnson has been thinking and playing as well as anyone else. He became only the third player to attain 700 rebounds and 700 assists in a season. For the third consecutive year, he led the league in steals, averaging 2.67. Now 6-9, he was the league's best forward in rebounding, grabbing 9.63 a game, good for 11th place over all. Magical Statistics

And in the playoffs, he has been, well, magical. In the Lakers' four-game semifinal sweep of Phoenix, he had three ''triple doubles'' - that is, he attained double figures in scoring, rebounds and assists in three games. He failed to make a sweep, getting nine assists in the other game.

The Lakers open the four-of-seven-game Western Conference final against the San Antonio Spurs here Sunday. If Johnson is not universally considered the best all-round player in the game, he is at least No. 1-A, behind Larry Bird. But the kind of swift fall from the heights that he had once experienced in his backyard happened to him earlier this season. On Nov. 18, he made the mistake of thinking, for an ill-timed public moment, that he and Paul Westhead, then the coach, could not work together.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1004649/1/index.htm

[QUOTE]They would never be even again. Magic's talents were peaking, and he was assuming more and more of the offensive burden for the Lakers. In 1984-85 he scored 37 points to outdo Bird's 33 as the Lakers won the second L.A.-Boston meeting of the season 117-111. That was a prelude to the Finals rematch in the spring.

The Celtics won the first game of that series 148-114, but the humbled Lakers rallied around their captain, Abdul-Jabbar, to win Game 2, in Boston. After the teams split Games 3 and 4, Kareem had 36 points and Magic contributed 26 points and 17 assists as L.A. took control of the playoffs with a 120-111 victory at the Forum. The Lakers regained the championship in Boston, beating the Celtics 111-100 with series MVP Abdul-Jabbar scoring 29 and Magic turning in a triple double of 14 points, 10 rebounds and 14 assists.

The next season was a triumph for Bird and a frustration for Magic. Boston had 67 regular-season victories and then won the championship by defeating Houston in six games. Bird was now even with Magic where it counted most: Each had won three championships in his seven years in the league. The Lakers had been upset by the Rockets in the Western Conference finals, and Riley speculated aloud that perhaps Los Angeles fans should start lowering their sights.

That judgment turned out to be premature, for the 1986-87 Lakers turned out to be one of the best teams of all time. Magic, unquestionably the league's best player, won the first of his three MVP awards. "For overall contributions, nobody else was close," said Bird. He would know; he had three regular-season MVP titles of his own.

Among Magic's sweet triumphs in the 1986-87 season was the victory that snapped a 38-game Celtic winning streak at Boston Garden. Even more spectacular was a February meeting between the two teams in Los Angeles. Entering the game, the Celtics and the Lakers had identical records (37-12). L.A. rallied from a 17-point third-quarter deficit behind Magic's heroics (39 points, seven rebounds and 10 assists) to sweep the season series. "I don't remember many regular-season games," Riley says, "but I remember that one. I can still see Magic coming out of a spin for a key three-point play and then running by our bench with a big grin."

The Lakers were prohibitive favorites in the 1987 Finals, both because they were so good and because the Celtics were plagued by injuries and lacked depth. And, indeed, it turned out to be a Magic show from start to finish. He began with 29 points and 13 assists in L.A.'s opening-game victory and followed that with 22 points and 20 assists as the Lakers went up 2-0. He added 32 points in Game 3, even though the Celtics pulled out a victory. Then came that epic fourth game.

The hook shot that won the game was Magic's newest trick. He had been working on it with Abdul-Jabbar and called it his "junior, junior skyhook." One of the hallmarks of the Magic-Bird rivalry was the way each expanded his game over the years. Magic added a hook and lengthened the range on his set shot

[LAZERUSS]

Kind of agree with KevinNYC that Bird should have gotten the '81 Finals MVP. He was fighting peak Moses virtually even on the boards (15.3 vs 16.3) and led both teams in assists (7.0) and steals (2.3) by a large margin.

Series Stats

Bird: 15.3 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 7.0 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.5 bpg on 41.9 %FG/46.0 %TS
Maxwell: 17.7 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.2 spg, 1.0 bpg on 56.8 %FG/61.1 %TS

Stats in Wins

Bird: 16.0 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 8.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg on 43.8 %FG/46.5 %TS
Maxwell: 19.0 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 0.3 spg, 1.3 bpg on 57.7 %FG/62.5 %TS

But let's break it down game-by-game shall we?

Game 1 Bird: 18/21/9 on 52.9% Maxwell: 10/9/5 on 33.3%

Game 2 Bird: 19/21/3 on 44.4% Maxwell: 6/4/2 on 37.5%

Game 3 Bird: 8/13/10 on 27.3% Maxwell: 19/10/0 on 56.3%

Game 4 Bird: 8/12/7 on 27.3% Maxwell: 24/14/1 on 64.3%

Game 5 Bird: 12/12/8 on 31.3% Maxwell: 28/15/3 on 76.9%

Game 6 Bird: 26/13/5 on 55.0% Maxwell: 19/5/6 on 63.6%

Looking at the overall statline Bird easily bests Maxwell in Game 1, 2, and 6. Even in Game 3 the gap isn't big considering Larry's all-around play with 10 assists and 5 steals. And he only took 11 shots after all. The only Boston win where Maxwell was clearly better is in Game 5 and it was a pivotal game.

Ultimately it's not a travesty or anything. Cedric deserved it but Bird could have easily gotten it and deserved it as well. Bird probably slightly more if you ask me...

Of course. If we were to ask YOU.

BTW, the voting was 6-1 for Maxwell in that Finals.

[dankok8]

In their first four years in the league together, almost every media outlet had the two rated about even...except in the MVP balloting. And again, the reason for that? Magic's reputation for supposedly getting Westhead fired (and I debunked that myth here a while back), and two, KAJ taking votes from Magic. And, you could add Magic's injury in 80-81, which set him back, as well.

In any case, I just spent about five minutes googling Magic, and came up with these three. Take them anyway you want, but at that time, the two were considered near equals...

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2013/04/wayback-machine-part-viii-1982-complete.html




http://www.nytimes.com/1982/05/09/sports/magic-johnson-learns-lesson.html




http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1004649/1/index.htm



And virtually no one had Bird higher from 86-87 on.

But I have never been a fan of opinions or quotes because you can find them until the cows come home.

What we do KNOW, however, that in their post-season play from '80 thru '84, Magic was CLEARLY the better player. And, even in the middle of Bird's MVP "three-peat", Magic was the better post-season player, and clearly better in their H2H Finals. Again, Bird was the FIFTH best player on the floor in the '85 Finals, and was not even the best player on his own team.

And from '87 on, Magic just blew Bird away.

In terms of career, H2H's, rings, post-season play, you name it...Magic was the better of the two.

Nowhere in those quotes does anyone say Magic > Bird. In one of the posts they say Magic is either the best all-around player or #1 A. to Bird. Pippen was considered the best all-around player in the 90's. Was he better than Jordan?

Sorry but those posts aren't any kind of evidence.


Of course. If we were to ask YOU.

BTW, the voting was 6-1 for Maxwell in that Finals.


Maxwell getting it isn't a travesty by any means but Bird could have won it too. He had great impact overall.

[LAZERUSS]

Nowhere in those quotes does anyone say Magic > Bird. In one of the posts they say Magic is either the best all-around player or #1 A. to Bird. Pippen was considered the best all-around player in the 90's. Was he better than Jordan?

Sorry but those posts aren't any kind of evidence.



Maxwell getting it isn't a travesty by any means but Bird could have won it too. He had great impact overall.

Again...a perspective from a supposed "Magic" fan...

[dankok8]

Again...a perspective from a supposed "Magic" fan...

Just because I love Magic doesn't mean I have to hate or underrate Bird.

[LAZERUSS]

Incidently, for the clowns who somehow believe that Magic was not a capable scorer...

how about this stretch from his 86-87 season...

31
34
25
17 (oh wait...35 minutes, 9 FGAs, and 18 assists)
34
38
46
30
28
4 (29 minutes, 4 FGAs, 18 assists, in a 140-104 win)
32
26
20
25
38
26
31
26
42
19
29
25

Take away those two games in which he obviously didn't even try...

and in those 20 games...

30.5 ppg, (and BTW, he averaged 11 apg in those 20 games, as well.)

[Round Mound]

1979-80 to 1985-86 Bird > Magic
1986-87 to 1991-92 Magic > Bird

[LAZERUSS]

Just because I love Magic doesn't mean I have to hate or underrate Bird.

Well, just so you know, even Bill Simmons, who is unabashedly a CELTIC HOMER and BIRD LOVER, (and yes, a complete idiot) has Magic ranked higher than Larry.

That should really tell you something...

[LAZERUSS]

1979-80 to 1985-86 Bird > Magic
1986-87 to 1991-92 Magic > Bird

Not if you include post-season play. Then it swings dramatically into Magic's favor, even in the '80 to '86 seasons...

[dankok8]

Incidently, for the clowns who somehow believe that Magic was not a capable scorer...

how about this stretch from his 86-87 season...

31
34
25
17 (oh wait...35 minutes, 9 FGAs, and 18 assists)
34
38
46
30
28
4 (29 minutes, 4 FGAs, 18 assists, in a 140-104 win)
32
26
20
25
38
26
31
26
42
19
29
25

Take away those two games in which he obviously didn't even try...

and in those 20 games...

30.5 ppg, (and BTW, he averaged 11 apg in those 20 games, as well.)

86-87 Magic was MILES BETTER as a half-court scorer than young Magic though. We know 87-90 Magic could light it up almost on Bird level. We're talking about 80-86 Magic here in this thread.

Plus there is rebounding and defense where Bird has a major edge and you seem to completely disregard it.

[LAZERUSS]

86-87 Magic was MILES BETTER as a half-court scorer than young Magic though. We know 87-90 Magic could light it up almost on Bird level. We're talking about 80-86 Magic here in this thread.

Plus there is rebounding and defense where Bird has a major edge and you seem to completely disregard it.

Hmmm....

The OP says Bird vs Magic...COMPLETE H2H's.

And again, factor in their post-season play...and the scorecard changes dramatically...

Bird in '81 (and barely), '84 (again, Magic was one blown Worthy pass away from winning yet another ring), and a solid "win" in '86.

The rest of their careers?

Magic in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, and '91...and nearly all of them were pretty solid "wins."

And we KNOW that a YOUNG Magic was capable of 40+ point games, as well. Hell, he not only had a Finals game of 42, and in his ROOKIE season, but even coming back from an injury in '81 (and rusty...as the playoffs would prove)...games of 41 and 33...and earlier in that very limited same season...three more of 30+.

Instead of shot-jacking and ball-hogging, though, Magic concentrated on making his team's better. He certainly proved he could score 30 ppg had he been tasked to do so.

[Pointguard]

Well, just so you know, even Bill Simmons, who is unabashedly a CELTIC HOMER and BIRD LOVER, (and yes, a complete idiot) has Magic ranked higher than Larry.

That should really tell you something...

Magic and Bird race was proclaimed by them, themselves by rings and the media gobbled that up. So when Bird evened up the race it was pretty much even. However, once the Celtics got the second pick in 86 Peter Vescey was sure that Bird had won the battle and coined Larry Bird, "Larry Legend." When Magic was ahead, the whole time before '86 nobody said anything. Then Len Bias died and Magic won again the next year with a team that made all teams before or after look selfish. It was the best team work any team ever exhibited and it wasn't close. The crowning of Magic never happened even when he went three up on Bird (college as well) that I could recall.

The media didn't want to crown Magic. I just don't think Jordan would have been crowned after his second ring if Bird had won the Magic battle. There were other things in play that I don't think people would understand now.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic and Bird race was proclaimed by them, themselves by rings and the media gobbled that up. So when Bird evened up the race it was pretty much even. However, once the Celtics got the second pick in 86 Peter Vescey was sure that Bird had won the battle and coined Larry Bird, "Larry Legend." When Magic was ahead, the whole time before '86 nobody said anything. Then Len Bias died and Magic won again the next year with a team that made all teams before or after look selfish. It was the best team work any team ever exhibited and it wasn't close. The crowning of Magic never happened even when he went three up on Bird (college as well) that I could recall.

The media didn't want to crown Magic. I just don't think Jordan would have been crowned after his second ring if Bird had won the Magic battle. There were other things in play that I don't think people would understand now.

I vividly recall the almost daily articles which had the two almost evenly divided in the early 80's. Again, Magic's injury in '81, and his coach's subsequent firing really hurt him in the public perception. But, I think the consensus was that the two were basically even, until Bird had his "three-peat" MVPs.

After that, even Bird, himself, conceded that Magic was the better player. And the Bird fans love to mention his injuries, but it was clearly evident, even in the 87-88, which was arguably Bird's greatest season, that Magic was already ranked ahead of him. And then when Bird folded his tent against the Pistons in the playoffs, and Magic dominated that same Piston team in the Finals...well, Bird was a dot in Magic's rear-view mirror from that point on.

If anything...it was CLOSE between '80 and '86, and after that, a runaway for Magic.

[Round Mound]

Not if you include post-season play. Then it swings dramatically into Magic's favor, even in the '80 to '86 seasons...

Not When Kareem is the Best Player & Captain in the Lakers 79-85.

Lets Not Forget McHale Was a Sixthman 80-85.

[Pointguard]

86-87 Magic was MILES BETTER as a half-court scorer than young Magic though. We know 87-90 Magic could light it up almost on Bird level. We're talking about 80-86 Magic here in this thread.

Plus there is rebounding and defense where Bird has a major edge and you seem to completely disregard it.

Rebounding was just a matter of where they were on the court. Magic was a better offensive rebounder the first four years. Bird was the better defensive rebounder because PF's back then stayed around the basket and few were skilled scorers.

Lets give Bird defense*. Magic's edge on control of the game equaled that out.

Magic was the better passer. Was more efficient. And was more consistent.


*Bird got 2nd team all defense one year over Cedric Maxwell who guarded his man very well, and then in '84 Bird took McHales spot on the second team - remind you McHale guarded Bird's counterpart very well as did Maxwell before him. Not unlike some of Kobe's horrific choices to all defensive teams decades later, Bird had them and it was disrespectful to Maxwell and McHale.

[LAZERUSS]

Not When Kareem is the Best Player & Captain in the Lakers 79-85.

Lets Not Forget McHale Was a Sixthman 80-85.

Kareem was arguably LA's best player in '80 (and, again, when he was out in game six of the Finals, Magic put up a 42-15-7 game.)

He was their best player in '81, when Magic missed 45 games.

But, from that point on, it was ALL Magic. And, again, take a look at their career games in which they played without the other. Magic had a FAR better record without Kareem, than the other way around.

And while Kareem was still an exceptional offensive player from '82-'86 (and of course, much of it was because of MAGIC BTW), we KNOW that Magic was certainly capable of having scored much more in those seasons.

And, don't forget, the REAL LEADER of those '80's Lakers teams was MAGIC. From DAY ONE.

[KevinNYC]

However, once the Celtics got the second pick in 86 Peter Vescey was sure that Bird had won the battle and coined Larry Bird, "Larry Legend."

That was as late as 1986? That surprises me.

Supposedly, Vescey also came up with Air Jordan.

[Round Mound]

Kareem was arguably LA's best player in '80 (and, again, when he was out in game six of the Finals, Magic put up a 42-15-7 game.)

He was their best player in '81, when Magic missed 45 games.

But, from that point on, it was ALL Magic :no: . And, again, take a look at their career games in which they played without the other. Magic had a FAR better record without Kareem, than the other way around.

And while Kareem was still an exceptional offensive player from '82-'86 (and of course, much of it was because of MAGIC BTW), we KNOW that Magic was certainly capable of having scored much more in those seasons.

And, don't forget, the REAL LEADER of those '80's Lakers teams was MAGIC. From DAY ONE.

[B]:no: Why Wasn

[Pointguard]

Not When Kareem is the Best Player & Captain in the Lakers 79-85.

Lets Not Forget McHale Was a Sixthman 80-85.
You haven't been reading the post... Magic was the franchise player on the team (management gave it to him, the coaches and players knew it. Only people in denial couldn't see it). Magic had total control of the team and was the decision maker and coach on the floor. If you think it was Kareem's team you never seen them play. The team missed Magic more than it missed Kareem as seen by their record without one of the players. Magic could fill in for Kareem and add to Kareem's role at the most important of times.

From '81 on McHale was getting 29 minutes per game sharing duties with Maxwell guarding Bird's man. In two of the three finals in the time period you mentioned '85 and '81, two out of the three finals Bird wasn't their best player - one was a sixth man and the other never had a shot at an allstar selection if 10 forwards caught a bad flu.

[Pointguard]

That was as late as 1986? That surprises me.

Supposedly, Vescey also came up with Air Jordan.

No Vescey was in his prime when Jordan got drafted. His every other day post columns were probably synchronized with Jordan but he was around for awhile before that.

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]:no: Why Wasn

[Round Mound]

[B]Nobody is saying that Magic wasn

[ThePhantomCreep]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]:no: Why Wasn

[KevinNYC]

No Vescey was in his prime when Jordan got drafted. His every other day post columns were probably synchronized with Jordan but he was around for awhile before that.

I didn't mean Vescey. Given how automatically you think of the nickname Larry Legend when you think of Bird these days, I was surprised it wasn't thought of until 1996.

[ThePhantomCreep]

1979-80 to 1985-86 Bird > Magic
1986-87 to 1991-92 Magic > Bird

More like...

80 Magic > Bird
81 Bird > Magic
82 Magic > Bird
83-86 Bird > Magic
87 Magic > Bird
88 Bird > Magic
89-91 Magic > Bird

They're tied as players, but Magic has a bit more in the way of accolades. He was also elite from year one to year twelve. Bird's skill was always elite, but his body wasn't past 32.

[havoc33]

I think some of you in this discussion is trying way too hard to convince others that you are right, although you seem to forget that these debates are always subjective, there is no final answer. You can talk all you want, but your opinion won't be more worth than anyone else's. If someone says Bird is a better player than Magic, you simply have to accept that opinion, especially since the general consensus is that it is relatively close between the two players anyway.

I for one have Magic over Bird career wise, but I find Bird's peak to be the most impressive out of the two for sure. The fact that he managed to win three straight MVPs while Magic was also in his prime speaks volumes of his play.

[eliteballer]

Look at those head 2 head finals numbers:applause:

[dunksby]

Magic was not Lakers leader/main man/best player till 87 so it's not fair to compare Magic to Boston's go to guy.

[Asukal]

Jlauber spreading his disease everywhere... :facepalm

Btw good job on making everybody hate Wilt. :applause:

[dunksby]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]:no: Why Wasn

[colts19]

Bird was considered the greater player from '84 thru '86.

Magic was hurt in the MVP voting by two things. One, Kareem was taking votes from him, and two, his 80-81 regular season.

But, if you include post-season play, Magic was easily the better the player from '80 thru '83.

And then in the '85 Finals, Bird was the only the FIFTH best player on the floor in that series, and wasn't even the best player on his own team.

The reality was, Magic was a considerably better post-season player, outplayed Bird in their post-season series, and overall, had a greater career. Plain-and-simple.

The one thing where you are clearly wrong is Magic being the better player from 80 thru 83. Magic won the fmvp his first year due to one really all-time great game but kareem was and should have been the mvp.

Bird was by almost all measure the better player from 80 to 87. MVP votes ROY votes public perception all favored Bird and it wasn't even close.

When you are a all time great and you get drafted by a team with a all time great center, you should have a great career. Even when KAJ got older and it became Magic's team, he could still give you dominate moments in games and series that made a hugh impact.

[pudman13]

Why do people say Bird was better than Magic?

Because they watched them both play.

[LAZERUSS]

The one thing where you are clearly wrong is Magic being the better player from 80 thru 83. Magic won the fmvp his first year due to one really all-time great game but kareem was and should have been the mvp.

Bird was by almost all measure the better player from 80 to 87. MVP votes ROY votes public perception all favored Bird and it wasn't even close.

When you are a all time great and you get drafted by a team with a all time great center, you should have a great career. Even when KAJ got older and it became Magic's team, he could still give you dominate moments in games and series that made a hugh impact.

Absolutely NOT true. Not even close.

From '80 thru '83, Magic was CLEARLY the better POST-SEASON player. Bird repeatedly CHOKED in those post-seasons, while Magic was LEADING his team to THREE Finals, TWO titles, and TWO FMVPs. Oh, and he could carry a team to a clinching game win without Kareem, too.

I have said that Bird's PEAK was from '84-'86. Arguably a top-5 peak. However, Magic's PEAK, from '87 thru '89, was, worst case, VERY close. In fact, Magic outplayed Bird in the '85 Finals, while in Magic's Peak, he wiped the floor with Bird in '87.

Then, Bird's PRIME was from '84-'88. Magic's was from '85-'90. Now, Magic starts to pull away here. Even in MVPs, but Magic held a 4-3 edge in Finals, and a 3-2 edge in rings. And he was, quite simply, the better player.

Then, go to extended primes. Bird from '82-'88, while Magic's was from '85-'91. Magic just continues to pull away in every category at that point. Finally...CAREERs. Magic's '80-'91 just blows away Bird's '80-'92. Plain-and-simple. Magic was MUCH better in Bird's early career, than Bird was in Magic's later career.

Better H2H, better in post-season, better career.

Magic > Bird.

[colts19]

Absolutely NOT true. Not even close.

From '80 thru '83, Magic was CLEARLY the better POST-SEASON player. Bird repeatedly CHOKED in those post-seasons, while Magic was LEADING his team to THREE Finals, TWO titles, and TWO FMVPs. Oh, and he could carry a team to a clinching game win without Kareem, too.

I have said that Bird's PEAK was from '84-'86. Arguably a top-5 peak. However, Magic's PEAK, from '87 thru '89, was, worst case, VERY close. In fact, Magic outplayed Bird in the '85 Finals, while in Magic's Peak, he wiped the floor with Bird in '87.

Then, Bird's PRIME was from '84-'88. Magic's was from '85-'90. Now, Magic starts to pull away here. Even in MVPs, but Magic held a 4-3 edge in Finals, and a 3-2 edge in rings. And he was, quite simply, the better player.

Then, go to extended primes. Bird from '82-'88, while Magic's was from '85-'91. Magic just continues to pull away in every category at that point. Finally...CAREERs. Magic's '80-'91 just blows away Bird's '80-'92. Plain-and-simple. Magic was MUCH better in Bird's early career, than Bird was in Magic's later career.

Better H2H, better in post-season, better career.

Magic > Bird.

Magic had the better career, I agree. It was due to injuries to Bird. Once again you can have your opinion. The fact is at the time the clear consensus was that bird was the better player. ROY 63 to 3, MVP votes the first seven years Bird by a solar system.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic had the better career, I agree. It was due to injuries to Bird. Once again you can have your opinion. The fact is at the time the clear consensus was that bird was the better player. ROY 63 to 3, MVP votes the first seven years Bird by a solar system.

Both great players. And, I do respect your opinions.

:cheers:

[Champ]

Absolutely NOT true. Not even close.

From '80 thru '83, Magic was CLEARLY the better POST-SEASON player. Bird repeatedly CHOKED in those post-seasons, while Magic was LEADING his team to THREE Finals, TWO titles, and TWO FMVPs. Oh, and he could carry a team to a clinching game win without Kareem, too.

I have said that Bird's PEAK was from '84-'86. Arguably a top-5 peak. However, Magic's PEAK, from '87 thru '89, was, worst case, VERY close. In fact, Magic outplayed Bird in the '85 Finals, while in Magic's Peak, he wiped the floor with Bird in '87.

Then, Bird's PRIME was from '84-'88. Magic's was from '85-'90. Now, Magic starts to pull away here. Even in MVPs, but Magic held a 4-3 edge in Finals, and a 3-2 edge in rings. And he was, quite simply, the better player.

Then, go to extended primes. Bird from '82-'88, while Magic's was from '85-'91. Magic just continues to pull away in every category at that point. Finally...CAREERs. Magic's '80-'91 just blows away Bird's '80-'92. Plain-and-simple. Magic was MUCH better in Bird's early career, than Bird was in Magic's later career.

Better H2H, better in post-season, better career.

Magic > Bird.

Laz, I just can't take you seriously as being unbiased in this argument if you maintain that "Bird repeatedly choked" in the post-season between '80 and '83.

The fact remains that the Celtics simply do not win the '81 title without Larry Bird, who carried them through the Philly series and came up big when it mattered most against Houston in the Finals.

This is documented in print, on video, and by those who were there to witness it.

[knicksman]

So Chris bosh is better than pre-magic kareem yet bran was credited for the rings coz he made bosh a scrub while kareem a superstar again. LOL at these stat nerds. The fact is, kareem is contemplating retirement until Magic came to save his overrated ass. The only time kareem has the argument for being the man is his first ring in lakers. But we all knew that pure pgs can prolong the careers of scorers. JUst ask malone. And since kareems stats before magic is not anymore man-worthy then clearly its magics team from the get go.

[Young X]

Magic had the better career, I agree. It was due to injuries to Bird. Once again you can have your opinion. The fact is at the time the clear consensus was that bird was the better player. ROY 63 to 3, MVP votes the first seven years Bird by a solar system.Bird is 3 years older than Magic, of course he was better earlier on. Magic didn't hit his prime until the late 80's when he was 27+ like most players. The only years where both of their primes collided were '87 and '88 and Magic won a ring in both seasons with an MVP in the former (and beating Bird's team in the finals while outplaying him significantly).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I think it's pretty clear, that while both the 80's Lakers, and Celtics were stacked ... that overall Bird was working with less individual star talent. Also, he faced much tougher competition in his own conference. IMO he's the tougher, better basketball player.

Bird is even more versatile defensively across eras. Today he'd be a stretch PF. Who would Magic be able to guard?

Great playmaker, quarterback and passer while being ball dominant. Bird had great assist numbers considering he was playing out of the post, or on the wing.
Agreed. I'm a Magic fan, but I've always considered Bird more skillfull, and an overall BETTER basketball player. Hands down. Magic, suffice to say, took advantage of Bird's injuries (as he should have) and never looked back.

In a vacuum, they're about equal in the impact department, but Bird's intangibles i.e. his clutch play and skills give him the clear edge.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Agreed. I'm a Magic fan, but I've always considered Bird more skillfull, and an overall BETTER basketball player. Hands down. Magic, suffice to say, took advantage of Bird's injuries (as he should have) and never looked back.

In a vacuum, they're about equal in the impact department, but Bird's intangibles i.e. his clutch play and skills give him the clear edge.
:cheers:

[eliteballer]

Skills? Clutch play?

Magic was a better playoff performer, he was more versatile because of his ballhandling/speed/size combo that allowed him to play more roles/positions. He was a bigger matchup problem due to said versatility. He was more efficient. He could make an impact on D when needed, and even led the league in steals. Bird's got him in shooting but Magic was more efficient from the field, and could score in other ways(he could attack the paint in a way Bird couldn't).

[Pointguard]

Skills? Clutch play?

Magic was a better playoff performer, he was more versatile because of his ballhandling/speed/size combo that allowed him to play more roles/positions. He was a bigger matchup problem due to said versatility. He was more efficient. He could make an impact on D when needed, and even led the league in steals. Bird's got him in shooting but Magic was more efficient from the field, and could score in other ways(he could attack the paint in a way Bird couldn't).
This.

Magic could feature a player much better than anybody ever. He could could control the pace/tempo much better than anybody whoever played the game. Magic got teammates easy baskets better than anybody as well. His creativity for others is unmatched in the game as well. Ran the best break ever and could excel in the half court game as well.

[mehyaM24]

Agreed. I'm a Magic fan, but I've always considered Bird more skillfull, and an overall BETTER basketball player. Hands down. Magic, suffice to say, took advantage of Bird's injuries (as he should have) and never looked back.

In a vacuum, they're about equal in the impact department, but Bird's intangibles i.e. his clutch play and skills give him the clear edge.


I think it's pretty clear, that while both the 80's Lakers, and Celtics were stacked ... that overall Bird was working with less individual star talent. Also, he faced much tougher competition in his own conference. IMO he's the tougher, better basketball player.

Bird is even more versatile defensively across eras. Today he'd be a stretch PF. Who would Magic be able to guard?

Great playmaker, quarterback and passer while being ball dominant. Bird had great assist numbers considering he was playing out of the post, or on the wing.

well said fellas. magic is also one of my favorite players but I'm taking bird and i'm not even a celtics fan. let's see some categories....

- scoring: bird (magic could score great when he worked into it though)
- shooting: bird
- passing: magic (but bird was not far behind)
- rebounding: bird
- defense: bird
- making teammates better: equal
- clutch: bird (magic was still clutch)
- ball-handling: magic
- athleticism: magic
- post-game: bird (magic was also good)
- footwork: bird
- in-game iq: equal

all in all, i'm taking bird. magic as swish said already had an established hofer and a great team - both had amazing teams they made better though. as well, both revived the league but larry REVIVED a dying franchise. that's got to count for something.

they both had great accomplishments - but Bird faced far better competition in the east and NOBODY can deny that.

[Pointguard]

Agreed. I'm a Magic fan, but I've always considered Bird more skillfull, and an overall BETTER basketball player. Hands down. Magic, suffice to say, took advantage of Bird's injuries (as he should have) and never looked back.

In a vacuum, they're about equal in the impact department, but Bird's intangibles i.e. his clutch play and skills give him the clear edge.
Bird wasn't a better clutch player. That's false. Bird had two seasons where he was Big Time clutch in the post season. Magic had Four. And Magic played better ball in the finals and playoffs overall. Even during Bird's prime, it was very close - it wasn't close after '86. Bird was more skillful but to what effect? Magic's judgement was so much better he was significantly more efficient, which is the purpose of skill.

You have to give Dirk a lot of credit for his post season play and rightfully so. It matters. Dirk doesn't have hardly any great RS years. And many here consider him top three PF ever. That's how much PS matters.

I think it's pretty clear, that while both the 80's Lakers, and Celtics were stacked ... that overall Bird was working with less individual star talent. Also, he faced much tougher competition in his own conference. IMO he's the tougher, better basketball player.

Bird is even more versatile defensively across eras. Today he'd be a stretch PF. Who would Magic be able to guard?

Great playmaker, quarterback and passer while being ball dominant. Bird had great assist numbers considering he was playing out of the post, or on the wing.
Bird played with the best frontcourt ever. The Celtics were better defenders and had three solid rebounders. DJ was also a very clutch player. Magic shared PG duties for four years. He wasn't ball dominant those years and he was a better offensive rebounder than Bird those years as well.

Magic wasn't a bad defender. He could guard most SF's today and most PF's today. You know back in the day, in the finals, he was guarding Adrew Toney, Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars and Paxson. Now that's a good representation of today's type of play. And its not like he was getting burned by them.

[swagga]

lmao at all the jordan fans in this thread saying larry is better than magic just to prop their boy because magic has a solid case for GOAT :roll:

fck me I can't stand lazareus and his wilt dick slurping but the old man knows some basketball tbh. One might argue that he props magic to decrease kareem in order to increase wilt>kareem argument, but he dropped a dime with them stats and he provided some solid reasoning.

Magic was more versatile than bird, he played PG as a natural position, a lot of 2 in his early days, some 3, and did some heavy lifting at PF/C when needed. Furthermore, this board needs to understand that scoring != shooting, look at magic's TS&FG and look at bird's TS&FG, even when they went head to head. Not to mention magic's controlling the pace of the game and ability to actually guard multiple positions (bird was a scrappy sob but he wasn't such a good defender). The reality with magic's scoring is that magic could obviously score much more efficiently (as he proved it numerous times) but he did what the team needed to get a W.

Bird was also 3 years older and thus he hit his prime faster, but both players have careers of comparable length played out on stacked teams so the injury argument is bogus. If magic didn't get aids he'd probably play till '95/'9, but it didn't happen.

Also, the argument with the weaker conference is bogus. Look at magic's record and stats on the east coast trips. Look at what he did in the finals. It's the same troll argument today used in lebron vs durant, that's been used by your daddies 25 years ago when they was giving it to your mommies. Shit never changes in sport sons.

Just face reality: Magic was simply a better, more complete and versatile player that won more, including in the h2h. Both teams were stacked as fck.

[swagga]

also 13/14 assists means at least 26/28 easy points ... should be taken into account as offensive production.

[insidious301]

Agreed. I'm a Magic fan, but I've always considered Bird more skillfull, and an overall BETTER basketball player. Hands down. Magic, suffice to say, took advantage of Bird's injuries (as he should have) and never looked back.

In a vacuum, they're about equal in the impact department, but Bird's intangibles i.e. his clutch play and skills give him the clear edge.

Good points. Bird could shoot better, and could also get to the hole better. In my opinion, Bird was also a better passer, but Magic threw fastballs for quick two's, and would would push the ball up court hard, right in the center spot of floor -- this would give him three options (pass left, right, or in the middle). Due to Bird's shooting and volume scoring (more 40 and 50 point games) along with defense, I would say he had a more complete game, therefor the better player.

[Hands of Iron]

I think it's pretty clear, that while both the 80's Lakers, and Celtics were stacked ... that overall Bird was working with less individual star talent. Also, he faced much tougher competition in his own conference. IMO he's the tougher, better basketball player.

Bird is even more versatile defensively across eras. Today he'd be a stretch PF. Who would Magic be able to guard?

Great playmaker, quarterback and passer while being ball dominant. Bird had great assist numbers considering he was playing out of the post, or on the wing.

Bird is probably the least ball dominant superstar in the history of the NBA. That doesn't necessarily make him superior, but certainly... Unique. To be a consistent triple double threat in that sort of fashion. When people talk greatest passing forward of all-time it's a difficult comparison for me because his play style was just so drastically different from Lebron's. Obviously, he didn't possess the physical tools of a PG at his height, couldn't create the same way as far as penetrating and making a defense collapse on him before kicking out zip passes on a dime (well, he could and did but not at the same level consistently). His threat was quite different from the aforementioned and more 'stationary' based, but as far as literally creating assists that otherwise probably wouldn't be there through his vision and use of angles nobody else on the court could see, he's still the best for me. Far (far) less ball handling, far less indecisive and able to create and improvise on IQ and Instinct. He often got rid of the rock like a hot potato and made decisions that resulted in buckets in less than a split second. Flawless in terms of the more fundamental aspects.

An Elite Scorer at his peak. Probably the most lethal off the ball scoring threat ever, ATG pure shooter with unlimited range but nobody would mistake him for Reggie Miller. He could certainly take about anybody 1v1 and got some of the nastiest bites on his pump fakes that you'll ever see on film. Such was the respect his shooting touch demanded. Had a great post-game to boot. On top of that, you're getting 10 boards a game and someone who was an absolute pest for the opposition as far as team defense and ability to make game changing, impact plays in the biggest of games. Just a bad, bad mother****er who has to be in the conversation for Most Skilled Ever considering his athletic limitations compared to his contemporaries. There is simply no other way he could've done it and still be relevant today if not for his pure skill, iq and instincts.

[Hands of Iron]

Not sure why Bird's pass through the legs of Sikma is so famous.

"Oh, he couldn't do that to Greaaaat Defender."

Oh yea, it's a good thing you weren't betting your existence on it huh?

He did the same shit to Michael Cooper Here (http://youtu.be/0tbYj0Flg9k)

And Hakeem Olajuwon Here (http://youtu.be/ROWAj7pAeZM)

You guys just keep yapping your bullshit though.

[LeBird]

Agreed. I'm a Magic fan, but I've always considered Bird more skillfull, and an overall BETTER basketball player. Hands down. Magic, suffice to say, took advantage of Bird's injuries (as he should have) and never looked back.

In a vacuum, they're about equal in the impact department, but Bird's intangibles i.e. his clutch play and skills give him the clear edge.


This is an opinion I don't have a problem with. If you count their whole careers where Bird unfortunately gets injured; then I can accept opinions where Magic is rated ahead. Afterall, longevity and fitness counts. It depends how much you want to put on it IMO.

But I still think Bird was the better player. I still think Magic never really got to his level when Bird was fit. From 79-86, Magic never finished above Bird in the MVP voting. He finally got there in 87, but the next year (88), Bird took over him again as Jordan began his ascent.

If you had ended their careers at 88; I don't think it'd really even be close. Bird was already a serious GOAT contender; whereas Magic was a slight tier below - something like Kobe level. To his credit, he continued and established himself once Kareem faded and so he deserves that credit.

On the whole, when I look at it in the cold light; I just can't go past Larry anyway. He had all the disadvantages yet still made it competitive. If Bird was on the Lakers and Magic went to the Celtics; does anyone really think Bird wins less than Magic? I'm thinking more like 7 rings.

And just look at it in terms of basketball skills. Is there anything Magic did better than Bird than pass (and Larry himself is probably #2 only to Magic in that regard)? Shooter, passer, rebounder, defender, etc...Bird. And Bird got his without needing the ball that often. A player that efficient, that doesn't require that much ball contact to post those numbers is just unheard of. It's kind of mindblowing actually.


Bird is probably the least ball dominant superstar in the history of the NBA. That doesn't necessarily make him superior, but certainly... Unique. To be a consistent triple double threat in that sort of fashion. When people talk greatest passing forward of all-time it's a difficult comparison for me because his play style was just so drastically different from Lebron's. Obviously, he didn't possess the physical tools of a PG at his height, couldn't create the same way as far as penetrating and making a defense collapse on him before kicking out zip passes on a dime (well, he could and did but not at the same level consistently). His threat was quite different from the aforementioned and more 'stationary' based, but as far as literally creating assists that otherwise probably wouldn't be there through his vision and use of angles nobody else on the court could see, he's still the best for me. Far (far) less ball handling, far less indecisive and able to create and improvise on IQ and Instinct. He often got rid of the rock like a hot potato and made decisions that resulted in buckets in less than a split second. Flawless in terms of the more fundamental aspects.

An Elite Scorer at his peak. Probably the most lethal off the ball scoring threat ever, ATG pure shooter with unlimited range but nobody would mistake him for Reggie Miller. He could certainly take about anybody 1v1 and got some of the nastiest bites on his pump fakes that you'll ever see on film. Such was the respect his shooting touch demanded. Had a great post-game to boot. On top of that, you're getting 10 boards a game and someone who was an absolute pest for the opposition as far as team defense and ability to make game changing, impact plays in the biggest of games. Just a bad, bad mother****er who has to be in the conversation for Most Skilled Ever considering his athletic limitations compared to his contemporaries. There is simply no other way he could've done it and still be relevant today if not for his pure skill, iq and instincts.

I love this breakdown. It's absurd in how many ways Bird was an ATG talent.

He was an elite scorer - could go toe to toe with anyone. He was an elite rebounder - look at the series against Moses. He was an elite passer - him and Magic are still on a different level, to this day. He was an incredible team defender - just read RoundMound's breakdown and his defensive rating contribution.

On top of that freakish ability to be amazing at almost everything...he was clutch as ****. Maybe, probably, the clutchest ever.

But with injuries he was the unluckiest mofo ever too. And yet he still has an incredible resume.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird is probably the least ball dominant superstar in the history of the NBA. That doesn't necessarily make him superior, but certainly... Unique. To be a consistent triple double threat in that sort of fashion. When people talk greatest passing forward of all-time it's a difficult comparison for me because his play style was just so drastically different from Lebron's. Obviously, he didn't possess the physical tools of a PG at his height, couldn't create the same way as far as penetrating and making a defense collapse on him before kicking out zip passes on a dime (well, he could and did but not at the same level consistently). His threat was quite different from the aforementioned and more 'stationary' based, but as far as literally creating assists that otherwise probably wouldn't be there through his vision and use of angles nobody else on the court could see, he's still the best for me. Far (far) less ball handling, far less indecisive and able to create and improvise on IQ and Instinct. He often got rid of the rock like a hot potato and made decisions that resulted in buckets in less than a split second. Flawless in terms of the more fundamental aspects.

An Elite Scorer at his peak. Probably the most lethal off the ball scoring threat ever, ATG pure shooter with unlimited range but nobody would mistake him for Reggie Miller. He could certainly take about anybody 1v1 and got some of the nastiest bites on his pump fakes that you'll ever see on film. Such was the respect his shooting touch demanded. Had a great post-game to boot. On top of that, you're getting 10 boards a game and someone who was an absolute pest for the opposition as far as team defense and ability to make game changing, impact plays in the biggest of games. Just a bad, bad mother****er who has to be in the conversation for Most Skilled Ever considering his athletic limitations compared to his contemporaries. There is simply no other way he could've done it and still be relevant today if not for his pure skill, iq and instincts.


This is an opinion I don't have a problem with. If you count their whole careers where Bird unfortunately gets injured; then I can accept opinions where Magic is rated ahead. Afterall, longevity and fitness counts. It depends how much you want to put on it IMO.

But I still think Bird was the better player. I still think Magic never really got to his level when Bird was fit. From 79-86, Magic never finished above Bird in the MVP voting. He finally got there in 87, but the next year (88), Bird took over him again as Jordan began his ascent.

If you had ended their careers at 88; I don't think it'd really even be close. Bird was already a serious GOAT contender; whereas Magic was a slight tier below - something like Kobe level. To his credit, he continued and established himself once Kareem faded and so he deserves that credit.

On the whole, when I look at it in the cold light; I just can't go past Larry anyway. He had all the disadvantages yet still made it competitive. If Bird was on the Lakers and Magic went to the Celtics; does anyone really think Bird wins less than Magic? I'm thinking more like 7 rings.

And just look at it in terms of basketball skills. Is there anything Magic did better than Bird than pass (and Larry himself is probably #2 only to Magic in that regard)? Shooter, passer, rebounder, defender, etc...Bird. And Bird got his without needing the ball that often. A player that efficient, that doesn't require that much ball contact to post those numbers is just unheard of. It's kind of mindblowing actually.



I love this breakdown. It's absurd in how many ways Bird was an ATG talent.

He was an elite scorer - could go toe to toe with anyone. He was an elite rebounder - look at the series against Moses. He was an elite passer - him and Magic are still on a different level, to this day. He was an incredible team defender - just read RoundMound's breakdown and his defensive rating contribution.

On top of that freakish ability to be amazing at almost everything...he was clutch as ****. Maybe, probably, the clutchest ever.

But with injuries he was the unluckiest mofo ever too. And yet he still has an incredible resume.

:applause:



Not sure why Bird's pass through the legs of Sikma is so famous.

"Oh, he couldn't do that to Greaaaat Defender."

Oh yea, it's a good thing you weren't betting your existence on it huh?

He did the same shit to Michael Cooper Here (http://youtu.be/0tbYj0Flg9k)

And Hakeem Olajuwon Here (http://youtu.be/ROWAj7pAeZM)

You guys just keep yapping your bullshit though.

Making two all-time great defenders look like "fools"...

Sikma was a great defender, in his best days, though.
I've made my own list of DPOY's before it was awarded, reading articles, going over most stats, so on... And Jack was my choice in 1982 (even though he wasn't all-nba 1st, but that also happened afterwards)

[bizil]

With these two if could go either way. But offensively, Magic is the most versatile player of all time. I also think he's a bigger defensive matchup problem than Bird as well. Magic is also the greatest passer of all time and is still an alpha dog. And finally, Magic is more durable. So I'm fine with many saying Bird is better. But Magic is more of an anamoly who redefined his position more than any player did IN ANY SPORT. So peak wise i'm fine with people saying Bird. GOAT wise, (which is the defining measurement of a player) Magic HAS to be the answer!

[KevinNYC]

For me, I think if you look at individual skills Bird might be better, but if you look at impact on a team, a 6'8" point guard might change a team more than a 6'9" small forward who could play big or small.

The Showtime Lakers's identity was built around his skills on the break. And the fact, you absolutely had to put a man on him or else he would just right to rim.

[bizil]

For me, I think if you look at individual skills Bird might be better, but if you look at impact on a team, a 6'8" point guard might change a team more than a 6'9" small forward who could play big or small.

The Showtime Lakers's identity was built around his skills on the break. And the fact, you absolutely had to put a man on him or else he would just right to rim.

Well said! Skill for skill, Bird is better than Magic. Bird is arguably the most skilled offensive player of all time. But I think Magic is the most versatile offensive player of all time. The mismatches Magic created were insane. He was bigger than the PG's, SG's, and even most SF's. Plus he's likely the best passer of all time. Which was enhanced by his size.